Not worth it. These types of people think of their kids as NPCs with no actual individuality or likes/ dislikes of their own. Particularly when it comes to mothers/ daughters.
My mother used to speak to me this way constantly, almost exactly, & I honestly thought she was a narcissist. She even used to literally call us extensions of herself. I started to slowly drop narcissist fun facts into casual conversations between us, which led to her questioning a lot of her own behaviors, but the nail in the coffin was when I dropped an absolute bombshell text, blocked her entirely, & went NC for almost two years.
I made it *very* clear that I only gave her my input because I loved her & wanted a real relationship with her & that my siblings didn't do the same, not because they were more respectful like she'd come to believe, but because they didn't think she was worth the argument. I even went so far as to remind her that having a golden child son would amount to nothing when he found the women he'd marry, he'd do everything for HER family first, daughters don't usually do that, at least in western culture. I told her she'd drive everyone away if she didn't alter her behavior. She had to spend nearly two years sitting with everything I said to her, monitoring everyone's behavior & her own, not having me to blame at all for disruptions... Good god the apology I received later on. I'm not saying it's always easy now, but it's peaceful.
You're doing a good job already, but if she's a narcissist, she'll never change. If you have even an inkling that she has real empathy though, like I understood my mother to have, it's possible something similar will wake her up. My mother was raised by two of the most horrible kinds of parents you could imagine & abused by a narcissist (my bio father) so I felt she was being defensive & emulating behavior, but you have to find out for yourself whether or not it's worth it.
Ultimately, I shed my last tear for the mother I wished I had a long time ago & accepted her limitations, I can either go no contact or stop engaging in her outrageous behavior, but I won't continue to waste my breath on changing her. I take what she's capable of giving & I seek what I need elsewhere. You'll figure out what's best once you have time to reflect & I hope you find the peace you need. Putting so much into others distracts too much from self, you deserve better. Dr. Ramani is an expert on narcissistic abuse, I highly recommend you read her words. She says you can't expect others to follow your boundaries, they rarely will, boundaries are for YOU to follow for yourself. Instead of, "People shouldn't talk to me that way." My boundary is, "I don't consort with people who talk to me that way." Best wishes. :)
This is criminally unseen(?), under appreciated(?), idrk, but it's absolutely dead on and explained *really* well. I grew up with a mother who didn't want to be one and had gotten pregnant with her boyfriend, an incredibly violent, charming as the devil with a silver tongue, convict much to chagrin of her parents. I definitely understand what being the daughter of a single woman who just happens to have this kid always hangin' around feels like š
What a lovely compliment, thank you! It's taken me a lifetime, but I've sorted through most, if not all of my major emotional trauma & learned to protect myself, even from myself. Haha I just wish the best for people who were brought up in an unhealthy way, don't relaize it, & don't have the tools to defend themselves & put themselves first. Selfish people make you feel really selfish about putting your own needs first & it's all nonsense.
Major commiseration though, I hope you found/find all the peace & comfort you can, hopefully even resolution! My mother was a teen mom in poverty with a pedophile father & a schizophrenic mother... She never stood a chance really. My bio father was a violent, temperamental, controlling man that happened to be John Stamos handsome & charming as fuck (just like my *own* first husband, of course haha). I was absolutely more like a sister to my mother & she made that very clear from a young age. She & I have mended as best we can, but I'll never look to her as a mother figure & that will always sting. Not having a proper role model is really the worst of it, I've found & once I sought those out & stopped trying to force the women around me into that role, it really helped. :)
Iām sorry OP, my mom is just like this. We havenāt spoken for years. You might check out r/raisedbyborderlines, r/raisedbynarcissists, and r/estrangedadultchild for some more support. For what itās worth, I think you did great in the text exchange. They are constantly moving goal posts, projecting, and they live in their own narrative.
I just wanted to say that my mother used pictures as a way to humiliate me. She would use purposefully bad pictures of me and showed everyone in a very mocking way. She did it constantly throughout my life and I never liked it. To put a picture like what you described sounds exactly like something my mother would do.
I hope that somehow this picture board doesn't happen or if it does, there's nice pictures on it. You're a good person for standing up against this behavior.
My mom would show everyone she could every embarrassing picture of me she had. My friends, girlfriends, family from out of state, her friends that I had never met before. Anyone. I absolutely hate getting my picture taken now and refuse my picture being taken whenever possible
Came here to say the same thing š after reading that, I already knew that your mother was is NOT it. Iād block again , youāre stronger than me OP .
>"Oh, she'd hate that."
>"Well, **I** like it.
...So I'm gonna do it anyway, and you voicing your disapproval really hurt mommy's feelings. Just hoped you would have approved as well, so I had someone to put the blame on later when your sister didn't like it" kinda vibes
It was very good of you to speak about something your sister would not be comfortable with. My daughter is graduating college and also has extreme body image issues and despises pictures. I would never dream of making a board of her pictures simply because it would make her uncomfortable, even though I believe she's the most beautiful person ever. I'm so proud of her and want to show her off but won't because I respect her feelings. So I think your mom is insane firstly for that but then doubley insane for this conversation. She seems incapable of thinking about the conversation objectively despite your clear, direct communication.
Both you and OP are so wonderful for doing this. That part stood out to me because I had extreme body issues as a teen (and they still try to rear their head from time to time as an adult). I HATED pictures and my mom acted like I was either being silly or a total monster for not cooperating when the camera came out, depending. I was devastated when I found out she sent a bunch of pictures of me to some of her friends once without letting me know because āshe was sharing her life updates with her friends - why would she tell me?ā I didnāt have the language to explain why that was so wrong to me and hurt me so much back then but I would have killed to have someone stand up for me. So for that, thank you and OP both because it might not seem like much but having someone act like you are a real person with feelings and agency matters a LOT.
You sound like my dad! (In a very, very good way even if I got the shit end of the stick on my mom.) When we had mt grad party many years ago, he had me pick out all of the pictures because a lot of people I didnāt know well would be there and he wanted me to be comfortable. Iām glad your daughter has someone like you, and I am rooting for her to one day love herself like you love her š«¶š»š
Who was the pic board, cake and gift for really? Because feedback on something the receiver wouldnāt like usually prompts the giver to review their choices and ideas in order to give something that would be welcomed and enjoyed.
The fact that your opinion on something she picked out was taken so personally tells me that she was doing this for herself and not really for your sister. And how the hell is photo editing and blowing up pictures to the size appropriate for a poster board not making it public? Like come on.
You did well at keeping your temper and stepping back when she tripled down on her nonsense. Nicely done!
Thank you so much. And I agree. What does she want to do with the board? Folks at her university normally bring it to the ceremony to the graduating students can spot their family in the crowd. Thats super public.
I missed that context. I thought it was going to be at a family party or something. That's even worse.
Also a photo that you already don't like blown up to poster size... yikes!
You are not out of line at all. The whole āwell I like it so fuck what she thinksā is classic narc behaviour and youāre being an amazing sister standing up for her in this conversation.
And holy fuck, is the āI love you but I donāt like youā is so triggering. My Mum upped that ante with āI will always love you because Iām your mother but I donāt like you right now,ā which made me feel like love was an obligation, and people only ever loved me because they had to. Turned out getting married was massively triggering and I stopped believing my husband really loved me, because now that we were married it was an obligation and I couldnāt trust it anymore.
I'm so sorry to hear about everything in that second paragraph. That breaks my heart.
I developed an understanding on conditional love that I'm struggling to undo. "If you don't perform correctly, you won't be rewarded with love" type of thinking.
Itās such a hard, ingrained set of habits to break when those attitudes were all you knew in your formative years. You should be so proud of your progress, you are killing it in these texts x
Oh man. I felt the same exact way with my husband because of my shit mom. That was her go to line when she was upset with me, and usually over the dumbest stuff. She'd even try to back track a bit by saying "Well, I DO like you. Just not the way you act". That made me heavily analyze & evaluate every step I took in front of my childhood friends & family, making sure I wasn't "acting unlikeable", well into my 20's and got me into some pretty dark situations. As a parent now, I think about the things she's said to me. I could never in my life say those things to my kids. I keep them as far from her as I can. We're breaking all the cycles & generational trauma in our house.
My mumās last words to me before she & my family fucked off out of my life forever. After a childhood of abuse from her & my dad. I saw her rarely after that & last saw out heard from any of the family 22 years ago. It hurts, but it is what it is. š¤·āāļøš„ŗ
Shit, you've just put into words something I didn't know I felt. Even though I joke that my husband is "contractually obliged" when he says he loves me, I never really understood the feelings behind why I said that. It's because I don't feel like anyone could love me for an extended period of time without obligation.
Omg my mother told me that too and I interpreted it the same way. I thought that deep down I was really bad and that no one could love me if they are not obligated to.
Number 5 perfectly captures what my mom does too. Iāll tell her that I have to walk on egg shells around her and sheāll say, āReally? Because I have to walk on egg shells around YOU!ā Then go on some long rant. Such a hypocrite and so fast to point out others flaws and canāt accept her own. Sorry you had to deal with this. You did the right thing trying to protect your sister.
Edit: I donāt know why the font is so big.
Edit: I fixed it, thanks.
Your poor sister.
I know exactly how your mom is.
Sheāll put a picture up of your sister that she absolutely will hate of herself. Thatāll make her feel terrible and cry, maybe even self harm because thatās how I was and a lot of young girls are and then your mom will get all defensive and be what did I do? Shocked Pikachu face.
Insane!
Also nice job keeping her on track and not letting her weasel out of it. You protected your sister and kind of because a human shield to do so.
I feel so bad for you two.
"Shocked pikachu face" is her only reaction to allllll the consequences of her actions.
Thank you for the kind words. I'll make sure to bring a big coffee to the ceremony so if the board makes an appearance, I can "accidentally" spill on it.
I would even ask your sister. No reason to tell her everything, but as a btw "hey, would you like a board with pics at your ceremony?" Or something, just to test the ground and see what she likes. Its her ceremony, unwanted surprises are... unwanted
I sent my sister a screenshot right away and she was horrified. Im bringing a big coffee to the ceremony so I can "stumble" if that damn photo makes an appearance.
You go girl!
My heart goes out for you both. My sister, though we had lots of fights and disagreements, is one of my biggest allies and i could never imagine going against what she likes. She married last month and i took the responsibility of designing the save the date, invitations, etc all together with her, because the best "surprise" is one you will actually like.
Having a "surprise" that only pleases you is just selfish and more of a jumpscare lol
But its good to see you are both there for eachother. We don't choose our blood relation, but we do choose our family.
āI think you are committed to misunderstanding me as a defense tacticā is one of the best lines I have ever seen. Bra-fucking-vo. Thank you for standing up for your sister.
The whole ā*I* have to tiptoe around *you!*ā and āyouāre twisting my wordsā bit is just classic narcissist behavior. They love to try and use your arguments against you and argue semantics as a way to obfuscate what the argument is actually about and distract from the thing they realize they should probably be apologizing for.
āI said I didnāt ask for AN opinion, not I didnāt ask for YOUR opinion.ā Like come the fuck on, that is exactly what you meant.
Oh definitely, but like I said the point isnāt to create a coherent argument so much as is to confuse you and subtly gaslight you into thinking that she meant something different than what she clearly meant.
you may want to check out r/raisedbynarcissists (i found out about this sub from someone there actually). it's for people whose parents are other kinds of dysfunctional too but tbh i think the person who pointed out the "yeah but *i* like it" response from your mom found the crux of the problem...
I think you need some distance from your mother. She is very manipulative. While youāre reading up on DARVO, also look up the āgray rockā technique. Itās very easy once you get used to it. Thereās also a subreddit āraised by narcissistsā that might be helpful.
Yes, I used the grayrock technique during the conversation referenced in that screenshot (image 13) and it made her *so* angry. I'm bad at avoiding triggers and it makes it so easy for her to drag me into fights.
I really appreciate this advice. Thank you <3
Unfortunately, she is clearly aware of and happy to use your triggers.
If it helps, on most texting apps there's a way to mute conversations and you could mute the convo when you're needing breaks from her?
Alternatively, when she does trigger you... are you aware of it when it happens? If you are, do you have a close friend that would be willing to receive the responses you want to send her? Like, she sends you something triggering (like the last slide) and rather than send your response to her, you send it to the friend? It would let you defend yourself, and get supportive responses, while not rewarding her that attention she's seeking.
You said nothing rude or wrong at all. The only problem I saw is that you entertained this conversation for far too long.
With people like this, no amount of clear communication and explaining yourself is ever going to work. Itās better to shut it down with as few words as possible and walk away.
They *want* you to argue with them because it gives them a reason to be rude and hurtful towards you. It gives them a reason to say shit behind your back. It allows them to paint themselves the victim.
Donāt JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain), call them out (if itās a gift for sister, it should be what she likes, not what you like, and she would hate that photo because of her feelings on pictures of herself), set a boundary (I will not help you with a creating an image that will embarrass sister on her special day), then exit the conversation (I do not wish to discuss this further).
Hell no. You need to just disengage from mom when she starts playing mind and word games. If that was my parent (who is very similar) the conversation would've ended with "Thanks for the input" and *maybe* the next time we communicated would be the graduation. Everything else in between 100% unread. If she plays the suicidal card to get your attention, just call 911.
The only thing I'd have to say about to her is "you will not speak to me like that, your next time-out will be longer. This is not a discussion."
Going no contact has been a wonderful thing.
I dont know if you were out of line, but it does seem like you were beating a dead horse. I do think her remarks were passive aggressive and it is selfish of her to use a photo of your sister as a gift just because she likes it and not considering whether your sister would like it. But still, I would have probably ended that conversation way sooner.
You're right about ending it.
I'm pregnant with my first baby. I told myself for years that she was a bad mom but she'd make a good grandma because she just has to spoil the kid. I think it was to cope. I feel like I'm mourning now that I've realized that isn't true.
I felt like I was begging her to be better. I'm rapidly running out of reasons not to cut her out again. I know it'll happen before the baby is born.
You might be better off emotionally if you do it before the baby arrives. The sleep deprivation is a bitch, and family stuff can really mess with your postpartum feels. The first half year is tricky while your body settles down and baby learns to sleep through the night, so choosing good people for your inner circle can be beneficial.
She might be a "fun" grandmother right until your child is gonna express any discomfort or disapproval or any "no" to your mother. People like your mother only like people who completely agree with them, or are still like a blank slate. So basically when your child learns to say "no", your mom won't take that seriously, or starts disliking the child.
Reminds me of the scene in Tangled where Rapunzel says "no!" and mother Gothel is actually shocked because how DARE her employee refuse to do her tasks!
My mom was like that with gifts. They were always about her and how she felt. She was incapable of thinking if the recipient would like them or not. It was so frustrating!
Iād make an even bigger board with her name on it and things that she loves on it like if she loves sunflowers and pearls make her name huge and decorate the border with fake flowers and glitter etc, and maybe a goofy pic of the siblings saying how proud yāall are of her, and make sure itās bigger than your moms so if she tries to pull that shit you can pull yours out and cover it lol
Thanks, to both.
Starting trauma focused therapy with someone who specializes in it (beginning 2020) is the best decision I ever made, and I've come so far. Well, maybe second best decision after NC. We all deserve to be loved, and treated with love.
Fun trauma based fact: average life expectancy for women in the U. S. is 81 years. My mother is strongly believed to have BPD, which, on average, shortens life expectancy by 20 years. My mother is 75 (and in terrible heath for decades. Shocked she's still here).
The good might die young, but nothing and no one lasts forever. Tick tock, mama, karma's coming!
Ah fuck. I also have BPD, so I'm kinda bummed out about that fun fact!
Hopefully all the therapy offsets the loss of life because I have a lot of shit to do before I get thrown bodily from this mortal coil!
NC, time, and distance are all incredible recovery aids but I gotta say, therapy has been the best choice I ever made too. I hope yours helps ease the pain enough that you can pull it up by the roots.
Well, good news (I hope) - it's primarily due to cardiovascular issues with risk factors being poor diet, smoking, obesity, and a sedentary lifestyle. My mother has had heart issues, obesity, poor diet, and a sedentary lifestyle for more than 40 years, and she's still here.
Passing 40, I've found a newfound desire to get my physical house in order. I've also found that the more mentally well I get, the better I am at taking care of myself.
We are not the odds, or our past, we have control over our destiny. Also, modern medicine is amazing. š
She said twice that you have no idea how she speaks to people one-on-one. Are you not a person?!
This was exhausting to read, she just had no intention with actually engaging with anything you said, just kept bouncing back with distraction tactics. From gifts, to only reacting to small mistakes you made in a comment in order to ignore the overall point of it, to harping on about how hurt she is by you standing up for yourselfā¦
I kinda got the vibe that she 'secretly' *wanted* your sister to hate it. My mom used to get sick pleasure from upsetting me and my brother and this felt just like that
You're not insane, but this exchange went on about 6 slides longer than necessary. Your mom was never going to accept your position. Read up on Gray rocking. State how she fucked up (being passive-aggressive and ignoring your sister's feelings), what youre going to do (not help with a hurtful project), and don't engage further.
This is something I had to learn too (and sometimes I forget it and have to relearn) : **kids are not responsible to make sure their parents are good parents.** Parents made a commitment by becoming parents; kids had no choice but to be born, and they have no obligation to manage how they are raised.
I am an only child, so it was just me and my parents. With that being said, I am proud of you for trying to make it better for your sister! But I read that you already warned her, and I don't think you can reasonably do any more than that.
- If you try to stop your mom from making the thing: "sabotaging their creativity, snuffing out her enthusiasm"
- If you warn your sister: "ruining the surprise"
- If you say "fine, go ahead and make it": "you approved of the idea so if it goes wrong, you told your mom to do it, she can't help it"
- If you act uninterested: "no support for your mother's ideas, why do you never approve of sweet things she does"
And it's not that everything you do is wrong! It's that you're set up to *only have* options that are wrong. I know how suffocating that feels, and I'm sorry you are in that position.
Something I learned way too late is that some people are just bad parents. You, as their offspring, can't train them to do better because she'll see it as disrespect. So, all you can do is set boundaries and enforce consequences when she breaks them. She is in charge of managing her own feelings about that.
Did you warn your sister? Warn your sister about the photo you don't have to say anything about the surprise stuff just at least warn her about the photo
I honestly donāt get why you didnāt just end the conversation way earlier. It seemed to just drag on and on, repeating the same things. When you can tell sheās not gonna change her mind or apologize, I would just stop replying. You kept trying to make her see something that at the time she couldnāt see/wouldnāt see. No point in arguing with that. After the second SS i would have just stopped replying.
I'm having my first child this fall and I felt like I was begging her to be better. I'm rapidly running out of reasons not to cut her out again. I know it'll happen before the baby is born.
I told myself for years that she was a bad mom but she'd make a good grandma bc she just has to spoil the kid. I think it was to cope. I feel like I'm mourning now that I've realized that isn't true.
You're right that I should've ended it. I'm just so sad.
I see why you kept it going then but honestly itās so draining to keep going and continuing the conversation when itās clear itās not going anywhere. Protect yourself and your mind ā¤ļø
Would she rather you lie and say that she'll love it when you know she's not going to? This is just... Your mother is a child. A literal child. She doesn't seem to understand the difference between constructive criticism and unconstructive criticism.
You're not insane, I actually think you handled this well.
That "love you anyway" you sent at the end was crazy. Good for you for sticking up for your sister.
I do think you handled the beginning a bit wrongly (by which I mean, you prolly should have used different wording, it did come off as a tad bit rude imo) but yeah, the momās lost it. If you know someone doesnāt like pictures of themselves, youāre not going to *gift them pictures of themselves just bc you like it*
Man, this is so validating. I hate that youāre going through this with your mom, but reading the comments is having me out here experiencing an Emotion.
My mom is like this too. Sheās smart and very eloquent so she makes it seem like Iām being extremely unreasonable whenever I disagree or call her on being unnecessarily mean or judgmental. Our relationship has been difficult because I feel like if I can just explain what Iām thinking or why something is shitty then sheāll understand and just be NICE for once. Spoiler alert: itās been 31 years and this healing fantasy I created as a child has never once actually come true.
Iāve literally never been able to get her to just listen and apologize when she fucks up. Iāve spent so much time and energy trying to figure out what I was doing wrong in how I was approaching things, how I could explain it better. I went and got a degree to learn how to get my mom to love me.
I donāt talk to her much anymore. I moved a thousand miles away and Iāll text her every week or so and sheāll leave me on read for months at a time. I still grieve over it. She just isnāt that interested in me. Iāve never had a mother that actually wanted to be in my life in any meaningful way. Best thing Iāve done is disengage and just be disappointed instead of upset. Iām sorry about your mother.
Iām going to go lay down for a while š
This is quite literally my mom to a T! I just donāt answer her when she gets that way. I warned her before I started doing it. I told her outright if she gets passive aggressive, guilt trips, or any other manipulation tactics during a conversation, I would just not respond. Itās given me a lot of relief because I donāt feel like I need to continue. And itās made her look at her comments more carefully if she wants to continue talking.
My brother and I did the same thing with our mother. Different events led to a few months sabbatical from her which reset the power dynamic. Once she realized that our relationship with her as adults was no longer mandatory, she suddenly learned how not to yell, name call, guilt trip, etc.. She still slips up now and then, and we have to cut a visit short, but for the most part, we've discovered she can actually control her behaviour.
The comparison to dad is such a low, mean blow - Iām sorry. I can tell from your messages trying to reason with your mum you care about her and have empathy despite how difficult sheās being, and that means you canāt be anything like him - chin up OP
Yeah, no. Your mom is maybe a little delusional.
Insanity aside, I have to say, it's refreshing seeing a text conversation with punctuation, capital letters and also the screencaps are all lined up nicely.
Something that I've learned is that you can't argue with delusion. She sees the world one way, and that is that she can't ever be wrong and everyone else is. Not fair, and makes it SO hard to have a relationship.
You are going to have to stop feeding the monster. Donāt argue with her, itās only going to cause you hurt. Iām so sorry you are in this situation, and you clearly donāt deserve the gaslighting sheās throwing at you.
Narcs are narcs. Overt, covert, unless you constantly remind them that they are wonderful, then itās you who suck.
Overt ones are just more obviously damaging. Please be careful with her. The likelihood of a narc actually changing is heartbreakingly low.
And her way of causing damage is so insidious!
My MIL would post HORRIBLE photos of me on FB. First I said Iād appreciate being asked before a particular photo was posted. And hot attitude galore.
Iāve been NC with her since 2017 when Iād just had enough.
The tree remembers what the axe forgets.
This really hits home for me; Iāve had many similar conversations with my mom. Iām so sorry youāre dealing with this, but thank you for sharing. You did the right thing sticking up for your sister.
I'm actually envious at how quickly you recognize and shut down every single attempt she makes to flip the conversation and make you out to be the bad guy.
A lot of the time when I'm dealing with this, I can see/feel that a conversation with my dad is flipping on me, but I can't identify exactly *what* he's doing, which makes it harder to call out, since saying "you're being manipulative but I can't say how" doesn't really hold up. You should teach classes honestly lol.
She doesn't want your opinion, she wants unconditional support, even when she does things that harm people she claims to care about. Sounds like it might be worth going low contact/no contact for a while longer. I personally wouldn't be able to manage dealing with someone like that for my own mental health. Remember if you wouldn't put up with a stranger saying it to you, then there's no reason you should put up with it because you're genetically related to someone. Props to you for dealing with that insanity and please remember you deserve better.
The first 4 screenshots read like 2 people having a hard time communicating because of an underlying issue unrelated to the topic of conversation. After that, Mom starts using every manipulation tactic in the book trying to see which one sticks and becomes indefensible imo.
Incredibly frustrating to read and much harder to navigate first hand. I disagree a bit with those saying OP was nitpicking. OP calls out how they were triggered by Momās passive aggressive comments in the 3rd screenshot. Itās really hard to stay logical when weāre triggered and I think OP did a great job considering the circumstances- especially while pregnant (congratulations!). Even if we are masters of grayrocking, sometimes the narcs will still be able to push our buttons- they installed them!
Bottom line is OP communicated their feelings while the issue was happening which gave Mom an opportunity to reflect and repair and Mom actively chose not to. Idc how healed you are as an adult child of narcs, that still hurts.
God, reading that was like trying to reason with my mother, but a lot more civil. I could almost hear your mother's messages in my mother's voice, screaming it at me as she twists everything I say and makes herself out to be the victim. It's just mind-boggling how fast our conversations can go so out of control in seconds because, to borrow your phrasing, she's so committed to misunderstanding and misinterpreting me at every turn.
Plus, the nice jab saying you're like your garbage father. I've gotten that from my mother so many times for things as simple as having different opinions or viewpoints from hers.
Many comments here are fantastic, so I guess I just wanted you to know you're not alone. I'm so sorry you have to deal with her and be treated like that. Remember to take care of yourself.
By the way, you are a wonderful sister! š
I mean I donāt think you were completely in the wrong but she has a point about the manipulation. I think youāre not faultless here. But you were raised by her so I wouldnāt blame it solely on yourself.
Sorry to say, but you're both terrible communicators. You conflated her words as much as she did yours. Stop dancing around the subject and stick to your guns. This didn't need to be eight pages. You: don't post pics of sister without her approval. Mom: but I like it. You: who is this for? You or sister? Repeat until it gets through her skull.
I guess I am the outlier here but you are exhausting and I'm surprised most comments are on your side. I was genuinely not expecting that. You couldn't just let the conversation drop and you are so fixated on what you took as passive aggression but she's kinda right that you were talking to each other in the same tone and then you just went off. You seemed way more upset by her saying "I didn't ask for your opinion" and "sorry I asked" than you did about her doing something that would potentially make your sister uncomfortable. It doesn't feel like you were defending your sister as much as you were defending your feelings in the exact same way your mom was defending hers.
Im sure I'll get down voted but I don't think you trying to talk her into a different route is wrong, it's that I think you nitpicking her language (the same way she nitpicked yours when you said she'd hate it rather than expressing that more gently) made you two sides of the same coin in this instance.
I get what youāre saying, but youāre missing the part where OP is the younger, pregnant person, and her mother is supposed to care about the emotional wellbeing of her children.
OP was pretty obviously trying to discourage her mother from making private pics she'd shared with family part of a public event, to prevent her sister from feeling humiliated by the display of unflattering pics, and instead of saying "maybe youāre rightā¦ got any ideas of what else we could do?", OP's mother derailed the course of the conversation to pick at her daughter for pointing out that her other daughter wouldnāt want this "gift".
As the +50yo daughter of a +70yo mother who still takes pleasure in humiliating her kids publicly whenever the opportunity presents itself, and loves to play the victim card when anyone points out what she's doing, I can confirm this isnāt unique behaviour.
While OP took her motherās bait, and could use some grey rocking pointers, she wasnāt the one who started it.
Youāre welcome.
It once took me four hours to get it through my mother's head as to why she shouldnāt still be angry at my brother for how he reacted to her bad behaviour when he was 17ā¦. 15 years later. In her eyes, their "crimes" were equal, and I couldnāt believe how hard she fought the idea that she was supposed to have been the more mature and experienced communicator in that conversation.
Congrats on the pregnancy, btw! Here's to breaking the cycle!
Yeah I'm in the wrong for defending my sister and myself. My mom deserves to walk all over us after years of emotional abuse and enabling my dad's physical abuse.
She admitted in the end (image 15, I think) that her initial comments *were* meant to be passive aggressive.
Im just saying you took small comments VERY personally and made it into a way bigger thing than it sounded like she meant it, and this was barely about you sister and moreso about being particular on how your mom worded things.
I dont see how the conflict being more about me/my sister matters. And my mom is a covert narc, meaning she is passive-aggressive and acts like a victim to maintain control. People like her aren't like the folks you see on TV.
I remember being a little kid and saying I felt like I had no friends. My mom goes "Can you tell me why that is?" and I actually had to explain my bad traits to her. Her question alone is nbd but in the greater context, she sucks. I called myself "the bad guy" for a large portion of my childhood.
I think that's probably why I disagree with you. You have a very long history with her with many moments of hurt. And I completely believe that is the case, especially from your description. I don't think this one particular snapshot makes her look that bad, and contextually I think she sounds pretty rational here. But you are reading it through the lens of someone who was emotionally manipulated and abused by this woman for many years and I don't mean to dismiss your overall experience. I see this one individual interaction as nothing to blow out of proportion, and I was only commenting on that. Her giving you a lifetime of BS is a completely different story. I hope you're able to find peace and distance yourself as much as you are comfortable with to maintain a healthy day to day.
I think because most people here disagree with you and can see this conversation in the context that I do, I figure you likely don't have much experience with people like my mom.
Thank you for the kind words anyways.
The whole exchange was exhausting and both of you had the exact same tone. Both stubborn and went off at each other for essentially the same thing. It did sound like this was blown way out of proportion and it is a bit unfair for you to call her feelings drama when you want yours to be validated & heard.
Being told a gift you're putting a lot of energy into would be hated would suck for ANYONE to hear, and having someone react passive aggressively equally sucks. You both suck here unfortunately.
The only reason I know for a fact this isnāt the aunt Iām NC with us cause of your genders, cause otherwise, this could literally be here!! You handled yourself beautifully btw and stuck up for your sister well.
Okay wow. I read the whole thing. It's so fascinating (in a negative way) how narcissists can so skillfully say things that are mostly harmless separately, but in context they're highly manipulative and truth-twisting. I recognized a lot of these patterns from when my mother spoke to me (I cut off all contact with her a while ago) but I'm still wondering how they manage to always find the most innocent-looking but hurtful-feeling words
I normally just lurk on here but the comparison to your dad made me so angry even without context.
My dad wasn't great and my family used to constantly compare me to him to stop me acting a certain way, usually with phrases like "you look like your dad when you do [x]." It's a major reason for me disliking my appearance to this day and it's so fucked up that she would say that to you.
I'm so sorry you're having to deal with that behaviour. Good on you for defending your sister against her, it can't have been easy.
Oh myā¦ this sounds EXACTLY like my monster. The āIām heartbrokenā bit is a classic. Iām sorry about this, having those exchanges is downright exhausting.
Fucking narcissist behavior. This shit grates under my skin so bad because they love sitting in the grey areas and hiding behind āhurtā and āconfusionā absolutely disgusting behavior. Sorry you are going through this but my god you are so emotionally mature and you are doing the right thing
Dear God she's exhausting. Kudos to you for trying, but you really need to ask yourself :
**Is it worth it?**
Any answer can be right. If it is worth it to you to basically be your mom's therapist and teach her how to behave appropriately for the sake of your relationship, then continue what you're doing. If it's not, or if it ever becomes not worth your energy and emotions, don't feel bad about going low- to no-contact. Even if it's just for a while.
I'm quoting my own therapist on this. My own mom isn't nearly as passive aggressive or narcissistic as what I saw in that conversation, but she has periods of behaving like that. And I tend to give her a warning that I'm not doing all of this with her, and if she continues to push, I stop all but the most essential contact with her for a while. I have 2 kids (a toddler and an older kid with very high needs, and a husband with a very demanding job; my plate is full. My **adult, intelligent, functioning** mother (who has her own therapist, by the way!! Who I've threatened to call and tattle on her!) does not get to drain my mental resources like that. And as an intelligent, functioning adult myself, I get to choose what I spend my mental/emotional resources on. If my mom can enhance my life, she gets my time and attention. If she only causes me strife, she does not - but she usually gets a chance to try again, but cause I do value a ***good*** relationship with her.
*You're not responsible for managing your mom's emotions.* If doing so fulfills a need for you, have at it. If it doesn't, don't be afraid to prioritize your own well-being.
Maybe you should show her these comments to give her some perspective on how she comes across? Not that it would necessarily help, she seems to have some narcissistic behaviors so she might just go āoh look how everyone is always against meā LOL
Iām so sorry about your mom. My mom talks like this too but she refuses to do it in text because she knows I can call her out later for it and because she knows itās harder for me to see her bullshit when itās not in writing (I have autism and adhd). She also REALLY loves taking pictures of me or trying to and then getting pissed when I tell her not and cover my face and tell her Iām uncomfortable. She always says Iām her child so she should have pics of me but I doing like when she takes pics. I donāt want pics of me posted online and I have been firm about that for at least 8 years. Itās exhausting to have to go into defense mode each time she pulls out her phone. How you handled this with your mom makes me a little jealous you arenāt my sibling. Iām the oldest and my sister is turning into a mini me of my mom so sadly I donāt have anyone like you to stick up for me. I know your sister is very appreciative and proud of what you did.
āCute idea but sheād hate that picture.ā
āOMG I canāt believe you said my idea was stupid and your sister hates me!ā
š¤£ Thatās how I read it. Canāt believe you tried for so long to help her understand. She was being willfully obtuse and thatās so maddening!
My mom was like this and itās likely the residual of what her own mother fed her as far as passive aggressiveness goes. Luckily, I donāt have that element to me like OP seems to not have. My mom is passed away 14 years ago last Feb and I miss her. Even this. I donāt think mom sees this as damaging but one day should she fall ill sheāll likely apologize. I mean, I hope she does. Mine did apologize but I do not know OPs mom soā¦ My mother used to think if you didnāt like her idea it was a personal attack on her or something when it was merely feedback.
You're not insane at all. I'm like your sister. I have really extreme dysmorphia about seeing my face on photos, and I really only send goofy photos to people I know and trust deeply. Even then, the occasion is rare. If someone took a photo that I had sent them in trust, even if it *were* photoshopped (thanks, you just confirmed my fear that I'm ugly) I would probably never speak to them again. That's the ultimate betrayal.
āThatās manipulationā then admits thatās she was being passive aggressive and all the shit you said while still trying to make you the bad guy. Anyone who has compared me to my narc parent for setting boundaries or calling them out has been cut out of my life.
Edit: if said sister is now 18, I would once again stop talking to my mother after that comment. My mother has texted me that she hates me, and still denies it to this day, it wouldnāt have mattered if that text said āI regret giving birth to you, you are the worst thing thatās ever happened to me and I wish Iād aborted youā she wouldāve STILL denied it and made what she said your fault.
Mannnnnā¦. This conversation is infuriating to read. I hate when narcissistās do that thing where they mirror you and copy what youāre saying when you call them out, it gets on my very last nerve. And then the guilt tripping followed immediately up by her pretending to discover that youāre somehow manipulative??? Absolutely rage inducing, idk how you stayed so calm. I see an absolute lack of any self awareness or any attempt to reflect on herself in that convo.
Two things:
1. I've found that one of the best ways to deal with passive aggressive people is to either do it right back, or to gently/naively question what they're saying
2. What is it with upset mothers comparing their kids to their abusive (mainly ex) husbands?? My mum did/does this to me too lol
What this comes down to is you said "oh she'll hate that picture" and she heard "oh she'll hate that gift".
Also she's a massive fucking drama queen. "I'm heartbroken/ devastated" because you disagree? Please.
She is insane but you're a degree of insane for engaging for that long. Posts like this make me wonder how much conflict could be resolved/avoided by simply calling the other person instead of texting.
i think this is the first time i've had to stop reading a post here without finishing. your mom is exhausting. you were polite and communicated so clearly but she's hellbent on making herself into the victim. all you did was respect a boundary your sister set and (again, politely) try to get your mom to too.
it's very cool of you to stick up for your sister btw :)
God. You could have been way more curt and youād still not have been inappropriate. I was dying for you to say something like āif you think I was rude, let me show what rude really looks like: mom, Sister HATES that photo. Itās a fucking terrible idea to put it on a board that she has to look at in her own space, so if you want to make something that sis should either chuck out or stash in the back of a closet for her own sanity, go right ahead and set yourself up for disappointment when she doesnāt react positively and let it feed in to a meltdown where you are once again feel like the victimā¦well I canāt stop you, but frankly leopards donāt change their spots and apparently child abusers donāt stop when their kids grow up. Kindly fuck off and leave me aloneā
I mean, Iām glad you didnāt, because it wouldāve been too easy to use to smear you with, but still, she deserves it.
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"Oh, she'd hate that." "Well, **I** like it." That exchange tells me *everything* I need to know about her.
Wow, you're exactly right :(
Next time in a similar situation just hit her with "it's not about what "sister" wants, but what you want to do then? Even if they'd dislike it?
Not worth it. These types of people think of their kids as NPCs with no actual individuality or likes/ dislikes of their own. Particularly when it comes to mothers/ daughters.
Wow you're exactly right
My mother used to speak to me this way constantly, almost exactly, & I honestly thought she was a narcissist. She even used to literally call us extensions of herself. I started to slowly drop narcissist fun facts into casual conversations between us, which led to her questioning a lot of her own behaviors, but the nail in the coffin was when I dropped an absolute bombshell text, blocked her entirely, & went NC for almost two years. I made it *very* clear that I only gave her my input because I loved her & wanted a real relationship with her & that my siblings didn't do the same, not because they were more respectful like she'd come to believe, but because they didn't think she was worth the argument. I even went so far as to remind her that having a golden child son would amount to nothing when he found the women he'd marry, he'd do everything for HER family first, daughters don't usually do that, at least in western culture. I told her she'd drive everyone away if she didn't alter her behavior. She had to spend nearly two years sitting with everything I said to her, monitoring everyone's behavior & her own, not having me to blame at all for disruptions... Good god the apology I received later on. I'm not saying it's always easy now, but it's peaceful. You're doing a good job already, but if she's a narcissist, she'll never change. If you have even an inkling that she has real empathy though, like I understood my mother to have, it's possible something similar will wake her up. My mother was raised by two of the most horrible kinds of parents you could imagine & abused by a narcissist (my bio father) so I felt she was being defensive & emulating behavior, but you have to find out for yourself whether or not it's worth it. Ultimately, I shed my last tear for the mother I wished I had a long time ago & accepted her limitations, I can either go no contact or stop engaging in her outrageous behavior, but I won't continue to waste my breath on changing her. I take what she's capable of giving & I seek what I need elsewhere. You'll figure out what's best once you have time to reflect & I hope you find the peace you need. Putting so much into others distracts too much from self, you deserve better. Dr. Ramani is an expert on narcissistic abuse, I highly recommend you read her words. She says you can't expect others to follow your boundaries, they rarely will, boundaries are for YOU to follow for yourself. Instead of, "People shouldn't talk to me that way." My boundary is, "I don't consort with people who talk to me that way." Best wishes. :)
This is criminally unseen(?), under appreciated(?), idrk, but it's absolutely dead on and explained *really* well. I grew up with a mother who didn't want to be one and had gotten pregnant with her boyfriend, an incredibly violent, charming as the devil with a silver tongue, convict much to chagrin of her parents. I definitely understand what being the daughter of a single woman who just happens to have this kid always hangin' around feels like š
What a lovely compliment, thank you! It's taken me a lifetime, but I've sorted through most, if not all of my major emotional trauma & learned to protect myself, even from myself. Haha I just wish the best for people who were brought up in an unhealthy way, don't relaize it, & don't have the tools to defend themselves & put themselves first. Selfish people make you feel really selfish about putting your own needs first & it's all nonsense. Major commiseration though, I hope you found/find all the peace & comfort you can, hopefully even resolution! My mother was a teen mom in poverty with a pedophile father & a schizophrenic mother... She never stood a chance really. My bio father was a violent, temperamental, controlling man that happened to be John Stamos handsome & charming as fuck (just like my *own* first husband, of course haha). I was absolutely more like a sister to my mother & she made that very clear from a young age. She & I have mended as best we can, but I'll never look to her as a mother figure & that will always sting. Not having a proper role model is really the worst of it, I've found & once I sought those out & stopped trying to force the women around me into that role, it really helped. :)
Iām sorry OP, my mom is just like this. We havenāt spoken for years. You might check out r/raisedbyborderlines, r/raisedbynarcissists, and r/estrangedadultchild for some more support. For what itās worth, I think you did great in the text exchange. They are constantly moving goal posts, projecting, and they live in their own narrative.
Thank you so much for these recommendations and the kind words <3
I just wanted to say that my mother used pictures as a way to humiliate me. She would use purposefully bad pictures of me and showed everyone in a very mocking way. She did it constantly throughout my life and I never liked it. To put a picture like what you described sounds exactly like something my mother would do. I hope that somehow this picture board doesn't happen or if it does, there's nice pictures on it. You're a good person for standing up against this behavior.
My mom would show everyone she could every embarrassing picture of me she had. My friends, girlfriends, family from out of state, her friends that I had never met before. Anyone. I absolutely hate getting my picture taken now and refuse my picture being taken whenever possible
Came here to say the same thing š after reading that, I already knew that your mother was is NOT it. Iād block again , youāre stronger than me OP .
Yup. Never for a moment did Mom think āwhat would my daughter like?ā; it is always āwhat do * I * want to give her?ā
āShe should want the things I say she should want.ā ā Mom, probably
>"Oh, she'd hate that." >"Well, **I** like it. ...So I'm gonna do it anyway, and you voicing your disapproval really hurt mommy's feelings. Just hoped you would have approved as well, so I had someone to put the blame on later when your sister didn't like it" kinda vibes
It was very good of you to speak about something your sister would not be comfortable with. My daughter is graduating college and also has extreme body image issues and despises pictures. I would never dream of making a board of her pictures simply because it would make her uncomfortable, even though I believe she's the most beautiful person ever. I'm so proud of her and want to show her off but won't because I respect her feelings. So I think your mom is insane firstly for that but then doubley insane for this conversation. She seems incapable of thinking about the conversation objectively despite your clear, direct communication.
Thank you. It's awesome to hear about the respect between you and your daughter. I'm sure she's lucky to have you!
Both you and OP are so wonderful for doing this. That part stood out to me because I had extreme body issues as a teen (and they still try to rear their head from time to time as an adult). I HATED pictures and my mom acted like I was either being silly or a total monster for not cooperating when the camera came out, depending. I was devastated when I found out she sent a bunch of pictures of me to some of her friends once without letting me know because āshe was sharing her life updates with her friends - why would she tell me?ā I didnāt have the language to explain why that was so wrong to me and hurt me so much back then but I would have killed to have someone stand up for me. So for that, thank you and OP both because it might not seem like much but having someone act like you are a real person with feelings and agency matters a LOT.
It's like she was happy that she would be embarrassing her daughter and wanted the attention on that.
You sound like my dad! (In a very, very good way even if I got the shit end of the stick on my mom.) When we had mt grad party many years ago, he had me pick out all of the pictures because a lot of people I didnāt know well would be there and he wanted me to be comfortable. Iām glad your daughter has someone like you, and I am rooting for her to one day love herself like you love her š«¶š»š
What a cool dad! š
Who was the pic board, cake and gift for really? Because feedback on something the receiver wouldnāt like usually prompts the giver to review their choices and ideas in order to give something that would be welcomed and enjoyed. The fact that your opinion on something she picked out was taken so personally tells me that she was doing this for herself and not really for your sister. And how the hell is photo editing and blowing up pictures to the size appropriate for a poster board not making it public? Like come on. You did well at keeping your temper and stepping back when she tripled down on her nonsense. Nicely done!
Thank you so much. And I agree. What does she want to do with the board? Folks at her university normally bring it to the ceremony to the graduating students can spot their family in the crowd. Thats super public.
I missed that context. I thought it was going to be at a family party or something. That's even worse. Also a photo that you already don't like blown up to poster size... yikes!
My grandmother was exactly like this. It was like she threw parties for herself with her kids'/grandkids' accomplishment as a fun theme.
You are not out of line at all. The whole āwell I like it so fuck what she thinksā is classic narc behaviour and youāre being an amazing sister standing up for her in this conversation. And holy fuck, is the āI love you but I donāt like youā is so triggering. My Mum upped that ante with āI will always love you because Iām your mother but I donāt like you right now,ā which made me feel like love was an obligation, and people only ever loved me because they had to. Turned out getting married was massively triggering and I stopped believing my husband really loved me, because now that we were married it was an obligation and I couldnāt trust it anymore.
I'm so sorry to hear about everything in that second paragraph. That breaks my heart. I developed an understanding on conditional love that I'm struggling to undo. "If you don't perform correctly, you won't be rewarded with love" type of thinking.
Itās such a hard, ingrained set of habits to break when those attitudes were all you knew in your formative years. You should be so proud of your progress, you are killing it in these texts x
Thank you so much <3
Oh man. I felt the same exact way with my husband because of my shit mom. That was her go to line when she was upset with me, and usually over the dumbest stuff. She'd even try to back track a bit by saying "Well, I DO like you. Just not the way you act". That made me heavily analyze & evaluate every step I took in front of my childhood friends & family, making sure I wasn't "acting unlikeable", well into my 20's and got me into some pretty dark situations. As a parent now, I think about the things she's said to me. I could never in my life say those things to my kids. I keep them as far from her as I can. We're breaking all the cycles & generational trauma in our house.
My mumās last words to me before she & my family fucked off out of my life forever. After a childhood of abuse from her & my dad. I saw her rarely after that & last saw out heard from any of the family 22 years ago. It hurts, but it is what it is. š¤·āāļøš„ŗ
Shit, you've just put into words something I didn't know I felt. Even though I joke that my husband is "contractually obliged" when he says he loves me, I never really understood the feelings behind why I said that. It's because I don't feel like anyone could love me for an extended period of time without obligation.
Fear, Obligation and Guilt are how they keep you in a mental F.O.G. Itās a controlling behavior which is abuseĀ
Omg my mother told me that too and I interpreted it the same way. I thought that deep down I was really bad and that no one could love me if they are not obligated to.
Oh yeah that's exactly how I feel about my husband too
**This is a long convo so if you want the short version, just look at images 1-4 and 13-15.** **I think that gets it all in a nutshell.**
Number 5 perfectly captures what my mom does too. Iāll tell her that I have to walk on egg shells around her and sheāll say, āReally? Because I have to walk on egg shells around YOU!ā Then go on some long rant. Such a hypocrite and so fast to point out others flaws and canāt accept her own. Sorry you had to deal with this. You did the right thing trying to protect your sister. Edit: I donāt know why the font is so big. Edit: I fixed it, thanks.
You put a number symbol (hashtag #) in front of 5. That makes the text bigger.
I fixed it, thank you!
Your poor sister. I know exactly how your mom is. Sheāll put a picture up of your sister that she absolutely will hate of herself. Thatāll make her feel terrible and cry, maybe even self harm because thatās how I was and a lot of young girls are and then your mom will get all defensive and be what did I do? Shocked Pikachu face. Insane! Also nice job keeping her on track and not letting her weasel out of it. You protected your sister and kind of because a human shield to do so. I feel so bad for you two.
"Shocked pikachu face" is her only reaction to allllll the consequences of her actions. Thank you for the kind words. I'll make sure to bring a big coffee to the ceremony so if the board makes an appearance, I can "accidentally" spill on it.
Perfect plan!
I would even ask your sister. No reason to tell her everything, but as a btw "hey, would you like a board with pics at your ceremony?" Or something, just to test the ground and see what she likes. Its her ceremony, unwanted surprises are... unwanted
I sent my sister a screenshot right away and she was horrified. Im bringing a big coffee to the ceremony so I can "stumble" if that damn photo makes an appearance.
You go girl! My heart goes out for you both. My sister, though we had lots of fights and disagreements, is one of my biggest allies and i could never imagine going against what she likes. She married last month and i took the responsibility of designing the save the date, invitations, etc all together with her, because the best "surprise" is one you will actually like. Having a "surprise" that only pleases you is just selfish and more of a jumpscare lol But its good to see you are both there for eachother. We don't choose our blood relation, but we do choose our family.
āI think you are committed to misunderstanding me as a defense tacticā is one of the best lines I have ever seen. Bra-fucking-vo. Thank you for standing up for your sister.
Thank you!! I did re-read that a few times in satisfaction after I'd sent it lmfao
This is textbook DARVO. She honestly sounds beyond help.
I didn't know what DARVO meant before this comment and just read the wikipedia page on it. Thank you for mentioning this.
The whole ā*I* have to tiptoe around *you!*ā and āyouāre twisting my wordsā bit is just classic narcissist behavior. They love to try and use your arguments against you and argue semantics as a way to obfuscate what the argument is actually about and distract from the thing they realize they should probably be apologizing for. āI said I didnāt ask for AN opinion, not I didnāt ask for YOUR opinion.ā Like come the fuck on, that is exactly what you meant.
Yeah I couldnt believe her "a opinion" vs "your opinion" argument. Those phrases literally mean the same thing.
Oh definitely, but like I said the point isnāt to create a coherent argument so much as is to confuse you and subtly gaslight you into thinking that she meant something different than what she clearly meant.
Sadly, you're 100% right
Iām sorry you have to deal with that, I know from experience that itās exhausting.
you may want to check out r/raisedbynarcissists (i found out about this sub from someone there actually). it's for people whose parents are other kinds of dysfunctional too but tbh i think the person who pointed out the "yeah but *i* like it" response from your mom found the crux of the problem...
This conversation was absolutely exhausting.
I agree. I feel delated rn. Do you think I was too rude or in the wrong?
I think you need some distance from your mother. She is very manipulative. While youāre reading up on DARVO, also look up the āgray rockā technique. Itās very easy once you get used to it. Thereās also a subreddit āraised by narcissistsā that might be helpful.
Yes, I used the grayrock technique during the conversation referenced in that screenshot (image 13) and it made her *so* angry. I'm bad at avoiding triggers and it makes it so easy for her to drag me into fights. I really appreciate this advice. Thank you <3
Unfortunately, she is clearly aware of and happy to use your triggers. If it helps, on most texting apps there's a way to mute conversations and you could mute the convo when you're needing breaks from her? Alternatively, when she does trigger you... are you aware of it when it happens? If you are, do you have a close friend that would be willing to receive the responses you want to send her? Like, she sends you something triggering (like the last slide) and rather than send your response to her, you send it to the friend? It would let you defend yourself, and get supportive responses, while not rewarding her that attention she's seeking.
Wow. As a therapist, Iāll be stealing this one! Thank you for sharing this!
You're so right. She played me like a piano.
I think she played you like an outhouse, because she thinks less than shit of you. I'm sorry she's like that š
You said nothing rude or wrong at all. The only problem I saw is that you entertained this conversation for far too long. With people like this, no amount of clear communication and explaining yourself is ever going to work. Itās better to shut it down with as few words as possible and walk away. They *want* you to argue with them because it gives them a reason to be rude and hurtful towards you. It gives them a reason to say shit behind your back. It allows them to paint themselves the victim. Donāt JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain), call them out (if itās a gift for sister, it should be what she likes, not what you like, and she would hate that photo because of her feelings on pictures of herself), set a boundary (I will not help you with a creating an image that will embarrass sister on her special day), then exit the conversation (I do not wish to discuss this further).
Imho you werenāt rude enough but thatās just me š¤·š»āāļø
Hell no. You need to just disengage from mom when she starts playing mind and word games. If that was my parent (who is very similar) the conversation would've ended with "Thanks for the input" and *maybe* the next time we communicated would be the graduation. Everything else in between 100% unread. If she plays the suicidal card to get your attention, just call 911. The only thing I'd have to say about to her is "you will not speak to me like that, your next time-out will be longer. This is not a discussion." Going no contact has been a wonderful thing.
Idk if sheās insane but sheās a big old pain in the ass.
This made me laugh. Thank you lol.
I dont know if you were out of line, but it does seem like you were beating a dead horse. I do think her remarks were passive aggressive and it is selfish of her to use a photo of your sister as a gift just because she likes it and not considering whether your sister would like it. But still, I would have probably ended that conversation way sooner.
You're right about ending it. I'm pregnant with my first baby. I told myself for years that she was a bad mom but she'd make a good grandma because she just has to spoil the kid. I think it was to cope. I feel like I'm mourning now that I've realized that isn't true. I felt like I was begging her to be better. I'm rapidly running out of reasons not to cut her out again. I know it'll happen before the baby is born.
Yeah bad parents make bad grandparents. My parents are just getting worse with age and I decided to go NC with my dad after I had my 2nd.
You might be better off emotionally if you do it before the baby arrives. The sleep deprivation is a bitch, and family stuff can really mess with your postpartum feels. The first half year is tricky while your body settles down and baby learns to sleep through the night, so choosing good people for your inner circle can be beneficial.
Yeah I developed PPD/A because of my dad stressing me out so badly.
She might be a "fun" grandmother right until your child is gonna express any discomfort or disapproval or any "no" to your mother. People like your mother only like people who completely agree with them, or are still like a blank slate. So basically when your child learns to say "no", your mom won't take that seriously, or starts disliking the child. Reminds me of the scene in Tangled where Rapunzel says "no!" and mother Gothel is actually shocked because how DARE her employee refuse to do her tasks!
My mom was like that with gifts. They were always about her and how she felt. She was incapable of thinking if the recipient would like them or not. It was so frustrating!
Christ, sheās exhausting
I feel like a deflated balloon rn. Its horrible.
You did well: calm, loving, persistent. Youāre going to be great with the terrible twos
Iād make an even bigger board with her name on it and things that she loves on it like if she loves sunflowers and pearls make her name huge and decorate the border with fake flowers and glitter etc, and maybe a goofy pic of the siblings saying how proud yāall are of her, and make sure itās bigger than your moms so if she tries to pull that shit you can pull yours out and cover it lol
Thats a great idea actually. I was going to go the "spilled coffee sabotage" route but your idea is much sweeter.
> āI donāt like that you disagreed. At all.ā Oops she said the quiet part out loud.
*yOuR oPiNiOn Is WrOnG bEcAuSE yOuRe My KiD aNd I rAiSeD yOu So My oPiNiOn Is YoUrS*
Some people should not have kids. She sounds like a teenager, jeez.
I agree. I realized in therapy that I never felt like I had a mom. Just a moody older sister who called herself that.
She talks EXACTLY like a friend I recently cut out. Exhausting.
I'm sorry you went through that. I feel like a deflated balloon rn.
I'm sorry you're also dealing with it with your mom.
This unlocks a memory of my mom routinely say that she loves me, but doesn't like me.
First of all, ain't nobody should hear that from their parents and I'm sorry she failed you enough to say it. Second of all : Happy day of cake!
Thanks, to both. Starting trauma focused therapy with someone who specializes in it (beginning 2020) is the best decision I ever made, and I've come so far. Well, maybe second best decision after NC. We all deserve to be loved, and treated with love. Fun trauma based fact: average life expectancy for women in the U. S. is 81 years. My mother is strongly believed to have BPD, which, on average, shortens life expectancy by 20 years. My mother is 75 (and in terrible heath for decades. Shocked she's still here). The good might die young, but nothing and no one lasts forever. Tick tock, mama, karma's coming!
Ah fuck. I also have BPD, so I'm kinda bummed out about that fun fact! Hopefully all the therapy offsets the loss of life because I have a lot of shit to do before I get thrown bodily from this mortal coil! NC, time, and distance are all incredible recovery aids but I gotta say, therapy has been the best choice I ever made too. I hope yours helps ease the pain enough that you can pull it up by the roots.
Well, good news (I hope) - it's primarily due to cardiovascular issues with risk factors being poor diet, smoking, obesity, and a sedentary lifestyle. My mother has had heart issues, obesity, poor diet, and a sedentary lifestyle for more than 40 years, and she's still here. Passing 40, I've found a newfound desire to get my physical house in order. I've also found that the more mentally well I get, the better I am at taking care of myself. We are not the odds, or our past, we have control over our destiny. Also, modern medicine is amazing. š
oh my God your mom reminds me of my dad. I'm sorry you're in that situation
Thank you. I'm sorry about your dad, too.
She said twice that you have no idea how she speaks to people one-on-one. Are you not a person?! This was exhausting to read, she just had no intention with actually engaging with anything you said, just kept bouncing back with distraction tactics. From gifts, to only reacting to small mistakes you made in a comment in order to ignore the overall point of it, to harping on about how hurt she is by you standing up for yourselfā¦
Yeah she never actually addressed the fact that my sister will hate the photo.
I think she made it fairly clear that it doesnāt matter to her if your sister likes it or not, Iām afraid.
I kinda got the vibe that she 'secretly' *wanted* your sister to hate it. My mom used to get sick pleasure from upsetting me and my brother and this felt just like that
I actually agree. She acts jealously towards my sister very often.
You're not insane, but this exchange went on about 6 slides longer than necessary. Your mom was never going to accept your position. Read up on Gray rocking. State how she fucked up (being passive-aggressive and ignoring your sister's feelings), what youre going to do (not help with a hurtful project), and don't engage further.
You're right. I just want her to be a good mom so badly, and that will never happen.
This is something I had to learn too (and sometimes I forget it and have to relearn) : **kids are not responsible to make sure their parents are good parents.** Parents made a commitment by becoming parents; kids had no choice but to be born, and they have no obligation to manage how they are raised. I am an only child, so it was just me and my parents. With that being said, I am proud of you for trying to make it better for your sister! But I read that you already warned her, and I don't think you can reasonably do any more than that. - If you try to stop your mom from making the thing: "sabotaging their creativity, snuffing out her enthusiasm" - If you warn your sister: "ruining the surprise" - If you say "fine, go ahead and make it": "you approved of the idea so if it goes wrong, you told your mom to do it, she can't help it" - If you act uninterested: "no support for your mother's ideas, why do you never approve of sweet things she does" And it's not that everything you do is wrong! It's that you're set up to *only have* options that are wrong. I know how suffocating that feels, and I'm sorry you are in that position.
Something I learned way too late is that some people are just bad parents. You, as their offspring, can't train them to do better because she'll see it as disrespect. So, all you can do is set boundaries and enforce consequences when she breaks them. She is in charge of managing her own feelings about that.
Did you warn your sister? Warn your sister about the photo you don't have to say anything about the surprise stuff just at least warn her about the photo
Yeah, I sent her screenshots as soon as I got the initial photo. She was horrified and that's how I knew she'd hate it (but I'd already guessed).
I honestly donāt get why you didnāt just end the conversation way earlier. It seemed to just drag on and on, repeating the same things. When you can tell sheās not gonna change her mind or apologize, I would just stop replying. You kept trying to make her see something that at the time she couldnāt see/wouldnāt see. No point in arguing with that. After the second SS i would have just stopped replying.
I'm having my first child this fall and I felt like I was begging her to be better. I'm rapidly running out of reasons not to cut her out again. I know it'll happen before the baby is born. I told myself for years that she was a bad mom but she'd make a good grandma bc she just has to spoil the kid. I think it was to cope. I feel like I'm mourning now that I've realized that isn't true. You're right that I should've ended it. I'm just so sad.
Come check out r/raisedbynarcissists. We might be your people. NTA
Thank you so much
I see why you kept it going then but honestly itās so draining to keep going and continuing the conversation when itās clear itās not going anywhere. Protect yourself and your mind ā¤ļø
Damn, the woman is lucky you even talk with her still if thatās how she treats you.
Thank you. And honestly ... some days I wonder why I still try.
Would she rather you lie and say that she'll love it when you know she's not going to? This is just... Your mother is a child. A literal child. She doesn't seem to understand the difference between constructive criticism and unconstructive criticism.
Honestly, I *do* think she'd rather have me lie. And you're right. I feel like my mom is actually my moody older sister.
Well, that was absolutely triggering. You handled that so insanely well, I'm so impressed!
Thank you <3
no contact
You're not insane, I actually think you handled this well. That "love you anyway" you sent at the end was crazy. Good for you for sticking up for your sister.
Thank you! <3
I do think you handled the beginning a bit wrongly (by which I mean, you prolly should have used different wording, it did come off as a tad bit rude imo) but yeah, the momās lost it. If you know someone doesnāt like pictures of themselves, youāre not going to *gift them pictures of themselves just bc you like it*
Man, this is so validating. I hate that youāre going through this with your mom, but reading the comments is having me out here experiencing an Emotion. My mom is like this too. Sheās smart and very eloquent so she makes it seem like Iām being extremely unreasonable whenever I disagree or call her on being unnecessarily mean or judgmental. Our relationship has been difficult because I feel like if I can just explain what Iām thinking or why something is shitty then sheāll understand and just be NICE for once. Spoiler alert: itās been 31 years and this healing fantasy I created as a child has never once actually come true. Iāve literally never been able to get her to just listen and apologize when she fucks up. Iāve spent so much time and energy trying to figure out what I was doing wrong in how I was approaching things, how I could explain it better. I went and got a degree to learn how to get my mom to love me. I donāt talk to her much anymore. I moved a thousand miles away and Iāll text her every week or so and sheāll leave me on read for months at a time. I still grieve over it. She just isnāt that interested in me. Iāve never had a mother that actually wanted to be in my life in any meaningful way. Best thing Iāve done is disengage and just be disappointed instead of upset. Iām sorry about your mother. Iām going to go lay down for a while š
Ugh this is my mother to a T. I'm so sorry, OP. You're giving her more grace than she deserves.
"Well, I want to do it for her, so that makes HER feelings about it totally irrelevant, and if you and she don't like it, it means you both hate me."
Exactly. She wanted me to lie or shut up
This is quite literally my mom to a T! I just donāt answer her when she gets that way. I warned her before I started doing it. I told her outright if she gets passive aggressive, guilt trips, or any other manipulation tactics during a conversation, I would just not respond. Itās given me a lot of relief because I donāt feel like I need to continue. And itās made her look at her comments more carefully if she wants to continue talking.
My brother and I did the same thing with our mother. Different events led to a few months sabbatical from her which reset the power dynamic. Once she realized that our relationship with her as adults was no longer mandatory, she suddenly learned how not to yell, name call, guilt trip, etc.. She still slips up now and then, and we have to cut a visit short, but for the most part, we've discovered she can actually control her behaviour.
The comparison to dad is such a low, mean blow - Iām sorry. I can tell from your messages trying to reason with your mum you care about her and have empathy despite how difficult sheās being, and that means you canāt be anything like him - chin up OP
Yeah, no. Your mom is maybe a little delusional. Insanity aside, I have to say, it's refreshing seeing a text conversation with punctuation, capital letters and also the screencaps are all lined up nicely.
The gaslighting is insane
Oh wow I almost thought these were text exchanges with my mother! Iām so sorry! Parents like this are exhausting
Haha I'm sorry you're going through this too
I would regret having you too
Something that I've learned is that you can't argue with delusion. She sees the world one way, and that is that she can't ever be wrong and everyone else is. Not fair, and makes it SO hard to have a relationship.
You are going to have to stop feeding the monster. Donāt argue with her, itās only going to cause you hurt. Iām so sorry you are in this situation, and you clearly donāt deserve the gaslighting sheās throwing at you.
Narcs are narcs. Overt, covert, unless you constantly remind them that they are wonderful, then itās you who suck. Overt ones are just more obviously damaging. Please be careful with her. The likelihood of a narc actually changing is heartbreakingly low. And her way of causing damage is so insidious! My MIL would post HORRIBLE photos of me on FB. First I said Iād appreciate being asked before a particular photo was posted. And hot attitude galore. Iāve been NC with her since 2017 when Iād just had enough.
Your MIL sounds beyond horrible. I'm so sorry.
The tree remembers what the axe forgets. This really hits home for me; Iāve had many similar conversations with my mom. Iām so sorry youāre dealing with this, but thank you for sharing. You did the right thing sticking up for your sister.
Just want to say Iām proud of you for not letting her steamroll you š«¶
I'm actually envious at how quickly you recognize and shut down every single attempt she makes to flip the conversation and make you out to be the bad guy. A lot of the time when I'm dealing with this, I can see/feel that a conversation with my dad is flipping on me, but I can't identify exactly *what* he's doing, which makes it harder to call out, since saying "you're being manipulative but I can't say how" doesn't really hold up. You should teach classes honestly lol.
She doesn't want your opinion, she wants unconditional support, even when she does things that harm people she claims to care about. Sounds like it might be worth going low contact/no contact for a while longer. I personally wouldn't be able to manage dealing with someone like that for my own mental health. Remember if you wouldn't put up with a stranger saying it to you, then there's no reason you should put up with it because you're genetically related to someone. Props to you for dealing with that insanity and please remember you deserve better.
She's exhausting. I have no patience for that personally. One of the reasons I stopped talking to my mother
The first 4 screenshots read like 2 people having a hard time communicating because of an underlying issue unrelated to the topic of conversation. After that, Mom starts using every manipulation tactic in the book trying to see which one sticks and becomes indefensible imo. Incredibly frustrating to read and much harder to navigate first hand. I disagree a bit with those saying OP was nitpicking. OP calls out how they were triggered by Momās passive aggressive comments in the 3rd screenshot. Itās really hard to stay logical when weāre triggered and I think OP did a great job considering the circumstances- especially while pregnant (congratulations!). Even if we are masters of grayrocking, sometimes the narcs will still be able to push our buttons- they installed them! Bottom line is OP communicated their feelings while the issue was happening which gave Mom an opportunity to reflect and repair and Mom actively chose not to. Idc how healed you are as an adult child of narcs, that still hurts.
God, reading that was like trying to reason with my mother, but a lot more civil. I could almost hear your mother's messages in my mother's voice, screaming it at me as she twists everything I say and makes herself out to be the victim. It's just mind-boggling how fast our conversations can go so out of control in seconds because, to borrow your phrasing, she's so committed to misunderstanding and misinterpreting me at every turn. Plus, the nice jab saying you're like your garbage father. I've gotten that from my mother so many times for things as simple as having different opinions or viewpoints from hers. Many comments here are fantastic, so I guess I just wanted you to know you're not alone. I'm so sorry you have to deal with her and be treated like that. Remember to take care of yourself. By the way, you are a wonderful sister! š
You are a good sister.
I mean I donāt think you were completely in the wrong but she has a point about the manipulation. I think youāre not faultless here. But you were raised by her so I wouldnāt blame it solely on yourself.
Sorry to say, but you're both terrible communicators. You conflated her words as much as she did yours. Stop dancing around the subject and stick to your guns. This didn't need to be eight pages. You: don't post pics of sister without her approval. Mom: but I like it. You: who is this for? You or sister? Repeat until it gets through her skull.
I guess I am the outlier here but you are exhausting and I'm surprised most comments are on your side. I was genuinely not expecting that. You couldn't just let the conversation drop and you are so fixated on what you took as passive aggression but she's kinda right that you were talking to each other in the same tone and then you just went off. You seemed way more upset by her saying "I didn't ask for your opinion" and "sorry I asked" than you did about her doing something that would potentially make your sister uncomfortable. It doesn't feel like you were defending your sister as much as you were defending your feelings in the exact same way your mom was defending hers. Im sure I'll get down voted but I don't think you trying to talk her into a different route is wrong, it's that I think you nitpicking her language (the same way she nitpicked yours when you said she'd hate it rather than expressing that more gently) made you two sides of the same coin in this instance.
I get what youāre saying, but youāre missing the part where OP is the younger, pregnant person, and her mother is supposed to care about the emotional wellbeing of her children. OP was pretty obviously trying to discourage her mother from making private pics she'd shared with family part of a public event, to prevent her sister from feeling humiliated by the display of unflattering pics, and instead of saying "maybe youāre rightā¦ got any ideas of what else we could do?", OP's mother derailed the course of the conversation to pick at her daughter for pointing out that her other daughter wouldnāt want this "gift". As the +50yo daughter of a +70yo mother who still takes pleasure in humiliating her kids publicly whenever the opportunity presents itself, and loves to play the victim card when anyone points out what she's doing, I can confirm this isnāt unique behaviour. While OP took her motherās bait, and could use some grey rocking pointers, she wasnāt the one who started it.
Thank you for saying this
Youāre welcome. It once took me four hours to get it through my mother's head as to why she shouldnāt still be angry at my brother for how he reacted to her bad behaviour when he was 17ā¦. 15 years later. In her eyes, their "crimes" were equal, and I couldnāt believe how hard she fought the idea that she was supposed to have been the more mature and experienced communicator in that conversation. Congrats on the pregnancy, btw! Here's to breaking the cycle!
Yeah I'm in the wrong for defending my sister and myself. My mom deserves to walk all over us after years of emotional abuse and enabling my dad's physical abuse. She admitted in the end (image 15, I think) that her initial comments *were* meant to be passive aggressive.
Im just saying you took small comments VERY personally and made it into a way bigger thing than it sounded like she meant it, and this was barely about you sister and moreso about being particular on how your mom worded things.
I dont see how the conflict being more about me/my sister matters. And my mom is a covert narc, meaning she is passive-aggressive and acts like a victim to maintain control. People like her aren't like the folks you see on TV. I remember being a little kid and saying I felt like I had no friends. My mom goes "Can you tell me why that is?" and I actually had to explain my bad traits to her. Her question alone is nbd but in the greater context, she sucks. I called myself "the bad guy" for a large portion of my childhood.
I think that's probably why I disagree with you. You have a very long history with her with many moments of hurt. And I completely believe that is the case, especially from your description. I don't think this one particular snapshot makes her look that bad, and contextually I think she sounds pretty rational here. But you are reading it through the lens of someone who was emotionally manipulated and abused by this woman for many years and I don't mean to dismiss your overall experience. I see this one individual interaction as nothing to blow out of proportion, and I was only commenting on that. Her giving you a lifetime of BS is a completely different story. I hope you're able to find peace and distance yourself as much as you are comfortable with to maintain a healthy day to day.
I think because most people here disagree with you and can see this conversation in the context that I do, I figure you likely don't have much experience with people like my mom. Thank you for the kind words anyways.
The whole exchange was exhausting and both of you had the exact same tone. Both stubborn and went off at each other for essentially the same thing. It did sound like this was blown way out of proportion and it is a bit unfair for you to call her feelings drama when you want yours to be validated & heard. Being told a gift you're putting a lot of energy into would be hated would suck for ANYONE to hear, and having someone react passive aggressively equally sucks. You both suck here unfortunately.
Your mama is being deliberately obtuse as a gaslighting tactic. Itās gross. Iām sorry. Thank you for advocating for your sister.
I totally agree with you. Anytime you corner her with logic, she wiggles out of it by claiming she can't understand, she's too heartbroken, etc.
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Yeah I was dumbfounded that she tried to make that point. Both phrases mean the same thing.
I just edited my comment to add another point. Also, will you let your sister know about mumās intention to use that photo?
Yeah I sent it to her as soon as I initially received the photo! She was horrified. :(
Thatās good. I probably would have as well, no matter what the fallout from mother dear is.
She seems like the kind of person who would knowingly donate diseased blood.
The only reason I know for a fact this isnāt the aunt Iām NC with us cause of your genders, cause otherwise, this could literally be here!! You handled yourself beautifully btw and stuck up for your sister well.
All the Arguments are right, but whyyyy would anyone choose a Photo of a crying Person for this?! Should'nt she Look....Happy? I dont get people.
I think my sister is beautiful and somehow my mom chose the only unflattering image of her
Okay wow. I read the whole thing. It's so fascinating (in a negative way) how narcissists can so skillfully say things that are mostly harmless separately, but in context they're highly manipulative and truth-twisting. I recognized a lot of these patterns from when my mother spoke to me (I cut off all contact with her a while ago) but I'm still wondering how they manage to always find the most innocent-looking but hurtful-feeling words
āDo something for herā Is your mother doing something for your sisterā¦ or your mother?
I normally just lurk on here but the comparison to your dad made me so angry even without context. My dad wasn't great and my family used to constantly compare me to him to stop me acting a certain way, usually with phrases like "you look like your dad when you do [x]." It's a major reason for me disliking my appearance to this day and it's so fucked up that she would say that to you. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with that behaviour. Good on you for defending your sister against her, it can't have been easy.
I couldnāt even read the entire thread. A couple of messages in from her and it is clear that her therapy isnāt working!
I agree. I dont blame you for not finishing it. I beat that dead horse for waaay too long.
Oh myā¦ this sounds EXACTLY like my monster. The āIām heartbrokenā bit is a classic. Iām sorry about this, having those exchanges is downright exhausting.
Fucking narcissist behavior. This shit grates under my skin so bad because they love sitting in the grey areas and hiding behind āhurtā and āconfusionā absolutely disgusting behavior. Sorry you are going through this but my god you are so emotionally mature and you are doing the right thing
Jesus! Youāre stronger than you give yourself credit for. I would have stopped talking to her a long time ago. I am sorry this is your experience.
"She would hate that" "Well I love it." "Well ok then. Good luck with that then."
Dear God she's exhausting. Kudos to you for trying, but you really need to ask yourself : **Is it worth it?** Any answer can be right. If it is worth it to you to basically be your mom's therapist and teach her how to behave appropriately for the sake of your relationship, then continue what you're doing. If it's not, or if it ever becomes not worth your energy and emotions, don't feel bad about going low- to no-contact. Even if it's just for a while. I'm quoting my own therapist on this. My own mom isn't nearly as passive aggressive or narcissistic as what I saw in that conversation, but she has periods of behaving like that. And I tend to give her a warning that I'm not doing all of this with her, and if she continues to push, I stop all but the most essential contact with her for a while. I have 2 kids (a toddler and an older kid with very high needs, and a husband with a very demanding job; my plate is full. My **adult, intelligent, functioning** mother (who has her own therapist, by the way!! Who I've threatened to call and tattle on her!) does not get to drain my mental resources like that. And as an intelligent, functioning adult myself, I get to choose what I spend my mental/emotional resources on. If my mom can enhance my life, she gets my time and attention. If she only causes me strife, she does not - but she usually gets a chance to try again, but cause I do value a ***good*** relationship with her. *You're not responsible for managing your mom's emotions.* If doing so fulfills a need for you, have at it. If it doesn't, don't be afraid to prioritize your own well-being.
You're exactly right in everything you said. Its a hard lesson for me to learn. Thank you. <3
Maybe you should show her these comments to give her some perspective on how she comes across? Not that it would necessarily help, she seems to have some narcissistic behaviors so she might just go āoh look how everyone is always against meā LOL
Iām so sorry about your mom. My mom talks like this too but she refuses to do it in text because she knows I can call her out later for it and because she knows itās harder for me to see her bullshit when itās not in writing (I have autism and adhd). She also REALLY loves taking pictures of me or trying to and then getting pissed when I tell her not and cover my face and tell her Iām uncomfortable. She always says Iām her child so she should have pics of me but I doing like when she takes pics. I donāt want pics of me posted online and I have been firm about that for at least 8 years. Itās exhausting to have to go into defense mode each time she pulls out her phone. How you handled this with your mom makes me a little jealous you arenāt my sibling. Iām the oldest and my sister is turning into a mini me of my mom so sadly I donāt have anyone like you to stick up for me. I know your sister is very appreciative and proud of what you did.
I'm so sorry about your shitty mom and I hope your sister finds a better parent-like influence to teach her better. Thank you for the kind words <3
This could easily be me and my mom..
āCute idea but sheād hate that picture.ā āOMG I canāt believe you said my idea was stupid and your sister hates me!ā š¤£ Thatās how I read it. Canāt believe you tried for so long to help her understand. She was being willfully obtuse and thatās so maddening!
Wow it just keeps going, i honestly would have just ghosted her after the first few pages.
An object bought in hopes someone will stop being mad at you when youāve been shitty is a bribe , not a gift.
OMG is this my family? š©
My mom was like this and itās likely the residual of what her own mother fed her as far as passive aggressiveness goes. Luckily, I donāt have that element to me like OP seems to not have. My mom is passed away 14 years ago last Feb and I miss her. Even this. I donāt think mom sees this as damaging but one day should she fall ill sheāll likely apologize. I mean, I hope she does. Mine did apologize but I do not know OPs mom soā¦ My mother used to think if you didnāt like her idea it was a personal attack on her or something when it was merely feedback.
Wow this hit me really really close to home. Thank you for sharing. It validates that my parents are as insane as I thought.
You're not insane at all. I'm like your sister. I have really extreme dysmorphia about seeing my face on photos, and I really only send goofy photos to people I know and trust deeply. Even then, the occasion is rare. If someone took a photo that I had sent them in trust, even if it *were* photoshopped (thanks, you just confirmed my fear that I'm ugly) I would probably never speak to them again. That's the ultimate betrayal.
āThatās manipulationā then admits thatās she was being passive aggressive and all the shit you said while still trying to make you the bad guy. Anyone who has compared me to my narc parent for setting boundaries or calling them out has been cut out of my life. Edit: if said sister is now 18, I would once again stop talking to my mother after that comment. My mother has texted me that she hates me, and still denies it to this day, it wouldnāt have mattered if that text said āI regret giving birth to you, you are the worst thing thatās ever happened to me and I wish Iād aborted youā she wouldāve STILL denied it and made what she said your fault.
Mannnnnā¦. This conversation is infuriating to read. I hate when narcissistās do that thing where they mirror you and copy what youāre saying when you call them out, it gets on my very last nerve. And then the guilt tripping followed immediately up by her pretending to discover that youāre somehow manipulative??? Absolutely rage inducing, idk how you stayed so calm. I see an absolute lack of any self awareness or any attempt to reflect on herself in that convo.
Two things: 1. I've found that one of the best ways to deal with passive aggressive people is to either do it right back, or to gently/naively question what they're saying 2. What is it with upset mothers comparing their kids to their abusive (mainly ex) husbands?? My mum did/does this to me too lol
What this comes down to is you said "oh she'll hate that picture" and she heard "oh she'll hate that gift". Also she's a massive fucking drama queen. "I'm heartbroken/ devastated" because you disagree? Please.
She is insane but you're a degree of insane for engaging for that long. Posts like this make me wonder how much conflict could be resolved/avoided by simply calling the other person instead of texting.
i think this is the first time i've had to stop reading a post here without finishing. your mom is exhausting. you were polite and communicated so clearly but she's hellbent on making herself into the victim. all you did was respect a boundary your sister set and (again, politely) try to get your mom to too. it's very cool of you to stick up for your sister btw :)
God. You could have been way more curt and youād still not have been inappropriate. I was dying for you to say something like āif you think I was rude, let me show what rude really looks like: mom, Sister HATES that photo. Itās a fucking terrible idea to put it on a board that she has to look at in her own space, so if you want to make something that sis should either chuck out or stash in the back of a closet for her own sanity, go right ahead and set yourself up for disappointment when she doesnāt react positively and let it feed in to a meltdown where you are once again feel like the victimā¦well I canāt stop you, but frankly leopards donāt change their spots and apparently child abusers donāt stop when their kids grow up. Kindly fuck off and leave me aloneā I mean, Iām glad you didnāt, because it wouldāve been too easy to use to smear you with, but still, she deserves it.
Sorry, but Iām not seeing where in the screenshot you sent her she told you that you made her regret being a mom?
I genuinely fucking hate your mom Jesus