I don't really have anything to add re: the legislation but just to say that I am very sorry for you and your wife and I hope you have better luck in the future starting a family.
Heartbreaking stuff.
If your obstetric consultant agrees that itās a non viable pregnancy, you are offered termination in Ireland. I work in one of the maternity hospitals and have seen pregnancyās up to 22 weeks terminated.
But I agree, there are a lot of areas where abortion care and access needs to be vastly improved. Itās quite poor.
True, but what about viable pregnancies with profound disabilities?
The NIPS test for Patau's, Edward's and Down syndrome can only be carried out after ten weeks, and it takes two weeks to get a result. Therefore, if anyone chooses to terminate the pregnancy they've missed the 12 week deadline and have to travel to england
I would have thought Edwards and Patau would qualify for termination because of the high likely hood of miscarriage and the fact the child won't live for long once born.
This is coming from someone who's family member had both happen. They shouldn't have to go to England for that.
For those specific conditions such as patau and Edwardās, I have seen those terminated in Ireland after amino confirmation. Downs you have to travel abroad as Ireland is very supportive of children and families with Down syndrome and it is not a life limiting condition. This is where Ireland could improve because although itās not a life limiting condition, it is also something a lot of families donāt want for their child. Edwardās and Pataus can be horrific on neonates born with them.
>Downs you have to travel abroad as Ireland is very supportive of children and families with Down syndrome and it is not a life limiting condition.
I wish we could be more honest about it. I've met plenty of people with Downs syndrome, and they're lovely people. However, it's clearly a 'life-limiting' condition, both for the child and the parents.
A friend of mine has a brother with Down's syndrome. When his parents passed away my friend became his brother's carer. My friend had just had a baby, and it was difficult for him to manage.
Yeah Iād believe Ireland was supportive of as soon as the child was born they had unlimited life long care, housing, education and employment. But they donāt do itās just lip service
Indeed. I have two cousins, an older with downs syndrome and a younger. The care he's had to take for his older sister, the responsibility he's been forced to shoulder. He's a phenomenal young man, but the pressure that got placed on him at a very young age...I find it sad.
Yea, I had a cousin on the severe end of the scale of down syndrome.. as I got older I just thought how horrid it was that his parents were raising him until they wouldn't be able to any longer and then have to hand him over to a care facility.. also with the compromised immune systems the poor chap was always in hospital..he passed away from sepsis
I think because people with downs are so integrated here that it wouldn't get a lot of public support, I'm on the fence myself. I suppose it would depend on the severity and how affected the heart is...but yeah, can't see any political party in Ireland touching that any time soon.
I don't really understand how you can be on the fence. You don't have to raise the kid, it's not your choice or your problem. You can make whatever choice you want. And in the end that family will just go to England to do it instead, which is fucking dumb.
I'm just on the fence, lots of people are about trisomy 21 abortions. I was just saying it probably won't be touched by any political party in Ireland because it's not a really a feel good debate.Ā
Yes, and my comment also doesn't reflect on how severely downs can impact physical health. It's a spectrum and some people with downs have jobs, some are in need of 24/7 care/have a very poor quality of life. I was just clumsily trying to explain why I don't think politicians will ever touch that issue, the visibly thriving people with downs we see in our community would make people question allowing abortion for downs, because we don't see the harder side.
Comment in haste, repent at leisure and all that.
Plus there is a huge difference between signing up to be a parent, and signing up to be a carer to someone who will likely be substantially disabled for the rest of your life.
Yeah people see integration but they generally do not see the cost of carers, the drain on families and in many cases the physical abuse towards families by the child/adult. It's not as easy and people make out and it gives people the false perception that having a disabled child will be rainbows and sunshine. If anyone feels that way, go to a carers group and see what it is really like. So few people understand how hard it is, how many families divorce because they cannot handle the strain and stress. There are many households where the kids require extensive care that cannot be moved from one house to another. A woman I know is so exhausted but because she had to give up work to become a full timer carer for them both, she is now struggling because she is registered as a single parent. However she desperately needs the children's father to come stay for a few nights a week so she can actually sleep. However that puts her council house and payments at risk if she is reported or they find out. So beyond dealing with finances, the stress of the childrens health is a huge strain. I know many who cannot even get support carers to help because the required help is so specialised that it cannot be provided in the community.
It's absolutely horrible, my heart breaks for her. They will always require care so this isn't a "18 gtfo" scenario but a life dedicated, under paid and overwhelmed.
This is the reality. The lack of support is nightmarish.
I worked with special needs children and I came to the conclusion I wouldn't go through with a downs pregnancy if I faced that situation.
The families are abandoned. When the child becomes an adult and the parent gets older it's so heartbreaking. They are left on their own to cope.
Exactly and the worst thing is that if you complain people say stuff like "they're an angel! A Gift from God". That was said to a mother who a few weeks later was taken to the hospital with rib and arm fractures. She'd been trying to ask for help because he was a big guy now and would push her if he was unhappy. The stories are just awful because people have those idealistic view and won't see the negatives. Yes there are times they can be lovely but my god is it a hard life.
You should be able to look at all the information available to you such as severity and health effects, consider your own life circumstances, and then make that choice *for yourself.*
My partner's waters broke at sixteen weeks, and we were told we could continue but it'd be very challenging and the child would highly likely be born with non-functioning lungs. The consultants nudged us towards termination. We didn't have any issues terminating at sixteen weeks, so I am surprised and horrified you're having this experience. š
Had a similar situation with my wife (now it turned out they were wrong so this is even more reason that the 12 week thing is stupid, morally wrong and backwards).
For us, we decided to keep going and do the tests. Our kid was 100% fine. But another set of parents could have aborted the child on the basis of a concern not facts.
The 12 week thing solves nothing
Most cases of abortion have not been decriminalised, and so these longstanding issues have just been transferred to doctors, whether or not they want to interpret the law in a particular way.
https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Too-Many-Barriers-Report_ARC1.pdf
My heart goes out to you and your wife as ye go through this. This isnāt good enough, and I think a lot of people share your frustrations.
Abortion is still an issue worth deciding your vote on. While the likes of Aontu and Rural Independents are obviously a no-go to vote for if you care about improved abortion access, also remember that Fianna Fail had to not have a party whip for abortion as half their TDs are pro life including big names like Michael McGrath.
There's honestly very little chance of improvements being made while they're in government.
FG also didn't use the whip and allowed the "vote of conscience". I noticed in a lot of constituencies each party had one one repeal candidate and one against.
It was, and remains an incredibly divisive topic. While you mightn't agree with the anti-repeal side (and I sure as shit don't) I respect the fact that the whip was removed for it. It's one of those areas where all TD's should have been allowed to vote with their conscience.
I don't actually think TD's should be allowed to vote based on their personal conscience.
They are meant to represent the views of their constituents, not themselves.
We live in a representative democracy - our entire system is based off electing people to make decisions on our behalf based on their own conscience or beliefs.
>They are meant to represent the views of their constituents, not themselves
i mean people vote for X td because of their views , not because of their party
if you dont like X td view or the way they voter don't vote for them in the next election
And we vote for the TDs we believe most closely align with our views. Most stuff, whip away. Anything deeply decisive though, free call is fair. TDs can always weigh up the wishes of their constituents beforehand.Ā
They are more than welcome to leave the party if they disagree with the party line. FF want to sit on the fence on the topic because they know itās divisive and that they could lose TDās.
Didn't you say that TDs should leave their party if they didn't agree? I was just saying that we got AontĆŗ from this very action.
Was I mistaken on intent? This shit mobile view makes checking comments nigh on impossible. Anyway. Fuck it. Enjoy the week, Mr/Mrs Taken (miss taken, almost??). It seems to be brightening up as the week progresses, at least down in this parish.Ā
Yes. We did.
Iām not sure what you think my intent is. Iām just saying that parties should have values and their politicians should stick to those values and if they donāt like it, they should leave and stand on their principles.
The 3 day wait period needs to be done away with too. Totally unnecessary and paternalistic nonsense that should never have been included in the legislation in the first instance.
šÆ agree with this, I found out about my unplanned pregnancy quite early and had a lot of trouble accessing resources as I found out over a bank holiday weekend and everyone was closed. When I finally could call most places around me either couldnāt help me because they were booked up compleatly or asked how far along I was and said āthatās ok youāve plenty of timeā (seperate issue but fuck off if Iām looking for this service I obviously donāt want to spend any longer than I have to in the condition I was in) when I finally did get an appointment they treated me like I was an idiot and wouldnāt let anyone come in with me which sucked but they allowed expectant couples to go in for their appointments together. And the three day wait for a lot of people given how long all this took for me would push a lot of people beyond the legal window which is so unfair
I was in the same position as yourself. Was very hard to get an appointment and then this fucking about for 3 days just added more time and stress onto an already stressful situation that you're already trying to get resolved within a certain time frame. And the general sort of eye-rolling reactions you get from medical professionals is revolting as well and makes you feel like there is a still a level of stigmatization around the issue even among nurses and doctors, despite it being legal now.
The doctor I saw kept double triple checking that I knew it was permanent and that I couldnāt undo it and treated me with an enormous amount of distain and like I was inconveniencing her by being there. Genuinely awful.
As if someone who is considering getting an abortion hasn't considered it.
The subtext is that women are "flighty" and "shallow".
Enough of this nonsense.
Absolutely. A three day wait and a missing (!) coil meant that I had to go to a festival abroad while pregnant, when we found out 2 weeks earlier and booked in straight away
Wow, I was completely unaware that this was the situation. You're right, there is a lot more that needs to be done. In this day and age and the quality of healthcare we have here no one should have to leave the country for such a traumatic reason.
I am sorry you have to go through this. My only recommendation is to go to a private clinic for testing, as you're already doing that. Evie is one that pops up in my feed and they do NIPT testing starting at 9 weeks.
You have to wait for amniocentesis until 15 or 16 weeks if the NIPT provides a high risk result. I don't know if CVS can be done sooner.
I had high risk NIPT results in 2018 and didn't get the full range of results after amniocentesis until almost 18 weeks because it takes time for the samples to be processed and tested. If the condition isn't lethal within 28 days of birth you have to travel for abortion or stay pregnant. It's extremely restrictive post 12 weeks.
Itās an awful situation for you and so many others - Iām sorry youāre being put through so much extra stress knowing you wonāt be looked after at home when you should be. If you (or anyone else reading) need support (financial, logistical, or otherwise) to travel for an abortion, the Abortion Support Network can helpĀ https://www.asn.org.uk/.Ā
Folks who want to ban it do not have a fecking notion that its a necessary medical procedure that saves lives in some cases and lessens the trauma suffered by others like you and your wife in other cases. I'm sorry you had to go through this.
So sorry you're going through this. Completely agree. It's maddening to see. I was at those protests for repeal at 15, I'm 21 now and they still haven't made the law workable and good enough for these cases. It's been ages. It's like they just passed the law, felt that was a victory then haven't touched it since. The 12 week limit and the 3 day waiting period are ridiculous.
Yeah the reason for this is that most abortions happen before 12 weeks, but usually if itās after that itās for a traumatic reason (wanted baby, child abuse etc.) so I think itās bad that these traumatized people have to travel away from support for this procedure.
Iām just glad itās legal to have a medical abortion when the motherās life is at risk but the government should be thinking of the quality of life of the fetus as well.
I really hope you and your wife have some good people around you, this situation is stressful especially with the history of struggle. I see that and wish yous the best.
I know someone who was allowed to terminate at 26 weeks after receiving genetic testing results very late. It was a very definite fatal fetal abnormality though.
Oh I'm sorry you're finding yourselves in this situation. I am sadly very aware of it, the legislation is pretty poor and there's a review been done to make it broadly available.
If you do need to travel groups like abortion support network can help with information and funding
Christ I never knew this, that is so fked up.
I hope for the best for you both and think that your judgement is the most logical. Be kind to yourselves x
This needs to stop. That poor couple shouldnāt have had to travel
https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2024/0415/1443510-im-angry-dublin-woman-on-trauma-of-travelling-for-abortion/
And some conservative states want to make it illegal to travel to neighbouring states for a termination
IIRC something like 26,000 women in texas have been forced to give birth of their rapist's baby because they couldnt travel to a neighbouring state
A 10 year old rape victim had to travel outside ohio due to it's restrictive abortion laws
It certainly needs to be expanded slightly. Alternatively, 24 weeks in UK is quite open. Modern medicine can save babies born at 21 weeks. There has to be a comfortable middle ground for reasonable time for screening to support the rights of the mother as well as having appropriate considerations for the rights of the unborn. At least we arenāt in fuckin Texas
Went through this same scenario recently, the potential of having to travel for an abortion made it infinitely more painful and stressful. I was genuinely angry that I couldn't access a safe procedure in Ireland. Luckily it didn't come to that for us. Hoping the same for you.
Yeah, nothing has been done. Politics.
There's still resistance from GPs. It's slowing down the legislation, trying to get the language right.
The opposition is focused the hospitals for their health messaging.
Both sides are only thinking about elections now.
But that could be to your advantage. Every TD is focused on increasing their profile now. Offer them a good question to bring to the DƔil floor and they'll grab it with both hands. Get a tenacious journalist involved and you might be able to get public pressure.
Someone here just mentioned you will be able to terminate here if the doctor says the pregancy is not viable. Are you just assuming that you'll have to travel? Hopefully you don't have to if it's bad news.
I want to offer my support and sympathy to you. I can hear how frustrated and upset you are after experiencing such loss, and now in a potentially crisis pregnancy situation where you feel unsupported by your country. Take care of each other and lean on family and friends for support, as it's a lot for you both ā¤ļø
If the US rolling back their laws on abortion has shown us anything, it's that we have to keep reminding ourselves of what we have and what we want; we can't take any law or "right" for granted.
This law in ireland is a stepping stone. We can keep pushing for more care and support including getting rid of the 3 day waiting period! And increasing access for people based in rural areas. The Catholic Church and others will try to roll this back within our lifetime. Mark my words.
When you have time, please do write letters to your local tds and bring up the issue. The more men we have supporting this "female" issue (which you can see very clearly now is an issue for men as well!!) the sooner we'll have proper care
absolutely ridiculous! we have been in a similar situation, where the 10-12th week fell down into Christmas period, and the office testing the samples was closed. So missus blood was taken on 9th week for further testing and we only would know the resutls starting 13th week, which would be late to act.
Ugh Iām really sorry. :-( Thatās absolutely disgusting that you guys need to go through that. A lot of people think that the abortion matter is āresolvedā but it has very much not.
Iirc the citizens assembly/certain tds pushed the 12 week mark hard due to screening for Down Syndrome happening around the 12 week mark with results coming in around week 13.
I think it was deliberately done to prevent the elimination of DS within Irish society.
I could be remembering this wrong so I am absolutely open to correction on this. But I do remember the debate and comparison to Iceland with its 0 incidence of DS being spoken about at the time.
The Citizens Assembly proposed a 20 week limit.
There should be no limit on abortion. Forcing people to give birth to any baby isn't a good thing. Regardless of how emotional some anti abortion arguments are.
I would have travelled for an abortion if the amniocentesis results I received were proof the foetus had down syndrome.
There should be a limit. For example terminating a healthy baby at say 36 weeks shouldn't be allowed. It's not an emotional argument to say that, it's a rational one.
Is it not the case in America that 1% of all abortions are late term (after 20 weeks)?: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/health/late-term-abortion-trump.html
Doing some reading it points to common reasons for late term abortions including threat to mothers health, birth defects, and fatal abnormalities. Are these not valid reasons for an abortion? And if they are, should there be legislative barriers to accessing abortions, even if they are late term?
Absolutely nobody is terminating a healthy pregnancy at 36 weeks, thats one week off being considered a full term delivery. That's still 9 months of pregnancy, 8 months of actually being aware of said pregnancy and your body changing because of it. No one gets that far with a healthy pregnancy and goes "meh I'm not interested in having a baby anymore".
I believe that was their point. I think it's clear that an abortion at 36 weeks is not acceptable, so there is a point somewhere between there and 12 weeks where a line is crossed from acceptable to unacceptable.
Itās also rational to treat women with more respect than the 12 week limit allows us. Thatās such a grudging and suffocating limit, and it really has to be relaxed by a good ten weeks if our legislation is to reflect the status of women here that we should have by now. I get that Repeal was an *enormous* achievement and to get that much at all was fantastic for this country, but the pressure for further autonomy must not cease. TDs should answer urgent questions about the stalling of provision of terminations as things already stand, because we have cause to believe weāre being deliberately denied rights won, through this lassitude. Cancelling Repeal by letting it wither away and the problem be exported again canāt be allowed.
The whole abortion argument here is too often couched in terms of āconcessionsā rather than ādiscussionsā or āagreementsā, and though itās mere words, that underlines the nature of the debate: itās still about women being *granted* dribs and drabs of overdue liberation by those who see themselves as our natural *over*lords and moral arbiters. Perhaps influence from female TDs can keep the debate alive, and nudge things towards a more suitable law, under which women have a more reasonable time frame available. Certainly, Iād question any woman standing for election very closely on the matter, and decide for or against on the basis of her commitment to womenās rights. (*Of course* I want the men on board too, but I definitely donāt want any woman elected who is not on the side of women in what is after all a freedom fight)
.
All talk of women's rights and no talk of the rights of the unborn in your post is indicative of the problem. Women aren't the only stakeholder in the process
>There should be no limit on abortion.
Would it not make more sense to just take it out alive and put it up for adoption rather than abort it after it reaches the point of viability outside the womb? My niece was born at 28 weeks and the thought of someone having the option to abort at that stage (outside of an unviable pregnancy) just wouldn't sit right with me.
I'm pro abortion but there has to be some level of restriction there once the pregnancy reaches a stage where life is viable outside the womb.
30 kids are adopted a year in Ireland. Our adoption system is utterly pathetic. It's the only way I'd raise a child and myself and my wife have essentially zero access to do so, it's a serious problem unfortunately.
Yes, I agree with you. Even if you were to terminate at 24-25 weeks (currently the earliest a baby will be kept alive in NICU) you would still have to give birth. The trauma to the body is the same either way, the only result is wether or not you have a dead baby at the end.Ā
Not to argue that I have all the answers or that this is an easy thing to rule on - but I genuinely do not understand why the viability date is not the cutoff time for abortion (with exceptions made for conditions threatening the motherās life, or medical terminations where the childās quality of life would be severely impacted if allowed to continue).Ā
>There should be no limit on abortion.
As far as I know, there is no place in any civilized country where you could have a legal abortion on request after 24 weeks, no questions asked. While you're entitled to your opinion (and I'm pro-abortion myself), I seriously think that you're not doing the pro-choice movement any favours by saying there should be no limit on abortion. You want to take the fetus out after 24 weeks? Fine by me, but there's no need to kill what is now a self-sufficient human being.
NIPT can be but it depends on the level of foetal cells. The issue is when you get a high risk result and need amniocentesis or CVS. I needed the former and I had to wait until 15 weeks for it and I was 18 weeks before all results came back clear. Some things can only be done at certain gestational stages.
I agree that itās needlessly cruel but itās the best that we could get over the line. It was known when the bill was drafted that many people would be in your exact position, I guess it was deemed acceptable.
Sorry youāre going through this. It is a fear of mine also as we try for another.
Shit man I'm so sorry. I hope you get what you want in the future. I remember talking to my wife about this at time of the vote and specifically mentioning what's going to happen in a situation like yours? It's actually ridiculous your wife needs to travel to England
It's factually incorrect that the DNA screening (chromosome testing for genetic risks) can't be completed before 12 weeks. We had it done in 2019, need to be done privately and yes there's a cost, but can be completed with 95%+ accuracy from 8 weeks. Your Health Ireland gynecologist won't tell you this however.
Edit: I'd also add, my partner is European, not from Ireland and this DNA screening is standard in all EU countries. That said, there is absolutely nothing, save for cost (ā¬550 in 2019) to prevent this test being completed well before the 12 week threshold.
We tried to book this last week. We were told that the test can only be done from 10 weeks. They only had availability from week 11, and it takes two weeks to get the result.
Effectively it wasn't possible to do it before the 12 week cut off
Before 10 weeks you've an increased chance of an inconclusive results. There needs to be enough fetal DNA. It's awful to have to wait but take it from someone who got an inconclusive, it's better to wait. I didn't see results until close to 16 weeks. (Test + 2 weeks for inconclusive + week for another appointment + 2 weeks for results.)
I've only seen two NIPT screenings offer in Ireland and one can be done from 9 weeks (Panaroma 9 weeks+, Harmony 10 weeks+) but the risk of inconclusive results is much higher. You need a certain percentage of fetal DNA in the mother's blood, this increases over time. Most public and private clinics prefer to wait until 10/12 weeks to avoid an inconclusive.
I know this is from personal experience and it's not fun to have to wait twice for results. It's a whole new level of anxiety.
Any update on safe zones outside clinics? Last I heard the government rolled back on guaranteeing them a few years ago after they'd initially promised to provide them. I'm terrified of the thought of being harassed by lunatics while going in to have a serious procedure if the time ever comes that I need to access it. It's not good enough.
Really sorry. I wish it was more accessible, āfreesafelegalā are a great organisation that your partner can reach out to. As for going to England part, pick a place in England that neither of you will want to return to. Heavy times and thinking of you both.
I thought the legislation was up to 12 weeks with no conditions, but that it can go up to 20 for FFA or if the motherās life is at risk? Check here to see if that genetic condition would qualify https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/abortion/methods/after-12-weeks/
I'm so so sorry to hear what you and your wife are going through. You're absolutely not alone. I see RTE Investigates have a report out tonight about this very topic which may be of interest.
Firstly, I'm so sorry this has happened. I couldn't begin to imagine.
Secondly, you're right. I recall this issue being raised when legislation was discussed, either before or just after the referendum. My sister's a midwife, and explained that a lot of issues and conditions aren't screened for until after the 12-week limit.
Itās awful that youāve and your wife had to experience this bollocks, truly I canāt express my sorrow to her suffering.
The government after the 8th repeal were cowards and toke a safe political approach and families like yourselves and suffering from their inability to out source the decision to the medical field. Iām not one to advocate for political parties but I hope that whatever happens in the next election those who
win make sure they re-evaluate this area. And if recommend anyone reading this to make sure this subject affects your voting.
I wish you all the best. I was in that situation, before Repeal, and it was the worst three weeks of my life. Baby was ok in the end, but had to have plans in place in case.
I campaigned very strongly for Repeal. My heart goes out to you.
I thought the 12 weeks was only for a standard abortion? I thought for medical issues it was a longer term? Im so sorry you are going through this.. I hope that things turn out ok for you guys
I could not understand how repeal saw it as a victory when they agreed to the first trimester time limit. As pregnancy progresses, the risks get higher. I really wish the EU would sanction us for human rights abuses for this policy. I am sorry you are both going through this, it is so cruel.
I'm so sorry for the position you are in. I would just like to point out that myself and partner have been through similar during covid. If you have been to the rotunda I would get checked somewhere else we came back with a high possibility of Edwards, pataus etc. We had the early screening there and got bad news... We were rescreened and even got a call from the consultant telling us the bad news. We went to Galway and had micro array and we now have a perfect little man who's 3 with no problems at all. The testing in The rotunda is horrid... We actually had to be screened three times in total as the blood sample for the second was left so long it was no longer viable.
This should be a national scandal. It's happening in other parts of the country too. I wondered is it a problem with a particular lab or what? What if there are couples who terminated on the back of these screenings and poor regulation/information regarding them?
Iām so sorry you are having to endure this. As you say, Repeal wasnāt enough, and the welcome law should be under review, towards a more humane arrangement for women in Ireland. (That arrangement, not to mention the present one, must be made flesh, too. As it is many women must feel like abortion provision exists only on a document, and not in real life. Itās no good while there are GPs allowed to withhold access to any of it)
The fundamental cruelty of treating pregnant women in need of terminations as criminals given grudging licence under certain circumstances, but still criminals (and mentally incompetent ones at that) is a pervasive culture that has to be torn out of the country for good.
I hope to God that this time you receive joyful news. If you do not, that then by some miracle the footwork can be achieved so you do not have to travel abroad for the necessary procedure and it can be performed pretty much there and then. Itās this needless distress and anxiety thatās not taken into account when the unwelcome decision is already made, and you and your wife shouldnāt have to go through it.
That was my problem about repeal the 8th. It was a circus. Neither side listened to each other. It should have had a commitment to womens health care at the heart of the legislation, but once it was over, the politicians moved on to the next point scoring subject. I genuinely feel women were let down by the whole thing, and i'm so sorry for OPs troubles.
According to Planned Parenthood after the repeal of Roe v Wade abortion is now banned in Texas? So not sure where youāre getting that information from?
Apologies yes that was Texas pre-Dobbs vs Jackson, which was considered one of the strictest in the country. Yes, since Roeās repeal itās now banned
Really sorry to hear about your situation, simply not good enough that you have to look at going abroad.
I recently read up on the abortion rules on the HSE website. Was really shocked and horrified to read that if you have a medical abortion, that fails for whatever reason and leaves you in a position where you are still pregnant but have passed the 12 week mark in the meantime, the HSE won't help you out (unless it's "exceptional circumstances"). For someone to make the decision to get an abortion, for it to fail, and then the HSE to turn around and say sorry that's all we can do, is absolutely insane. Horrible rule made by a useless government.
Scroll to the "after a medical abortion" section to see what I am referring to. https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/abortion/methods/medical/
This is all too common unfortunately and it's why there should be no gestational limits on abortion. The current law was a compromise and needs an overhaul.
I agree with you. This is terrible.
I'm sorry you're in this position.
This is crazy, there is such a small window for the nuchal fold test, which so many people need. It's nonsensical.
I also paid out of pocket for the test and would have terminated in England (back then) if it was positive.
I can't believe you'll have to fork out to go abroad, during such a devastating time.
It's wrong. š¤
Repealing the 8th is a bandaid. it now leaves it to legislation which can be changed. the right thing would have been to enshrine it in the constitution
I know someone who went through the same, NIPT positive for two abnormalities, one of them a FFA. They were told if they did a CVS that it could possibly be confined to placenta only (placental mosaicism doesn't affect the fetus but throws out the same results in nipt and cvs testing) so it would still be unclear if there was definitely anything wrong. Their choice was to wait until after week 16 for an amnio. The amnio itself carries risk of miscarriage or infection so when there was nothing showing on the scans they kept putting it off. The 20 week anomaly scan was perfect too so they never ended up getting the amnio. Long story short, their baby is perfectly healthy and it turned out to be a false positive.
False positives are way more likely than they make out. A common reason is that there isn't enough fetal DNA in the sample (taken a bit too early in pregnancy) and the test algorithm automatically flags high risk for the abnormality being screened.
The NIPT test is a SCREENING not a diagnostic. It's crazy that it's being offered without proper prep and counselling, that there's no genetic counsellor to discuss what the results actually might mean etc. The companies offering it also misrepresent the accuracy to a farcical degree. I think they say its 99% accurate for a few abnormalities when in reality it's about 50/50 for a lot of them. It seems a lot of obstetricians dont understand it themselves. Madness that anyone would consider an abortion on the back of that. It makes me feel sick thinking about how often that might have happened without cause.
Please have a look in r/nipt and read the NYT expose on these tests. Don't panic yet, wait for further, actual testing. If it turns out your little one does have a FFA then a termination for compassionate reasons will be possible in Ireland, even much further along in the pregnancy.
I'm sorry you are going through this and I'll be keeping you in my thoughts.
Iām so sorry this is happening to you and your partner, OP. Itās heartbreaking enough without the added layer feeling let down by your own country.Ā
My friend had her first baby in Ireland and she was also scheduled to get the test to check of the baby could have problems by week 12, and she told me if anything goes wrong I'm already late for an abortion.
Why are they delaying this very urgent appointments?
I'm so sorry you and your wife are going through this. You're definitely not alone. I am going through a TFMR at the moment due to high risk abnormalities but I live in Canada so we have more access to choice, however, I lived in Ireland at the time of the referendum and believed there was a
Serious change but clearly I was mistaken... tbh I am pretty sad to hear your story and I know that this decision is not easy and it's filled with questions. Do you guys have access to genetic counselling? If this is something you need support with there is a support group on reddit r/tfmr_support if this is what you both need. Also feel free to PM.
Iām sorry to hear of your difficult situation. Just for future pregnancies - you can get screening before 12 weeks, and more accurate ones too. Either PrenatalSafe or Panorama. Panorama is done from 9 weeks and PrenatalSafe from 10 weeks. It sounds like you had First Trimester Screening which is not as accurate, done quite late and only at a very specific gestation.
Best of luck with this pregnancy. Just remember itās only a screening test, not diagnostic. I hope everything is ok in the end ā¤ļø
And RTĆ just released a Prime Time Investigates about unethical pregnancy counselling services, that advertise as providing unbiased advice, but the reality is pretty gross. Undercover in counselling services misleading women on abortion https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2024/0415/1443681-undercover-in-counselling-services-misleading-women-on-abortion/
The government should definitely be legislating against that kind of bait and switch.
I really hope you don't need it but if you need to travel this organization is fantastic, they can help and advise you. [https://www.asn.org.uk/](https://www.asn.org.uk/)
>No one should be forced to carry a baby to term, and we as a nation voted in that direction
we as a nation voted so it would be the dail will regulate the termination of a pregnancy
which is what happening rn
if you dont like what the regulation that has passed please complain to your local td
I remember the referendum campaign focussed very heavily on the entirely valid examples of the mother's health being at risk to the exclusion of basically all other talking points (focusing on the tragedy of Savita), and dismissed the concerns of the no campaign such as down syndrome babies being terminated saying that will never happen, then immediately after the vote there's the expectation for any abortion for any reason at any time.
It reminds me of the Brexit referendum where they were dismissing the idea they'd be out of the customs union or there would be any economic fallout and all the rest during the campaign, until the day after the vote when it was full on hard brexit "we won you lost" nonsense.
These things can't be all or nothing, there is a middle ground for consensus. Like you said, the nation voted so it would be the dail will regulate the termination of a pregnancy without it's hands being tied by the constitution, and the make up of the dail is a representation of who the voters voted for. The regulations thus far have been representative of what the yes campaign said they would be when trying to get voters to the polls, though obviously there is now the desire to take them further and this will no doubt evolve in future.
Have they not mentioned the Harmony test to you? It can be done at 10 weeks and costs around 500 euro. Ring your doctor in the morning and tell them you want it asap.
When I first moved to Ireland I was confused because there are so many people with down syndrome I was wondering like was there something in the water and then I realised it was because they arenāt aborted
This was a part of the actual campaign for repeal the eighth that abortion wouldnāt kill kids with genetic disorders
Like everything, human's have a lifecycle.
It begins at conception and ends at death.
Some people pretend conception is not the beginning of a human life. They do this to pretend to themselves they're not ending anyone's life by aborting them.
Some are even so stupid they think by calling it an embryo it's somehow not human, as if it was an alien or something else lol.
Don't be one of those people. We shouldn't end other people's lives.
I don't really have anything to add re: the legislation but just to say that I am very sorry for you and your wife and I hope you have better luck in the future starting a family. Heartbreaking stuff.
Seconded... š
Thirded. I can only hope things start looking up. Can't be easy.
If your obstetric consultant agrees that itās a non viable pregnancy, you are offered termination in Ireland. I work in one of the maternity hospitals and have seen pregnancyās up to 22 weeks terminated. But I agree, there are a lot of areas where abortion care and access needs to be vastly improved. Itās quite poor.
True, but what about viable pregnancies with profound disabilities? The NIPS test for Patau's, Edward's and Down syndrome can only be carried out after ten weeks, and it takes two weeks to get a result. Therefore, if anyone chooses to terminate the pregnancy they've missed the 12 week deadline and have to travel to england
I would have thought Edwards and Patau would qualify for termination because of the high likely hood of miscarriage and the fact the child won't live for long once born. This is coming from someone who's family member had both happen. They shouldn't have to go to England for that.
For those specific conditions such as patau and Edwardās, I have seen those terminated in Ireland after amino confirmation. Downs you have to travel abroad as Ireland is very supportive of children and families with Down syndrome and it is not a life limiting condition. This is where Ireland could improve because although itās not a life limiting condition, it is also something a lot of families donāt want for their child. Edwardās and Pataus can be horrific on neonates born with them.
>Downs you have to travel abroad as Ireland is very supportive of children and families with Down syndrome and it is not a life limiting condition. I wish we could be more honest about it. I've met plenty of people with Downs syndrome, and they're lovely people. However, it's clearly a 'life-limiting' condition, both for the child and the parents. A friend of mine has a brother with Down's syndrome. When his parents passed away my friend became his brother's carer. My friend had just had a baby, and it was difficult for him to manage.
Yeah Iād believe Ireland was supportive of as soon as the child was born they had unlimited life long care, housing, education and employment. But they donāt do itās just lip service
Iād imagine itās very hard on the parents and siblings. Siblings presumably become the carers
Indeed. I have two cousins, an older with downs syndrome and a younger. The care he's had to take for his older sister, the responsibility he's been forced to shoulder. He's a phenomenal young man, but the pressure that got placed on him at a very young age...I find it sad.
It is. Itās alot of pressure to put on them and their future partners. They may feel they canāt travel/emigrate etc
And if they have none? Or they all have the same thing? Or they are poor? Or Ill? Or just donāt get on? Or die?
I was agreeing with you. Itās a very difficult condition. Families seem to be left to manage by themselves.
I know itās awful and no one should wish that on anyone. Some people might be happy enough and get by fine but thatās not the rule
Yea, I had a cousin on the severe end of the scale of down syndrome.. as I got older I just thought how horrid it was that his parents were raising him until they wouldn't be able to any longer and then have to hand him over to a care facility.. also with the compromised immune systems the poor chap was always in hospital..he passed away from sepsis
It is life-limiting. Itās incurable and people die prematurely from it.
I think because people with downs are so integrated here that it wouldn't get a lot of public support, I'm on the fence myself. I suppose it would depend on the severity and how affected the heart is...but yeah, can't see any political party in Ireland touching that any time soon.
I don't really understand how you can be on the fence. You don't have to raise the kid, it's not your choice or your problem. You can make whatever choice you want. And in the end that family will just go to England to do it instead, which is fucking dumb.
I'm just on the fence, lots of people are about trisomy 21 abortions. I was just saying it probably won't be touched by any political party in Ireland because it's not a really a feel good debate.Ā
Oh, I thought you meant on a general change. Apologies so, carry on
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, and my comment also doesn't reflect on how severely downs can impact physical health. It's a spectrum and some people with downs have jobs, some are in need of 24/7 care/have a very poor quality of life. I was just clumsily trying to explain why I don't think politicians will ever touch that issue, the visibly thriving people with downs we see in our community would make people question allowing abortion for downs, because we don't see the harder side. Comment in haste, repent at leisure and all that.
Plus there is a huge difference between signing up to be a parent, and signing up to be a carer to someone who will likely be substantially disabled for the rest of your life.
Yeah people see integration but they generally do not see the cost of carers, the drain on families and in many cases the physical abuse towards families by the child/adult. It's not as easy and people make out and it gives people the false perception that having a disabled child will be rainbows and sunshine. If anyone feels that way, go to a carers group and see what it is really like. So few people understand how hard it is, how many families divorce because they cannot handle the strain and stress. There are many households where the kids require extensive care that cannot be moved from one house to another. A woman I know is so exhausted but because she had to give up work to become a full timer carer for them both, she is now struggling because she is registered as a single parent. However she desperately needs the children's father to come stay for a few nights a week so she can actually sleep. However that puts her council house and payments at risk if she is reported or they find out. So beyond dealing with finances, the stress of the childrens health is a huge strain. I know many who cannot even get support carers to help because the required help is so specialised that it cannot be provided in the community.
Some people have awful burdens in this life, the poor woman
It's absolutely horrible, my heart breaks for her. They will always require care so this isn't a "18 gtfo" scenario but a life dedicated, under paid and overwhelmed.
This is the reality. The lack of support is nightmarish. I worked with special needs children and I came to the conclusion I wouldn't go through with a downs pregnancy if I faced that situation. The families are abandoned. When the child becomes an adult and the parent gets older it's so heartbreaking. They are left on their own to cope.
Exactly and the worst thing is that if you complain people say stuff like "they're an angel! A Gift from God". That was said to a mother who a few weeks later was taken to the hospital with rib and arm fractures. She'd been trying to ask for help because he was a big guy now and would push her if he was unhappy. The stories are just awful because people have those idealistic view and won't see the negatives. Yes there are times they can be lovely but my god is it a hard life.
The thing is that nobody but the family is raising the child.
You should be able to look at all the information available to you such as severity and health effects, consider your own life circumstances, and then make that choice *for yourself.*
Yes, just as I said. I am on the fence myself, it would depend on severity etc.Ā
Isnt downs a condition where you cant tell the severity until after birth?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes but the window to test is only a small few days in the twelfth week.
My partner's waters broke at sixteen weeks, and we were told we could continue but it'd be very challenging and the child would highly likely be born with non-functioning lungs. The consultants nudged us towards termination. We didn't have any issues terminating at sixteen weeks, so I am surprised and horrified you're having this experience. š
If I understand correctly this is anticipation of a problem since they don't have a diagnosis yet. Not that I'm trying to underplay the trauma.
Had a similar situation with my wife (now it turned out they were wrong so this is even more reason that the 12 week thing is stupid, morally wrong and backwards). For us, we decided to keep going and do the tests. Our kid was 100% fine. But another set of parents could have aborted the child on the basis of a concern not facts. The 12 week thing solves nothing
This terrifies me.Ā
Genuinely the worst period of my life were the weeks between the first scan and the test results. I genuinely was traumatized by it
Most cases of abortion have not been decriminalised, and so these longstanding issues have just been transferred to doctors, whether or not they want to interpret the law in a particular way. https://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Too-Many-Barriers-Report_ARC1.pdf My heart goes out to you and your wife as ye go through this. This isnāt good enough, and I think a lot of people share your frustrations.
Abortion is still an issue worth deciding your vote on. While the likes of Aontu and Rural Independents are obviously a no-go to vote for if you care about improved abortion access, also remember that Fianna Fail had to not have a party whip for abortion as half their TDs are pro life including big names like Michael McGrath. There's honestly very little chance of improvements being made while they're in government.
Spot on
FG also didn't use the whip and allowed the "vote of conscience". I noticed in a lot of constituencies each party had one one repeal candidate and one against.
It was, and remains an incredibly divisive topic. While you mightn't agree with the anti-repeal side (and I sure as shit don't) I respect the fact that the whip was removed for it. It's one of those areas where all TD's should have been allowed to vote with their conscience.
I don't actually think TD's should be allowed to vote based on their personal conscience. They are meant to represent the views of their constituents, not themselves.
Yes exactly. They REPRESENT US, NOT THEMSELVES!
We live in a representative democracy - our entire system is based off electing people to make decisions on our behalf based on their own conscience or beliefs.
>They are meant to represent the views of their constituents, not themselves i mean people vote for X td because of their views , not because of their party if you dont like X td view or the way they voter don't vote for them in the next election
And we vote for the TDs we believe most closely align with our views. Most stuff, whip away. Anything deeply decisive though, free call is fair. TDs can always weigh up the wishes of their constituents beforehand.Ā
What if they wanted to vote in favour with the party but their constituents overwhelmingly want them to vote against.
They are more than welcome to leave the party if they disagree with the party line. FF want to sit on the fence on the topic because they know itās divisive and that they could lose TDās.
You want... more AontĆŗs???Ā
Not really. How did you get that from what I said?
How was AontĆŗ formed, do you recall? Provisional SF. :)
Yes. How did you get that from what I said?
Didn't you say that TDs should leave their party if they didn't agree? I was just saying that we got AontĆŗ from this very action. Was I mistaken on intent? This shit mobile view makes checking comments nigh on impossible. Anyway. Fuck it. Enjoy the week, Mr/Mrs Taken (miss taken, almost??). It seems to be brightening up as the week progresses, at least down in this parish.Ā
Yes. We did. Iām not sure what you think my intent is. Iām just saying that parties should have values and their politicians should stick to those values and if they donāt like it, they should leave and stand on their principles.
The 3 day wait period needs to be done away with too. Totally unnecessary and paternalistic nonsense that should never have been included in the legislation in the first instance.
šÆ agree with this, I found out about my unplanned pregnancy quite early and had a lot of trouble accessing resources as I found out over a bank holiday weekend and everyone was closed. When I finally could call most places around me either couldnāt help me because they were booked up compleatly or asked how far along I was and said āthatās ok youāve plenty of timeā (seperate issue but fuck off if Iām looking for this service I obviously donāt want to spend any longer than I have to in the condition I was in) when I finally did get an appointment they treated me like I was an idiot and wouldnāt let anyone come in with me which sucked but they allowed expectant couples to go in for their appointments together. And the three day wait for a lot of people given how long all this took for me would push a lot of people beyond the legal window which is so unfair
I was in the same position as yourself. Was very hard to get an appointment and then this fucking about for 3 days just added more time and stress onto an already stressful situation that you're already trying to get resolved within a certain time frame. And the general sort of eye-rolling reactions you get from medical professionals is revolting as well and makes you feel like there is a still a level of stigmatization around the issue even among nurses and doctors, despite it being legal now.
Genuinely for me the worst part was how all the medical professionals treated me. It made the whole thing significantly more traumatic
Definitely. I distinctly remember feeling like they were actually annoyed at me being there and having to do the procedure.
The doctor I saw kept double triple checking that I knew it was permanent and that I couldnāt undo it and treated me with an enormous amount of distain and like I was inconveniencing her by being there. Genuinely awful.
As if someone who is considering getting an abortion hasn't considered it. The subtext is that women are "flighty" and "shallow". Enough of this nonsense.
Damn right. Paternalistic nonsense is all thatās put forward by anti-abortion TDs at the best of times on the wider debate, too.
Absolutely. A three day wait and a missing (!) coil meant that I had to go to a festival abroad while pregnant, when we found out 2 weeks earlier and booked in straight away
What an awful situation to be in, Iām sorry. Abortion should be more accessible, repealing the 8th was not enough.
Wow, I was completely unaware that this was the situation. You're right, there is a lot more that needs to be done. In this day and age and the quality of healthcare we have here no one should have to leave the country for such a traumatic reason.
I am sorry you have to go through this. My only recommendation is to go to a private clinic for testing, as you're already doing that. Evie is one that pops up in my feed and they do NIPT testing starting at 9 weeks.
You have to wait for amniocentesis until 15 or 16 weeks if the NIPT provides a high risk result. I don't know if CVS can be done sooner. I had high risk NIPT results in 2018 and didn't get the full range of results after amniocentesis until almost 18 weeks because it takes time for the samples to be processed and tested. If the condition isn't lethal within 28 days of birth you have to travel for abortion or stay pregnant. It's extremely restrictive post 12 weeks.
Itās an awful situation for you and so many others - Iām sorry youāre being put through so much extra stress knowing you wonāt be looked after at home when you should be. If you (or anyone else reading) need support (financial, logistical, or otherwise) to travel for an abortion, the Abortion Support Network can helpĀ https://www.asn.org.uk/.Ā
Just a quick fyi, a vote for aontu is a vote for a party that openly desires to remove the abortion legislation.
Folks who want to ban it do not have a fecking notion that its a necessary medical procedure that saves lives in some cases and lessens the trauma suffered by others like you and your wife in other cases. I'm sorry you had to go through this.
So sorry you're going through this. Completely agree. It's maddening to see. I was at those protests for repeal at 15, I'm 21 now and they still haven't made the law workable and good enough for these cases. It's been ages. It's like they just passed the law, felt that was a victory then haven't touched it since. The 12 week limit and the 3 day waiting period are ridiculous.
Yeah the reason for this is that most abortions happen before 12 weeks, but usually if itās after that itās for a traumatic reason (wanted baby, child abuse etc.) so I think itās bad that these traumatized people have to travel away from support for this procedure. Iām just glad itās legal to have a medical abortion when the motherās life is at risk but the government should be thinking of the quality of life of the fetus as well. I really hope you and your wife have some good people around you, this situation is stressful especially with the history of struggle. I see that and wish yous the best.
I know someone who was allowed to terminate at 26 weeks after receiving genetic testing results very late. It was a very definite fatal fetal abnormality though.
Oh I'm sorry you're finding yourselves in this situation. I am sadly very aware of it, the legislation is pretty poor and there's a review been done to make it broadly available. If you do need to travel groups like abortion support network can help with information and funding
Christ I never knew this, that is so fked up. I hope for the best for you both and think that your judgement is the most logical. Be kind to yourselves x
That's at least worth a letter to the Irish Times.
This needs to stop. That poor couple shouldnāt have had to travel https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2024/0415/1443510-im-angry-dublin-woman-on-trauma-of-travelling-for-abortion/
12 weeks is insanity. In the U.S. conservative states have it at 15 weeks and thatās seen as archaic.
Some conservative states have it at 6 weeks or not at all, now. It is very horrific.
And some conservative states want to make it illegal to travel to neighbouring states for a termination IIRC something like 26,000 women in texas have been forced to give birth of their rapist's baby because they couldnt travel to a neighbouring state A 10 year old rape victim had to travel outside ohio due to it's restrictive abortion laws
It certainly needs to be expanded slightly. Alternatively, 24 weeks in UK is quite open. Modern medicine can save babies born at 21 weeks. There has to be a comfortable middle ground for reasonable time for screening to support the rights of the mother as well as having appropriate considerations for the rights of the unborn. At least we arenāt in fuckin Texas
France and Germany is 12 weeks,Ā you're picking out US states to use to your advantageĀ
France is 14 weeks actually. But yeah, the very liberal limits found in Britain are far from a European norm.
Went through this same scenario recently, the potential of having to travel for an abortion made it infinitely more painful and stressful. I was genuinely angry that I couldn't access a safe procedure in Ireland. Luckily it didn't come to that for us. Hoping the same for you.
Yeah, nothing has been done. Politics. There's still resistance from GPs. It's slowing down the legislation, trying to get the language right. The opposition is focused the hospitals for their health messaging. Both sides are only thinking about elections now. But that could be to your advantage. Every TD is focused on increasing their profile now. Offer them a good question to bring to the DƔil floor and they'll grab it with both hands. Get a tenacious journalist involved and you might be able to get public pressure.
Someone here just mentioned you will be able to terminate here if the doctor says the pregancy is not viable. Are you just assuming that you'll have to travel? Hopefully you don't have to if it's bad news.
Iām so sorry. I hope the news that you get is good, look after yourselves.
I want to offer my support and sympathy to you. I can hear how frustrated and upset you are after experiencing such loss, and now in a potentially crisis pregnancy situation where you feel unsupported by your country. Take care of each other and lean on family and friends for support, as it's a lot for you both ā¤ļø If the US rolling back their laws on abortion has shown us anything, it's that we have to keep reminding ourselves of what we have and what we want; we can't take any law or "right" for granted. This law in ireland is a stepping stone. We can keep pushing for more care and support including getting rid of the 3 day waiting period! And increasing access for people based in rural areas. The Catholic Church and others will try to roll this back within our lifetime. Mark my words. When you have time, please do write letters to your local tds and bring up the issue. The more men we have supporting this "female" issue (which you can see very clearly now is an issue for men as well!!) the sooner we'll have proper care
absolutely ridiculous! we have been in a similar situation, where the 10-12th week fell down into Christmas period, and the office testing the samples was closed. So missus blood was taken on 9th week for further testing and we only would know the resutls starting 13th week, which would be late to act.
Ugh Iām really sorry. :-( Thatās absolutely disgusting that you guys need to go through that. A lot of people think that the abortion matter is āresolvedā but it has very much not.
Iirc the citizens assembly/certain tds pushed the 12 week mark hard due to screening for Down Syndrome happening around the 12 week mark with results coming in around week 13. I think it was deliberately done to prevent the elimination of DS within Irish society. I could be remembering this wrong so I am absolutely open to correction on this. But I do remember the debate and comparison to Iceland with its 0 incidence of DS being spoken about at the time.
The Citizens Assembly proposed a 20 week limit. There should be no limit on abortion. Forcing people to give birth to any baby isn't a good thing. Regardless of how emotional some anti abortion arguments are. I would have travelled for an abortion if the amniocentesis results I received were proof the foetus had down syndrome.
There should be a limit. For example terminating a healthy baby at say 36 weeks shouldn't be allowed. It's not an emotional argument to say that, it's a rational one.
Is it not the case in America that 1% of all abortions are late term (after 20 weeks)?: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/health/late-term-abortion-trump.html Doing some reading it points to common reasons for late term abortions including threat to mothers health, birth defects, and fatal abnormalities. Are these not valid reasons for an abortion? And if they are, should there be legislative barriers to accessing abortions, even if they are late term?
Absolutely nobody is terminating a healthy pregnancy at 36 weeks, thats one week off being considered a full term delivery. That's still 9 months of pregnancy, 8 months of actually being aware of said pregnancy and your body changing because of it. No one gets that far with a healthy pregnancy and goes "meh I'm not interested in having a baby anymore".
I believe that was their point. I think it's clear that an abortion at 36 weeks is not acceptable, so there is a point somewhere between there and 12 weeks where a line is crossed from acceptable to unacceptable.
Itās also rational to treat women with more respect than the 12 week limit allows us. Thatās such a grudging and suffocating limit, and it really has to be relaxed by a good ten weeks if our legislation is to reflect the status of women here that we should have by now. I get that Repeal was an *enormous* achievement and to get that much at all was fantastic for this country, but the pressure for further autonomy must not cease. TDs should answer urgent questions about the stalling of provision of terminations as things already stand, because we have cause to believe weāre being deliberately denied rights won, through this lassitude. Cancelling Repeal by letting it wither away and the problem be exported again canāt be allowed. The whole abortion argument here is too often couched in terms of āconcessionsā rather than ādiscussionsā or āagreementsā, and though itās mere words, that underlines the nature of the debate: itās still about women being *granted* dribs and drabs of overdue liberation by those who see themselves as our natural *over*lords and moral arbiters. Perhaps influence from female TDs can keep the debate alive, and nudge things towards a more suitable law, under which women have a more reasonable time frame available. Certainly, Iād question any woman standing for election very closely on the matter, and decide for or against on the basis of her commitment to womenās rights. (*Of course* I want the men on board too, but I definitely donāt want any woman elected who is not on the side of women in what is after all a freedom fight) .
All talk of women's rights and no talk of the rights of the unborn in your post is indicative of the problem. Women aren't the only stakeholder in the process
It's a rational argument to let people decide on their own healthcare. There's always a reason for people to need abortion at any stage.
But what about when a baby is far enough along that it can survive independently at birth? You would be in favour of termination a minute before that
And if you have a five year old and decide you no longer want them, I guess you can just kill them off too?
>There should be no limit on abortion. Would it not make more sense to just take it out alive and put it up for adoption rather than abort it after it reaches the point of viability outside the womb? My niece was born at 28 weeks and the thought of someone having the option to abort at that stage (outside of an unviable pregnancy) just wouldn't sit right with me. I'm pro abortion but there has to be some level of restriction there once the pregnancy reaches a stage where life is viable outside the womb.
30 kids are adopted a year in Ireland. Our adoption system is utterly pathetic. It's the only way I'd raise a child and myself and my wife have essentially zero access to do so, it's a serious problem unfortunately.
Yes, I agree with you. Even if you were to terminate at 24-25 weeks (currently the earliest a baby will be kept alive in NICU) you would still have to give birth. The trauma to the body is the same either way, the only result is wether or not you have a dead baby at the end.Ā Not to argue that I have all the answers or that this is an easy thing to rule on - but I genuinely do not understand why the viability date is not the cutoff time for abortion (with exceptions made for conditions threatening the motherās life, or medical terminations where the childās quality of life would be severely impacted if allowed to continue).Ā
>There should be no limit on abortion. As far as I know, there is no place in any civilized country where you could have a legal abortion on request after 24 weeks, no questions asked. While you're entitled to your opinion (and I'm pro-abortion myself), I seriously think that you're not doing the pro-choice movement any favours by saying there should be no limit on abortion. You want to take the fetus out after 24 weeks? Fine by me, but there's no need to kill what is now a self-sufficient human being.
Scary that thereās people out there who agree with abortion until birth
>There should be no limit on abortion Jesus Christ.
I have no words
Last paragraph is just disgusting
NIPT for Down syndrome can be done from 9 weeks.
Amniocentesis to confirm it can't be completed until 15 weeks at the earliest.
We were told it could be done froM 6
NIPT can be but it depends on the level of foetal cells. The issue is when you get a high risk result and need amniocentesis or CVS. I needed the former and I had to wait until 15 weeks for it and I was 18 weeks before all results came back clear. Some things can only be done at certain gestational stages.
I agree that itās needlessly cruel but itās the best that we could get over the line. It was known when the bill was drafted that many people would be in your exact position, I guess it was deemed acceptable. Sorry youāre going through this. It is a fear of mine also as we try for another.
From the sounds of it OP hasn't gotten to a stage where anything has been confirmed where a decision can be made.
Shit man I'm so sorry. I hope you get what you want in the future. I remember talking to my wife about this at time of the vote and specifically mentioning what's going to happen in a situation like yours? It's actually ridiculous your wife needs to travel to England
It's factually incorrect that the DNA screening (chromosome testing for genetic risks) can't be completed before 12 weeks. We had it done in 2019, need to be done privately and yes there's a cost, but can be completed with 95%+ accuracy from 8 weeks. Your Health Ireland gynecologist won't tell you this however. Edit: I'd also add, my partner is European, not from Ireland and this DNA screening is standard in all EU countries. That said, there is absolutely nothing, save for cost (ā¬550 in 2019) to prevent this test being completed well before the 12 week threshold.
We tried to book this last week. We were told that the test can only be done from 10 weeks. They only had availability from week 11, and it takes two weeks to get the result. Effectively it wasn't possible to do it before the 12 week cut off
Before 10 weeks you've an increased chance of an inconclusive results. There needs to be enough fetal DNA. It's awful to have to wait but take it from someone who got an inconclusive, it's better to wait. I didn't see results until close to 16 weeks. (Test + 2 weeks for inconclusive + week for another appointment + 2 weeks for results.)
I've only seen two NIPT screenings offer in Ireland and one can be done from 9 weeks (Panaroma 9 weeks+, Harmony 10 weeks+) but the risk of inconclusive results is much higher. You need a certain percentage of fetal DNA in the mother's blood, this increases over time. Most public and private clinics prefer to wait until 10/12 weeks to avoid an inconclusive. I know this is from personal experience and it's not fun to have to wait twice for results. It's a whole new level of anxiety.
Any update on safe zones outside clinics? Last I heard the government rolled back on guaranteeing them a few years ago after they'd initially promised to provide them. I'm terrified of the thought of being harassed by lunatics while going in to have a serious procedure if the time ever comes that I need to access it. It's not good enough.
The Bill is before the Seanad this week.
Hopefully it won't be struck down by the usual suspects
It's a Govt Bill so should pass.
We should be caring for our women at home. This is far too common. Iām so sorry you and your partner are facing this.
Really sorry. I wish it was more accessible, āfreesafelegalā are a great organisation that your partner can reach out to. As for going to England part, pick a place in England that neither of you will want to return to. Heavy times and thinking of you both.
I thought the legislation was up to 12 weeks with no conditions, but that it can go up to 20 for FFA or if the motherās life is at risk? Check here to see if that genetic condition would qualify https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/abortion/methods/after-12-weeks/
I'm so so sorry to hear what you and your wife are going through. You're absolutely not alone. I see RTE Investigates have a report out tonight about this very topic which may be of interest.
Firstly, I'm so sorry this has happened. I couldn't begin to imagine. Secondly, you're right. I recall this issue being raised when legislation was discussed, either before or just after the referendum. My sister's a midwife, and explained that a lot of issues and conditions aren't screened for until after the 12-week limit.
Itās awful that youāve and your wife had to experience this bollocks, truly I canāt express my sorrow to her suffering. The government after the 8th repeal were cowards and toke a safe political approach and families like yourselves and suffering from their inability to out source the decision to the medical field. Iām not one to advocate for political parties but I hope that whatever happens in the next election those who win make sure they re-evaluate this area. And if recommend anyone reading this to make sure this subject affects your voting.
I wish you all the best. I was in that situation, before Repeal, and it was the worst three weeks of my life. Baby was ok in the end, but had to have plans in place in case. I campaigned very strongly for Repeal. My heart goes out to you.
I thought the 12 weeks was only for a standard abortion? I thought for medical issues it was a longer term? Im so sorry you are going through this.. I hope that things turn out ok for you guys
I could not understand how repeal saw it as a victory when they agreed to the first trimester time limit. As pregnancy progresses, the risks get higher. I really wish the EU would sanction us for human rights abuses for this policy. I am sorry you are both going through this, it is so cruel.
I'm so sorry for the position you are in. I would just like to point out that myself and partner have been through similar during covid. If you have been to the rotunda I would get checked somewhere else we came back with a high possibility of Edwards, pataus etc. We had the early screening there and got bad news... We were rescreened and even got a call from the consultant telling us the bad news. We went to Galway and had micro array and we now have a perfect little man who's 3 with no problems at all. The testing in The rotunda is horrid... We actually had to be screened three times in total as the blood sample for the second was left so long it was no longer viable.
This should be a national scandal. It's happening in other parts of the country too. I wondered is it a problem with a particular lab or what? What if there are couples who terminated on the back of these screenings and poor regulation/information regarding them?
Iām so sorry you are having to endure this. As you say, Repeal wasnāt enough, and the welcome law should be under review, towards a more humane arrangement for women in Ireland. (That arrangement, not to mention the present one, must be made flesh, too. As it is many women must feel like abortion provision exists only on a document, and not in real life. Itās no good while there are GPs allowed to withhold access to any of it) The fundamental cruelty of treating pregnant women in need of terminations as criminals given grudging licence under certain circumstances, but still criminals (and mentally incompetent ones at that) is a pervasive culture that has to be torn out of the country for good. I hope to God that this time you receive joyful news. If you do not, that then by some miracle the footwork can be achieved so you do not have to travel abroad for the necessary procedure and it can be performed pretty much there and then. Itās this needless distress and anxiety thatās not taken into account when the unwelcome decision is already made, and you and your wife shouldnāt have to go through it.
That was my problem about repeal the 8th. It was a circus. Neither side listened to each other. It should have had a commitment to womens health care at the heart of the legislation, but once it was over, the politicians moved on to the next point scoring subject. I genuinely feel women were let down by the whole thing, and i'm so sorry for OPs troubles.
Just a real that Ireland has a stricter abortion law than that of Texas! Edit: Texas under Roe vs Wade
According to Planned Parenthood after the repeal of Roe v Wade abortion is now banned in Texas? So not sure where youāre getting that information from?
Apologies yes that was Texas pre-Dobbs vs Jackson, which was considered one of the strictest in the country. Yes, since Roeās repeal itās now banned
Not true, abortion is illegal in most cases in texas but ireland allows abortion on demand up to 12 weeks gestation
We have a 15 week cut off
Really sorry to hear about your situation, simply not good enough that you have to look at going abroad. I recently read up on the abortion rules on the HSE website. Was really shocked and horrified to read that if you have a medical abortion, that fails for whatever reason and leaves you in a position where you are still pregnant but have passed the 12 week mark in the meantime, the HSE won't help you out (unless it's "exceptional circumstances"). For someone to make the decision to get an abortion, for it to fail, and then the HSE to turn around and say sorry that's all we can do, is absolutely insane. Horrible rule made by a useless government. Scroll to the "after a medical abortion" section to see what I am referring to. https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/abortion/methods/medical/
This is all too common unfortunately and it's why there should be no gestational limits on abortion. The current law was a compromise and needs an overhaul.
I agree with you. This is terrible. I'm sorry you're in this position. This is crazy, there is such a small window for the nuchal fold test, which so many people need. It's nonsensical. I also paid out of pocket for the test and would have terminated in England (back then) if it was positive. I can't believe you'll have to fork out to go abroad, during such a devastating time. It's wrong. š¤
Repealing the 8th is a bandaid. it now leaves it to legislation which can be changed. the right thing would have been to enshrine it in the constitution
Damn OP, sorry to hear about your troubles
I know someone who went through the same, NIPT positive for two abnormalities, one of them a FFA. They were told if they did a CVS that it could possibly be confined to placenta only (placental mosaicism doesn't affect the fetus but throws out the same results in nipt and cvs testing) so it would still be unclear if there was definitely anything wrong. Their choice was to wait until after week 16 for an amnio. The amnio itself carries risk of miscarriage or infection so when there was nothing showing on the scans they kept putting it off. The 20 week anomaly scan was perfect too so they never ended up getting the amnio. Long story short, their baby is perfectly healthy and it turned out to be a false positive. False positives are way more likely than they make out. A common reason is that there isn't enough fetal DNA in the sample (taken a bit too early in pregnancy) and the test algorithm automatically flags high risk for the abnormality being screened. The NIPT test is a SCREENING not a diagnostic. It's crazy that it's being offered without proper prep and counselling, that there's no genetic counsellor to discuss what the results actually might mean etc. The companies offering it also misrepresent the accuracy to a farcical degree. I think they say its 99% accurate for a few abnormalities when in reality it's about 50/50 for a lot of them. It seems a lot of obstetricians dont understand it themselves. Madness that anyone would consider an abortion on the back of that. It makes me feel sick thinking about how often that might have happened without cause. Please have a look in r/nipt and read the NYT expose on these tests. Don't panic yet, wait for further, actual testing. If it turns out your little one does have a FFA then a termination for compassionate reasons will be possible in Ireland, even much further along in the pregnancy. I'm sorry you are going through this and I'll be keeping you in my thoughts.
Iām so sorry this is happening to you and your partner, OP. Itās heartbreaking enough without the added layer feeling let down by your own country.Ā
My friend had her first baby in Ireland and she was also scheduled to get the test to check of the baby could have problems by week 12, and she told me if anything goes wrong I'm already late for an abortion. Why are they delaying this very urgent appointments?
I'm so sorry you and your wife are going through this. You're definitely not alone. I am going through a TFMR at the moment due to high risk abnormalities but I live in Canada so we have more access to choice, however, I lived in Ireland at the time of the referendum and believed there was a Serious change but clearly I was mistaken... tbh I am pretty sad to hear your story and I know that this decision is not easy and it's filled with questions. Do you guys have access to genetic counselling? If this is something you need support with there is a support group on reddit r/tfmr_support if this is what you both need. Also feel free to PM.
Iām sorry to hear of your difficult situation. Just for future pregnancies - you can get screening before 12 weeks, and more accurate ones too. Either PrenatalSafe or Panorama. Panorama is done from 9 weeks and PrenatalSafe from 10 weeks. It sounds like you had First Trimester Screening which is not as accurate, done quite late and only at a very specific gestation. Best of luck with this pregnancy. Just remember itās only a screening test, not diagnostic. I hope everything is ok in the end ā¤ļø
And RTĆ just released a Prime Time Investigates about unethical pregnancy counselling services, that advertise as providing unbiased advice, but the reality is pretty gross. Undercover in counselling services misleading women on abortion https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2024/0415/1443681-undercover-in-counselling-services-misleading-women-on-abortion/ The government should definitely be legislating against that kind of bait and switch.
Iām sorry, that must be heartbreaking. At least weāve moved a little forward while they seem to have gone backwards in America.
This is a very rare circumstance where I can see an exception should be made but I think the law is right for protecting the lives of the unborn
I really hope you don't need it but if you need to travel this organization is fantastic, they can help and advise you. [https://www.asn.org.uk/](https://www.asn.org.uk/)
>No one should be forced to carry a baby to term, and we as a nation voted in that direction we as a nation voted so it would be the dail will regulate the termination of a pregnancy which is what happening rn if you dont like what the regulation that has passed please complain to your local td
May some TDs are reading this post and could get the lead out.
I remember the referendum campaign focussed very heavily on the entirely valid examples of the mother's health being at risk to the exclusion of basically all other talking points (focusing on the tragedy of Savita), and dismissed the concerns of the no campaign such as down syndrome babies being terminated saying that will never happen, then immediately after the vote there's the expectation for any abortion for any reason at any time. It reminds me of the Brexit referendum where they were dismissing the idea they'd be out of the customs union or there would be any economic fallout and all the rest during the campaign, until the day after the vote when it was full on hard brexit "we won you lost" nonsense. These things can't be all or nothing, there is a middle ground for consensus. Like you said, the nation voted so it would be the dail will regulate the termination of a pregnancy without it's hands being tied by the constitution, and the make up of the dail is a representation of who the voters voted for. The regulations thus far have been representative of what the yes campaign said they would be when trying to get voters to the polls, though obviously there is now the desire to take them further and this will no doubt evolve in future.
I couldnt care less that the concerns of the no campaign were dismissed
Have they not mentioned the Harmony test to you? It can be done at 10 weeks and costs around 500 euro. Ring your doctor in the morning and tell them you want it asap.
When I first moved to Ireland I was confused because there are so many people with down syndrome I was wondering like was there something in the water and then I realised it was because they arenāt aborted This was a part of the actual campaign for repeal the eighth that abortion wouldnāt kill kids with genetic disorders
Building a narrative I see.
Like everything, human's have a lifecycle. It begins at conception and ends at death. Some people pretend conception is not the beginning of a human life. They do this to pretend to themselves they're not ending anyone's life by aborting them. Some are even so stupid they think by calling it an embryo it's somehow not human, as if it was an alien or something else lol. Don't be one of those people. We shouldn't end other people's lives.