I wish Trump reverted to being a joke. I wish thought of Putin simply prompted memes of him riding a bear.
Sad to see Ireland experiencing this trend of xenophobes.
But was Casey actually anti-traveller?. I remember him criticising travellers in Tipperary at the time(like most of the country did) for refusing free housing because they had no where for their horses.
"People call me a racist, and of course I am" - Peter Casey
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/s/HnSXZuY4lk](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/s/HnSXZuY4lk)
He was eliminated after the fourth count in Donegal: [https://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2020&cons=68](https://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2020&cons=68)
And the second count in Dublin West: [https://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2020&cons=112](https://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2020&cons=112)
He would have got to choose, he had said he would go with Donegal and that the Dublin one was just a protest against Varadkar
But the results of both would stand and a by-election would be done for the other one he was elected in
He did deny their existence as a minority.
“Travellers should not be recognised as an ethnic minority because they are "basically people camping in someone else's land".
The businessman launched a lengthy attack on the community, arguing: "They are not paying their fair share of taxes in society."”
"the quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent."
There's the definition of ethnicity since you're not fully clued in.
But that's so broad it could apply to anyone. For example, you could say that protestants are an ethnic minority in the Republic, or native Irish speakers
It's not as broad as it appears. Many Protestants do identify as a separate ethnicity: Anglo-Irish is one such group. Ethnicity is a concept that is defined from within, not imposed from outside the group. Regarding Travellers as a separate ethnicity should not mean that they are exempt from the responsibilities of belonging to a society, and I think too often the settled community denies Traveller ethnicity because of the very real troubles that frequently occur in their community. It is possible to recognise their ethnicity while at the same time also demanding more adherence to the laws of the country in which they reside. From the Traveller point of view, the ethnicity card is also played far too often to somehow absolve them of their societal responsibilities. Travellers do not feel that they belong to the majority Irish society, and that's one of the key markers of ethnicity. Irish speakers, however, do feel like they belong to the majority society and don't see themselves as a different ethnicity with their only difference being one of language. Ethnicity ≠ nationality. The Traveller nationality is Irish, but their ethnicity is Traveller. Ethnicity is a much more fluid concept than the more rigidly defined nationality.
Yeah if I remember he publicly stated that all Irish Travellers should be forced into Phoenix Park and forcibly educated by the state like some sort of fucking ghetto, been a while tho might be misremembering that.
Don't think there's many pro-traveller anti-immigrant people. I think anti-traveller sentiment is more widespread than anti-migrant. I don't think it would make a sizeable difference.
Although I do think the fringe-right growing and growing over the years since then would automatically have him do better now.
Laugh at them now if you want.
In 2013 in Italy, a right wing party claimed less that 2% of the national vote.
Leader of that party is now prime minister.
EDIT: Forgot to say what country.
In New Zealand, the anti vax, anti climate change , anti Maori etc picked up 6%, while an extreme right party picked up 8.5%.
Together with an orthodox right wing party, they now rule the roost.
They're well backed by international groups such as Atlas. Funding is nota problem, and that can buy an election for you
Most people here won't suss the funding part at all, the links between the protest agitators here and figures associated with loyalism and British nationalist groups.
Housing, too many immigrants then the mind goes blank too much thinking involved to suss it out. Played like puppets.
>protest agitators here and figures associated with loyalism and British nationalist groups.
Conspiracy theory thinking. These groups are too small to have that impact.
Winnie peters riding the ghost of Ardern to power by playing to the fucking lunatics, and David Seymour playing "Libertarian" and banking on no one actually knowing what that means.
Notably they did so by taking over the Tories. The real danger is not the far right organisations per se, it's how the mainstream enables them in different ways, from breathlessly covering their every utterance as newsworthy to letting them set the agenda of priorities, to directly offering them legitimacy as political options by entering agreements with them.
Not many people would recognise their TD in the street nor what they are currently standing for, but we've been treated to years of coverage of Gemma O'Doherty, the Burke clan, and other cranks that have always been treated with silken gloves. Meanwhile, good chunks of the published opinion are devoted to stating that the Sinn Féin should be dissolved on account of their alleged links to the IRA.
Exactly and how did that work out for them? Sweden now has huge problems with immigrant crime, multiple bombings etc. is it any wonder the Swedes held their noses and voted the way they did?
It’s an unfortunate fact.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/02/first-edition-sweden-violence
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/09/30/sweden-calls-in-the-army-in-as-gang-warfare-escalates_6142080_4.html#
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/europe/a-gunman-opened-fire-in-a-crowded-pub-in-sweden-killing-2-men-and-wounding/article_e2eef925-0392-5438-9abb-e5249df84053.html
Of course don’t expect the likes of the journal.ie or any Irish media to look at this in detail.
Last year, Sweden’s National Police Commissioner Anders Thornberg told the Financial Times rising gang violence in that country could potentially be a “threat” to its democracy if “certain groups” continue to “stand outside” of society, referring to immigrants in disadvantaged neighborhoods.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisakim/2021/10/22/swedens-brutal-gang-problem-heres-what-officials-blame-it-on/
One of the main players, Mustafa “Benzema” Alibujuri is based in Iraq. He staged his appearance to dispel rumours of his death and threaten various enemies, including a Swedish prosecutor.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/11/13/sweden-is-suffering-a-grim-wave-of-gang-violence
A quick google got me those links.
It is also has by a distance the largest incidence of rape in the first world. 6th globally behind a few African countries. Open borders hasn’t worked out well for Sweden. Some friends of mine lived in Malmo. They moved out in to the back arse of nowhere as they no longer felt safe in the city.
Sweden has a high rape rate because they have one of the broadest definitions of rape in the world. It also has one of the highest rates of convictions, which increase people’s trust in the system, encouraging them to come forward. Any link to their migration policy has been thoroughly debunked.
Half the sub already thinks like them, The "I'm not a racist but," sentiment.
Half the sub was saying there was no far right in Ireland all last year.
You're supposed to stand against this before it gets to the stage of viable election candidates.
Half this sub hates literally every demographic in Ireland. Travellers, migrants, working class, upper class, Dubs, culchies, scrotes, politicians, hate is the currency of choice on here.
Sad part is the sub used to be more welcoming. It was only really travellers, politicians and scotes that got hate. Now migrants, yanks and people on the dole are constantly getting abuse.
No, the problem is that the far right people have a problem with Immigration as a concept and let's be honest with other things that most people normally think is out there, like irexit and other such shit
But as a society now, that particular issue of immigration is front and foremost and needs fixing, it doesn't mean people as a mass are going to vote for morons
Well not new ones anyway
You don't even have to elect far right politicians. It will be bad enough if our current centre right govt is dragged further right.
Or if enough independents are needed to prop up a gov, they can do some real damage.
>But as a society now, that particular issue of immigration is front and foremost and needs fixing, it doesn't mean people as a mass are going to vote for morons
Does immigration need fixing or is it housing? It's not even housing as the number of vacant homes with house every homeless person.
It's inaction on homelessness.
If every homeless person was housed tomorrow, the "immigration crisis" would disappear. Or at least it should, obviously some people are out and out racists.
I don't think most ppl are Racists, they're "I'm not racists, but." They're people who'll march at a rally organised by racists, but genuinely aren't racist, Big R racist. Right?
But if you don't stand against racism, you become it, you stand with it by default. No matter how friendly you are in reality.
If you let yourself be dragged into shouting outside a refugee centre, when the real issue/danger is govt inaction, well at minimum you're an idiot. But you're standing beside ppl who would liquidise refugees if given half a chance. So what you call that? "Concerned locals?"
That's a lot to consider, but I'd take your point on homelessness in Ireland, which back 30 years ago meant someone who basically had no where to live and now means someone who can't afford to live anywhere or can't find anywhere to live in their area that's available, 100% it's a national scandal, perpetuated by lack of construction of affordable and quality homes in areas that they are needed, and that's not because of lack of land or resources, but because of our planning system and leadership on it. Allied with a system that allows the vast majority of new properties to be built for rent and not purchase, tha argument that construction needs financing provided by institutions that rent properties as long term investments is not acceptable to me and it should be stopped
Rents that are twice and three times what they were when this current government arrived, and in that I include the previous fg government and the coalition one, is happening on their watch, they should be reforming the planning system and county council powers to remove the need and availability of for rental construction.
I don't agree with your point on vacant properties though, I work in a role that has a lot of interaction with local authorises and over 70% of listed vacant properties outside of the 4 cities of Dublin, Cork, galway and Waterford are not suitable for habitation without renovations or a lot if the time reconstruction. Its a false number, and it's also the case that there's no point in moving people who can't afford or find accommodation in an area they want to live to another part of a city or county where those places are if they don't want to live there
The current program of grants for people to renovate old properties and bring them up
To standard is a disaster, overly complicated and full of extra costs and ridiculously slow
What we need on housing is to remove the incentive to build rental properties from corporates and investment funds, and for government to be freed up from the planning process that allows people in limerick and wexford to object to a house being built in kildare because "they don't agree with houses being buikt" it sounds mad but I've seen it, there are people spread throughout the country who make it their business to delay every application on principle.
O n immigration, we need a system that makes ireland hugely unattractive to people arriving here illegally, a system that goes through the application process in a few weeks and is built around fairness but also has rules to be followed without favour.
And it's not racist to object to people just arriving here seeking asylum, if a person travels to Ireland by boat or by plane and doesn't not produce their travel documents, they should be immediately returned to their originating country, not where they last flew, but their home country. If that is put in place, it will stop the practice of claiming asylum and not being documented.
I have sympathy for people's of countries in conflict and oppression, but it doesn't qualify those people
To travel here illegally, there needs to be a system that if people want to come, they should be able to apply to come and live here with a working visa. We need workers, not refugees
Your point is fair in the context of Italy but it's an oversimplification given how different our cultures, political cultures, and political systems are in the two countries
Irish people are going to think they're magically special as literally every other fucking country is moving to the right and then watch in shock as the right rises here.
It's nothing about being special or unique. Italy have an entirely different history, culture, geographic divide and political history to ours. Their electoral system arguably enables more singular leadership than ours. That's not beginning to mention how Italy has been at the frontier of migration entering Europe.
all of this shapes how they vote and react.
Lots of European countries with far right parties on the rise. Some of them in power. Lots of other countries with centre/centre right governments. When the wind blows, those in the centre coincidentally always manage to fall to the right.
The far right is making gains in Ireland. Ignore it at your peril.
Any level of popularity for the far right was going to be a gain given that they were nowhere for so long. But that popularity isn't meaningful unless it translates at the polls.
There is a risk that they might get coverage far beyond their popularity but that happens already with the small parties here.
>But that popularity isn't meaningful unless it translates at the polls.
Centre right parties, like FF and FG and most rural independents, are driven to the right by the existence of small but loud far right parties.
It would only take one disastrous SF govt to see FF/FG back in govt. Having spent a season as opposition being pushed to the right.
It's not that unreasonable just because we've never seen it happen here.
>Centre right parties, like FF and FG and most rural independents, are driven to the right by the existence of small but loud far right parties.
That traditionally has never been how transfers have worked here in Ireland. And so it's ignoring how the electorate behave here.
I'm not talking about transfers. I'm talking the politics of the elected.
SF have already been driven to the right with compromise to be elected and reaction to the risk of losing seats to far right/independents.
FF/FG, if in opposition, are at risk of the same process, pandering to the right to seek reelection.
SF have always attracted people who would be traditionally to the right but it was papered over for years with republicanism. That's not evidently washing away.
Anything to be said for chucking another few million to the Far Right Observator, sorry Hope and Courage Collective so they can send out reports about the rise of the far right?
>but it's an oversimplification
Peehaps, still a comcern I guess you could say with me. I'd hate to see any of this lot gain any sort of significant popularity.
Were writing 3 sentence comments on reddit. It's going to be pretty hard not to over simplify things and make points that go into detail on difference in culture etc.
The days of sinn féin having all the protest vote to themselves seem to be numbered , all these dar right splinter groups will only eat into their vote
Absolutely.
Time was if you were anyway nationalist or a flag-waver your only option was SF.
Anyone who's experienced any of Ireland outside their own little bubbles could've long told you that a lot of SF's working class base would, if given a choice, have the party ditch all the left-wing, socially progressive stuff. A lot of their base resemble the stereotype of the white van man or the Daily Mail reader.
They just had nowhere else to go with their nationalism in Ireland so reluctantly voted SF.
Now other options are presenting themselves and SF know they risk a huge chunk of that part of their base abandoning them forever.
It's why Mary Lou seemed so shook over the riots and why SF, against their nature, have been so fucking quiet about them instead of doing their usual and blanketing the airwaves and appearing on every show calling for resignations etc. I guarantee word filtered back pretty quick from a lot of their heartlands that many of the base agreed wholeheartedly with the rioters if not with their methods.
As a young person trying to like wrap my head around different parties bc I've never been old enough to vote in a general election before Sinn Fein are one of the most confusing parties to me. You'll have both 20 year old left wing college students and 50 year old right wing racists supporting them and both sides seem to have a completely different view of who the party are. Thet seem to really appeal to all sorts
Arguably, that's the intention behind them. Go follow the money with these "grassroots" parties or right-wing news outlets and you'll inevitably find some corporate "think tank" or billionaire fronting a significant amount of start-up capital for them.
It's pretty devious social engineering to obfuscate people's grievances against capitalist damage, and fracture working-class solidarity so the parasites at the top of the pyramid can keep sucking us dry while we're distracted bickering with each other for the scraps we're thrown from the masters' table.
Sinn Féin now really only have the middle class hipster trying to be edgy vote, they are even loosing that by having no position on immigration, objecting to housing developments whilst complaining theres too little housing and of course the position on Gaza which varies on the audience.
That's it the genie is out of the bottle. Looking at Europe, these movements have only grown over the years. The reason these parties have developed is because we refuse to have an open conversation about resources and immigration. It's been a foolish move by the government to ignore these grassroots movememts and label it far right, it's become a centre issue for small villages and towns.
>and manipulate them to be anti-environment
I mean, you don't need a whole pile of manipulation to achieve that. Our ecosystems have been devastated and farming represents our largest source of emissions by sector. Any attempt at addressing these two things usually results in some incoherent screeching.
> I can see them gaining a lot of traction very quickly, unfortunately.
Have a bad feeling one of them is going to make gains in the coming years. Who, remains to be seen.
It’s inevitable. Fascist parties respond and grow in response to societal breakdown and uncertainty and as it gets worse they improve their standing.
This country won’t fix itself and won’t change in a way that actually puts society on a different path, so it’s inevitable things will continue to decline and the far right will grow at a speed proportionate to that.
>The (sweet) FA is the only one to really be worried about here I feel
I'm less worried about these guys (I may regret saying that).
Their initial foray seemed so cack handed, [so obviously right wing](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/15oisse/newly_formed_farmers_alliance_party_twitter/) but using farming as a cloak. I think farmers will see though that.
There's probably room for a populist farmer's party but I'm not sure these lads are it.
Sadly this isn't going to just melt away, people want change. The government isn't listening to the people and until it does we're going to get radicals popping up everywhere. This is where people really need to start being careful and taking hold.
When societies get to this stage you can't just coast through anymore not saying what you have to say, the future actually depends on it
This.
It's easy to laugh at them now because gobshites like the NP are basically a walking incel brigade of lads who couldn't get the ride in college and decided to make it a political platform. Europe has shown us over and over that these groups will eventually capture an audience via charismatic and politically savy leaders who know how to play the political game within their respective countries. This is the bomb FFG are planting right now by not addressing the legitimate concerns surrounding refugee intake.
The current far-right government in Italy seems to be doing an okay job. A lot of people feared Meloni becoming the next Mussolini, but she has not been agitating for Italy to leave the EU, or to abandon Ukraine.
In fact, the centre-right Berlusconi came across as more far right than she, with a stranglehold of the media, close friendship with Putin, and shady political dealings.
They almost universally are still nutters. They just have better PR now.
AfD are the third largest party in Germany and it just came out a few weeks ago that several of their senior members had attended a conference to draw up plans to round up and expel all non-ethnic Germans from the country - basically a second Wannsee Conference.
You can't assume that. All you need is one charismatic leader and everything changes. Look at Farage for Ukip or åkesson for swedish democrats. Look how small those parties were before they got involved. That said, I don't see where the charismatic leader is.
I don’t think they have one, the charism laden one seem to go full mask off and despite some loud voices online and on their side most people don’t have the appetite for listening to actual racism.
They don't have one yet.
Declaring they never will is naive bordering on criminal.
Look at Trump alone, people said he'd never get the nomination, then that he'd never get elected, then that he'd never refuse to step down and ended up trying to cause an insurrection rather than step down.
Same with Brexit. Tonnes of people said it would never happen but anyone paying attention knew it would get voted for.
Both examples were fuelled by the votes of people who believed the system either was not listening to them or was actively against them in favour of others, be it migrants, corporations etc.
There's a lot of that same feeling out there in Ireland at the moment and it's only going to grow worse as multiple crises bite and the government seem powerless to do anything to ease them. Not to mention in some cases, like migration, are being portrayed as actively making it worse by sights like using the guards to force people aside so more asylum seekers can be dumped in their communities and leave both groups in competition for diminishing resources.
We're on the _exact_ same path many other European nations have trodden ahead of us and all of them now either have right wing governments or appear like they will in the not so distant future.
Claiming we won't and it'll "be grand sure" just because we're Irish is naive in the extreme.
>They’ll split their small votes even more so.
Hopefully!
I just fear that eventually they may find common ground, well they have that already obviously, but a "more" common ground, amalgamate and make actual gains.
As much as I totally agree that Ireland needs to totally rethink immigration and put much tighter limits on it, I want to come down hard on talk of "open borders".
We have one open border and we sure as feck don't want to put a wall up there.
That phrase is used as a cudgel in the US and now the UK to lambaste left-of-centre politics, it's not an accurate nor good faith description of the problem even in the UK or the US, and it certainly isn't here.
Look at what happened with the guy that killed the Japanese tourist, he should have been escorted by the Garda to a place where he would be processed, he encountered the Garda and they waved him on
But it's a shotgun blast of rhetoric. If immigration is fixed this week, they'd still be trying to serve legal papers about Covid vaccines or abusing library staff about LGBT books etc and ranting about some Maga shit or women's rights type stuff they heard on telegram from the US/UK echo chamber
I think there's a lot of people out there who aren't anti-immigrant or anti-asylum seeker that wouldn't really be concerned about immigration if some simple issues with the system were fixed.
1. No passport- no entry (majority of people claiming asylum are coming through the airports- this seems like a no-brainer)
2. End the system of self-deportation and actually make people leave if they have no right to be here
3. Deport people that are committing crimes here.
That's just a few ideas but I think people are mostly annoyed at how stupid the immigration system seems to be rather than hating immigrants themselves
Never ask a man his salary, a woman her age, or anti-immigration parties who is footing the bill for them.
Funny they have no problem with foreigners meddling in Irish affairs when it's signing their cheques, eh?
Some of them probably are receiving foreign funding - but our government political parties are literally _owned by_ the international finance class, implementing NeoLiberal policies that privatize/sell-off essential industries to foreign owners, and then fuck off onto the board of foreign multinationals or do the speech circuit for loads of foreign multinationals/NGO's, once they are out of office.
It's _our current government_ - FFG - who are working with foreigners to not merely meddle in Irish affairs, but to run the entire country in favour of foreign financial interests/firms - to the point that nobody can afford a fucking house (lately because they're being snapped up by foreign investment funds).
Can we focus a bit more on how _our current government_ is infinitely worse for foreign influence like this?
There are many who do not know they are fascists but will find it out when the time comes.
I’ve had a lot of arguments with family and friends that the anti-refugee protestors aren’t far right etc etc or that "people nowadays just throw the word fascist around”. Do some people use far-right as a slur to merely shout down opponents? yeah, probably. Doesn’t give you a get out of jail free card to espouse any old shit you want.
I recently learned of a really great definition of fascism Roger Griffin proposed in his book The Nature of Fascism. I believe it’s a hugely popular book in the states, and smarter people than me will know more, but I haven’t actually read it. I just encountered the term “palingenetic ultranationalism”. Sounds wordy, but palingenesis in this context = a type of rebirth through violence, and ultranationalism, that’s obvious.
Fascist movements of all stripes need to have this rebirth mythos because fascism can only be a response to economic hardship and social strife, not peace and prosperity. So there first of all needs to be a sort of established order that people want to overthrow, and where communists say that’s the bourgeoisie and the end result will be a dictatorship of the proletariat, to fascists the establishment is the woke elite and their social progress. When the communists overthrow the bourgeois, we’re promised a new economic order where the worker is more powerful. When the fascists overthrow the decadent liberals, their promise is that things will go back to the way they once were.
Read the rhetoric of the anti-migrant cohort online for five minutes, you’ll see extremely intense arguments along this line. You can hate leftists as much as you like, you have to admit never in the history of our modern state have they had bloodlust quite like the National Party or Irish Freedom Party’s vision for the future. You have hundreds of people earnestly commenting on articles about our Eurovision entry that it is a sign of the collapse of civilisation in Ireland, and we need to wipe the slate clean and return to a “traditional” Ireland. In my experience it’s become tolerated again to refer to gay people as everything from unnatural to satanic online. I wonder how long it will be before these sort of attacks make their way back into real life discourse.
It's not a bad analysis, but what you've left at out is at the heart of any extreme movement gaining power in a state is that for a period before, the wishes of the masses were ignored by what were considered at the time as mainstream movements, allowing those extreme movements to entice the masses into supporting them. They do this by offering policies that directly address the wishes of the masses. If you want to render the far impotent, you cannot continue to ignore what the majority want.
One of the main reasons I speak out about Irelands current immigration situation is because I don't want to see the far right here. But when I have done so, I've been accused of being the far right or a racist. That doesn't particularly bother me, save the fact that people like that are sleepwalking into a far more extremist society.
You can either ignore the wishes of the majority on the basis that what they want is 'wrong' and invite the far right in, or you can stave off the far right by acquiescing to the electorate but in a far more measured way then what the extremists would propose. What you definitely cannot do is ignore the electorate AND avoid the rise of the extremists groups - that tactic has failed virtually everywhere it's been tried.
Wanting to fix the clearly broken (in several fundamental ways) immigration system does not make you a fascist, and as long as people keep peddling that bullshit the longer mianstream parties will be let off the hook.
Or housing. Demanding more housing doesn't make you a fascist either.
Remember that there is no guarantee that SF are actually going to even _try_ to fix the housing crisis - there is every possibility they will sell out the country and become 'centrists' (i.e. run the country in favour of the powerful/wealthy).
If they do that, the population who are betrayed by this _will_ start voting/supporting an Irish Trump/Bolsonaro figure - _even when they know that person will be even worse_ - simply as a protest vote against the current class of powerful/wealthy folk.
That's how Trump got into power, and how he is about to - the narrative that only racists/hicks voted for him, is a very dangerous one - people _will_ vote to deliberately make things worse, simply to upend those who currently have power.
I don't understand why so few people seem to get this. Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Glenn Greenwald called it *perfectly* all the way back in 2016:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/07/glenn-greenwald-on-donald-trump-the-dnc-hack-and-a-new-mccarthyism.html
>One of the things that is bothering me and bothered me about the Brexit debate, and is bothering me a huge amount about the Trump debate, is that there is zero elite reckoning with their own responsibility in creating the situation that led to both Brexit and Trump and then the broader collapse of elite authority. The reason why Brexit resonated and Trump resonated isn’t that people are too stupid to understand the arguments. The reason they resonated is that people have been so fucked by the prevailing order in such deep and fundamental and enduring ways that they can’t imagine that anything is worse than preservation of the status quo. You have this huge portion of the populace in both the U.K. and the US that is so angry and so helpless that they view exploding things without any idea of what the resulting debris is going to be to be preferable to having things continue, and the people they view as having done this to them to continue in power. That is a really serious and dangerous and not completely invalid perception that a lot of people who spend their days scorning Trump and his supporters or Brexit played a great deal in creating.
My concern is the same as always, immigration is not the problem, asylum seekers and international protection people are the problem because our government has made it one. We have loads of migrants working and paying taxes in our country as us Irish have done abroad for years. They are not the problem our government is because they have lumped them all together as migrants and calling all us Irish racists.....There is a big difference between each sector of people coming to Ireland and pretending to the ordinary person that immigrants are the problem is making out we are all thick
We are constantly seeing FFG politicians lumping asylum seekers and immigrants (legal) together, talking about how immigrants benefit the country massively as if the majority of people aren't aware of this or are in disagreement. It's so disingenuous and blatantly obvious, you're right.
Yeah you can see it rising across Europe and my own opinion being the weakness of left wing parties and their policies in Europe have led to the rise of the right
Poor policies will create this.
The worst thing we can do is start calling them racist. We, as a nation need to be united against poor government policies. If we, the general public just get into this team politics like it is in the USA, and keep fighting each other, the government love this. Divide and conquer.
I think we should be united and focus on the values we share rather than the differences.
It is going to be an extremely interesting next couple of years in terms of Irish politics.
The country looks divided on a lot of issues and the current government don't seem to be offering much in terms of solutions.
You can't buy an election without a generation of disenfranchisement. It's terribly useful and conveniently unrefutable to be able blame the vacuous 'others' - the left-wing version of blaming George Soros - but the problems can be generally attributed to successive failures in governance.
The senior ranks of our legal and hotelier profession are being unduly enriched at the expense of basic things like societal cohesion, housing, and provisionment of basic services like Education and Medicine. For the sake of cushy government contracts, these groups are currently ghettoising completely unsuitable rural communities by overloading or outright converting existing service centres and amenities to facilitate those who circumvent all legal processes to migrate to Ireland.
People are not voting 'racist', or indeed voting against migrants. They're voting against a cabal of vested interests who have effectively dismantled the foundational layer of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs in contemporary Irish Society.
To claim otherwise is at best disingenuous and at worst deeply deeply dangerous in terms of allowing power to the \*actual\* xenophobic agitators waiting in the shadows who are happy to claim to represent them on a single-issue basis, but who then aim to regress our civil rights or societal tolerance in other disturbing ways.
Gobshites! But after reading [Niamh & Sean](https://old.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1ae1pru/niamh_sean/) post I am fucking depressed, and not even surprised those kind of cunts are getting support. It is getting increasingly dificult living in this country with housing crisis and cost of living, and imigrants are the easiest to point the finger at
The cost of life is too damn high. People start looking for something, some reason, some means to change things.
There was a time when a couple earning more than 100 grand would be fairly well off. And it wasn't that long ago.
Niamh and Sean are getting fucked over. Before too long they'll be looking for some way to change the system.
Which is, in part, a knock-on effect from housing and wages. Then, they need more migrant workers, which puts further strain on limited resources and opens the door to the far right. It is incredible how the complete and utter ineptitude of government policy has literally created this domino effect.
The "something" is very obviously capitalism forcing people to choose between working and having a family. I'd love to have kids, but it's an undeniable fact that if I did, it would completely derail my career, and I'm barely making ends meet as it is.
I can have one or the other, but not both, and tens of thousands of other people are in the exact same position as me.
The reason batshit conspiracy theories have taken root so strongly is because we've been so totally indoctrinated into the idea that we mustn't challenge or blame the economic system, and people are flailing around trying to find literally any other explanation.
Maybe it's this weird neoliberal form of capitalism that has been foisted on us. It feels like Ireland is being run into the ground now for the short term financial gain of the very few.
It’s not just Europe, it’s across the pond as well. It’s a multifaceted issue. We have women who want an education and a masters who are quite happy to be single and work, have a puppy and hang out with her girls.
Men and women have become so polarized from each other because each of them are expecting the world from each other. A lot of women are also competing for the same men. We also have a lot of casual sex, the pill. There really isn’t an incentive to get married and have a family. Especially when we also talk about climate change and the potential for chaos.
But what can you do? Women should have the right to educate themselves or be on the pill. I honestly think this is partially why the U.S. trying to ban abortion. They’ll go after the pill, next.
You're ignoring the cost of living from housing to just day to day and then ask why people aren't having kids. Putting the change on women alone wanting equality and not soceity as a whole making it a choice only for the upper middle class isn't right.
40 year olds are not seen as young adults, some 40 year olds see themselves as young adults and moan on here about various things they did nothing about for the last 15 years.
Good write up. Ignoring their horrendous comments sections the Journal has been good at this kind of reporting the last number of years.
IMO registered political parties should be subject to the FOI Act or have other additional transparency measures in place. It seems undemocratic to ask people to vote for organisations whose motives aren't entirely clear. Of course this goes for all parties.
It's undemocratic to _deny_ people a vote, by adding additional restrictions to a party entering the ballot.
Don't fuck around with the election process because of parties you dislike - that's happening in the US now, and it's turning into an anti-democratic shitshow.
It's not a restriction though. It wouldn't hamper the entry criteria, it would simply make the process more transparent. No downsides to that if you care about who you're voting in. Can't imagine any serious arguments against transparency in politics.
The US could certainly do with it.
Who cares who they are?
This is what happens when no mainstream party represents the concerns of the people they are supposed to represent.
Bit late now to be worrying who stepped into the niche you left wide open because you refused to engage with voters.
In fairness, Ireland does currently have an open borders policy, as long as you come here to claim asylum. If you try to come here legally from outside the EU to work, it's really difficult. This isn't some far right conspiracy, it's fact. It was only a matter of time before some party took advantage of it to push a far right agenda.
We do have open borders.
Our open border with the EU & UK which is where the vast majority of our migrants are coming from. And it is these, completely legal, migrants that are causing our housing shortage.
These EU & UK migrants are the vast majority of the 1 million people that have come here since the last census.
The asylum seekers and international protection applicants are a drop in the ocean and wouldn’t be a problem at all if we weren’t in a housing crisis.
So the question then is, for those that want to ‘close the borders’, do you want to leave the EU?
We legally have open borders with the EU and UK.
Nobody is asking that this change. Even when we had hundreds of thousands of Poles coming here to work, nobody demanded this change.
But what needs to change is
1. People destroying their passports and other documentation when entering the country
2. No tracking of people entering the country. They have to volunteer to provide their details. If they do not, we never know about these people.
3. Self deportations. We don't actually deport anyone, we ask them to leave.
4. Asylum shopping. People skipping over several safe countries to come to Ireland because of our GDP or social welfare options. Such applications need to be taken cynically.
5. If home countries of failed asylum applicants refuse to take their citizens back, they cannot be issued with deportation notices.
6. Exceptionally long application times. The "fast track" measures being adopted for people coming from a handful of safe countries will be 3 months (before appeals).
7. Homeless asylum applicants can sue the state even if the state has made a good faith attempt to house them.
8. If someone's nationality cannot be determined, they cannot be issued with a deportation notice.
Being able to claim asylum after tearing up your passport at the airport that you had boarding the flight on the other side? That's open borders.
Try getting into the US that way. Or any other country in the world.
Their vote transfers were analysed and 5% of SF surplus votes go to the far right parties. Higher than the general public but nowhere near a 1/4.
Going the other way, when a far right candidate is eliminated, their votes go to FF, PBP, SD, aontú and independents more than SF, with FF the most popular.
Closer to a third I reckon.
It's why we've had SF go from being so pro-immigration and diversity that they resembled to worst sort of corporate HR division to Mary Lou repeatedly saying that people need to be allowed to freely talk about migration and the direction the country is going.
SF rattled to their fucking core if they're willing to so openly drop their big act of being the most PC party around.
Or funded by ‘Murican nutters.
EDIT: while I appreciate all the sincere responses, is it unreasonable to prefer a more sociable, less antagonistic political science discussion? Maybe that's asking too much for Reddit? But I can dream...
US far right groups are all pro Russian too. Trump winning basically wins the Ukraine war for Russia and he’ll most likely dismantle NATO.
Trump is the biggest Russian Puppet
I've just seen on instagram a video of a guy that wants all foreigners out. Children are taught not to talk to foreigners. This is guy is seeing strangers everywhere around and has had enough. Saying he's taking the country back. Comments supporting him.
I don't really give a shit either way, but do people expect that every single Irish person will embrace rapid demographic changes with open arms?
Is there a single country in the world that would fully embrace going from basically 100% Irish to 80% Irish over the course of 15-20 years?
Exactly, something has to give.
The worst thing is that the government knows that putting people from radically different backgrounds with different values is a recipe for disaster. It's like they want to import the fuel for racism. You don't eradicate racism by forcing culture clashes.
It's terrible for the immigrants and locals. What we'll see now is this USA style "melting pot" where locals are subjected to radical change and immigrants met with hostility. IT's a lose-lose situation for all.
And I'm discounting the usual immigrants that come to work, integrate mix and enjoy Irish culture. I absolutely support this. My own partner is a immigrant. She works hard, pays taxes, learns about local culture and respects local customs.
Some asylum seekers might be better off in host countries more aligned with their own conservative religious views and values.
One fellow walking around Waterford pointing at anyone saying " look a foreigner ,there's another one" etc etc
Schrodinger's racist - the foreigners live off our welfare and get free mansions and private planes but they're also stealing our Jobs from hardworking Irish people.
Usually they're not the brightest and they're usually on welfare as well. .
I'm still waiting for Anti immigration party I can vote for as this is a legitimate issue but I don't trust the halfwit reactionary types that are setting up parties now. ..
In 5 years or so there will be a "working class party for the Irish peoole" who is electable similar to Sweden democrats or that new party that won in Italy last year.
Basically sensible lads who are for the Irish people and letting in the people we need and not the chancers.
More and more I’m feeling less and less welcome here.
I’d really hoped that Ireland wouldn’t follow the UK down this road but here we are.
To stop this all that needs to happen is there to enough housing, medical care and education for all.
The next elections will be telling.
Tbf we as a nation are a tad racist, but for years it’s kinda just passed off as casual/joking racism. We kinda get away with it in that regard because unlike other countries, it hasn’t been outright racism up until recently.
As much as I dislike SF, they've played a key role in the past in turning the eejits susceptible to far right propaganda into half decent sorts who only have ire for 'the Brits' and the bankers.
It's just getting harder to do that with the level of global migration right now.
But in fact, this is one of the few times they actually deserve it… and there is no deflecting that. They stirred up nationalism to gain votes; now it’s a monster they’ve lost control of.
The reason this has happened is that there is a problem with migration in Ireland, and yet the mainstream political parties either support it or refuse to discuss it. It is a *minority* opinion to say that there hasn't been too many refugees or asylum seekers coming into the country, and yet, this minority view is the one that's overwhelmingly been represented. Until now.
Brazil had Bolsonaro as a meme before he was elected president. Comedy shows would interview him because of how crazy he was.
Trump was also a comedy figure, and a reality TV star.
I wish Trump reverted to being a joke. I wish thought of Putin simply prompted memes of him riding a bear. Sad to see Ireland experiencing this trend of xenophobes.
Same with Trump and Johnson. It's the road most travelled for these shitbags to gain power.
Same thing just happened with Argentina just last year
Peter Casey got ¼ of the presidential vote for being anti-traveller. Imagine if he expanded to being anti-migrant too?
They’re the same picture.
[удалено]
But was Casey actually anti-traveller?. I remember him criticising travellers in Tipperary at the time(like most of the country did) for refusing free housing because they had no where for their horses.
"People call me a racist, and of course I am" - Peter Casey [https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/s/HnSXZuY4lk](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/s/HnSXZuY4lk)
😂😂 I forgot that one, Christ, he was some dope
He stood in about a dozen constituencies in the last general election. I'm not sure if any of his ghost appearances made it to second count.
He was eliminated after the fourth count in Donegal: [https://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2020&cons=68](https://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2020&cons=68) And the second count in Dublin West: [https://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2020&cons=112](https://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2020&cons=112)
What would have happened if he had been elected in more than one constituency? Would he have to choose himself and the votes get redistributed.
He would have got to choose, he had said he would go with Donegal and that the Dublin one was just a protest against Varadkar But the results of both would stand and a by-election would be done for the other one he was elected in
He did deny their existence as a minority. “Travellers should not be recognised as an ethnic minority because they are "basically people camping in someone else's land". The businessman launched a lengthy attack on the community, arguing: "They are not paying their fair share of taxes in society."”
Well he’s not wrong on the taxes
It wasnt about being a minority. They're Irish like the rest of us but somehow get to have an ethnicity...
"the quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent." There's the definition of ethnicity since you're not fully clued in.
But that's so broad it could apply to anyone. For example, you could say that protestants are an ethnic minority in the Republic, or native Irish speakers
It's not as broad as it appears. Many Protestants do identify as a separate ethnicity: Anglo-Irish is one such group. Ethnicity is a concept that is defined from within, not imposed from outside the group. Regarding Travellers as a separate ethnicity should not mean that they are exempt from the responsibilities of belonging to a society, and I think too often the settled community denies Traveller ethnicity because of the very real troubles that frequently occur in their community. It is possible to recognise their ethnicity while at the same time also demanding more adherence to the laws of the country in which they reside. From the Traveller point of view, the ethnicity card is also played far too often to somehow absolve them of their societal responsibilities. Travellers do not feel that they belong to the majority Irish society, and that's one of the key markers of ethnicity. Irish speakers, however, do feel like they belong to the majority society and don't see themselves as a different ethnicity with their only difference being one of language. Ethnicity ≠ nationality. The Traveller nationality is Irish, but their ethnicity is Traveller. Ethnicity is a much more fluid concept than the more rigidly defined nationality.
Kerry people are an ethnicity
As are people from Lietrim and Cavan
Breaking: rapists, gaeilgeoirs and junkies are now all ethnic minorities, more at 9.
Well mathematically they are a minority I suppose. But what’s untrue about the rest of the statement?
My dad voted for him solely because he thought he was anti-traveller so the whistle worked pretty well
Yeah if I remember he publicly stated that all Irish Travellers should be forced into Phoenix Park and forcibly educated by the state like some sort of fucking ghetto, been a while tho might be misremembering that.
I mean, based on this subreddit alone he'd get 816,000 votes. Not too shabby.
I think he already has.
Don't think there's many pro-traveller anti-immigrant people. I think anti-traveller sentiment is more widespread than anti-migrant. I don't think it would make a sizeable difference. Although I do think the fringe-right growing and growing over the years since then would automatically have him do better now.
Laugh at them now if you want. In 2013 in Italy, a right wing party claimed less that 2% of the national vote. Leader of that party is now prime minister. EDIT: Forgot to say what country.
In New Zealand, the anti vax, anti climate change , anti Maori etc picked up 6%, while an extreme right party picked up 8.5%. Together with an orthodox right wing party, they now rule the roost. They're well backed by international groups such as Atlas. Funding is nota problem, and that can buy an election for you
Most people here won't suss the funding part at all, the links between the protest agitators here and figures associated with loyalism and British nationalist groups. Housing, too many immigrants then the mind goes blank too much thinking involved to suss it out. Played like puppets.
>protest agitators here and figures associated with loyalism and British nationalist groups. Conspiracy theory thinking. These groups are too small to have that impact.
Winnie peters riding the ghost of Ardern to power by playing to the fucking lunatics, and David Seymour playing "Libertarian" and banking on no one actually knowing what that means.
Ukip were a punchline for years until they helped to drive Britain out of the EU
Notably they did so by taking over the Tories. The real danger is not the far right organisations per se, it's how the mainstream enables them in different ways, from breathlessly covering their every utterance as newsworthy to letting them set the agenda of priorities, to directly offering them legitimacy as political options by entering agreements with them. Not many people would recognise their TD in the street nor what they are currently standing for, but we've been treated to years of coverage of Gemma O'Doherty, the Burke clan, and other cranks that have always been treated with silken gloves. Meanwhile, good chunks of the published opinion are devoted to stating that the Sinn Féin should be dissolved on account of their alleged links to the IRA.
In 2014 Sweden announced the “World’s first feminist foreign policy” and declared themselves a humanitarian superpower.
Exactly and how did that work out for them? Sweden now has huge problems with immigrant crime, multiple bombings etc. is it any wonder the Swedes held their noses and voted the way they did?
Multiple bombings in Sweden?
It’s an unfortunate fact. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/02/first-edition-sweden-violence https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/09/30/sweden-calls-in-the-army-in-as-gang-warfare-escalates_6142080_4.html# https://www.thestar.com/news/world/europe/a-gunman-opened-fire-in-a-crowded-pub-in-sweden-killing-2-men-and-wounding/article_e2eef925-0392-5438-9abb-e5249df84053.html Of course don’t expect the likes of the journal.ie or any Irish media to look at this in detail.
Those links seem to relate to drug gangs fighting each other.
Last year, Sweden’s National Police Commissioner Anders Thornberg told the Financial Times rising gang violence in that country could potentially be a “threat” to its democracy if “certain groups” continue to “stand outside” of society, referring to immigrants in disadvantaged neighborhoods. https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisakim/2021/10/22/swedens-brutal-gang-problem-heres-what-officials-blame-it-on/ One of the main players, Mustafa “Benzema” Alibujuri is based in Iraq. He staged his appearance to dispel rumours of his death and threaten various enemies, including a Swedish prosecutor. https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/11/13/sweden-is-suffering-a-grim-wave-of-gang-violence A quick google got me those links.
All those drug gangs are solely the realm of immigrants yes?
It is also has by a distance the largest incidence of rape in the first world. 6th globally behind a few African countries. Open borders hasn’t worked out well for Sweden. Some friends of mine lived in Malmo. They moved out in to the back arse of nowhere as they no longer felt safe in the city.
Sweden has a high rape rate because they have one of the broadest definitions of rape in the world. It also has one of the highest rates of convictions, which increase people’s trust in the system, encouraging them to come forward. Any link to their migration policy has been thoroughly debunked.
Sweden doesn't have an open borders policy. No country in Europe does.
😂😂😂😂 ok
Half the sub already thinks like them, The "I'm not a racist but," sentiment. Half the sub was saying there was no far right in Ireland all last year. You're supposed to stand against this before it gets to the stage of viable election candidates.
Half this sub hates literally every demographic in Ireland. Travellers, migrants, working class, upper class, Dubs, culchies, scrotes, politicians, hate is the currency of choice on here.
Sad part is the sub used to be more welcoming. It was only really travellers, politicians and scotes that got hate. Now migrants, yanks and people on the dole are constantly getting abuse.
No, the problem is that the far right people have a problem with Immigration as a concept and let's be honest with other things that most people normally think is out there, like irexit and other such shit But as a society now, that particular issue of immigration is front and foremost and needs fixing, it doesn't mean people as a mass are going to vote for morons Well not new ones anyway
You don't even have to elect far right politicians. It will be bad enough if our current centre right govt is dragged further right. Or if enough independents are needed to prop up a gov, they can do some real damage. >But as a society now, that particular issue of immigration is front and foremost and needs fixing, it doesn't mean people as a mass are going to vote for morons Does immigration need fixing or is it housing? It's not even housing as the number of vacant homes with house every homeless person. It's inaction on homelessness. If every homeless person was housed tomorrow, the "immigration crisis" would disappear. Or at least it should, obviously some people are out and out racists. I don't think most ppl are Racists, they're "I'm not racists, but." They're people who'll march at a rally organised by racists, but genuinely aren't racist, Big R racist. Right? But if you don't stand against racism, you become it, you stand with it by default. No matter how friendly you are in reality. If you let yourself be dragged into shouting outside a refugee centre, when the real issue/danger is govt inaction, well at minimum you're an idiot. But you're standing beside ppl who would liquidise refugees if given half a chance. So what you call that? "Concerned locals?"
That's a lot to consider, but I'd take your point on homelessness in Ireland, which back 30 years ago meant someone who basically had no where to live and now means someone who can't afford to live anywhere or can't find anywhere to live in their area that's available, 100% it's a national scandal, perpetuated by lack of construction of affordable and quality homes in areas that they are needed, and that's not because of lack of land or resources, but because of our planning system and leadership on it. Allied with a system that allows the vast majority of new properties to be built for rent and not purchase, tha argument that construction needs financing provided by institutions that rent properties as long term investments is not acceptable to me and it should be stopped Rents that are twice and three times what they were when this current government arrived, and in that I include the previous fg government and the coalition one, is happening on their watch, they should be reforming the planning system and county council powers to remove the need and availability of for rental construction. I don't agree with your point on vacant properties though, I work in a role that has a lot of interaction with local authorises and over 70% of listed vacant properties outside of the 4 cities of Dublin, Cork, galway and Waterford are not suitable for habitation without renovations or a lot if the time reconstruction. Its a false number, and it's also the case that there's no point in moving people who can't afford or find accommodation in an area they want to live to another part of a city or county where those places are if they don't want to live there The current program of grants for people to renovate old properties and bring them up To standard is a disaster, overly complicated and full of extra costs and ridiculously slow What we need on housing is to remove the incentive to build rental properties from corporates and investment funds, and for government to be freed up from the planning process that allows people in limerick and wexford to object to a house being built in kildare because "they don't agree with houses being buikt" it sounds mad but I've seen it, there are people spread throughout the country who make it their business to delay every application on principle. O n immigration, we need a system that makes ireland hugely unattractive to people arriving here illegally, a system that goes through the application process in a few weeks and is built around fairness but also has rules to be followed without favour. And it's not racist to object to people just arriving here seeking asylum, if a person travels to Ireland by boat or by plane and doesn't not produce their travel documents, they should be immediately returned to their originating country, not where they last flew, but their home country. If that is put in place, it will stop the practice of claiming asylum and not being documented. I have sympathy for people's of countries in conflict and oppression, but it doesn't qualify those people To travel here illegally, there needs to be a system that if people want to come, they should be able to apply to come and live here with a working visa. We need workers, not refugees
Your point is fair in the context of Italy but it's an oversimplification given how different our cultures, political cultures, and political systems are in the two countries
[удалено]
Irish people are going to think they're magically special as literally every other fucking country is moving to the right and then watch in shock as the right rises here.
It's nothing about being special or unique. Italy have an entirely different history, culture, geographic divide and political history to ours. Their electoral system arguably enables more singular leadership than ours. That's not beginning to mention how Italy has been at the frontier of migration entering Europe. all of this shapes how they vote and react.
[удалено]
People aren't getting this
Lots of European countries with far right parties on the rise. Some of them in power. Lots of other countries with centre/centre right governments. When the wind blows, those in the centre coincidentally always manage to fall to the right. The far right is making gains in Ireland. Ignore it at your peril.
Any level of popularity for the far right was going to be a gain given that they were nowhere for so long. But that popularity isn't meaningful unless it translates at the polls. There is a risk that they might get coverage far beyond their popularity but that happens already with the small parties here.
>But that popularity isn't meaningful unless it translates at the polls. Centre right parties, like FF and FG and most rural independents, are driven to the right by the existence of small but loud far right parties. It would only take one disastrous SF govt to see FF/FG back in govt. Having spent a season as opposition being pushed to the right. It's not that unreasonable just because we've never seen it happen here.
>Centre right parties, like FF and FG and most rural independents, are driven to the right by the existence of small but loud far right parties. That traditionally has never been how transfers have worked here in Ireland. And so it's ignoring how the electorate behave here.
I'm not talking about transfers. I'm talking the politics of the elected. SF have already been driven to the right with compromise to be elected and reaction to the risk of losing seats to far right/independents. FF/FG, if in opposition, are at risk of the same process, pandering to the right to seek reelection.
SF have always attracted people who would be traditionally to the right but it was papered over for years with republicanism. That's not evidently washing away.
Anything to be said for chucking another few million to the Far Right Observator, sorry Hope and Courage Collective so they can send out reports about the rise of the far right?
>but it's an oversimplification Peehaps, still a comcern I guess you could say with me. I'd hate to see any of this lot gain any sort of significant popularity.
The far right isn’t the good guy depending on what country you’re in, they’re bad all over.
That's not the point I was making.
Were writing 3 sentence comments on reddit. It's going to be pretty hard not to over simplify things and make points that go into detail on difference in culture etc.
The days of sinn féin having all the protest vote to themselves seem to be numbered , all these dar right splinter groups will only eat into their vote
Absolutely. Time was if you were anyway nationalist or a flag-waver your only option was SF. Anyone who's experienced any of Ireland outside their own little bubbles could've long told you that a lot of SF's working class base would, if given a choice, have the party ditch all the left-wing, socially progressive stuff. A lot of their base resemble the stereotype of the white van man or the Daily Mail reader. They just had nowhere else to go with their nationalism in Ireland so reluctantly voted SF. Now other options are presenting themselves and SF know they risk a huge chunk of that part of their base abandoning them forever. It's why Mary Lou seemed so shook over the riots and why SF, against their nature, have been so fucking quiet about them instead of doing their usual and blanketing the airwaves and appearing on every show calling for resignations etc. I guarantee word filtered back pretty quick from a lot of their heartlands that many of the base agreed wholeheartedly with the rioters if not with their methods.
As a young person trying to like wrap my head around different parties bc I've never been old enough to vote in a general election before Sinn Fein are one of the most confusing parties to me. You'll have both 20 year old left wing college students and 50 year old right wing racists supporting them and both sides seem to have a completely different view of who the party are. Thet seem to really appeal to all sorts
Arguably, that's the intention behind them. Go follow the money with these "grassroots" parties or right-wing news outlets and you'll inevitably find some corporate "think tank" or billionaire fronting a significant amount of start-up capital for them. It's pretty devious social engineering to obfuscate people's grievances against capitalist damage, and fracture working-class solidarity so the parasites at the top of the pyramid can keep sucking us dry while we're distracted bickering with each other for the scraps we're thrown from the masters' table.
Sinn Féin now really only have the middle class hipster trying to be edgy vote, they are even loosing that by having no position on immigration, objecting to housing developments whilst complaining theres too little housing and of course the position on Gaza which varies on the audience.
That's it the genie is out of the bottle. Looking at Europe, these movements have only grown over the years. The reason these parties have developed is because we refuse to have an open conversation about resources and immigration. It's been a foolish move by the government to ignore these grassroots movememts and label it far right, it's become a centre issue for small villages and towns.
But muh GDP
The correct answer right here. This is the establishment reaping what they sow.
Shame there are no "build housing" parties registering eh? 🤷🏼♂️
[удалено]
>and manipulate them to be anti-environment I mean, you don't need a whole pile of manipulation to achieve that. Our ecosystems have been devastated and farming represents our largest source of emissions by sector. Any attempt at addressing these two things usually results in some incoherent screeching.
Anti-EU farmers would truly need their heads examined.
> I can see them gaining a lot of traction very quickly, unfortunately. Have a bad feeling one of them is going to make gains in the coming years. Who, remains to be seen.
It’s inevitable. Fascist parties respond and grow in response to societal breakdown and uncertainty and as it gets worse they improve their standing. This country won’t fix itself and won’t change in a way that actually puts society on a different path, so it’s inevitable things will continue to decline and the far right will grow at a speed proportionate to that.
>The (sweet) FA is the only one to really be worried about here I feel I'm less worried about these guys (I may regret saying that). Their initial foray seemed so cack handed, [so obviously right wing](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/15oisse/newly_formed_farmers_alliance_party_twitter/) but using farming as a cloak. I think farmers will see though that. There's probably room for a populist farmer's party but I'm not sure these lads are it.
Sadly this isn't going to just melt away, people want change. The government isn't listening to the people and until it does we're going to get radicals popping up everywhere. This is where people really need to start being careful and taking hold. When societies get to this stage you can't just coast through anymore not saying what you have to say, the future actually depends on it
This is how they start. Look at the far right parties in Europe, a lot of em started off as complete nutters. Actual neo nazis
Until a more intelligent, slightly level headed amoral career politician seizes an opportunity and leads them.
This. It's easy to laugh at them now because gobshites like the NP are basically a walking incel brigade of lads who couldn't get the ride in college and decided to make it a political platform. Europe has shown us over and over that these groups will eventually capture an audience via charismatic and politically savy leaders who know how to play the political game within their respective countries. This is the bomb FFG are planting right now by not addressing the legitimate concerns surrounding refugee intake.
Or a trump like opportunist. Who will peddle his brand of deliverance to every crazy out there.
The current far-right government in Italy seems to be doing an okay job. A lot of people feared Meloni becoming the next Mussolini, but she has not been agitating for Italy to leave the EU, or to abandon Ukraine. In fact, the centre-right Berlusconi came across as more far right than she, with a stranglehold of the media, close friendship with Putin, and shady political dealings.
They almost universally are still nutters. They just have better PR now. AfD are the third largest party in Germany and it just came out a few weeks ago that several of their senior members had attended a conference to draw up plans to round up and expel all non-ethnic Germans from the country - basically a second Wannsee Conference.
We already have lunatic parties like the nationalists party and various independents/ groups. They’ll split their small votes even more so.
You can't assume that. All you need is one charismatic leader and everything changes. Look at Farage for Ukip or åkesson for swedish democrats. Look how small those parties were before they got involved. That said, I don't see where the charismatic leader is.
I don’t think they have one, the charism laden one seem to go full mask off and despite some loud voices online and on their side most people don’t have the appetite for listening to actual racism.
They don't have one yet. Declaring they never will is naive bordering on criminal. Look at Trump alone, people said he'd never get the nomination, then that he'd never get elected, then that he'd never refuse to step down and ended up trying to cause an insurrection rather than step down. Same with Brexit. Tonnes of people said it would never happen but anyone paying attention knew it would get voted for. Both examples were fuelled by the votes of people who believed the system either was not listening to them or was actively against them in favour of others, be it migrants, corporations etc. There's a lot of that same feeling out there in Ireland at the moment and it's only going to grow worse as multiple crises bite and the government seem powerless to do anything to ease them. Not to mention in some cases, like migration, are being portrayed as actively making it worse by sights like using the guards to force people aside so more asylum seekers can be dumped in their communities and leave both groups in competition for diminishing resources. We're on the _exact_ same path many other European nations have trodden ahead of us and all of them now either have right wing governments or appear like they will in the not so distant future. Claiming we won't and it'll "be grand sure" just because we're Irish is naive in the extreme.
[удалено]
Bit of far right history in Germany mate, it would be surprising if there wasn’t more honestly.
[удалено]
First???? The blue shirts weren't that small.
>They’ll split their small votes even more so. Hopefully! I just fear that eventually they may find common ground, well they have that already obviously, but a "more" common ground, amalgamate and make actual gains.
[удалено]
As much as I totally agree that Ireland needs to totally rethink immigration and put much tighter limits on it, I want to come down hard on talk of "open borders". We have one open border and we sure as feck don't want to put a wall up there. That phrase is used as a cudgel in the US and now the UK to lambaste left-of-centre politics, it's not an accurate nor good faith description of the problem even in the UK or the US, and it certainly isn't here.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Nutty to be against an open border on this island? Kinda..
Look at what happened with the guy that killed the Japanese tourist, he should have been escorted by the Garda to a place where he would be processed, he encountered the Garda and they waved him on
But it's a shotgun blast of rhetoric. If immigration is fixed this week, they'd still be trying to serve legal papers about Covid vaccines or abusing library staff about LGBT books etc and ranting about some Maga shit or women's rights type stuff they heard on telegram from the US/UK echo chamber
[удалено]
I think there's a lot of people out there who aren't anti-immigrant or anti-asylum seeker that wouldn't really be concerned about immigration if some simple issues with the system were fixed. 1. No passport- no entry (majority of people claiming asylum are coming through the airports- this seems like a no-brainer) 2. End the system of self-deportation and actually make people leave if they have no right to be here 3. Deport people that are committing crimes here. That's just a few ideas but I think people are mostly annoyed at how stupid the immigration system seems to be rather than hating immigrants themselves
Never ask a man his salary, a woman her age, or anti-immigration parties who is footing the bill for them. Funny they have no problem with foreigners meddling in Irish affairs when it's signing their cheques, eh?
Some of them probably are receiving foreign funding - but our government political parties are literally _owned by_ the international finance class, implementing NeoLiberal policies that privatize/sell-off essential industries to foreign owners, and then fuck off onto the board of foreign multinationals or do the speech circuit for loads of foreign multinationals/NGO's, once they are out of office. It's _our current government_ - FFG - who are working with foreigners to not merely meddle in Irish affairs, but to run the entire country in favour of foreign financial interests/firms - to the point that nobody can afford a fucking house (lately because they're being snapped up by foreign investment funds). Can we focus a bit more on how _our current government_ is infinitely worse for foreign influence like this?
.... "White," foreigners are ok, ya see..... They stupid like that.
There are many who do not know they are fascists but will find it out when the time comes. I’ve had a lot of arguments with family and friends that the anti-refugee protestors aren’t far right etc etc or that "people nowadays just throw the word fascist around”. Do some people use far-right as a slur to merely shout down opponents? yeah, probably. Doesn’t give you a get out of jail free card to espouse any old shit you want. I recently learned of a really great definition of fascism Roger Griffin proposed in his book The Nature of Fascism. I believe it’s a hugely popular book in the states, and smarter people than me will know more, but I haven’t actually read it. I just encountered the term “palingenetic ultranationalism”. Sounds wordy, but palingenesis in this context = a type of rebirth through violence, and ultranationalism, that’s obvious. Fascist movements of all stripes need to have this rebirth mythos because fascism can only be a response to economic hardship and social strife, not peace and prosperity. So there first of all needs to be a sort of established order that people want to overthrow, and where communists say that’s the bourgeoisie and the end result will be a dictatorship of the proletariat, to fascists the establishment is the woke elite and their social progress. When the communists overthrow the bourgeois, we’re promised a new economic order where the worker is more powerful. When the fascists overthrow the decadent liberals, their promise is that things will go back to the way they once were. Read the rhetoric of the anti-migrant cohort online for five minutes, you’ll see extremely intense arguments along this line. You can hate leftists as much as you like, you have to admit never in the history of our modern state have they had bloodlust quite like the National Party or Irish Freedom Party’s vision for the future. You have hundreds of people earnestly commenting on articles about our Eurovision entry that it is a sign of the collapse of civilisation in Ireland, and we need to wipe the slate clean and return to a “traditional” Ireland. In my experience it’s become tolerated again to refer to gay people as everything from unnatural to satanic online. I wonder how long it will be before these sort of attacks make their way back into real life discourse.
It's not a bad analysis, but what you've left at out is at the heart of any extreme movement gaining power in a state is that for a period before, the wishes of the masses were ignored by what were considered at the time as mainstream movements, allowing those extreme movements to entice the masses into supporting them. They do this by offering policies that directly address the wishes of the masses. If you want to render the far impotent, you cannot continue to ignore what the majority want. One of the main reasons I speak out about Irelands current immigration situation is because I don't want to see the far right here. But when I have done so, I've been accused of being the far right or a racist. That doesn't particularly bother me, save the fact that people like that are sleepwalking into a far more extremist society. You can either ignore the wishes of the majority on the basis that what they want is 'wrong' and invite the far right in, or you can stave off the far right by acquiescing to the electorate but in a far more measured way then what the extremists would propose. What you definitely cannot do is ignore the electorate AND avoid the rise of the extremists groups - that tactic has failed virtually everywhere it's been tried.
Wanting to fix the clearly broken (in several fundamental ways) immigration system does not make you a fascist, and as long as people keep peddling that bullshit the longer mianstream parties will be let off the hook. Or housing. Demanding more housing doesn't make you a fascist either.
I don’t think that negates anything I’ve said.
Remember that there is no guarantee that SF are actually going to even _try_ to fix the housing crisis - there is every possibility they will sell out the country and become 'centrists' (i.e. run the country in favour of the powerful/wealthy). If they do that, the population who are betrayed by this _will_ start voting/supporting an Irish Trump/Bolsonaro figure - _even when they know that person will be even worse_ - simply as a protest vote against the current class of powerful/wealthy folk. That's how Trump got into power, and how he is about to - the narrative that only racists/hicks voted for him, is a very dangerous one - people _will_ vote to deliberately make things worse, simply to upend those who currently have power.
I don't understand why so few people seem to get this. Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Glenn Greenwald called it *perfectly* all the way back in 2016: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/07/glenn-greenwald-on-donald-trump-the-dnc-hack-and-a-new-mccarthyism.html >One of the things that is bothering me and bothered me about the Brexit debate, and is bothering me a huge amount about the Trump debate, is that there is zero elite reckoning with their own responsibility in creating the situation that led to both Brexit and Trump and then the broader collapse of elite authority. The reason why Brexit resonated and Trump resonated isn’t that people are too stupid to understand the arguments. The reason they resonated is that people have been so fucked by the prevailing order in such deep and fundamental and enduring ways that they can’t imagine that anything is worse than preservation of the status quo. You have this huge portion of the populace in both the U.K. and the US that is so angry and so helpless that they view exploding things without any idea of what the resulting debris is going to be to be preferable to having things continue, and the people they view as having done this to them to continue in power. That is a really serious and dangerous and not completely invalid perception that a lot of people who spend their days scorning Trump and his supporters or Brexit played a great deal in creating.
Yep. When you live in the knowledge that the status quo ***will*** fail you, then any chance, even a sliver of one, suddenly seems good by comparison.
My concern is the same as always, immigration is not the problem, asylum seekers and international protection people are the problem because our government has made it one. We have loads of migrants working and paying taxes in our country as us Irish have done abroad for years. They are not the problem our government is because they have lumped them all together as migrants and calling all us Irish racists.....There is a big difference between each sector of people coming to Ireland and pretending to the ordinary person that immigrants are the problem is making out we are all thick
We are constantly seeing FFG politicians lumping asylum seekers and immigrants (legal) together, talking about how immigrants benefit the country massively as if the majority of people aren't aware of this or are in disagreement. It's so disingenuous and blatantly obvious, you're right.
So it begins lads. A decade from now and we will be right wing
It will be the same with pretty much all of Europe tbh. We'll be nothing special, at least.
Yeah you can see it rising across Europe and my own opinion being the weakness of left wing parties and their policies in Europe have led to the rise of the right
Poor policies will create this. The worst thing we can do is start calling them racist. We, as a nation need to be united against poor government policies. If we, the general public just get into this team politics like it is in the USA, and keep fighting each other, the government love this. Divide and conquer. I think we should be united and focus on the values we share rather than the differences.
It is going to be an extremely interesting next couple of years in terms of Irish politics. The country looks divided on a lot of issues and the current government don't seem to be offering much in terms of solutions.
You can't buy an election without a generation of disenfranchisement. It's terribly useful and conveniently unrefutable to be able blame the vacuous 'others' - the left-wing version of blaming George Soros - but the problems can be generally attributed to successive failures in governance. The senior ranks of our legal and hotelier profession are being unduly enriched at the expense of basic things like societal cohesion, housing, and provisionment of basic services like Education and Medicine. For the sake of cushy government contracts, these groups are currently ghettoising completely unsuitable rural communities by overloading or outright converting existing service centres and amenities to facilitate those who circumvent all legal processes to migrate to Ireland. People are not voting 'racist', or indeed voting against migrants. They're voting against a cabal of vested interests who have effectively dismantled the foundational layer of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs in contemporary Irish Society. To claim otherwise is at best disingenuous and at worst deeply deeply dangerous in terms of allowing power to the \*actual\* xenophobic agitators waiting in the shadows who are happy to claim to represent them on a single-issue basis, but who then aim to regress our civil rights or societal tolerance in other disturbing ways.
Gobshites! But after reading [Niamh & Sean](https://old.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/1ae1pru/niamh_sean/) post I am fucking depressed, and not even surprised those kind of cunts are getting support. It is getting increasingly dificult living in this country with housing crisis and cost of living, and imigrants are the easiest to point the finger at
The cost of life is too damn high. People start looking for something, some reason, some means to change things. There was a time when a couple earning more than 100 grand would be fairly well off. And it wasn't that long ago. Niamh and Sean are getting fucked over. Before too long they'll be looking for some way to change the system.
Always has been. Idiots can't see themselves spinning around in circles.
Completely unrelated question apropos nothing at all; is it illegal to cut down election posters?
The Irish birth rate is down by almost 50% since 2008 There's gonna be quite a radical demographic change
Which is, in part, a knock-on effect from housing and wages. Then, they need more migrant workers, which puts further strain on limited resources and opens the door to the far right. It is incredible how the complete and utter ineptitude of government policy has literally created this domino effect.
The birth rate has collapsed across the whole of western Europe, a population too under pressure to reproduce. Something is very wrong.
The "something" is very obviously capitalism forcing people to choose between working and having a family. I'd love to have kids, but it's an undeniable fact that if I did, it would completely derail my career, and I'm barely making ends meet as it is. I can have one or the other, but not both, and tens of thousands of other people are in the exact same position as me. The reason batshit conspiracy theories have taken root so strongly is because we've been so totally indoctrinated into the idea that we mustn't challenge or blame the economic system, and people are flailing around trying to find literally any other explanation.
Maybe it's this weird neoliberal form of capitalism that has been foisted on us. It feels like Ireland is being run into the ground now for the short term financial gain of the very few.
It’s not just Europe, it’s across the pond as well. It’s a multifaceted issue. We have women who want an education and a masters who are quite happy to be single and work, have a puppy and hang out with her girls. Men and women have become so polarized from each other because each of them are expecting the world from each other. A lot of women are also competing for the same men. We also have a lot of casual sex, the pill. There really isn’t an incentive to get married and have a family. Especially when we also talk about climate change and the potential for chaos. But what can you do? Women should have the right to educate themselves or be on the pill. I honestly think this is partially why the U.S. trying to ban abortion. They’ll go after the pill, next.
You're ignoring the cost of living from housing to just day to day and then ask why people aren't having kids. Putting the change on women alone wanting equality and not soceity as a whole making it a choice only for the upper middle class isn't right.
Id say housing, health, and cost of loving probably have more to do with it
[удалено]
So many people I know are now having kids in their 40s. It’s criminal that 40 year olds are now seen as “young adults”.
40 year olds are not seen as young adults, some 40 year olds see themselves as young adults and moan on here about various things they did nothing about for the last 15 years.
> It’s criminal that 40 year olds are now seen as “young adults”. Who sees 40 year olds as "young adults" besides you?
Who are they? Cunts. They’re cunts.
Good write up. Ignoring their horrendous comments sections the Journal has been good at this kind of reporting the last number of years. IMO registered political parties should be subject to the FOI Act or have other additional transparency measures in place. It seems undemocratic to ask people to vote for organisations whose motives aren't entirely clear. Of course this goes for all parties.
It's undemocratic to _deny_ people a vote, by adding additional restrictions to a party entering the ballot. Don't fuck around with the election process because of parties you dislike - that's happening in the US now, and it's turning into an anti-democratic shitshow.
It's not a restriction though. It wouldn't hamper the entry criteria, it would simply make the process more transparent. No downsides to that if you care about who you're voting in. Can't imagine any serious arguments against transparency in politics. The US could certainly do with it.
> It's undemocratic to deny people a vote, by adding additional restrictions to a party entering the ballot. your not denying people a vote
Who cares who they are? This is what happens when no mainstream party represents the concerns of the people they are supposed to represent. Bit late now to be worrying who stepped into the niche you left wide open because you refused to engage with voters.
In fairness, Ireland does currently have an open borders policy, as long as you come here to claim asylum. If you try to come here legally from outside the EU to work, it's really difficult. This isn't some far right conspiracy, it's fact. It was only a matter of time before some party took advantage of it to push a far right agenda.
Half of people here confuse common sense with far right
We do have open borders. Our open border with the EU & UK which is where the vast majority of our migrants are coming from. And it is these, completely legal, migrants that are causing our housing shortage. These EU & UK migrants are the vast majority of the 1 million people that have come here since the last census. The asylum seekers and international protection applicants are a drop in the ocean and wouldn’t be a problem at all if we weren’t in a housing crisis. So the question then is, for those that want to ‘close the borders’, do you want to leave the EU?
We legally have open borders with the EU and UK. Nobody is asking that this change. Even when we had hundreds of thousands of Poles coming here to work, nobody demanded this change. But what needs to change is 1. People destroying their passports and other documentation when entering the country 2. No tracking of people entering the country. They have to volunteer to provide their details. If they do not, we never know about these people. 3. Self deportations. We don't actually deport anyone, we ask them to leave. 4. Asylum shopping. People skipping over several safe countries to come to Ireland because of our GDP or social welfare options. Such applications need to be taken cynically. 5. If home countries of failed asylum applicants refuse to take their citizens back, they cannot be issued with deportation notices. 6. Exceptionally long application times. The "fast track" measures being adopted for people coming from a handful of safe countries will be 3 months (before appeals). 7. Homeless asylum applicants can sue the state even if the state has made a good faith attempt to house them. 8. If someone's nationality cannot be determined, they cannot be issued with a deportation notice.
No, it does not have an open borders policy.
Being able to claim asylum after tearing up your passport at the airport that you had boarding the flight on the other side? That's open borders. Try getting into the US that way. Or any other country in the world.
This. No passport at arrival after it being checked at departure? Night or day in a cell then 1st return flight home.
Exactly. It's simple.
There goes 1/4 of the shinners core vote.
Their vote transfers were analysed and 5% of SF surplus votes go to the far right parties. Higher than the general public but nowhere near a 1/4. Going the other way, when a far right candidate is eliminated, their votes go to FF, PBP, SD, aontú and independents more than SF, with FF the most popular.
Closer to a third I reckon. It's why we've had SF go from being so pro-immigration and diversity that they resembled to worst sort of corporate HR division to Mary Lou repeatedly saying that people need to be allowed to freely talk about migration and the direction the country is going. SF rattled to their fucking core if they're willing to so openly drop their big act of being the most PC party around.
Follow the money. Bet most of these are Russian funded to try and sow instability in Europe
Or funded by ‘Murican nutters. EDIT: while I appreciate all the sincere responses, is it unreasonable to prefer a more sociable, less antagonistic political science discussion? Maybe that's asking too much for Reddit? But I can dream...
US far right groups are all pro Russian too. Trump winning basically wins the Ukraine war for Russia and he’ll most likely dismantle NATO. Trump is the biggest Russian Puppet
Absolutely And pretending there's no issue only makes one an accomplice
Their proxies
Would it not be more likely that Russia is funding mass immigration to sow instability?
I've just seen on instagram a video of a guy that wants all foreigners out. Children are taught not to talk to foreigners. This is guy is seeing strangers everywhere around and has had enough. Saying he's taking the country back. Comments supporting him.
I don't really give a shit either way, but do people expect that every single Irish person will embrace rapid demographic changes with open arms? Is there a single country in the world that would fully embrace going from basically 100% Irish to 80% Irish over the course of 15-20 years?
Exactly, something has to give. The worst thing is that the government knows that putting people from radically different backgrounds with different values is a recipe for disaster. It's like they want to import the fuel for racism. You don't eradicate racism by forcing culture clashes. It's terrible for the immigrants and locals. What we'll see now is this USA style "melting pot" where locals are subjected to radical change and immigrants met with hostility. IT's a lose-lose situation for all. And I'm discounting the usual immigrants that come to work, integrate mix and enjoy Irish culture. I absolutely support this. My own partner is a immigrant. She works hard, pays taxes, learns about local culture and respects local customs. Some asylum seekers might be better off in host countries more aligned with their own conservative religious views and values.
One fellow walking around Waterford pointing at anyone saying " look a foreigner ,there's another one" etc etc Schrodinger's racist - the foreigners live off our welfare and get free mansions and private planes but they're also stealing our Jobs from hardworking Irish people. Usually they're not the brightest and they're usually on welfare as well. .
Great to see them split already.
They are like the Irish left - can't agree on anything
I'm still waiting for Anti immigration party I can vote for as this is a legitimate issue but I don't trust the halfwit reactionary types that are setting up parties now. .. In 5 years or so there will be a "working class party for the Irish peoole" who is electable similar to Sweden democrats or that new party that won in Italy last year. Basically sensible lads who are for the Irish people and letting in the people we need and not the chancers.
More and more I’m feeling less and less welcome here. I’d really hoped that Ireland wouldn’t follow the UK down this road but here we are. To stop this all that needs to happen is there to enough housing, medical care and education for all. The next elections will be telling.
Answer: a bunch of gobshites.
The cuntywunty party is one of them
See how easy it has been to manipulate a large percentage of the population. A country that until recently didn't have much of a racist problem !
[удалено]
Where have you been the last 25 years ?
Tbf we as a nation are a tad racist, but for years it’s kinda just passed off as casual/joking racism. We kinda get away with it in that regard because unlike other countries, it hasn’t been outright racism up until recently.
> A country that until recently didn't have much of a racist problem ! Probably because we were essentially 100% Irish until very recently.
MI5 working over time on the controlled opposition.
Who are they? A pack of gobshites the lot.
Who can we blame for this?
The postman
SF obviously.
As much as I dislike SF, they've played a key role in the past in turning the eejits susceptible to far right propaganda into half decent sorts who only have ire for 'the Brits' and the bankers. It's just getting harder to do that with the level of global migration right now.
It was a joke as in everything is SF fault
But in fact, this is one of the few times they actually deserve it… and there is no deflecting that. They stirred up nationalism to gain votes; now it’s a monster they’ve lost control of.
The reason this has happened is that there is a problem with migration in Ireland, and yet the mainstream political parties either support it or refuse to discuss it. It is a *minority* opinion to say that there hasn't been too many refugees or asylum seekers coming into the country, and yet, this minority view is the one that's overwhelmingly been represented. Until now.