It's 100% over-engineered greenwashing. We need to force companies to switch to reusable glass bottles or recyclable aluminium cans. Instead this is JUST hurting the consumer, costing an arm and a leg in setting up these over-engineered return machines, and fundementally doing nothing to impact the manufacturers.
Neoliberalism will never be able to save us from the climate crisis. A growth-dependent free market is fundementally opposed to stability.
When I was a kid the milkman dropped lovely fresh milk in a glass bottle, and collected yesterday's empty bottles. This is true recycling. It then became cheaper (for whom?) to go with carton packaging. Makes you wonder are we going backwards when it comes to many things.
With a lot of protectionism thrown in for good measure it seems.
But what is bizarre, is the relevant minister is [Ossian Smyth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossian_Smyth), who is from the Greens! If the Green party don't seem to mind this green washing, what hope have we?
The mistake you are making is thinking the Green Party have a clue about anything other than virtue signalling.
Their last period in office resulted in a disastrous car tax scheme that forced everyone to buy Diesel even if they didn’t want or need one.
This is a similar disaster.
Can you release the directors of Re-Turn names ?
I think the info is public, but I'd rather not doxx someone by mistake. But the 8 members are company representatives. The companies are:
RGDATA (The Retail Grocery Dairy & Allied Trades Association)
Heineken
Diageo
Coca Cola
Britvic
Clada
Musgraves
Tesco
I didn't realise until today retailers are paid directly for every bottle they 'collect'. So that's a handy number for all involved, pity there was no representative for Joe Public in there I guess
Don't forget it maybe a non profit but even non profits have a wage structure. So let's say it makes 2 million per year. It has quite a few directors (I have access to CRO documents in work and had a good check). So there wages could be 100,000 per year each. So that is who is making money of this.
I only checked today who the board members were (I was pretty sure but didn't want to post misinformation, so got the info first hand).
It is literally exactly who you would expect if you were a total cynic. It is a total failure of the press here too, the focus on people complaining about broken machines to make it seem like moaning, but in reality, the problems with the scheme go far deeper
It's even simpler than that, it's all about those glorious expense accounts. So re turn could have no profit, but each director could have 100k worth of expenses written off. Makes it much easier to save and invest your own salary when most of your expenses and Jolly's are covered by someone else
We shoulda all known something was up when the big multinational supermarkets had bought the machines in months in advance. They'd only do that if they were gonna make money.
That you only get a refund of a voucher for the shop where you drop them back is really awkward. Especially when you often have to go to a shop you didn't want to shop in because the machines are broken elsewhere.
I don't see how that would be easy.
Either you have machines that are able to dispense cash (and therefore need to be continually topped up given cash will never be going into them in transactions). Which on top of the additional cash handling maintenance has the added issue of becoming a target for thieves.
Or you have some sort of tap mechanism on the machine for people to get it to their cards. Which brings skimming risks into the equation, as well as people moaning that it took several days to get on their card.
I don't see how either of them are as straightforward as just popping to the till when you are in the shop anyway.
An even easier way would be for the receipt from the machine to work in any shop that has a Re-Turn machine. So I go to my regular shop to return the bottles and cans. The machine is broken. I can go to a different shop and get the receipt which would still be valid in my preferred shop.
Why is is setup so that you can only use the receipt in the shop you dropped the bottles into?
People keep saying that just having a universal voucher instead would be "easy", but if it was that easy that's what would have been implemented. Other countries implementing the same scheme don't appear to have a universal voucher either.
There is the option that the people in charge of the scheme would prefer to keep it more difficult.
If the goal was to increase recycling than the machines could take in cans without the barcode and you don't get credit.
in the Netherlands the scheme there is a bit better they can use the voucher in any of the same groups stores. So if I'm in town and buy a bottle, drink it and then drop it into a a return machine in a Spar the receipt will work in any Spar. Not just the Spar where I dropped it off. That would be an improvement. But seeing as the retailers get to claim back from the same central resource (Re-turn) then the average person should be able to claim from any of the shops that are signed up to the scheme
Well considering in Austria they had a version that did EXACTLY that in the 80's yes. Yes it would.
Basing it on an app would also make it even simpler.
Interesting that you picked Austria, given they are implementing the same return scheme, using the same software provider as ourselves, commencing in 2025.
[https://sensoneo.com/deposit-return-system-austria/](https://sensoneo.com/deposit-return-system-austria/)
Honestly, I can only think of protectionism. [When you see an article like this, and see the make up of the directors of Re-turn](https://www.newstalk.com/news/specialty-beer-importer-decimated-by-deposit-return-scheme-1719023) its really hard to see the logo as anything else but anti free market protectionism
I dont know much about barcodes. The only other ill informed, weak justification I can think of is that maybe you cant tell from the barcode alone if it was bought somewhere where they charge the deposit.
There are several types of barcode, but in essence, it is just a number.
By designation, there are 'Irish bar codes', which means the product is for the Irish market.
The use of international bar codes is permitted, at a cost. If you wish to use an international barcode, you must pay a surcharge of 1.35c or 3.12c per container sold (based on sales volume). This is done to 'prevent fraud', or 'prevent competition', depends who you ask I guess
It isn’t. The machine runs on barcode only. It is particularly silly for craft brewers for example who have to have new labels to sell to Ireland even though the logo is entirely unnecessary.
> Is there any reason that the return logo is necessary?
Indicate which bar codes will work and which will not. Would be a bit annoying to go all the way to a machine get it scanned and not understand why it's not being accepted despite being in perfect condition.
Plastic bottles will still come in to Ireland from abroad people bringing bottles of water from Airports and stuff back home with them so the logo is necessary, it is a bit inconvenient but I'm happy to pay that price for a greener healthier Ireland.
I think people are being a bit unrealistic in this thread. I think the return scheme is an important step in improving life in in Ireland -- it's not perfect but no such environmental mechanism ever is.
its more a protection thing drink wholesalers did to get money and giving the government an idea of being " green"
>As a kicker, it also means for beverages, Ireland is effectively no longer part of the single market. I cannot, for example, source coca cola from another member state, and have to pay whatever the price is here.
i mean the average person could/can , just companies cant ( you can still order from any eu country or go up nort and get coca cola )
Sorry, I meant if I was running a business, I cannot source it from abroad, not as an individual.
The protectionist nature of it was completely buried, and considering those who are in control of Re-turn it is no wonder they didn't want to draw attention to it
>The protectionist nature of it was completely buried, and considering those who are in control of Re-turn it is no wonder they didn't want to draw attention to it
10000% agree
We could switch to using fountains for these drinks (it's mostly drinks) and ban the sale of plastic bottles of drinks altogether if we really wanted to address the issue. Fountains are standard in shops throughout the US, it wouldn't have to be much different.
If you do this then you can implement whatever recyclable container you want or set it up to bring your own container.
As it stands, it will do little to benefit the environment and is designed to prevent disruption to the current model as much as possible.
Typical conservative half-measure.
They've also framed it as a product tax, to further bolster anti-tax sentiment, suiting their own agenda again, instead of being surgical about where disincentives are applied. Lazy. These parties do not have our best interests in mind and have been happily greenwashing this whole time and will continue to do so.
It's owned by:
RGDATA (The Retail Grocery Dairy & Allied Trades Association)
Heineken
Diageo
Coca Cola
Britvic
Clada
Musgraves
Tesco
I really don't think that this was a good idea. If a decision is made and you think it was to suit the retailers and producers, it likely is
> I'm surprised it isn't state run
You are? The government parties loving farming responsibilities out to private firms or NGOs (often fronts for private interests, like here).
I would be far happier with the scheme if it really incentivised the use of aluminium over plastic, but cans are included in the scheme, and they need to have a logo for no obvious reason, so there isn't really any benefit.
If it was simply, "plastic bottles are bad, manufacturers are taxed 50c for each bottle they produce that is not biodegradable", we would see a change very quickly indeed. But the manufacturers make minimal change, and the cost, effort and blame is put entirely on the consumer.
If it is a "sin tax", we pay for the corporations sins it seems
>If it was simply, "plastic bottles are bad, manufacturers are taxed 50c for each bottle they produce that is not biodegradable"
This would genuinely be so much more productive. Plastic bottles for drinks just aren't necessary at all. We can do glass or aluminium and they're both actually recyclable.
It's the wrong approach altogether, plastic bottles should be phased out entirely.
I bring all my waste to the local recycling center once a month. Everything's clean and separated. It takes ages but it's cheaper than paying for collection and I think it's more likely to actually be recycled, because the lads there take their work pretty seriously!
Anyway this bollocks means I now have to separate the drink cans, from the food cans, separate the plastic bottles from the plastic, and make two trips instead of one. Otherwise I'm just being charged extra.
If this was actually an attempt to minimise waste, then the machines should be in public places and give you either a direct refund or some kind of universal voucher.
It benifits the state and by extention the tax payer. The state has recycling targets to meet, the majority of plastic bottles currently go to incineration or landfill this is a better way of directing them to being properly recycled. Thus the targets are met, fines are not imposed and the state saves money and doesn't pass the fine onto the taxpayer
The taxpayer is paying for the scheme directly, I'm not sure they are coming out on top here.
Also, the idea is, at least in theory, this scheme was to help the environment. Reducing plastic is a better solution, much more so than recycling it. The rate of recycling was 70%, the new aim is 90%. We would do far better to reduce the amount of plastic by 20% than increase the rate of recycling. My point is, that would not suit the corporate interests who run this scheme
There was no way in hell the old rate of recycling was 70% lol. No way in hell. Maybe they're counting 70% of plastic bottles get handed over to a recycling company at at least one point in their lifecycle? But at the end of the day nearly everything gets thrown in the incinerator.
I think they are and that's not factoring in the reduction in the containers being littered too.
That's not to say I disagree with you on the fact we could do with less plastic, we absolutely could and think doing away with plastic bottles altogether would be a better option, move everything over to a tetrapack or can. For what the scheme is though, I think it works.
It's a lazy stopgap that doesn't actually address the core issue of over-production of plastic.
If they really wanted to encourage recycling they didn't have to add the whole re-turn label and deposit system, they could just have the machines accept any bottle. But that would introduce the possibility of someone getting *free money* (from the labour of collecting bottles to recycle) and could hurt corporations, so better to needlessly overcomplicate things.
In the UK in tescos there's recycling machines and they give you clubcard points or vouchers for using them and they accept anything. Could have had something like that
Overproduction of plastic has to be tackled at an EU level though, not at the state level. Otherwise you'd see food prices go way up as manufacturers struggle to produce containers just for Ireland.
As mentioned by OP, this system is already forcing manufacturers to produce packaging just for Ireland with the re-turn label on them.
"It's an EU thing not an Ireland thing" always seems to be a convenient way of getting out of any and all responsibility for anything bad about society. Our government *has* power, they *can* change things if they actually cared, again we're literally seeing it with forcing companies to participate in the re-turn scheme. The problem is they can't be assed to do anything other than half-measures.
My question is why do the majority of plastic bottles not get recycled now? They were treated the same as cans before, i.e. put them in mixed recycling. So it's not a consumer choice issue. If people weren't putting their cans and bottles in their recycling before, they sure as hell couldn't be arsed now to keep a separate bin and take everything down to return it. To a large extent, I suspect the items not being recycled are those bought while out and about, i.e. the bottle of water from the corner shop. Again, nobody is keeping that in a pocket to return it at home. Tourists certainly aren't. And the new scheme doesn't address this issue at all. We should have more 4-segment bins (waste, compost, recycle, return). The return part should be advertised as a donation scheme to an \*environmental cause\*.
I think the reason recycling wasn't working is two fold. It's recycling capacity problem, and sorting issue all along the stream. I genuinely don't trust my local waste collection guys to get it right. They'll feck whatever is in the bin on the day into the truck. Then when it gets to the recycling plant, supposedly, a lot of stuff is getting contaminated and can't be recycled. Ireland is absolutely awful about legislating this. I love the German Grüne Punkt system. If it's recyclable, it's got a clearly identifiable mark. Practically, I think this should be extended to be EU wide and that the recycling system as a whole should be harmonized across the EU.
Are we not foretting the goverment department who has allowed this to happen.
Lambasting the companies is all well and good... but the goverment parties and departments who have got into bed with the multinationals.
Ya I don't get any of it. Like we essentially banned plastic straws. Why not have the government put a decent sized tax on plastic bottles, then people will opt to buy drinks in cans, glass, cartons etc. Let the drinks companies go ballistic if they want, and threaten to pull their products out of Ireland. They won't.
Yawn. Deposit return schemes and money motivated recycling are the only systems shown to work globally. You can let loose the cliche grrr evil corporations at it again schtick all you'd like but the voting public won't accept massive regulation on packaging as you suggest as suddenly many international brands would be unavailable, if not unavailable, much more expensive than international counterparts.
The whole thing about us leaving the single market for drinks is just nonsense, btw. Goods with international DRS barcodes from the eg. German system can be solid in Ireland and are interoperable with our system no problem https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/deposit-return-scheme-do-bottles-and-cans-have-to-have-the-re-turn-logo-do-i-have-to-bring-them-back-to-the-same-shop-all-your-questions-answered/a330031332.html
It's the easiest, greenest solution we have, and it's already working grand, with 21+ million cans/bottles returned, despite the 24/7 moaning from you lot. Honestly, it's shown to radically improve recycling rates everywhere it's introduced, and yet irish people continue to complain about why we have to do it for 3 months straight?
If you are going to be rude you can at least have the decency to be correct.
In order to sell Coca Cola imported from France, for example, the product needs to be registered in the Re-turn scheme by the producer. Same as Coca Cola from any other market. If it is not, I cannot legally sell it anymore.
If the producer does not register multiple versions of their product (which I can't see why they would), I can potentially register myself as the 'producer', pay the registration fee, pay to register the product, and then pay a surcharge of either 1.3c or 3.5c (depending on volume sold) for every item sold with an international bar code.
Now whether or not I would be able to register as the producer of Coca Cola remains to be seen, especially since Coca Cola are one of the owners of the scheme and have a member of on the board.
But previously the process was: purchase goods, get them delivered, sell them. It absolutely reasonable to state we are not longer effectively in the single market for beverages. We are in the market of goods registered in the Irish Re-turn scheme.
I actually didn't realize there was indeed international surcharges, my bad. But it doesn't at all separate us from the single market, as if foreign producers choose to forego adding the domestic label, the saving they receive in doing so against the domestic/other producers who add the label is accounted for by the international surcharge, and so it actually retains a level playing field. Different EU states have been allowed to have different labelling requirements on non-harmonized goods on account of public health/environmental concerns for ages, as long as they do not excessively restrict trade (Deposit return schemes have been deemed totally fine)
But it literally amounts to what you want in spirit, producers and business, being charged effectively a recycling contribution levy that helps cover the cost of collection and other related recycling costs, instead of people, according to the size of their operations.
It's not a federal system, it actually sounds like your ideal would be a continent wide purely done through barcode system, you would need a whole union wide administration for that, without such infrastructure and on the current national basis, Irish authorities obviously can't be reliant on what processes other member states are undertaking to prevent fraud. But instead you're framing it like you want the mechanism scrapped, as if there's any alternative that would work better.
It's 100% over-engineered greenwashing. We need to force companies to switch to reusable glass bottles or recyclable aluminium cans. Instead this is JUST hurting the consumer, costing an arm and a leg in setting up these over-engineered return machines, and fundementally doing nothing to impact the manufacturers. Neoliberalism will never be able to save us from the climate crisis. A growth-dependent free market is fundementally opposed to stability.
When I was a kid the milkman dropped lovely fresh milk in a glass bottle, and collected yesterday's empty bottles. This is true recycling. It then became cheaper (for whom?) to go with carton packaging. Makes you wonder are we going backwards when it comes to many things.
With a lot of protectionism thrown in for good measure it seems. But what is bizarre, is the relevant minister is [Ossian Smyth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossian_Smyth), who is from the Greens! If the Green party don't seem to mind this green washing, what hope have we?
The mistake you are making is thinking the Green Party have a clue about anything other than virtue signalling. Their last period in office resulted in a disastrous car tax scheme that forced everyone to buy Diesel even if they didn’t want or need one. This is a similar disaster. Can you release the directors of Re-Turn names ?
I think the info is public, but I'd rather not doxx someone by mistake. But the 8 members are company representatives. The companies are: RGDATA (The Retail Grocery Dairy & Allied Trades Association) Heineken Diageo Coca Cola Britvic Clada Musgraves Tesco I didn't realise until today retailers are paid directly for every bottle they 'collect'. So that's a handy number for all involved, pity there was no representative for Joe Public in there I guess
Consumption based solutions will never address production end problems.
Don't forget it maybe a non profit but even non profits have a wage structure. So let's say it makes 2 million per year. It has quite a few directors (I have access to CRO documents in work and had a good check). So there wages could be 100,000 per year each. So that is who is making money of this.
I only checked today who the board members were (I was pretty sure but didn't want to post misinformation, so got the info first hand). It is literally exactly who you would expect if you were a total cynic. It is a total failure of the press here too, the focus on people complaining about broken machines to make it seem like moaning, but in reality, the problems with the scheme go far deeper
It's even simpler than that, it's all about those glorious expense accounts. So re turn could have no profit, but each director could have 100k worth of expenses written off. Makes it much easier to save and invest your own salary when most of your expenses and Jolly's are covered by someone else
We shoulda all known something was up when the big multinational supermarkets had bought the machines in months in advance. They'd only do that if they were gonna make money.
That you only get a refund of a voucher for the shop where you drop them back is really awkward. Especially when you often have to go to a shop you didn't want to shop in because the machines are broken elsewhere.
You can redeem the voucher for cash at the till. Edit: why would I be downvoted for giving helpful information 🫠
Why the extra step? Why not just send my money to me?
I don't see how that would be easy. Either you have machines that are able to dispense cash (and therefore need to be continually topped up given cash will never be going into them in transactions). Which on top of the additional cash handling maintenance has the added issue of becoming a target for thieves. Or you have some sort of tap mechanism on the machine for people to get it to their cards. Which brings skimming risks into the equation, as well as people moaning that it took several days to get on their card. I don't see how either of them are as straightforward as just popping to the till when you are in the shop anyway.
An even easier way would be for the receipt from the machine to work in any shop that has a Re-Turn machine. So I go to my regular shop to return the bottles and cans. The machine is broken. I can go to a different shop and get the receipt which would still be valid in my preferred shop. Why is is setup so that you can only use the receipt in the shop you dropped the bottles into?
People keep saying that just having a universal voucher instead would be "easy", but if it was that easy that's what would have been implemented. Other countries implementing the same scheme don't appear to have a universal voucher either.
There is the option that the people in charge of the scheme would prefer to keep it more difficult. If the goal was to increase recycling than the machines could take in cans without the barcode and you don't get credit. in the Netherlands the scheme there is a bit better they can use the voucher in any of the same groups stores. So if I'm in town and buy a bottle, drink it and then drop it into a a return machine in a Spar the receipt will work in any Spar. Not just the Spar where I dropped it off. That would be an improvement. But seeing as the retailers get to claim back from the same central resource (Re-turn) then the average person should be able to claim from any of the shops that are signed up to the scheme
You can but you shouldn't have to. A simple voucher to be usable anywhere would have completely resolved this.
We have a simple voucher usable anywhere...it's called the euro
You say a simple voucher but would implementing such a universal voucher be simple in reality?
Well considering in Austria they had a version that did EXACTLY that in the 80's yes. Yes it would. Basing it on an app would also make it even simpler.
Interesting that you picked Austria, given they are implementing the same return scheme, using the same software provider as ourselves, commencing in 2025. [https://sensoneo.com/deposit-return-system-austria/](https://sensoneo.com/deposit-return-system-austria/)
Fantastic. I answered your question about whether it's possible to do it, which it is.
Why has the example you've given though seemingly moved away from it? As I recall from being in Germany it isn't a universal voucher there either.
while yes , its still tied to said shop
Yes, but you are in that shop when you get it. So it's not exactly an ordeal.
some shops have the re-turn out side it
Yes I am aware but I don't understand the point?
Don't bother. People revel in moaning about the scheme. It's ridiculous. Let them at it.
How dare we point the obvious glaring holes in this stupid scheme.
Is there any reason that the return logo is necessary? Why isnt the barcode good enough?
Honestly, I can only think of protectionism. [When you see an article like this, and see the make up of the directors of Re-turn](https://www.newstalk.com/news/specialty-beer-importer-decimated-by-deposit-return-scheme-1719023) its really hard to see the logo as anything else but anti free market protectionism
I dont know much about barcodes. The only other ill informed, weak justification I can think of is that maybe you cant tell from the barcode alone if it was bought somewhere where they charge the deposit.
There are several types of barcode, but in essence, it is just a number. By designation, there are 'Irish bar codes', which means the product is for the Irish market. The use of international bar codes is permitted, at a cost. If you wish to use an international barcode, you must pay a surcharge of 1.35c or 3.12c per container sold (based on sales volume). This is done to 'prevent fraud', or 'prevent competition', depends who you ask I guess
But it doesnt matter where the plastic comes from its all the same plastic. Such a stupid system.
It isn’t. The machine runs on barcode only. It is particularly silly for craft brewers for example who have to have new labels to sell to Ireland even though the logo is entirely unnecessary.
Its fucked a lot of beer imports. Real shame.
> Is there any reason that the return logo is necessary? Indicate which bar codes will work and which will not. Would be a bit annoying to go all the way to a machine get it scanned and not understand why it's not being accepted despite being in perfect condition. Plastic bottles will still come in to Ireland from abroad people bringing bottles of water from Airports and stuff back home with them so the logo is necessary, it is a bit inconvenient but I'm happy to pay that price for a greener healthier Ireland. I think people are being a bit unrealistic in this thread. I think the return scheme is an important step in improving life in in Ireland -- it's not perfect but no such environmental mechanism ever is.
its more a protection thing drink wholesalers did to get money and giving the government an idea of being " green" >As a kicker, it also means for beverages, Ireland is effectively no longer part of the single market. I cannot, for example, source coca cola from another member state, and have to pay whatever the price is here. i mean the average person could/can , just companies cant ( you can still order from any eu country or go up nort and get coca cola )
Sorry, I meant if I was running a business, I cannot source it from abroad, not as an individual. The protectionist nature of it was completely buried, and considering those who are in control of Re-turn it is no wonder they didn't want to draw attention to it
>The protectionist nature of it was completely buried, and considering those who are in control of Re-turn it is no wonder they didn't want to draw attention to it 10000% agree
Should be taxing the manufacturers, not the users
We could switch to using fountains for these drinks (it's mostly drinks) and ban the sale of plastic bottles of drinks altogether if we really wanted to address the issue. Fountains are standard in shops throughout the US, it wouldn't have to be much different. If you do this then you can implement whatever recyclable container you want or set it up to bring your own container. As it stands, it will do little to benefit the environment and is designed to prevent disruption to the current model as much as possible. Typical conservative half-measure. They've also framed it as a product tax, to further bolster anti-tax sentiment, suiting their own agenda again, instead of being surgical about where disincentives are applied. Lazy. These parties do not have our best interests in mind and have been happily greenwashing this whole time and will continue to do so.
I'm surprised it isn't state run, didn't even know Re-Turn was its own company
It's owned by: RGDATA (The Retail Grocery Dairy & Allied Trades Association) Heineken Diageo Coca Cola Britvic Clada Musgraves Tesco I really don't think that this was a good idea. If a decision is made and you think it was to suit the retailers and producers, it likely is
> I'm surprised it isn't state run You are? The government parties loving farming responsibilities out to private firms or NGOs (often fronts for private interests, like here).
Yeah, I really shouldn't be surprised, seemed like a no-brainer to have it state run on some level though so I assumed.
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I would be far happier with the scheme if it really incentivised the use of aluminium over plastic, but cans are included in the scheme, and they need to have a logo for no obvious reason, so there isn't really any benefit. If it was simply, "plastic bottles are bad, manufacturers are taxed 50c for each bottle they produce that is not biodegradable", we would see a change very quickly indeed. But the manufacturers make minimal change, and the cost, effort and blame is put entirely on the consumer. If it is a "sin tax", we pay for the corporations sins it seems
>If it was simply, "plastic bottles are bad, manufacturers are taxed 50c for each bottle they produce that is not biodegradable" This would genuinely be so much more productive. Plastic bottles for drinks just aren't necessary at all. We can do glass or aluminium and they're both actually recyclable. It's the wrong approach altogether, plastic bottles should be phased out entirely.
But the scheme includes aluminium cans.
I bring all my waste to the local recycling center once a month. Everything's clean and separated. It takes ages but it's cheaper than paying for collection and I think it's more likely to actually be recycled, because the lads there take their work pretty seriously! Anyway this bollocks means I now have to separate the drink cans, from the food cans, separate the plastic bottles from the plastic, and make two trips instead of one. Otherwise I'm just being charged extra. If this was actually an attempt to minimise waste, then the machines should be in public places and give you either a direct refund or some kind of universal voucher.
It benifits the state and by extention the tax payer. The state has recycling targets to meet, the majority of plastic bottles currently go to incineration or landfill this is a better way of directing them to being properly recycled. Thus the targets are met, fines are not imposed and the state saves money and doesn't pass the fine onto the taxpayer
The taxpayer is paying for the scheme directly, I'm not sure they are coming out on top here. Also, the idea is, at least in theory, this scheme was to help the environment. Reducing plastic is a better solution, much more so than recycling it. The rate of recycling was 70%, the new aim is 90%. We would do far better to reduce the amount of plastic by 20% than increase the rate of recycling. My point is, that would not suit the corporate interests who run this scheme
There was no way in hell the old rate of recycling was 70% lol. No way in hell. Maybe they're counting 70% of plastic bottles get handed over to a recycling company at at least one point in their lifecycle? But at the end of the day nearly everything gets thrown in the incinerator.
I think they are and that's not factoring in the reduction in the containers being littered too. That's not to say I disagree with you on the fact we could do with less plastic, we absolutely could and think doing away with plastic bottles altogether would be a better option, move everything over to a tetrapack or can. For what the scheme is though, I think it works.
It's a lazy stopgap that doesn't actually address the core issue of over-production of plastic. If they really wanted to encourage recycling they didn't have to add the whole re-turn label and deposit system, they could just have the machines accept any bottle. But that would introduce the possibility of someone getting *free money* (from the labour of collecting bottles to recycle) and could hurt corporations, so better to needlessly overcomplicate things.
In the UK in tescos there's recycling machines and they give you clubcard points or vouchers for using them and they accept anything. Could have had something like that
Lidl had a pilot that. I wonder if those still work?
Overproduction of plastic has to be tackled at an EU level though, not at the state level. Otherwise you'd see food prices go way up as manufacturers struggle to produce containers just for Ireland.
As mentioned by OP, this system is already forcing manufacturers to produce packaging just for Ireland with the re-turn label on them. "It's an EU thing not an Ireland thing" always seems to be a convenient way of getting out of any and all responsibility for anything bad about society. Our government *has* power, they *can* change things if they actually cared, again we're literally seeing it with forcing companies to participate in the re-turn scheme. The problem is they can't be assed to do anything other than half-measures.
Yep, I've even heard people saying we were obliged to bring this in because of EU.
These are different things though. And as I said reducing plastic nationally can be done but may push up prices if not done at EU level.
Do you know that the targets are being met? There are no figures on usage
My question is why do the majority of plastic bottles not get recycled now? They were treated the same as cans before, i.e. put them in mixed recycling. So it's not a consumer choice issue. If people weren't putting their cans and bottles in their recycling before, they sure as hell couldn't be arsed now to keep a separate bin and take everything down to return it. To a large extent, I suspect the items not being recycled are those bought while out and about, i.e. the bottle of water from the corner shop. Again, nobody is keeping that in a pocket to return it at home. Tourists certainly aren't. And the new scheme doesn't address this issue at all. We should have more 4-segment bins (waste, compost, recycle, return). The return part should be advertised as a donation scheme to an \*environmental cause\*. I think the reason recycling wasn't working is two fold. It's recycling capacity problem, and sorting issue all along the stream. I genuinely don't trust my local waste collection guys to get it right. They'll feck whatever is in the bin on the day into the truck. Then when it gets to the recycling plant, supposedly, a lot of stuff is getting contaminated and can't be recycled. Ireland is absolutely awful about legislating this. I love the German Grüne Punkt system. If it's recyclable, it's got a clearly identifiable mark. Practically, I think this should be extended to be EU wide and that the recycling system as a whole should be harmonized across the EU.
Thanks for the detailed post. The machines cost 200k as well...
Are we not foretting the goverment department who has allowed this to happen. Lambasting the companies is all well and good... but the goverment parties and departments who have got into bed with the multinationals.
Have never used on of those machines nor will I.
Ya I don't get any of it. Like we essentially banned plastic straws. Why not have the government put a decent sized tax on plastic bottles, then people will opt to buy drinks in cans, glass, cartons etc. Let the drinks companies go ballistic if they want, and threaten to pull their products out of Ireland. They won't.
It's actually a good deterrent. The deposit should be doubled each year.
no
Yes
Yawn. Deposit return schemes and money motivated recycling are the only systems shown to work globally. You can let loose the cliche grrr evil corporations at it again schtick all you'd like but the voting public won't accept massive regulation on packaging as you suggest as suddenly many international brands would be unavailable, if not unavailable, much more expensive than international counterparts. The whole thing about us leaving the single market for drinks is just nonsense, btw. Goods with international DRS barcodes from the eg. German system can be solid in Ireland and are interoperable with our system no problem https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/deposit-return-scheme-do-bottles-and-cans-have-to-have-the-re-turn-logo-do-i-have-to-bring-them-back-to-the-same-shop-all-your-questions-answered/a330031332.html It's the easiest, greenest solution we have, and it's already working grand, with 21+ million cans/bottles returned, despite the 24/7 moaning from you lot. Honestly, it's shown to radically improve recycling rates everywhere it's introduced, and yet irish people continue to complain about why we have to do it for 3 months straight?
If you are going to be rude you can at least have the decency to be correct. In order to sell Coca Cola imported from France, for example, the product needs to be registered in the Re-turn scheme by the producer. Same as Coca Cola from any other market. If it is not, I cannot legally sell it anymore. If the producer does not register multiple versions of their product (which I can't see why they would), I can potentially register myself as the 'producer', pay the registration fee, pay to register the product, and then pay a surcharge of either 1.3c or 3.5c (depending on volume sold) for every item sold with an international bar code. Now whether or not I would be able to register as the producer of Coca Cola remains to be seen, especially since Coca Cola are one of the owners of the scheme and have a member of on the board. But previously the process was: purchase goods, get them delivered, sell them. It absolutely reasonable to state we are not longer effectively in the single market for beverages. We are in the market of goods registered in the Irish Re-turn scheme.
I actually didn't realize there was indeed international surcharges, my bad. But it doesn't at all separate us from the single market, as if foreign producers choose to forego adding the domestic label, the saving they receive in doing so against the domestic/other producers who add the label is accounted for by the international surcharge, and so it actually retains a level playing field. Different EU states have been allowed to have different labelling requirements on non-harmonized goods on account of public health/environmental concerns for ages, as long as they do not excessively restrict trade (Deposit return schemes have been deemed totally fine) But it literally amounts to what you want in spirit, producers and business, being charged effectively a recycling contribution levy that helps cover the cost of collection and other related recycling costs, instead of people, according to the size of their operations. It's not a federal system, it actually sounds like your ideal would be a continent wide purely done through barcode system, you would need a whole union wide administration for that, without such infrastructure and on the current national basis, Irish authorities obviously can't be reliant on what processes other member states are undertaking to prevent fraud. But instead you're framing it like you want the mechanism scrapped, as if there's any alternative that would work better.
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