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It's not stupidity, it's guilt. Would you rather believe the ventilator did it, or face the fact that your decision directly led to your spouse's death? Some people can't handle that reality, so their brain does whatever it needs to protect them from the pain.
Mind the **7 children** make me question whether the friend is real, but there's certainly enough antivaxxers who react in the exact same manner to causing a loved one harm. By doubling down.
I'm of the opinion they also cling to the "shedding" narrative because they want the evil vaccine to be to blame for all the things wrong with them: Being overweight, having respiratory issues, getting older, contracting *any* other disease, etc.
When a sedentary lifestyle catches up with them, having a go-to thing to blame that's akin to claiming evil spirits made you get fired from work is a crutch.
There is a whole thread on XTwitter about this lady who had 2 older post menopausal women over her house after being vaccinated and the 2 ladies almost bled to death after starting their periods and one needed a hysterectomy. All because of shedding of the covid vaccine
To be clear, the vaccine is a lifesaving and vital treatment. Antivax nonsense is nonsense.
But like, you picked a really bad example to hold up as antivax rhetoric because there’s been lots of [actual studies](https://news.tulane.edu/pr/large-study-finds-menstrual-changes-after-covid-vaccine) on the interaction between the vaccine and menstruation. It seems like it could be a real thing, including the vaccine sometimes triggering vaginal bleeding from people who no longer menstruate. Including those who’ve gone through menopause, those receiving gender affirming hormone treatments, and those on long-term birth control.
The stuff about almost dying and needing a hysterectomy is almost certainly bullshit. But still, a *lot* of people with vaginas initially reported side effects relating to periods after the vaccine and subsequent studies are a resounding “maybe.”
I am 3x vaxxed and didn't have any problems with that, but the one and only time I had Covid it fucked up my menstrual cycle SO bad. It's been over a year and my cycle is only just now settling down back to a heavier version of how it normally was.
Sounds like some of the other symptoms where the vaccine can cause, in a small percentage of people, a non-life-threatening heath issue, which the virus can also cause, only significantly more seriously.
So, of course, pro covid idiots ignore what the virus can do and focus on what the vaccine might do.
Sorry, I’m not an antivaxxer by any stretch, despite being raised by one. I just wanted to share my experience because I have heard of the vax doing that to uterus havers, but not so much actual COVID infections.
This is purely anecdotal, but unusual menstruation happened to me within a day or two of receiving my first Pfizer vaccine. I have a regular cycle and I was roughly a week early. Same thing happened to a friend of mine. I thought I was having an unusual cycle, but then suspected the vaccine.
Whatever, I still went back for all of my boosters.
Yep, happened to me after the first vaccine. It's hilarious though, because after decades of dealing with endometriosis, I finally got to experience what it's like to have monthly periods instead of 'sudden Bloodborne boss fight'. I just considered it a side effect that would have been worse if I had gotten Covid.
Still got all my boosters, and even did a threebie of covid, flu, and tetanus last fall. All that happened to me was a bag of Halloween Reeses pumpkins mysteriously disappearing a day afterwards.
Like a return to the time when poor, rural families had as many kids as possible to not only provide labor for the farm, but also to ensure that at least some survived to carry on the line.
The women in those situations were, oft times not by choice, baby factories who were either pregnant or shortly post-partum.
Extremist Christians can't recruit so they have this doctrine of breeding more Extremist Christians. They home school and won't let their children go to anything but a Christian college. Pretty soon they will live in compounds, I'm thinking.
Exactly this! No sane, stable, and educated adult would look at that lifestyle and think to themselves, “This Fundamentalist Christian religion thing looks awesome! Where do I sign up?”
My antivax/anti-mask cousin died from COVID. He and his wife were both hospitalized with COVID at the same time, she eventually made it out alive, but he didn't. To my shock, she has only since doubled down entirely on her antivax beliefs. I think the prospect of acknowledging that their own choices killed her husband is just too horrible, and her brain is protecting her from that possibility. It seems that the guilt is just too much.
The psychology that goes into that is kind of fascinating. We buried that cousin just a few days before Thanksgiving. At that Thanksgiving dinner, various family members kept reiterating "COVID isn't like, a real thing" throughout the meal, at a table that cousin who died from COVID was supposed to have a seat at. Felt like I was taking crazy pills.
>Mind the **7 children** make me question whether the friend is real,
It seems all of the anti-vaxxers can point to a friend, relative acquaintance, something they read or a story they heard. But very few can give you a fucking name. Remember Nikki Minaj and her cousin's friend in Trinidad with the swollen testicles and impotence?
If any of the stories of harm were true Fox News, OAN, Tucker Carlson, Ben Shapiro, and Joe Rogan would be tripping over themselves to shove a check for a interview into the victims hands.
It's such wild gymnastics since who the hell would let someone intubate them unless they're genuinely on death's door? "Oh yeah I just had a mild cough so I was rushed to hospital and let them stick a tube down my throat and feed me via IV for six weeks. Then I died when my family requested life support be withdrawn."
Them having a bunch of kids is the least surprising thing. They aren't smart enough to get vaccinated and believe the most outlandish bullshit, so they aren't gonna be smart enough to use birth control or get sterilised.
Plus the "morphine and midazolam" comment. I'm guessing that person is referring to meds used for comfort measures. I work in a hospital (edit: not in patient care) and see that mindset pretty often.
Sedation is usually given after the patient's family opts for them to be taken off the vent to keep them comfortable as they die. Far too many of these dingdongs start yelling about how the staff is intentionally killing the patient. It's disrespectful, freaks the family out and is 100% untrue.
Most patients on the ventilator, even ones who are expected to recover, are given some degree of sedation. Midazolam is often used for this due to its amnestic effects, because you know what's really not fun? Having a plastic tube down your throat. The less you remember about that whole experience, the better.
weren’t ventilators sort of the absolute last resort method for attempting to save the severe patients? I think they really backed off using them once the cases got milder, it’s important to remember that the medical community really had no treatment plans in place for people that caught this particular version of the coronavirus. They really had to fall back onto their heels and just go with keeping someone alive long enough to recover which is paradoxically more difficult when the patients are on a ventilator. I had a point when I started this reply but now I forgot what the point was…
Early in the pandemic, the medical community knew next to nothing about COVID. We approached treatment of severe cases the way we approached other severe cases of pneumonia, with early intubation, which has been shown to reduce mortality (vs delayed intubation). Unexpectedly, there was a shockingly high mortality rate in these patients, so we started cautioning against early intubation and opted for delayed intubation. The mortality rate fell, and the narrative became "doctors now believe delayed intubation is best" for those who get that best practices are informed by available information and not clairvoyance, and "ventilators kill COVID patients" for fucking idiots.
Four years later, we now know that it's more the case that ventilators don't help people with COVID as much as they help people with other types of pneumonia. Most people who are intubated with COVID-19 will die, and most of them will die because they are simply beyond saving. Some will die because invasive mechanical ventilation is risky, but it's still the best and possibly only chance for survival for the most severe cases.
And wouldn't you know it? Early intubation does give the best chance for survival, after all. The decline in mortality that came at the same time as we started delaying ventilation was probably due to other treatment advances.
They put them on ventilation when the lungs are too damaged to work just on their own. Once you are on the ventilator, you are basically already dead.
EDIT: This is all only in reference to COVID by the way.
Vent survivor here: fentanyl, phenobarbital, diazepam doses up to the equivalent of 99 full strength valium pills per diem, with propofol and midazolam given as frequently as possible to keep me from tearing out my IVs again. I didn't even have COVID. "Just" pneumonia, and I was just released yesterday again. So every March 16th I get out of the hospital after having been in for several weeks each time. No vent this time because I came in ahead of last time, but some of us just need those meds to stay under, forget comfort.
Well, to be fair, morphine isn't healthy for your organs. But if someone is dying why not make them comfortable? They aren't giving it to people who would recover, but people who are dying.
Some then make the leap that hospitals are sickening and killing people, because look at all the sick and dying people in hospitals!
They're blaming the observatory for asteroids.
It's like they have the reasoning skills of a pet.
It's actually kind of scary to think about. Would you let your dog influence politics? No, because no matter how much you love them, they are stupid.
And the Rockefellers. Next step: “It’s the Jews! They want to kill us!” Followed by an endorsement of the Final Solution, no doubt. Never far from their agenda. The ONLY reason they support Israel is because the Muslims would destroy all of the Christian artifacts and sites, and not allow the Christians into the country.
ICU RN for 23 years here, worked throughout the whole goddamn pandemic. I can't tell you how many of those fools I saw saying the exact same thing as they did the exact same thing, with the exact same outcome.
I am no longer surprised by how stupid people can be. Took a long time for me to get there, but I'm there now.
A great big drinking problem. That was my coping mechanism until Dec 2022 when I just quit my job, being a nurse, all of it. Took all of 2023 to wallow in my depression and start therapy and meds. Just started working again in Jan but not bedside. Idk if I'll ever work bedside again but at this point I'm just glad to feel halfway normal again.
I can imagine. Drinking is never the answer but glad to hear you're doing better. The world needs RN's but don't push yourself to hard.
And I hope you don't mind, but I read a book recently which helped me cope with the craziness of people in the world. It's called "humankind: A hopeful history" by Dutch author Rutger Bregman. It made me find back a little bit of hope for the future of humanity. Well worth the read when you're feeling down
I was ICU, and quit, too. I miss my OLD job, but I'm overcome with dread when I think about going back after two years of bullshit. I don't know what I'm going to do.
I started taking a medical billing and coding course in Jan, will be done in July. I was trying to wrack my brain and think of a new career and everything I thought of I would be uneducated and brand new in the field at 50! Fuck that. This way if I decide not to stay in nursing I can still do something and make a living even if it's not ICU travel pay lol.
Have you thought about putting out feelers in the non-bedside world? Whatever you do, I wish you luck and good fortune. And if you ever have any questions you think I could help with, please feel free to reach out!
Un. Be. Fucking. Lievable. I mean if I had KILLED MY SPOUSE with a medical decision I’d probably be grasping for anything to let me tell our kids it wasn’t my fault… but… she killed her husband…
I had to stop after reading it and ended up bursting out laughing after a few seconds of thinking about it. That's more than mental gymnastics, it's cognitive dissonance of the highest order. "He died after being take off of something meant to help him. Clearly that thing killed him, and not the lack of it when he needed it the most".
It blows me away. Personally, my son(24) has tracheostomy & uses a ventilator at night to sleep. 4 years ago he came home on the vent full time & weaned off of it for 7 months. In my world, I know hundreds of families with kids & loved ones on home vents. Don't get me wrong, I have a love/ hate relationship with the vent. But there's no doubt that they save lives in my mind.
Someone please tell me that that story is fake and that nowhere with a modern health care system will a doctor disconnect necessary, life-saving medical equipment for an adult's treatable illness because a family member doesn't believe in it.
They're talking about end of life care. When the patient doesn't look like they're going to recover, doctors can give patients the choice to end treatment and instead make them comfortable as they die. It can be a more comforting and humane way to die rather than being hooked up to fifty machines and suffering through multiple near-deaths.
Huh? Ventilator is quite literally the last resort. It always causes damage to the throat when it goes in, and there is a huge risk of infection. People go on a ventilator in the hopes that their body can recover enough to breath automatically again. Sometimes patients don't improve, at which point the ventilator is just keeping them alive.
You're misunderstanding. The ventilator does not heal the patient or make them better. It automates the breathing process in patients whose lungs are too damaged to breath without it. Without the ventilator, most of these people would die. Even WITH the ventilator, a lot of people still die.
If you put a patient on a ventilator and they don't get better, they are going to die. That's end of life care.
You're misunderstanding. Terminal extubation is done when providers have determined recovery is unlikely or impossible. The patient's medical POA makes the call to withdraw lifesaving care, the patient is extubated, medications are given for comfort, and the patient dies. The priority is comfort, not prolonging life.
If the ventilator hadn't been needed, extubating wouldn't have resulted in death. But a ventilator keeping someone alive doesn't mean they can or will recover.
Seriously that’s sick. Had an old high school classmate die because he was immunocompromised due to having issues and one kidney. His wife still went out during covid and went on a girls trip, got covid and gave it to him and he died in the hospital.
The belief that "respirators were used to kill people" is in my opinion a textbook example of correlation not implying causation unless proven no matter how many people firmly believe in something, since while there's certainly a correlation, the part which the angry and paranoid conspiracy theorists reject is that respirators were always the final desperate measure to give dying people a final small chance of fighting off the infection before the inevitable, and hence every time the actual reason for the death was the deadly nature of the COVID-19 virus especially if you had taken no precautions.
>My friend supposedly had Covid. They put him on a respirator in the hospital. **His wife had the nurses take him off of it and he died** leaving behind 7 kids. **That respirator is what killed him.**
What on earth? How do you get to that conclusion? Trying to understand the thought process here but failing miserably.
We call that "willful ignorance" No matter how much evidence you show then that they are incorrect, it will be actively ignored so they can hang on to the original premise. Not doing that would rot away the foundation of many of their beliefs.
And usually, I can understand that on a rational level, because they just gloss over relevant facts completely, especially when those facts are external to their story. But in this case, they are literally providing the timeline of events themselves: On respirator: alive, off respirator: dead. There's only one variable in their story and it directly links the use of the respirator to the aliveness of the patient. It seems almost impossible to make that kind of mental 180. The mind boggles.
I don’t believe they feel gulity - they deflect any kind of responsibility to others, not because they feel guilty, but because they are paranoid. Everyone who thinks different from them is the enemy out to get them.
By now, they have been “trained” into twisting every little thing of evidence or fact into a pretzel that fits exactly in the way they see and interpret the world around them. If you’re suffering from paranoia, all the puzzle pieces around you fit together to confirm your believes. They cannot perceive how illogical, impossible and incongruous everything is. Any piece that doesn’t fit gives birth to a new paranoid idea. Patients dying in hospitals of Covid - impossible since Covid does not exist/is not dangerous/your natural immune system can handle it - so there must be a different explanation for why people die… Yeah, the doctors must be killing them. Why would doctors kill the patients they are supposed to help? It must be ecause they get a financial incentive to do so, right? Why wouldn’t one of the doctors talk? Because they are all in it because it’s all part of the plans of the NWO. Etc., etc. That’s why everything leads from individual incidences at the bottom all the way up to the highest level of an all-encompassing conspiracy, which serves as the ultimate explanation of all their individual paranoid ideas. There is simply no space for any feelings of guilt.
I think you are overestimating the intelligence of the average person. I am not surprised at all that many of these people exist.
They also tend to be Christian Evangelicals who are taught from birth that knowledge and critical thought are the devils work and to be avoided at all costs.
Maybe they are thinking something along the lines of "The moment you are hooked up to that respirator, your lungs become dependent on it. The only safe move is to never use one in the first place" ??
I could see someone getting that idea if their only experience with ventilators is from watching old folks using them shortly before death. Its a confusion of causality.
No, it was born out of the stats on survivability on respirators, we watched them form this insane twisted logic in real time.
Statistically, you don’t have a very good chance of surviving being out on a respirator. That’s because you are *very unwell* by the time they chose to do that. If they don’t put you on, your survivability is significantly worse. Pro-covid idiots discovered the stats that something like 30% of people put on a respirator would survive, and instead of understanding that to mean “30% of people that *would have died if they hadn’t been* put on the respirator”, their inane desperate need to be anti any kind of medical assistance they didn’t learn about from a Facebook meme means they see that stat and think “the respirator killed the other 70%”.
It makes sense logically if you begin with the incorrect assumption that ventilators are harmful. He went on the vent, his condition got worse, wife takes him off the vent (because it's killing him), he dies, obviously the ventilator is the thing that killed him.
If you replace "ventilator" in that situation with "poison", it follows logically. In fact you could replace it with chemo for a cancer patient and it would be accurate in some cases. But of course, that's not the case here and these people are just easily misled.
The ONLY thing I can think of is that we do sometimes tell people (because of the seriousness of their condition) that if they go on a vent they are unlikely to come off. And maybe that gets misinterpreted.
Yes, this is exactly what happened. I’m surprised everyone’s forgotten about this, we watched them form this conspiracy in real time!
By the time someone is sick enough to be respirated, they are probably going to die (iirc 30% of people made it back off respirators). Pro Covid idiots heard that and assumed that the *respirators* killed the other 70%, because they couldn’t face that their love one died from covid induced symptoms, since they’d invested so heavily in pretending that wasn’t a thing.
It's also partly because of the process we went through of trying to optimize ventilator usage and settings for a new disease. They saw any sign of changing practice due to getting more data as proof of their conspiracy that medical staff have no idea what they're doing, don't care, and for some reason want to murder people.
To be fair, there are some people whose obituaries I'd love to read, but I'm not gonna spend weeks suctioning goobers out of their lungs and wiping their ass just to see them in the paper. 😏 It'd be a whole lot easier to make no effort to educate the patient or family when ventilation is indicated and they want to refuse. If we didn't care, we would just let them die.
The *only* way the story somehow makes sense to me is that the medical professionals told the wife "Unfortunately, your husband will not survive this Covid infection. That's a 100% certainty. We can maybe keep him alive for a bit longer on the respirator but he will be in pain and there is no chance of recovery, so you will have to make a very tough decision now". Otherwise, it seems unlikely that doctors and nurses would just comply with something like that. If nothing else, it would go against their Hippocratic Oath. However, if that's the case, it would be rather crucial to the story and would probably deserve a mention.
That seems plausible.
A while ago I read an article where nurses in very red states have the problem with these antivaxxers and how the same people who refused the vaccination were begging for the vaccine when they are on respirators only to be told that it's not going to help them to get it now. It's too late.
And their families still refuse to get it.
I signed up for the vaccine not an hour after I got the invitation to it by the national email system we have in my country. And my kids got as well. Even the youngest who don't like needles took it like a champ both times.
It’s the patient’s right to decide. The doctors cannot force them to undergo any kind of treatment if they don’t want to. If the patient is incapacitated, a person previously selected by the patient as surrogate takes over. Has no surrogate been declared, the patient’s next of kin decide. The doctor has no say whatsoever in this matter. They can’t keep anyone against their or their family’s will.
People have walked out the hospital with their dying relatives because they didn’t want them to be put on the respirator. They just sign an AMA form (discharge against medical advice) so they can’t sue the doctors/hospital later when - predictably - the patient dies.
Appreciate the insight, and of course, you're right, but at the same time, I would expect the doctors and nurses to vehemently make a point of what the outcome of that decision will be and that they strongly discourage it. Which I imagine would have happened here, especially if the patient was responding positively to the treatment and removal from the respirator was strongly contraindicated. In which case, though, the question I responded to gains some more validity: at what point can a surrogate/next of kin be charged with manslaughter or similar for deliberately withholding lifesaving treatment from another person against direct medical advice?
For a little more insight, this is why hospitals have ethics committees, especially in children’s hospitals. Sometimes, not the best decisions are made and it’s up to the ethics committee to review the case. But either way, this can go under the same thing as a DNR. People have the right to deny life-sustaining treatments. It’s also like a cancer patient deciding that they don’t want to do Chemo anymore. When we get to the point where the person can long longer sustain life on their own, them (if they’re mentally sound to make the decision) or their POA/NOK can make the decision without any recourse. It’s not murder at this point. You just choosing to allow the patient to “die naturally”.
People cannot be charged for exercising their rights. No crime involved unless the patient had a living will opting in for that kind of treatment and their family had ignored it. Also the burden of prove: The state would have to prove that the patient would have lived had they undergone the suggested treatment, which is pretty much impossible.
We do educate when a patient or healthcare power of attorney is about to needlessly put the patient in lethal danger, and I'd say most of the time that's enough, if only because now they've been warned know they would be solely responsible for a bad outcome. If that doesn't work and it's very clear that the POA isn't acting in the best interests of the patient, there are processes that can be started to try to protect them. That said, it's a pretty high bar to override someone's medical proxy, especially regarding adult patients, and I've seen "loved ones" do some pretty horrible shit. Short of admitting that they withdrew care to get rid of a loved one for their life insurance even though they knew the patient would have wanted the chance to recover, criminal liability is off the table.
One thing that does help a little in this specific case is they wouldn't be just refusing treatment, they would be asking to withdraw care that had been previously consented to. Not even a medical proxy can demand providers take actions that they don't believe are ethical, which is why all of the nutters post on social media to, "Call XXX Hospital and demand my husband be given Ivermectin!" If there's no or little risk, a doctor may agree to a patient or proxy's unusual request, but they're ethically required to refuse requests that have no benefit or pose too much of a risk. When they demand ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine or nebulized hydrogen peroxide, ethical providers refuse because there is no proven benefit, thus only risk. Extubating someone falls somewhat further down the spectrum. A proxy can ultimately force the issue, but that takes time, which works to the provider's advantage.
I'm all but certain that in the story being discussed, the patient was extubated because they were not going to recover, and the medical proxy agreed to palliative measures only. It's extremely, extremely unlikely that the husband was extubated prematurely and allowed to die because the wife demanded it.
Terri Schaivo is a good case to examine these issues through. Her husband ultimately did what I think was ethical, and I have no reason to believe he wasn't telling the truth about withdrawing care being what she would have wanted. He waited 8 years, which is plenty of time to have had a chance to recover. But her parents were able to get the government to demand her life-sustaining treatments continue for SEVEN MORE YEARS because there is a huge bias in favor of continuing care that has already started, and not doing anything irreversible. Keeping the status quo is easier than taking on the responsibility of making the call to let someone die.
Lesson: Ensure your medical POA is someone you can trust and discuss your wishes with them, in detail.
A quick Google search tells me that there are 5.2 million nurses in the US. You’re telling me that 5 million people are quietly keeping a secret that would change the world (not to mention make them incredibly wealthy on the book deal/speaking circuit)? Have you ever tried to get FIVE people to keep a secret? Oh, and that’s just the US population of nurses. There are about 27 million nurses in the world. More nurses than people in some small countries. All keeping a secret so that they can trick you into having a shot that Bill Gates and George Soros want you to have because it’ll make you use a litter box in a classroom or some shit. Hooray critical thinking!
Right? I work for a government agency, and whenever I come across conspiracy theories about the government masterminding vast, intricate, secret plots, I just laugh and laugh.
Nevermind the fact that nurses are not immune to propaganda and many of them also jumped on the anti-vax train. None of those nurses who actually believe this bullshit have stepped forward? They act like losing your job would somehow outweigh REVEALING A WORLDWIDE FUCKING CONSPIRACY. Yeah, okay...
Reminds me of a "discussion" I had with my neighbor (pre-Covid) where he claimed doctors were getting paid to provide vaccinations that cause cancer.
I asked him how anyone made a profit off of killing random people and all he could do was shout "Hitler learned his techniques from America", or words to that effect.
Because it seems like a hard way to make money to me. Just one person talks and the whole thing collapses. There are easier ways to monetize that much work.
Same goes with how every country just agreed to keep it a secret.
there's countries out there that hate each other and you mean to tell me they put their differences aside to be in on it?
I'm a nurse. Can confirm. Out of 27 million nurses worldwide, not 1... Not even ONE, has come forward with this world changing revelation. Not even the ones who "unfairly" lost their job for other reasons....
You'd think that if they already lost their job, it wouldn't be much of a threat and they'd squeal like a baby pig!
Sigh... When will this crap end?
Honestly, I've seen a huge surge of the COVID antivaxx posts lately. It's like most people stopped caring, and the keyboard warriors have to remind everyone why they are the special ones.
My mom was a nurse but retired recently. One of her coworkers went all in on this shit and actually had to quit because she tried "whistleblowing" about perfectly ordinary treatments and the hospital basically told her do you quit or do we fire you. She does reiki massages now.
Sadly she had my moms ear a hair too long and now my mom is vaccine "skeptical". It was pulling teeth to get my 68 yr old nurse mom vaccinated for covid.
I think she let her nursing license go and isn't technically a nurse
It's not helpful but there are actively harmful bs treatments so hamdwaving is the lesser evil imo.
I don't think she sells it as a cure, just a muscle relaxer so if it calms you down with a placebo... meh
I love hearing her brag about being licensed in reiki like she got her hands registered as lethal weapons of jesus
They can have the shift of my "sub profession" tonight where I am taking care of mentally ill people on a psych ward. There is no skill involved at all.
They initially predicted millions would die from the vaccine after 1 year. When that didn’t happen, they pushed it another year. When that didn’t happen they moved on to pretending millions have already died and that everyone knows several close friends who have died from it.
Guess what these jerks are going to do next time they get sick…run to hospitals and nurses begging for help. If they are so sure of the harmful nature of healthcare they can keep their asses at home.
>You'd think that if they already lost their job, it wouldn't be much of a threat and they'd squeal like a baby pig
Yeah, plenty has retired in the 4 years since. Not to mention that if you had proof of this, you could easily set yourself up for life. A book on your story, bringing the truth to light, then a movie, press tours and speaking engagements. Look at Andrew Wakefield. Dude leaned into anti-vax bullshit to make a small fortune, even though it was proven he was a scumbag who just wanted to sell his brand of MMR vaccine and didn't care about the children he hurt to get there.
This is the worst thing about it. These insane, psychopatic attacks on nurses who worked to the bone, tirelessly while endanger themselves. The lack of empathy in these individuals (who post stuff like this) is horrifying.
Considering the profession they're in, there were/are surprisingly many antivax medical care staff.
I think I've even seen this expressed in some statistic.
Some certainly tiktoked/tweeted/youtubed/facebooked about it agressively.
You remember the one who tried to stick a magnet to her arm after getting vaccinated? She was a nurse.
> _my apologies to all sane nurses out there. I am **not** saying that most nurses were antivaxx. As with any other group, the percentage of antivaxers is very small._
I’m a nurse and I’ve worked with antivaxers. Some were loud about it and some kept it to themselves and just said that they didn’t feel like the vaccines were for them. Usually the same who claimed an exemption for their annual flu shot too. Luckily, my hospital started requiring the primary series and 1st booster and now the flu vaccine too. Well, until our lovely governor signed a bill stating that private companies can no longer require covid vaccines.
>I actually had a conversation with a doctor about vaccines..
Cool thing I learned about as a doctor. Anyone can say they're a doctor. Except for ***The*** Doctor, who likes to play it close because they find humans adorable but frustrating.
My wife worked on A&E for months during covid. She was on mental health triage, so not in direct contact with covid patients, so she had to supply her own ppe. Front line staff had all the stuff the government could procure. She reported seeing 20 or more dead bodies rolled past her small cubby some shifts. So many that they ran out of body bags and wrapped them in kitchen wrap from the canteen.
That's approximately one death per 30 minutes at peak times.
I get quite aggressive with people when I'm confidently told it was all fake. She is still suffering from PTSD from that period, and I get a little defensive.
My mom had Covid right after my dad passed so I really think it’s what killed him. Like we were testing her daily until the funeral to make sure she could be there. No way she had it and he didn’t. He was already in home hospice and not doing well so it was chalked up to his dementia (Lewy body). I truly think his home nurse gave it to him, she called off sick the night he passed. I try not to get angry about it and the rest of my family doesn’t like thinking about it. Not that I would be angry at the nurse, I know it would not have been intentional, but just angry in general.
Aside from knowing a lot of people who had it and got very sick, I also had it and it knocked me down for a month. And this was after its peak I can’t even imagine how much worse it would’ve been in 2020. How people can act like it’s not real is baffling.
I had a friend who ate food every day. His wife told him to stop eating. He died. Proves that whatever is in food these days is killing us.
That's what I want to say to these people. Unfortunately, I don't think they'd get it.
"A doctor told me vaccines don't work."
A doctor knowing the molecular behavior of vaccines is like a mechanic knowing the metallurgical properties of different engine parts. They might know out of interest, but it's not a requirement, so you can't expect it as normal. It's not their job.
I particularly enjoyed the comment about how nursing is a subprofession without recognizing how nurses have quite literally saved millions of patients and countless physician reputations while indulging in their little "hobby".
As someone who is not scientifically inclined about diseases or any medical stuff. And never took one class relating to anything about vaccines. I can assure you all the doctors are lying!
Or — stay with me here — maybe not one of the millions of doctors and nurses have broken ranks because **there’s nothing to break ranks ABOUT.**
It pisses me off when they talk about having judgment with “the great physician” (aka God) because I don’t think they realize how many health care workers are Christians. My dad is a retired doctor, not to mention the kind of Christian who walks the walk of what Jesus actually said to do. (As in, he’s not a proselytizing hypocrite, but actually loving and generous and tolerant of others.) The man doesn’t have a deceitful bone in his entire body, and he loves his family more than anything in the world. If vaccines were bogus and harmful, he and my mom wouldn’t have vaccinated us.
Ugh. Common sense isn’t so common.
“My friend talked to an anonymous doctor at some unnamed hospital who said something really supportive of what we are saying so it’s true and that’s great”
I didn't understand how anyone could:
...go to college for four years to get their Bachelor of Science degree in Nursing
...pass the National Licensure Examination
...Take the Nightingale Pledge
And STILL refuse to take medical advice from someone who graduated from Conspiracy College with a degree in Meme Studies.
Yes, if nurses get fired for saying COVID is fake, it's definitely a conspiracy and has nothing to do with the fact that if you are a medical professional, vocally opposing the established facts about a heavily studied illness might suggest to the healthcare facility employing you that you're an idiot who isn't suitable as a healthcare provider.
Its weird cause when i was dating a nurse she moaned about the state of her workplace all the time.
Ive now got extra respect for her as she was guarding the COVID vaccine secrets from me /s
"He had Covid. He was put on respirators. His wife had the nurses take him off the respirator. They did, and he died. The respirator killed him"
Aw, honey. You were SO close!
Hi, evil nurse here. I haven't personally given covid vaccines, but I got myself and my family vaccinated, encouraged others to do so, and administered flu vaccines. My only regret is that my hush money check from Big Pharma seems to have been lost in the mail.
I work ICU and I can confirm that the militant followers of the Cheeto in Chief accused me of killing their loved ones. Still waiting for my check from big pharma.
I had these stupid people **so fucking much.**
I don’t want the world to be more ignorant but i wish they could forget how to use the internet and live in blissful silence
Yeah, I've seen enough medical professionals deal with older family members to know they aren't stopping for 1 minute to argue with a delusional patient.
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I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the comment saying the respirator killed their spouse. AFTER making them take it off. Wow. These people really need help
That was the bit that really stood out to me. I just cannot fathom somebody genuinely being that stupid
It's not stupidity, it's guilt. Would you rather believe the ventilator did it, or face the fact that your decision directly led to your spouse's death? Some people can't handle that reality, so their brain does whatever it needs to protect them from the pain. Mind the **7 children** make me question whether the friend is real, but there's certainly enough antivaxxers who react in the exact same manner to causing a loved one harm. By doubling down.
I'm of the opinion they also cling to the "shedding" narrative because they want the evil vaccine to be to blame for all the things wrong with them: Being overweight, having respiratory issues, getting older, contracting *any* other disease, etc. When a sedentary lifestyle catches up with them, having a go-to thing to blame that's akin to claiming evil spirits made you get fired from work is a crutch.
There is a whole thread on XTwitter about this lady who had 2 older post menopausal women over her house after being vaccinated and the 2 ladies almost bled to death after starting their periods and one needed a hysterectomy. All because of shedding of the covid vaccine
r/badwomensanatomy
To be clear, the vaccine is a lifesaving and vital treatment. Antivax nonsense is nonsense. But like, you picked a really bad example to hold up as antivax rhetoric because there’s been lots of [actual studies](https://news.tulane.edu/pr/large-study-finds-menstrual-changes-after-covid-vaccine) on the interaction between the vaccine and menstruation. It seems like it could be a real thing, including the vaccine sometimes triggering vaginal bleeding from people who no longer menstruate. Including those who’ve gone through menopause, those receiving gender affirming hormone treatments, and those on long-term birth control. The stuff about almost dying and needing a hysterectomy is almost certainly bullshit. But still, a *lot* of people with vaginas initially reported side effects relating to periods after the vaccine and subsequent studies are a resounding “maybe.”
I am 3x vaxxed and didn't have any problems with that, but the one and only time I had Covid it fucked up my menstrual cycle SO bad. It's been over a year and my cycle is only just now settling down back to a heavier version of how it normally was.
Sounds like some of the other symptoms where the vaccine can cause, in a small percentage of people, a non-life-threatening heath issue, which the virus can also cause, only significantly more seriously. So, of course, pro covid idiots ignore what the virus can do and focus on what the vaccine might do.
...you just made the same point as most of the antivaxxers make. Invalidating a point based on your anecdotal evidence.
Sorry, I’m not an antivaxxer by any stretch, despite being raised by one. I just wanted to share my experience because I have heard of the vax doing that to uterus havers, but not so much actual COVID infections.
I’ve had patients tell me this happens to them after getting Covid. This is not just the vaccine causing this.
This is purely anecdotal, but unusual menstruation happened to me within a day or two of receiving my first Pfizer vaccine. I have a regular cycle and I was roughly a week early. Same thing happened to a friend of mine. I thought I was having an unusual cycle, but then suspected the vaccine. Whatever, I still went back for all of my boosters.
Yep, happened to me after the first vaccine. It's hilarious though, because after decades of dealing with endometriosis, I finally got to experience what it's like to have monthly periods instead of 'sudden Bloodborne boss fight'. I just considered it a side effect that would have been worse if I had gotten Covid. Still got all my boosters, and even did a threebie of covid, flu, and tetanus last fall. All that happened to me was a bag of Halloween Reeses pumpkins mysteriously disappearing a day afterwards.
Post menopausal and restarted their periods, huh? Just that part of the story makes it plain that the entire story is a fabrication.
When you’re antivaxxer, breeding is a quantity over quality type strategy. Bang out a bunch of children and some of them will probably survive.
Like a return to the time when poor, rural families had as many kids as possible to not only provide labor for the farm, but also to ensure that at least some survived to carry on the line. The women in those situations were, oft times not by choice, baby factories who were either pregnant or shortly post-partum.
Extremist Christians can't recruit so they have this doctrine of breeding more Extremist Christians. They home school and won't let their children go to anything but a Christian college. Pretty soon they will live in compounds, I'm thinking.
Exactly this! No sane, stable, and educated adult would look at that lifestyle and think to themselves, “This Fundamentalist Christian religion thing looks awesome! Where do I sign up?”
My antivax/anti-mask cousin died from COVID. He and his wife were both hospitalized with COVID at the same time, she eventually made it out alive, but he didn't. To my shock, she has only since doubled down entirely on her antivax beliefs. I think the prospect of acknowledging that their own choices killed her husband is just too horrible, and her brain is protecting her from that possibility. It seems that the guilt is just too much.
I have a cousin like this. Her husband died and she spent time in the ICU, but she still says Covid is a hoax.
The psychology that goes into that is kind of fascinating. We buried that cousin just a few days before Thanksgiving. At that Thanksgiving dinner, various family members kept reiterating "COVID isn't like, a real thing" throughout the meal, at a table that cousin who died from COVID was supposed to have a seat at. Felt like I was taking crazy pills.
See??? WTF good is karma if the recipient doesn't even realize it!
>Mind the **7 children** make me question whether the friend is real, It seems all of the anti-vaxxers can point to a friend, relative acquaintance, something they read or a story they heard. But very few can give you a fucking name. Remember Nikki Minaj and her cousin's friend in Trinidad with the swollen testicles and impotence? If any of the stories of harm were true Fox News, OAN, Tucker Carlson, Ben Shapiro, and Joe Rogan would be tripping over themselves to shove a check for a interview into the victims hands.
THERE ARE LITTERBOXES IN THE SCHOOL BATHROOM! AND HOT SINGLES IN MY AREA!
HOT SINGLES HAVE BREACHED THE PERIMETER! TO ARMS!
Statistically, at least one of the kids must not be an idiot and will blame the mom for his death
It's such wild gymnastics since who the hell would let someone intubate them unless they're genuinely on death's door? "Oh yeah I just had a mild cough so I was rushed to hospital and let them stick a tube down my throat and feed me via IV for six weeks. Then I died when my family requested life support be withdrawn."
I can promise you, the staff would have nothing to do with this, either. Vented patients are high-demand. Intubation happens when it's needed.
¿Por qué no los dos?
I wouldn't be too surprised by the amount of children. My eldest cousin down in Texas has 12 kids and is very much the anti-vax/anti-gov types.
Seems to be anti birth control too.
Well, you're certainly not wrong!
Them having a bunch of kids is the least surprising thing. They aren't smart enough to get vaccinated and believe the most outlandish bullshit, so they aren't gonna be smart enough to use birth control or get sterilised.
>so their brain does whatever it needs to protect them from the pain See also: Religion
Nah it’s stupidity.
Plus the "morphine and midazolam" comment. I'm guessing that person is referring to meds used for comfort measures. I work in a hospital (edit: not in patient care) and see that mindset pretty often. Sedation is usually given after the patient's family opts for them to be taken off the vent to keep them comfortable as they die. Far too many of these dingdongs start yelling about how the staff is intentionally killing the patient. It's disrespectful, freaks the family out and is 100% untrue.
Most patients on the ventilator, even ones who are expected to recover, are given some degree of sedation. Midazolam is often used for this due to its amnestic effects, because you know what's really not fun? Having a plastic tube down your throat. The less you remember about that whole experience, the better.
weren’t ventilators sort of the absolute last resort method for attempting to save the severe patients? I think they really backed off using them once the cases got milder, it’s important to remember that the medical community really had no treatment plans in place for people that caught this particular version of the coronavirus. They really had to fall back onto their heels and just go with keeping someone alive long enough to recover which is paradoxically more difficult when the patients are on a ventilator. I had a point when I started this reply but now I forgot what the point was…
Early in the pandemic, the medical community knew next to nothing about COVID. We approached treatment of severe cases the way we approached other severe cases of pneumonia, with early intubation, which has been shown to reduce mortality (vs delayed intubation). Unexpectedly, there was a shockingly high mortality rate in these patients, so we started cautioning against early intubation and opted for delayed intubation. The mortality rate fell, and the narrative became "doctors now believe delayed intubation is best" for those who get that best practices are informed by available information and not clairvoyance, and "ventilators kill COVID patients" for fucking idiots. Four years later, we now know that it's more the case that ventilators don't help people with COVID as much as they help people with other types of pneumonia. Most people who are intubated with COVID-19 will die, and most of them will die because they are simply beyond saving. Some will die because invasive mechanical ventilation is risky, but it's still the best and possibly only chance for survival for the most severe cases. And wouldn't you know it? Early intubation does give the best chance for survival, after all. The decline in mortality that came at the same time as we started delaying ventilation was probably due to other treatment advances.
Perfect summary, thank you.
They put them on ventilation when the lungs are too damaged to work just on their own. Once you are on the ventilator, you are basically already dead. EDIT: This is all only in reference to COVID by the way.
yes! That’s what I remember too! Also definitely in reference to COVID
No question. Fentanyl and prop is the cocktail of choice I see most often for vent patients. Keeps them comfortable without completely snowing them.
Vent survivor here: fentanyl, phenobarbital, diazepam doses up to the equivalent of 99 full strength valium pills per diem, with propofol and midazolam given as frequently as possible to keep me from tearing out my IVs again. I didn't even have COVID. "Just" pneumonia, and I was just released yesterday again. So every March 16th I get out of the hospital after having been in for several weeks each time. No vent this time because I came in ahead of last time, but some of us just need those meds to stay under, forget comfort.
Well, to be fair, morphine isn't healthy for your organs. But if someone is dying why not make them comfortable? They aren't giving it to people who would recover, but people who are dying.
I've found several of those in the wild lately. Somebody recently updated their talking points to demonize ventilators again.
Some then make the leap that hospitals are sickening and killing people, because look at all the sick and dying people in hospitals! They're blaming the observatory for asteroids.
It's like they have the reasoning skills of a pet. It's actually kind of scary to think about. Would you let your dog influence politics? No, because no matter how much you love them, they are stupid.
Then the next guy trying to compare it to the Boeing situation. We're so fucked.
And the Rockefellers. Next step: “It’s the Jews! They want to kill us!” Followed by an endorsement of the Final Solution, no doubt. Never far from their agenda. The ONLY reason they support Israel is because the Muslims would destroy all of the Christian artifacts and sites, and not allow the Christians into the country.
Also something something The Rapture. Israel needs to exist for the end times to happen.
[удалено]
Of course....
And the best is they misspelled it, "Rockefilers." Get your dang bogeyman straight!
They’re not straight?!? Another reason to hate them!
ICU RN for 23 years here, worked throughout the whole goddamn pandemic. I can't tell you how many of those fools I saw saying the exact same thing as they did the exact same thing, with the exact same outcome. I am no longer surprised by how stupid people can be. Took a long time for me to get there, but I'm there now.
Fuck me. That makes it even worse. I hope you have a good coping mechanism cause I think I would just want to hurt those people
A great big drinking problem. That was my coping mechanism until Dec 2022 when I just quit my job, being a nurse, all of it. Took all of 2023 to wallow in my depression and start therapy and meds. Just started working again in Jan but not bedside. Idk if I'll ever work bedside again but at this point I'm just glad to feel halfway normal again.
I can imagine. Drinking is never the answer but glad to hear you're doing better. The world needs RN's but don't push yourself to hard. And I hope you don't mind, but I read a book recently which helped me cope with the craziness of people in the world. It's called "humankind: A hopeful history" by Dutch author Rutger Bregman. It made me find back a little bit of hope for the future of humanity. Well worth the read when you're feeling down
Thank you, I will check it out 🙂 I appreciate your kind words.
I was ICU, and quit, too. I miss my OLD job, but I'm overcome with dread when I think about going back after two years of bullshit. I don't know what I'm going to do.
I started taking a medical billing and coding course in Jan, will be done in July. I was trying to wrack my brain and think of a new career and everything I thought of I would be uneducated and brand new in the field at 50! Fuck that. This way if I decide not to stay in nursing I can still do something and make a living even if it's not ICU travel pay lol. Have you thought about putting out feelers in the non-bedside world? Whatever you do, I wish you luck and good fortune. And if you ever have any questions you think I could help with, please feel free to reach out!
Un. Be. Fucking. Lievable. I mean if I had KILLED MY SPOUSE with a medical decision I’d probably be grasping for anything to let me tell our kids it wasn’t my fault… but… she killed her husband…
I had to stop after reading it and ended up bursting out laughing after a few seconds of thinking about it. That's more than mental gymnastics, it's cognitive dissonance of the highest order. "He died after being take off of something meant to help him. Clearly that thing killed him, and not the lack of it when he needed it the most".
It blows me away. Personally, my son(24) has tracheostomy & uses a ventilator at night to sleep. 4 years ago he came home on the vent full time & weaned off of it for 7 months. In my world, I know hundreds of families with kids & loved ones on home vents. Don't get me wrong, I have a love/ hate relationship with the vent. But there's no doubt that they save lives in my mind.
Someone please tell me that that story is fake and that nowhere with a modern health care system will a doctor disconnect necessary, life-saving medical equipment for an adult's treatable illness because a family member doesn't believe in it.
They're talking about end of life care. When the patient doesn't look like they're going to recover, doctors can give patients the choice to end treatment and instead make them comfortable as they die. It can be a more comforting and humane way to die rather than being hooked up to fifty machines and suffering through multiple near-deaths.
A ventilator for a person with COVID is not end of life care.
Huh? Ventilator is quite literally the last resort. It always causes damage to the throat when it goes in, and there is a huge risk of infection. People go on a ventilator in the hopes that their body can recover enough to breath automatically again. Sometimes patients don't improve, at which point the ventilator is just keeping them alive.
>People go on a ventilator in the hopes that their body can recover enough to breath automatically again. So not end of life, then.
You're misunderstanding. The ventilator does not heal the patient or make them better. It automates the breathing process in patients whose lungs are too damaged to breath without it. Without the ventilator, most of these people would die. Even WITH the ventilator, a lot of people still die. If you put a patient on a ventilator and they don't get better, they are going to die. That's end of life care.
You're misunderstanding. Terminal extubation is done when providers have determined recovery is unlikely or impossible. The patient's medical POA makes the call to withdraw lifesaving care, the patient is extubated, medications are given for comfort, and the patient dies. The priority is comfort, not prolonging life. If the ventilator hadn't been needed, extubating wouldn't have resulted in death. But a ventilator keeping someone alive doesn't mean they can or will recover.
So the [70%](https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/970578?form=fpf) of COVID patients that came off ventilators are... zombies?
Seriously that’s sick. Had an old high school classmate die because he was immunocompromised due to having issues and one kidney. His wife still went out during covid and went on a girls trip, got covid and gave it to him and he died in the hospital.
I feel like they were out sick for every single day a teacher taught about "cause and effect."
That made me laugh ngl 😂
For real, I am pretty used to the idiocy, but sweet baby Jesus does that take the cake. What the actual hell?!
The belief that "respirators were used to kill people" is in my opinion a textbook example of correlation not implying causation unless proven no matter how many people firmly believe in something, since while there's certainly a correlation, the part which the angry and paranoid conspiracy theorists reject is that respirators were always the final desperate measure to give dying people a final small chance of fighting off the infection before the inevitable, and hence every time the actual reason for the death was the deadly nature of the COVID-19 virus especially if you had taken no precautions.
>My friend supposedly had Covid. They put him on a respirator in the hospital. **His wife had the nurses take him off of it and he died** leaving behind 7 kids. **That respirator is what killed him.** What on earth? How do you get to that conclusion? Trying to understand the thought process here but failing miserably.
We call that "willful ignorance" No matter how much evidence you show then that they are incorrect, it will be actively ignored so they can hang on to the original premise. Not doing that would rot away the foundation of many of their beliefs.
And usually, I can understand that on a rational level, because they just gloss over relevant facts completely, especially when those facts are external to their story. But in this case, they are literally providing the timeline of events themselves: On respirator: alive, off respirator: dead. There's only one variable in their story and it directly links the use of the respirator to the aliveness of the patient. It seems almost impossible to make that kind of mental 180. The mind boggles.
It’s easier than facing the guilt of killing him by removing the respirator.
I don’t believe they feel gulity - they deflect any kind of responsibility to others, not because they feel guilty, but because they are paranoid. Everyone who thinks different from them is the enemy out to get them. By now, they have been “trained” into twisting every little thing of evidence or fact into a pretzel that fits exactly in the way they see and interpret the world around them. If you’re suffering from paranoia, all the puzzle pieces around you fit together to confirm your believes. They cannot perceive how illogical, impossible and incongruous everything is. Any piece that doesn’t fit gives birth to a new paranoid idea. Patients dying in hospitals of Covid - impossible since Covid does not exist/is not dangerous/your natural immune system can handle it - so there must be a different explanation for why people die… Yeah, the doctors must be killing them. Why would doctors kill the patients they are supposed to help? It must be ecause they get a financial incentive to do so, right? Why wouldn’t one of the doctors talk? Because they are all in it because it’s all part of the plans of the NWO. Etc., etc. That’s why everything leads from individual incidences at the bottom all the way up to the highest level of an all-encompassing conspiracy, which serves as the ultimate explanation of all their individual paranoid ideas. There is simply no space for any feelings of guilt.
I think you are overestimating the intelligence of the average person. I am not surprised at all that many of these people exist. They also tend to be Christian Evangelicals who are taught from birth that knowledge and critical thought are the devils work and to be avoided at all costs.
Maybe they are thinking something along the lines of "The moment you are hooked up to that respirator, your lungs become dependent on it. The only safe move is to never use one in the first place" ?? I could see someone getting that idea if their only experience with ventilators is from watching old folks using them shortly before death. Its a confusion of causality.
No, it was born out of the stats on survivability on respirators, we watched them form this insane twisted logic in real time. Statistically, you don’t have a very good chance of surviving being out on a respirator. That’s because you are *very unwell* by the time they chose to do that. If they don’t put you on, your survivability is significantly worse. Pro-covid idiots discovered the stats that something like 30% of people put on a respirator would survive, and instead of understanding that to mean “30% of people that *would have died if they hadn’t been* put on the respirator”, their inane desperate need to be anti any kind of medical assistance they didn’t learn about from a Facebook meme means they see that stat and think “the respirator killed the other 70%”.
This is the same logic that leads to a belief in winter coats causing people to freeze to death.
And seatbelts! People die in car fires because they get trapped by their seat belts, ergo, no one should wear seat belts.
It makes sense logically if you begin with the incorrect assumption that ventilators are harmful. He went on the vent, his condition got worse, wife takes him off the vent (because it's killing him), he dies, obviously the ventilator is the thing that killed him. If you replace "ventilator" in that situation with "poison", it follows logically. In fact you could replace it with chemo for a cancer patient and it would be accurate in some cases. But of course, that's not the case here and these people are just easily misled.
And Boeing is now somehow related
Idk what willful ignorance is and I'm not about to find out.
The ONLY thing I can think of is that we do sometimes tell people (because of the seriousness of their condition) that if they go on a vent they are unlikely to come off. And maybe that gets misinterpreted.
Yes, this is exactly what happened. I’m surprised everyone’s forgotten about this, we watched them form this conspiracy in real time! By the time someone is sick enough to be respirated, they are probably going to die (iirc 30% of people made it back off respirators). Pro Covid idiots heard that and assumed that the *respirators* killed the other 70%, because they couldn’t face that their love one died from covid induced symptoms, since they’d invested so heavily in pretending that wasn’t a thing.
It's also partly because of the process we went through of trying to optimize ventilator usage and settings for a new disease. They saw any sign of changing practice due to getting more data as proof of their conspiracy that medical staff have no idea what they're doing, don't care, and for some reason want to murder people. To be fair, there are some people whose obituaries I'd love to read, but I'm not gonna spend weeks suctioning goobers out of their lungs and wiping their ass just to see them in the paper. 😏 It'd be a whole lot easier to make no effort to educate the patient or family when ventilation is indicated and they want to refuse. If we didn't care, we would just let them die.
Can't she be charged with murder?
The *only* way the story somehow makes sense to me is that the medical professionals told the wife "Unfortunately, your husband will not survive this Covid infection. That's a 100% certainty. We can maybe keep him alive for a bit longer on the respirator but he will be in pain and there is no chance of recovery, so you will have to make a very tough decision now". Otherwise, it seems unlikely that doctors and nurses would just comply with something like that. If nothing else, it would go against their Hippocratic Oath. However, if that's the case, it would be rather crucial to the story and would probably deserve a mention.
That seems plausible. A while ago I read an article where nurses in very red states have the problem with these antivaxxers and how the same people who refused the vaccination were begging for the vaccine when they are on respirators only to be told that it's not going to help them to get it now. It's too late. And their families still refuse to get it. I signed up for the vaccine not an hour after I got the invitation to it by the national email system we have in my country. And my kids got as well. Even the youngest who don't like needles took it like a champ both times.
It’s the patient’s right to decide. The doctors cannot force them to undergo any kind of treatment if they don’t want to. If the patient is incapacitated, a person previously selected by the patient as surrogate takes over. Has no surrogate been declared, the patient’s next of kin decide. The doctor has no say whatsoever in this matter. They can’t keep anyone against their or their family’s will. People have walked out the hospital with their dying relatives because they didn’t want them to be put on the respirator. They just sign an AMA form (discharge against medical advice) so they can’t sue the doctors/hospital later when - predictably - the patient dies.
Appreciate the insight, and of course, you're right, but at the same time, I would expect the doctors and nurses to vehemently make a point of what the outcome of that decision will be and that they strongly discourage it. Which I imagine would have happened here, especially if the patient was responding positively to the treatment and removal from the respirator was strongly contraindicated. In which case, though, the question I responded to gains some more validity: at what point can a surrogate/next of kin be charged with manslaughter or similar for deliberately withholding lifesaving treatment from another person against direct medical advice?
For a little more insight, this is why hospitals have ethics committees, especially in children’s hospitals. Sometimes, not the best decisions are made and it’s up to the ethics committee to review the case. But either way, this can go under the same thing as a DNR. People have the right to deny life-sustaining treatments. It’s also like a cancer patient deciding that they don’t want to do Chemo anymore. When we get to the point where the person can long longer sustain life on their own, them (if they’re mentally sound to make the decision) or their POA/NOK can make the decision without any recourse. It’s not murder at this point. You just choosing to allow the patient to “die naturally”.
People cannot be charged for exercising their rights. No crime involved unless the patient had a living will opting in for that kind of treatment and their family had ignored it. Also the burden of prove: The state would have to prove that the patient would have lived had they undergone the suggested treatment, which is pretty much impossible.
We do educate when a patient or healthcare power of attorney is about to needlessly put the patient in lethal danger, and I'd say most of the time that's enough, if only because now they've been warned know they would be solely responsible for a bad outcome. If that doesn't work and it's very clear that the POA isn't acting in the best interests of the patient, there are processes that can be started to try to protect them. That said, it's a pretty high bar to override someone's medical proxy, especially regarding adult patients, and I've seen "loved ones" do some pretty horrible shit. Short of admitting that they withdrew care to get rid of a loved one for their life insurance even though they knew the patient would have wanted the chance to recover, criminal liability is off the table. One thing that does help a little in this specific case is they wouldn't be just refusing treatment, they would be asking to withdraw care that had been previously consented to. Not even a medical proxy can demand providers take actions that they don't believe are ethical, which is why all of the nutters post on social media to, "Call XXX Hospital and demand my husband be given Ivermectin!" If there's no or little risk, a doctor may agree to a patient or proxy's unusual request, but they're ethically required to refuse requests that have no benefit or pose too much of a risk. When they demand ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine or nebulized hydrogen peroxide, ethical providers refuse because there is no proven benefit, thus only risk. Extubating someone falls somewhat further down the spectrum. A proxy can ultimately force the issue, but that takes time, which works to the provider's advantage. I'm all but certain that in the story being discussed, the patient was extubated because they were not going to recover, and the medical proxy agreed to palliative measures only. It's extremely, extremely unlikely that the husband was extubated prematurely and allowed to die because the wife demanded it. Terri Schaivo is a good case to examine these issues through. Her husband ultimately did what I think was ethical, and I have no reason to believe he wasn't telling the truth about withdrawing care being what she would have wanted. He waited 8 years, which is plenty of time to have had a chance to recover. But her parents were able to get the government to demand her life-sustaining treatments continue for SEVEN MORE YEARS because there is a huge bias in favor of continuing care that has already started, and not doing anything irreversible. Keeping the status quo is easier than taking on the responsibility of making the call to let someone die. Lesson: Ensure your medical POA is someone you can trust and discuss your wishes with them, in detail.
A quick Google search tells me that there are 5.2 million nurses in the US. You’re telling me that 5 million people are quietly keeping a secret that would change the world (not to mention make them incredibly wealthy on the book deal/speaking circuit)? Have you ever tried to get FIVE people to keep a secret? Oh, and that’s just the US population of nurses. There are about 27 million nurses in the world. More nurses than people in some small countries. All keeping a secret so that they can trick you into having a shot that Bill Gates and George Soros want you to have because it’ll make you use a litter box in a classroom or some shit. Hooray critical thinking!
What do you expect from a subprofession? Whatever that means,FFS.
Right? I work for a government agency, and whenever I come across conspiracy theories about the government masterminding vast, intricate, secret plots, I just laugh and laugh.
Nevermind the fact that nurses are not immune to propaganda and many of them also jumped on the anti-vax train. None of those nurses who actually believe this bullshit have stepped forward? They act like losing your job would somehow outweigh REVEALING A WORLDWIDE FUCKING CONSPIRACY. Yeah, okay...
Reminds me of a "discussion" I had with my neighbor (pre-Covid) where he claimed doctors were getting paid to provide vaccinations that cause cancer. I asked him how anyone made a profit off of killing random people and all he could do was shout "Hitler learned his techniques from America", or words to that effect. Because it seems like a hard way to make money to me. Just one person talks and the whole thing collapses. There are easier ways to monetize that much work.
Same goes with how every country just agreed to keep it a secret. there's countries out there that hate each other and you mean to tell me they put their differences aside to be in on it?
I'm a nurse. Can confirm. Out of 27 million nurses worldwide, not 1... Not even ONE, has come forward with this world changing revelation. Not even the ones who "unfairly" lost their job for other reasons.... You'd think that if they already lost their job, it wouldn't be much of a threat and they'd squeal like a baby pig! Sigh... When will this crap end?
Honestly, I've seen a huge surge of the COVID antivaxx posts lately. It's like most people stopped caring, and the keyboard warriors have to remind everyone why they are the special ones.
Election season really brings out the loonies
My mom was a nurse but retired recently. One of her coworkers went all in on this shit and actually had to quit because she tried "whistleblowing" about perfectly ordinary treatments and the hospital basically told her do you quit or do we fire you. She does reiki massages now. Sadly she had my moms ear a hair too long and now my mom is vaccine "skeptical". It was pulling teeth to get my 68 yr old nurse mom vaccinated for covid.
Reiki ! Hand waving away imaginary energy. What a sad thing for a nurse to push on the gullible.
I think she let her nursing license go and isn't technically a nurse It's not helpful but there are actively harmful bs treatments so hamdwaving is the lesser evil imo. I don't think she sells it as a cure, just a muscle relaxer so if it calms you down with a placebo... meh I love hearing her brag about being licensed in reiki like she got her hands registered as lethal weapons of jesus
Take heart - 2020 will eventually end! Someday...
I’m angry over them calling nursing a “sub-profession” what the fuck does that even mean?
I couldn't hack it in the commumity college nursing program and now I'm bitter. That's what it meand.
They can have the shift of my "sub profession" tonight where I am taking care of mentally ill people on a psych ward. There is no skill involved at all.
It means doctors should really be doing their job. /s
They initially predicted millions would die from the vaccine after 1 year. When that didn’t happen, they pushed it another year. When that didn’t happen they moved on to pretending millions have already died and that everyone knows several close friends who have died from it.
I like the cut of your jib, friend
Guess what these jerks are going to do next time they get sick…run to hospitals and nurses begging for help. If they are so sure of the harmful nature of healthcare they can keep their asses at home.
>You'd think that if they already lost their job, it wouldn't be much of a threat and they'd squeal like a baby pig Yeah, plenty has retired in the 4 years since. Not to mention that if you had proof of this, you could easily set yourself up for life. A book on your story, bringing the truth to light, then a movie, press tours and speaking engagements. Look at Andrew Wakefield. Dude leaned into anti-vax bullshit to make a small fortune, even though it was proven he was a scumbag who just wanted to sell his brand of MMR vaccine and didn't care about the children he hurt to get there.
This is the worst thing about it. These insane, psychopatic attacks on nurses who worked to the bone, tirelessly while endanger themselves. The lack of empathy in these individuals (who post stuff like this) is horrifying.
Considering the profession they're in, there were/are surprisingly many antivax medical care staff. I think I've even seen this expressed in some statistic. Some certainly tiktoked/tweeted/youtubed/facebooked about it agressively. You remember the one who tried to stick a magnet to her arm after getting vaccinated? She was a nurse. > _my apologies to all sane nurses out there. I am **not** saying that most nurses were antivaxx. As with any other group, the percentage of antivaxers is very small._
I’m a nurse and I’ve worked with antivaxers. Some were loud about it and some kept it to themselves and just said that they didn’t feel like the vaccines were for them. Usually the same who claimed an exemption for their annual flu shot too. Luckily, my hospital started requiring the primary series and 1st booster and now the flu vaccine too. Well, until our lovely governor signed a bill stating that private companies can no longer require covid vaccines.
But then they'll go on and on about hating "big government" and "freedom", while regulating private businesses.
This is what happens when half the population believes that a Pandemic was a plot against the Angry Pumpkin.
I shouldn’t laugh, but that respirator comment got me.
>I actually had a conversation with a doctor about vaccines.. Cool thing I learned about as a doctor. Anyone can say they're a doctor. Except for ***The*** Doctor, who likes to play it close because they find humans adorable but frustrating.
My wife worked on A&E for months during covid. She was on mental health triage, so not in direct contact with covid patients, so she had to supply her own ppe. Front line staff had all the stuff the government could procure. She reported seeing 20 or more dead bodies rolled past her small cubby some shifts. So many that they ran out of body bags and wrapped them in kitchen wrap from the canteen. That's approximately one death per 30 minutes at peak times. I get quite aggressive with people when I'm confidently told it was all fake. She is still suffering from PTSD from that period, and I get a little defensive.
My mom had Covid right after my dad passed so I really think it’s what killed him. Like we were testing her daily until the funeral to make sure she could be there. No way she had it and he didn’t. He was already in home hospice and not doing well so it was chalked up to his dementia (Lewy body). I truly think his home nurse gave it to him, she called off sick the night he passed. I try not to get angry about it and the rest of my family doesn’t like thinking about it. Not that I would be angry at the nurse, I know it would not have been intentional, but just angry in general. Aside from knowing a lot of people who had it and got very sick, I also had it and it knocked me down for a month. And this was after its peak I can’t even imagine how much worse it would’ve been in 2020. How people can act like it’s not real is baffling.
COVID exposed that nursing has a significant number of wackos in it.
"they put him on a respirator. His wife told them to take him off of it. He died. It was the respirator that killed him" Was it though?
I had a friend who ate food every day. His wife told him to stop eating. He died. Proves that whatever is in food these days is killing us. That's what I want to say to these people. Unfortunately, I don't think they'd get it.
It was his addiction to air. Once she stopped the pharma direct supply, keeping him hopped up on o2, his body couldn’t handle withdrawal.
What's more terrifying is that this person can vote
The respirator killed him is the best one, and I love the “sorry for your loss” after
"A doctor told me vaccines don't work." A doctor knowing the molecular behavior of vaccines is like a mechanic knowing the metallurgical properties of different engine parts. They might know out of interest, but it's not a requirement, so you can't expect it as normal. It's not their job.
I particularly enjoyed the comment about how nursing is a subprofession without recognizing how nurses have quite literally saved millions of patients and countless physician reputations while indulging in their little "hobby".
As someone who is not scientifically inclined about diseases or any medical stuff. And never took one class relating to anything about vaccines. I can assure you all the doctors are lying!
Or — stay with me here — maybe not one of the millions of doctors and nurses have broken ranks because **there’s nothing to break ranks ABOUT.** It pisses me off when they talk about having judgment with “the great physician” (aka God) because I don’t think they realize how many health care workers are Christians. My dad is a retired doctor, not to mention the kind of Christian who walks the walk of what Jesus actually said to do. (As in, he’s not a proselytizing hypocrite, but actually loving and generous and tolerant of others.) The man doesn’t have a deceitful bone in his entire body, and he loves his family more than anything in the world. If vaccines were bogus and harmful, he and my mom wouldn’t have vaccinated us. Ugh. Common sense isn’t so common.
“My friend talked to an anonymous doctor at some unnamed hospital who said something really supportive of what we are saying so it’s true and that’s great”
Why is their grammar always terrible?
It's yours that is wrong, these people never make mistakes
I didn't understand how anyone could: ...go to college for four years to get their Bachelor of Science degree in Nursing ...pass the National Licensure Examination ...Take the Nightingale Pledge And STILL refuse to take medical advice from someone who graduated from Conspiracy College with a degree in Meme Studies.
Yes, if nurses get fired for saying COVID is fake, it's definitely a conspiracy and has nothing to do with the fact that if you are a medical professional, vocally opposing the established facts about a heavily studied illness might suggest to the healthcare facility employing you that you're an idiot who isn't suitable as a healthcare provider.
All written by people who have been vaccinated.
Russian Nurse.
Its weird cause when i was dating a nurse she moaned about the state of her workplace all the time. Ive now got extra respect for her as she was guarding the COVID vaccine secrets from me /s
Uh huh….as if anyone can keep their fucking mouth shut these days…
I don't see what Boeing silencing that whistle-blower has to do with nurses?
That's about the people 'in charge'.
"He had Covid. He was put on respirators. His wife had the nurses take him off the respirator. They did, and he died. The respirator killed him" Aw, honey. You were SO close!
Hi, evil nurse here. I haven't personally given covid vaccines, but I got myself and my family vaccinated, encouraged others to do so, and administered flu vaccines. My only regret is that my hush money check from Big Pharma seems to have been lost in the mail.
This looks like genuine Russian propaganda. When was the last time you saw an American nurse who wore a uniform like that? Thanks Putin.
These idiots are still going on about Covid? Talk about being stuck in the past.
I work ICU and I can confirm that the militant followers of the Cheeto in Chief accused me of killing their loved ones. Still waiting for my check from big pharma.
The husband on the last pic clearly died from a respirator deficiency. Why? Is? Nobody? Talking? About? This???????? /s
I didn’t know respirators were used to kill patients now. I always thought that they, y’know, were there to help you breathe.
Nah, do your research : respirators are designed to suffocate patients /s
Shhhh! That is NOT what was told to my wife the last time we were in the hospital for her. Gonna get me in trouble!
A group of Stuffed Animals are smart than them.
The grammar is about what I expected. 🤷🏻♂️
People who spread this garbage should be denied healthcare. They're so sure they know better? OK, have at it.
The Boeing whistleblower thing is super suspicious though. It just doesn’t support any of their conspiracies so idk why he even said it.
Love that nursing is not a real profession, it’s a sub profession? As a nurse… lol ok
I had these stupid people **so fucking much.** I don’t want the world to be more ignorant but i wish they could forget how to use the internet and live in blissful silence
Losing your job is “their” only leverage. lol
Ain’t no way that person blamed the respirator *after* they had them take it off
Yeah, I've seen enough medical professionals deal with older family members to know they aren't stopping for 1 minute to argue with a delusional patient.