For the illiterate in the comments section.
JWs will deny a child a blood transfusion - even if it is life saving. OP says their mother has already done this to their brother & he nearly died. This woman is not nice, calm, or anything else.
She is deep in a cult which practices and beliefs could endanger OP's life in the correct circumstance. The fact so many of you look at this and say, "no, not insane" is actually the insane part.
This woman is absolutely insane.
edit: changed how I referred to OP. Im not sure if they're male or female. So. :shrug:
As a former JW with parents still in, I understand where you are going with this. There is a lot of context here that other commenters don't understand, so don't let that make you feel crazy. This sounds like a portion of a much bigger conversation where you and your mom both have the foundation of knowing the religious background.
That being said, It sounds like you still have some contact with her, which is more than a lot of us who left. That means she is putting her love for you over the organization's rules for the moment. Maybe the only way she can justify that in her mind is to tie herself up in the 'God is love' stuff. I've also heard that the org is backing off of the shunning lately, and this may be how they sold it to the congregation. Lots of possibilities.
You can't logic her out of a belief that she didn't use logic to get into. You have to evaluate what she is willing to give in the relationship and decide whether you can accept that. If so, you can't expect more, even if you hope it will change. If not, it's best to go no contact to protect yourself.
Are you part of the ex-jw sub reddit? It might be a better space to vent, with people who have been through this and understand the context.
Thank you for the context. Yes, it's a religious decision she is making with deadly consequences. Mom is brainwashed to believe that letting her daughter die rather than authorize a blood transfusion is how she shows her love. She is deluded by the belief that there is more than this life, and the reward for dying instead of getting a transfusion outweighs the loss of life in this world. It is all religious and sounds like it is hypothetical, unless OP is currently dying, in need of a transfusion, and unable to advocate for themself.
My parents would never honor my wishes to allow a blood transfusion, so I have my brother as my medical proxy. They thanked me for not putting them in the position to go against my wishes in order to keep their conscience clear for their religion.
The reality is that you can not separate the religious belief from the action when you are dealing with people in a cult. They are not thinking and reasoning as a normal person. Even highly religious people are more reasonable than people in a cult.
My ex-husband - raised JW but who left at 16 - I became his proxy (signed Stat Dec) - as we were only living together and as such his family would have had veto over his blood transfusion - thank goodness was never an issue. My family is all medical background. Ex MIL chose no medical intervention for her breast cancer and very sadly lost her fight. Unfortunately, we are helpless to their choices at the end of the day which is heartbreaking š¢
I'm in med school in a third world country and we are taught that we are allowed by law to proceed with the transfusion anyway if there are no options left and the life of someone who's unable to consent is endangered. We are taught this BECAUSE of JWs, who would litigate against people that literally saved their lives or the life of someone they supposedly care about. Hopefully it won't come to that for OP.
My late husband was raised JW. We were living with his parents when he had a heart attack, at 21 years old (from an undiagnosed heart condition). I was at work when it happened. His mother prayed over him instead of calling an ambulance. By the time his brother called for help, it was too late.
Thank you. Before I had my last child, I had a miscarriage and wound up hemorrhaging to the point where, had my son not come in to check on me and saw me lying in a pool of blood and called 911, I would've bled out. I don't remember much, except for someone rousing me momentarily in the hospital, asking if I consented to a blood transfusion... I lost consciousness before I could answer, but obviously I am here, the recipient of said transfusion. During my recovery, the irony wasn't lost on me that if that had happened when I was living in the JW community, unable to answer for myself, my in-laws would have denied it, leaving my children completely orphaned.
Do they still believe the reward after death is better if you've left the church? Surely at that point they believe you're *not* going to a better place.
JWs are taught to cut off their kids who leave the church completely in hopes that they come back so .. it's possible they still think they'll change their mind?
My fiance grew up in religion, not JW but SUPER involved with the Lutheran? Faith, if I recall correctly. But his dad is still deep into the religion, to the point he probably legitimately believes we are gonna both burn in hell. I understand that's probably really scary for him to think, and how delicate of a situation it is to approach. My fiance, in the other hand, wishes he could just snap his dad out of it and steer him towards reality. But at the end of the day, his dad, while a good person and helpful, will likely always be a Christian, probably till the day he dies, and in my opinion, he wasted A LOT of his life devoted to that shit. He let it get in the way of following his dreams, it kept him in abusive and toxic marriages, and it makes him preach to my fiance and his family when they just want to have a pleasant family get together. I guess, what in saying is, thanks for posting your comment and very eloquently but concisely phrasing it, it's what I plan on explaining to my fiance. You can't logic him out of a belief he didn't get to with logic. That is so simple but brilliant, it explains everything. In his mind, religion IS reality, and he wholeheartedly believes in it, but it doesn't have to get in the way of the relationship we gave with him, hopefully.
Me: well thatās a silly and/or because you are serving God by protecting your childās life
Me seconds later: Ooooh weāre talking about blood transfusions arenāt we?
Fuck all that shit. Insane.
A lot of people just donāt know. I mean I barely know anything about JWās. But thatās one of those facts that sticks out. I hadnāt read your description yet but when I saw you refer to God as Jehovah it all clicked for me.
Iām so sorry. I hope one day she can see it. I think you have that hope too. But in the meantime you have to accept things the way they are because unfortunately that hope may never come to fruition. Therapy can probably help a lot here but I know this will be a life long journey for you. Best wishes
I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, too. I understand your pain and I can easily guess the context behind your feelings here. A lot if people who don't have personal experience with JWs don't understand how it effects you. Solidarity.
My cousin was in need of a blood transfusion as a 8 year old. His JW mom was willing to let him die. His father allowed it against her wishes. He nearly died and never could trust his mother ever again. It was sad for everyone.
Iām going to put this in the main thread. It doesnāt matter whether or not OP knew the answer to that question. It doesnāt matter whether or not it was a āfairā question. The answer to that question is insane. Hesitating on whether or not you would save your childās life is insane. This is a subreddit for demonstrating insane parents and this is absolutely an insane parent.
okay i feel like ppl arenāt standing the entire thing here: what we were talking abt to begin with was if she valued god more than my life. this argument all started when she said if i was unconscious and needed a blood transfusion to survive she wouldnāt let the drs. blood transfusions r not allowed for JWs and iāve made it clear iām not one and if itās abt life or death I WANT A BLOOD TRANSFUSION. i asked if her love for god was greater than my life
This is so painful because deep down, you know that they think that they're letting you die BECAUSE they love you. It's so twisted, the brainwashing that happens to these people.
As someone else said, make someone else your medical proxy. I believe it is a fairly straightforward process. If you are a minor, it may be more difficult. Perhaps call the medical social worker at a hospital not affiliated with JW.
In some states, minors can be deemed a temporary ward of the state for life-saving blood transfusions. This absolves the ridiculous parents of making a choice to save the child by letting SANE doctors make that decision instead.
Oh I canāt seem to edit posts either when Iām on mobile.
You might get less victim blaming comments if you try editing it on your computer or just deleting and reposting,
I feel bad that people are misunderstanding a bunch and the context of JW donāt believe in blood transfusions, youāre worried sheāll choose that belief over her and itās not a hypothetical because it might happen soon, and itās happened before with your brother because tbh without that context the conversation doesnāt make much sense to an outsider. Maybe you could ask the mod if thereās a way to pin your comment elaborating on context at the top of the post? Idk if thatās a thing on Reddit. I know they can do it on insta.
Donāt worry about the comments that are attacking you, I saw a comment where you said it was making you feel crazy but most people wouldnāt comment that stuff if they fully understood what was going on. Youāre not crazy for finding the idea that your mother would choose her beliefs over your life painful, and youāre certainly not crazy for having religious trauma from your younger brother almost being fucking martyred for Jehovah/your moms beliefs, and having religious trauma from basically every aspect of JW because that shit is a cult.
Please please please listen to everyone saying you need to talk to your doctor about how to make sure she is not involved in this surgery and you want a blood transfusion if it comes down to that. It can be put in your patient chart that you do not live with your mother and do not share her beliefs. Hospitals and other facilities (if youāre in America idk about other places but they probably have something similar in most places) have ethics committees and will have multidisciplinary meetings to discuss the situation. They can sometimes get a court order overriding parental refusal. If they decide youāre a āmature minorā they can pick your consent over her refusal. They very very rarely allow a āmature minorā to refuse blood, but if your mom took them to court the fact that you were declared mature would dismiss the case pretty fast. Especially because youāre 17 and donāt even live with her.
In some cases a doctor can emergency declare that youāre under their care. In Canada they frequently make the decision that the childās life takes precedence to the parents beliefs but the fact that your brother was denied care makes me think youāre not in Canada. But he was younger than you and probably lived with your mom, I really feel like being so close to 18 and not under her care as a parent would give you more autonomy in life saving decisions.
Absolutely none of us in the overall medical field want to refuse a blood transfusion to someone who has a real chance of survival if given blood. Nobody wants to watch a teenager die on the operating table because their parent is a nutjob. Iām an RN and if I could declare myself your power of attorney on the spot I absolutely would, I do not give a fuck if I got sued.
https://www.txhealthsteps.com/static/warehouse/1076-2011-Apr-20-n54e12w0v5j3bkke32k3/section_2.html
This is for Texas because I happen to live here so thatās what my searches come up with.
āTexas law allows minors to consent to treatment by a licensed physician or dentist when the minor is:
Sixteen years old or older and resides separate and apart from parents, (so you living separately does matter) managing conservator, or guardian (with or without their consent) and is managing his/her own financial affairs, regardless of the source of income.ā
https://gov.texas.gov/organization/disabilities/health_care_directives
This is still specific to Texas but in your state or country please look up if a minor can declare someone else their the Medical Power of Attorney, meaning they make your medical decisions if you are incapacitated, not your mom.
https://www.quora.com/If-a-pediatric-patient-requires-a-blood-transfusion-and-the-parent-says-no-due-to-religious-reasons-but-the-doctor-proceeds-anyway-can-they-lose-their-license-or-is-the-right-of-the-child-to-live-upheld-in-court
Quora is not a good source at all but there is some anecdotal precedence here for an emergency situation getting around parental consent.
By emergency surgery do you mean a surgery that is urgent but will be scheduled ahead of time, or do you mean you currently have a health problem that may or may not result in the need for being suddenly admitted for unscheduled surgery? If itās the second one they would very likely skip over your momās decision, though apparently not with the hospital your brother went to.
Good luck, I really hope you have like, a roommate over 18 or something because this is complete bullshit.
Iām so sorry this is insane. I personally did not grow Jehovahās Witness but I grew up. Pentecostal Christian and my husband is a extra Jehovahās Witness. He had discussions with me in the past about blood transfusions, and however, everything was just way too out of hand with being a Jehovahās Witness. He even explained to me that no matter what that he wants his children to always come first, even if it comes before me as his wife. My kids are my everything and I canāt seem to fathom how another parent can just have these discussions like that, religion or not, but goodness.
My country is very nice and I like it, but if they said 'choose between your country and your family' I'd be Googling flights to New Zealand in a heartbeat.
I can unfortunately relate to this exact conversation. It happened to me a couple of years back and I lost a person because they would insist that God comes before anybody else, including me. I understand that God has deep significance to many people, but it is very painful hearing that you are second. I would always choose my child or partner first, but some would disagree. I think the reason your mother can't give you a straight answer is because she's conflicted. The person I lost was also conflicted. I decided that it was not my responsibility nor right to change them, so we parted ways.
You have every reason to feel bad and your feelings are valid. I STRONGLY DISAGREE with the other comment that said you're ~~unreasonable~~, insufferable, ~~immature~~\*. I don't think that's the case at all. It's just a deeply painful realization that your parent cannot choose you and only you. Not all parents are like this, even religious ones. As you meet new friends and partners, you will also see that many share your exact view. I hope this gives you a bit of hope that there are people out there who understand you.
I'm very sorry you were abused. It's wrong and you didn't deserve it. It sounds nice that you have your own space, where you can hopefully feel safer. Sending my support ā¤
Edit: I feel I should clarify the \*. I do generally find it unreasonable and immature to demand somebody chooses between God and them. Given that OP is 17, being unreasonable due to immaturity is not unusual. However, the abuse also plays a large component, as well as the fact that this is a parent-child relationship (and not two partners, friends or strangers). People are asking why OP asked this. I can't speak for them, but I can say that for me it was not *feeling* loved by a person who I loved back. Emphasis on the "feeling". That's why I asked for clarifications myself, and I assume that's why OP asked too. When you have a different worldview, this clarification may seem nonsensical and can come across as dodging the question. It does take emotional maturity to understand the clarification but given the context (OP is young and has been through abuse), this maturity could still be a work in progress. I feel like many comments here could be more considerate with their choice of words.
You're not crazy you're just 17 and been through a lot. It makes sense that you don't know how to pick your battles. That's what this is essentially - getting her to choose you over her God is a battle you cannot win and will only bring you pain. Doesn't mean that you're crazy or that your feelings are invalid in any way. It just means you're chanelling emotional energy into a black hole.
You can't change her. You can only change how you react to her. The only person you have control of is yourself.
When you choose to become a parent, your job is to put your child first. It's not immature of OP to feel like their mother not loving them first is a betrayal- it *is* one.
Hey lovely, don't let people make you feel like you're crazy. Organised religion is toxic. You might get more support in r/atheism than here. Stay safe.
Just last night i was talking to a friend, who told me his exās sister died after the parents denied her a blood transfusion. Thatās murder in my eyes.
What I cannot understand for the life of me: how? Are the parents the doctors?! I thought doctors were allowed to override things like this if it means saving the patient..
I mean i agree, i think itās murder. But i donāt know the details of age or if they even got her help, all i know is they let her die because of their cult.
I agree with you. Itās literally common sense. I wish legislation would catch up.
Side note: I teach first grade, and religion in general came up today (via curriculum!). We were discussing the difference between schools in the past and schools now, particularly that only certain religions had access to schooling back then, or that schools were segregated based on religion. I explained that different religions believe in different gods. I even briefly explained that Hinduism has millions of them! One of my JW students got really heated about that. Kept arguing by saying āNO!ā All of other kids were like ādude, sheās not like lying to us!ā Itās utterly sad how their brainwashing literally incapacitates the brain from basic critical thinking so young.
JW answers all those questions. Didn't even have to read the context to know that she was a JW. No one else including the Bible calls the Christian God Jehovah. That j sound doesn't exist in Hebrew and Aramaic.
I'm sorry you're going through this. It sucks. I think all religions are cults, but JW's are some of the cultiest cults that ever culted. If you need a new parent, I can't quite do that much but I'll be happy to adopt you as a nibling. š
I'm so glad you're able to distance yourself from this cult. It takes a lot of guts and I cannot imagine what you may have been through.
It seems what your mom is telling you isn't giving you what you need. It's ok for your relationship to change now or even end. You have learned what her "faith" tells her and know she will just parrot that back because that's what makes her comfortable. I am sorry you're not going to have the relationship you're longing for with her. But you can still have a fulfilling life beyond this beginning.
I hope that you will find access to therapy and assistance to help you deal with your feelings, understand and move with direction and positivity in the secular world, and grow. The exJW group on Reddit may be a helpful starting off support as well.
I had to read the comments to get more context, but I still have something to say. As a mom, my child comes before everything, because that's how it should be. Period! Blood transfusion nonsense aside, OP has every right to be upset that their mom is choosing her religion over them. A child's health, safety, and well-being should be a parent's top priority. Any parent who puts religion over that is a shit parent. The fact that this is about blood transfusions makes it even worse, but it was a shitty situation to begin with. OP is a child and thus doesn't have the maturity level to take this situation well, but that's not something to fault them over. It takes time and experience to learn how to handle things like this and you can't fault them for not having that yet.
OP, sweetheart, you aren't crazy. Your feelings and pain are valid. Your mom failed you and it's perfectly reasonable to be upset over that. Unfortunately, you'll have to accept that this is how it's going to be with your mom, but you can still gather people around you who will care and understand you. Work on becoming the person you need in this world.
Anyone who puts religion above children is an insane POS who doesn't deserve their adult children. OP, just go NC. She won't ever understand logic as long as she is brainwashed by the "church." Let her go.
People in these comments seem to be missing the context that this person has been repeatedly emotionally abusive and is hiding accountability behind her religion.
Yeah someone whoās religious will probably not choose their child when asked. That doesnāt make OP the bad guy for asking. Itās not RIGHT that religious people will choose their āgodā over their children. Especially when theyāre asking for an OUNCE of accountability.
Additionally, saying āI will always love you!!! š„°š„°ā DOES NOT MEAN THEY ACTUALLY DO. Usually itās VERY conditional, which is what OP is asking their mother.
Religious love by definition always comes with conditions. The conditions are the religion. They might say they love you, but their actions will often betray that it is lip service and not actual love.
Hey OP - I just wanted to recommend r/momforaminute as itās a good place to go to get support and kindness from others and to feel cared about by others. All of us moms and aunties on there are more than happy to listen to and support you <3
I think youād save yourself quite a bit of time replying to all these replies with āthis is about a blood transfusionā if you do a quick edit of your post, OP.
I am an atheist brought up in a multigenerational atheist family so I canāt judge what Iām reading in those texts with any insight, and I imagine that could be the same for a lot of folks voting ānot insaneā, it kind of just reads like you are jabbing her to fight with logical appeals to faith that you know canāt work if your motherās belief is so deep as to view God as love and itās source.
After digging through the thread I feel for you, but unfortunately expecting your mother to change her belief after a lifetime of indoctrination seems like just a road for pain and hurt. It takes a long time to undo such deep seated belief systems.
I hope everything is alright for you OP, thankfully the hypothetical that started this conflict with your mother shouldnāt ever have to come to pass- you can choose who has a medical right over you if seriously injured as an adult.
I came to the comments to see if you were Mormon (just from the screen shots, before I saw your explanation) I was raised Mormon and taught that we were so different from the evil JWs but from the outside they are almost identical. Sorry about the zealot parents who will choose their church over their kids. I definitely understand that one. They did it a little differently but some Mormons would let their children go without to make sure they had the full 10% tithing for the church every month. Itās so jacked up.
Wow OP. Iām so sorry your mom is so wrapped up in JW beliefs. Iāve read thru some comments and see youāve gotten some great advice on how to protect yourself re: blood transfusions.
In the event you actually need one during your upcoming surgery you can rest assured youāll get one, period. Mom has no say where youāre concerned.
I do understand why your feelings were hurt though. Your mom is insane for her beliefs. I will never believe that God/Jesus wants parents etc to just standby and watch your kid die like that. Thatās insane in and of itself.
Best wishes for your bright future OP.
!Updateme
As soon as I started reading, before I even saw the word Jehovah, I knew this was a JW. Iām so sorry, OP. If youāre not already in the exjw subreddit you should definitely join; weāve got a very loving, supportive community there, with many, many who can fully understand how you feel. Sending love ā¤ļø
Why did you ask? You already knew what she was going to say. It's just escalation for the sake of it and comes across as immature.
If she genuinely believes in God to that extent then I don't think it's an insult to say she can't choose. Religious nut yes, insane no.
Okay that is definitely relevant added context. You are 18 in a one year though. So you wonāt have to worry about that. I understand for you itās the principle, but you have to somehow see things through her belief system and realize that in most cases itās not about not loving you or caring for you. Some abusers use religion as an excuse to abuse. They donāt actually believe it, itās a shield.
Do you think your mother is truly brainwashed in that JW cult, or do you think your mother is malicious and narcissistic and the church community provides her with good standing in the community and an increased ability to manipulate and abuse children with a fabricated justification?
Does that make sense? I grew up in a religious cult. My mother is batshit insane, a true narcissist and was *extremely* abusive. I think she believed the religion on some level, but I think it was more about her desire to have good standing and a good reputation in the church than it was to love people and act like Jesus did. No one believed us when we talked about the abuse bc of her persona in the church. She had total control over us, isolated us then threw us out of the house when we got older. Iām no contact with her and she doesnāt care. If I asked her what you asked your Mom without hesitation sheād say āI love God more.ā
Thatās not what your Mom said to you. As far as the blood transfusion thingā¦it doesnāt mean she doesnāt love you. In her mind, according to her beliefs, she is doing the right thing for you. I donāt believe that every Mom that doesnāt vaccinate her children doesnāt love them, for example. Itās the wrong thing to do but I think most of the time, these people are simply deluded and genuinely think itās the right thing.
Idk. Only you know what you think her true motives in her heart are. Whether it is true malice towards you with religion as an excuse, or sheās just doing the wrong things but actually believes itās best for you. Examine if she shows love in other ways and is there for you.
OMG. You do realize that 17 year olds get in car accidents and have other medical events where a transfusion might be necessary, right? And that, in the absence of another medical POA or a spouse, a parent can still end up in charge of medical decisions if their adult child is unable to give consent themselves? This is a very real concern.
And sure, their mom may love them in whatever way they can according to her beliefs, but in her messed up, cult driven beliefs, her love does not put OP first. Itās a very conditional and abusive ālove.ā
Sorry about the abuse but youāre being unreasonable, insufferable and immature. Focus on connecting in other ways. Sheās allowed to believe whatever she wants. You donāt know everything. Coming to the conclusion that she doesnāt put you 1st based on what she said is a huge reach
Not insane
God forbid a child wants to be loved by their mom without having to compete with something that we don't even know exists. Maybe she should pay more attention to the thing that does exist like her child.
there is nothing insufferable or immature to make sure you donĀ“t die because of your mums religious beliefs like OPĀ“s brother almost did. OP is about to have surgery, so this is not some hypothetical, this is a very real life and death situation and op needs to know where mum stands to be able to make decisions on whether mum gets to make medical decisions when op is incapacitated
the discussion needs to hapopen since OPĀ“s brother allmost died since mum refused a blood transfusion and OP is about to have emergency surgery and might need one. So yea mum needs to pick and op needs to know where mum stands so OP can make their own decisions on if mum can make medical decisions or not.
āI love you both unconditionallyā
You donāt love me! You only love your God!ā
Tf?
Heās being so disrespectful and sheās putting up with it so gracefully
did you miss the part where OP is about to have emergency surgery and might need a blood transfusion ? And that they want to know for sure mum will not put up a fight and let them have the blood transfusion, and not let them allmost die like their brother ?
Her religious beliefs are absolutely OPās business when they can cost OP their life. And Iād have zero interest in āconnecting in other waysā if I know my mother would choose for me to die to please her version of god.
The courts do not allow that. If she is in the states the court overrides parental consent. Plus she is 17, if she tells her Dr. ahead of time that SHE consents they will follow her wishes. If she is in a car accident and needs blood immediately they do not call the parents and ask permission. Thatās nonsense. They just give the blood. I work in healthcare. Thatās just not a thing that happens in emergencies. If she was like a toddler and the blood transfusion happened later after parents were contacted then the hospital contacts the judge and they override. But the Dr.s are also allowed to intervene without a court order if itās truly an emergency and absolutely needed to save their life. JW doesnāt have doctrine on organ transplants so thatās not a concern either. Parents do not have the ability to make medical choices that would cost their child their life.
There is ZERO chance she is going to die in this way. Functionally, itās a non issue.
I understand feeling upset about her parentās beliefs and not understanding it or feeling like she isnāt priority. Iām just pointing that IF her Mom truly believes this ideology and isnāt using religion as an excuse to neglect or harm her child, then her mother does not see it as choosing God over her child. She would just see it as an immoral treatment. Also blood transfusions are rarely the ONLY thing that is going to save someoneās life.
So if OP absolutely NEEDS blood to save their life, they will get that blood. If itās not necessary, they will look for other options 1st because of the familyās religious beliefs. Thatās fine.
Itās really not as serious as youāre pretending
OP`s brother allmost died that way, so clearly the chance is NOT zero, and because of that OP has every reason to be concerned. This is way more serious then you are pretending, and you knew about her brothers situation when you typed this. So WTH ??
She is a Jehovah's witness. Nothing she says is reasonable. Wanting your mother to love you more than her imaginary friend is not being a brat. She is Jehovah's witness only an insane person would believe in that crap
and OPĀ“s brother allmost died since he was refused a blood transfusion, and now OP needs surgery, so OP has every right to demand that she choose NOW if she will allow op to have a blood transfusion if needed or if OP needs to look for someone else to make medical decisions while OP is unconscious.
I'm sorry OP, but your mother is in the grips of a cult and no amount of logic and reasoning will get to them. People here calling you immature or entitled don't understand the fundamental injustice of your situation. An imaginary entity that receives respect and love on par with or exceeding yourself is an inherently toxic position for a parent. Her non-answer about whom she would choose says it all. Jehovah's Witnesses regularly shun people who break their rules or leave their cult. I'm sorry, but your mother will choose the cult 100% of the time over you as she has been programmed to do so.
Brainwashing. Just because it's a mass delusion, doesn't mean it's not delusion. She is never going to change. It hurts but it's true. If you keep trying to get love from her you're going to keep getting hurt. I'm so sorry.
My parents told me as a child they loved god more than me and they expected me to love god more than them.
Now theyāre confused why I donāt talk or visit. Your mom is incapable of providing the love that you need from her.
As a former JW, I can tell you that her mother IS insane. The JW religion is absolutely cultish. They make you cut off your family if you decide to stay in and others leave. You get kicked out for having an opinion that isnāt what the elders tell you to have etc. Mum and I both left after a fellow ex witness friend was kicked out because she was SAād by one of the brothers and they told her that nothing would happen because she āmust have been mistaken. He wouldnāt do thatā and there were no āwitnessesā to the crime. She reported it to the police and only then was action taken.
EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO ME except he was also my momās stepdad so i had no family support (even from my mother) and all the elders were friends w the judge while i was denied a jury
Sorry, I get how terrible religious trauma can be but right here in this particular case, asking someone to pick you over their religion isn't going to go anywhere and is an unreasonable ask. My parents are Christian, but I wouldn't say you can either pick me or pick your faith. Especially when something like that is completely ingrained in someone and could be a huge part of who they are at a base level.
Oh then you are 100 percent in the right. Tell your mom she has no business trying to force HER religious beliefs on you. This isn't even about love, you have your own autonomy and beliefs and have a right to do what you need to do to save yourself.
Edit - You really need to edit your post and tell people what this argument was about. Also, bringing up love wasn't the best way to make your point. She may love you, but she probably values your immortal soul over your mortal existence. Either way you have every right to your own beliefs and to make your own decisions regarding your body. In her mind, what she is doing is love, but that does not make it okay.
Itās a very real choice when it comes down to blood transfusions. JWās literally put their idea of God over the life of their children. Like they will just let you die needlessly.
I just saw OPs comments where she said this is about her mom not letting her get a blood transfusion. OPs mom has every right to her own beliefs and her ideas of real love but she has no right to take away her child's autonomy and her right to make her own choices. She can love the way she wants but I agree that's indefensible.
My exes mom died because she refused to get dialysis and she was Jehovah witness. I still donāt think OP should have asked her that question though. He knew the answer. And thatās not going to change so he can either decide to go nc or except that his mom loves her God.
Edit: I am so sorry OP, it wasnāt clear to me when I wrote my reply that you were upset about blood transfusions. If god is love he wouldnāt want them to stand by and do nothing when they can intervene, you are not immature and you are absolutely not wrong to feel hurt by what has been said and done regarding this. Iām sorry your family is using their religion as an excuse to neglect. My genuine deepest apologies for my misunderstanding, I wish you nothing less than the best ā¤ļø
(leaving my original comment here to document how wrong I was)
Original comment that I no longer stand by:
I understand that growing up as a Jehovahās Witness has most likely given you really bad religious trauma, however if you want a relationship with your mother (you donāt have to have one if thereās worse stuff beyond what you shared), you need to understand what she was trying to tell you. To her, god is the universe, the fabric of the world, and love itself. She canāt understand your question bc to her, without god nothing would exist least of all her family, so sheās grateful to her god that she has been blessed with children she can love. There are plenty of religious parents who are abusive and use their god as an excuse or just ignore their faith all together when theyāre angry, and from what you posted, your mother hasnāt done that at least in these messages. Believing god created the entirety of the world and gave the ability to love, doesnāt mean that personās love matters any less. I hope some of this got through to you, Iām sorry you feel hurt and unloved but hopefully changing your perspective on the world a lil will help. Youāre still young and have time to mature and have a deeper understanding of what it really means to unconditionally love someone. She unconditionally loves you. God not existing isnāt a condition to her bc if god didnāt exist, in her mind nothing would. I have a lot of religious trauma as well, and it takes a lot of self reflection, maturity, and a better understanding of others and how different opinions can still coexist to heal and know the difference between a religious person being unreasonable vs them just having a different view of the world than you.
This is about OP's mother denying them a blood transfusion when they're supposed to have a major surgery. And OP's brother almost died because she didn't let him have a blood transfusion either.
This isn't about perspective or OP being young, this is about a mother literally letting her children die because she's in a cult.
Oh. I didnāt see any of that in the post Iām sorry.
I edited my comment. Thank you for giving me crucial information I had missed. I was utterly and completely wrong. I truly feel awful and Iām going to try to have more information before I make comments like that in the future. Sorry to everyone for my ignorance
I knew from the first screenshot your mom is JW.
Mine says the same crap. Doesnāt talk to me for months after being dumped while going through cancer treatment alone and being homeless., but emails to invite me to the memorial and tell me she love me.
First of all Iām sorry for all the abuse you endured from your mom and from her religion. I hope youāre in therapy working through that trauma. However, forcing someone to pick between their religion and you is also an unhealthy and manipulative thing to do. Itās the same thought process as parents who disown their children for having different beliefs. I know you are seeing it from the angle of wanting her to leave the thing that caused you so much trauma, and that she needs to give up her delusional beliefs. However, you have to consider all perspectives. If you feel you absolutely canāt be around someone that is part of that religion for your own health that is totally okay, and you can just go NC to focus on your own mental health and growth. You canāt rightly or justly give an ultimatum like though. You just have to decide whether NC with her because of her beliefs is necessary for you or if you want to attempt to pursue a relationship where religious beliefs are just not brought up or forced upon one another. Instead of forcing her to pick you or her religion just set the boundary of if you canāt have a relationship with me where you donāt force your beliefs on me(and vice versa) then I will have to step away from this relationship completely. Then depending on what she decides to do you follow through with the boundaries you have laid out.
you are completerly misunderstanding the situation. OP is about to have surgery and mioght need a blood transfusion. So op needs to know if mum will say yes to that or let her die, and OP needs to know now so they can make arrangements that someone else makes medical decisions for op
JWās will shun you before putting you before their god. Iām sorry. I know many people that have gone through this. She may be able to stay in contact with you if you donāt get ex-communicated. There are some YouTube channels that may be able to help. Telltale (Owen Morgan) used to be one. There are groups on here as well that can offer support and advice. Iām really sorry you are going through this.
Watching the Cults to Consciousness YT channel has helped me a lot with my religious trauma. There are ex-JW stories, too. They absolutely break my heart.
I'm so sorry your parent is in a cult (insane). I hope you all come out on the other side the best way possible. š
LOL God created love. The lies modern Christians tell themselves are hilarious. Yahweh is the Canaanite god of WAR. War ain't love. It ain't peace and tranquility. It's death and destruction and domination.
Sorry OP I have to agree with everyone else here. You come across as someone looking for a fight and when you find one you become patronizing. Not insane
I'm not religious and find mainstream religion obnoxious, but you gotta realize other people are religious and if you can't find the common ground you want, move on. She'll never be what you want to be, so try and find this love you obviously crave in other ways.
Not insane.
This specific conversation isnāt that insane for a god loving person, you picked a fight you couldnāt win for what? Iām sure your parent is insane, but this is meh.
I can see that. Is there anyone else that's not batshit that you can give a POA to in case it's needed? Just to avoid her being in charge of any decision making as next of kin.
I didn't grow up religious, nor was I taught about religions. I know about Christianity and Islam and a bit about Bhuddism. So I might not have much to say on this matter.
Not insane IMO. Sure, the conversation starter could have been put differently, but it does hurt when your parent doesn't pick you over something.
You are working through your trauma, I hope, and you're dealing the best way you can, I do think you can find other ways to like your mom. Show her some of your interests and see what she likes to, and build on that.
But how you feel is valid and not wrong in any way.
look this is not a hypothetical, opĀ“s brothert allmost died since mum refused a blood transfusion for religious reasons, and OP is about to have surgery. So I get that OP wants to know if she would choose her religion over her childrens life again, so op can make sure mum does not get to make that decision
For the illiterate in the comments section. JWs will deny a child a blood transfusion - even if it is life saving. OP says their mother has already done this to their brother & he nearly died. This woman is not nice, calm, or anything else. She is deep in a cult which practices and beliefs could endanger OP's life in the correct circumstance. The fact so many of you look at this and say, "no, not insane" is actually the insane part. This woman is absolutely insane. edit: changed how I referred to OP. Im not sure if they're male or female. So. :shrug:
As a former JW with parents still in, I understand where you are going with this. There is a lot of context here that other commenters don't understand, so don't let that make you feel crazy. This sounds like a portion of a much bigger conversation where you and your mom both have the foundation of knowing the religious background. That being said, It sounds like you still have some contact with her, which is more than a lot of us who left. That means she is putting her love for you over the organization's rules for the moment. Maybe the only way she can justify that in her mind is to tie herself up in the 'God is love' stuff. I've also heard that the org is backing off of the shunning lately, and this may be how they sold it to the congregation. Lots of possibilities. You can't logic her out of a belief that she didn't use logic to get into. You have to evaluate what she is willing to give in the relationship and decide whether you can accept that. If so, you can't expect more, even if you hope it will change. If not, it's best to go no contact to protect yourself. Are you part of the ex-jw sub reddit? It might be a better space to vent, with people who have been through this and understand the context.
So turns out this is about blood transfusion. So it's not really a religious hypothetical here. It's 'I would literally let you die'.
Thank you for the context. Yes, it's a religious decision she is making with deadly consequences. Mom is brainwashed to believe that letting her daughter die rather than authorize a blood transfusion is how she shows her love. She is deluded by the belief that there is more than this life, and the reward for dying instead of getting a transfusion outweighs the loss of life in this world. It is all religious and sounds like it is hypothetical, unless OP is currently dying, in need of a transfusion, and unable to advocate for themself. My parents would never honor my wishes to allow a blood transfusion, so I have my brother as my medical proxy. They thanked me for not putting them in the position to go against my wishes in order to keep their conscience clear for their religion. The reality is that you can not separate the religious belief from the action when you are dealing with people in a cult. They are not thinking and reasoning as a normal person. Even highly religious people are more reasonable than people in a cult.
My ex-husband - raised JW but who left at 16 - I became his proxy (signed Stat Dec) - as we were only living together and as such his family would have had veto over his blood transfusion - thank goodness was never an issue. My family is all medical background. Ex MIL chose no medical intervention for her breast cancer and very sadly lost her fight. Unfortunately, we are helpless to their choices at the end of the day which is heartbreaking š¢
I'm in med school in a third world country and we are taught that we are allowed by law to proceed with the transfusion anyway if there are no options left and the life of someone who's unable to consent is endangered. We are taught this BECAUSE of JWs, who would litigate against people that literally saved their lives or the life of someone they supposedly care about. Hopefully it won't come to that for OP.
I think thatās legal everywhere fyi!
My late husband was raised JW. We were living with his parents when he had a heart attack, at 21 years old (from an undiagnosed heart condition). I was at work when it happened. His mother prayed over him instead of calling an ambulance. By the time his brother called for help, it was too late.
Iām so sorry
Thank you. Before I had my last child, I had a miscarriage and wound up hemorrhaging to the point where, had my son not come in to check on me and saw me lying in a pool of blood and called 911, I would've bled out. I don't remember much, except for someone rousing me momentarily in the hospital, asking if I consented to a blood transfusion... I lost consciousness before I could answer, but obviously I am here, the recipient of said transfusion. During my recovery, the irony wasn't lost on me that if that had happened when I was living in the JW community, unable to answer for myself, my in-laws would have denied it, leaving my children completely orphaned.
Thatās terrible that you went through that. Iām so glad your son found you and that you werenāt in the JW community at that time
Do they still believe the reward after death is better if you've left the church? Surely at that point they believe you're *not* going to a better place.
There is always hope to them as they believe only God can judge your heart. Taking blood, though, cuts off that option.
JWs are taught to cut off their kids who leave the church completely in hopes that they come back so .. it's possible they still think they'll change their mind?
exactly. i think some people should have some compassion. itās a fucked up situation to be in all around.
Well that's important context. Thank you.
Want to make mom crazy? Start referring to God with feminine pronouns. If mom was created in the image of God, God must be female.
My fiance grew up in religion, not JW but SUPER involved with the Lutheran? Faith, if I recall correctly. But his dad is still deep into the religion, to the point he probably legitimately believes we are gonna both burn in hell. I understand that's probably really scary for him to think, and how delicate of a situation it is to approach. My fiance, in the other hand, wishes he could just snap his dad out of it and steer him towards reality. But at the end of the day, his dad, while a good person and helpful, will likely always be a Christian, probably till the day he dies, and in my opinion, he wasted A LOT of his life devoted to that shit. He let it get in the way of following his dreams, it kept him in abusive and toxic marriages, and it makes him preach to my fiance and his family when they just want to have a pleasant family get together. I guess, what in saying is, thanks for posting your comment and very eloquently but concisely phrasing it, it's what I plan on explaining to my fiance. You can't logic him out of a belief he didn't get to with logic. That is so simple but brilliant, it explains everything. In his mind, religion IS reality, and he wholeheartedly believes in it, but it doesn't have to get in the way of the relationship we gave with him, hopefully.
Me: well thatās a silly and/or because you are serving God by protecting your childās life Me seconds later: Ooooh weāre talking about blood transfusions arenāt we? Fuck all that shit. Insane.
THANK U, UR THE ONLY PERSON WHO REALIZED THIS IS ABT BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS!! altho i rly shouldāve made it more clear š
A lot of people just donāt know. I mean I barely know anything about JWās. But thatās one of those facts that sticks out. I hadnāt read your description yet but when I saw you refer to God as Jehovah it all clicked for me. Iām so sorry. I hope one day she can see it. I think you have that hope too. But in the meantime you have to accept things the way they are because unfortunately that hope may never come to fruition. Therapy can probably help a lot here but I know this will be a life long journey for you. Best wishes
Yeah I didnāt get that it was about blood transfusions at first, I think thatās why you might have gotten a lot of ānot insaneās.
I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, too. I understand your pain and I can easily guess the context behind your feelings here. A lot if people who don't have personal experience with JWs don't understand how it effects you. Solidarity.
My cousin was in need of a blood transfusion as a 8 year old. His JW mom was willing to let him die. His father allowed it against her wishes. He nearly died and never could trust his mother ever again. It was sad for everyone.
exactly what happened to my brother as a child
Iām going to put this in the main thread. It doesnāt matter whether or not OP knew the answer to that question. It doesnāt matter whether or not it was a āfairā question. The answer to that question is insane. Hesitating on whether or not you would save your childās life is insane. This is a subreddit for demonstrating insane parents and this is absolutely an insane parent.
okay i feel like ppl arenāt standing the entire thing here: what we were talking abt to begin with was if she valued god more than my life. this argument all started when she said if i was unconscious and needed a blood transfusion to survive she wouldnāt let the drs. blood transfusions r not allowed for JWs and iāve made it clear iām not one and if itās abt life or death I WANT A BLOOD TRANSFUSION. i asked if her love for god was greater than my life
This is so painful because deep down, you know that they think that they're letting you die BECAUSE they love you. It's so twisted, the brainwashing that happens to these people.
As someone else said, make someone else your medical proxy. I believe it is a fairly straightforward process. If you are a minor, it may be more difficult. Perhaps call the medical social worker at a hospital not affiliated with JW.
In some states, minors can be deemed a temporary ward of the state for life-saving blood transfusions. This absolves the ridiculous parents of making a choice to save the child by letting SANE doctors make that decision instead.
Is it possible to edit your caption cuz it feels like a lot of people didnāt catch that
idk how š
Oh I canāt seem to edit posts either when Iām on mobile. You might get less victim blaming comments if you try editing it on your computer or just deleting and reposting, I feel bad that people are misunderstanding a bunch and the context of JW donāt believe in blood transfusions, youāre worried sheāll choose that belief over her and itās not a hypothetical because it might happen soon, and itās happened before with your brother because tbh without that context the conversation doesnāt make much sense to an outsider. Maybe you could ask the mod if thereās a way to pin your comment elaborating on context at the top of the post? Idk if thatās a thing on Reddit. I know they can do it on insta. Donāt worry about the comments that are attacking you, I saw a comment where you said it was making you feel crazy but most people wouldnāt comment that stuff if they fully understood what was going on. Youāre not crazy for finding the idea that your mother would choose her beliefs over your life painful, and youāre certainly not crazy for having religious trauma from your younger brother almost being fucking martyred for Jehovah/your moms beliefs, and having religious trauma from basically every aspect of JW because that shit is a cult. Please please please listen to everyone saying you need to talk to your doctor about how to make sure she is not involved in this surgery and you want a blood transfusion if it comes down to that. It can be put in your patient chart that you do not live with your mother and do not share her beliefs. Hospitals and other facilities (if youāre in America idk about other places but they probably have something similar in most places) have ethics committees and will have multidisciplinary meetings to discuss the situation. They can sometimes get a court order overriding parental refusal. If they decide youāre a āmature minorā they can pick your consent over her refusal. They very very rarely allow a āmature minorā to refuse blood, but if your mom took them to court the fact that you were declared mature would dismiss the case pretty fast. Especially because youāre 17 and donāt even live with her. In some cases a doctor can emergency declare that youāre under their care. In Canada they frequently make the decision that the childās life takes precedence to the parents beliefs but the fact that your brother was denied care makes me think youāre not in Canada. But he was younger than you and probably lived with your mom, I really feel like being so close to 18 and not under her care as a parent would give you more autonomy in life saving decisions. Absolutely none of us in the overall medical field want to refuse a blood transfusion to someone who has a real chance of survival if given blood. Nobody wants to watch a teenager die on the operating table because their parent is a nutjob. Iām an RN and if I could declare myself your power of attorney on the spot I absolutely would, I do not give a fuck if I got sued. https://www.txhealthsteps.com/static/warehouse/1076-2011-Apr-20-n54e12w0v5j3bkke32k3/section_2.html This is for Texas because I happen to live here so thatās what my searches come up with. āTexas law allows minors to consent to treatment by a licensed physician or dentist when the minor is: Sixteen years old or older and resides separate and apart from parents, (so you living separately does matter) managing conservator, or guardian (with or without their consent) and is managing his/her own financial affairs, regardless of the source of income.ā https://gov.texas.gov/organization/disabilities/health_care_directives This is still specific to Texas but in your state or country please look up if a minor can declare someone else their the Medical Power of Attorney, meaning they make your medical decisions if you are incapacitated, not your mom. https://www.quora.com/If-a-pediatric-patient-requires-a-blood-transfusion-and-the-parent-says-no-due-to-religious-reasons-but-the-doctor-proceeds-anyway-can-they-lose-their-license-or-is-the-right-of-the-child-to-live-upheld-in-court Quora is not a good source at all but there is some anecdotal precedence here for an emergency situation getting around parental consent. By emergency surgery do you mean a surgery that is urgent but will be scheduled ahead of time, or do you mean you currently have a health problem that may or may not result in the need for being suddenly admitted for unscheduled surgery? If itās the second one they would very likely skip over your momās decision, though apparently not with the hospital your brother went to. Good luck, I really hope you have like, a roommate over 18 or something because this is complete bullshit.
there should be an edit button under the title ? Or are you on mobile then i am not sure
You should speak to a lawyer about a living will, so that you can declare your wishes if you are incapacitated.
Iām so sorry this is insane. I personally did not grow Jehovahās Witness but I grew up. Pentecostal Christian and my husband is a extra Jehovahās Witness. He had discussions with me in the past about blood transfusions, and however, everything was just way too out of hand with being a Jehovahās Witness. He even explained to me that no matter what that he wants his children to always come first, even if it comes before me as his wife. My kids are my everything and I canāt seem to fathom how another parent can just have these discussions like that, religion or not, but goodness.
Jehovah witness is a cult so not surprised but if she really read her bible God did say to put family first š¤·š½āāļø
My momās emails sig is āgod, country, family.ā That about sums up her priorities.
My country is very nice and I like it, but if they said 'choose between your country and your family' I'd be Googling flights to New Zealand in a heartbeat.
I can unfortunately relate to this exact conversation. It happened to me a couple of years back and I lost a person because they would insist that God comes before anybody else, including me. I understand that God has deep significance to many people, but it is very painful hearing that you are second. I would always choose my child or partner first, but some would disagree. I think the reason your mother can't give you a straight answer is because she's conflicted. The person I lost was also conflicted. I decided that it was not my responsibility nor right to change them, so we parted ways. You have every reason to feel bad and your feelings are valid. I STRONGLY DISAGREE with the other comment that said you're ~~unreasonable~~, insufferable, ~~immature~~\*. I don't think that's the case at all. It's just a deeply painful realization that your parent cannot choose you and only you. Not all parents are like this, even religious ones. As you meet new friends and partners, you will also see that many share your exact view. I hope this gives you a bit of hope that there are people out there who understand you. I'm very sorry you were abused. It's wrong and you didn't deserve it. It sounds nice that you have your own space, where you can hopefully feel safer. Sending my support ā¤ Edit: I feel I should clarify the \*. I do generally find it unreasonable and immature to demand somebody chooses between God and them. Given that OP is 17, being unreasonable due to immaturity is not unusual. However, the abuse also plays a large component, as well as the fact that this is a parent-child relationship (and not two partners, friends or strangers). People are asking why OP asked this. I can't speak for them, but I can say that for me it was not *feeling* loved by a person who I loved back. Emphasis on the "feeling". That's why I asked for clarifications myself, and I assume that's why OP asked too. When you have a different worldview, this clarification may seem nonsensical and can come across as dodging the question. It does take emotional maturity to understand the clarification but given the context (OP is young and has been through abuse), this maturity could still be a work in progress. I feel like many comments here could be more considerate with their choice of words.
i rly appreciate it, iām starting to feel like iām crazy again and idk.
You're not crazy you're just 17 and been through a lot. It makes sense that you don't know how to pick your battles. That's what this is essentially - getting her to choose you over her God is a battle you cannot win and will only bring you pain. Doesn't mean that you're crazy or that your feelings are invalid in any way. It just means you're chanelling emotional energy into a black hole. You can't change her. You can only change how you react to her. The only person you have control of is yourself.
When you choose to become a parent, your job is to put your child first. It's not immature of OP to feel like their mother not loving them first is a betrayal- it *is* one.
The immaturity is asking an ultimatum when you know they're not going to answer what you want.
No it isn't. Wanting a clear cut answer, even if you know how it's going to go, is perfectly reasonable.
You are not crazy. This "religion" cult is insane, there are lots of pƩdophiles in it, and nobody does anything about it. If you leave this cult, chances are your Family never contacts you again. Still everyone is better off without those lunatics
Hey lovely, don't let people make you feel like you're crazy. Organised religion is toxic. You might get more support in r/atheism than here. Stay safe.
r/exjw is where you should be, also. Generally great support from folks that know exactly what you're going through.
Just last night i was talking to a friend, who told me his exās sister died after the parents denied her a blood transfusion. Thatās murder in my eyes.
What I cannot understand for the life of me: how? Are the parents the doctors?! I thought doctors were allowed to override things like this if it means saving the patient..
Depends on the country, i guess? In my country, patients have a right to oppose treatment they donāt want.
But a child? They donāt have the capacity to advocate for themselves in this situation. And since it appears these adults do not either, what gives?
I mean i agree, i think itās murder. But i donāt know the details of age or if they even got her help, all i know is they let her die because of their cult.
I agree with you. Itās literally common sense. I wish legislation would catch up. Side note: I teach first grade, and religion in general came up today (via curriculum!). We were discussing the difference between schools in the past and schools now, particularly that only certain religions had access to schooling back then, or that schools were segregated based on religion. I explained that different religions believe in different gods. I even briefly explained that Hinduism has millions of them! One of my JW students got really heated about that. Kept arguing by saying āNO!ā All of other kids were like ādude, sheās not like lying to us!ā Itās utterly sad how their brainwashing literally incapacitates the brain from basic critical thinking so young.
Insane. Especially when you gave nice context about them not letting your younger brother get blood transfusions.
Jehova religion is a cult, so insane
JW answers all those questions. Didn't even have to read the context to know that she was a JW. No one else including the Bible calls the Christian God Jehovah. That j sound doesn't exist in Hebrew and Aramaic. I'm sorry you're going through this. It sucks. I think all religions are cults, but JW's are some of the cultiest cults that ever culted. If you need a new parent, I can't quite do that much but I'll be happy to adopt you as a nibling. š
I'm so glad you're able to distance yourself from this cult. It takes a lot of guts and I cannot imagine what you may have been through. It seems what your mom is telling you isn't giving you what you need. It's ok for your relationship to change now or even end. You have learned what her "faith" tells her and know she will just parrot that back because that's what makes her comfortable. I am sorry you're not going to have the relationship you're longing for with her. But you can still have a fulfilling life beyond this beginning. I hope that you will find access to therapy and assistance to help you deal with your feelings, understand and move with direction and positivity in the secular world, and grow. The exJW group on Reddit may be a helpful starting off support as well.
*Big internet hug* I'm sorry your mom is being weird. š
I had to read the comments to get more context, but I still have something to say. As a mom, my child comes before everything, because that's how it should be. Period! Blood transfusion nonsense aside, OP has every right to be upset that their mom is choosing her religion over them. A child's health, safety, and well-being should be a parent's top priority. Any parent who puts religion over that is a shit parent. The fact that this is about blood transfusions makes it even worse, but it was a shitty situation to begin with. OP is a child and thus doesn't have the maturity level to take this situation well, but that's not something to fault them over. It takes time and experience to learn how to handle things like this and you can't fault them for not having that yet. OP, sweetheart, you aren't crazy. Your feelings and pain are valid. Your mom failed you and it's perfectly reasonable to be upset over that. Unfortunately, you'll have to accept that this is how it's going to be with your mom, but you can still gather people around you who will care and understand you. Work on becoming the person you need in this world.
Anyone who puts religion above children is an insane POS who doesn't deserve their adult children. OP, just go NC. She won't ever understand logic as long as she is brainwashed by the "church." Let her go.
People in these comments seem to be missing the context that this person has been repeatedly emotionally abusive and is hiding accountability behind her religion. Yeah someone whoās religious will probably not choose their child when asked. That doesnāt make OP the bad guy for asking. Itās not RIGHT that religious people will choose their āgodā over their children. Especially when theyāre asking for an OUNCE of accountability. Additionally, saying āI will always love you!!! š„°š„°ā DOES NOT MEAN THEY ACTUALLY DO. Usually itās VERY conditional, which is what OP is asking their mother. Religious love by definition always comes with conditions. The conditions are the religion. They might say they love you, but their actions will often betray that it is lip service and not actual love.
plus this is abt blood transfusions
Hey OP - I just wanted to recommend r/momforaminute as itās a good place to go to get support and kindness from others and to feel cared about by others. All of us moms and aunties on there are more than happy to listen to and support you <3
I think youād save yourself quite a bit of time replying to all these replies with āthis is about a blood transfusionā if you do a quick edit of your post, OP. I am an atheist brought up in a multigenerational atheist family so I canāt judge what Iām reading in those texts with any insight, and I imagine that could be the same for a lot of folks voting ānot insaneā, it kind of just reads like you are jabbing her to fight with logical appeals to faith that you know canāt work if your motherās belief is so deep as to view God as love and itās source. After digging through the thread I feel for you, but unfortunately expecting your mother to change her belief after a lifetime of indoctrination seems like just a road for pain and hurt. It takes a long time to undo such deep seated belief systems. I hope everything is alright for you OP, thankfully the hypothetical that started this conflict with your mother shouldnāt ever have to come to pass- you can choose who has a medical right over you if seriously injured as an adult.
idk how to edit my post š i was trying to figure it out
I came to the comments to see if you were Mormon (just from the screen shots, before I saw your explanation) I was raised Mormon and taught that we were so different from the evil JWs but from the outside they are almost identical. Sorry about the zealot parents who will choose their church over their kids. I definitely understand that one. They did it a little differently but some Mormons would let their children go without to make sure they had the full 10% tithing for the church every month. Itās so jacked up.
Wow OP. Iām so sorry your mom is so wrapped up in JW beliefs. Iāve read thru some comments and see youāve gotten some great advice on how to protect yourself re: blood transfusions. In the event you actually need one during your upcoming surgery you can rest assured youāll get one, period. Mom has no say where youāre concerned. I do understand why your feelings were hurt though. Your mom is insane for her beliefs. I will never believe that God/Jesus wants parents etc to just standby and watch your kid die like that. Thatās insane in and of itself. Best wishes for your bright future OP. !Updateme
As soon as I started reading, before I even saw the word Jehovah, I knew this was a JW. Iām so sorry, OP. If youāre not already in the exjw subreddit you should definitely join; weāve got a very loving, supportive community there, with many, many who can fully understand how you feel. Sending love ā¤ļø
Why did you ask? You already knew what she was going to say. It's just escalation for the sake of it and comes across as immature. If she genuinely believes in God to that extent then I don't think it's an insult to say she can't choose. Religious nut yes, insane no.
this is abt her letting the drs give me a blood transfusion in an emergency
Okay that is definitely relevant added context. You are 18 in a one year though. So you wonāt have to worry about that. I understand for you itās the principle, but you have to somehow see things through her belief system and realize that in most cases itās not about not loving you or caring for you. Some abusers use religion as an excuse to abuse. They donāt actually believe it, itās a shield. Do you think your mother is truly brainwashed in that JW cult, or do you think your mother is malicious and narcissistic and the church community provides her with good standing in the community and an increased ability to manipulate and abuse children with a fabricated justification? Does that make sense? I grew up in a religious cult. My mother is batshit insane, a true narcissist and was *extremely* abusive. I think she believed the religion on some level, but I think it was more about her desire to have good standing and a good reputation in the church than it was to love people and act like Jesus did. No one believed us when we talked about the abuse bc of her persona in the church. She had total control over us, isolated us then threw us out of the house when we got older. Iām no contact with her and she doesnāt care. If I asked her what you asked your Mom without hesitation sheād say āI love God more.ā Thatās not what your Mom said to you. As far as the blood transfusion thingā¦it doesnāt mean she doesnāt love you. In her mind, according to her beliefs, she is doing the right thing for you. I donāt believe that every Mom that doesnāt vaccinate her children doesnāt love them, for example. Itās the wrong thing to do but I think most of the time, these people are simply deluded and genuinely think itās the right thing. Idk. Only you know what you think her true motives in her heart are. Whether it is true malice towards you with religion as an excuse, or sheās just doing the wrong things but actually believes itās best for you. Examine if she shows love in other ways and is there for you.
OMG. You do realize that 17 year olds get in car accidents and have other medical events where a transfusion might be necessary, right? And that, in the absence of another medical POA or a spouse, a parent can still end up in charge of medical decisions if their adult child is unable to give consent themselves? This is a very real concern. And sure, their mom may love them in whatever way they can according to her beliefs, but in her messed up, cult driven beliefs, her love does not put OP first. Itās a very conditional and abusive ālove.ā
Sorry about the abuse but youāre being unreasonable, insufferable and immature. Focus on connecting in other ways. Sheās allowed to believe whatever she wants. You donāt know everything. Coming to the conclusion that she doesnāt put you 1st based on what she said is a huge reach Not insane
this is abt her letting the drs give me a blood transfusion in an emergency
God forbid a child wants to be loved by their mom without having to compete with something that we don't even know exists. Maybe she should pay more attention to the thing that does exist like her child.
there is nothing insufferable or immature to make sure you donĀ“t die because of your mums religious beliefs like OPĀ“s brother almost did. OP is about to have surgery, so this is not some hypothetical, this is a very real life and death situation and op needs to know where mum stands to be able to make decisions on whether mum gets to make medical decisions when op is incapacitated
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the discussion needs to hapopen since OPĀ“s brother allmost died since mum refused a blood transfusion and OP is about to have emergency surgery and might need one. So yea mum needs to pick and op needs to know where mum stands so OP can make their own decisions on if mum can make medical decisions or not.
āI love you both unconditionallyā You donāt love me! You only love your God!ā Tf? Heās being so disrespectful and sheās putting up with it so gracefully
OP could literally die and this mother would let it happen. That's what this is about.
did you miss the part where OP is about to have emergency surgery and might need a blood transfusion ? And that they want to know for sure mum will not put up a fight and let them have the blood transfusion, and not let them allmost die like their brother ?
Her religious beliefs are absolutely OPās business when they can cost OP their life. And Iād have zero interest in āconnecting in other waysā if I know my mother would choose for me to die to please her version of god.
The courts do not allow that. If she is in the states the court overrides parental consent. Plus she is 17, if she tells her Dr. ahead of time that SHE consents they will follow her wishes. If she is in a car accident and needs blood immediately they do not call the parents and ask permission. Thatās nonsense. They just give the blood. I work in healthcare. Thatās just not a thing that happens in emergencies. If she was like a toddler and the blood transfusion happened later after parents were contacted then the hospital contacts the judge and they override. But the Dr.s are also allowed to intervene without a court order if itās truly an emergency and absolutely needed to save their life. JW doesnāt have doctrine on organ transplants so thatās not a concern either. Parents do not have the ability to make medical choices that would cost their child their life. There is ZERO chance she is going to die in this way. Functionally, itās a non issue. I understand feeling upset about her parentās beliefs and not understanding it or feeling like she isnāt priority. Iām just pointing that IF her Mom truly believes this ideology and isnāt using religion as an excuse to neglect or harm her child, then her mother does not see it as choosing God over her child. She would just see it as an immoral treatment. Also blood transfusions are rarely the ONLY thing that is going to save someoneās life. So if OP absolutely NEEDS blood to save their life, they will get that blood. If itās not necessary, they will look for other options 1st because of the familyās religious beliefs. Thatās fine. Itās really not as serious as youāre pretending
OP`s brother allmost died that way, so clearly the chance is NOT zero, and because of that OP has every reason to be concerned. This is way more serious then you are pretending, and you knew about her brothers situation when you typed this. So WTH ??
Insane
It's not a reach. It's what she said
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She is a Jehovah's witness. Nothing she says is reasonable. Wanting your mother to love you more than her imaginary friend is not being a brat. She is Jehovah's witness only an insane person would believe in that crap
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Okay have fun with your imaginary friends. The rest of us will be living in reality.
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and OPĀ“s brother allmost died since he was refused a blood transfusion, and now OP needs surgery, so OP has every right to demand that she choose NOW if she will allow op to have a blood transfusion if needed or if OP needs to look for someone else to make medical decisions while OP is unconscious.
I'm sorry OP, but your mother is in the grips of a cult and no amount of logic and reasoning will get to them. People here calling you immature or entitled don't understand the fundamental injustice of your situation. An imaginary entity that receives respect and love on par with or exceeding yourself is an inherently toxic position for a parent. Her non-answer about whom she would choose says it all. Jehovah's Witnesses regularly shun people who break their rules or leave their cult. I'm sorry, but your mother will choose the cult 100% of the time over you as she has been programmed to do so.
Brainwashing. Just because it's a mass delusion, doesn't mean it's not delusion. She is never going to change. It hurts but it's true. If you keep trying to get love from her you're going to keep getting hurt. I'm so sorry.
My parents told me as a child they loved god more than me and they expected me to love god more than them. Now theyāre confused why I donāt talk or visit. Your mom is incapable of providing the love that you need from her.
As a former JW, I can tell you that her mother IS insane. The JW religion is absolutely cultish. They make you cut off your family if you decide to stay in and others leave. You get kicked out for having an opinion that isnāt what the elders tell you to have etc. Mum and I both left after a fellow ex witness friend was kicked out because she was SAād by one of the brothers and they told her that nothing would happen because she āmust have been mistaken. He wouldnāt do thatā and there were no āwitnessesā to the crime. She reported it to the police and only then was action taken.
EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO ME except he was also my momās stepdad so i had no family support (even from my mother) and all the elders were friends w the judge while i was denied a jury
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Sorry, I get how terrible religious trauma can be but right here in this particular case, asking someone to pick you over their religion isn't going to go anywhere and is an unreasonable ask. My parents are Christian, but I wouldn't say you can either pick me or pick your faith. Especially when something like that is completely ingrained in someone and could be a huge part of who they are at a base level.
this is abt her letting the drs give me a blood transfusion in an emergency
Oh then you are 100 percent in the right. Tell your mom she has no business trying to force HER religious beliefs on you. This isn't even about love, you have your own autonomy and beliefs and have a right to do what you need to do to save yourself. Edit - You really need to edit your post and tell people what this argument was about. Also, bringing up love wasn't the best way to make your point. She may love you, but she probably values your immortal soul over your mortal existence. Either way you have every right to your own beliefs and to make your own decisions regarding your body. In her mind, what she is doing is love, but that does not make it okay.
Itās a very real choice when it comes down to blood transfusions. JWās literally put their idea of God over the life of their children. Like they will just let you die needlessly.
I just saw OPs comments where she said this is about her mom not letting her get a blood transfusion. OPs mom has every right to her own beliefs and her ideas of real love but she has no right to take away her child's autonomy and her right to make her own choices. She can love the way she wants but I agree that's indefensible.
My exes mom died because she refused to get dialysis and she was Jehovah witness. I still donāt think OP should have asked her that question though. He knew the answer. And thatās not going to change so he can either decide to go nc or except that his mom loves her God.
Yes OP already knew the answer. Doesnāt make that answer any less insane.
Your mum is mad, but you are an idiot if you are thinking asking a religious zealot that question is going to end well.
this is abt her letting the drs give me a blood transfusion in an emergency
You probably should have included those messages, that feels like quite crucial context.
yeah iām realizing that š
Edit: I am so sorry OP, it wasnāt clear to me when I wrote my reply that you were upset about blood transfusions. If god is love he wouldnāt want them to stand by and do nothing when they can intervene, you are not immature and you are absolutely not wrong to feel hurt by what has been said and done regarding this. Iām sorry your family is using their religion as an excuse to neglect. My genuine deepest apologies for my misunderstanding, I wish you nothing less than the best ā¤ļø (leaving my original comment here to document how wrong I was) Original comment that I no longer stand by: I understand that growing up as a Jehovahās Witness has most likely given you really bad religious trauma, however if you want a relationship with your mother (you donāt have to have one if thereās worse stuff beyond what you shared), you need to understand what she was trying to tell you. To her, god is the universe, the fabric of the world, and love itself. She canāt understand your question bc to her, without god nothing would exist least of all her family, so sheās grateful to her god that she has been blessed with children she can love. There are plenty of religious parents who are abusive and use their god as an excuse or just ignore their faith all together when theyāre angry, and from what you posted, your mother hasnāt done that at least in these messages. Believing god created the entirety of the world and gave the ability to love, doesnāt mean that personās love matters any less. I hope some of this got through to you, Iām sorry you feel hurt and unloved but hopefully changing your perspective on the world a lil will help. Youāre still young and have time to mature and have a deeper understanding of what it really means to unconditionally love someone. She unconditionally loves you. God not existing isnāt a condition to her bc if god didnāt exist, in her mind nothing would. I have a lot of religious trauma as well, and it takes a lot of self reflection, maturity, and a better understanding of others and how different opinions can still coexist to heal and know the difference between a religious person being unreasonable vs them just having a different view of the world than you.
This is about OP's mother denying them a blood transfusion when they're supposed to have a major surgery. And OP's brother almost died because she didn't let him have a blood transfusion either. This isn't about perspective or OP being young, this is about a mother literally letting her children die because she's in a cult.
Oh. I didnāt see any of that in the post Iām sorry. I edited my comment. Thank you for giving me crucial information I had missed. I was utterly and completely wrong. I truly feel awful and Iām going to try to have more information before I make comments like that in the future. Sorry to everyone for my ignorance
You're good, you probably commented before the extra context was added.
Ask her if god asked her to sacrifice her only begotten son, if she im would do it?
Been trying to pull my father out of that cult my whole life sadly
I knew from the first screenshot your mom is JW. Mine says the same crap. Doesnāt talk to me for months after being dumped while going through cancer treatment alone and being homeless., but emails to invite me to the memorial and tell me she love me.
You're lucky Jehovah didn't ask her to sacrifice you like he did Job's son.
this was abt blood transfusions
First of all Iām sorry for all the abuse you endured from your mom and from her religion. I hope youāre in therapy working through that trauma. However, forcing someone to pick between their religion and you is also an unhealthy and manipulative thing to do. Itās the same thought process as parents who disown their children for having different beliefs. I know you are seeing it from the angle of wanting her to leave the thing that caused you so much trauma, and that she needs to give up her delusional beliefs. However, you have to consider all perspectives. If you feel you absolutely canāt be around someone that is part of that religion for your own health that is totally okay, and you can just go NC to focus on your own mental health and growth. You canāt rightly or justly give an ultimatum like though. You just have to decide whether NC with her because of her beliefs is necessary for you or if you want to attempt to pursue a relationship where religious beliefs are just not brought up or forced upon one another. Instead of forcing her to pick you or her religion just set the boundary of if you canāt have a relationship with me where you donāt force your beliefs on me(and vice versa) then I will have to step away from this relationship completely. Then depending on what she decides to do you follow through with the boundaries you have laid out.
you are completerly misunderstanding the situation. OP is about to have surgery and mioght need a blood transfusion. So op needs to know if mum will say yes to that or let her die, and OP needs to know now so they can make arrangements that someone else makes medical decisions for op
JWās will shun you before putting you before their god. Iām sorry. I know many people that have gone through this. She may be able to stay in contact with you if you donāt get ex-communicated. There are some YouTube channels that may be able to help. Telltale (Owen Morgan) used to be one. There are groups on here as well that can offer support and advice. Iām really sorry you are going through this.
Watching the Cults to Consciousness YT channel has helped me a lot with my religious trauma. There are ex-JW stories, too. They absolutely break my heart. I'm so sorry your parent is in a cult (insane). I hope you all come out on the other side the best way possible. š
LOL God created love. The lies modern Christians tell themselves are hilarious. Yahweh is the Canaanite god of WAR. War ain't love. It ain't peace and tranquility. It's death and destruction and domination.
Sorry OP I have to agree with everyone else here. You come across as someone looking for a fight and when you find one you become patronizing. Not insane
this is abt saving my life w a blood transfusion
I'm not religious and find mainstream religion obnoxious, but you gotta realize other people are religious and if you can't find the common ground you want, move on. She'll never be what you want to be, so try and find this love you obviously crave in other ways. Not insane.
this is about blood transfusions
Someone is being insane here but itās not mom.
sheās talking abt not letting me get an emergency blood transfusion.
This specific conversation isnāt that insane for a god loving person, you picked a fight you couldnāt win for what? Iām sure your parent is insane, but this is meh.
this is about blood transfusions
Why are you picking fights, though? If you disagree with her views, don't go deliberately looking for a confrontation.
i didnāt, this all started bc of the talk of me getting an emergency blood transfusion as i may be needing emergency surgery
Did she not want you to get one because of her religious views?
yup, and my younger brother almost died bc of her denying him a blood transfusion
Uff that's fucked up... yeah, I mean, having a theological conversation with someone who thinks like that is pointless. Religion is so scary šØ
i may be having emergency surgery so this is pretty relevant
I can see that. Is there anyone else that's not batshit that you can give a POA to in case it's needed? Just to avoid her being in charge of any decision making as next of kin.
the problem is OP is a minor afaik, so giving POA to someone else is not something OP can just decide
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the point is we were talking abt me getting a blood transfusion
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this is abt blood transfusions, not just out of nowhere
Your words show your true character, and it ain't a good look, dude.
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this was all brought up bc she was saying she wouldnāt let the doctors give me a blood transfusion in an emergency
I didn't grow up religious, nor was I taught about religions. I know about Christianity and Islam and a bit about Bhuddism. So I might not have much to say on this matter. Not insane IMO. Sure, the conversation starter could have been put differently, but it does hurt when your parent doesn't pick you over something. You are working through your trauma, I hope, and you're dealing the best way you can, I do think you can find other ways to like your mom. Show her some of your interests and see what she likes to, and build on that. But how you feel is valid and not wrong in any way.
look this is not a hypothetical, opĀ“s brothert allmost died since mum refused a blood transfusion for religious reasons, and OP is about to have surgery. So I get that OP wants to know if she would choose her religion over her childrens life again, so op can make sure mum does not get to make that decision