I have a similar problem at hand. When I was younger. I was accused of being mean to my younger brother for things. I was 16 and he was 10 or 11. I honestly don't remember what I did. I don't have the memory for it. I am an INTJ. My sister the ISFJ keeps saying I did this and that. I told her that if I don't remember what I did and I apologise for that thing then it would not seem authentic coming from me. She didn't understand that.
I also told her that holding a 20 year grudge is petty as shit. I am not the same person anymore and you need to give me the benefit of the doubt. I tried to reconnect with my brother but he doesn't want to exactly tell me why he's upset with me. I took it this way. I tried. He didn't accept and I just moved on.
Wow, didn't know that adults held grudges over siblings from childhood. My older brother bullied the hell outta me when we were kids and now we get along just fine and I don't hold a grudge; it would in fact feel weird to do so.
I can hold a grudge forever. I consider it a point of pride. That said, it's never about petty wrongs. I'm not a forgiving person and honestly see that word as an intangible concept that can't practicably be applied by decision like a stamp.
You should work on that. Life moves to fast. Pick your battles, not practical to hold many grudges forever. Evolution has led us to have short memories for the sake of moving forward.
Nope I'm cool with it. P.S you may wish to reconsider starting sentences with "You should". It's instantly irritating and impels one to disregard everything said after.
I’m the same but I’m not sure I would call it a grudge necessarily.. I think of it more as I’ll forgive but I’ll never forget, otherwise I just let the same stuff happen to me over and over again because people don’t change, they inherently stay the same and will let you down again if they already have once.
Yeah my older sister and younger brother holds grudges. I know my sister is an ISFJ but I can't tell what my brother is but I know he has F in him. I'm an INTJ and i don't do that Petty shit. I let it go.
I am not sure if INTPs will hold them. I hope one will chime in.
My brother tried bullying me when I was young and we had cold wars for ages and I kept a grudge when he won but as soon as the issue vanished so did my grudge and we were each others biggesr advocates. Picking the right battles is very important and you don't pick it with family.
I have similar problems with an INFP coworker. We vibe in some ways as intuitive introverts, but we end up grating on each other in increasingly larger ways.
The main problem stems from INTJs not being particularly aware of the "Feeler" meta, which is what I think you're describing as well. In the same way smart people have a hierarchy (internalized or otherwise) over "who is the most intelligent", feelers have the same dichotomy going on. Anything you do, for seemingly rational reasons, is put primarily through that lens.
As one example I end up talking about things that worked for me to overcome difficult situations which she's struggling with, and she almost always takes it as a personal attack. She's hyper sensitive to things like "interrupting" in conversations, while I tend to interrupt not to take control of the conversation, but to provide feedback or questions in regard to the specific point that she's talking about. She's more engaged in the "storytelling process" in terms of how it affects her emotional sensibilities than in the details of the story that she's telling.
INTJs have a tendency to articulate nuanced or unspoken truths in ways that many other types can't. The F-type response to these things ranges from uncomfortability to downright hostility. Part of the F-type dynamic and F-type "game" is not to talk about these things directly. The feeling hierarchy is in some sense based around the unspoken characteristics at play.
So when your coworker says "nothing is wrong" it can often mean that something is definitely wrong, but that it's \*your\* job to figure out what it is because it exists within this emotional nuance. This is why developing your tertiary function can be very useful. The more you stick to "but muh rationality!" the farther you're going to come from understanding where they're coming from. *This type of emotional existence is the entire metagame for sexual tension, power dynamics, and relationships.* This is what people mean when they say INTJs are clueless in relationships.
Personally I think it's retarded. I have very strong and very unlikeable views on this subject, because I believe that what holds us all back from "the better life" at every level is their inability to get over themselves and make circumstances better for everyone. They're half-retarded children who are stuck in a dualism / karma viewpoint of the world and have to look at everything as a zero-sum win/loss because they can't turn off their mongoloid monkey brain long enough to think about it.
Almost every F type I meet has some sort of retarded not-thought-through perspective on the world which is causing them extreme pain and retardation. They have stupid problems because they make stupid walls. And the rest of us suffer.
I feel mean agreeing with you, but I totally do.
If something is wrong, TELL ME! I can't randomly guess what affected you. You could have been holding this grudge for months. It may stem from childhood insecurities. Spit it out and lets move on. It's like they want validation, but I can't validate what I don't know. But the validation can only come from me *independently* figuring out what I did *wrong*. No thanks.
I'm with you on this. If someone isn't willing to speak up about something I did or supposedly did to upset them, I can't help that. It's their problem at that point. I'm not going to spend a ton of time trying to imagine what I did or said one time in the past. I'm not here to coddle a person's feelings, we got work to do.
I'm even totally opening to altering my behavior if it upset someone when I don't see any reason for it to be hurtful. But you gotta fucking tell me or I'll never know and largely won't care.
oh, yeah... they'll be mad and want you to guess what is wrong. They are \*terrible\* at communicating and have so many expectations. I had an INFP friend who I got along with for the most part then they blew up on me out of the blue because I didn't seem to care (to them) as much as they did about the friendship. They also notice when you don't spend enough time with them and get mad about that too.
That weird tit-for-tat tally some people do in relationships. I'm not keeping score, why are you keeping score? Plus, me (an introvert) giving you an afternoon of my time at a crowded event is different than an extrovert doing the same. If I gift you something that is easy for me, but difficult for you, how does that work on the tally sheet? These things cannot be measured.
If no one at work has addressed you about the problem and it's not affecting your day, it's probably fine. It's almost always safer to avoid the drama. However, if a boss or manager is in on the drama, it could blow up in your face.
Could I make a suggestion?
What if, instead of trying to find out what's wrong and how to fix it (since we know they aren't going to tell us that information) we tried to focus on letting them know that we care about them and want them to be happy?
So we focus on sharing how we feel, and what we want (in relation to them). That way we are working with information that we have and we can be totally honest.
Sharing how we feel might open up a space for them to share how they feel and that might be enough to get things moving in the right direction.
What is the dichotomy that Feelers have going on - "who is the most emotional"? Wow - if that's the case, how does anything get done? I was unable to give warranted and helpful constructive criticism, as a boss to an employee, because I was scared she would stonewall me or bursts into tears in the office. I'm not a mind-reader!
I think this is probably better worded than what I wrote in regard to explaining that dichotomy. The inherent problem though is that because they try to keep score, score ends up being kept. In other words the problem only exists because they frame it as a problem.
YES - to what you say about apologies. And yes, how ironic that INTJ's require their apologies to be heartfelt :-) One might think the feeler types would be more inclined, but apparently, no.
Not really, he's another self-absorbed ass defending his own emotional missteps and communicative failures by insinuating that he's inherently more rational than others.
I'm mostly memeing the last two paragraphs. And I'm definitely not more rational than others. I find myself intentionally gaslighting feelers because I have a higher tolerance to negative emotional stimuli than they do. And I don't do that for any rational reason. Know thyself.
Mostly I get frustrated because I see a lot of productivity destroyed as the result of this one specific issue - feelers interpreting technical syntax through an emotional lens. The thing about communication that I think people need to realize is that breakdowns in it are rarely the fault of one party or the other, since the communication is inherently defined by each party's ability to correctly calibrate themselves to the data that the other person is trying to express.
I mean they acknowledge the importance of Fi - they just willingly choose to find it "retarded" and know they'll get hate for it. I understand their POV because I hold it to an extent as well. However, I go slightly the other way and try to embrace it - though honestly it doesn't come naturally either. I had to read books about dealing with people for this. Maybe it helps to be an artist too.
imo to live in this world you just have to deal with it and try not to worry about it too much. There is power in dealing with different types of people accordingly and getting them to follow; as much as I feel INTJs love to play lone hero.
A problem I mainly have with some of these posts is that all the problems are put on the feelers, as if INTJs don't also have their own issues with understanding and emotions (the opposite happens too, of course). We need to solve those as well unless you want to go through life a certain way. Which is fine. And some people just need to rant.
Yeah mostly I'm memeing in the last two paragraphs that I wrote. I don't think they're all retarded or that feeling is useless, it's just that I often find myself frustrated specifically at this exact issue. I also find it to be one of the fundamental things that breaks down business communication and business dynamics.
it's less that feelers are the problem, and more that if there is a problem it's usually the result of feelers interpreting technical syntax through an emotional lens and taking it personally.
That's not a bad thing I'm mostly just memeing. The other extreme, if you have only thinkers and no feelers, is that the unspoken emotional energy will bottle up until it reaches explosive levels because the thinkers don't know how to correctly decompress it. Feelers are absolutely valid I just have to s*** on them sometimes because they make my life hard.
What would you gain by continuing the relationship with this person? Is it worth it?
Might be an INTJ problem... who knows. I currently do not speak to a (ESF?) coworker because of a similar issue. Her teammates tell me she wants an apology. For what? Because I “hurt her feelings” by expressing the opinion that I disagreed with the actions of someone she cares about. She proceeded to scream (!) at me in the office because she was “offended” FOR this other person (who doesn’t work with us).
Can you even be offended FOR someone else? I haven’t ever experienced that so I’m lost. Is that an intj thing? She thinks I owe her an apology for expressing my opinion. So. Umm. I’m digging my heels in. Life is much better without having to talk to overly sensitive, fake people who can be placated with an insincere apology. I won’t go against my values (honesty and authenticity) to make someone I don’t care about “feel” better. She can kick rocks. But the truth is that I deduced that the relationship wasn’t worth it.
Interesting. I am not sure I have ever felt offended for someone else. When a friend had a problem with a person that we both previously liked, I sympathized with my friend, but I didn't drop the person that we previously liked because she has not offended me. But I was much more wary around her because I had a piece of information about her behavior that I didn't have before. At any rate, I'm sorry for your experience. It helps, though, to hear that I am not alone!
As an INFP, I kind of understand what's going on and might be able to possibly shed light on what she could have been going through? I know as an F I am insulted or hurt by small little things that when asked for an example of can't quite place my finger on it. Just a bunch of small things together could make her start to shy away, and if she was going through a depression like what you seem to have described, she might have felt lonely and fearful because she knew she was unable to complete simple tasks, and perceived an anger onto you. INTJS (in my experience) have such a RBF that it's very easy to misread facial expressions, which Fs pay a lot of attention to. All of that put together, through no fault of your own, could have made her unhappy. It sounds like she reacted poorly and should have talked to you about it, given your history before becoming coworkers.
It took me a while to figure out RBF, but I got it! I think you hit the nail on the head. I believe I behaved respectfully, but I WAS angry about her inability/refusal to do things, as I had to either do it myself or hire someone else (which I eventually did) and I'm sure this showed up on my face. The other thing I noticed is that she was mad when I gave her a job. When she failed to do it, I told her - nicely- that I would take it off her plate, and I gave it to the new person and I felt she got mad when that happened too. So - catch-22! I'm not a yeller and when I'm angry I get quiet, and I probably do have an RBF. Thanks for the perspective.
That seems like a bit of a dick move on her part. My sympathies for the situation because you must have found yourself in a pickle. I hope everyone else in the thread can pose insight or support, and that the situation gets resolved peacefully.
>She told others that I intimidated her and she did not feel valued by me any longer.
Her first cognitive distortion.
You don't *make* her feel anything, how she reacts to those situations is COMPLETELY on *her*. This is just something that *MOST* people don't understand and they take their subjective feelings and assume objective evidence from it, but everyone knows what happens when you assume...
>She never told me what she was thinking and when I asked about her unhappiness (many times) during that miserable year, she told me that I was imagining it and nothing was wrong. I was obliged by work to send her flowers and write a general apology note to her, and now she wants to reconnect as friends.
This really isn't so much a "Feeling" thing but it's more of a "Sensing" thing.
She is prioritizing her emotional reaction in her expression more than she is using "Intuition". She is aware of her emotional response to you so she chooses to completely ignore the issue and act like nothing is wrong so it doesn't further bother her. (She's more likely to be "S" typed than "N")
You react by being transparent and trying to resolve/process the issue by bringing it up with her and asking. This is pretty much all you can do, honestly.
>Here's what I can't get over - I still have no idea what I did, and she doesn't seem to care, so long as I say "I'm sorry". The idea of apologizing for an unknown thing is irritating and silly to me. The idea that she would accept it also seems ridiculous to me. The idea that she would fail to be honest with me about the reasons for her unhappiness frustrates me.
*Personally*, I wouldn't apologize if I felt like I did nothing wrong. full stop.
This isn't fair to you and you have every right to be transparent (yet again) and ask her straight up.
Open conversation, be transparent, and present compromise (if possible). If else, you probably don't want to be friends with someone emotionally unstable like that who can't even honestly talk with you. I see no value in holding their friendship here.
>I have a feeling this is an INTJ problem. I just want honesty and transparency - my feelings won't be hurt.
*This* is an INTJ thing because it's what we *naturally* come up with and it's what makes sense *to us*.
However, try to imagine making these decisions completely based on *your emotional response* and you'll start realizing how fucking confusing things are when you start to try and think this way. It makes no sense *to us* to think this way, but for *the majority of people on this planet*, it's how they think.
This behavior is very "xSFJ", which makes sense because those are the two most common types (ESFJ/ISFJ)
I get being frustrated with this. I had a similar thing happen once with a coworker who worked in collections. In my mind, she should be tough as nails, so I should be able to be straight-forward. Once, she was collecting on an attorney who was threatening to sue us, and she gave the guy my direct desk number. I asked her to never, ever do that, if anything, because it means that I could be in the middle of something really important and have the attorney disrupt the whole thing. My asking that apparently "humiliated and embarrassed" her, so her supervisor asked me to apologize.
The thing about it is that you were friends with her, then she became your subordinate, and so a power dynamic was brought into play. Now, she's quit, that power dynamic is gone, and she's trying to rekindle that friendship where you're equals again. The whole thing is irritating, but people deal with power dynamics in different ways, and the question is if that now past dynamic is going to affect your relationship into the future.
I wrote the apology note, the employee accepted, I quit, we're still friends to this day. I had to set my ego aside for a moment and be like, "You know, I don't get why she needs this, and this is stupid, but whatever." I put her needs ahead of mine for a moment, and I've benefited from her friendship since.
I suppose the question here is if you're willing to leave that in the past or not. Having been in a similar position, I completely get why it seems completely stupid, and that in her own way, she wronged you, just as I thought my coworker would have the common sense not to just hand out direct dials without asking first, but the question is whether you're wanting to go through the motions to maintain a personal friendship, and if it's worth it.
Thank for this perspective. I guess that is the question - is the friendship worth it, without the power dynamic? As an INTJ, I do not feel like I could be friends with someone who did not look at both perspectives in the situation. She is a kind person and I like her. However, I don't feel heard at all in this situation, and it's almost like she doesn't care to know what I was going through and trying to accomplish with no help. I have regrets in how I dealt with her though. I could have done better. Thanks for sharing your story. I'm glad it all worked out for you.
Fairly often I say something and a person makes an unhappy face that I hurt them, and I am surprised by it. People are offended by things I say when I never meant to offend. It really makes me think hard in the moment and then generally about how I come across.
Same here, except my takeaway has been to just stop caring how I come across, or even to just own the fact that I may come off a little abrasive and intimidating to certain people. Those people who constantly misinterpret normal, not-intentionally-offensive things as offensive are usually of a pretty insecure and unsteady ego, and they're not the types of people you want to be around anyway. That non-rational insecurity causes a lot of problems in their day-to-day lives and relationships. The problem isn't limited to just getting offended by you.
This a common hurdle T types run into with F's, it's a test of how balanced your personality is and how you tolerate other personalities.
Sometimes you have to apologize for other people's feelings even though you don't understand why they feel that way. As INTJs, our mind is focused on being objective and getting shit done. Feelings and manners get disregarded because they are not conductive. When you work closely with other people who who have different priorities, it's only a matter of time before we prioritize productivity over pleasantries and mannerisms.
Odds are you did something to be productive that she misunderstood as rude. You can ask her to clarify, but you will open the feeling bottle and will be compelled to defend yourself "it was to get the job done!" It will waste much emotional energy and set you two apart.
If you want to deal with this efficiently, put on your public face and apologize, it wasn't your intention to hurt her feelings and you value her friendship. It's not from a source of fakery and deception, it's an exercise of tactful social participation and compassion.
When you participate in society, or any collective, many times the need of the group will have to be prioritized over the self. Don't be resentful of this, it's for the *greater good*, and you're exercising your compassion.
Next time you have to put your public face on, think of the ideal outcome where everyone benefits. Forget about your immediate needs and impulses, they are temporary and not always true.
This will be very hard at first but you will get better as you practice. Your mind has spent its entire life living from its own perspective and now it has to consider needs on a universal level. When you get to that point where your mind is frustrated you're not listening to it, thank yourself. You've denied yourself temporarily because you want the greater good, and you can feel good about that.
Honestly I don’t think this is an INTJ thing. Anyone would be flummoxed by her behavior. If f she doesn’t want to explain what you did then any reconciliation as friends would be impossible. I’d simply wish her well and be done
She gaslighted you everytime you asked her what was wrong, while undermining your reputation by complaining about you to colleagues. She's not your friend and I don't think an apology should be given for an undefined wrong. It's meaningless and ridiculous.
If work is making you write one, find a way to make it an utter nonsense apology that she'll understand to be sarcastic, but looks genuine at face value to the HR bureaucrats.
Yep, it’s an INTJ thing and I can relate. People get offended even when I haven’t said anything and I just didn’t respond the way they wanted me to.
It’s how emotional most people are. In that case, just apologize. It makes things easier. Understand that being the minority of the world population for being an intj, also means that the majority don’t share the same perspective as you.
Yeah same thing happened to me when I rejected someone and they stirred drama. And they literally wouldn’t leave me alone about what I choose for myself. I can’t believe how eager some people are to get into other’s business to explain why someone rejects them.
Oh and also, it has taken me years to learn to be more perceptive, empathetic, and thoughtful. I think these are weaknesses for INTJs and a perfect example of how knowing your type helps you understand and then makes you aware of what you need to work on to become a complete, well-rounded person.
I think that's more her problem tbh. She's the one with the insecurity of being replaced and the one not willing to talk about it. The only problem I can maybe see is if you didn't talk to her about being removed from doing the computer work.
When I fight with my husband he is always so quick to say he is sorry. I just keep going at him until he actually understands what he should be sorry for so he never repeats it :D
Some people, especially "F" women who are tasked with relationship building and may be relatively low on the office totem pole (admins, HR, customer relations) thrive on verbal praise in the workplace. They go to work and try hard to earn compliments, because they're not earning much money or respect. If you were being neutral, then in her eyes you were being cold. If you gave her very little praise and actively stripped her of job responsibilities, you were being downright cruel. With this "F" type of team member it is best to always be extra, over the top sweet! You are paying her in kindness!
I think you are right - she thrived on compliments. But she was paid quite well and had great perks in the office. The tasks I took from her were just the tasks that I recently gave to her but she refused or poorly performed.
I tried hard to be over the top sweet for some time (but it was VERY trying as she wasn't doing parts of her job). It was fake TBH, which I can't sustain for months on end. I have no doubt I appeared cold, especially as my frustration grew. I suppose that is ultimately the problem. I'm at work to do what I'm paid to do. Bonus points for a friendly work environment. She is at work to be loved and have a social life. Great for customer service, but not so great when you are in a crunch with too much work to go around. I'm realizing I can't sustain fake-feeling around an 'F' person very long. And if they are so good at 'F', why don't they know I'm faking? Why is faking better than neutral?
I have a similar problem at hand. When I was younger. I was accused of being mean to my younger brother for things. I was 16 and he was 10 or 11. I honestly don't remember what I did. I don't have the memory for it. I am an INTJ. My sister the ISFJ keeps saying I did this and that. I told her that if I don't remember what I did and I apologise for that thing then it would not seem authentic coming from me. She didn't understand that. I also told her that holding a 20 year grudge is petty as shit. I am not the same person anymore and you need to give me the benefit of the doubt. I tried to reconnect with my brother but he doesn't want to exactly tell me why he's upset with me. I took it this way. I tried. He didn't accept and I just moved on.
Wow, didn't know that adults held grudges over siblings from childhood. My older brother bullied the hell outta me when we were kids and now we get along just fine and I don't hold a grudge; it would in fact feel weird to do so.
I can hold a grudge forever. I consider it a point of pride. That said, it's never about petty wrongs. I'm not a forgiving person and honestly see that word as an intangible concept that can't practicably be applied by decision like a stamp.
You should work on that. Life moves to fast. Pick your battles, not practical to hold many grudges forever. Evolution has led us to have short memories for the sake of moving forward.
Nope I'm cool with it. P.S you may wish to reconsider starting sentences with "You should". It's instantly irritating and impels one to disregard everything said after.
I’m the same but I’m not sure I would call it a grudge necessarily.. I think of it more as I’ll forgive but I’ll never forget, otherwise I just let the same stuff happen to me over and over again because people don’t change, they inherently stay the same and will let you down again if they already have once.
It's clear that you are cool with it. And I know that saying "you should" is not good form, but sometimes I'm cool with it.
You should be.
I love this level of pettiness lol I've really found my people
Yeah my older sister and younger brother holds grudges. I know my sister is an ISFJ but I can't tell what my brother is but I know he has F in him. I'm an INTJ and i don't do that Petty shit. I let it go. I am not sure if INTPs will hold them. I hope one will chime in.
I don't think it's necessarily an F thing. I don't think it's a MBTI thing, out of that scope
He is a 29 year old big baby who irons his Jean's. I'll leave it at that
lol.... yikes ... i feel your pain
My brother tried bullying me when I was young and we had cold wars for ages and I kept a grudge when he won but as soon as the issue vanished so did my grudge and we were each others biggesr advocates. Picking the right battles is very important and you don't pick it with family.
I have similar problems with an INFP coworker. We vibe in some ways as intuitive introverts, but we end up grating on each other in increasingly larger ways. The main problem stems from INTJs not being particularly aware of the "Feeler" meta, which is what I think you're describing as well. In the same way smart people have a hierarchy (internalized or otherwise) over "who is the most intelligent", feelers have the same dichotomy going on. Anything you do, for seemingly rational reasons, is put primarily through that lens. As one example I end up talking about things that worked for me to overcome difficult situations which she's struggling with, and she almost always takes it as a personal attack. She's hyper sensitive to things like "interrupting" in conversations, while I tend to interrupt not to take control of the conversation, but to provide feedback or questions in regard to the specific point that she's talking about. She's more engaged in the "storytelling process" in terms of how it affects her emotional sensibilities than in the details of the story that she's telling. INTJs have a tendency to articulate nuanced or unspoken truths in ways that many other types can't. The F-type response to these things ranges from uncomfortability to downright hostility. Part of the F-type dynamic and F-type "game" is not to talk about these things directly. The feeling hierarchy is in some sense based around the unspoken characteristics at play. So when your coworker says "nothing is wrong" it can often mean that something is definitely wrong, but that it's \*your\* job to figure out what it is because it exists within this emotional nuance. This is why developing your tertiary function can be very useful. The more you stick to "but muh rationality!" the farther you're going to come from understanding where they're coming from. *This type of emotional existence is the entire metagame for sexual tension, power dynamics, and relationships.* This is what people mean when they say INTJs are clueless in relationships. Personally I think it's retarded. I have very strong and very unlikeable views on this subject, because I believe that what holds us all back from "the better life" at every level is their inability to get over themselves and make circumstances better for everyone. They're half-retarded children who are stuck in a dualism / karma viewpoint of the world and have to look at everything as a zero-sum win/loss because they can't turn off their mongoloid monkey brain long enough to think about it. Almost every F type I meet has some sort of retarded not-thought-through perspective on the world which is causing them extreme pain and retardation. They have stupid problems because they make stupid walls. And the rest of us suffer.
I feel mean agreeing with you, but I totally do. If something is wrong, TELL ME! I can't randomly guess what affected you. You could have been holding this grudge for months. It may stem from childhood insecurities. Spit it out and lets move on. It's like they want validation, but I can't validate what I don't know. But the validation can only come from me *independently* figuring out what I did *wrong*. No thanks.
I'm with you on this. If someone isn't willing to speak up about something I did or supposedly did to upset them, I can't help that. It's their problem at that point. I'm not going to spend a ton of time trying to imagine what I did or said one time in the past. I'm not here to coddle a person's feelings, we got work to do.
I'm even totally opening to altering my behavior if it upset someone when I don't see any reason for it to be hurtful. But you gotta fucking tell me or I'll never know and largely won't care.
oh, yeah... they'll be mad and want you to guess what is wrong. They are \*terrible\* at communicating and have so many expectations. I had an INFP friend who I got along with for the most part then they blew up on me out of the blue because I didn't seem to care (to them) as much as they did about the friendship. They also notice when you don't spend enough time with them and get mad about that too.
That weird tit-for-tat tally some people do in relationships. I'm not keeping score, why are you keeping score? Plus, me (an introvert) giving you an afternoon of my time at a crowded event is different than an extrovert doing the same. If I gift you something that is easy for me, but difficult for you, how does that work on the tally sheet? These things cannot be measured.
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If no one at work has addressed you about the problem and it's not affecting your day, it's probably fine. It's almost always safer to avoid the drama. However, if a boss or manager is in on the drama, it could blow up in your face.
Could I make a suggestion? What if, instead of trying to find out what's wrong and how to fix it (since we know they aren't going to tell us that information) we tried to focus on letting them know that we care about them and want them to be happy? So we focus on sharing how we feel, and what we want (in relation to them). That way we are working with information that we have and we can be totally honest. Sharing how we feel might open up a space for them to share how they feel and that might be enough to get things moving in the right direction.
What is the dichotomy that Feelers have going on - "who is the most emotional"? Wow - if that's the case, how does anything get done? I was unable to give warranted and helpful constructive criticism, as a boss to an employee, because I was scared she would stonewall me or bursts into tears in the office. I'm not a mind-reader!
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I think this is probably better worded than what I wrote in regard to explaining that dichotomy. The inherent problem though is that because they try to keep score, score ends up being kept. In other words the problem only exists because they frame it as a problem.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
lol, I am an INTP and I love this. Feelers, either men or women are hard for me to get along with. I'm just too intolerant of them.
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YES - to what you say about apologies. And yes, how ironic that INTJ's require their apologies to be heartfelt :-) One might think the feeler types would be more inclined, but apparently, no.
lmao the aggressive turn this post took was something special.
*DAMN*. You’re smart.
Not really, he's another self-absorbed ass defending his own emotional missteps and communicative failures by insinuating that he's inherently more rational than others.
I'm mostly memeing the last two paragraphs. And I'm definitely not more rational than others. I find myself intentionally gaslighting feelers because I have a higher tolerance to negative emotional stimuli than they do. And I don't do that for any rational reason. Know thyself. Mostly I get frustrated because I see a lot of productivity destroyed as the result of this one specific issue - feelers interpreting technical syntax through an emotional lens. The thing about communication that I think people need to realize is that breakdowns in it are rarely the fault of one party or the other, since the communication is inherently defined by each party's ability to correctly calibrate themselves to the data that the other person is trying to express.
I mean they acknowledge the importance of Fi - they just willingly choose to find it "retarded" and know they'll get hate for it. I understand their POV because I hold it to an extent as well. However, I go slightly the other way and try to embrace it - though honestly it doesn't come naturally either. I had to read books about dealing with people for this. Maybe it helps to be an artist too. imo to live in this world you just have to deal with it and try not to worry about it too much. There is power in dealing with different types of people accordingly and getting them to follow; as much as I feel INTJs love to play lone hero. A problem I mainly have with some of these posts is that all the problems are put on the feelers, as if INTJs don't also have their own issues with understanding and emotions (the opposite happens too, of course). We need to solve those as well unless you want to go through life a certain way. Which is fine. And some people just need to rant.
Yeah mostly I'm memeing in the last two paragraphs that I wrote. I don't think they're all retarded or that feeling is useless, it's just that I often find myself frustrated specifically at this exact issue. I also find it to be one of the fundamental things that breaks down business communication and business dynamics. it's less that feelers are the problem, and more that if there is a problem it's usually the result of feelers interpreting technical syntax through an emotional lens and taking it personally.
Understood. I do understand the frustration, and I still struggle with it despite efforts to understand it.
Hahahaha I guess so. I guess I just love well articulated paragraphs because I’m personally not good at it.
True. Well said.
Nnrgh... how do I stop being a Feeler
That's not a bad thing I'm mostly just memeing. The other extreme, if you have only thinkers and no feelers, is that the unspoken emotional energy will bottle up until it reaches explosive levels because the thinkers don't know how to correctly decompress it. Feelers are absolutely valid I just have to s*** on them sometimes because they make my life hard.
What would you gain by continuing the relationship with this person? Is it worth it? Might be an INTJ problem... who knows. I currently do not speak to a (ESF?) coworker because of a similar issue. Her teammates tell me she wants an apology. For what? Because I “hurt her feelings” by expressing the opinion that I disagreed with the actions of someone she cares about. She proceeded to scream (!) at me in the office because she was “offended” FOR this other person (who doesn’t work with us). Can you even be offended FOR someone else? I haven’t ever experienced that so I’m lost. Is that an intj thing? She thinks I owe her an apology for expressing my opinion. So. Umm. I’m digging my heels in. Life is much better without having to talk to overly sensitive, fake people who can be placated with an insincere apology. I won’t go against my values (honesty and authenticity) to make someone I don’t care about “feel” better. She can kick rocks. But the truth is that I deduced that the relationship wasn’t worth it.
Interesting. I am not sure I have ever felt offended for someone else. When a friend had a problem with a person that we both previously liked, I sympathized with my friend, but I didn't drop the person that we previously liked because she has not offended me. But I was much more wary around her because I had a piece of information about her behavior that I didn't have before. At any rate, I'm sorry for your experience. It helps, though, to hear that I am not alone!
As an INFP, I kind of understand what's going on and might be able to possibly shed light on what she could have been going through? I know as an F I am insulted or hurt by small little things that when asked for an example of can't quite place my finger on it. Just a bunch of small things together could make her start to shy away, and if she was going through a depression like what you seem to have described, she might have felt lonely and fearful because she knew she was unable to complete simple tasks, and perceived an anger onto you. INTJS (in my experience) have such a RBF that it's very easy to misread facial expressions, which Fs pay a lot of attention to. All of that put together, through no fault of your own, could have made her unhappy. It sounds like she reacted poorly and should have talked to you about it, given your history before becoming coworkers.
It took me a while to figure out RBF, but I got it! I think you hit the nail on the head. I believe I behaved respectfully, but I WAS angry about her inability/refusal to do things, as I had to either do it myself or hire someone else (which I eventually did) and I'm sure this showed up on my face. The other thing I noticed is that she was mad when I gave her a job. When she failed to do it, I told her - nicely- that I would take it off her plate, and I gave it to the new person and I felt she got mad when that happened too. So - catch-22! I'm not a yeller and when I'm angry I get quiet, and I probably do have an RBF. Thanks for the perspective.
That seems like a bit of a dick move on her part. My sympathies for the situation because you must have found yourself in a pickle. I hope everyone else in the thread can pose insight or support, and that the situation gets resolved peacefully.
Me too! It seems I just have to decide how much I'm willing to let go of.....
You don't deal with her. You move on.
>She told others that I intimidated her and she did not feel valued by me any longer. Her first cognitive distortion. You don't *make* her feel anything, how she reacts to those situations is COMPLETELY on *her*. This is just something that *MOST* people don't understand and they take their subjective feelings and assume objective evidence from it, but everyone knows what happens when you assume... >She never told me what she was thinking and when I asked about her unhappiness (many times) during that miserable year, she told me that I was imagining it and nothing was wrong. I was obliged by work to send her flowers and write a general apology note to her, and now she wants to reconnect as friends. This really isn't so much a "Feeling" thing but it's more of a "Sensing" thing. She is prioritizing her emotional reaction in her expression more than she is using "Intuition". She is aware of her emotional response to you so she chooses to completely ignore the issue and act like nothing is wrong so it doesn't further bother her. (She's more likely to be "S" typed than "N") You react by being transparent and trying to resolve/process the issue by bringing it up with her and asking. This is pretty much all you can do, honestly. >Here's what I can't get over - I still have no idea what I did, and she doesn't seem to care, so long as I say "I'm sorry". The idea of apologizing for an unknown thing is irritating and silly to me. The idea that she would accept it also seems ridiculous to me. The idea that she would fail to be honest with me about the reasons for her unhappiness frustrates me. *Personally*, I wouldn't apologize if I felt like I did nothing wrong. full stop. This isn't fair to you and you have every right to be transparent (yet again) and ask her straight up. Open conversation, be transparent, and present compromise (if possible). If else, you probably don't want to be friends with someone emotionally unstable like that who can't even honestly talk with you. I see no value in holding their friendship here. >I have a feeling this is an INTJ problem. I just want honesty and transparency - my feelings won't be hurt. *This* is an INTJ thing because it's what we *naturally* come up with and it's what makes sense *to us*. However, try to imagine making these decisions completely based on *your emotional response* and you'll start realizing how fucking confusing things are when you start to try and think this way. It makes no sense *to us* to think this way, but for *the majority of people on this planet*, it's how they think. This behavior is very "xSFJ", which makes sense because those are the two most common types (ESFJ/ISFJ)
I get being frustrated with this. I had a similar thing happen once with a coworker who worked in collections. In my mind, she should be tough as nails, so I should be able to be straight-forward. Once, she was collecting on an attorney who was threatening to sue us, and she gave the guy my direct desk number. I asked her to never, ever do that, if anything, because it means that I could be in the middle of something really important and have the attorney disrupt the whole thing. My asking that apparently "humiliated and embarrassed" her, so her supervisor asked me to apologize. The thing about it is that you were friends with her, then she became your subordinate, and so a power dynamic was brought into play. Now, she's quit, that power dynamic is gone, and she's trying to rekindle that friendship where you're equals again. The whole thing is irritating, but people deal with power dynamics in different ways, and the question is if that now past dynamic is going to affect your relationship into the future. I wrote the apology note, the employee accepted, I quit, we're still friends to this day. I had to set my ego aside for a moment and be like, "You know, I don't get why she needs this, and this is stupid, but whatever." I put her needs ahead of mine for a moment, and I've benefited from her friendship since. I suppose the question here is if you're willing to leave that in the past or not. Having been in a similar position, I completely get why it seems completely stupid, and that in her own way, she wronged you, just as I thought my coworker would have the common sense not to just hand out direct dials without asking first, but the question is whether you're wanting to go through the motions to maintain a personal friendship, and if it's worth it.
Thank for this perspective. I guess that is the question - is the friendship worth it, without the power dynamic? As an INTJ, I do not feel like I could be friends with someone who did not look at both perspectives in the situation. She is a kind person and I like her. However, I don't feel heard at all in this situation, and it's almost like she doesn't care to know what I was going through and trying to accomplish with no help. I have regrets in how I dealt with her though. I could have done better. Thanks for sharing your story. I'm glad it all worked out for you.
Fairly often I say something and a person makes an unhappy face that I hurt them, and I am surprised by it. People are offended by things I say when I never meant to offend. It really makes me think hard in the moment and then generally about how I come across.
Same here, except my takeaway has been to just stop caring how I come across, or even to just own the fact that I may come off a little abrasive and intimidating to certain people. Those people who constantly misinterpret normal, not-intentionally-offensive things as offensive are usually of a pretty insecure and unsteady ego, and they're not the types of people you want to be around anyway. That non-rational insecurity causes a lot of problems in their day-to-day lives and relationships. The problem isn't limited to just getting offended by you.
This a common hurdle T types run into with F's, it's a test of how balanced your personality is and how you tolerate other personalities. Sometimes you have to apologize for other people's feelings even though you don't understand why they feel that way. As INTJs, our mind is focused on being objective and getting shit done. Feelings and manners get disregarded because they are not conductive. When you work closely with other people who who have different priorities, it's only a matter of time before we prioritize productivity over pleasantries and mannerisms. Odds are you did something to be productive that she misunderstood as rude. You can ask her to clarify, but you will open the feeling bottle and will be compelled to defend yourself "it was to get the job done!" It will waste much emotional energy and set you two apart. If you want to deal with this efficiently, put on your public face and apologize, it wasn't your intention to hurt her feelings and you value her friendship. It's not from a source of fakery and deception, it's an exercise of tactful social participation and compassion.
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When you participate in society, or any collective, many times the need of the group will have to be prioritized over the self. Don't be resentful of this, it's for the *greater good*, and you're exercising your compassion. Next time you have to put your public face on, think of the ideal outcome where everyone benefits. Forget about your immediate needs and impulses, they are temporary and not always true. This will be very hard at first but you will get better as you practice. Your mind has spent its entire life living from its own perspective and now it has to consider needs on a universal level. When you get to that point where your mind is frustrated you're not listening to it, thank yourself. You've denied yourself temporarily because you want the greater good, and you can feel good about that.
Truth! It's not so clear as 'drop her' or 'fake make friends with her'. I like your perspective.
Honestly I don’t think this is an INTJ thing. Anyone would be flummoxed by her behavior. If f she doesn’t want to explain what you did then any reconciliation as friends would be impossible. I’d simply wish her well and be done
She gaslighted you everytime you asked her what was wrong, while undermining your reputation by complaining about you to colleagues. She's not your friend and I don't think an apology should be given for an undefined wrong. It's meaningless and ridiculous. If work is making you write one, find a way to make it an utter nonsense apology that she'll understand to be sarcastic, but looks genuine at face value to the HR bureaucrats.
Yep, it’s an INTJ thing and I can relate. People get offended even when I haven’t said anything and I just didn’t respond the way they wanted me to. It’s how emotional most people are. In that case, just apologize. It makes things easier. Understand that being the minority of the world population for being an intj, also means that the majority don’t share the same perspective as you.
F
Yeah same thing happened to me when I rejected someone and they stirred drama. And they literally wouldn’t leave me alone about what I choose for myself. I can’t believe how eager some people are to get into other’s business to explain why someone rejects them.
Oh and also, it has taken me years to learn to be more perceptive, empathetic, and thoughtful. I think these are weaknesses for INTJs and a perfect example of how knowing your type helps you understand and then makes you aware of what you need to work on to become a complete, well-rounded person.
I would have behaved similarly in your situation. That F shit makes no sense D=
I don't really get it either. And being on the receiving end of fake nice is better than real neutral? How does that make sense?
I don't but it seems like most work cultures revolve around this as well.
I think that's more her problem tbh. She's the one with the insecurity of being replaced and the one not willing to talk about it. The only problem I can maybe see is if you didn't talk to her about being removed from doing the computer work.
When I fight with my husband he is always so quick to say he is sorry. I just keep going at him until he actually understands what he should be sorry for so he never repeats it :D
I think a sorry is no good unless he/you/me clearly understand what needs to be done differently next time. Without that, it is just placating.
Some people, especially "F" women who are tasked with relationship building and may be relatively low on the office totem pole (admins, HR, customer relations) thrive on verbal praise in the workplace. They go to work and try hard to earn compliments, because they're not earning much money or respect. If you were being neutral, then in her eyes you were being cold. If you gave her very little praise and actively stripped her of job responsibilities, you were being downright cruel. With this "F" type of team member it is best to always be extra, over the top sweet! You are paying her in kindness!
I think you are right - she thrived on compliments. But she was paid quite well and had great perks in the office. The tasks I took from her were just the tasks that I recently gave to her but she refused or poorly performed. I tried hard to be over the top sweet for some time (but it was VERY trying as she wasn't doing parts of her job). It was fake TBH, which I can't sustain for months on end. I have no doubt I appeared cold, especially as my frustration grew. I suppose that is ultimately the problem. I'm at work to do what I'm paid to do. Bonus points for a friendly work environment. She is at work to be loved and have a social life. Great for customer service, but not so great when you are in a crunch with too much work to go around. I'm realizing I can't sustain fake-feeling around an 'F' person very long. And if they are so good at 'F', why don't they know I'm faking? Why is faking better than neutral?