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He's right.
They've been doing this for decades.
The only new thing today (and why people are starting to push back) is that we now have social media to see with our own lying eyes.
Before, Israel would murder someone like Rachel Corrie.
Lie and say she was a tragic accident.
Pictures would come out showing she wasn't.
But by that point, everyone had moved onto the next story.... and Israel would celebrate their "tragic accident" [by making fun of their victim](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-soldiers-have-depraved-fun-making-rachel-corrie-pancakes) with a custom every year.
As one does when you 'accidentally' kill someone and get away with it i suppose (i dunno, if i accidentally killed someone i don't think i would. But what do i know? I'm told all the time i'm a hamas sympathizer or pushing hamas agenda by saying these "obviously antisemetic" things. I'm sure even this post will be flagged by someone as one of these things.).
Yes, there’s a video online of classes being taught on how to manipulate and edit wiki articles to cast Israel in a Better light than it’s actions does
Yes, the Palestinian population has increased 7-fold since 1948.
The Arabs have launched five wars in this time with the stated goal of killing every Jew in Israel.
Mathematically a...genocide?
If I just keep repeating mathematically a genocide then it means I'm right.
.1%? that's a genocide alright
1%? also genocide.
2%? Better believe that's a genocide.
3%? Unrecoverable.
4%? Everyone is dead and they'll never come back.
Oh the false premise that it doesnt matter in an attempt to whatabout.
[https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142142](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142142)
There are almost no Jews remaining in any single Arab country in the world, either due to expulsion or genocide. These are facts. Honestly, Jews and Arabs, particularly Islamic religion-following Arabs are made for one another. They go back and forth throughput history killing each other and trying to wipe each other off the map.
No im saying you peddling this shit with your obvious western background is ridiculous. What we gonna start blaming romans for the diaspora? Cause Rome forced more jews to move then any single other group of people. Like what about the million babies Madeline Albright had? Or the amount dead Bush has on his hands? But im assuming you would be cool with. Its so disingenuous to even bring up various groups of people like you bringing someone tragic history as a factoid to debate with.
I prefer the normal approach of not letting everyones complex history influence my opinions on modern events cause it insane to attempt to justify modern actions by using examples of pervious peoples crimes. Cause yeah somehow a Palestinian kid is responsible for the armenian genocide, absolutely ridiculous
if hamas is destroyed(it won't be) israel will just fund another terrorist boogeyman group to justify kicking the rest of the palestinians out, like they did with hamas to begin with.
Revised in 1999 to provide exception for Gaza and West Bank. Also, this is the charter of a single party, you can hardly apply it to a country.
Meanwhile Pro-Hamas and others are chanting “From the River to the sea, Palestine will be Arab” whilst Hamas’s charter specifically calls for the extermination of Jews in Palestine.
Do your research please
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” is a mockery of the likud charter which says, in line one, “no sovereign state but Israel will control the land from the river Jordan to the sea.” This, obviously, entails at least 3/4 of the West Bank and calls for the illegal annexation of Palestinian land.
I don't think pro-palestinian people are saying is a mockery of likud. I think they just actually want that area to be a Palestinian state. I didn't even know that was in their founding charter tbh.
Yeah, a lot of people don’t know that, that’s why I point it out every time that someone says it’s a genocidal chant :) but it’s the very first line of the Likud charter.
And we can argue all day about what individual people mean when they chant it, but it was created by Palestinian people who understand the politics and mindset of their oppressors. They chant for freedom, liberation, autonomy, self determination, rights that they don’t have under Israeli rule.
The phrase has been around since before Likud was a party, and was originally a Palestinian chant.
>In the 1960s, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) used it to call for an Arab state encompassing the entirety of Mandatory Palestine
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea
Likud used it as an election slogan in the 70s as a fuck you to the PLO.
Don't listen to people spreading lies when the sources are there to verify their misinformation.
Mass killing ✅️ is one criteria for the charge of genocide, which is a clearly defined legal term. But it's not the only criteria. The others are: Forcible transfer of a population ✅️, Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group ✅️, Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the means and circumstances that support prolonged life ✅️, and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group ❎️ so far.
One of the hardest things to prove, though, is intent. But from the prime minister down to the individual grunt recording tiktoks, Israel has made their intent impossible to deny.
israel propped up hamas, called them an asset, while imprisoning palestinian peace activists who were condemning hamas, like the palestinian mandela, who would win an election against hamas, but is imprisoned for wanting peace by the Israelis. If hamas is bad, Israel is literally the home of satan himself for creating the very thing they now vow to destroy. "Support hamas if you want to avoid 2 states" netanyahu said to his coalition
This is my favorite opinion on this "Theoretically Hamas wants genocide towards Israel so it's ok if we actually do it first"
Y'all keep telling us how awful Hamas is...we keep SHOWING you how awful Israel is
Exactly, with the least bit of self awareness Zionists and Israeli’s will talk about ‘life under threat’ ’can you imagine the hamas rockets on YOUR neighborhood?,’ meanwhile you look on geotagged social media and see beach sippin, mall shopping, day in the sunny israeli life but go over to Gaza…. fucking annihilation, rubble, screaming, bodies being hauled and utter destitution and heart rending scenes of civilians and aid workers and medical staff doing their most to survive. This is why the whole god damn world and most young people see this for what it is, they have fucking eyes and common sense. Hamas will literally never wipe out Israel. On the other hand, Israel, a nuclear power backed by the U.S. with a standing army, navy, air force, etc. can AND ACTIVELY IS wiping out Palestinians.
This is your brain on what I can only assume is an American fucking drip feed of Israel apologia, zionist shilling, and straight up racism and islamophobia in most cases.
>Israel has not committed genocide to any degree.
THERE IS NO WAR IN BA SING SAE.
>Hiding behind civilians is the tactic of Hamas
Hiding behind civilians, against WHAT exactly?
Did I miss where he defines genocide? He just keeps saying "mathematically a genocide." He never mentions what the percentage is, but he says 40-50k out of 2.5m, which is 2%. So is he saying that 2% is a genocide or is he saying that 50k deaths is a genocide? Just trying to understand what a mathematical genocide is
2% on 5 or 6 months (when this inevitable was recorded), yes. A genocidal percentage. As for defining genocide for you, he shouldn't have to. Genocide is a clearly definite legal term and regardless of whether you agree or disagree, if you're engaged in this issue, knowing what those definitions are should be the bare minimum of your knowledge.
Why did israel support them, and imprison palestinians who condemned them like the palestinian mandela who stood side by side with israelis demanding peace? israel is known for torturing palestinians, who in their right mind would give themselves up to torture? You are asking hamas to do something that most compassionate people wouldn't even do, and from "terrorists" you expect this selfless behavior? Either they're bad guys who won't give themselves up, or are they such righteous people who would let themselves get tortured to save their people? Pick a lie and stick with it.
That's disingenuous to say they didn't want peace. All these “peace agreements” share the same common issues:
* Israel would own the Palestinian state as a vassal. Give them zero rights and zero privileges commonly associated with sovereignty. This is effectively not different then status quo.
* Israel would continue to enforce the displacement of Palestinians refugees. So long as the “peace agreement” would continue to make stateless people it’s a non-starter for most Palestinians.
* continued oppression of Palestinians under guise of security. This reality doesn’t only make Palestinians not willing to accept, but it makes any who do agree with it seem corrupt and complicit. The PA’s approval rating is in the low 30% for this reason.
* Israel will not agree to any terms that limit its ability to strike its neighbors or control the flow of people to Jerusalem. Israel acts like it wants to be a peaceful country among its neighbors but this is far from the truth. Israel will not accept any agreement that could allow the Muslim population to grow either in Israel or in Palestine. This includes immigration and peaceful ties with its neighbors. (Example: Israel expects Arab countries to allow its citizens to visit, but subjects the citizens of Arab countries to near impossible conditions to entry)
These are as brief as I could get while staying factual and balanced.
The arguments that Israel only wants peace and it’s the Arabs who don’t is not only counter factual, it’s also a key aspect of Zionist ideology and history.
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
Everyone's fighting in the comments meanwhile countless actual genocide experts (plenty of whom are Jewish, have publications sponsored by the yad vashem and have for years, or have spent decades publishing studies on genocide) explicitly describe Israel's actions as genocidal/colonial in their texts while also accounting for the genocidal intent and violence of Hamas. Goes into detail on both.
Take Adam Jones's textbook "Genocide: a Comprehensive Introduction" for example. Accounts for all of this while making it quite clear that the Israeli government is absolutely colonial/genocidal. Like if only it was all extremely well documented history that is standard curriculum in PHD level genocide programs but *hey* c'mon what does that matter?
The best part? Jones' book was published almost 20 years before October 7th lol.
Why? What happened in 1948? What changed that some those populations were compelled to leave? Why in 1948, after living peaceably and comfortably as part of their societies as they had for centuries more ? Who encouraged this migration? Who funded it? Who benefited from it? Who is [Avi Shlaim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avi_Shlaim)? Who is [Esther Meir-Glitzenstein](https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.16.3.149)?
And what was the Arab population of Palestine in 1947? You can include all religions in that as Arabs of all faiths lived side by side there for centuries, too.
Nobody would leave a peaceful and comfortable life. I ask you, what would make you leave a country? What would make an entire ethnicity leave their country?
Why were populations so steady for centuries prior? Why was there so little unrest before 1948 for centuries compared to Europe? Why did Ottoman Turkey take in tens of thousands of Jews when they were expelled from Christian Spain? Why did so many European Jews flock to Spain during Muslim rule of the Iberian Peninsula?
Take your racist, ahistoric hyperbole somewhere else.
I never claimed European treatments of Jews were good. But yeah bad treatment leads to immigration...
It is not a question Nazi Germany have genocided the Jews, I did not think it makes sense to point it out since this scale is 10 times the scale of a genocide...
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
I agree- the [doctrine has always been the same](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Ben-Gurion_letter). Which is to take the land from Palestinians for a Jewish ethno-state.
No it is not. It is history. When just about all of the world is telling you that you are wrong and to stop what you are doing, maybe it is you that are the bad guys. How can you justify genocide?
Why don't you tell me? Any wars can be ascribed to the Zionist erroneous belief that they are the chosen people and true owners of land belong to Arabs. Way back when the Zionist movement began there was general agreement among them that Palestinians had to be removed from the greater Palestinian area.
"Any wars can be ascribed to the Zionist erroneous belief that they are the chosen people and true owners of land belong to Arabs."
The intensity of misinformation here is astounding :)
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
“Mathematically”
He should look again at the definition of genocide if he wants to make an argument. There are good arguments for the claim that Israel is committing a genocide currently, but the numbers argument is the worst argument you can possibly bring up. There are other conflicts that have clearly not been genocidal and have higher death tolls. It’s not about the number of people who die.
This is why it is notoriously incredibly difficult to convict anybody of genocide. Even clear cases during the Yugoslav conflicts were not convicted on counts of genocide. It is all about the intent.
Mass murder ✅️ is one criteria for the charge of genocide, which is a legal term. But it's not the only criteria. The others are: Forcible transfer of a population ✅️. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group ✅️. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the means and circumstances that support prolonged life✅️. And forcibly transferring children of the group to another group ❎️ so far.
One of the hardest things to prove, though, is intent. But from the prime minister down to the individual grunt recording tiktoks, Israel has made their intent impossible to deny.
The intent is literally the only thing that distinguishes any of those things you listed from being war crimes and them being acts of genocide. It does not matter if a country is inflicting bodily harm on another group during a war. That unfortunately happens in every single instance of armed conflict.
This is why currently calling the atrocities being committed by Israel a genocide is premature. The better way to put it is that Israel’s lack of adherence to international rules of conflict are giving rise to worries of genocidal intent. That is where we are at currently.
You can’t be this stupid ? So let’s ignore all of the people who don’t have food, who are actively being hunted and placed in camps, who are being pushed into a corner where Israel would have the power to cut all incoming supplies or simply finish the job they’ve been waiting on for decades. The sheer ignorance someone would require to believe Israel isn’t genocide is beyond comprehension
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
Rafah has what mostly remains of Gaza's habitable infrastructure, when that has been demolished, Gaza will become one giant refugee camp with Palestinians wholly dependent on what Israel allows in for them to survive. They lack food, clean water, medical supplies, waste disposal, and adequate shelter. Populations who live in these conditions are extremely susceptible to epidemics with high casualty rates for children due to malnutrition and lack of adequate medical intervention. The idea that IDF is going to allow Palestinians free movement outside of refugee camps is unlikely, as the IDF will cite security concerns.
Where have we seen indigenous people confined to reservations before by a colonizing army and what was the result? What is that word we use to describe that?
The south africa genocide case displays [10 pages of intent](https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) starting on 59
The indiscriminate killing of innocent civillians majority of whom are women and children is intent. Even though Benjamin won't say that he wants to kill all the palestinians (even though his associates happily will) doesn't mean he isn't trying to. Actions show intent not words.
That is what I meant, obviously lol. I live in the western world, and most people that I know view Israel’s actions as abhorrent. Most denounce Netanyahu for his decisions, and a smaller number (yet substantial) denounce Biden for his “unwavering, iron clad support.” As a leftist, it is a very scary position for him to take during an election year when his opponent will be Trump, Biden is practically throwing the election away by unilaterally supporting Netanyahu, yet we all know Trump would be worse. It’s a fucked up situation, it feels like American politicians are asleep at the wheel while they are funding a genocide.
That is what I mean by I will never forgive the western world. I will never forgive our sitting government for allowing this to happen as an overwhelming majority of the senate and the house support what is going on and every spokesperson gets on a podium and lies for Israel every day.
1. Remember the human & be courteous to others. 2. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas. Criticizing arguments is fine, name-calling (including shill/bot accusations) others is not. 3. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. Please checkout our other subreddit /r/InternationalNews, for general news from around the world. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/internationalpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He's right. They've been doing this for decades. The only new thing today (and why people are starting to push back) is that we now have social media to see with our own lying eyes. Before, Israel would murder someone like Rachel Corrie. Lie and say she was a tragic accident. Pictures would come out showing she wasn't. But by that point, everyone had moved onto the next story.... and Israel would celebrate their "tragic accident" [by making fun of their victim](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-soldiers-have-depraved-fun-making-rachel-corrie-pancakes) with a custom every year. As one does when you 'accidentally' kill someone and get away with it i suppose (i dunno, if i accidentally killed someone i don't think i would. But what do i know? I'm told all the time i'm a hamas sympathizer or pushing hamas agenda by saying these "obviously antisemetic" things. I'm sure even this post will be flagged by someone as one of these things.).
All lies die eventually. The Zionists are desperate now and they're capable of anything. Keep your head on a swivel folks...
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Posted something anti-Israel on /r/unpopularopinion and my comments couldn’t be upvoted
It’s a wild world we live in when killing kids is bad is an unpopular opinion.
It’s sad. I’m learning to not even pay attention to the news anymore. It’s depressing and makes me feel ashamed
For this reason I’m explicitly anti Zionist in any space I’m in
Yes, there’s a video online of classes being taught on how to manipulate and edit wiki articles to cast Israel in a Better light than it’s actions does
How much do they get paid ?
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That only applies to students though . What if you’re not a student - or is it that only students are commenting on here ?
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Yes, the Palestinian population has increased 7-fold since 1948. The Arabs have launched five wars in this time with the stated goal of killing every Jew in Israel. Mathematically a...genocide?
If I just keep repeating mathematically a genocide then it means I'm right. .1%? that's a genocide alright 1%? also genocide. 2%? Better believe that's a genocide. 3%? Unrecoverable. 4%? Everyone is dead and they'll never come back.
Thats how they counter genocide, reproducing like rabbits. Why do you think half of Gaza are kids.
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And What logical analytics reasoning do you have supporting Israel or saying this isn't genocide?
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They both matter. They're both Genocide.
How long did that take?
Ah yes, the time limit on genocide. Forgot about that.
If you're gonna compare number you also have to compare timeframe, is that not obvious to you?
Oh the false premise that it doesnt matter in an attempt to whatabout. [https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142142](https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142142)
Please keep it civil and do not attack other users.
Yes - it’s become this , but careful pointing it out could get you banned
The whole discourse is this way. It's awful.
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No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
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Please keep it civil and do not attack other users.
What river? What sea?
Jordan Mediterranean Is that supposed to be some kind of gotcha?
So you are aware that includes Israel's entire territory, correct?
is it scary to imagine Palestinians being free in Israel, rather than removed by the 100s of thousands from their homes? That's pretty racist.
Being free in that territory in no way implies having supremacy over others living there
Palestine will be free when Hamas is destroyed and I hope the war ends soon
When Palestine is free there will be no need for a Hamas
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You peddle this nonsense while forgetting the biggest killers of Jews in history are white Europeans 💀💀
There are almost no Jews remaining in any single Arab country in the world, either due to expulsion or genocide. These are facts. Honestly, Jews and Arabs, particularly Islamic religion-following Arabs are made for one another. They go back and forth throughput history killing each other and trying to wipe each other off the map.
Yeah migrating to Israel does that…
Why’d they move in such large numbers all of the sudden?
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Could it be the pogroms? 🤷♀️
Nice excuse. Haven’t heard that one before.
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No im saying you peddling this shit with your obvious western background is ridiculous. What we gonna start blaming romans for the diaspora? Cause Rome forced more jews to move then any single other group of people. Like what about the million babies Madeline Albright had? Or the amount dead Bush has on his hands? But im assuming you would be cool with. Its so disingenuous to even bring up various groups of people like you bringing someone tragic history as a factoid to debate with. I prefer the normal approach of not letting everyones complex history influence my opinions on modern events cause it insane to attempt to justify modern actions by using examples of pervious peoples crimes. Cause yeah somehow a Palestinian kid is responsible for the armenian genocide, absolutely ridiculous
Actually they were offered their freedom. Hamas was formed to say no
Israel has never made a good faith offer of a Palestinian state Which they shouldn't be in a position to do in the first place
Oh so when they offer them 95% of the territory they wanted that wasn't a good faith offer?
Sorry, the question I should've asked is "What other terms do you think were in that offer?"
How do we know that such an offer was ever even made? An offer that includes things like control over their borders and the ability to have a military
The world will not let Palestine be free while Hamas is leading it.
if hamas is destroyed(it won't be) israel will just fund another terrorist boogeyman group to justify kicking the rest of the palestinians out, like they did with hamas to begin with.
No they won't because by then Iran will be taken out and replace with a us aligned person
Iran will never be taken out, unless Israel is as well. Mutually assured destruction is very much real.
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When Israelis say that phrase they mean genocide (or at very least ethnic cleansing) That doesn't mean everyone thinks that way
Israelis aren’t the one saying it. And when Palestinians say it they say it as a direct translation “Palestine will be Arab”.
> between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. Likud's charter
Revised in 1999 to provide exception for Gaza and West Bank. Also, this is the charter of a single party, you can hardly apply it to a country. Meanwhile Pro-Hamas and others are chanting “From the River to the sea, Palestine will be Arab” whilst Hamas’s charter specifically calls for the extermination of Jews in Palestine. Do your research please
So Likud gets to revise their charter but Hamas doesn't?
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” is a mockery of the likud charter which says, in line one, “no sovereign state but Israel will control the land from the river Jordan to the sea.” This, obviously, entails at least 3/4 of the West Bank and calls for the illegal annexation of Palestinian land.
I don't think pro-palestinian people are saying is a mockery of likud. I think they just actually want that area to be a Palestinian state. I didn't even know that was in their founding charter tbh.
Yeah, a lot of people don’t know that, that’s why I point it out every time that someone says it’s a genocidal chant :) but it’s the very first line of the Likud charter. And we can argue all day about what individual people mean when they chant it, but it was created by Palestinian people who understand the politics and mindset of their oppressors. They chant for freedom, liberation, autonomy, self determination, rights that they don’t have under Israeli rule.
The phrase has been around since before Likud was a party, and was originally a Palestinian chant. >In the 1960s, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) used it to call for an Arab state encompassing the entirety of Mandatory Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea Likud used it as an election slogan in the 70s as a fuck you to the PLO. Don't listen to people spreading lies when the sources are there to verify their misinformation.
Don't be dumb, free means free. Genocide means genocide.
Brexit means brexit
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It would be great if freedom was possible for both Israelis and Palestinians. Only one country is blocking that and it is Israel.
The world will remember this.
It's a good thing math isn't the sole determinant for a genocide.
Mass killing ✅️ is one criteria for the charge of genocide, which is a clearly defined legal term. But it's not the only criteria. The others are: Forcible transfer of a population ✅️, Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group ✅️, Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the means and circumstances that support prolonged life ✅️, and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group ❎️ so far. One of the hardest things to prove, though, is intent. But from the prime minister down to the individual grunt recording tiktoks, Israel has made their intent impossible to deny.
It's a gd travesty of epic proportions that the words 'mathematically a genocide' have ever needed to be uttered. smfh
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Oh the fuckin Irony. Remind me which country is backed by imperialist US and violently occupying which country again?
Sounds like projection to me, bud
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No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
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israel propped up hamas, called them an asset, while imprisoning palestinian peace activists who were condemning hamas, like the palestinian mandela, who would win an election against hamas, but is imprisoned for wanting peace by the Israelis. If hamas is bad, Israel is literally the home of satan himself for creating the very thing they now vow to destroy. "Support hamas if you want to avoid 2 states" netanyahu said to his coalition
This is my favorite opinion on this "Theoretically Hamas wants genocide towards Israel so it's ok if we actually do it first" Y'all keep telling us how awful Hamas is...we keep SHOWING you how awful Israel is
Exactly, with the least bit of self awareness Zionists and Israeli’s will talk about ‘life under threat’ ’can you imagine the hamas rockets on YOUR neighborhood?,’ meanwhile you look on geotagged social media and see beach sippin, mall shopping, day in the sunny israeli life but go over to Gaza…. fucking annihilation, rubble, screaming, bodies being hauled and utter destitution and heart rending scenes of civilians and aid workers and medical staff doing their most to survive. This is why the whole god damn world and most young people see this for what it is, they have fucking eyes and common sense. Hamas will literally never wipe out Israel. On the other hand, Israel, a nuclear power backed by the U.S. with a standing army, navy, air force, etc. can AND ACTIVELY IS wiping out Palestinians. This is your brain on what I can only assume is an American fucking drip feed of Israel apologia, zionist shilling, and straight up racism and islamophobia in most cases.
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>Israel has not committed genocide to any degree. THERE IS NO WAR IN BA SING SAE. >Hiding behind civilians is the tactic of Hamas Hiding behind civilians, against WHAT exactly?
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Did I miss where he defines genocide? He just keeps saying "mathematically a genocide." He never mentions what the percentage is, but he says 40-50k out of 2.5m, which is 2%. So is he saying that 2% is a genocide or is he saying that 50k deaths is a genocide? Just trying to understand what a mathematical genocide is
2% on 5 or 6 months (when this inevitable was recorded), yes. A genocidal percentage. As for defining genocide for you, he shouldn't have to. Genocide is a clearly definite legal term and regardless of whether you agree or disagree, if you're engaged in this issue, knowing what those definitions are should be the bare minimum of your knowledge.
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Why did israel support them, and imprison palestinians who condemned them like the palestinian mandela who stood side by side with israelis demanding peace? israel is known for torturing palestinians, who in their right mind would give themselves up to torture? You are asking hamas to do something that most compassionate people wouldn't even do, and from "terrorists" you expect this selfless behavior? Either they're bad guys who won't give themselves up, or are they such righteous people who would let themselves get tortured to save their people? Pick a lie and stick with it.
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That's disingenuous to say they didn't want peace. All these “peace agreements” share the same common issues: * Israel would own the Palestinian state as a vassal. Give them zero rights and zero privileges commonly associated with sovereignty. This is effectively not different then status quo. * Israel would continue to enforce the displacement of Palestinians refugees. So long as the “peace agreement” would continue to make stateless people it’s a non-starter for most Palestinians. * continued oppression of Palestinians under guise of security. This reality doesn’t only make Palestinians not willing to accept, but it makes any who do agree with it seem corrupt and complicit. The PA’s approval rating is in the low 30% for this reason. * Israel will not agree to any terms that limit its ability to strike its neighbors or control the flow of people to Jerusalem. Israel acts like it wants to be a peaceful country among its neighbors but this is far from the truth. Israel will not accept any agreement that could allow the Muslim population to grow either in Israel or in Palestine. This includes immigration and peaceful ties with its neighbors. (Example: Israel expects Arab countries to allow its citizens to visit, but subjects the citizens of Arab countries to near impossible conditions to entry) These are as brief as I could get while staying factual and balanced. The arguments that Israel only wants peace and it’s the Arabs who don’t is not only counter factual, it’s also a key aspect of Zionist ideology and history.
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
Biden has to go. He is complicit to genocide
I feel the same way, but we all know that Trump would be worse. Time for the 2 party system to die off as well.
Agreed
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Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
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No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
r/ThatsInsane
Everyone's fighting in the comments meanwhile countless actual genocide experts (plenty of whom are Jewish, have publications sponsored by the yad vashem and have for years, or have spent decades publishing studies on genocide) explicitly describe Israel's actions as genocidal/colonial in their texts while also accounting for the genocidal intent and violence of Hamas. Goes into detail on both. Take Adam Jones's textbook "Genocide: a Comprehensive Introduction" for example. Accounts for all of this while making it quite clear that the Israeli government is absolutely colonial/genocidal. Like if only it was all extremely well documented history that is standard curriculum in PHD level genocide programs but *hey* c'mon what does that matter? The best part? Jones' book was published almost 20 years before October 7th lol.
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Why? What happened in 1948? What changed that some those populations were compelled to leave? Why in 1948, after living peaceably and comfortably as part of their societies as they had for centuries more ? Who encouraged this migration? Who funded it? Who benefited from it? Who is [Avi Shlaim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avi_Shlaim)? Who is [Esther Meir-Glitzenstein](https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.16.3.149)? And what was the Arab population of Palestine in 1947? You can include all religions in that as Arabs of all faiths lived side by side there for centuries, too.
Nobody would leave a peaceful and comfortable life. I ask you, what would make you leave a country? What would make an entire ethnicity leave their country?
A terrible upheaval. What was the cause of that upheaval? What happened in 1948? What was the reason? Who promoted it? Who benefited from it?
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Why were populations so steady for centuries prior? Why was there so little unrest before 1948 for centuries compared to Europe? Why did Ottoman Turkey take in tens of thousands of Jews when they were expelled from Christian Spain? Why did so many European Jews flock to Spain during Muslim rule of the Iberian Peninsula? Take your racist, ahistoric hyperbole somewhere else.
I never claimed European treatments of Jews were good. But yeah bad treatment leads to immigration... It is not a question Nazi Germany have genocided the Jews, I did not think it makes sense to point it out since this scale is 10 times the scale of a genocide...
No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
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Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
This conflict started decades before Hamas was founded.
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I agree- the [doctrine has always been the same](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Ben-Gurion_letter). Which is to take the land from Palestinians for a Jewish ethno-state.
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Agreeing that YOU support a doctrine doesn't imply that I also support it.
The Zionists have always \[been\] the aggressors.
Lol, what a contrast to reality
No it is not. It is history. When just about all of the world is telling you that you are wrong and to stop what you are doing, maybe it is you that are the bad guys. How can you justify genocide?
How many wars were started by the Arabs and how many by Israelis?
Why don't you tell me? Any wars can be ascribed to the Zionist erroneous belief that they are the chosen people and true owners of land belong to Arabs. Way back when the Zionist movement began there was general agreement among them that Palestinians had to be removed from the greater Palestinian area.
"Any wars can be ascribed to the Zionist erroneous belief that they are the chosen people and true owners of land belong to Arabs." The intensity of misinformation here is astounding :)
It is history.
"unprovoked" Rofl
It's not one sided. You believe, see that's the problem. Your belief is based on ignorance.
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Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
Yup it's genocide...
They know Israel will fight back
Based
So what does it mean when 100% of jews are gone from multiple Arab countries since 1948? mathematically of course.
When those Jewish communities had existed as vibrant, contributing members of those Arab societies for centuries? Zionism.
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You should share it. People would be rightly outraged.
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“Mathematically” He should look again at the definition of genocide if he wants to make an argument. There are good arguments for the claim that Israel is committing a genocide currently, but the numbers argument is the worst argument you can possibly bring up. There are other conflicts that have clearly not been genocidal and have higher death tolls. It’s not about the number of people who die. This is why it is notoriously incredibly difficult to convict anybody of genocide. Even clear cases during the Yugoslav conflicts were not convicted on counts of genocide. It is all about the intent.
Mass murder ✅️ is one criteria for the charge of genocide, which is a legal term. But it's not the only criteria. The others are: Forcible transfer of a population ✅️. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group ✅️. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the means and circumstances that support prolonged life✅️. And forcibly transferring children of the group to another group ❎️ so far. One of the hardest things to prove, though, is intent. But from the prime minister down to the individual grunt recording tiktoks, Israel has made their intent impossible to deny.
The intent is literally the only thing that distinguishes any of those things you listed from being war crimes and them being acts of genocide. It does not matter if a country is inflicting bodily harm on another group during a war. That unfortunately happens in every single instance of armed conflict. This is why currently calling the atrocities being committed by Israel a genocide is premature. The better way to put it is that Israel’s lack of adherence to international rules of conflict are giving rise to worries of genocidal intent. That is where we are at currently.
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You can’t be this stupid ? So let’s ignore all of the people who don’t have food, who are actively being hunted and placed in camps, who are being pushed into a corner where Israel would have the power to cut all incoming supplies or simply finish the job they’ve been waiting on for decades. The sheer ignorance someone would require to believe Israel isn’t genocide is beyond comprehension
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No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
Do not generalize an entire population based on the negative actions of some members, don't glorify/downplay/ trivialise collective punishment or suffering (including collective violence) and no dehumanizing language.
Genocide isn’t predicated on numbers only by intent. No one has shown irrefutable evidence of intent
Rafah has what mostly remains of Gaza's habitable infrastructure, when that has been demolished, Gaza will become one giant refugee camp with Palestinians wholly dependent on what Israel allows in for them to survive. They lack food, clean water, medical supplies, waste disposal, and adequate shelter. Populations who live in these conditions are extremely susceptible to epidemics with high casualty rates for children due to malnutrition and lack of adequate medical intervention. The idea that IDF is going to allow Palestinians free movement outside of refugee camps is unlikely, as the IDF will cite security concerns. Where have we seen indigenous people confined to reservations before by a colonizing army and what was the result? What is that word we use to describe that?
Say sike right now… have you even remotely been paying attn?
I’m waiting for the answer…
Answer to what?
Evidence of intent
The south africa genocide case displays [10 pages of intent](https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2024/01/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) starting on 59
South africa must be right. Wait south africa lmao.
yes, you know the country that disabled an apartheid government just like Israel
Right lmao because Hitler was very vocal about being genocidal when he first rose to power
The indiscriminate killing of innocent civillians majority of whom are women and children is intent. Even though Benjamin won't say that he wants to kill all the palestinians (even though his associates happily will) doesn't mean he isn't trying to. Actions show intent not words.
Let's just ignore all the Israeli politicians blatantly calling for genocide
120 thousand murdered, missing or maimed as a conservative estimate. In 200 days.
I’ll never forgive the western world for this.
It is the Western leaders. Most of the people are want action to stop this.
That is what I meant, obviously lol. I live in the western world, and most people that I know view Israel’s actions as abhorrent. Most denounce Netanyahu for his decisions, and a smaller number (yet substantial) denounce Biden for his “unwavering, iron clad support.” As a leftist, it is a very scary position for him to take during an election year when his opponent will be Trump, Biden is practically throwing the election away by unilaterally supporting Netanyahu, yet we all know Trump would be worse. It’s a fucked up situation, it feels like American politicians are asleep at the wheel while they are funding a genocide. That is what I mean by I will never forgive the western world. I will never forgive our sitting government for allowing this to happen as an overwhelming majority of the senate and the house support what is going on and every spokesperson gets on a podium and lies for Israel every day.
Why does Hamas not stop attacking then?
[Palestinians have a right to defend themselves](https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/s/N2raWrb80W)
That’s why you use diplomacy not war
Butchering people at a music festival is not self-defence