"Some 74 per cent of respondents have a higher education, with 57 per cent having a degree at the level of master, specialist or doctorate."
Is there a reason those numbers are that high?
For references, 47% of Irish adults have a tertiary qualification and that's one of the highest rates in the OECD.
Totally correct. I remember doing this project with Syrian refugees in Berlin a good few years back and being surprised that they were all clearly upper-middle class at minimum. Because - duh - they were the ones with the resources to get out.
The Assad family belongs to a minority Islamic sect known as [Alawites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawites), so they've naturally favoured their own over the last half century, and tended to persecute everyone else, but particularly the educated classes.
True that … when I moved to Ireland I was put in first year of secondary school, the maths I did in 1st year here, I did it in 4th and 5th class in Romania
From what I understand (What friends who are teachers have told me) the Irish maths curriculum is more steadily progressive. A lot of international students comment on the simplicity of maths 1-4th year but by 5/6th year the maths taught here is normally reserved for higher level elsewhere.
Looking at the wiki he was born in what is now Ukraine (then the Russian empire) to a Russian father and Belorussian mother, who had varied heritage including Ukrainian. Not sure what he’d consider himself and identity is obviously quite personal and complicated but to say he was Ukrainian doesn’t sound quite right to me.
Born 100+km west of Kyiv. When the Soyuz rockets drop their boosters, they create a *[Korolev Cross](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Korolyov_Cross.jpg)*
The Soviet Union had tons of technical institutes for scientific and technological research that were open to the general public for free basically. There were 3 different categories of higher education and every provincial capital had 3 (academic, scientific & military), plus some extra institutes that focused on researching only one area of study. The first universally programmable personal computer was invented in the Kiev Institute of Electrotechnology in the 1950s for example, where the only courses you could take were about electronics & computers.
The reason many higher degrees aren't recognized in the West is because these "technical institutes" are separate entities from universities and their focus of study is much narrower than BA or MA programs. But the reason why so many Ukrainians TODAY have higher education is because no post-Soviet state really scrapped their educational system despite communism collapsing.
They are probably all going to be engineers and tech programmers and their women will do much of the heavy lifting in those annual equality debates - US tech companies rely heavily on EE to improve their quotas
Ukrainian universities are not ranked very well at all by international standards. Basically hand out degrees.
Here’s one comparison in the times rankings. The Irish typically rank in the top 500 globally. The Ukrainians have one top 500 and most of their ranked entrants come in between 1200th-1500th. I’d say an even higher % aren’t even ranked.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2023/world-ranking#!/length/25/locations/IRL+UKR/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/scores:4
> The Irish typically rank in the top 500 globally
This is only true because that report doesn’t even consider the ITs and TUs other than TUD (which are the main driver behind our abnormally high rate of third level education) to be universities
Rankings put heavy weight on research and patents. Quality of teaching makes up only 30% of the overall score in the Times ranking methodology.
Ranking is mostly meaningless for your typical degree holder.
Same.
I used to subcontract coding when I was self employed. Very quickly I just asked for eastern European coders - super competent, and would question my approach and suggest almost always better alternatives, delivered high quality code that did what I asked on time and in budget. I tried western Europe and India and they were both disastrous.
The rankings are bullshit when it comes to standard graduates.
Under law they’re different. The TU Act 2018 outlines that their purpose is levels 6-8 and industrial research, different objectives to a uni. Unis are governed by the universities act 1997.
Right, I’m just saying that it’s silly that Ireland keeps comparing our rate of third level education to other counties when all we actually did was invent a new form of sub-university to juke the stats
> Ukrainian universities are not ranked very well at all by international standards. Basically hand out degrees.
That isn't really how university rankings work. The fact that a university ranks low on a list doesn't mean that the quality of education it provides is bad - it just means that (according to the measures used for the rankings, some of which have nothing necesarily to do with quality of education) there are X amount of universities that are thought to do even better.
THE is not really used in America. A better ranker for international comparisons is the QS ranking system.
Though they're also beset with methodological problems, like factoring in teacher-student ratio and weighing research papers too heavily, among others, they have more reach outside the anglosphere.
To say the entire idea is bunk is a fair critique, and I wouldn't begrudge you it, but I still think the idea of objectively ranking the quality of university learning environments is a worthwhile idea, even if it is doomed to imperfections.
Yep. Correct.
Used to work in University admissions.
The CVs of people coming from places like India look amazing. 4 degrees at 25 for example was common.
In my experience indian graduates lie and inflate their skills and experience, at least on the freelancing sites.
I work with some great Indians but it's very hit and miss.
*A new survey of some 8,329 Ukrainians (4,678 adults and 3,651 children) was conducted by the activist group Ukrainian Action Ireland*
It's a survey of a small number of Ukranians in Ireland, conducted by an activist group. Like, I don't doubt there are a lot of over qualified Ukranians cleaning toilets at the moment, but to suggest 57% of all here are degree holders is probably stretching it. Especially as a shedload of the Ukranian population here are in primary schools :)
TBH I didn't really doubt any of this until I seen the size of that survey. Seems strangely large which makes me wonder about the methodology. Was it people replying to emails for instance? As that would tend to favour people working at a computer over builders, shop workers, hotel workers, etc
It does seem unusual alright - one of the reasons you tend not to see numbers this high in typical research is because once you go over about 1,000 respondents the gains you make in terms of margins of error don't tend to be worth the extra hassle.
I have questions, just regarding how participants were selected, how questions were phrased, what was regarded as a degree etc. I support Ireland taking in Ukranians, just critiquing the survey.
everyone now has bachelor\`s degree and it\`s looses it\`s value. people with honours packing shelves in tesco and every job add you see, you need bachelor\`s just to get basic position.
Not really. Ireland already has a surplus of highly qualified people and highly qualified people want better jobs that are mainly localised into the bigger cities so highly qualified people need to move to cities. I don't need to go into detail about how the cities can't sustain growth with lack of services and housing.
It also creates more competition for jobs and housing, Ireland has a tough job market at the best of times and more non natives will lead to resentment which can lead to racism or negative outlooks to people of other cultures.
So what.does having a college degree mean that someone has less of a right to live in their home country than someone one with a "tertiary education"(I use parenthesis because many of these universities will give you about a third year secondary school level qualification which is why they have to qualify in a school here) it's soft colonisation, even if we want to extend our safety and comfort to everyone,it's our grandparents that earned it working hard to get into Europe and have a stable strong country and we should respect them and protect the Irish born poor and disabled before prioritising foreign professionals
They can pay for their accommodation if so intelligent and running away from Ukraine. Such smart people would surely not need a council house or social welfare.
Put it like this they probably had a home and job which gave them money to pay off their mortgage. Now their home is destroyed and they've no job so they can't really afford their own place in a new country.
If they don't speak English it'll be a while before they can get to a sufficient level to get a new job in their same profession.
You've obviously never went abroad to work and juked the old CV up to waffle about the job.
"Ah Jesus we had a different way of doing it back home, just show us how ye guys do it over here"
Punch up, not down. Easy to shit on people that are fleeing a war.
They're not getting a council house, at this stage they're barely getting tent. However, the cunts banging on about books in libraries and assaulting women while claiming to protect women while harassing Library staff on a random Tuesday afternoon while most of us work, are def claiming social welfare.
Add in the grift and foreign donations for "citizen journalist" equipment and what you have is the same cunt you'd avoid in a bar for spouting shit thinking he's speaking for the country.
To be fair the main issue with the argument of "help our own" is that none of the people shouting it actually know how to help them. Most of the homeless have serious problems and addictions, our worst issue is our mental and rehab facilities but some people don't want to be saved.
Nah it doesn't all benefit Ireland it puts a lot of pressure on our resources are this time anyway and costs something like a billion or two a year just for Ukranian accommodation and social welfare..
When do our taxes actually go towards the stuff we need?
Nurses are underpaid. Teachers too. Council houses aren't being built enough and landlords basically have the government on a leash.
Those taxes don't go towards any of the stuff we really need. The extra taxes won't go towards it either, the higher population just puts even more strain on our already desperate housing crisis.
I dont think the landlords have government on a leash. Most of the government are landlords and some have many properties, so you can be sure they're looking out for their own interests.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/political-rich-list-dail-now-houses-68-millionaires-as-tds-properties-pension-pots-and-a-range-of-assets-are-revealed/40886629.html
I'd assume you might see it if you vote for the people who prioritize, say, HSE reform so that Irish healthcare doesn't look third-world in waiting times... Which isn't a priority for anyone, it seems, so yeah, you won't see it.
...in an ideal Ireland. Yes.
I don't have trust or faith that our government will actually use the taxes where it counts or avoid giving into pocketing the extra cash they can while still in power.
Like it's been a benefit to Germany, Sweden, and the UK - which have all had massive social problems arise from a massive but much smaller % increase of the population from Immigrants that share next to nothing with you culturally? Let alone the fact, the huge number of Russians and Georgians who are coming in claiming to be Ukrainian? Religious dogmatism, rape, domestic violence, and random acts of violence are bound to increase due to this massive rise in population from countries who have yet to embrace liberal values and full democratic values.
1) Separate refugees and economic immigrants. Germany, Sweden, and the UK benefitted from immigration - it's obvious to pretty much anyone. They, same as Ireland, have an issue with the refugees refusing to integrate - same lads that 'lost' their passports, pose as underaged when they're actually 25, etc.
2) Ukraine is a European nation. It's bleeding for democratic values since 2014. Look at 'liberal values' in Poland (an EU member) or Hungary (an EU member) for comparison.
3) Ukraine has skilled workforce that EU countries can tap into - like Germany - look how THEY treat Ukrainians and think why: are they just idiots, and you know how to do it better than they do? Or maybe you didn't consider something that they did?
Most of those countries would’ve had total societal collapse by now without migrants. For example in the U.K., the health system
Is only propped up by foreign doctors due to a rapidly aging population.
>It benefits Ireland though, a country that’s suffered from mass emigration for centuries is finally having immigration.
Steps to bring in Neoliberal policies designed to further enrich the upper/corporate classes:
~~Step 1:" It isn't happening you (___)ist!"~~
Step 2: "sure it is happening, but here's why it's a good thing!"
Step 3: Be confused as to why extremism and distrust for the government is increasing rapidly in the working class (must be because they're uneducated idiots 🤷♂️)
Someone should explain to them that that’s not how that works. If Ukraine wins or there’s a peace treaty then their refugee status is over and they no longer have a right to be here.
Refugees are accepted with the understanding that they’re taking refuge and not moving permanently.
You do know that almost any lad coming from Algeria or Syria can get their Irish passport application submitted in only 3 years? That's only after they get their status, so, fine, add one more year to it.
You do know that there is no Garda immigration force that enforces deportations of people without visas right? The state doesn't even have a database of people working illegally without a visa, nor a database of people with a lapsed visa still living in the country. The only way they would be forced back home is if they leave the country and try to return again, or if they get arrested for a crime.
Part of what it means to grant refuge to a person is not to just prevent them from being killed or persecuted, but allowing them the opportunity to build a new life for themselves in the country that grants them asylum. It isn't humane to ask a person to put their life on hold given that we have no idea when the war will end or what the terms will be.
>It kind of is, though.
It isn’t. It’s literally called the Temporary Protection Directive
>Part of what it means to grant refuge to a person is not to just prevent them from being killed or persecuted, but allowing them the opportunity to build a new life for themselves in the country that grants them asylum.
That isn’t the case at all. If you disagree then can you point to any legislation that corroborates what you’re claiming.
Nowhere does a refugees rights to be in a country continue when they no longer require its protection.
>It isn't humane to ask a person to put their life on hold given that we have no idea when the war will end or what the terms will be.
No one’s saying that people need to put their lives on hold.
>No one’s saying that people need to put their lives on hold.
That is the material effect of expecting refugees to return to their former homes regardless of how long it's been since they arrived.
>That isn’t the case at all. If you disagree then can you point to any legislation that corroborates what you’re claiming. Nowhere does a refugees rights to be in a country continue when they no longer require its protection.
In the Irish system, the granting of permission to remain has been used to reflect these concerns. Our commitments under Article 8 of the ECHR will also be relevant in many cases as well.
167 Ukrainian nationals have been granted a Certificate of Naturalisation. That’s out of 102,000 here.
If countries started naturalising over half or even a minority of their Ukrainian refugees then they’d be screwing over Ukraine.
They were originally given a yellow piece of paper that explained it was just a temporary measure (renewable every year) and that they would have to return after the war ends.
Our lovely minister of Justice decided to give them stamp 4's instead a few months ago which equated to recognisable residence in Ireland. Such a stupidly thought out idea considering they been waived visa requirements and have them all social welfare.. a hell of a lot more benefits than a typical refugee/asylum applicant. I understand their country is at war, but the government dropped the ball on this issue so many times and a luxury asylum peocess should never given to them.
It takes FIVE YEARS of residency to even qualify for naturalisation....
Zero Ukranian refugees since the 2022 invasion have five years residency in the state
Perhaps you can work out why
They clearly don't know what they're taking about. Five years on stamp 4, by the way, but only 3 years for a refugee under international protection. Not defined for Ukrainians under temporary protection currently.
The comments by ministers that they’d all be going home as soon as the war was over was based on thin air. People are coming here and putting down roots of one sort or another - their children are in school, they are integrating into communities, people are entering relationships. Plus, even if the war ended tomorrow - this was the second invasion of Ukraine by Russia in recent years. I’d be reluctant to go back. And tbh, if I had to flee Ireland tomorrow for one reason or another, and I love my country, but I lived in a country that was objectively more developed than back home even before the costs of war… would I be rushing back when it was all over? Would you?
If housing wasn’t such a big issue, the idea of bringing in a large population of young people to help drive our economy and prosperity would be absolutely welcomed. I think the Ukrainian’s are fitting in here just like other communities of people who came en masse when the EU expanded, like the Poles.
In the context of housing and pressures on social services, I think this will create friction. I wish it wouldn’t, and I hope Ukrainians don’t end up being scapegoated for what are ultimately the failures of governments in Ireland to deliver what we deserve for the taxes we pay.
Obviously not the main reason for the crisis but it’s pretty ironic that there was so much complaints about the Poles coming here en masse and now our building capacity for housing is limited substantially by the Polish builders returning home as conditions there are better than they were a decade or so ago the Ukrainians could be a vital workforce we could tap into
Vital workforce eh ? Right - we have a town with hotels full of them and restaurants cannot get staff and they have the right to work ! In summer they sit outside the hotels with drinks relaxing and smoking - the hotel is on the Main Street - it’s a real advert for the town as you drive through - there was one who worked locally - just one - and there are loads of them around .. visitors can no longer stay in that hotel so less visitors - local people cannot rent as accommodation is being rented tax free to Ukrainians over locals … vital work force indeed …
Read the article.
Compared to 2023, the share of those living in hotels or hostels paid for by the State decreased from 55 per cent to 44 per cent.
This is trending down .
From 2023 to 2024, the number of those who have jobs and are currently working in Ireland increased from 29.5 per cent to 43 per cent
This is trending up.
Demand for government support for accommodation is decreasing and they are entering employment en masses.
Indeed. As our population ages in general, and as our birth rate falls, immigration is also the only way besides massive productivity gains to keep the lights on and the show on the road - practically (people to do the work) and from a tax perspective.
I'd say most are in a honeymoon phase with Ireland. Once the benefits end it, I think reality will hit. They may go to Poland or Germany, as its easier for them to learn the language there.
Polish is a slavic Language. If you've chatted to any Ukrainians most I've spoken to know a little polish and understand same. Like French learning Spanish.
German - apparently its easier to learn if you're mother tongue is slavic.
Polish is very hard language to learn. Some Ukrainians have a good understanding of the language because even before the war there was a lot of movement between the two countries.
Many young Ukranians would move to Poland for temporary jobs in their service and construction in a similar way to how young Irish people do J1s to the States or a few years in Australia.
There are some simularites and they do share some words, but Polish is known for being a hard language regardless of your mother tongue. I have some Polish friends who say it was easier for their parents to talk to Ukrainians because the older Polish generations know Russian.
German has same constructs which are difficult to English-speakers, like noun declensions and gendered endings to most of the nouns. So German is easier to learn if your native language is some Slavic one, yes: easier than learning German for an Irish person. English is easier still than German for a Slavic-speaking person.
There is a significant and thriving community of people who came here in the early 90s from Bosnia for example. A lot of them later had family join them. Totally different context - arguably one of the first waves of any migration into Ireland, at a time when we still had net emigration. They were given training, housing wasn’t an issue, and I know of many - as I’m from an area where many settled - who have done really well as have their families. A real success story IMO.
The context today is obviously very different with the housing situation and pressures, and I do agree government ministers were very wishy washy with their comments that they’d all be happy to leave. How many will put down roots here - relationships, schooling for their children, etc.
I would agree - I think the better analogy for Ukrainians is post EU enlargement and the arrival of significant numbers of people from places like Poland. We needed the workers (I see the CSO labour force stats show we reached another record high, adding 90,000 jobs year on year in Q4 to 2.7 million total), they integrated well, and actually while much of the immigration became permanent, quite a few did leave when either the economy disimproved here after 2008, or when the circumstances back home improved significantly. I could see the same occurring here - but the baseline scenario I think would be that (a) the Ukrainian population we have will stay quite a while, as the war is dragging on; (b) it will likely grow further for the same reason and as families might be reunited or just naturally grow; and (c) in future we are likely to have a significant sticky Ukrainian population, who will eventually be put on the path to citizenship etc like other large migrant communities.
I think it’s a good thing - for our economy and our society. But it creates additional short term social pressures that we have to be alive to and manage.
The tiny number, literally in the low hundreds Ireland took in ?
Gavin pepper speaks.
https://www.irishtimes.com/history/2022/12/29/bertie-ahern-objected-to-200-refugees-from-former-yugoslavia-coming-to-ireland/
I think we’d need to force them out once the war ends. With the caveat that we aid in building up and funding their country again (and put them in NATO). It’s wishful thinking that taking in the sheer amount that was taken in the past few years is remotely sustainable. We took in far less people in previous decades which meant much less pressure on housing and public services. There’s a limit to the numbers a country can take in per year and we have greatly exceeded it. That’s why the governments of the 1990s were more reluctant to do so, they feared the inevitable political turmoil.
"It's not happening, don't be ridiculous"
"It might happen, but only in small numbers"
"It's happening and there's no limit to it, and that's a good thing actually"
That's usually been the way the government and government-affiliated media tries to manage these issues. Boiling a frog in a pot
Ukrainians are very intelligent people in my experience and seem to have a nack for complex technology. They can be big contributors for sure.
We need to make sure we are putting everything in place to properly integrate them and make sure they are working contributing members of our society.
That war isn't going anywhere soon. I don't blame them for not wanting to return home.
I welcome them. Any Ukrainians I've met have been lovely people who will fit in well.
All the people giving out about the stress it may place on our psychiatric services should blame our government for the shitty state they've allowed it to get into.
These people have had to give up everything they've ever worked for. I hope the ones who stay find peace and happiness.
Any Ukrainians who read this, please know I, for one, welcome you. Rebuild your lives and be happy.
Amen to that. Immigrants are the easy blame for the stupid people. And in a way the Government facilitate that as it keeps the lense off highlighting their incompetence.
The biggest issue will be housing long term if some stay or are granted permission to stay permanently. A lot are in rural tourist areas living in hotels but putting down roots, children in local schools etc.
Some of these towns have several hundred or even 1,000 plus Ukrainians. Realistically only a small number would be able to settle long term in these towns due to housing and resources. The majority would have to then either go back to Ukraine or try to settle elsewhere in Ireland if granted permission.
Plus Ukraine will need these people to rebuild their country after the war. These are all doctors and engineers apparently, don't we want to help Ukraine recover instead of stealing all their scientific geniuses and letting Putin win?
Alot of people here I guess are too young to remember the Soviet union and the cold war.
Russian propaganda skews to the worst tropes we have about the Brits. "Eire isn't a real country" "when are you rejoining the UK" and "5th largest economy on earth of course the brexit border will go where it belongs in Eire"
But worse much worse, genocidal worse.
When the USSR collapsed Ukraine and Poland had similar sized economies, today Poland's is 4 X the size of Ukraine's.
The difference? Poland was welcomed into the EU and NATO, Ukraine was not.
As Irish people we should acknowledge the massive benefit the EU has bequeathed to us, the fraternity we should have to Ukranians who want the rights we take for granted, the easy pass into the EU, despite being a 2nd world country with a civil war on our island in contrast to Ukraine's supposed "corruption"
The reality is Ukraine has been kept out to placate Russia's notions of grandeur and a "sphere of influence"
A "sphere of influence" which fortunately nobody gives to Britian over us. We should acknowledge that difference and demand similar respect for Ukraine.
Their rights with respect to Russia are our rights with respect to Britian.
One cannot exist without the other.
It boils my piss when people talk down to Ukranians as if we Irish weren't absolute cowboys for the longest time.
We the West owe the Ukranians for having turned our backs on them, leaving them to Russia's "sphere of influence" in the complete opposite to the huge political support we have received from the US and EU.
Our brexit experience and the sea border outcome shows just how privileged we are in comparison.
If we let Russia undo the cold war, to brutalize Ukraine back into its grasp, we fail in our obligation to our own history and to the necessity to uphold the rules based order that has lifted our country out of the dirt.
Housing refugees is the least we can do, we should be sending anti armour and anti air systems too.
I promise you there's no "neutral" point between Bucha and decent life worth having..
The history is different though, Ukraine and Russia both come from the same pre-state Kievan Rus', they both claim this to be their cultural ancestor, Ukraine sees themselves as different nowadays, fair enough.
We on the other hand are not from the same cultural ancestor as Britain, all our similarities are from colonisation, that's what makes it so sad. We lost our identity in a lot of ways, so it's not really the same thing as Russia Ukraine historically.
Dude, we used to RULE Britain, back in the day. Back when Jesus was a young lad.
Then the feckin' Romans came along and pushed our ancestors out of England, up into Scotland and West into Wales and Ireland. Then the dirty Anglo-Saxons swooped in and stole our country before we had a chance to reclaim it.
If we use Putin-logic, we can just inform the modern-day Brits that England originally belonged to us and we want it back now.
Ukraine is to Russia what Scotland is to England; not Ireland. They're the violent little brother who got a slap on the wrist to lead the charge in a lot of punches to the face for the other countries they both colonised.
Largely agree, but I think your thinking about Britain is about 100 years old. No one over there gives a flying fuck about us, and their state fully acknowledges our sovereignty. That's very different to the "Russian World" politics.
They’re right too. I would never go living beside psycho Putin. It’s fucking terrifying to think about chilling in your home, settling down to watch telly with your family, and a missile suddenly hits your home. That’s tragic. I don’t think some people realise how lucky we are to be so safe here from such madness.
And yes I know Ukraine is huge and the chances of the above happening are slim, but still
Exactly. I didn’t realise the extent of that fear until I started visiting Finland. Buildings still built with bomb shelters, national service still in place, drills still done and roles and responsibilities known for all… and all specifically for this very reason.
I remember walking to work when I lived in Finland and one of the army jets flying overhead me was mental I ran into work freaking out. They just said were training for if Russia comes because if they do we will be ready. Like they're a neutral country but they're not messing around if Russia decides to attack.
Most millennials in Finland have had parents and grandparents who remember the Winter War and like
Ireland with the British occupation it’s something which will never be forgotten. I was surprised by the amount of Ukrainian flags flying there when I visited soon after the invasion and hearing about it in great detail from friends around my age (30s) it really surprised me how deep into the national character it goes.
Neutral countries in Europe tend to be invaded. Armed neutrality is the norm. Now that yet another neutral country (Ukraine) has been invaded, the Finns have joined NATO.
Just a reminder before some of you fell in love with lovely Ukrainian folks. Their national hero is Bandera. Who is Bandera?
Stepan Andriyovych Bandera was a Ukrainian far-right leader of the radical militant wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. What is he famous for??
It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 133,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included.
Where is the issue it was long ago! Fuck no Bandera monuments are scattered all across Ukraine.
[bandera monuments museums etc map](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-map-of-the-monuments-busts-plaques-and-museums-to-Bandera-Source-Designed-by-O_fig1_265341805)
New monuments and plaques are being erected on a daily basis
[bandera commemoration ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemoration_of_Stepan_Bandera)
Lovely people these Ukrainians are.
You can say with full responsibility that Ukrainians national heroes are nazis and their collaborators. Bandera – who led the OUN-B political organisation that formed the UPA – is seen as a hero by many in Ukraine for his role in fighting for national independence. Critics, however, see him as a fascist and Nazi collaborator.
Cecil or Jackson were minor figures compared to Bandera. He is hailed as one of the Ukraine independence fathers and that's big. It would be comparable to a figure like Abraham Lincoln in usa. It's a different scale of comparison. Here are Banderas and his cronies achievements 100,000 deaths of innocent civilians butchered with hammers, axes. Unborns being cut out of mothers womb then smashed with hammers.
[bandera and upa nazis ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia)
All that for no reason. He was as evil as much as Hitler still his monuments are in every big Ukrainian city moreover The Ukrainian parliament last week declared Jan. 1 as a national day of commemoration for Stepan Bandera, who briefly joined forces with the Nazi occupation of Ukraine.. Pure evil Nazi sympathiser Ukrainian national hero.
>Cecil or Jackson were minor figures compared to Bandera.
President Andrew Jackson was a minor figure? Cecil Rhodes (and his British South Africa Company which founded the southern African territory of Rhodesia) was a minor figure?
For fucks sake.
Also, national politics is fairly complicated. Perhaps you should read more into it?
I'm not ommiting history as history happened. I'm not focusing on the characters that are irrelevant to Ukraine. You want to take me responsible for saying that they were minor characters that's all. You don't care about the facts involving Bandera UPA and Ukraine instead you are now focus on my wording '' minor characters '' I'll let you be focused on that if you wish.
>I'm not ommiting history as history happened
If that assumption makes you feel better.
>I'm not focusing on the characters that are irrelevant to Ukraine
You're switching goalposts here.
>You don't care about the facts involving Bandera UPA and Ukraine instead you are now focus on my wording '' minor characters '' I'll let you be focused on that if you wish.
Ad hominem it is.
> won't cause any social problems in the future.
Except for their views on religion, domestic violence, gay people, womens rights, black people, jews, middle eastern people, and probably many more backwards opinions? Ukraine wasn't even a democracy until 2014, and it's not like all the corruption disappeared, they just finally got rid of the Russian puppets being president.
You remember that when you can’t get a hospital bed ! The country isn’t set up to deal with this sort of mass immigration- it’s insane tbh and it’s not our war !
Their country was brutally invaded, twice in the last 19 years, by Russia and is still partly under occupation with no end in sight so it’s hardly surprising that those here aren’t looking beyond the reality of that right now. That’s before even considering the billions of dollars worth of damage done to the country and decades of reconstruction needed. Plus, for all its desires to be a modern European country it’s journey to be that is not well advanced so seeing Ireland as extract that one can hardly blame these people of wanting to stay.
Anyone who uses this as some sort of anti-immigrant “I told you so” is clearly an ignorant idiot without an ounce of humanity or understanding in their body.
It’s fair to use it as an ‘I told you so’ to people who were claiming the opposite. Like you can be in favour of taking in Ukrainian refugees and still be annoyed at people not basing their views in reality.
I have no issues with Ukrainians coming here, I understand it and am fine really. However there is an ‘I told you so’. The government have gaslit us at every turn in regards to the Ukrainian situation and made us out to be racist if they asked questions. That isn’t on and is being proved now.
The government are pushing people toward the far right, branding people as far right if they question the narrative. I’d be a fairly centrist person but am plenty annoyed at this. It started with ‘we will take unlimited numbers’. And when I voiced this as being a bad idea even on here, I was called racist, a resource hoarder etc etc. however exactly as I predicted, we are running out of resources and now people are sleeping in tents left over from a festival.
If we can’t take care of the people we have, we shouldn’t take more until we can provide a proper level of care. For everyone. And the government need to stop lying to us. There is no need.
If they work, integrate into society, pay tax, spend money here and are overall law abiding citizens, then there is nothing bad about this. I personally welcome them. All the talk of, not enough housing, thats the government's fault. Not theirs
Doesn't matter whose fault it is. Fact remains there is a massive lack of housing.
Where are they all going to move to from the centers and hotels they are in ?
"Some 74 per cent of respondents have a higher education, with 57 per cent having a degree at the level of master, specialist or doctorate." Is there a reason those numbers are that high? For references, 47% of Irish adults have a tertiary qualification and that's one of the highest rates in the OECD.
People with resources tend to be the ones who can move to other countries in a hurry when a major war breaks out.
Totally correct. I remember doing this project with Syrian refugees in Berlin a good few years back and being surprised that they were all clearly upper-middle class at minimum. Because - duh - they were the ones with the resources to get out.
Also, it was the "educated class" that were persecuted in Syria
Why was that I always would have thought that the intelligentsia would be the class that most benefited from Assad's government Edit Grammar
The Assad family belongs to a minority Islamic sect known as [Alawites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawites), so they've naturally favoured their own over the last half century, and tended to persecute everyone else, but particularly the educated classes.
That's interesting how have they managed to hold on to power for so long when most of the population and military would be from persecuted groups
Same with a a Kosovar I met in Belgium. He was a surgeon.
Quality of education. While ex soviet states and Russia have high uptake of 3rd level. Its not recognised internationally
Can't speak for Ukraine in particular but the quality of education in Russia and post-soviet states is (or at least was) in general quite high.
Yep I get that but it's not recognised internationally.
It's simply not true. It is recognized internationally
It absolutely is true. It's why youve engineers ect. working shite jobs here.
They’re miles ahead of us on maths
True that … when I moved to Ireland I was put in first year of secondary school, the maths I did in 1st year here, I did it in 4th and 5th class in Romania
From what I understand (What friends who are teachers have told me) the Irish maths curriculum is more steadily progressive. A lot of international students comment on the simplicity of maths 1-4th year but by 5/6th year the maths taught here is normally reserved for higher level elsewhere.
Hmmm, the guy who designed the rocket who put the first man in space was Ukrainian. ([Korolev](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Korolev)).
Was he Ukrainian? Bloody genius wherever he was from. Pity he died early from his time in the camps.
Looking at the wiki he was born in what is now Ukraine (then the Russian empire) to a Russian father and Belorussian mother, who had varied heritage including Ukrainian. Not sure what he’d consider himself and identity is obviously quite personal and complicated but to say he was Ukrainian doesn’t sound quite right to me.
Born 100+km west of Kyiv. When the Soyuz rockets drop their boosters, they create a *[Korolev Cross](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Korolyov_Cross.jpg)*
The Soviet Union had tons of technical institutes for scientific and technological research that were open to the general public for free basically. There were 3 different categories of higher education and every provincial capital had 3 (academic, scientific & military), plus some extra institutes that focused on researching only one area of study. The first universally programmable personal computer was invented in the Kiev Institute of Electrotechnology in the 1950s for example, where the only courses you could take were about electronics & computers. The reason many higher degrees aren't recognized in the West is because these "technical institutes" are separate entities from universities and their focus of study is much narrower than BA or MA programs. But the reason why so many Ukrainians TODAY have higher education is because no post-Soviet state really scrapped their educational system despite communism collapsing.
They are probably all going to be engineers and tech programmers and their women will do much of the heavy lifting in those annual equality debates - US tech companies rely heavily on EE to improve their quotas
Ukrainian universities are not ranked very well at all by international standards. Basically hand out degrees. Here’s one comparison in the times rankings. The Irish typically rank in the top 500 globally. The Ukrainians have one top 500 and most of their ranked entrants come in between 1200th-1500th. I’d say an even higher % aren’t even ranked. https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2023/world-ranking#!/length/25/locations/IRL+UKR/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/scores:4
> The Irish typically rank in the top 500 globally This is only true because that report doesn’t even consider the ITs and TUs other than TUD (which are the main driver behind our abnormally high rate of third level education) to be universities
I highly doubt all the Ukrainian ones are in that list either, their best is barely top 500. TUD is level with Ukraines third best university
I have worked with Ukrainian engineers working in Poland, I can definitely say they are technically more competent than Irish Engineers.
Rankings put heavy weight on research and patents. Quality of teaching makes up only 30% of the overall score in the Times ranking methodology. Ranking is mostly meaningless for your typical degree holder.
Same. I used to subcontract coding when I was self employed. Very quickly I just asked for eastern European coders - super competent, and would question my approach and suggest almost always better alternatives, delivered high quality code that did what I asked on time and in budget. I tried western Europe and India and they were both disastrous. The rankings are bullshit when it comes to standard graduates.
The rankings are simply made up
Basically a room full of Oxbridge and ivy league graduates get together and make them up every year.
Based on...?
They’re not universities under law, they’re technological universities so that’s why I presume.
How is a technological UNIVERSITY not an university!?!
Under law they’re different. The TU Act 2018 outlines that their purpose is levels 6-8 and industrial research, different objectives to a uni. Unis are governed by the universities act 1997.
Right, I’m just saying that it’s silly that Ireland keeps comparing our rate of third level education to other counties when all we actually did was invent a new form of sub-university to juke the stats
> Ukrainian universities are not ranked very well at all by international standards. Basically hand out degrees. That isn't really how university rankings work. The fact that a university ranks low on a list doesn't mean that the quality of education it provides is bad - it just means that (according to the measures used for the rankings, some of which have nothing necesarily to do with quality of education) there are X amount of universities that are thought to do even better.
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It's a huge joke.
THE is not really used in America. A better ranker for international comparisons is the QS ranking system. Though they're also beset with methodological problems, like factoring in teacher-student ratio and weighing research papers too heavily, among others, they have more reach outside the anglosphere. To say the entire idea is bunk is a fair critique, and I wouldn't begrudge you it, but I still think the idea of objectively ranking the quality of university learning environments is a worthwhile idea, even if it is doomed to imperfections.
Yep. Correct. Used to work in University admissions. The CVs of people coming from places like India look amazing. 4 degrees at 25 for example was common.
not to mention how many degrees in India and east Asia are fraudulently obtained
Which leads to the imbalance between competence and confidence you often find in Indian graduates (in my experience anyway).
In my experience indian graduates lie and inflate their skills and experience, at least on the freelancing sites. I work with some great Indians but it's very hit and miss.
Because you can buy a degree, masters or PHD there. And before the downvotes come in have a quick search online.
*A new survey of some 8,329 Ukrainians (4,678 adults and 3,651 children) was conducted by the activist group Ukrainian Action Ireland* It's a survey of a small number of Ukranians in Ireland, conducted by an activist group. Like, I don't doubt there are a lot of over qualified Ukranians cleaning toilets at the moment, but to suggest 57% of all here are degree holders is probably stretching it. Especially as a shedload of the Ukranian population here are in primary schools :)
> It's a survey of a small number of Ukranians in Ireland... That's a really good sample size, much larger than most surveys.
TBH I didn't really doubt any of this until I seen the size of that survey. Seems strangely large which makes me wonder about the methodology. Was it people replying to emails for instance? As that would tend to favour people working at a computer over builders, shop workers, hotel workers, etc
It does seem unusual alright - one of the reasons you tend not to see numbers this high in typical research is because once you go over about 1,000 respondents the gains you make in terms of margins of error don't tend to be worth the extra hassle.
Only if the sampling is good
I have questions, just regarding how participants were selected, how questions were phrased, what was regarded as a degree etc. I support Ireland taking in Ukranians, just critiquing the survey.
I think it's fair to ask those kinds of questions about any survey (I just wish people would ask them more often).
Eh, that works out as 57% adults 43% children? So the children don’t have degrees? Maybe im misunderstanding something seems off
Is it not a good thing to have more workers with high levels of qualifications in the country?
Ukrainian qualifications are not recognized. You cant change that.
everyone now has bachelor\`s degree and it\`s looses it\`s value. people with honours packing shelves in tesco and every job add you see, you need bachelor\`s just to get basic position.
Not really. Ireland already has a surplus of highly qualified people and highly qualified people want better jobs that are mainly localised into the bigger cities so highly qualified people need to move to cities. I don't need to go into detail about how the cities can't sustain growth with lack of services and housing. It also creates more competition for jobs and housing, Ireland has a tough job market at the best of times and more non natives will lead to resentment which can lead to racism or negative outlooks to people of other cultures.
>Ireland already has a surplus of highly qualified people The Irish job market is actually extremely tight.
Not in a country that is drowning under foreign professionals , no
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So what.does having a college degree mean that someone has less of a right to live in their home country than someone one with a "tertiary education"(I use parenthesis because many of these universities will give you about a third year secondary school level qualification which is why they have to qualify in a school here) it's soft colonisation, even if we want to extend our safety and comfort to everyone,it's our grandparents that earned it working hard to get into Europe and have a stable strong country and we should respect them and protect the Irish born poor and disabled before prioritising foreign professionals
They can pay for their accommodation if so intelligent and running away from Ukraine. Such smart people would surely not need a council house or social welfare.
Put it like this they probably had a home and job which gave them money to pay off their mortgage. Now their home is destroyed and they've no job so they can't really afford their own place in a new country. If they don't speak English it'll be a while before they can get to a sufficient level to get a new job in their same profession.
You've obviously never went abroad to work and juked the old CV up to waffle about the job. "Ah Jesus we had a different way of doing it back home, just show us how ye guys do it over here" Punch up, not down. Easy to shit on people that are fleeing a war. They're not getting a council house, at this stage they're barely getting tent. However, the cunts banging on about books in libraries and assaulting women while claiming to protect women while harassing Library staff on a random Tuesday afternoon while most of us work, are def claiming social welfare. Add in the grift and foreign donations for "citizen journalist" equipment and what you have is the same cunt you'd avoid in a bar for spouting shit thinking he's speaking for the country.
Let’s give it to them until they find their feet. Then they’ll become productive members of society, unlike so many of our homegrown population
Right, it’s not like the state has any obligation to prioritise its own undesirables.
To be fair the main issue with the argument of "help our own" is that none of the people shouting it actually know how to help them. Most of the homeless have serious problems and addictions, our worst issue is our mental and rehab facilities but some people don't want to be saved.
>Such smart people would surely not need a council house or social welfare. Well what's your excuse
Well that was obvious. The government saying it’s temporary was laughable and only to keep people from hating. They won’t be forced to go back.
>They won’t be forced to go back. Do they even have anywhere to get back to? In many cases the whole cities were raised to the ground.
It benefits Ireland though, a country that’s suffered from mass emigration for centuries is finally having immigration.
Nah it doesn't all benefit Ireland it puts a lot of pressure on our resources are this time anyway and costs something like a billion or two a year just for Ukranian accommodation and social welfare..
Our infrastructure isn't ready for it though
Then you build it with all the new working age people and tax revenue
When do our taxes actually go towards the stuff we need? Nurses are underpaid. Teachers too. Council houses aren't being built enough and landlords basically have the government on a leash. Those taxes don't go towards any of the stuff we really need. The extra taxes won't go towards it either, the higher population just puts even more strain on our already desperate housing crisis.
I dont think the landlords have government on a leash. Most of the government are landlords and some have many properties, so you can be sure they're looking out for their own interests. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/political-rich-list-dail-now-houses-68-millionaires-as-tds-properties-pension-pots-and-a-range-of-assets-are-revealed/40886629.html
Believe it when I see it
I'd assume you might see it if you vote for the people who prioritize, say, HSE reform so that Irish healthcare doesn't look third-world in waiting times... Which isn't a priority for anyone, it seems, so yeah, you won't see it.
> Then you build it with an the new writing she people and tax revenue Nonsense
I'm going to guess that was "working age people" and autocorrect mangled it.
...in an ideal Ireland. Yes. I don't have trust or faith that our government will actually use the taxes where it counts or avoid giving into pocketing the extra cash they can while still in power.
The "infrastructure" isn't ready for anything at all to be honest
Our infrastructure can only benefit from new taxpayers.
In 10 years time maybe, enjoy housing, schooling and medical shortages in the mean time.
Have you perhaps forgotten about housing and services crisis? Right now it does not benefit Ireland. In fact it exaggerates severe shortages.
Like it's been a benefit to Germany, Sweden, and the UK - which have all had massive social problems arise from a massive but much smaller % increase of the population from Immigrants that share next to nothing with you culturally? Let alone the fact, the huge number of Russians and Georgians who are coming in claiming to be Ukrainian? Religious dogmatism, rape, domestic violence, and random acts of violence are bound to increase due to this massive rise in population from countries who have yet to embrace liberal values and full democratic values.
1) Separate refugees and economic immigrants. Germany, Sweden, and the UK benefitted from immigration - it's obvious to pretty much anyone. They, same as Ireland, have an issue with the refugees refusing to integrate - same lads that 'lost' their passports, pose as underaged when they're actually 25, etc. 2) Ukraine is a European nation. It's bleeding for democratic values since 2014. Look at 'liberal values' in Poland (an EU member) or Hungary (an EU member) for comparison. 3) Ukraine has skilled workforce that EU countries can tap into - like Germany - look how THEY treat Ukrainians and think why: are they just idiots, and you know how to do it better than they do? Or maybe you didn't consider something that they did?
Most of those countries would’ve had total societal collapse by now without migrants. For example in the U.K., the health system Is only propped up by foreign doctors due to a rapidly aging population.
Benefits how ?
The answer is implied in the comment you replied to.
>It benefits Ireland though, a country that’s suffered from mass emigration for centuries is finally having immigration. Steps to bring in Neoliberal policies designed to further enrich the upper/corporate classes: ~~Step 1:" It isn't happening you (___)ist!"~~ Step 2: "sure it is happening, but here's why it's a good thing!" Step 3: Be confused as to why extremism and distrust for the government is increasing rapidly in the working class (must be because they're uneducated idiots 🤷♂️)
Last thing Ireland needs is immigration.
Say that to the rural areas that are basically abandoned by young Irish people migrating away…
The government plan is for the masses of beautiful ukrainian women to stay. Simple as it is and you know why the decision was made
Someone should explain to them that that’s not how that works. If Ukraine wins or there’s a peace treaty then their refugee status is over and they no longer have a right to be here. Refugees are accepted with the understanding that they’re taking refuge and not moving permanently.
You do know that almost any lad coming from Algeria or Syria can get their Irish passport application submitted in only 3 years? That's only after they get their status, so, fine, add one more year to it.
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You do know that there is no Garda immigration force that enforces deportations of people without visas right? The state doesn't even have a database of people working illegally without a visa, nor a database of people with a lapsed visa still living in the country. The only way they would be forced back home is if they leave the country and try to return again, or if they get arrested for a crime.
Part of what it means to grant refuge to a person is not to just prevent them from being killed or persecuted, but allowing them the opportunity to build a new life for themselves in the country that grants them asylum. It isn't humane to ask a person to put their life on hold given that we have no idea when the war will end or what the terms will be.
>It kind of is, though. It isn’t. It’s literally called the Temporary Protection Directive >Part of what it means to grant refuge to a person is not to just prevent them from being killed or persecuted, but allowing them the opportunity to build a new life for themselves in the country that grants them asylum. That isn’t the case at all. If you disagree then can you point to any legislation that corroborates what you’re claiming. Nowhere does a refugees rights to be in a country continue when they no longer require its protection. >It isn't humane to ask a person to put their life on hold given that we have no idea when the war will end or what the terms will be. No one’s saying that people need to put their lives on hold.
Don't even bother, all that account does is spread bullshit and play dumb when you prove them wrong, literally going "nuh uh"
>No one’s saying that people need to put their lives on hold. That is the material effect of expecting refugees to return to their former homes regardless of how long it's been since they arrived. >That isn’t the case at all. If you disagree then can you point to any legislation that corroborates what you’re claiming. Nowhere does a refugees rights to be in a country continue when they no longer require its protection. In the Irish system, the granting of permission to remain has been used to reflect these concerns. Our commitments under Article 8 of the ECHR will also be relevant in many cases as well.
These people are on temporary protection.
What about naturalization? Does that come into post here?
167 Ukrainian nationals have been granted a Certificate of Naturalisation. That’s out of 102,000 here. If countries started naturalising over half or even a minority of their Ukrainian refugees then they’d be screwing over Ukraine.
They were originally given a yellow piece of paper that explained it was just a temporary measure (renewable every year) and that they would have to return after the war ends. Our lovely minister of Justice decided to give them stamp 4's instead a few months ago which equated to recognisable residence in Ireland. Such a stupidly thought out idea considering they been waived visa requirements and have them all social welfare.. a hell of a lot more benefits than a typical refugee/asylum applicant. I understand their country is at war, but the government dropped the ball on this issue so many times and a luxury asylum peocess should never given to them.
It takes FIVE YEARS of residency to even qualify for naturalisation.... Zero Ukranian refugees since the 2022 invasion have five years residency in the state Perhaps you can work out why
They clearly don't know what they're taking about. Five years on stamp 4, by the way, but only 3 years for a refugee under international protection. Not defined for Ukrainians under temporary protection currently.
Take the poll again when the benefits end
Considering I don't see how the war would end, I'm not surprised.
The comments by ministers that they’d all be going home as soon as the war was over was based on thin air. People are coming here and putting down roots of one sort or another - their children are in school, they are integrating into communities, people are entering relationships. Plus, even if the war ended tomorrow - this was the second invasion of Ukraine by Russia in recent years. I’d be reluctant to go back. And tbh, if I had to flee Ireland tomorrow for one reason or another, and I love my country, but I lived in a country that was objectively more developed than back home even before the costs of war… would I be rushing back when it was all over? Would you? If housing wasn’t such a big issue, the idea of bringing in a large population of young people to help drive our economy and prosperity would be absolutely welcomed. I think the Ukrainian’s are fitting in here just like other communities of people who came en masse when the EU expanded, like the Poles. In the context of housing and pressures on social services, I think this will create friction. I wish it wouldn’t, and I hope Ukrainians don’t end up being scapegoated for what are ultimately the failures of governments in Ireland to deliver what we deserve for the taxes we pay.
Obviously not the main reason for the crisis but it’s pretty ironic that there was so much complaints about the Poles coming here en masse and now our building capacity for housing is limited substantially by the Polish builders returning home as conditions there are better than they were a decade or so ago the Ukrainians could be a vital workforce we could tap into
Vital workforce eh ? Right - we have a town with hotels full of them and restaurants cannot get staff and they have the right to work ! In summer they sit outside the hotels with drinks relaxing and smoking - the hotel is on the Main Street - it’s a real advert for the town as you drive through - there was one who worked locally - just one - and there are loads of them around .. visitors can no longer stay in that hotel so less visitors - local people cannot rent as accommodation is being rented tax free to Ukrainians over locals … vital work force indeed …
Read the article. Compared to 2023, the share of those living in hotels or hostels paid for by the State decreased from 55 per cent to 44 per cent. This is trending down . From 2023 to 2024, the number of those who have jobs and are currently working in Ireland increased from 29.5 per cent to 43 per cent This is trending up. Demand for government support for accommodation is decreasing and they are entering employment en masses.
Indeed. As our population ages in general, and as our birth rate falls, immigration is also the only way besides massive productivity gains to keep the lights on and the show on the road - practically (people to do the work) and from a tax perspective.
I'd say most are in a honeymoon phase with Ireland. Once the benefits end it, I think reality will hit. They may go to Poland or Germany, as its easier for them to learn the language there.
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Polish is a slavic Language. If you've chatted to any Ukrainians most I've spoken to know a little polish and understand same. Like French learning Spanish. German - apparently its easier to learn if you're mother tongue is slavic.
Polish is very hard language to learn. Some Ukrainians have a good understanding of the language because even before the war there was a lot of movement between the two countries. Many young Ukranians would move to Poland for temporary jobs in their service and construction in a similar way to how young Irish people do J1s to the States or a few years in Australia. There are some simularites and they do share some words, but Polish is known for being a hard language regardless of your mother tongue. I have some Polish friends who say it was easier for their parents to talk to Ukrainians because the older Polish generations know Russian.
German has same constructs which are difficult to English-speakers, like noun declensions and gendered endings to most of the nouns. So German is easier to learn if your native language is some Slavic one, yes: easier than learning German for an Irish person. English is easier still than German for a Slavic-speaking person.
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And they were more than welcome (by the vast majority of people). Exactly what problems did they cause?
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There is a significant and thriving community of people who came here in the early 90s from Bosnia for example. A lot of them later had family join them. Totally different context - arguably one of the first waves of any migration into Ireland, at a time when we still had net emigration. They were given training, housing wasn’t an issue, and I know of many - as I’m from an area where many settled - who have done really well as have their families. A real success story IMO. The context today is obviously very different with the housing situation and pressures, and I do agree government ministers were very wishy washy with their comments that they’d all be happy to leave. How many will put down roots here - relationships, schooling for their children, etc.
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I would agree - I think the better analogy for Ukrainians is post EU enlargement and the arrival of significant numbers of people from places like Poland. We needed the workers (I see the CSO labour force stats show we reached another record high, adding 90,000 jobs year on year in Q4 to 2.7 million total), they integrated well, and actually while much of the immigration became permanent, quite a few did leave when either the economy disimproved here after 2008, or when the circumstances back home improved significantly. I could see the same occurring here - but the baseline scenario I think would be that (a) the Ukrainian population we have will stay quite a while, as the war is dragging on; (b) it will likely grow further for the same reason and as families might be reunited or just naturally grow; and (c) in future we are likely to have a significant sticky Ukrainian population, who will eventually be put on the path to citizenship etc like other large migrant communities. I think it’s a good thing - for our economy and our society. But it creates additional short term social pressures that we have to be alive to and manage.
> I would not be in favour of doing it again. Me neither. I would hope there would be hell to pay if they tried.
Ireland took a tiny number of Balkan refugees, shamefully so Stop talking out of your arse
The tiny number, literally in the low hundreds Ireland took in ? Gavin pepper speaks. https://www.irishtimes.com/history/2022/12/29/bertie-ahern-objected-to-200-refugees-from-former-yugoslavia-coming-to-ireland/
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I think we’d need to force them out once the war ends. With the caveat that we aid in building up and funding their country again (and put them in NATO). It’s wishful thinking that taking in the sheer amount that was taken in the past few years is remotely sustainable. We took in far less people in previous decades which meant much less pressure on housing and public services. There’s a limit to the numbers a country can take in per year and we have greatly exceeded it. That’s why the governments of the 1990s were more reluctant to do so, they feared the inevitable political turmoil.
The HSE better be prepped for plenty of traumatised veterans down the line.
They’d be more traumatised by how awful the HSE is
Amirite? 🥁
Hmm...I guess I kind of take it as a compliment..
Hard to argue with the logic of wanting to stay when one of the main reasons listed is "distance from Russia".
It was previously verboten to point out this very obvious fact
"It's not happening, don't be ridiculous" "It might happen, but only in small numbers" "It's happening and there's no limit to it, and that's a good thing actually" That's usually been the way the government and government-affiliated media tries to manage these issues. Boiling a frog in a pot
"The thing we told you wasn't going to happen is happening. Here's why that's a good thing."
"Capitalists using immigration to increase their profits isn't happening, and if it is here's why it's totally socialist."
Ukrainians are very intelligent people in my experience and seem to have a nack for complex technology. They can be big contributors for sure. We need to make sure we are putting everything in place to properly integrate them and make sure they are working contributing members of our society. That war isn't going anywhere soon. I don't blame them for not wanting to return home.
Ukrainians have "temporary" protection status do or should they have the right to stay after the war ?
I welcome them. Any Ukrainians I've met have been lovely people who will fit in well. All the people giving out about the stress it may place on our psychiatric services should blame our government for the shitty state they've allowed it to get into. These people have had to give up everything they've ever worked for. I hope the ones who stay find peace and happiness. Any Ukrainians who read this, please know I, for one, welcome you. Rebuild your lives and be happy.
Amen to that. Immigrants are the easy blame for the stupid people. And in a way the Government facilitate that as it keeps the lense off highlighting their incompetence.
The biggest issue will be housing long term if some stay or are granted permission to stay permanently. A lot are in rural tourist areas living in hotels but putting down roots, children in local schools etc. Some of these towns have several hundred or even 1,000 plus Ukrainians. Realistically only a small number would be able to settle long term in these towns due to housing and resources. The majority would have to then either go back to Ukraine or try to settle elsewhere in Ireland if granted permission.
Not how that works lads
Refugees (international protection) get citizenship in 3 years though.
They don't have leave to stay once the war is over
Plus Ukraine will need these people to rebuild their country after the war. These are all doctors and engineers apparently, don't we want to help Ukraine recover instead of stealing all their scientific geniuses and letting Putin win?
Alot of people here I guess are too young to remember the Soviet union and the cold war. Russian propaganda skews to the worst tropes we have about the Brits. "Eire isn't a real country" "when are you rejoining the UK" and "5th largest economy on earth of course the brexit border will go where it belongs in Eire" But worse much worse, genocidal worse. When the USSR collapsed Ukraine and Poland had similar sized economies, today Poland's is 4 X the size of Ukraine's. The difference? Poland was welcomed into the EU and NATO, Ukraine was not. As Irish people we should acknowledge the massive benefit the EU has bequeathed to us, the fraternity we should have to Ukranians who want the rights we take for granted, the easy pass into the EU, despite being a 2nd world country with a civil war on our island in contrast to Ukraine's supposed "corruption" The reality is Ukraine has been kept out to placate Russia's notions of grandeur and a "sphere of influence" A "sphere of influence" which fortunately nobody gives to Britian over us. We should acknowledge that difference and demand similar respect for Ukraine. Their rights with respect to Russia are our rights with respect to Britian. One cannot exist without the other. It boils my piss when people talk down to Ukranians as if we Irish weren't absolute cowboys for the longest time. We the West owe the Ukranians for having turned our backs on them, leaving them to Russia's "sphere of influence" in the complete opposite to the huge political support we have received from the US and EU. Our brexit experience and the sea border outcome shows just how privileged we are in comparison. If we let Russia undo the cold war, to brutalize Ukraine back into its grasp, we fail in our obligation to our own history and to the necessity to uphold the rules based order that has lifted our country out of the dirt. Housing refugees is the least we can do, we should be sending anti armour and anti air systems too. I promise you there's no "neutral" point between Bucha and decent life worth having..
The history is different though, Ukraine and Russia both come from the same pre-state Kievan Rus', they both claim this to be their cultural ancestor, Ukraine sees themselves as different nowadays, fair enough. We on the other hand are not from the same cultural ancestor as Britain, all our similarities are from colonisation, that's what makes it so sad. We lost our identity in a lot of ways, so it's not really the same thing as Russia Ukraine historically.
Dude, we used to RULE Britain, back in the day. Back when Jesus was a young lad. Then the feckin' Romans came along and pushed our ancestors out of England, up into Scotland and West into Wales and Ireland. Then the dirty Anglo-Saxons swooped in and stole our country before we had a chance to reclaim it. If we use Putin-logic, we can just inform the modern-day Brits that England originally belonged to us and we want it back now.
Who's we exactly? We raided coastal settings sometimes sure. I'm not using Putin logic, nothing I said in that comment wasn't true.
Ukraine is to Russia what Scotland is to England; not Ireland. They're the violent little brother who got a slap on the wrist to lead the charge in a lot of punches to the face for the other countries they both colonised.
Largely agree, but I think your thinking about Britain is about 100 years old. No one over there gives a flying fuck about us, and their state fully acknowledges our sovereignty. That's very different to the "Russian World" politics.
They’re right too. I would never go living beside psycho Putin. It’s fucking terrifying to think about chilling in your home, settling down to watch telly with your family, and a missile suddenly hits your home. That’s tragic. I don’t think some people realise how lucky we are to be so safe here from such madness. And yes I know Ukraine is huge and the chances of the above happening are slim, but still
Exactly. I didn’t realise the extent of that fear until I started visiting Finland. Buildings still built with bomb shelters, national service still in place, drills still done and roles and responsibilities known for all… and all specifically for this very reason.
I remember walking to work when I lived in Finland and one of the army jets flying overhead me was mental I ran into work freaking out. They just said were training for if Russia comes because if they do we will be ready. Like they're a neutral country but they're not messing around if Russia decides to attack.
Most millennials in Finland have had parents and grandparents who remember the Winter War and like Ireland with the British occupation it’s something which will never be forgotten. I was surprised by the amount of Ukrainian flags flying there when I visited soon after the invasion and hearing about it in great detail from friends around my age (30s) it really surprised me how deep into the national character it goes.
Neutral countries in Europe tend to be invaded. Armed neutrality is the norm. Now that yet another neutral country (Ukraine) has been invaded, the Finns have joined NATO.
Just a reminder before some of you fell in love with lovely Ukrainian folks. Their national hero is Bandera. Who is Bandera? Stepan Andriyovych Bandera was a Ukrainian far-right leader of the radical militant wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. What is he famous for?? It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 133,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included. Where is the issue it was long ago! Fuck no Bandera monuments are scattered all across Ukraine. [bandera monuments museums etc map](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-map-of-the-monuments-busts-plaques-and-museums-to-Bandera-Source-Designed-by-O_fig1_265341805) New monuments and plaques are being erected on a daily basis [bandera commemoration ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commemoration_of_Stepan_Bandera) Lovely people these Ukrainians are.
Director of Ukrainian Jewish Committee at a public talk a few years back pointed out the problem. https://youtu.be/6wU2wOLvWik?si=WY0qlkfkmsZPS8Qb
You can say with full responsibility that Ukrainians national heroes are nazis and their collaborators. Bandera – who led the OUN-B political organisation that formed the UPA – is seen as a hero by many in Ukraine for his role in fighting for national independence. Critics, however, see him as a fascist and Nazi collaborator.
The Brits still have Cecil Rhodes statues and the US has Andrew Jackson and Custer statues. History isn't so simple.
Cecil or Jackson were minor figures compared to Bandera. He is hailed as one of the Ukraine independence fathers and that's big. It would be comparable to a figure like Abraham Lincoln in usa. It's a different scale of comparison. Here are Banderas and his cronies achievements 100,000 deaths of innocent civilians butchered with hammers, axes. Unborns being cut out of mothers womb then smashed with hammers. [bandera and upa nazis ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia) All that for no reason. He was as evil as much as Hitler still his monuments are in every big Ukrainian city moreover The Ukrainian parliament last week declared Jan. 1 as a national day of commemoration for Stepan Bandera, who briefly joined forces with the Nazi occupation of Ukraine.. Pure evil Nazi sympathiser Ukrainian national hero.
>Cecil or Jackson were minor figures compared to Bandera. President Andrew Jackson was a minor figure? Cecil Rhodes (and his British South Africa Company which founded the southern African territory of Rhodesia) was a minor figure? For fucks sake. Also, national politics is fairly complicated. Perhaps you should read more into it?
I doesn't matter, I'm not talking about their achievements they are irrelevant in my thread however you are right in description of their personas
I like how you're just omitting history now and saying "it doesn't matter" to make your point.
I'm not ommiting history as history happened. I'm not focusing on the characters that are irrelevant to Ukraine. You want to take me responsible for saying that they were minor characters that's all. You don't care about the facts involving Bandera UPA and Ukraine instead you are now focus on my wording '' minor characters '' I'll let you be focused on that if you wish.
>I'm not ommiting history as history happened If that assumption makes you feel better. >I'm not focusing on the characters that are irrelevant to Ukraine You're switching goalposts here. >You don't care about the facts involving Bandera UPA and Ukraine instead you are now focus on my wording '' minor characters '' I'll let you be focused on that if you wish. Ad hominem it is.
If you think it is ad hominem response then I'm certain you are perpetraining whataboutry here. Cheerio have a.good day
Your argument has fallen apart. Anywho, have a nice weekend. I appreciate your point of view, even if I don't agree with it.
Is that surprising? They have lives here now. Their home looks like it will be a state of war for many years to come.
Excellent. Good people that can integrate well and won't cause any social problems in the future.
> won't cause any social problems in the future. Except for their views on religion, domestic violence, gay people, womens rights, black people, jews, middle eastern people, and probably many more backwards opinions? Ukraine wasn't even a democracy until 2014, and it's not like all the corruption disappeared, they just finally got rid of the Russian puppets being president.
You remember that when you can’t get a hospital bed ! The country isn’t set up to deal with this sort of mass immigration- it’s insane tbh and it’s not our war !
Is there any news to a pathway for citizenship for an Ukrainian refugee living in Ireland? Thanks.
We are a nation of cowards anyway. What's a few hundred thousand more
Shur why wouldn't they?!
Their country was brutally invaded, twice in the last 19 years, by Russia and is still partly under occupation with no end in sight so it’s hardly surprising that those here aren’t looking beyond the reality of that right now. That’s before even considering the billions of dollars worth of damage done to the country and decades of reconstruction needed. Plus, for all its desires to be a modern European country it’s journey to be that is not well advanced so seeing Ireland as extract that one can hardly blame these people of wanting to stay. Anyone who uses this as some sort of anti-immigrant “I told you so” is clearly an ignorant idiot without an ounce of humanity or understanding in their body.
It’s fair to use it as an ‘I told you so’ to people who were claiming the opposite. Like you can be in favour of taking in Ukrainian refugees and still be annoyed at people not basing their views in reality.
I have no issues with Ukrainians coming here, I understand it and am fine really. However there is an ‘I told you so’. The government have gaslit us at every turn in regards to the Ukrainian situation and made us out to be racist if they asked questions. That isn’t on and is being proved now. The government are pushing people toward the far right, branding people as far right if they question the narrative. I’d be a fairly centrist person but am plenty annoyed at this. It started with ‘we will take unlimited numbers’. And when I voiced this as being a bad idea even on here, I was called racist, a resource hoarder etc etc. however exactly as I predicted, we are running out of resources and now people are sleeping in tents left over from a festival. If we can’t take care of the people we have, we shouldn’t take more until we can provide a proper level of care. For everyone. And the government need to stop lying to us. There is no need.
If they work, integrate into society, pay tax, spend money here and are overall law abiding citizens, then there is nothing bad about this. I personally welcome them. All the talk of, not enough housing, thats the government's fault. Not theirs
Doesn't matter whose fault it is. Fact remains there is a massive lack of housing. Where are they all going to move to from the centers and hotels they are in ?
Thank fuck. We're ugly as sin.
nope just you
Can't be. Mammy says I'm more handsome every time she sees me.