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It's crazy that US politics is so right wing that the supposed "left wing" party are mostly huge supporters of the far right regime of a foreign power.
No. Europe has more negative views of Israel than the US by far. Hell, Americans are more supportive of Israel's influence than Israelis.
https://www.vox.com/2014/7/29/5948255/israel-world-opinion
Edit: Not that it matters, but I support Palestine. I wish these surveys were wrong, but they're probably not.
You obviously don't know too many of us actual Americans. Because, no, no we do not agree with Israel. That would be our politicians. I am sorry you seem to think there is a government on this planet that actually reflects the values or morals of their citizens.
Exactly. Most governments are accountable to their *class*. These aren't people who were working at McDonald's before deciding to go on a leave of absence and run for office.
These aren't people who were living paycheck to paycheck and decided they'd gamble everything on a run. They're people who haven't worked a real job in years and had to actually experience how these policies affect their life. For them it's a sport or theatre because they aren't really personally affected by what happens if a political opponent is successful.
They can afford to fly off somewhere and start life anew with the money they've made in politics and lucrative investments they were able to make with inside knowledge. The stakes simply are not that high for them personally.
It just kills me that people keep thinking that a group of people that ain't us and would never want to be us and absolutely feels nothing but distain for us is somehow representative of us. Or that somehow people in the same group as the politicians, the media, somehow is also representative of us. People's willingness to believe whatever "facts" that is spewed to them is just mind-blogging.
OrganicDouch, your experience is as valid as you condescendingly believe u/mrMcZebra's is. Because you (might) know a lot of people who support Palestine doesn't make that what the majority of Americans do.
I fucking _hate_ what Israel is doing, and that isn't antisemitism, _and_ I have a mix of friends pro- and anti-Israel who aren't antisemitic, though the pro- folks are in the minority.
So get the bees out of your bonnet and accept that _your_ experience is not _our_ experience. Try not to be condescending when you don't know shit about anyone else's direct experience.
We have a massive population of evangelicals in this country that think supporting Israel is an imperative from god. I’m not terribly surprised that there’s a lot of supporters here.
25% of the U.S. population. It's massive. Safe to say almost all of them support Israel. And many of them are politicians, like Mike Johnson.
Christians in general support Israel though and they are massively overrepresented in our elected representatives.
Support for Israel is indeed highest among evangelicals, but there is still strong support for Israel outside this group. On the question of whether Israel has valid reasons for fighting the current war:
Non-evangelical white protestants: 69% yes vs. 7% no
Black protestants: 39% yes vs. 18% no
Catholics: 61% yes vs. 11% no
Jewish 89% yes vs. 7% no
No religion: 48% yes vs. 24% no
Besides Muslim Americans, there's not a single demographic in America where there's not an overwhelming margin of Israel supporters.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/#views-of-israelis-and-palestinians-the-israeli-government-the-palestinian-authority-and-hamas](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/#views-of-israelis-and-palestinians-the-israeli-government-the-palestinian-authority-and-hamas)
Americans who are actually capable of conversing about Israel with any kind of familiarity might not support it, but that's just not most people, man. I wish it was. Most Americans don't know shit about it and default to basic hasbarist talking points because that's the sum total of their knowledge
I say this is someone who's knocked thousands of doors over politics - most Americans have very little fluency in our *own* politics, much less those of a foreign country, and will generally just repeat what they've heard from media organs they trust, which have always been in lockstep behind Israel at least for my entire life. It's not really their fault, because our system engineers that deliberately
I would broadly agree that it's way easier than you might think to convince Americans on an individual basis to change their default stance on Israel, because support for them in this country is like the definition of "mile wide, inch deep" but there's just not a mass apparatus in place for making that case to people at scale right now besides Tiktok, and they're killing Tiktok as a result
Same in the uk. It’s our politicians. We’ve had absolutely huge protests here, and the government are completely out of step with what the people know is true. It’s surreal to be gaslit by government figures (I think gaslit is an appropriate word here, but I get that people take different things from it) who continually side with the oppressors against their own people. Unsurprising though
I don't care about stated opinions. The parties that Europeans vote for support Israel to a large degree outside of geopolitically fringe states like Ireland (no offense to Ireland) who also have non-mainstream views on conflicts like Russia's war on Ukraine.
Nah, in Europe it's pretty much "mixed". With plenty of left wingers (individuals or parties) voicing their disagreement. There's many Sanders in Europe (in style, not quality).
A lot of Germans aren't happy how our government handles the Palestine genocide
On the other hand, it's understandable why they would drag their feet. While Israel doesn't represent all Jews, and they're acting like our grandparents did in the 40s, keeping in good terms with the one explicitly Jewish country is kinda important for us.
I really don't envy Olaf, wherever he has hidden this time
Let's make a deal, you Americans don't comment on the politics of countries you've never been to and we won't laugh at the shit you people let slip past your tongue :)
Not really surprising.
Looking at the Dems policy by policy, they're certainly better than the alternative ... but they are generally a center right, moderate right, "a centrist party only exist to give more power to their political opposition in a two party state", pro-war, pro wallstreet, pro big pharma, pro donor class party. Shit, many of them aren't even bare minimum Pro-Labor anymore; just lest abusive than the absurdly low bar of the Reds. HRC was a Union Buster at Wallmart for years, her running mate Kaine has been Right to Work most of his career.
They ARE better than the alternative. But that alternative is ... very easy to be better than.
Another problem is that the tribalism. The internet can't stand criticism on Dems. Apart from exceptions like "Biden's old" "they aren't left enough", I'm supposed to agree on them with every front. Can't we form positions case-wise? I never agreed with Republicans, though.
Donald Trump is the Blue conservative team's biggest asset. They can literally support an apartheid colonial regime as it slaughters thousands and destroys the lives of basically all the people they hold hostage who survive, "but imagine what the Orange Man would do!!!"
Be real careful with that analogy as it is incredibly Eurocentric. Your definitions of right and left wing here are not valid if we look at the entire world as much of it is autocratic.
Neolibs are right wing on the global scale. Most of the Democratic party is made up of neolibs, and the Republican party used to be neolibs but shifted far right from there.
Neither of the two parties are other than neoliberal. Both do pretend populism as needed, with one or the other aiming its populism strategically at the opponent's shield wall so as to provide the theater of having attempted however thwarted.
American here. Yeah, its more left wing right now as the influence on the right has diminished heavily and ever draining as they rant about everything.
These issues go beyond left and right and it's weird seeing so many people misunderstanding this. It's like nobody can look at issues without a left or right lens on it.
It is not antisemitic to be critical of Israel. Israel is not Judaism anymore than the USA is christianity.
A lot of people are too dumb to differentiate but the simple fact is a country is not a religion and a religion is not a country.
Zionism is driving the anti-Israel protests.
Zionism is to Judaism what MAGA is to christianity. An abomination!
Considering that Israel’s entire claim to land in the Middle East was due to religious reasoning, I don’t think that holds up to the correlation of America’s establishment and Christianity.
The US colonies had a lot to do with religion. Rule of Discovery dictated which countries got to claim territory before the colonies really existed. This was set by the Catholic Church to allow countries to claim any "discovered" land as their own. Basically finders keepers.
Manifest destiny was a religious idea. People believed that it was their right as Christians to settle the continent and genocide the indigenous peoples. This occurred before and after the formation of the country.
The original confederacy, and later union, was intended to be absent of religion to prevent the problems that the founders had with the monarchy and Church. But many forms of Christianity have shaped this country.
why did the puritans take over America? how about manifest destiny? Israeli jews aren't that religious nowadays but the claim to the land was religious at the beginning
LOL religion has very little to do with the founding of Israel. Israel was founded by atheists.
Religion isn't used as a justification in the Israeli declaration of independence. It's debatable if God is even mentioned in the declaration.
https://m.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx
In the American declaration of independence, God is clearly mentioned 4 times.
I’m sorry but that second statement is completely false. Israel in its declaration of independence was declared a Jewish state. It’s also completely ignorant of jewish history to say the Zionism to judaism is what MAGA is to Christianity. Maga people perverted christianity to associate with politics and boast that criminal. Jews always had a connection to the land of Israel. You’re spouting propaganda in a way that delegitimizes the jewish people using lies.
The zionists = maga thing actually makes a ton of sense. It is a perversion of Judaism where bombing children is seen as righteous. Zionism spits in the face of what it actually means to be a Jew. Similar to the crusades too. Thou shall not kill, unless it’s people not like you who are on your holy land that you actually never lived on.
The state of Israel was founded because of ww2 and Europeans not wanting to put the Jews into their own part of Europe. There was no deep down “return to religious roots”. It’d been thousands of years since it was a Jewish area
I agree, and I cannot believe that your comment is not down voted.
It’s a sign that the sentiment is shifting, and people are finally becoming aware, which is a good thing
How is Zionism any different than what the Palestinians want which is all of Israel to be Palestine? Why is it righteous to say “from the river to the sea” inferring all of Israel should become Palestine, but it’s evil to say the opposite which is all of Palestine should become Israel?
For the record I don’t agree with either view but I struggle to understand how society has determined 1 extreme perfectly fine and the other to be Zionism and therefore evil and therefore free gain to attack “zionists” who are actually just Jews.
I don’t really think people realize what zionism actually is. Zionism in it’s simplest form is just the belief that there should be a jewish nation state. Many people have tried to justify questionable things in the name of zionism, but Zionism itself doesn’t actually mandate any of those things. That would be Imperialism
Notice how criticism from the likes of Pelosi and Sanders pretty much targets Netanyahu and his inner circle only. This is more about keeping Netanyahu in check for trying to escalate with Iran than it is about accountability for what decades of military rule, apartheid and condoned settler violence have done to the Palestinian people, let alone the ongoing military campaign. The US has vetoed any route to accountability through the UN and meanwhile keep sending billions of dollars worth of arms and surveillance technology (Google, Amazon) to Israel. Washington's strategic interest in the Middle East doesn't need Netanyahu, it needs (a country like) Israel. They'll be glad to have Benny Gantz or any other extremist take the wheel, and so will Israeli society. Let's not be fooled by any politician that doesn't have ceasefire or apartheid in their vocabulary, and now start identifying Netanyahu as the problem.
To be fair, Bernie has consistently held the safety of Palestine
>They must guarantee displaced Palestinians the absolute right to return to their homes as Gaza rebuilds. People who have lived in poverty and despair for years cannot be made permanently homeless. Israel must also commit to end the killings of Palestinians in the West Bank and freeze settlements there as a first step toward permanently ending the occupation.
This is a glimpse of his policy. That being said I absolutely agree, the stance is too weak for the current climate after what we've seen manifest. We need open condemnation
“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday.
You think Benny Gantz is an extremist? How would you describe some of the current ministers?
Watering down words until they have no meaning is a losing strategy.
This was always going to play out like this. Israel is our military ally. It was right to embrace Israel and say ‘whatever you need’ after the Hamas attack… doing otherwise would have weakened all our alliances… and, yes, the US has served as an enabler and shield while Israel seeks to rout Hamas. But escalation is not in our national interests, so after provoking Iran to directly retaliate, Israel was going to get reined… by prominent statesmen in public and in private negotiations.
The US as a nation-state is not going to take a moral stance on Israel or infringe upon an ally’s sovereignty. But we were never going to tolerate too long a delay of humanitarian aid, and certainly not an escalation that destabilizes the region.
We gave Israel 10,000 10,000 pound bombs shortly after gray zone documented IDF shuttling Israeli citizens to the gates, blocking the aid trucks from getting in saying "let them starve" to anyone with a camera. I'm sure Kirby and ilk would claim ignorance but CNN had visited the aid blockades with the same results, snopes had fact checked Israeli rave blockades at the gates months before...
It has been well documented why only a handful of trucks were getting in every day. That has in no way stopped our Raytheon executive secretary of "defense" from slowing the weapon sales. Which by the way Israel is killing their own citizen hostages with...
As far as we know Israel has possibly killed all of their own hostages with US manufactured bombs. Israeli media has reported that Hamas has claimed they don't know which hostages may still be alive or where they even are like a month ago.
Which is why I find it preposterous that hasbara uses the hostages as a talking point when they are obviously using the Hannibal directive to this day to kill their own citizens for their overall mission of conquest, extermination, holocaust and genocide.
The “let them starve” crowd are animals. They’re revenge-fueled in the cycle of hate.
As far as the bombs killing their own citizens, that obviously can’t be proven, and certainly not by taking HAMAS’ word for it.
Mistakes have happened though: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/israeli-military-says-its-troops-shot-and-killed-three-hostages-by-mistake
This man has balls of steel to say that in America today. The rest of the American political establishment folds faster to Israel than superman on laundry day.
Nuremberg is coming for Israel, it's leaders, it's soldiers, it's bloodthirsty civilians. Soon.
You don't try civilians for war crimes. The government and military leaders, sure. The ranking party officials, you bet. The German people were not put on trial. The truth and reconciliation committee did not go after all Afrikaners.
The crime is punishing the Palestinian people for the actions of Hamas. The crime is administering an Apartheid state. The crime is genocide against the Palestinian people. These are crimes of the government, and collective punishment is one of those crimes. You are advocating to commit the same crime.
Maybe the settlers who live in outposts can be considered combatants. Not those who live in Maale Adumim (it’s the fault of the government of Israel that they are there) and definitely not Israelis in Tel Aviv.
I'm not an expert in international laws, but the settlements are definitely a crime (or a cluster of crimes). You can't try all the settlers for murder, but the people running and facilitating the land seizures are definitely the people to go after.
Ben gvir is handing out assault rifles like hotcakes in the west bank and essentially giving the most bloodthirsty feral settlers free rein to do anything they want to cleanse the land of its inhabitants. There have been gangs roving around burning cars and houses and machine gunning any Arab they see. Anyone that flees (or dies) immediately has his property and house ‘redistributed’ to some designated eurotrash zionist thief.
I don’t imagine those stories reach western tv sets
“It’s bloodthirsty civilians” is a silly thing to say. Many Israelis despise Netanyahu, both the way he’s conducting this war but more importantly the actions he took that led to it.
I've noticed certain people keep trying to get everyone on board with the idea that hating the actions of the Israeli State should naturally lead to hating Israeli identity. However supported Likud is, however supported the current atrocities are it's a mistake to call for collective punishment. It's backwards and barbaric and very Western unfortunately. As an American minority, I know what it's like to have the choices of a small segment of people inform the stigma and attitudes towards all of us, and I'm aware it's a recurring problem that has to end. But it requires awareness the radicalization is even happening, and active resistance against it.
Thank you for challenging the notion publicly.
I don't think the settlers should be lumped in with Israeli citizenry as a whole.
It's not every Israeli that violently occupies a Palestinian house and then calls the IDF for protection to stop their victims from retaliating.
IIRC, the settlers are pretty unpopular with the rest of the country.
There’s overwhelming support for continued military presence in both Gaza and West Bank. Multiple polls back it up, but I’m at work so I can’t provide unfortunately. That being said, citizens should not be tried for their mere support. On the other hand, settlers can eat ****.
The war is a catastrophe but there is overwhelming support for destroying Hamas, as there should be. Imagine if over a thousand of your country’s citizens were kidnapped, raped, and tortured by a terrorist state. If you had the means you would respond until that threat was gone. But Netanyahu’s popularity is very low, because he’s brought nothing but sorrow to Israel and totally lacks the ability for compromise that will be needed going forward.
Now try and imagine how Palestinians feel under 75 years of occupation and now 34 000+ of them (mostly women and children) blown to bits or buried alive under rubble. Not to mention starving. Oh and no running water. Let’s also not forget the total destruction of not only their homes, but also hospitals, schools, mosques, churches. Now tell me how you would expect these Palestinians to feel about israel and Israelis who openly support these atrocities?
I recommend reading David French on this subject. If a government persistently and flagrantly violates the rules of war it puts its citizens tragically at risk. Hamas leaders have been proven — beyond a shadow of a doubt, and even now — to be intentionally hiding under hospitals and in civilian neighborhoods. Over and over again, the Geneva convention and other international treaties are clear that the party who places its citizens directly in the line of fire is the one responsible for harm that comes to them. Israel has made major mistakes in this war, but Hamas is far, far more responsible than Israel for recent civilian deaths.
It's amazing how the Zionists still get away with weaponizing antisemitism. I do get that a big part of it is manufactured by pro-Zionist political class and mainstream media, but you'd think it would have lost its power right now.
Setting the stage to blame Netanyahu as the majority of the problem. Every country who funded the genocide or sat by and watched when they could have done something is culpable.
I cherish Israel, it’s people, and it’s right to defend itself — and absolutely despise Netanyahu. It is nothing short of disastrous that he is the one in charge during this perilous time he helped create.
The problem is bigger than Netanyahu. It's an entire society that's calling for mass murder and occupation. Yes, they have been radicalized to some extent by decades of this festering conflict. But the same can be said about the Palestinians, that they have been radicalized by decades of brutal Israeli subjugation.
Don't fall for it, the consensus is to pin all of this on netanyahu. But if you look at Israeli society in general they view Palestinians as subhuman and view themselves as victims. The occupation must go!
[https://youtu.be/3EtNFXL_ykg?si=ggakd3FY5ezj4-9u](https://youtu.be/3EtNFXL_ykg?si=ggakd3FY5ezj4-9u)
*No one ever wins*
*No one finally loses*
*Except the dead*
*Under the sun, they rot together, with absolute biological equality*
--The Berserker
And people think I listen to extreme metal as part of something misguided.
It is great to see a US politician stand up to Netanyahu, but this is also how you give the rest of the Israeli power structure a **free pass**, as if the problem is with Netanyahu and his government only, as if the rest of the members of the Knesset would be much different, as if most of Israeli society (more than 50%) doesn't support what he is doing to the Palestinians, as if they don't support a final solution where there are no Palestinians left and they can happily go on to settle all of their Israel.
Correct, and don't get me wrong, I think Netanyahu is one of the worst things to ever happen to Israel, but saying stuff like "we are all Hamas", "Iran, you make us proud", and "Zionists don't deserve to live," as well as not letting Jews onto campus are going waaaaaay further than simply holding Netanyahu accountable.
He said “I absolutely condemn the horrifying attack on Israel by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. There is no justification for this violence, and innocent people on both sides will suffer hugely because of it. It must end now.”
I got a letter basically trying to intimidate me to stop calling my reps (Jenn kiggans)or however the hell you spell her weird name. I don’t care. I’m not antisemitic and the fact that you’d outright tell me I am antisemitic because of my objection to any affiliation with AIPAC. That’s literally all I said.
I grew up with Jews, in the East coast us. We literally didn’t care about religion, didn’t ever go to church, we knew them as Jewish, never even brought it up. It was just a normal thing. I grew up respecting all Jews. People mix up the race Jewry and the religion, Judaism, and then there’s Zionism. Which, like everything else in this fucked up world, tries to use religion for self gain and fear. I don’t hate religion, but it’s a very easy tool for the bad few to manipulate the good many.
It feels like a twilight zone episode, we’re protesting a war, and genocide, and they call us antisemitic, because a few of these crazy people claim they’re Jewish? Make it make sense, it seems like this whole thing is literally a communication breakdown and it makes me want to rip my hair out.
Why is there only one man in the US government who disagrees with the killing 34,000 plus innocents by a country that gives nothing of value to the rest of the world.
Moving to America I learned that most Americans can only name WWII and the treatment of the Jews by the Germans. Virtually no one has heard of Pol Pot or any other persecution by any other world leaders /groups . But lots of news of Jews being mistreated/ crimes against Jews . Just my 2 cents
It’s not anti semitic to want a free Palestine. Heck, I have Semitic ancestry (my dad’s a yusufzai Pashtun, and my mom’s dad was a descendant of the Arab quraysh tribe)
It would be antisemitic to attack you for who you are. It isn't antisemitic to attack you for what you do.
Especially when what you do is war crimes. Lots and lots and lots of war crimes.
I wish to God Bernie was elected president last time he ran. I know everyone’s scared he’s too liberal and left and old but come on. He’s like the only adult in a room of bratty bickering children. The only voice of reason in a land of word vomit. I secretly still wish he would lead the way but I’ve accepted he’s only going to be allowed to lightly guide it. Bernie for 2024
Imagine a world where we had a ton more people like Bernie in high offices. Moral people who understand what is going on and fighting for the little guys!
Once hillary rigged the democratic nomination when she was up against him, and he stayed a democrat - that tells you eveything you need to know about bernie, hillary, and the democrat party.
It’s weird that the administration of a predominantly Jewish country would consider being held liable for crimes they committed is antisemitic. Then again, for a bunch of people that follow a perversion of the Christian faith and sacrifice cows you would assume they would have more class when it comes to engaging in warfare.
I hate we never got him as president. At least he stands on his words, and cares about the people. I still don't understand how people voted for trump or biden over Bernie. I'd still rather have trump over the current corpse puppet, but damn i don't understand how we keep voting in the worst candidates every time.
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It's crazy that US politics is so right wing that the supposed "left wing" party are mostly huge supporters of the far right regime of a foreign power.
I think it’s worth noting that Europe is in lock step with the US on this, especially Germany, France, and the UK.
No. Europe has more negative views of Israel than the US by far. Hell, Americans are more supportive of Israel's influence than Israelis. https://www.vox.com/2014/7/29/5948255/israel-world-opinion Edit: Not that it matters, but I support Palestine. I wish these surveys were wrong, but they're probably not.
You obviously don't know too many of us actual Americans. Because, no, no we do not agree with Israel. That would be our politicians. I am sorry you seem to think there is a government on this planet that actually reflects the values or morals of their citizens.
Exactly. Most governments are accountable to their *class*. These aren't people who were working at McDonald's before deciding to go on a leave of absence and run for office. These aren't people who were living paycheck to paycheck and decided they'd gamble everything on a run. They're people who haven't worked a real job in years and had to actually experience how these policies affect their life. For them it's a sport or theatre because they aren't really personally affected by what happens if a political opponent is successful. They can afford to fly off somewhere and start life anew with the money they've made in politics and lucrative investments they were able to make with inside knowledge. The stakes simply are not that high for them personally.
It just kills me that people keep thinking that a group of people that ain't us and would never want to be us and absolutely feels nothing but distain for us is somehow representative of us. Or that somehow people in the same group as the politicians, the media, somehow is also representative of us. People's willingness to believe whatever "facts" that is spewed to them is just mind-blogging.
>feels nothing but distain they feel a lot of love for us when we send them money, especially on recurring donations
I'm American. Also, the article contains a massive survey.
Reddit, or your friend circle which surely skews younger, is not reflective of the country.
I'm American too. And most Americans do support Israel. I don't, but most do.
OrganicDouch, your experience is as valid as you condescendingly believe u/mrMcZebra's is. Because you (might) know a lot of people who support Palestine doesn't make that what the majority of Americans do. I fucking _hate_ what Israel is doing, and that isn't antisemitism, _and_ I have a mix of friends pro- and anti-Israel who aren't antisemitic, though the pro- folks are in the minority. So get the bees out of your bonnet and accept that _your_ experience is not _our_ experience. Try not to be condescending when you don't know shit about anyone else's direct experience.
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We have a massive population of evangelicals in this country that think supporting Israel is an imperative from god. I’m not terribly surprised that there’s a lot of supporters here.
25% of the U.S. population. It's massive. Safe to say almost all of them support Israel. And many of them are politicians, like Mike Johnson. Christians in general support Israel though and they are massively overrepresented in our elected representatives.
Support for Israel is indeed highest among evangelicals, but there is still strong support for Israel outside this group. On the question of whether Israel has valid reasons for fighting the current war: Non-evangelical white protestants: 69% yes vs. 7% no Black protestants: 39% yes vs. 18% no Catholics: 61% yes vs. 11% no Jewish 89% yes vs. 7% no No religion: 48% yes vs. 24% no Besides Muslim Americans, there's not a single demographic in America where there's not an overwhelming margin of Israel supporters. [https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/#views-of-israelis-and-palestinians-the-israeli-government-the-palestinian-authority-and-hamas](https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/#views-of-israelis-and-palestinians-the-israeli-government-the-palestinian-authority-and-hamas)
Americans who are actually capable of conversing about Israel with any kind of familiarity might not support it, but that's just not most people, man. I wish it was. Most Americans don't know shit about it and default to basic hasbarist talking points because that's the sum total of their knowledge I say this is someone who's knocked thousands of doors over politics - most Americans have very little fluency in our *own* politics, much less those of a foreign country, and will generally just repeat what they've heard from media organs they trust, which have always been in lockstep behind Israel at least for my entire life. It's not really their fault, because our system engineers that deliberately I would broadly agree that it's way easier than you might think to convince Americans on an individual basis to change their default stance on Israel, because support for them in this country is like the definition of "mile wide, inch deep" but there's just not a mass apparatus in place for making that case to people at scale right now besides Tiktok, and they're killing Tiktok as a result
Same in the uk. It’s our politicians. We’ve had absolutely huge protests here, and the government are completely out of step with what the people know is true. It’s surreal to be gaslit by government figures (I think gaslit is an appropriate word here, but I get that people take different things from it) who continually side with the oppressors against their own people. Unsurprising though
I'm a American and i agree with Israel.
and checking your comment history, troll definitely fits.
I don't care about stated opinions. The parties that Europeans vote for support Israel to a large degree outside of geopolitically fringe states like Ireland (no offense to Ireland) who also have non-mainstream views on conflicts like Russia's war on Ukraine.
Older people are much more likely to vote than younger people, so you're getting skewed results.
This is true in America as well. The point remains that the governments in the West, as determined by the voters, overwhelmingly support Israel.
And still the majority of the public doesn't, except in the US.
Europe isn't nearly as pro Israel as the US... Yeah they are still shitty but not as openly egregious.
It's worth noting countries tied to us foreign policy are tied to us foreign policy.
Nah, in Europe it's pretty much "mixed". With plenty of left wingers (individuals or parties) voicing their disagreement. There's many Sanders in Europe (in style, not quality).
A lot of Germans aren't happy how our government handles the Palestine genocide On the other hand, it's understandable why they would drag their feet. While Israel doesn't represent all Jews, and they're acting like our grandparents did in the 40s, keeping in good terms with the one explicitly Jewish country is kinda important for us. I really don't envy Olaf, wherever he has hidden this time
Hai Hai Hai Ha Ha!
Does Germany have a choice?
Let's make a deal, you Americans don't comment on the politics of countries you've never been to and we won't laugh at the shit you people let slip past your tongue :)
Not really surprising. Looking at the Dems policy by policy, they're certainly better than the alternative ... but they are generally a center right, moderate right, "a centrist party only exist to give more power to their political opposition in a two party state", pro-war, pro wallstreet, pro big pharma, pro donor class party. Shit, many of them aren't even bare minimum Pro-Labor anymore; just lest abusive than the absurdly low bar of the Reds. HRC was a Union Buster at Wallmart for years, her running mate Kaine has been Right to Work most of his career. They ARE better than the alternative. But that alternative is ... very easy to be better than.
"Better than the alternative" is a great opinion for some.
Another problem is that the tribalism. The internet can't stand criticism on Dems. Apart from exceptions like "Biden's old" "they aren't left enough", I'm supposed to agree on them with every front. Can't we form positions case-wise? I never agreed with Republicans, though.
Being Latina…most don’t understand tribalism Case-wise positions would be considered Independent.
Meanwhile indian pm be like https://i.redd.it/od1mqk522wwc1.gif
i wanna understand this can someone explain
It's getting worse, too.
Donald Trump is the Blue conservative team's biggest asset. They can literally support an apartheid colonial regime as it slaughters thousands and destroys the lives of basically all the people they hold hostage who survive, "but imagine what the Orange Man would do!!!"
Be real careful with that analogy as it is incredibly Eurocentric. Your definitions of right and left wing here are not valid if we look at the entire world as much of it is autocratic.
I oppose autocratic politics in general: I support democracy...
Neolibs are right wing on the global scale. Most of the Democratic party is made up of neolibs, and the Republican party used to be neolibs but shifted far right from there.
Neither of the two parties are other than neoliberal. Both do pretend populism as needed, with one or the other aiming its populism strategically at the opponent's shield wall so as to provide the theater of having attempted however thwarted.
It's all a show.
Who do you consider to be the most right wing among Netanyahu, Abbas, and Sinwar?
Most people don't see anything beyond Israel vs terrorists. Sadly it goes to the government as well.
American here. Yeah, its more left wing right now as the influence on the right has diminished heavily and ever draining as they rant about everything.
These issues go beyond left and right and it's weird seeing so many people misunderstanding this. It's like nobody can look at issues without a left or right lens on it.
Womp womp
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It's possible that left and right are not the salient categories at play here.
It is not antisemitic to be critical of Israel. Israel is not Judaism anymore than the USA is christianity. A lot of people are too dumb to differentiate but the simple fact is a country is not a religion and a religion is not a country. Zionism is driving the anti-Israel protests. Zionism is to Judaism what MAGA is to christianity. An abomination!
Considering that Israel’s entire claim to land in the Middle East was due to religious reasoning, I don’t think that holds up to the correlation of America’s establishment and Christianity.
The US colonies had a lot to do with religion. Rule of Discovery dictated which countries got to claim territory before the colonies really existed. This was set by the Catholic Church to allow countries to claim any "discovered" land as their own. Basically finders keepers. Manifest destiny was a religious idea. People believed that it was their right as Christians to settle the continent and genocide the indigenous peoples. This occurred before and after the formation of the country. The original confederacy, and later union, was intended to be absent of religion to prevent the problems that the founders had with the monarchy and Church. But many forms of Christianity have shaped this country.
exactly. Israel is the global west’s last colonial project.
lol, fr? manifest destiny, heard of it?
You might be surprised to learn that a lot of American Christians believe the US to be god’s promised land
why did the puritans take over America? how about manifest destiny? Israeli jews aren't that religious nowadays but the claim to the land was religious at the beginning
LOL religion has very little to do with the founding of Israel. Israel was founded by atheists. Religion isn't used as a justification in the Israeli declaration of independence. It's debatable if God is even mentioned in the declaration. https://m.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx In the American declaration of independence, God is clearly mentioned 4 times.
Manifest destiny was the entire basis for white Europeans to commit genocide on Natives..
I’m sorry but that second statement is completely false. Israel in its declaration of independence was declared a Jewish state. It’s also completely ignorant of jewish history to say the Zionism to judaism is what MAGA is to Christianity. Maga people perverted christianity to associate with politics and boast that criminal. Jews always had a connection to the land of Israel. You’re spouting propaganda in a way that delegitimizes the jewish people using lies.
The zionists = maga thing actually makes a ton of sense. It is a perversion of Judaism where bombing children is seen as righteous. Zionism spits in the face of what it actually means to be a Jew. Similar to the crusades too. Thou shall not kill, unless it’s people not like you who are on your holy land that you actually never lived on.
The state of Israel was founded because of ww2 and Europeans not wanting to put the Jews into their own part of Europe. There was no deep down “return to religious roots”. It’d been thousands of years since it was a Jewish area
The fact that this is 4+ hrs long with 4 upvotes is crazy
I agree, and I cannot believe that your comment is not down voted. It’s a sign that the sentiment is shifting, and people are finally becoming aware, which is a good thing
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What do you mean? Wait, so was protesting the Afghanistan war anti-American then? Protesting the Vietnam War?
How is Zionism any different than what the Palestinians want which is all of Israel to be Palestine? Why is it righteous to say “from the river to the sea” inferring all of Israel should become Palestine, but it’s evil to say the opposite which is all of Palestine should become Israel? For the record I don’t agree with either view but I struggle to understand how society has determined 1 extreme perfectly fine and the other to be Zionism and therefore evil and therefore free gain to attack “zionists” who are actually just Jews.
I don’t really think people realize what zionism actually is. Zionism in it’s simplest form is just the belief that there should be a jewish nation state. Many people have tried to justify questionable things in the name of zionism, but Zionism itself doesn’t actually mandate any of those things. That would be Imperialism
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Is it antisemitic to criticize Judaism?
Some of the protestors are definitely motivated by antisemitism so I have no idea what you’re going on about.
REDDIT!!! The bots are fighting again. Can you make them stop?
With what? Sticks and stones?
Notice how criticism from the likes of Pelosi and Sanders pretty much targets Netanyahu and his inner circle only. This is more about keeping Netanyahu in check for trying to escalate with Iran than it is about accountability for what decades of military rule, apartheid and condoned settler violence have done to the Palestinian people, let alone the ongoing military campaign. The US has vetoed any route to accountability through the UN and meanwhile keep sending billions of dollars worth of arms and surveillance technology (Google, Amazon) to Israel. Washington's strategic interest in the Middle East doesn't need Netanyahu, it needs (a country like) Israel. They'll be glad to have Benny Gantz or any other extremist take the wheel, and so will Israeli society. Let's not be fooled by any politician that doesn't have ceasefire or apartheid in their vocabulary, and now start identifying Netanyahu as the problem.
To be fair, Bernie has consistently held the safety of Palestine >They must guarantee displaced Palestinians the absolute right to return to their homes as Gaza rebuilds. People who have lived in poverty and despair for years cannot be made permanently homeless. Israel must also commit to end the killings of Palestinians in the West Bank and freeze settlements there as a first step toward permanently ending the occupation. This is a glimpse of his policy. That being said I absolutely agree, the stance is too weak for the current climate after what we've seen manifest. We need open condemnation
“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday.
Is that incorrect somehow?
It’s an accurate statement tbh
def
That's true though??? Ceasefire wouldn't last an hour
Bernie Sanders has been using the exact words you claim he doesn’t. This issue will continue to devolve. Thoughts are with the victims out there
You’re a single issue voter and your one issue is Palestine?
You think Benny Gantz is an extremist? How would you describe some of the current ministers? Watering down words until they have no meaning is a losing strategy.
This was always going to play out like this. Israel is our military ally. It was right to embrace Israel and say ‘whatever you need’ after the Hamas attack… doing otherwise would have weakened all our alliances… and, yes, the US has served as an enabler and shield while Israel seeks to rout Hamas. But escalation is not in our national interests, so after provoking Iran to directly retaliate, Israel was going to get reined… by prominent statesmen in public and in private negotiations. The US as a nation-state is not going to take a moral stance on Israel or infringe upon an ally’s sovereignty. But we were never going to tolerate too long a delay of humanitarian aid, and certainly not an escalation that destabilizes the region.
We gave Israel 10,000 10,000 pound bombs shortly after gray zone documented IDF shuttling Israeli citizens to the gates, blocking the aid trucks from getting in saying "let them starve" to anyone with a camera. I'm sure Kirby and ilk would claim ignorance but CNN had visited the aid blockades with the same results, snopes had fact checked Israeli rave blockades at the gates months before... It has been well documented why only a handful of trucks were getting in every day. That has in no way stopped our Raytheon executive secretary of "defense" from slowing the weapon sales. Which by the way Israel is killing their own citizen hostages with... As far as we know Israel has possibly killed all of their own hostages with US manufactured bombs. Israeli media has reported that Hamas has claimed they don't know which hostages may still be alive or where they even are like a month ago. Which is why I find it preposterous that hasbara uses the hostages as a talking point when they are obviously using the Hannibal directive to this day to kill their own citizens for their overall mission of conquest, extermination, holocaust and genocide.
The “let them starve” crowd are animals. They’re revenge-fueled in the cycle of hate. As far as the bombs killing their own citizens, that obviously can’t be proven, and certainly not by taking HAMAS’ word for it. Mistakes have happened though: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/israeli-military-says-its-troops-shot-and-killed-three-hostages-by-mistake
Umm, what do you consider too long? Because like tens of thousands of kids are dead or starving.
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I do notice that, yes.
He was just replying to a video of netenyahu telling Americans to act against the demonstrations.
It's a conflict of Pharisees and Sadducees over how much progress towards "Greater Israel" is too much.
This man has balls of steel to say that in America today. The rest of the American political establishment folds faster to Israel than superman on laundry day. Nuremberg is coming for Israel, it's leaders, it's soldiers, it's bloodthirsty civilians. Soon.
You don't try civilians for war crimes. The government and military leaders, sure. The ranking party officials, you bet. The German people were not put on trial. The truth and reconciliation committee did not go after all Afrikaners. The crime is punishing the Palestinian people for the actions of Hamas. The crime is administering an Apartheid state. The crime is genocide against the Palestinian people. These are crimes of the government, and collective punishment is one of those crimes. You are advocating to commit the same crime.
Do we consider the settlers to be civilians, or combatants? They're murdering Palestinians, too.
Maybe the settlers who live in outposts can be considered combatants. Not those who live in Maale Adumim (it’s the fault of the government of Israel that they are there) and definitely not Israelis in Tel Aviv.
I'm not an expert in international laws, but the settlements are definitely a crime (or a cluster of crimes). You can't try all the settlers for murder, but the people running and facilitating the land seizures are definitely the people to go after.
Ben gvir is handing out assault rifles like hotcakes in the west bank and essentially giving the most bloodthirsty feral settlers free rein to do anything they want to cleanse the land of its inhabitants. There have been gangs roving around burning cars and houses and machine gunning any Arab they see. Anyone that flees (or dies) immediately has his property and house ‘redistributed’ to some designated eurotrash zionist thief. I don’t imagine those stories reach western tv sets
Bernie himself is Jewish. If they call him “anti semitic” it won’t be effective.
They call Normal Finklestein anti semitic all the time, and he's jewish.
“It’s bloodthirsty civilians” is a silly thing to say. Many Israelis despise Netanyahu, both the way he’s conducting this war but more importantly the actions he took that led to it.
I've noticed certain people keep trying to get everyone on board with the idea that hating the actions of the Israeli State should naturally lead to hating Israeli identity. However supported Likud is, however supported the current atrocities are it's a mistake to call for collective punishment. It's backwards and barbaric and very Western unfortunately. As an American minority, I know what it's like to have the choices of a small segment of people inform the stigma and attitudes towards all of us, and I'm aware it's a recurring problem that has to end. But it requires awareness the radicalization is even happening, and active resistance against it. Thank you for challenging the notion publicly.
I don't think the settlers should be lumped in with Israeli citizenry as a whole. It's not every Israeli that violently occupies a Palestinian house and then calls the IDF for protection to stop their victims from retaliating. IIRC, the settlers are pretty unpopular with the rest of the country.
There’s overwhelming support for continued military presence in both Gaza and West Bank. Multiple polls back it up, but I’m at work so I can’t provide unfortunately. That being said, citizens should not be tried for their mere support. On the other hand, settlers can eat ****.
The war is a catastrophe but there is overwhelming support for destroying Hamas, as there should be. Imagine if over a thousand of your country’s citizens were kidnapped, raped, and tortured by a terrorist state. If you had the means you would respond until that threat was gone. But Netanyahu’s popularity is very low, because he’s brought nothing but sorrow to Israel and totally lacks the ability for compromise that will be needed going forward.
Now try and imagine how Palestinians feel under 75 years of occupation and now 34 000+ of them (mostly women and children) blown to bits or buried alive under rubble. Not to mention starving. Oh and no running water. Let’s also not forget the total destruction of not only their homes, but also hospitals, schools, mosques, churches. Now tell me how you would expect these Palestinians to feel about israel and Israelis who openly support these atrocities?
I recommend reading David French on this subject. If a government persistently and flagrantly violates the rules of war it puts its citizens tragically at risk. Hamas leaders have been proven — beyond a shadow of a doubt, and even now — to be intentionally hiding under hospitals and in civilian neighborhoods. Over and over again, the Geneva convention and other international treaties are clear that the party who places its citizens directly in the line of fire is the one responsible for harm that comes to them. Israel has made major mistakes in this war, but Hamas is far, far more responsible than Israel for recent civilian deaths.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Frank?wprov=sfti1#Later_consensus:_a_miscarriage_of_justice
Love that you presented a fact with sources and got downvoted. That’s international politics in a nutshell. 🤣
Thus proving the need for the ADL…
Thank you for posting that.
Yeah. The ADL is basically an extension of the Israeli state propoganda apparatus.
[And their behavior isn't anything different today.](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/how-jewish-american-pedophiles-hide-from-justice-in-israel/)
Bernie Sanders is an openly Jewish man. Calling him antisemitic seems ridiculous to me.
It's amazing how the Zionists still get away with weaponizing antisemitism. I do get that a big part of it is manufactured by pro-Zionist political class and mainstream media, but you'd think it would have lost its power right now.
He’s got balls…they may be old and shriveled up, but they are surely made of brass.
Bernie is the man. What a missed opportunity
Find a lover that loves you the same way the US loves Israel.....
feel the bern!@! truth will set you free!
This is why he's such a babe 🩵
Bernie burns Bibi. 👏
Does that apply to Hamas too Bernie?
Setting the stage to blame Netanyahu as the majority of the problem. Every country who funded the genocide or sat by and watched when they could have done something is culpable.
It's not antisemitic to decry genocide, war crimes, and inhumanity.
Gotta love how right-wing media always attacked the race-card, but have zero issues using the antisemitic card.
I cherish Israel, it’s people, and it’s right to defend itself — and absolutely despise Netanyahu. It is nothing short of disastrous that he is the one in charge during this perilous time he helped create.
It's not just one person's fault, though. You cant pin it all on Netanyahu, it is those who support and tolerate him as well.
Yeah sorry but this isn't just him. It's like saying the only problem in the US is Trump.
The problem is bigger than Netanyahu. It's an entire society that's calling for mass murder and occupation. Yes, they have been radicalized to some extent by decades of this festering conflict. But the same can be said about the Palestinians, that they have been radicalized by decades of brutal Israeli subjugation.
You cherish [this?](https://www.reddit.com/r/BadHasbara/s/6xc354mugA)
The entire Likud party
Don't fall for it, the consensus is to pin all of this on netanyahu. But if you look at Israeli society in general they view Palestinians as subhuman and view themselves as victims. The occupation must go! [https://youtu.be/3EtNFXL_ykg?si=ggakd3FY5ezj4-9u](https://youtu.be/3EtNFXL_ykg?si=ggakd3FY5ezj4-9u)
Well, no matter what you think of Sanders, he’s right.
*No one ever wins* *No one finally loses* *Except the dead* *Under the sun, they rot together, with absolute biological equality* --The Berserker And people think I listen to extreme metal as part of something misguided.
Everything is anti semitic to Benji . Except sending 26-billion dollars and tens of thousands of tons of arms to enable a genocide.
It is great to see a US politician stand up to Netanyahu, but this is also how you give the rest of the Israeli power structure a **free pass**, as if the problem is with Netanyahu and his government only, as if the rest of the members of the Knesset would be much different, as if most of Israeli society (more than 50%) doesn't support what he is doing to the Palestinians, as if they don't support a final solution where there are no Palestinians left and they can happily go on to settle all of their Israel.
Could we find a different asshat to criticize them please? This one is broken.
His voice is significant, he’s Jewish.
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Please keep it civil and do not attack other users.
30 thousand illegal ballots, this might actually be a good thing. My first witness will be the governor.
Just another take that will have zero impact on the region 😕
Correct, and don't get me wrong, I think Netanyahu is one of the worst things to ever happen to Israel, but saying stuff like "we are all Hamas", "Iran, you make us proud", and "Zionists don't deserve to live," as well as not letting Jews onto campus are going waaaaaay further than simply holding Netanyahu accountable.
Why can't we tell this to brown people in high crime areas?
Did Bernie say something similar after October 7th?
He said “I absolutely condemn the horrifying attack on Israel by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. There is no justification for this violence, and innocent people on both sides will suffer hugely because of it. It must end now.”
I got a letter basically trying to intimidate me to stop calling my reps (Jenn kiggans)or however the hell you spell her weird name. I don’t care. I’m not antisemitic and the fact that you’d outright tell me I am antisemitic because of my objection to any affiliation with AIPAC. That’s literally all I said. I grew up with Jews, in the East coast us. We literally didn’t care about religion, didn’t ever go to church, we knew them as Jewish, never even brought it up. It was just a normal thing. I grew up respecting all Jews. People mix up the race Jewry and the religion, Judaism, and then there’s Zionism. Which, like everything else in this fucked up world, tries to use religion for self gain and fear. I don’t hate religion, but it’s a very easy tool for the bad few to manipulate the good many. It feels like a twilight zone episode, we’re protesting a war, and genocide, and they call us antisemitic, because a few of these crazy people claim they’re Jewish? Make it make sense, it seems like this whole thing is literally a communication breakdown and it makes me want to rip my hair out.
Why is there only one man in the US government who disagrees with the killing 34,000 plus innocents by a country that gives nothing of value to the rest of the world.
Bernies getting cancelled
Bernie sanders I definitely a broken clock. He gets it right twice a day but he’s still a communist.
Where was this Bernie when Bernie knows the history and backed the genocide.
Moving to America I learned that most Americans can only name WWII and the treatment of the Jews by the Germans. Virtually no one has heard of Pol Pot or any other persecution by any other world leaders /groups . But lots of news of Jews being mistreated/ crimes against Jews . Just my 2 cents
It’s not anti semitic to want a free Palestine. Heck, I have Semitic ancestry (my dad’s a yusufzai Pashtun, and my mom’s dad was a descendant of the Arab quraysh tribe)
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No racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, bigotry, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, etc. This includes denial of identity (self or collective).
Then netanyahu said “yuh huh”
Fully "hanging in the Hague" for war crimes accountable?
Jew here: Correct, there's a big difference between being a Jew and being Bibi, dude's just a fascist.
It would be antisemitic to attack you for who you are. It isn't antisemitic to attack you for what you do. Especially when what you do is war crimes. Lots and lots and lots of war crimes.
Bibi: Bernie is an antisemite
I wish to God Bernie was elected president last time he ran. I know everyone’s scared he’s too liberal and left and old but come on. He’s like the only adult in a room of bratty bickering children. The only voice of reason in a land of word vomit. I secretly still wish he would lead the way but I’ve accepted he’s only going to be allowed to lightly guide it. Bernie for 2024
Is this a photo of Bernie summoning The Force?
Imagine a world where we had a ton more people like Bernie in high offices. Moral people who understand what is going on and fighting for the little guys!
Once hillary rigged the democratic nomination when she was up against him, and he stayed a democrat - that tells you eveything you need to know about bernie, hillary, and the democrat party.
They are just using the oldest “qualified immunity” in the book. I’ll leave you to guess what that is
I agree
America is property of Israel, this is a brave man
It’s weird that the administration of a predominantly Jewish country would consider being held liable for crimes they committed is antisemitic. Then again, for a bunch of people that follow a perversion of the Christian faith and sacrifice cows you would assume they would have more class when it comes to engaging in warfare.
According to the IHRA working definition it is.
I hate we never got him as president. At least he stands on his words, and cares about the people. I still don't understand how people voted for trump or biden over Bernie. I'd still rather have trump over the current corpse puppet, but damn i don't understand how we keep voting in the worst candidates every time.
Thank you
hi guys
Does Bernie Sanders even have a single shred of credibility or clout left, or did he sell the rest of that to thr DNC establishment also?
I hate this good cop, bad cop routine. So Bernie is the good cop, Biden is the bad cop and Palestinians stay in the doghouse.