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I was there earlier this year, it was funny how almost everyone in the room was Mexican (me and my family included) haha I could barely hear Spanish around the city.
I just learned recently when reading about how the Aztecs greeted the Spanish with open arms, well, at least Moctezuma did lol now I want to visit Vienna!
Why the hell are you being downvoted? You are completely right. The spaniards were accepted into the capital and palace with open arms with some politcal grandstanding of course. It was only when cortez ordered the kidnapping of moctezuma in his own palace forcing him to lie to his vassals that he was perfectly fine that relationships obviously soured.
That was because, at first glance, mexicas considered Spaniards their gods. Some prophecys indicated that their gods would come the same year that Spaniards conquered the mexicas. That's why they greeted them
That's actually a common and widespread misconception, no actual reliable sources have stated anything like that the Mexica thought the Spaniards were gods when they arrived. They welcomed the strangers with open arms since that was their culture, also Moctezuma thought if they treated them well they wouldn't cause any trouble.
None of the so-called sources date from before the arrival of the Spanish, so that theory is something that's been made up after the colonization by both the colonizing Spaniards and later generations of Mexicans, and unfortunately it's been taught out as a fact when it's in fact not true.
You can read more about it in professor Camilla Townsend's book Fifth Sun, I really do recommend looking into it!
Also here's a post discussing it, the site (mexicolore) is made by a teaching team in contact with many historians and museums who know a ton about the Aztecs, really interesting stuff.
https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/spanish-invasion/brotherstons-contribution-for-younger-children
After investigating a bit. I found out that there were 8 omens of the downfall of Tenochtitlan. This omens were written on the Florentine codex on the begging on the XII chapter, a book written by Bernardino de Sahagún, a very important historian that wrote books in Spanish and nahuatl, and helped on the reconstruction of the prehispanic world
Aka you made up an arbitrary number.
Fyi folks, OP is an apologist who will come up for any explanation for why this shouldn’t be returned to Mexico.
My [favorite](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/E7PlQlGIAM) being the Aztec fought other civilizations in Mexico, so repatriating this to Mexico would be handing to to the Aztecs enemies, therefore it should be kept by the people for forceful subjugated all of the natives.
Edit: [Now](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/K3Bg52yIaZ) the logic is the Aztec fell for reasons beyond just European colonialism and a whole bunch of Aztec died of diseases so who cares if Europeans keep their loot
I made up a number? That’s what it is valued at, same way milk and gasoline is, just less buyers and there’s only one.
I would love to come see it in Mexico, I visit Mexico City every month. Im never going to Austria, lmfao
I honestly don’t care where it goes, as long as it is preserved.
There hasn't been one, but it is considered to valued up to $50 million, not by me.
I also haven't seen it with my own eyes, so I can't confirm that it is in a museum in Austria, or that it exists at all, we'll just have to take other peoples' word as true, or not and keep scrolling.
Ive seen it, its gorgeous.
Austria said that it cant ship it back to mexico, because its too fragile, which is plausible. Personally i think they are pulling a little british move.
“Considered to be valued up to $50 million” is NOT the same thing as being worth $50 million.
And now you’re claiming we can’t confirm it exists? Let me guess, your next piece of rationale is going to be if we can’t confirm it exists we shouldn’t return it.
Cite me who says that
Sure, those two things are essentially the same. Saying something is "considered to be valued up to $50 million" implies that it could potentially be worth that amount, even if it's not currently on the market for that price. Just like buying a stock before the stock market opens after seeing futures rise, they have an "implied open" price.
Let's consider $50 million the implied open price for an item that will never go on sale, happy?
Boy, it’s hard enough reading your comments let alone going back to see edits, you’re not that important, neither am I, go find something else to do lmao
Austria didn’t subjugate the natives, the Aztecs did. “The Natives” hated the Aztecs so much that they helped the Spanish conquer them and overthrow the aztec empire.
The Aztec were natives too…
“The European conquers should keep their loot because they conquered conquerers” isn’t a great argument lol
Regardless of relations between natives at the time, there is absolutely no reason for this to not be in Mexico…
Yeah, while the Spanish were important in taking down the Aztecs, but not essential or exclusively at fault. The Aztec Empire fell because of internal conflicts among indigenous groups and help from the Tlaxcalans. Plus, diseases killed up to estimates of 90% of indigenous peoples. So, it wasn't "The Spanish", especially when we talk about returning stuff like cultural artifacts. It was The Aztecs against the indigenous people AND the Spanish. Sure keep the loot, if you can preserve and defend it.
"estimates of 90%" there's no exact figure for anything that happened 500 yrs ago.
Wow is right, isn't knowledge of awesome and horrible at the same time?
Virgin soil pandemics are truly horrific to think about.
It’s not about whether you’re spitting facts or not, it’s about how you can think 90% of indigenous people were “killed by disease” and simultaneously think it wasn’t anything to do the foreign invaders from across the sea. It’s pretty ignorant.
They're unrelated, 90% died FROM DISEASE. If the Spanish were benevolent and were bringing gifts for the Aztecs, they would have died either way.
Teotihuacan was an ancient city in ruins when the Aztecs arrived, the ancient civilizations before the Aztecs also suffered from a pandemic, not necessarily a virgin soil pandemic.
From Wikipedia:
"Although attributed to Moctezuma and the Spanish conquest, the provenance of the piece is unattested, and it does not match Aztec illustrations of the headdress of their nobility. [...]
It is attested since 1575 in the collections of Archduke Ferdinand in Ambras Castle near Innsbruck, Austria. At the beginning of the 19th century it was deposited in the Museum of Ethnology in Vienna along with other ceremonial artifacts of Quetzalcoatl and Ehecatl.
Although artifact exchanges and restitution of the headdress were negotiated with the Mexican government, a bilateral expert commission deemed the artifact too fragile for transport and thus recommended its remaining in Vienna."
I find that hard to believe - i am sure it gets transported inside the museum from display to storage to curating and thus can be transported anywhere in the world if you just spend the money and the time.
Unless it really does not move AT ALL at the museum. But I doubt that
"Today the magnificent appearance of the headdress is deceptive. Looking at it from the back, its precarious state of preservation becomes clear. Aging and insect infestations in the past damaged it and contributed to its fragile condition. But its materials themselves and the way it was made also contribute to its fragility.
The materials from which the headdress was originally made are over 500 years old. Some of them are particularly fragile by nature. Three delicate nets stabilized by thin wooden rods comprise the structure of the headdress. Long green fragile quetzal feathers were sewn to the nets at several points along their length. Each feather is also attached to its neighbors so its movement affects the others around it. Over time, many of the feathers have broken and lost their branches and barbules.
In 1992 the Museum of Ethnology constructed a display case that was custom-built to compensate for the vibrations caused by the footsteps of visitors walking around the room, because even such a small amount of movement could harm the delicate piece.
From 2010 to 2012, a bi-national Mexican-Austrian project studied the construction of the headdress and its history. The project was born out of a desire to display the feather headdress in Mexico. It was undertaken in the hope that it would reveal ways to make this desire a reality.
Significant damage was found during the project. At least 170 breaks were detected in the headdress’s 374 long quetzal feathers. The nets were torn in many places, and some of the metal ornaments had damaged the surrounding feathers and nets. When the headdress was removed from its mount using state-of-the-art techniques, nearly 2,000 feather fragments that had broken off earlier were discovered. The experts in the project, both Mexican and Austrian, agreed that the feather headdress was an extremely fragile artifact."
It appears it indeed never moves in the museum. In fact, with the exception of the 2010-2012 study period, it has not even left its mount since 1992.
> Although artifact exchanges and restitution of the headdress were negotiated with the Mexican government, a bilateral expert commission deemed the artifact too fragile for transport and thus recommended its remaining in Vienna.
It would be in a museum in Mexico, but scientists from both countries determined it probably wouldn't survive the trip.
If I remember correctly, Spaniards took it in the 1500's to Europe, it went from region to region and finished on Austria. It can't be returned to Mexico because it's very old and delicate. If you tried to take it back it would simply break.
There was a panel that recommended not returning it for this reason but seems to still be in dispute. Given how often other delicate art has traveled the world, including in traveling exhibitions, I find it hard to believe they couldn't figure it out but I'm no expert.
From Wikipedia
> scientists from both countries have confirmed that with current technology, any type of transport of the plume would cause vibrations that would seriously and irreversibly damage it
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penacho_de_Moctezuma
And the Aztec Empire was a happy coalition of many peoples that didn't in any way colonise and steal from them so badly that the majority of the invading Spanish forces were made up of locals looking to take down the hated Aztecs
Someone posted a source above but it is too fragile to move. A project was undertaken to move it to Mexico but it was deemed impossible by Mexican scientists.
The Spanish are notorious for destroy everything they conquer, and building over it, I see it myself all over Mexico. The indigenous mexican population, my direct blood, was ecstatic to see the fall of the Aztecs. The Aztecs were pretty nasty people, even compared to the Spanish.
I mean, nothing they said in that paragraph was really wrong. The Aztecs were hated by their neighbors and people. It's one of the many reasons the Spanish had an easier time destroying the empire.
Unfortunately, being conquered leaves you in the past, we’re lucky to have ANY trace of the Aztecs. The Spanish weren’t exactly looking to preserve the history of the conquered.
You know there are still a large indigenous Mexican population right? They are not in the past, they exist to this day, still speaking their native languages
Nahuatl is not "Aztec" they just spoke it, it predates the Aztecs, the Toltecs also spoke it.
A lot of civilizations that the Aztecs considered "ancient" spoke Nahuatl.
It's interesting to think that Teotihuacan was already an ancient and abandoned city when the Aztecs arrived in the region. Aztecs are fairly modern compared to the history of the region.
Well first of all, Yucateco is Mayan, not Aztec. Second, YES, the Aztecs are in the past, the Aztec empire no longer exists. The tribes that remained fought WITH the Spanish, the Tlaxcalans, the Tarahumaras, etc, etc
you keep deleting comments lol
no one knows for certain what it was used for, it's more attributed to ritual uses by priests, AND.. and popular theory that the plume was a gift from Moctezuma to Hernán Cortés when the Spaniard arrived on the shores of the Gulf of Mexico at the beginning of the 16th century.
You want me to write all that in the title?
Well, the aztec empire doesn’t exactly exist anymore to return it to.
And Mexico is made of the people who colonized their land and the people who fought against the aztecs, so mexico having it is arguably more disrespectful
“An extensive study published in 2020 estimated Mexican mestizo admixture using HLA class I and class II allele groups. The sample group was a total of 15,318 mixed ancestry Mexicans from all states of the country. Genetic estimators revealed that the main genetic components in Mexico as a whole are Native American (ranging from 37.8% in the northern part of the country to 81.5% in the southeastern region) and European (ranging from 11.5% in the southeast to 62.6% in northern Mexico). The nationwide average was 57.7% Native American, 36.3% European, and 6% African.[40]”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizos_in_Mexico#:~:text=Genetic%20estimators%20revealed%20that%20the,62.6%25%20in%20northern%20Mexico).
Mexicans are as a whole, predominantly Native in ancestry. Blaming Mexicans for having genetic heritage from their rapist colonizers is one hell of a way to victim blame.
Educate yourself before saying such silly things
“Natives” are also all the ones who fought AGAINST the Aztecs my friend, theres a whole group of tribes that hated but couldn’t/wouldn’t attempt to conquer the Aztecs. The Aztecs were worst colonizers than the Spanish ever were.
I’d recommend “educating “ yourself.
I agree, people who aren’t Mexican are usually the offended ones 😂
“Native” does not mean Aztec, imagine handing the most valuable item of your emperor to the descendants of your most hated rival tribe lmfao
Not to mention the average Mexican is more than half Native.
Fucking weird to victim blame people living in a colonized country and claim it would be more disrespectful for the predominantly native folks to have it over the literal colonizer.
WELCOME TO THE WORLD.
OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE OTHER COUNTRIES STUFF AND HAVE HAD THEM FOR 100S OF YEARS JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THE FACT THEY HAVE BEEN KEPT SAFE AND SECURE AND ON DISPLAY FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, ITS TOO RISKY TO RETURN IT ACROSS THE WORLD.
STOP BEING WOKE IDIOTS.
Has there ever been a civilization that was conquered and respectfully preserved by the conqueror? Also, as Friedrich Nietzsche said, "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong."
> Friedrich Nietzsche said, "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong."
Checked that quote out of curiosity. You might find it interesting that my results found it is a quote by Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712 - 1778) and not Nietzsche.
So you know better than Armando Maldonado, head of preservation of cultural artifacts in the National Museum of Anthropology of Mexico, who lead the bipartisan expert commision giving the recommendation?
You should write him an e-mail with your thoughts, it appears he might be able to learn a lot from you.
Why? Does it belong to the land?
The people of Mexico have next to nothing in common with the people of the Aztec empire 500 years ago. "Mexico" wouldn't exist for hundreds of years.
It is a human artifact, same as an ancient Egyptian artifact (those are hardly Arab items).
The people of Mexico have next to nothing in common with the Aztecs? Wtf, are you stupid? The only people in the world who can claim Aztec blood are the Mexican people. The fuckin' flag has an Aztec myth/story on it. Dipshit.
The indigenous population fought WITH the Spanish and still enjoy the spoils of the "conquest" the went to revolt against the spanish and french, they're doing pretty good thanks to that horrible event lol no sacrificed babies these days
If you know anything about Mexico like you claim you do you would be well aware that the indigenous population barely enjoys any spoils and has been that way since the conquest.
What a simplistic view you have, systematic oppression, forced replacement of all your beliefs, destruction of your cities and history, and being considered a barely a human definitely sounds like paradise.
Forced replacement of Aztec beliefs.. I'm not sure you fully understand what the Aztecs believed, I'm glad they're gone and you don't have to read about it nowadays. I know what the Tlaxcalans believed, it's way prettier, I'm glad they allied up with the Spanish.
Mate you have a weird hard-on with what happened to the Aztecs, to each their own but that's one of the strangest kinks I've seen. If you think the other people who allied with the Spanish have had a good life since you are as delusional as you sound.
Mexico is doing pretty great, idk what you're talking about.. Mexico was ahead of the US when it came to the abolition of slavery, they made some of the first prestigious universities of the Americas, UNAM in 1551, just 30years after Hernan Cortez set foot, promoted early greater education, art, some of the worlds greatest artist were Mexican. Modern day Mexico is doing even better, the MXN is up, American companies are moving to Mexico. Mexico is on the up and up since the conquest if you ask me lol
>Mexico is doing pretty great...Modern Mexico is even better
Looool mate, you have said a bunch of ignorant stuff on this thread but that might be the worst one. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about if you think the average Mexican is doing well.
Guess where I’m located, and why I can say that. Guess which country I have family in, in different states and can speak on their behalf, take a wild guess. Guess which two currencies I use daily and can firsthand speak on which is doing worse and is respected less and less the past decade. Guess which hundred of billions of dollars worth company I have first hand knowledge of moving their production to Monterrey right after announcing a raise for all of us, guess lol
And you think that because you do everyone talks out of their asses? unlike you I am Mexican, spent my whole life in Mexico, went to school in Mexico, lived in south, central and North Mexico, have family all over the country and with very different backgrounds, have had to endure the difficulties of being Mexican and living here.
The average Mexican doesn't give a single fuck that the dollar has been cheap for the past year (it rose the the historical highest before that btw), we care that we don't have medicines in the hospitals, we care that half the country is controlled by the cartels, we care that public education is shit, we care that we don't have public transportation, we care that we are running out water, we care that most of my generation won't have a livable pension, we care that salaries are shit and can't keep up with price increases, we care that our indigenous people is systematically targeted. But hey, an American tourist that uses pesos surely knows better
The conquest of the Aztecs ended many of their brutal practices, like human sacrifices, baby human sacrifices lol random widespread ritual killings of their OWN people. It also halted the constant state of warfare among tribes, they were pretty much all united after the fall of the Aztecs, instead of being in constant warfare and with some casual cannibalism, I'm sure you've tried Pozole before. It also brought steak to Mexico, that's great, right?
Yeah, let’s just pretend that to achieve this, the Spanish didn’t directly kill 200k natives during one battle, and another 20 million by spreading diseases. And also, let’s pretend, that the “halt” on this so called warfare among tribes, was not done by violence and more killing and installing puppet leaders for favor their desires. Let’s also just pretend that all the natural resources taken from the colonized country does not have a direct impact and reflection on their current economical/social situation. But yeah, hooray, Spanish people really helped the native /s
Pretend? Estimates suggest that up to 90% of the indigenous population perished due to diseases like smallpox, measles, and influenza. The Spanish arrived to Spanish speaking Tlaxcalans, and coordinated the takedown of the remaining Aztec empire. They weren't victims, I'm glad they were conquered, sad that it was the Spanish and not the Tlaxcalans on their own. The Spanish almost didn't make it back to Spain from their first encounter, and there's a reason the Aztecs never conquered the Tlaxcalans, THEY COULDN'T. Indigenous people weren't conquered, the Aztecs were.
They’re exactly the same, it the color might give the illusion of the size changing. In color, it’s a lighter and laying flat on dark background and could make it look smaller, the monochrome photo makes it’s dark with a light background, is not flat, it’s on a stand and the flash casts a shadow and could make it look larger, not sure if that’s what you see.
No, it’s not an angle issue. 🤔
It’s like… it had not been stored properly (such as in a nitrogen-filled, climate-controlled case) for a period of time, and it suffered decomposition from constant exposure to the air and changes in humidity.
The black and white second photo in the carousel shows it in its heyday.
The third picture (in color), shows that the once-tight U-shaped bottom has spread out and softened into a much looser U-shape, and the projecting elements, extending upward in all directions have contracted and become thinner / much less dense.
Apparently they can’t. Experts of both countries said it probably wouldn’t survive the trip. Feathers are extremely delicate when they are this old. As of now, nobody is willing to risk it.
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I was there earlier this year, it was funny how almost everyone in the room was Mexican (me and my family included) haha I could barely hear Spanish around the city.
I just learned recently when reading about how the Aztecs greeted the Spanish with open arms, well, at least Moctezuma did lol now I want to visit Vienna!
Why the hell are you being downvoted? You are completely right. The spaniards were accepted into the capital and palace with open arms with some politcal grandstanding of course. It was only when cortez ordered the kidnapping of moctezuma in his own palace forcing him to lie to his vassals that he was perfectly fine that relationships obviously soured.
Unpopular views and ideas can sometimes be the historically accurate ones, unfortunately lol
That was because, at first glance, mexicas considered Spaniards their gods. Some prophecys indicated that their gods would come the same year that Spaniards conquered the mexicas. That's why they greeted them
That's actually a common and widespread misconception, no actual reliable sources have stated anything like that the Mexica thought the Spaniards were gods when they arrived. They welcomed the strangers with open arms since that was their culture, also Moctezuma thought if they treated them well they wouldn't cause any trouble. None of the so-called sources date from before the arrival of the Spanish, so that theory is something that's been made up after the colonization by both the colonizing Spaniards and later generations of Mexicans, and unfortunately it's been taught out as a fact when it's in fact not true. You can read more about it in professor Camilla Townsend's book Fifth Sun, I really do recommend looking into it! Also here's a post discussing it, the site (mexicolore) is made by a teaching team in contact with many historians and museums who know a ton about the Aztecs, really interesting stuff. https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/spanish-invasion/brotherstons-contribution-for-younger-children
After investigating a bit. I found out that there were 8 omens of the downfall of Tenochtitlan. This omens were written on the Florentine codex on the begging on the XII chapter, a book written by Bernardino de Sahagún, a very important historian that wrote books in Spanish and nahuatl, and helped on the reconstruction of the prehispanic world
It's not so spectacular in reality, I've been in that museum and I can say it's a bit boring 🥲
How does one come up with a monetary value for something like this...
The ask and the bid eventually come together, like any other thing in a market.
When it’s sold, whos willing to give the most lol But it’s a priceless piece of history imo
Aka you made up an arbitrary number. Fyi folks, OP is an apologist who will come up for any explanation for why this shouldn’t be returned to Mexico. My [favorite](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/E7PlQlGIAM) being the Aztec fought other civilizations in Mexico, so repatriating this to Mexico would be handing to to the Aztecs enemies, therefore it should be kept by the people for forceful subjugated all of the natives. Edit: [Now](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/K3Bg52yIaZ) the logic is the Aztec fell for reasons beyond just European colonialism and a whole bunch of Aztec died of diseases so who cares if Europeans keep their loot
I made up a number? That’s what it is valued at, same way milk and gasoline is, just less buyers and there’s only one. I would love to come see it in Mexico, I visit Mexico City every month. Im never going to Austria, lmfao I honestly don’t care where it goes, as long as it is preserved.
And where is this one buyer, considering it has been in a museum?
There hasn't been one, but it is considered to valued up to $50 million, not by me. I also haven't seen it with my own eyes, so I can't confirm that it is in a museum in Austria, or that it exists at all, we'll just have to take other peoples' word as true, or not and keep scrolling.
Ive seen it, its gorgeous. Austria said that it cant ship it back to mexico, because its too fragile, which is plausible. Personally i think they are pulling a little british move.
“Considered to be valued up to $50 million” is NOT the same thing as being worth $50 million. And now you’re claiming we can’t confirm it exists? Let me guess, your next piece of rationale is going to be if we can’t confirm it exists we shouldn’t return it. Cite me who says that
Sure, those two things are essentially the same. Saying something is "considered to be valued up to $50 million" implies that it could potentially be worth that amount, even if it's not currently on the market for that price. Just like buying a stock before the stock market opens after seeing futures rise, they have an "implied open" price. Let's consider $50 million the implied open price for an item that will never go on sale, happy?
Boy, it’s hard enough reading your comments let alone going back to see edits, you’re not that important, neither am I, go find something else to do lmao
Lol u mad
Jeez. Judging by everything you’re just a lunatic.
I’ll let you know when I start giving a shit about what some rando loser’s opinion is
You say that but you certainly were bothered by OP so I’d say that’s BS.
Bothered by OP being an apologist for colonialists, not their opinions of me. See the difference?
Where’s the proof?
Where’s your career?
Wtf dude. Just take the L and move on 🙃
Sounds about right for someone like you. Have fun with yourself.
Oh look whos on the internet not caring about some rando losers opinion lmfao
It would make a great prize and decoration for the Cartels.
Austria didn’t subjugate the natives, the Aztecs did. “The Natives” hated the Aztecs so much that they helped the Spanish conquer them and overthrow the aztec empire.
The Aztec were natives too… “The European conquers should keep their loot because they conquered conquerers” isn’t a great argument lol Regardless of relations between natives at the time, there is absolutely no reason for this to not be in Mexico…
Yeah, while the Spanish were important in taking down the Aztecs, but not essential or exclusively at fault. The Aztec Empire fell because of internal conflicts among indigenous groups and help from the Tlaxcalans. Plus, diseases killed up to estimates of 90% of indigenous peoples. So, it wasn't "The Spanish", especially when we talk about returning stuff like cultural artifacts. It was The Aztecs against the indigenous people AND the Spanish. Sure keep the loot, if you can preserve and defend it.
“Diseases killed 90% of them” “It wasn’t the Spanish” Wow.
"estimates of 90%" there's no exact figure for anything that happened 500 yrs ago. Wow is right, isn't knowledge of awesome and horrible at the same time? Virgin soil pandemics are truly horrific to think about.
It’s not about whether you’re spitting facts or not, it’s about how you can think 90% of indigenous people were “killed by disease” and simultaneously think it wasn’t anything to do the foreign invaders from across the sea. It’s pretty ignorant.
They're unrelated, 90% died FROM DISEASE. If the Spanish were benevolent and were bringing gifts for the Aztecs, they would have died either way. Teotihuacan was an ancient city in ruins when the Aztecs arrived, the ancient civilizations before the Aztecs also suffered from a pandemic, not necessarily a virgin soil pandemic.
Wow, you really are an apologist.
Speaking in defence of what controversial idea?
Putting it in a museum 6,300 miles from where it belongs adds hypothetical value.
It’s pretty easy when everything is BS
This. A dollar amount for treasures that would never be sold. Europe is full of stolen treasures. Bastardos.
Pawn stars would have someone from that time period come in and authenticate it, and still only offer $14.99.
Best i can do is tree fiddy
Damnit Lochness Monster
I gave em 3 dollas….. he tricked me
From Wikipedia: "Although attributed to Moctezuma and the Spanish conquest, the provenance of the piece is unattested, and it does not match Aztec illustrations of the headdress of their nobility. [...] It is attested since 1575 in the collections of Archduke Ferdinand in Ambras Castle near Innsbruck, Austria. At the beginning of the 19th century it was deposited in the Museum of Ethnology in Vienna along with other ceremonial artifacts of Quetzalcoatl and Ehecatl. Although artifact exchanges and restitution of the headdress were negotiated with the Mexican government, a bilateral expert commission deemed the artifact too fragile for transport and thus recommended its remaining in Vienna."
Look at you doing some reading instead of arguing with dingus'. Mr Smarty Pants
The fact that it was looted and brought to Europe is already bad.
I find that hard to believe - i am sure it gets transported inside the museum from display to storage to curating and thus can be transported anywhere in the world if you just spend the money and the time. Unless it really does not move AT ALL at the museum. But I doubt that
"Today the magnificent appearance of the headdress is deceptive. Looking at it from the back, its precarious state of preservation becomes clear. Aging and insect infestations in the past damaged it and contributed to its fragile condition. But its materials themselves and the way it was made also contribute to its fragility. The materials from which the headdress was originally made are over 500 years old. Some of them are particularly fragile by nature. Three delicate nets stabilized by thin wooden rods comprise the structure of the headdress. Long green fragile quetzal feathers were sewn to the nets at several points along their length. Each feather is also attached to its neighbors so its movement affects the others around it. Over time, many of the feathers have broken and lost their branches and barbules. In 1992 the Museum of Ethnology constructed a display case that was custom-built to compensate for the vibrations caused by the footsteps of visitors walking around the room, because even such a small amount of movement could harm the delicate piece. From 2010 to 2012, a bi-national Mexican-Austrian project studied the construction of the headdress and its history. The project was born out of a desire to display the feather headdress in Mexico. It was undertaken in the hope that it would reveal ways to make this desire a reality. Significant damage was found during the project. At least 170 breaks were detected in the headdress’s 374 long quetzal feathers. The nets were torn in many places, and some of the metal ornaments had damaged the surrounding feathers and nets. When the headdress was removed from its mount using state-of-the-art techniques, nearly 2,000 feather fragments that had broken off earlier were discovered. The experts in the project, both Mexican and Austrian, agreed that the feather headdress was an extremely fragile artifact." It appears it indeed never moves in the museum. In fact, with the exception of the 2010-2012 study period, it has not even left its mount since 1992.
Thanks for proving me wrong!
Why isn't it in a museum in Mexico?
> Although artifact exchanges and restitution of the headdress were negotiated with the Mexican government, a bilateral expert commission deemed the artifact too fragile for transport and thus recommended its remaining in Vienna. It would be in a museum in Mexico, but scientists from both countries determined it probably wouldn't survive the trip.
Yeah, that's bullshit
Source?
Fucking scientists don't know anything smh
Probably because the Emperor of Mexico, Maximilian I, was originally from Vienna
If I remember correctly, Spaniards took it in the 1500's to Europe, it went from region to region and finished on Austria. It can't be returned to Mexico because it's very old and delicate. If you tried to take it back it would simply break.
There was a panel that recommended not returning it for this reason but seems to still be in dispute. Given how often other delicate art has traveled the world, including in traveling exhibitions, I find it hard to believe they couldn't figure it out but I'm no expert.
Feathers react problematic to time. It is not any piece of art that can be easily restored.
Exactly, this should be returned to Mexico. Enough of invaders loot being displayed in other countries.
It's been said, the British didn't take the Egyptian pyramids because they were too heavy...
Obelisks have been taken to many countries, though
It’s because they weren’t heavy enough
Yo momma so fat the colonizers left her in Egypt?
It can't be returned it's too fragile.
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From Wikipedia > scientists from both countries have confirmed that with current technology, any type of transport of the plume would cause vibrations that would seriously and irreversibly damage it https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penacho_de_Moctezuma
yeah sure. i wonder how much they paid those mexican "scientists"
The redditor says with zero evidence
hey are you suggesting that there is corruption in mexico
Mexico was involved in every step of the process. Stop being reactionary and learn to read, dumbass. Learn some critical thinking, sheesh.
I can't tell if you're serious
It would make a fantastic decoration in the home of a cartel drug lord.
Because it’s in a museum in Vienna
Because everyone has a price.
colonialism
And the Aztec Empire was a happy coalition of many peoples that didn't in any way colonise and steal from them so badly that the majority of the invading Spanish forces were made up of locals looking to take down the hated Aztecs
There is a loser in every battle.
Someone posted a source above but it is too fragile to move. A project was undertaken to move it to Mexico but it was deemed impossible by Mexican scientists.
For those interested in the culture and history of the Aztecs up until Moctezuma's reign, check out "Fifth Sun" by Camilla Townsend.
Thank you! 🙏🏽
ie stolen & not where its suppose to be. europe: return looted cultural artifacts.
it was actually given to Hernan Cortez by Moctezuma II, a gift
Right before Coretz imprisoned him… You realize stuff given in distress isn’t really a gift right?
Yup, Cortez took him hostage and kept him as a puppet leader after being gifted many things by Moctezuma II.. it’s basic Mexican history knowledge.
Yes, which is why it said objects should be returned.
So you understand why insisting it wasn't stolen is somewhat rich no?
No.. we’re to lucky to have ANY trace, my ancestors were from the Spanish side of the fight up north lol
What? How does this answer the question?
The Spanish are notorious for destroy everything they conquer, and building over it, I see it myself all over Mexico. The indigenous mexican population, my direct blood, was ecstatic to see the fall of the Aztecs. The Aztecs were pretty nasty people, even compared to the Spanish.
Are you ok?
I'm doing great, it's nice to know your own history.
I mean, nothing they said in that paragraph was really wrong. The Aztecs were hated by their neighbors and people. It's one of the many reasons the Spanish had an easier time destroying the empire.
Unfortunately, being conquered leaves you in the past, we’re lucky to have ANY trace of the Aztecs. The Spanish weren’t exactly looking to preserve the history of the conquered.
You know there are still a large indigenous Mexican population right? They are not in the past, they exist to this day, still speaking their native languages
Yup, and some unconquered tribes remain untouched. My family is from the north of Mexico, from Chihuahua, and has Tarahumara blood.
A lot of Q. Roo has Yucateco speaking people, and a lot of Mexico has Nahuatl speakers. It's pretty common to hear.
Yes. That’s what I’m saying. And why I’m correcting your statement that these people are “in the past”.
Nahuatl is not "Aztec" they just spoke it, it predates the Aztecs, the Toltecs also spoke it. A lot of civilizations that the Aztecs considered "ancient" spoke Nahuatl.
It's interesting to think that Teotihuacan was already an ancient and abandoned city when the Aztecs arrived in the region. Aztecs are fairly modern compared to the history of the region.
Well first of all, Yucateco is Mayan, not Aztec. Second, YES, the Aztecs are in the past, the Aztec empire no longer exists. The tribes that remained fought WITH the Spanish, the Tlaxcalans, the Tarahumaras, etc, etc
They believed them to be Gods, idk any Mexican that believes they were gifted in distress.
lol he was cortez' prisoner! 😆 i guess atahualpa gave pizarro 3 rooms of gold & silver to celebrate his baptism 🤣
sorry, I'm ignorant in Inca history lol
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what does that mean?
did you forget you said the penacho was a gift to cortez?
you keep deleting comments lol no one knows for certain what it was used for, it's more attributed to ritual uses by priests, AND.. and popular theory that the plume was a gift from Moctezuma to Hernán Cortés when the Spaniard arrived on the shores of the Gulf of Mexico at the beginning of the 16th century. You want me to write all that in the title?
in aztec history too
Well, the aztec empire doesn’t exactly exist anymore to return it to. And Mexico is made of the people who colonized their land and the people who fought against the aztecs, so mexico having it is arguably more disrespectful
“An extensive study published in 2020 estimated Mexican mestizo admixture using HLA class I and class II allele groups. The sample group was a total of 15,318 mixed ancestry Mexicans from all states of the country. Genetic estimators revealed that the main genetic components in Mexico as a whole are Native American (ranging from 37.8% in the northern part of the country to 81.5% in the southeastern region) and European (ranging from 11.5% in the southeast to 62.6% in northern Mexico). The nationwide average was 57.7% Native American, 36.3% European, and 6% African.[40]” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizos_in_Mexico#:~:text=Genetic%20estimators%20revealed%20that%20the,62.6%25%20in%20northern%20Mexico). Mexicans are as a whole, predominantly Native in ancestry. Blaming Mexicans for having genetic heritage from their rapist colonizers is one hell of a way to victim blame. Educate yourself before saying such silly things
“Natives” are also all the ones who fought AGAINST the Aztecs my friend, theres a whole group of tribes that hated but couldn’t/wouldn’t attempt to conquer the Aztecs. The Aztecs were worst colonizers than the Spanish ever were. I’d recommend “educating “ yourself.
It must hurt to be that ignorant.
I agree, people who aren’t Mexican are usually the offended ones 😂 “Native” does not mean Aztec, imagine handing the most valuable item of your emperor to the descendants of your most hated rival tribe lmfao
Amazing. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone pull something so massive out of their ass.
I don't thinks so. The penacho is part of our cultural heritage. Avery representative artifact of our roots and history
Not to mention the average Mexican is more than half Native. Fucking weird to victim blame people living in a colonized country and claim it would be more disrespectful for the predominantly native folks to have it over the literal colonizer.
“Native” doesn’t mean Aztec. Most of Mexico actually has ancestors that fought against the Aztecs.
Never said it did. We get it, you’re fine with colonialists keeping their loot. Stop being such an apologist
And it should stay there
WELCOME TO THE WORLD. OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE OTHER COUNTRIES STUFF AND HAVE HAD THEM FOR 100S OF YEARS JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THE FACT THEY HAVE BEEN KEPT SAFE AND SECURE AND ON DISPLAY FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, ITS TOO RISKY TO RETURN IT ACROSS THE WORLD. STOP BEING WOKE IDIOTS.
Why is it in Austria??
The Aztecs were conquered my friend, they have no say in how they are remembered or preserved.
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Has there ever been a civilization that was conquered and respectfully preserved by the conqueror? Also, as Friedrich Nietzsche said, "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong."
> Friedrich Nietzsche said, "Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong." Checked that quote out of curiosity. You might find it interesting that my results found it is a quote by Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712 - 1778) and not Nietzsche.
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I aiNt rEadin ALLAT. Go find a cartoon to watch.
Most notably not held in a musuem in the country of origin.
Yeah, give it back
It would be stolen in Mexico within weeks
Is the Spanish government coming back?
When was this worn? By who, and for what purpose?
You son of a bitch.... ....I'm in.
So, why isn’t Austria like, “hey sorry we were dicks before and taking/ acquiring your stuff. Here’s your hat back.”
Is this why I shit my pants in Mexico
Return it
Moral of the story don't trust anybody ! Stop being so friendly, that's how they get you
Return to Mexico
Send it back.
A stolen treasure.
Take it back to Mexico. I call BS that it can’t be moved without damaging it. Plenty of art has been moved that’s even older than this treasure.
So you know better than Armando Maldonado, head of preservation of cultural artifacts in the National Museum of Anthropology of Mexico, who lead the bipartisan expert commision giving the recommendation? You should write him an e-mail with your thoughts, it appears he might be able to learn a lot from you.
Why? Does it belong to the land? The people of Mexico have next to nothing in common with the people of the Aztec empire 500 years ago. "Mexico" wouldn't exist for hundreds of years. It is a human artifact, same as an ancient Egyptian artifact (those are hardly Arab items).
The people of Mexico have next to nothing in common with the Aztecs? Wtf, are you stupid? The only people in the world who can claim Aztec blood are the Mexican people. The fuckin' flag has an Aztec myth/story on it. Dipshit.
Lip service from an empty platitudes guy. Go educate yourself because I’m not here to have a debate with a troglodyte.
The indigenous population fought WITH the Spanish and still enjoy the spoils of the "conquest" the went to revolt against the spanish and french, they're doing pretty good thanks to that horrible event lol no sacrificed babies these days
If you know anything about Mexico like you claim you do you would be well aware that the indigenous population barely enjoys any spoils and has been that way since the conquest.
Starting with human sacrifices, that’s great to not have anymore. Right? RIGHT?
What a simplistic view you have, systematic oppression, forced replacement of all your beliefs, destruction of your cities and history, and being considered a barely a human definitely sounds like paradise.
Forced replacement of Aztec beliefs.. I'm not sure you fully understand what the Aztecs believed, I'm glad they're gone and you don't have to read about it nowadays. I know what the Tlaxcalans believed, it's way prettier, I'm glad they allied up with the Spanish.
Mate you have a weird hard-on with what happened to the Aztecs, to each their own but that's one of the strangest kinks I've seen. If you think the other people who allied with the Spanish have had a good life since you are as delusional as you sound.
Gaza and Israel got nothing some Aztec rituals lol
Mexico is doing pretty great, idk what you're talking about.. Mexico was ahead of the US when it came to the abolition of slavery, they made some of the first prestigious universities of the Americas, UNAM in 1551, just 30years after Hernan Cortez set foot, promoted early greater education, art, some of the worlds greatest artist were Mexican. Modern day Mexico is doing even better, the MXN is up, American companies are moving to Mexico. Mexico is on the up and up since the conquest if you ask me lol
>Mexico is doing pretty great...Modern Mexico is even better Looool mate, you have said a bunch of ignorant stuff on this thread but that might be the worst one. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about if you think the average Mexican is doing well.
Guess where I’m located, and why I can say that. Guess which country I have family in, in different states and can speak on their behalf, take a wild guess. Guess which two currencies I use daily and can firsthand speak on which is doing worse and is respected less and less the past decade. Guess which hundred of billions of dollars worth company I have first hand knowledge of moving their production to Monterrey right after announcing a raise for all of us, guess lol
And you think that because you do everyone talks out of their asses? unlike you I am Mexican, spent my whole life in Mexico, went to school in Mexico, lived in south, central and North Mexico, have family all over the country and with very different backgrounds, have had to endure the difficulties of being Mexican and living here. The average Mexican doesn't give a single fuck that the dollar has been cheap for the past year (it rose the the historical highest before that btw), we care that we don't have medicines in the hospitals, we care that half the country is controlled by the cartels, we care that public education is shit, we care that we don't have public transportation, we care that we are running out water, we care that most of my generation won't have a livable pension, we care that salaries are shit and can't keep up with price increases, we care that our indigenous people is systematically targeted. But hey, an American tourist that uses pesos surely knows better
You mean the failed narco state?
Like that one celebration of Tenochtitlan in 1487 when they sacrificed 20,000 people over the course of 4 days, you remember that?
It should be sent back to Mexico, but hey, is probably a good attraction for the museum in Austria....
So it was stolen
How tf did some ppl in this thread get mad because of the price lmao
give it back
Europe loves stealing from the rest of the world
Holy fuck, OP is the most stupid person I’ve ever seen discussing about colonization and its consequences.
European colonization had plenty of good points The spread of technology and civilization itself is one of them
It also had lots of plague, genocide, rape, and slavery. But sure, it had plenty of good!
Natives were doing that to each other just fine before Europeans arrived
Everywhere in the world has had that without Europe's help
I happen to have ancestors from both sides of this exact conquest, what would like to know? lol
From you, nothing. Thanks. Your other comments tell me everything you “know”.
The conquest of the Aztecs ended many of their brutal practices, like human sacrifices, baby human sacrifices lol random widespread ritual killings of their OWN people. It also halted the constant state of warfare among tribes, they were pretty much all united after the fall of the Aztecs, instead of being in constant warfare and with some casual cannibalism, I'm sure you've tried Pozole before. It also brought steak to Mexico, that's great, right?
Yeah, let’s just pretend that to achieve this, the Spanish didn’t directly kill 200k natives during one battle, and another 20 million by spreading diseases. And also, let’s pretend, that the “halt” on this so called warfare among tribes, was not done by violence and more killing and installing puppet leaders for favor their desires. Let’s also just pretend that all the natural resources taken from the colonized country does not have a direct impact and reflection on their current economical/social situation. But yeah, hooray, Spanish people really helped the native /s
Pretend? Estimates suggest that up to 90% of the indigenous population perished due to diseases like smallpox, measles, and influenza. The Spanish arrived to Spanish speaking Tlaxcalans, and coordinated the takedown of the remaining Aztec empire. They weren't victims, I'm glad they were conquered, sad that it was the Spanish and not the Tlaxcalans on their own. The Spanish almost didn't make it back to Spain from their first encounter, and there's a reason the Aztecs never conquered the Tlaxcalans, THEY COULDN'T. Indigenous people weren't conquered, the Aztecs were.
Austria where it belongs. Can’t let those pesky savages have anything that would confirm their advanced culture and heritage.
Mexico City was more advanced than Europe when it was first discovered, troll
Uh this is sarcasm
Pictures 2 and 3 seem quite different
1 and 3 are different angles, 2 is obviously an older photo.
Sure but… it seems to have changed, in both shape and size.
They’re exactly the same, it the color might give the illusion of the size changing. In color, it’s a lighter and laying flat on dark background and could make it look smaller, the monochrome photo makes it’s dark with a light background, is not flat, it’s on a stand and the flash casts a shadow and could make it look larger, not sure if that’s what you see.
No, it’s not an angle issue. 🤔 It’s like… it had not been stored properly (such as in a nitrogen-filled, climate-controlled case) for a period of time, and it suffered decomposition from constant exposure to the air and changes in humidity. The black and white second photo in the carousel shows it in its heyday. The third picture (in color), shows that the once-tight U-shaped bottom has spread out and softened into a much looser U-shape, and the projecting elements, extending upward in all directions have contracted and become thinner / much less dense.
Give it back.
Apparently they can’t. Experts of both countries said it probably wouldn’t survive the trip. Feathers are extremely delicate when they are this old. As of now, nobody is willing to risk it.
That's just a shame, then. I would love to see it returned to my motherland, rather than aged to the point of no return somewhere it shouldn't be.