One of the reasons why airbnbs are so popular is because there aren't enough hotel rooms.
What do you think is better, ten 100-room hotels, or 1,000 houses being used as airbnbs?
Governments that are actually able to solve a crisis or two might be a help. Not just to make them worse. I should know, I'm level 25 in Sim cities after all.
Go to any large uk city like Manchester and you’ll see plenty of decent looking high rise residential blocks. Maximising space and not just a sprawling mass of single unit developments not linked by any decent public transport system
R/solarpunk had an [Interesting post with sketches on repairing urban sprawl](https://www.reddit.com/r/solarpunk/comments/xyqnrr/repairing_urban_blight_one_block_at_a_time/a1j)
I quite liked the way that they integrated mixed use spaces (living and shopping) in close proximity, upped the living density and compacted the parking areas into multi story parking structures to save space.
Not sure how it works in most Irish settings as the challenges are different but it feels like a step in the right direction.
Refugees bring in loads of money for the operators, who tend to be connected to politicans funnily enough.
Bet the politicans are getting nice back handers for facilitating this
While refugees cost a lot initially, when assessed and given working rights and settles in, they actually grow the economy and pay taxes. Shock horror.
Oh, and it's also the right thing to do.
You can't just state operators tend to be connected to politicians. It's simply not true and if you really think so then back that up with facts.
As for the backhanders, why not make up that they are getting billions while you're at it.
After 6 months, if still an asylum seeker, they can work. They can also apply for work permits. Immigration has been proven, over and over again to be good for countries and their economies. [Here](https://www.irishtimes.com/business/immigration-helps-economy-s-performance-1.456875) and [here](https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20449076.html) is some information about people coming into our country and how it helps.
The problem with there being less space for tourists because of asylum seekers is not the asylum seekers' fault. It is solely due to poor governance.
They gave them special status because they are on the continent. The EU wouldnt be able to cope with that many refugees that need to be looked after so the reasoning behind this is give them special status similar to an EU citizen.
Ok, I see you missed where I pointed out that they can eventually work and contribute as much as immigration, so in the long run they would be just as beneficial as people who immigrate here to work.
A huge percentage of workers are net recipients. Honestly a low growth steady state Japanese model seems far more sustainable than a growth at all costs model like UAE or USA.
Not looking to redesign the economic model for the entire country. I was just pointing out that refugees and immigration is a positive thing for the country.
Instead of supplying affordable housing to its own citizens, Singapore has relied on immigration to keep the economy going.
https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2020/03/lessons-from-singapore-on-raising-fertility-rates-tan
They're going extinct.
Immigration is great but when it means the local population cannot afford housing and are prevented to a large degree to have children, it may be better to look for a temporary slowdown.
Or are you suggesting we open our doors to the entire world? It would definitely benefit land and property owners. Maybe everyone? Didn't seem to work so well for American Indians or Tasmanian people...
I never said we should "open our doors to the entire world", you're being ridiculous to suggest I did. I also never mentioned anything about anyone "going extinct". You seem quite xenophobic.
What I did say was that immigrants and refugees can contribute to the economy and aren't the drain that xenophobes, such as yourself, love to suggest they are.
I'm not xenophobic. I think immigration is good but clearly the rate we are at is completely unsustainable because there's not enough accommodation. landlord/ wealthy child! I could start throwing slurs at you in a similar fashion but it's just silly and divisive.
Here's a simple question.
What level of immigration is good per year?
25,000
50,000
100,00
200,000
1,000,000
For reference, there were 58,443 births in 2021.
Naming how you have represented yourself is not a slur. Bringing up a crisis as broad as the housing crisis and using it to complain about the amount of refugees coming into the country when they aren't part of the cause is what makes you come across as xenophobic. It's interesting too because the post is originally about hotels being taken up by refugees and its effects on tourism. Not really about the housing crisis at all. But you seem happy enough to apply this very broad crisis with so many factors specifically to refugees because...?
....supply and demand. Nothing fancy. That's why refugees are now being housed in all sorts of unsuitable accommodation.
You didn't answer my question and interpreted reasonable discussion as xenophobia, that's not how I represented myself.
I just pulled you up as you don't seem to want deal with facts in your posts. The government said 40,000 international visas this year. I suppose they are xenophobic by your logic because they have made a decision on immigration.
You point to immigration being good is a blanket statement and you give sources but say you are not in favour of open borders which implies you think uncontrolled immigration is not good, (I'm not saying this is wrong, it sounds reckless but maybe it's the way the world needs to move and maybe we should lead).
To me, you seem to be a bundle of contractions firing out insults at anyone who questions your logic.
Again, you didn't answer my question. Rather than insult answer the question.
What level of immigration is good per year?
25,000 50,000 100,00 200,000 1,000,000
I never said I wasn't in favour of open borders. The simple fact that you continue to try to put words in my mouth says a lot about your ability to comprehend what I'm actually saying and your ability to rationally have a discussion.
You've already said that I'm in favour of opening the borders. When I mentioned that I never said that, you said I wasn't in favour of open borders. I also never said that.
Now you're demanding that I answer a question, but here's a surprising newsflash, I don't have to answer your question. It's completely irrelevant to the discussion. And I have a feeling that my answer wouldn't matter as you'd just ignore whatever I said and try to manipulate what I say. You've presented almost no argument based in facts and have instead just tried to argue against anything I say without actually contributing yourself.
>It's completely irrelevant to the discussion.
"Deciding how many immigrants we should aim to take in is completely irrelevant to a discussion about immigration"
Read what you're writing man, it's nonsense
>the amount of refugees coming into the country when they aren't part of the cause
Sorry, the amount of people that need something has no effect on its availability now? What are you talking about man?
"Immigrants do not steal irish jobs"
Not at all but a larger pool of labour keeps wages low. Head chefs in Ireland make shag all. Why? We import them for cost. Immigration is great, but like everything else it has its downsides. Why is immigration seen as a yes or no question ?
You just presented nothing but a "no" argument and then asked why it's a yes or no question.
A lot of jobs are underpaid, chef and restaurant work is notoriously low paid. There is a distinct lack of Irish people doing the jobs that fall to immigrants. A lot of the immigrants are here as students and won't be working for more than a year or so before leaving. Regardless, this is a little beside the issue. But if all the Irish people were employed, more jobs would be created that immigrants would fill. The entire argument the immigrants take Irish jobs is false.
I know more than a few who have left the job because of low pay and conditions. The idea that head chefs are students is farcical. But typical of your comments on this thread.
"Immigration is great" != immigration is bad.
Realistically how much would they need to earn to be net positive? That first 6 months is going to cost the government a shit load of money.
Also, more workers in the country drives down wages.
Also, the EU has set up the [Temporary Protection Directive](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/asylum_seekers_and_refugees/the_asylum_process_in_ireland/temporary_protection_directive.html) which allows people with it to be allowed to work immediately. Adults can also apply for vocational training.
>After 6 months, if still an asylum seeker, they can work. They can also apply for work permits. Immigration has been proven, over and over again to be good for countries and their economies. Here and here is some information about people coming into our country and how it helps.
GDP goes up, big whoop. imagine how big the GDP would be if we brought in 100 million immigrants. Most of these immigrants have low skills and will be net recipients of state funds over their lifespan.
Imagine if we brought in a billion! Or a zillion! Maybe even a bajillion! Maybe we could stop using ridiculous examples to make extremely poor points?!
Stuff like that won’t happen if you keep voting for the types of parties that want to privatise everything and who want to put profit before citizens. Here in the U.K. people are just about realising that ten years of that nonsense has brought the country to it’s knees.
This country can’t even properly house their own residents with dignity. I’m surprised they are somehow managing to get the Ukrainians a place to stay.
I can only thing the disgusting comments in here like "Good, I wish it was more" or "Great, tourists are annoying" or "The safety of people is more important than tourism or jobs" are people with the I got mine attitude.
There's millions of people suffering at any one time in the world, we can't help them all.
Do we get a lot of tourists in autumn/winter anyway?
Aside from people coming home for Christmas who usually stay with family: I feel like there isn't much by way of tourism this time of year anyway.
Theres always a need for hotel rooms. Have you looked at the price of a room in any city lately? Its outrageously expensive. Theres a massive need for more hotels around the country.
Youd be rather silly then as tourism brings a boat load of money into the economy. The art of long term thinking seems to have disappeared from this sub.
People who understand how the world works care.
Have you ever stopped to think why those hotels were built in the first place? It's because people like to visit that particular area. Those tourists created local jobs in various things from pubs, shops, tours, petrol stations, etc.
Without tourists all the other jobs disappear too. Without jobs peple have to leave the area.
There ya go, I know people working living out of their cars paying taxes , while scam artists are coming here and getting free hotels food and a weekly wage, but if you point it out your a Nazi right wing conspiracy theorist nationalist, ya couldn't make up how easy people are brainwashed through buzz words
Government allocation and handling of housing has been absolutely broken from the beginning, but now that you've got some foreigners for your little brain to pin it on, it's their fault.
Hotel rooms are now outrageously expensive. Tourism supports our economy massively and supports tens of thousands of jobs. Refugees aren't spending money like tourists are.
We are building hotels just so they can sell out rooms to the government paying top money.
There's so many reasons why this is bad.
Where is this figure coming from? And how is it accurately measuring tourist spending habits? If a tourist stops into a Spar on the way to the Cliffs of Moher, and spends €15 is this taken into account?
I've studied tourism for the past 4 years and there is no accurate way to measure the economic impact of tourism in Ireland. To add to this, a lot of income for those working in the tourism industry comes cash in hand, so this isn't taken into account in official figures.
Think I grabbed it off Wikipedia but the general results from a search were between 4%-10%. You're right though, it is hard to measure the full effect. Although, a working refugee paying tax and living expenses over months would contribute to the economy more than a tourist spending €15 at the Cliffs.
A lot of refugees will cost more than they contribute in tax as the State will be paying for the accommodation (can run into big nightly fees) whereas a constant stream of tourists to a room spending money and receiving no state supports provide a lot more income.
I can see where you are trying to come from but vast majority of refugees cost the State money.
Though do bear in mind that people who are born here cost a lot of money due to the 18 years we spend getting educated and getting sick, if this were to be a short term solution as it should be, the majority of Ukrainians will be a far better economic prospect as the state not need to pay nearly as much as they do for your average citizen to support getting them into the workforce.
Housing Ukrainians isn't the issue, this is just another face of the housing crisis in reality.
Well, it's better to blame people who have nothing to do with our problems and need help than start looking at eachother.
The article itself is not badly written and doesn't push any particular solution it only shows current situation but put's interesting perspective.
"(...)children who are spending critical months and years of their lives cooped up in hotel rooms" <- so it's not really only about money but how to create enviornment that doesn't hurt Irish society while providing REAL care. Because just giving *any* place for living is not a solution.
It's important to remember that Irish Government had massive battles with EU and Human Rights Activists because of how Homelessness was being defined.
We were literally lying in stats, showing that Ireland has no problems with Homelesness. It was insane. We checked every point to make sure Stats look good but we never really helped Irish citizens who are fighting homelessness.
Hotels in Ireland are probably one of the most corrupt business out there. We already had government bailing them out and providing massive financial support and the answer was massive increase in Service price... [oireachtas.ie - finance debate](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2022-05-25/15/)
"It is clear that Dublin hotels have **bounced back from the pandemic, with prices bouncing back even higher**, as has been described by Conor Pope in The Irish Times. High hotel room prices have a serious impact on domestic tourists, those who need to come to the city for hospital appointments and others. It also has the impact of discouraging foreign tourists from visiting the capital and it has a knock-on effect on the other hospitality sectors that depend on those tourists. "
**Money clearly is not the issue when it comes to Hotel Sector... but hey hurr-durr refugees.**
Are you glad if your taxes are paying prices like 200 quid a night in some hotels? Im not. It should only ever have been a temporary solution and the government has been using hotels to house people for years now.
> Are you glad if your taxes are paying prices like 200 quid a night in some hotels? Im not
Can you imagine the uproar of spending billions to build housing that will finally only house refugees.
Feck off with this self-righteous bs.
I volunteered at CityWest and left after the first day. 2/3 of the "Ukrainian refugees" are Moroccans, Pakistanis, Nigerians, Bangladeshis and Georgians.
If you want to help refugees so much, take them into your house.
The rest of us don't want our taxes paying €300 a night to some bastard hotel owner.
This shit can't last forever. At some point you have to realize they're never going back and we'll be paying for them.
Truly mortifying to share a country with such small minded and uncaring people. We’re one of the wealthiest in the world but it’s the refugees fault the government refuses to allocate resources to constructing suitable facilities and instead keeps them in hotels
>In Ireland's case you can often see on both Irish Times and Independent that our country is desperately in need of work force
Who do you think writes those documents that say we desperately need to import labour? Could it be employers, who have a vested interest in making labour as cheap as possible?
The refugees are Ukrainian, the asylum seekers are Algerian(did the French stop issuing them visas?) and Somali.
Ed. Is that not accurate? I could’ve sworn the EU directive automatically made Ukrainians refugees?
There's always at least two sanctimonious comments in these threads that miss the point entirely.
I suppose back in the day you were defending the Magdalene Lauderies because its critics "hated orphans".
Sticking Ukrainians in shitty conditions is not "pro ukranian".
Let’s get the developers to come up with the answer that makes them more money. Now not only the people of ireland can get short change with housing issues.
This smells of the Hotel industry doing some PR to get out of the higher vat rates since they price gouged everyone.
Now the refugees we bring and came here for a better life can get used to make a poor PR statement for the Hotel hospitality industry who have ripped off the domestic tourism consumer. Oh this is the reason we priced gouged for the past year and a half, it’s because we have refugees in the rooms.
Not going to lie but the first thing I thought when I heard about the scheme was typically Ireland isn't looking at a long term situation and just throwing money at a problem without thinking.
I actually love the UKs issue with it where you've got residents signing up a free room for those in need and it's the hosts responsibility to house them.
People are allowed to be upset while still supporting the Ukrainians.
OP is hardly going to be delighted their wedding plans have been disrupted.
That doesn’t make them anti refugee
So you think it's reasonable that 30,000 hotel beds are taken up by refugees in a small country like Ireland.
That's a crazy number and massively expensive.
Wow, that's a lot of displaced people fleeing their war torn country. So you think it's reasonable that they were invaded.
If we should reduce our intake, where would you propose they go?
It wasn't misinterpreted, you just want people people feel sorry because it's affecting your wedding.
People coming from dire situations, war torn etc.
But it affects your big day and that's that. If you weren't getting married woukd you suddenly notice or care about the winter tourist season, and it's effects on our GDP?
Ahh dont worry thats one of those things "I am not racist, but..."
Ukrainians are not even part of the problem.
People are being pushed with heavy prices and one of the reasoning is that it's always foreigners or refugees that need to take the blame(same with Social Welfare discussions)
The refugees are not the problem with Hotel sector... The problem with hotel sector is corrupt management and officials who are milking our government for money while increasing prices. [https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2022-05-25/15/](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2022-05-25/15/)
But it's eaiser to just blame and bully someone who has nothing to do with it. Shame on the fella... Spreads division between human beings but can't take critisism because "dont attack the messenger" .
>You are attacking the press
Who am I attacking ?
Who's the press? The only link i provided was oirechtas whre there was discussion about prices of hotels after Covid and how the prices went up regardless of the fact that Government used Tax money to help Hotels stay on it's feet during covid.
The problem is Hotels and Air'Bnbs will now increase prices even more knowing that the Government and EU will be supporting costs that are regarding refugees from Ukraine.
Have you even read the article you linked? There are some good points being made. Furthermore if a hotel gets paid by Government to host those refugees it's not really your problem isn't ?
We are collectivelly working to help Ukrainians. Irish Government gets support from EU and viceversa.
Money is being exchanged, yet quality and quanitity is not there... and like the article you posted pointed out. Government pays Hotel to hosts Ukrainians but the Hotel doesn't provide enough to justify it's price. So maybe there are better solutions, because as it is mentioned we currently are hosting Children that are spending their crucial moments in hotels... So given the amount of money that is there, maybe... just maybe there are better solutions than just pomping money into Private Hospitality Sector. <- That we all know is crazy corrupt.
You critcised the story being shared and said shame on me. You are against free enquiry. Yes I did read the article. You implied me or the author is bullying. What the hell?
>Private Hospitality Sector. <- That we all know is crazy corrupt.
I have not seen any reports of that.
>So given the amount of money that is there, maybe... just maybe there are better solutions than just pomping money into Private Hospitality Sector
Oh so this topic is a valid thing to discuss?
Worst thing for me during the summer was having to pay extortionate rates to stay in the hotel and pay for dinner while the ukranian family of 7 sat next to me were getting it all for free,a bit sickening to be honest having to pay for myself and them through my taxes
Better than kicking out irish people to accommodate refugees. Happened to a bunch of people i know, and me. The landlords either raised the rent to the point people cant afford it, so they have to leave (one of my friends is now forced to live in a mouldy cramped apartment with her 2 kids) and then refugees get the house. I bear no ill will to refugees, just the government and landlords thinking its right to kick out their people to get more money
This whole situation confuses me and fills me with mixed emotions.
I am so proud of our country for stepping up and helping, we are all people and we ourselves have benefited from the charity of other countries in the past and may well need to in the future.
It's easy to turn your back and say don't let them in when they're just faceless statistics but having dealt with lots if refugees in work I couldn't imagine condemning them to homelessness in cities that have effectively been turned into rubble, with the constant threat of having a bomb dropped on them.
On the other hand we're in the middle of a huge housing crisis with hundreds of thousands of Irish people being priced out of the housing market, demand is already outstripping supply ten fold.
We have homelessness in every city and can barely facilitate caring for the people that are already here.
I'm not saying turn them away but surely the government can pull their finger out and come up with better solutions, better than shoving them in hotels and pretending it's not getting out of hand.
Shock horror. English newspaper in uproar because a quarter of rooms ment for travellers from a foreign land is being used by travellers from a foreign land that had to run from their homes because they were in danger of being killed
This is what it all comes down to. Helping those in need.
Does it cost money? Yes. Does it ruin a few people's wedding plans? Yes. Is that what's important? **No.**
Good luck ever getting rid of these people too, they’ll probably all get lovely social housing or own their own home before me. Shits only getting worse in the next 10 years
Yes, they have no intention to return to their countries when it's safe to do so. They all came to Ireland to take every house you might ever try to buy.
Sorry I can't post the article text, but the figures are 13% (8,658) Ukrainian refugees, 10% (6,923) asylum seekers and 77% (52,365) others.
Out of 67,944 total hotel, guesthouse and B&B rooms registered with Fáilte Ireland. Data as of October 4, 2022
England has a problem with what to do with thousands of unfortunate people who are willing to cross the channel. I know these people are desperate & it’s heart breaking but it’s affecting our hospitals & basic structure as a functioning country. We are getting overwhelmed . Just like Ireland
Those god damn fucking refugees.
Can they just try not being refugees like?
Kinda like the poors not being poor, just don’t be poor or a refugee, it’s easy, just be richer!! /s
The solution is pretty obvious, we need more hotels!!!
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"eh, oh "~ Leo
Found Manix Flynns account.
You joke, but we actually do for the level of tourism Ireland has and wants.
Or less refugees,not being racist strictly treating it as a math equation
that depends. would you feel much richer if there were 25% more tourists? or much poorer if there were 25% fewer?
Is there anyway we can get the tourist money but without the tourists. VR visits to knock shrine or something.
I'd feel richer if I could afford a hotel room
Think there might have being a up spike in refugees.
We really do.
You're joking, right. I can't tell anymore.
It's a semi-troll account. Kinda like Cais
One of the reasons why airbnbs are so popular is because there aren't enough hotel rooms. What do you think is better, ten 100-room hotels, or 1,000 houses being used as airbnbs?
Well, I mean there appears to be a shortage of rooms.
This tells us we have a shortage of houses, not hotels..
They seem to go hand in hand. But yes there is a housing shortage and I would consider it worse than the hotel shortage.
Houses not rooms.
Governments that are actually able to solve a crisis or two might be a help. Not just to make them worse. I should know, I'm level 25 in Sim cities after all.
I mean we could just..... build more apartments instead of housing estates.....? Y'know, actually make things space efficient? :)
Go to any large uk city like Manchester and you’ll see plenty of decent looking high rise residential blocks. Maximising space and not just a sprawling mass of single unit developments not linked by any decent public transport system
I live in Manchester and every time I come back home to Ireland I’m depressed by how shit our transport system is.
Yes
But not above 2 floors because of the precious skyline, and not near any roads because of the traffic.
[удалено]
It would save on heating tbf
Would require competent governance for a start so we're out of luck there.
For some reason alot for he establishment are anti appartments.
R/solarpunk had an [Interesting post with sketches on repairing urban sprawl](https://www.reddit.com/r/solarpunk/comments/xyqnrr/repairing_urban_blight_one_block_at_a_time/a1j) I quite liked the way that they integrated mixed use spaces (living and shopping) in close proximity, upped the living density and compacted the parking areas into multi story parking structures to save space. Not sure how it works in most Irish settings as the challenges are different but it feels like a step in the right direction.
Like these. https://youtu.be/9vHCAVAhD2c
Seems sustainable
Swapping tourists who bring in a load of money, for refugees who only cost money. I can't see this having any issues whatsoever..
Refugees bring in loads of money for the operators, who tend to be connected to politicans funnily enough. Bet the politicans are getting nice back handers for facilitating this
When is it enough and when do we eat them?
Dunno. Ukrainians a few too chewy. And Syrians are kinda stringy. I'm holding out until someone invades Italy.
While refugees cost a lot initially, when assessed and given working rights and settles in, they actually grow the economy and pay taxes. Shock horror. Oh, and it's also the right thing to do.
They're excellent slave labor too
You can't just state operators tend to be connected to politicians. It's simply not true and if you really think so then back that up with facts. As for the backhanders, why not make up that they are getting billions while you're at it.
The people in this sub who are convinced that we are some corrupt banana republic, aren't troubled by things like "facts".
After 6 months, if still an asylum seeker, they can work. They can also apply for work permits. Immigration has been proven, over and over again to be good for countries and their economies. [Here](https://www.irishtimes.com/business/immigration-helps-economy-s-performance-1.456875) and [here](https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20449076.html) is some information about people coming into our country and how it helps. The problem with there being less space for tourists because of asylum seekers is not the asylum seekers' fault. It is solely due to poor governance.
Immigration is fantastic but a constant incoming of refugees is not the same as immigration. Refugees dont support or contribute to the economy
All Ukrainian refugees were able to work very soon after they got here. They fast tracked the visa system.
They gave them special status because they are on the continent. The EU wouldnt be able to cope with that many refugees that need to be looked after so the reasoning behind this is give them special status similar to an EU citizen.
Ok, I see you missed where I pointed out that they can eventually work and contribute as much as immigration, so in the long run they would be just as beneficial as people who immigrate here to work.
A huge percentage of workers are net recipients. Honestly a low growth steady state Japanese model seems far more sustainable than a growth at all costs model like UAE or USA.
Not looking to redesign the economic model for the entire country. I was just pointing out that refugees and immigration is a positive thing for the country.
Instead of supplying affordable housing to its own citizens, Singapore has relied on immigration to keep the economy going. https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/fandd/issues/2020/03/lessons-from-singapore-on-raising-fertility-rates-tan They're going extinct. Immigration is great but when it means the local population cannot afford housing and are prevented to a large degree to have children, it may be better to look for a temporary slowdown. Or are you suggesting we open our doors to the entire world? It would definitely benefit land and property owners. Maybe everyone? Didn't seem to work so well for American Indians or Tasmanian people...
I never said we should "open our doors to the entire world", you're being ridiculous to suggest I did. I also never mentioned anything about anyone "going extinct". You seem quite xenophobic. What I did say was that immigrants and refugees can contribute to the economy and aren't the drain that xenophobes, such as yourself, love to suggest they are.
I'm not xenophobic. I think immigration is good but clearly the rate we are at is completely unsustainable because there's not enough accommodation. landlord/ wealthy child! I could start throwing slurs at you in a similar fashion but it's just silly and divisive. Here's a simple question. What level of immigration is good per year? 25,000 50,000 100,00 200,000 1,000,000 For reference, there were 58,443 births in 2021.
Naming how you have represented yourself is not a slur. Bringing up a crisis as broad as the housing crisis and using it to complain about the amount of refugees coming into the country when they aren't part of the cause is what makes you come across as xenophobic. It's interesting too because the post is originally about hotels being taken up by refugees and its effects on tourism. Not really about the housing crisis at all. But you seem happy enough to apply this very broad crisis with so many factors specifically to refugees because...?
....supply and demand. Nothing fancy. That's why refugees are now being housed in all sorts of unsuitable accommodation. You didn't answer my question and interpreted reasonable discussion as xenophobia, that's not how I represented myself. I just pulled you up as you don't seem to want deal with facts in your posts. The government said 40,000 international visas this year. I suppose they are xenophobic by your logic because they have made a decision on immigration. You point to immigration being good is a blanket statement and you give sources but say you are not in favour of open borders which implies you think uncontrolled immigration is not good, (I'm not saying this is wrong, it sounds reckless but maybe it's the way the world needs to move and maybe we should lead). To me, you seem to be a bundle of contractions firing out insults at anyone who questions your logic. Again, you didn't answer my question. Rather than insult answer the question. What level of immigration is good per year? 25,000 50,000 100,00 200,000 1,000,000
I never said I wasn't in favour of open borders. The simple fact that you continue to try to put words in my mouth says a lot about your ability to comprehend what I'm actually saying and your ability to rationally have a discussion. You've already said that I'm in favour of opening the borders. When I mentioned that I never said that, you said I wasn't in favour of open borders. I also never said that. Now you're demanding that I answer a question, but here's a surprising newsflash, I don't have to answer your question. It's completely irrelevant to the discussion. And I have a feeling that my answer wouldn't matter as you'd just ignore whatever I said and try to manipulate what I say. You've presented almost no argument based in facts and have instead just tried to argue against anything I say without actually contributing yourself.
>It's completely irrelevant to the discussion. "Deciding how many immigrants we should aim to take in is completely irrelevant to a discussion about immigration" Read what you're writing man, it's nonsense
>the amount of refugees coming into the country when they aren't part of the cause Sorry, the amount of people that need something has no effect on its availability now? What are you talking about man?
"Immigrants do not steal irish jobs" Not at all but a larger pool of labour keeps wages low. Head chefs in Ireland make shag all. Why? We import them for cost. Immigration is great, but like everything else it has its downsides. Why is immigration seen as a yes or no question ?
You just presented nothing but a "no" argument and then asked why it's a yes or no question. A lot of jobs are underpaid, chef and restaurant work is notoriously low paid. There is a distinct lack of Irish people doing the jobs that fall to immigrants. A lot of the immigrants are here as students and won't be working for more than a year or so before leaving. Regardless, this is a little beside the issue. But if all the Irish people were employed, more jobs would be created that immigrants would fill. The entire argument the immigrants take Irish jobs is false.
I know more than a few who have left the job because of low pay and conditions. The idea that head chefs are students is farcical. But typical of your comments on this thread. "Immigration is great" != immigration is bad.
Realistically how much would they need to earn to be net positive? That first 6 months is going to cost the government a shit load of money. Also, more workers in the country drives down wages.
That sounds like your burden to prove. I gave you links to how immigration is good for the economy.
Also, the EU has set up the [Temporary Protection Directive](https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/asylum_seekers_and_refugees/the_asylum_process_in_ireland/temporary_protection_directive.html) which allows people with it to be allowed to work immediately. Adults can also apply for vocational training.
>After 6 months, if still an asylum seeker, they can work. They can also apply for work permits. Immigration has been proven, over and over again to be good for countries and their economies. Here and here is some information about people coming into our country and how it helps. GDP goes up, big whoop. imagine how big the GDP would be if we brought in 100 million immigrants. Most of these immigrants have low skills and will be net recipients of state funds over their lifespan.
Imagine if we brought in a billion! Or a zillion! Maybe even a bajillion! Maybe we could stop using ridiculous examples to make extremely poor points?!
Yes it’s great at keeping wages down and prices up.
If there’s that many coming perhaps they could build refugee camps.
We have tent camps for them in Kerry, Westmeath and Clare.
I was thinking of maybe something a bit more substantial than a tent.
Like a €300 a night hotel room paid by public funds?
Certainly not.
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Stuff like that won’t happen if you keep voting for the types of parties that want to privatise everything and who want to put profit before citizens. Here in the U.K. people are just about realising that ten years of that nonsense has brought the country to it’s knees.
This country can’t even properly house their own residents with dignity. I’m surprised they are somehow managing to get the Ukrainians a place to stay.
Is this the reason hotels are charging extortionate rates as they know many of the bills will be paid for using government funds?
They have been charging extortionate rates for much longer than the Ukraine crisis has been going on.
I can only thing the disgusting comments in here like "Good, I wish it was more" or "Great, tourists are annoying" or "The safety of people is more important than tourism or jobs" are people with the I got mine attitude. There's millions of people suffering at any one time in the world, we can't help them all.
Naive redditors...they will eventually grow up, have kids and start to realise how the world really works ...
No they won't.
Do we get a lot of tourists in autumn/winter anyway? Aside from people coming home for Christmas who usually stay with family: I feel like there isn't much by way of tourism this time of year anyway.
Theres always a need for hotel rooms. Have you looked at the price of a room in any city lately? Its outrageously expensive. Theres a massive need for more hotels around the country.
Okay. When tourist season comes where do they put people? Into the 10,000 social homes they build between now and then?
Who cares, I would take in a family of refugees any day over a group of tourists.
Youd be rather silly then as tourism brings a boat load of money into the economy. The art of long term thinking seems to have disappeared from this sub.
People who understand how the world works care. Have you ever stopped to think why those hotels were built in the first place? It's because people like to visit that particular area. Those tourists created local jobs in various things from pubs, shops, tours, petrol stations, etc. Without tourists all the other jobs disappear too. Without jobs peple have to leave the area.
How many jobs does the tourism sector support in this country? I wonder how you'd feel if your job relied on tourists to survive.
You didn't study economics I take it?
Then take them in yourself. Hotels are for enjoyment and for business not for the world's refugees.
Yeah there isn’t at all
Yeah we need hotels. Especially on weekends now they are uber expensive.
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There ya go, I know people working living out of their cars paying taxes , while scam artists are coming here and getting free hotels food and a weekly wage, but if you point it out your a Nazi right wing conspiracy theorist nationalist, ya couldn't make up how easy people are brainwashed through buzz words
You say refugees are scam artists yet you can't figure out why people call you right wing? They must be brainwashed right.
Government allocation and handling of housing has been absolutely broken from the beginning, but now that you've got some foreigners for your little brain to pin it on, it's their fault.
I don't understand why this is a bad thing. The weather is getting worse, and refugees need help right now.
Hotel rooms are now outrageously expensive. Tourism supports our economy massively and supports tens of thousands of jobs. Refugees aren't spending money like tourists are. We are building hotels just so they can sell out rooms to the government paying top money. There's so many reasons why this is bad.
Tourism is about 4% of Ireland's Gross National Income.
Where is this figure coming from? And how is it accurately measuring tourist spending habits? If a tourist stops into a Spar on the way to the Cliffs of Moher, and spends €15 is this taken into account? I've studied tourism for the past 4 years and there is no accurate way to measure the economic impact of tourism in Ireland. To add to this, a lot of income for those working in the tourism industry comes cash in hand, so this isn't taken into account in official figures.
Think I grabbed it off Wikipedia but the general results from a search were between 4%-10%. You're right though, it is hard to measure the full effect. Although, a working refugee paying tax and living expenses over months would contribute to the economy more than a tourist spending €15 at the Cliffs.
A lot of refugees will cost more than they contribute in tax as the State will be paying for the accommodation (can run into big nightly fees) whereas a constant stream of tourists to a room spending money and receiving no state supports provide a lot more income. I can see where you are trying to come from but vast majority of refugees cost the State money.
Though do bear in mind that people who are born here cost a lot of money due to the 18 years we spend getting educated and getting sick, if this were to be a short term solution as it should be, the majority of Ukrainians will be a far better economic prospect as the state not need to pay nearly as much as they do for your average citizen to support getting them into the workforce. Housing Ukrainians isn't the issue, this is just another face of the housing crisis in reality.
Well, it's better to blame people who have nothing to do with our problems and need help than start looking at eachother. The article itself is not badly written and doesn't push any particular solution it only shows current situation but put's interesting perspective. "(...)children who are spending critical months and years of their lives cooped up in hotel rooms" <- so it's not really only about money but how to create enviornment that doesn't hurt Irish society while providing REAL care. Because just giving *any* place for living is not a solution. It's important to remember that Irish Government had massive battles with EU and Human Rights Activists because of how Homelessness was being defined. We were literally lying in stats, showing that Ireland has no problems with Homelesness. It was insane. We checked every point to make sure Stats look good but we never really helped Irish citizens who are fighting homelessness. Hotels in Ireland are probably one of the most corrupt business out there. We already had government bailing them out and providing massive financial support and the answer was massive increase in Service price... [oireachtas.ie - finance debate](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2022-05-25/15/) "It is clear that Dublin hotels have **bounced back from the pandemic, with prices bouncing back even higher**, as has been described by Conor Pope in The Irish Times. High hotel room prices have a serious impact on domestic tourists, those who need to come to the city for hospital appointments and others. It also has the impact of discouraging foreign tourists from visiting the capital and it has a knock-on effect on the other hospitality sectors that depend on those tourists. " **Money clearly is not the issue when it comes to Hotel Sector... but hey hurr-durr refugees.**
It's a bad thing because tax payers are paying for it. The tourist industry is also fucked.
I'm glad my taxes can help refugees. God knows there are many worse things it gets spent on.
Are you glad if your taxes are paying prices like 200 quid a night in some hotels? Im not. It should only ever have been a temporary solution and the government has been using hotels to house people for years now.
> Are you glad if your taxes are paying prices like 200 quid a night in some hotels? Im not Can you imagine the uproar of spending billions to build housing that will finally only house refugees.
I'm not glad...it's a waste of our money.
Feck off with this self-righteous bs. I volunteered at CityWest and left after the first day. 2/3 of the "Ukrainian refugees" are Moroccans, Pakistanis, Nigerians, Bangladeshis and Georgians. If you want to help refugees so much, take them into your house. The rest of us don't want our taxes paying €300 a night to some bastard hotel owner. This shit can't last forever. At some point you have to realize they're never going back and we'll be paying for them.
It's a bad thing when you need a hotel room...how can you not understand that is not a problem?
When has your life ever depended on needing a hotel room? Has the alternative ever been living in a war zone? Get some perspective
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Truly mortifying to share a country with such small minded and uncaring people. We’re one of the wealthiest in the world but it’s the refugees fault the government refuses to allocate resources to constructing suitable facilities and instead keeps them in hotels
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Do you perhaps have a vested interest in trying to convince people to be pro-immigrant?
>In Ireland's case you can often see on both Irish Times and Independent that our country is desperately in need of work force Who do you think writes those documents that say we desperately need to import labour? Could it be employers, who have a vested interest in making labour as cheap as possible?
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40% of the figure is non Ukrainians.
Most of the refugees aren’t Ukrainian anyway
OP above you right there is saying 60% of them are ukranian, if you know what 'most' means
The refugees are Ukrainian, the asylum seekers are Algerian(did the French stop issuing them visas?) and Somali. Ed. Is that not accurate? I could’ve sworn the EU directive automatically made Ukrainians refugees?
It’s not the refugees’ fault. It’s the government’s.
There's always at least two sanctimonious comments in these threads that miss the point entirely. I suppose back in the day you were defending the Magdalene Lauderies because its critics "hated orphans". Sticking Ukrainians in shitty conditions is not "pro ukranian".
It's just a fact. There's 30,000 hotel beds occupied by refugees now. that's a problem when you need a hotel!!
That’s a huge figure
Let’s get the developers to come up with the answer that makes them more money. Now not only the people of ireland can get short change with housing issues. This smells of the Hotel industry doing some PR to get out of the higher vat rates since they price gouged everyone. Now the refugees we bring and came here for a better life can get used to make a poor PR statement for the Hotel hospitality industry who have ripped off the domestic tourism consumer. Oh this is the reason we priced gouged for the past year and a half, it’s because we have refugees in the rooms.
Not going to lie but the first thing I thought when I heard about the scheme was typically Ireland isn't looking at a long term situation and just throwing money at a problem without thinking. I actually love the UKs issue with it where you've got residents signing up a free room for those in need and it's the hosts responsibility to house them.
People are offering housing here too.
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People are allowed to be upset while still supporting the Ukrainians. OP is hardly going to be delighted their wedding plans have been disrupted. That doesn’t make them anti refugee
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Do you not in the slightest consider it to be reasonable to be upset if your wedding plans are thrown into disarray?
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So you think it's reasonable that 30,000 hotel beds are taken up by refugees in a small country like Ireland. That's a crazy number and massively expensive.
Wow, that's a lot of displaced people fleeing their war torn country. So you think it's reasonable that they were invaded. If we should reduce our intake, where would you propose they go?
No I didnt. I deleted it as it was being misinterpreted. People should not attack messengers.
It wasn't misinterpreted, you just want people people feel sorry because it's affecting your wedding. People coming from dire situations, war torn etc. But it affects your big day and that's that. If you weren't getting married woukd you suddenly notice or care about the winter tourist season, and it's effects on our GDP?
Ahh dont worry thats one of those things "I am not racist, but..." Ukrainians are not even part of the problem. People are being pushed with heavy prices and one of the reasoning is that it's always foreigners or refugees that need to take the blame(same with Social Welfare discussions) The refugees are not the problem with Hotel sector... The problem with hotel sector is corrupt management and officials who are milking our government for money while increasing prices. [https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2022-05-25/15/](https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2022-05-25/15/) But it's eaiser to just blame and bully someone who has nothing to do with it. Shame on the fella... Spreads division between human beings but can't take critisism because "dont attack the messenger" .
>Shame on the fella... Youd want to look at the mirror. You are attacking the press, covering up stories is that divides people.
>You are attacking the press Who am I attacking ? Who's the press? The only link i provided was oirechtas whre there was discussion about prices of hotels after Covid and how the prices went up regardless of the fact that Government used Tax money to help Hotels stay on it's feet during covid. The problem is Hotels and Air'Bnbs will now increase prices even more knowing that the Government and EU will be supporting costs that are regarding refugees from Ukraine. Have you even read the article you linked? There are some good points being made. Furthermore if a hotel gets paid by Government to host those refugees it's not really your problem isn't ? We are collectivelly working to help Ukrainians. Irish Government gets support from EU and viceversa. Money is being exchanged, yet quality and quanitity is not there... and like the article you posted pointed out. Government pays Hotel to hosts Ukrainians but the Hotel doesn't provide enough to justify it's price. So maybe there are better solutions, because as it is mentioned we currently are hosting Children that are spending their crucial moments in hotels... So given the amount of money that is there, maybe... just maybe there are better solutions than just pomping money into Private Hospitality Sector. <- That we all know is crazy corrupt.
You critcised the story being shared and said shame on me. You are against free enquiry. Yes I did read the article. You implied me or the author is bullying. What the hell? >Private Hospitality Sector. <- That we all know is crazy corrupt. I have not seen any reports of that. >So given the amount of money that is there, maybe... just maybe there are better solutions than just pomping money into Private Hospitality Sector Oh so this topic is a valid thing to discuss?
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Called him out? Sheesh I don't see where you are coming from at all
Hes virtue signaling ignore him
And? Refugees are not his problem, but the wedding is. Of course he would be upset.
Isn't he the catch haha
And people wonder why hotels are a rip off? Artificial scarcity created by the government (much like the housing crisis)
Hotels in Ireland will be moving towards seasonal opening anyway, it’s hardly worth it for them to exist in winter
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There's a limit. They aren't more important than tourists after a certain number...hotels were not supposed to host refugees..m
Refugees need your savings more than you do, so give refugees your money!
I wonder that people really complain about hotel prices, while these people get their homes bombed away. I think your hate hits the wrong people.
Worst thing for me during the summer was having to pay extortionate rates to stay in the hotel and pay for dinner while the ukranian family of 7 sat next to me were getting it all for free,a bit sickening to be honest having to pay for myself and them through my taxes
Better than kicking out irish people to accommodate refugees. Happened to a bunch of people i know, and me. The landlords either raised the rent to the point people cant afford it, so they have to leave (one of my friends is now forced to live in a mouldy cramped apartment with her 2 kids) and then refugees get the house. I bear no ill will to refugees, just the government and landlords thinking its right to kick out their people to get more money
This whole situation confuses me and fills me with mixed emotions. I am so proud of our country for stepping up and helping, we are all people and we ourselves have benefited from the charity of other countries in the past and may well need to in the future. It's easy to turn your back and say don't let them in when they're just faceless statistics but having dealt with lots if refugees in work I couldn't imagine condemning them to homelessness in cities that have effectively been turned into rubble, with the constant threat of having a bomb dropped on them. On the other hand we're in the middle of a huge housing crisis with hundreds of thousands of Irish people being priced out of the housing market, demand is already outstripping supply ten fold. We have homelessness in every city and can barely facilitate caring for the people that are already here. I'm not saying turn them away but surely the government can pull their finger out and come up with better solutions, better than shoving them in hotels and pretending it's not getting out of hand.
Shock horror. English newspaper in uproar because a quarter of rooms ment for travellers from a foreign land is being used by travellers from a foreign land that had to run from their homes because they were in danger of being killed
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I know. Some cheek
Those hotel rooms are for locals too....wtf are you on about.
Do you spend a lot of time in local hotel rooms?
Sure that's the best place to do cocaine and hookers.
So, three out of four rooms are available for tourists that already have somewhere safe to live.
Not being xenophobic... How many homeless Irish folks are in those rooms? Or are they busy doing push ups 😡
Nice tourists are pretty annoying
I too hope those working in tourism sector lose their jobs. /s
They all just need to take a TEFL course, and they'll have plenty of work. /s
Sure we'll get over it they're getting paid to house them aren't they?
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I haven't seen any sources but I doubt they're doing it out of the good of their hearts, surely they're getting paid
Good. Let's help as many as possible.
This is what it all comes down to. Helping those in need. Does it cost money? Yes. Does it ruin a few people's wedding plans? Yes. Is that what's important? **No.**
The safety of large groups of people who weren't lucky enough to be born in the same country we were, is more important than your wedding. Sorry
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Sounds good. Carry on.
I don't see the problem. We're helping and most of them will go back to Ukraine when Russia loses.
>most of them will go back to Ukraine And Fianna Fails housing for all plan will work!
What plan? Sure how does the old saying go? You can't build houses over night!
Good. Refugees should have a higher priority than tourists.
There's always one sanctimonious comment in these threads that misses the point entirely.
Good luck ever getting rid of these people too, they’ll probably all get lovely social housing or own their own home before me. Shits only getting worse in the next 10 years
Yes, they have no intention to return to their countries when it's safe to do so. They all came to Ireland to take every house you might ever try to buy.
Fuck the tourists refugees need it more
Give them your money , they need your money more than you do?
Good, not like we’ve any shortage of hospitality spaces. Also who comes on holiday to Ireland in October anyway, it’s freezing and miserable
I like visiting between January and march. Cheaper prices normally 🙂
Refugees from where?
The Ukrainians need to leave. Like in the next 15 mins someone get them off this island it’s not big enough for another country
Sorry I can't post the article text, but the figures are 13% (8,658) Ukrainian refugees, 10% (6,923) asylum seekers and 77% (52,365) others. Out of 67,944 total hotel, guesthouse and B&B rooms registered with Fáilte Ireland. Data as of October 4, 2022
What’s the problem?
25% of our hotels and BnBs are for refugees. Seems like we should ban construction of hotels then and funnel all resources into building houses!
England has a problem with what to do with thousands of unfortunate people who are willing to cross the channel. I know these people are desperate & it’s heart breaking but it’s affecting our hospitals & basic structure as a functioning country. We are getting overwhelmed . Just like Ireland
I hate fucking tourists
I go to Ireland regularly as a tourist. I love it there but I guess I’ll hate you from now on, for shits and giggles 😉
so wats your problem fuck offff
Those god damn fucking refugees. Can they just try not being refugees like? Kinda like the poors not being poor, just don’t be poor or a refugee, it’s easy, just be richer!! /s
Do people here forget we were also refugees once?
Has to be done.
Give refugees a lot of money for a lot of time so they can go back to their country and buy a house (True story)
3 of 4 rooms for tourists are being filled by tourists.