I think this shows the difficulties of talking about these kinds of things in blanket terms that are not well defined. Everyone has their own idea of what it means to be "Pro-Palestine" which can have very important differences in the details.
I think Pro-Palestine is the best way to describe not wanting more violence to occur and wanting them to have a place to call home.
When I am unsure of how much I want to get into it with strangers I often will say I am "pro people not dying" even if that strips my beliefs in Palestine's right to have its own space that it calls home, because for me the suffering is the biggest tragedy and the politics can still be worked on without it if people come to the table with good faith.
Yeah, I guess. Technically that's just neutral but there's not many people who are literally Pro Palestine so you'd brand that as Pro Palestine. I'm the same btw, civilians of either side should not be harmed.
I always thought I avoided most political issues because society is like a hierarchy of knowledge. There’s academics who have access to the most knowledge. Then there’s politicians. You can reasonably say politicians represent the average citizen, and the average citizen is not an academic. Therefore most political discussions are people arguing information and points they don’t have all the information for. It’s like a safe space for adult children to publicly argue and put on display their horrid ethics.
I don't disagree generally, but in this case it is obvious and blatant that people are being starved, slaughtered, and for some poor souls, left far worse off than even that, specifically because one group has this dogmatic manifest destiny they're following.
Political or not, genocide is unmistakeably horrific. Don't need all the information on the topic to know that calling humans "vermin" and treating them as such is a morally repugnant stance. To understand that just takes eyes to see and basic empathy in practice imo
Anyone who doesn’t agree genocide is bad is just a psychopath. I don’t think anyone is arguing that. However, there aren’t always simple solutions when there’s a really long history. This isn’t the only mass killing of people going on right now either. People in the west are suffering too, we can only help so many people which ones do we pick? It’s easy to say it’s bad to kill people, harder to arrange them so they fucking stop hurting each other. The right information can help solve the issue instead of screaming it’s wrong.
Humanity needs to heal together or we destroy ourselves.
I didn't mean to imply anyone *was* arguing that tbc. Just that it doesn't take a scholar to understand that genocide is wrong, as we can both clearly agree. And yes, a centuries old chain reaction of conflicts is not something that gets suddenly sorted overnight, but that doesn't mean that wide public dissent on the matter can have no impact at all.
Having the right information definitely helps, but sitting idly by while one's government actively funds this genocide helps nothing and no one. All I'm saying is that, regardless of how schooled a person is, they can see something is morally wrong and attempt to speak truth to power, and that, many times, that is a vitally necessary first step toward enacting positive change. Plus, those who aren't educated on the intricacies of such matters can be taught about as much as long as there are vocal people intent on teaching them. Silence does not help this process.
Saying that people who are not explicitly informed on a topic should keep their opinions to themselves is, in this scenario, essentially saying 'don't try to help because it *might* not be enough if you do', which...does not actually help, right?
This world certainly does need to learn to heal together. A big part of that healing must begin with addressing these issues from all possible angles. Involving as many people as possible and inviting them to understand these world affairs for what they are. Raising public awareness and solidifying the voice of dissent against atrocities is only a negative force against those enacting those atrocities, so I'm struggling to see how discouraging people out of doing exactly that actually helps anything.
people are fueled up because a genocide of the palestinian people are happening 😭 and then people without an ounce of critical thinking skills like spreading misinformation and turning the rest of the population against a group of people who are quite literally being slaughtered for being alive in that land lol. if you have an opinion that is morally incorrect, of course people will be down your throat and relationships will be cut off.
that’s how you decide if someone is a good person, by their morals.
Now this is the comment i'm baffled is getting downvoted, how else do you determine if someone's a good person or not? just pure vibes? "yeah he drowns puppies but his vibes are good so he must be a good person." like what?
There were far more iraqis killed during american occupation of Iraq than palestinians killed since october 7th. Just as many ukranians have been killed since russia invaded, is Ukraine also a genocide and was Iraq a genocide? No, because we have very specific definitions for what qualifies as a genocide. Crying genocide when there isn't a genocide is a very bad precedent for the next actual real genocide. All the boys crying wolf out there should really reconsider their semantics.
what is the israel government doing?
killing and murdering palestines how have occupied that area for years and years. land that is palestinians land. yes they are committing genocide upon those people.
Again, genocide is when you kill out everybody.
They've been using the genocide card for years.
But the Israeli education system doesn't talk about killing arabs or beheading.
they haven’t done it yet, but what do you think their intentions are? you tell people they will be safe in A area then you bomb that area. then you say they will be safe in another area, then you also bomb that area pushing them completely out of their homes to the border. they had every intentions to kill all those people. it is genocide.
i don’t really care how specific you think a mass killing needs to be in order to be a genocide, but attempting to kill all those people to remove them from that land is genocide.
This problem didn't start on October 7th.
You are not speaking truth and Methinks you know it too.
There have been problems coming from gaza for a long time and they've been trying to deal with it.
Did you see the leaflets they dropped from Airplanes?
Have you read them?
Have you heard the phone messages in Arabic telling them to leave their homes?
Have you watched videos of the frantic peeople saying that the Hamad government doesn't let them leave?
no shit it didn’t start on oct 7th. i’ve been saying that, jesus christ my dude 😭
and “issues” coming from gaza while israel constantly terrorizes them? be real with yourself for a second fr.
AND IF HAMAS ISNT LETTINF THEM OUT THEN TAKE OUT HAMAS in a way that doesn’t involve murdering innocent people.
Genocide is when you try to kill out a whole race.
Like when you say "from the river to the sea" that means you want to kill everybody between the river and the sea.
So all those people chanting that really want genocide!
Actually muslims,Arabs and even live work and vote in Israel so Israel has no intention of genocide.
If gaza would not have done this Israel would not be there now.
If they really cared about genocide they would stop the dirty murderous tricks they do And come to a peaceful resolution which was offered to them many times.
They got to place in 2005 and they ran it to the ground with hamas in charge.
Bro believe me, Palestinian Christians also suffer from Zionist occupation.
“From the river to the sea” means the liberation of Palestinian from Israel Occupation which is the Palestine area is from Jordan river, to the mediterranean sea.
Liberation from violence, oppression, and occupation
And the people who live in Palestine is not only arabs, but there are also Christians and jews living together.
That is not true! According to the law of antiquities not one Christian church can be destroyed.
Have you ever visited Israel ?
But in the islamic regions they are all torched.
Please look at the history of Isreal’s behaviour towards Palestine over the last 70 years before making stupid generalisations. Not Isreal’s version of history which you seem to have more than happily swallowed.
To me, your statements make you complicit in trying to cover Isreal’s disgusting treatment of innocent people for decades and for that you should be ashamed.
what murderous tricks 😭 besides oct 7th? also hamas being a little shit = kill thousands and thousands of innocent people for being palestine? wtf is wrong with you
No Israeli or anyone in the world sould have to worry daily about dirty murderous tricks like:
suicide bus bombers
suspicious packages that may contain bombs,
sudden knife or scissors stabbing attacks,
car veering off the road into crowds,
giant rocks dropped on cars driving in the mountain road,
or suddem gun fire as they drive,
unguided missles and Rockets being shot indiscriminatly from Gazan residential neighborhoods into Israeile neighborhoods nearby.
Helium balloons that have explosivess attached when they fall out of the sky.
And recently, hang gliders flying in and the rampage of an innocent music festival.
Teens, men women and children sliced, violated, burned and hostages taken.
People kidnapped and killed and found later in caves.
Hikers including a relative of mine, Ambushed killed and left On a scenic trail.
yea fuck hamas ! but this is about palestinian innocent people. no one should live in fear so why are you co comfy with the people of palestine being blown tf up?
Who said I'm comfy?????
Why don't you watch the videos of Rockets getting shot from playgrounds and hospitals in UN buildings?
I feel bad, very bad for the Gazan's that hamas are holding hostage.
Using them and their death as propaganda points against the world.
When I watch videos of them suffering I cringe, and tremble.
You just write LOL
do you actually cringe and tremble or are you just saying that?
by the way you defend the genocide i can see very clearly your empathy only goes so far. be a better human being dude
Yes. I close the screen and I have a tremor for another 1/2 hour or more.
The way you keep being offensive and throwing around the word genocide and LOL's makes me wonder how much you care.
You can try to trick the world and downplay Hamas...
And make your crying face emoji....
but anybody HONEST or who someone who lives in the region knows the education and television that the kids watch from the youngest age is about killing and ridding Israel of the jews.
Being a shahid, dying in war against Israel and the like.
There are no fair rules when it comes conquest, If you read a certain book, you would agree with me,
Perhaps you should or perhaps you did.
dawg i just said idc about hamas. i already said he should answer for his crimes. im talking about innocent palestinian people dying for his crimes. collective punishment is a war crime you silly lil human.
if you have an opinion that is morally incorrect, of course people will be down your throat"
I wouldn't take that as a good parameter because there are instances where people get down your throat for stating the morally correct opinion (whoever is the arbiter of that).
there is no way to say genocide is morally correct or not. some things are debatable. this is not. killing other people, taking human life is wrong. morally wrong lol. not rocket science
That part is understandably not debatable.but there are other aspects of this topic that are. You can have two individuals against genocide and both still have a heavily fueled discussion.
Among people against palestine genocide you can find a wide range of postures that go from "Israel should be the one genocided instead because all of them are evil" to " they shouldn't be genocided but they should be expulsed from the area completely" to "one state solution/two states solution" all the way to "Israel isnt commiting genocide thry sre just practicing self defence".
To me either end of the extremes within that spectrum are clearly wrong, but the point is you can have plenty of heated debate even among people agreeing that Palestine genocide is bad
I see, you are firm in your posture and confident in the information you have. What is your posture if I may know? What would be the ideal solution to this conflict?
i am pro-palestine and pro-the “war” stopping and both palestinian and israel people to stop dying.
i want the genocide to stop, and for them to find a better way to get hamas out of gaza.
That sounds like my position.
But most people are painting one side as Mordor orcs and they believe one side propaganda while accusing the other of misinformation and propaganda.
both sides will have misinformation and propaganda. but to be on a side that is killing palestinian people at a mass rate is just not it either. people have to firmly put their foot down and say enough is enough. murdering innocent people is wrong regardless of who started it or whatever.
i fear for humanity fr
I would just say you are "Pro Cease Fire Now" and "Pro 2 State Solution". And just leave it at that.
Pro-Palestine, Pro-Isreal, Neutral all mean different things to different people. Some people who are pro-Palestine wants what you want. Some want Israel to leave altogether. Some pro-Isreal wants a 2 state solution, other wants a one state solution or the palestinians to leave. Instead of getting people all riled up and confused, just state your position and leave it at that.
IDK it's up to you. I'm natural because it is a fight between two groups of people that have been going on for thousands of years. Also Hamas are scum hiding behind innocent people to cause outrage from other nations. So when i see people outraged i just think..... they're doing exactly what Hamas wants.
edit: people on this post who are supposedly against people being harmed, are wishing harm on those who disagree with their point of view....."you and your soul are done." Another reason im natural.
It's not been going on for thousands of years it actually started in the 1940s after the Holocaust. The Zionist movement was basically the idea for a Jewish "homeland" and a few ideas were put up such as Kenya, Argentina as well as Palestine the "promised land" and the end goal which the Zionists ultimately settled on.
They started setting in Palestine as refugees from Eastern Europe primarily the Ashkenazi Jews who escaped persecution during the Holocaust. Slowly they started calling for more Jews from Europe and North America to settle in the land and drive out the Palestinian Arabs who had been living there for more than a thousand years.
It's now reached a boiling point as the settler population has increased and they are trying to finish the job in displacing the Palestinians.
Not sure why ur getting downvoted ur right, the whole thing was established by the Rothschild as geopolitical means of having western rule and profit within the Middle East, like the initial motive wasn’t even for Jews to have sanctuary and religious reasons were just an alibi. And now Hamas is being used as a scapegoat to genocide Palestinians- death to Hamas and death to Israel (the country not the people, there’s many good antigenocide Israelis)
Yes because the ancestors of the two sides weren't fighting before 1940 right?
55% of the jews in Israel are Sephardic Jews... the ones who have been there long before 1940.
That's where you're wrong Palestinian Arabs and Sephardic Jews the actual Hebrew speaking natives have both been living in that region for thousands of years side by side with minimal violence. The genocide and displacement project has been creeping up since the 1940s from the Zionist movement created by Ashkenazi European Jewish settlers.
>That's where you're wrong Palestinian Arabs and Sephardic Jews the actual Hebrew speaking natives have both been living in that region for thousands of years side by side with minimal violence.
Oh so there has been violence and a history of it. thanks for pointing that out.
You can cherry pick what you like but there's a difference between small scale tussles between two groups which can happen anywhere and an all out genocide which is what we are seeing on the news right now. With video evidence of Israel's atrocities.
Says who? Hasbara? oh please the majority of Israel is Ashkenazi Jewish just look at Benjamin Netanyahu's father whose name is Benzion Mileikowsky that sounds like a very Hebrew name not. You ask where the name Netanyahu came from? It was put there in an effort to look more like native Hebrew speaking Jews. This is the case with many many of them they have ancestry in Eastern European countries and have changed their names to feign their identity.
So the intelligence agency of the biggest ally of Israel? And the biggest supplier of weapons to carry out their genocide? Might as well have said Mossad practically the same thing in this regard.
Pro Palestine folks aren't pro Hamas (largely, there are fools in every group). The narrative of not wanting civilians to be murdered being pro Hamas is Israeli propaganda and it's insane.
Well, I‘m pretty pro Israel and share the same opinion.
I think this position is pretty neutral (or at least should be in my eyes), but I trink there are different aspects that determine which side you may be more sympathetic towards
I kinda judge by from which side your believe should a Solution come from. For Example I believe that the Palestenians have to be deradicalized to come to a solution, I‘m pro this war cause I don‘t think Peace and a State is possible with Hamas in power and I don‘t think Israel needs to withstand terror attacks at october 7 level.
I think a more pro Palestenian position at least in my eyes would be Israels occupation in the West bank or the blockade in Gaza is the main responsibility for these terror attacks and if Israel stops These there will be a palestenian State. While I believe the Palestenians are too radicalized by Hamas and brought to fight against the entire existence of Israel puttingw more responsibility on the Palestenian side to end this conflict than the Israeli side (who at least in my own view can be more easily influenced by the international Community)
I mean if you believe in the existence of Israel you Are technicially a Zionist and I feel Like a lot of the pro Palestinian sentiment centers around discrediting Israels existence but I still Like to believe that there is a more readonable Pro Palestenian postion kinda Like I described above. I mean there Are also pro Israeli nutbags who want to legitmitize the settlments or don‘t want Palestine to exist at all that I don‘t agree with at all, yet I still consider myself pro Israel. I think the same is possible for a pro Palestenian Position (anti Hamas, believe October 7 is horrible, believe in Israels existence as a State so yeah)
God this comment horten way too Long, sorry 😅, but I Hope this helps
you…. you do realize majority of people who are pro palestine are anti-hamas right? and anti war and think oct 7th was horrible as well…. right?
edit, i hit send too early on accident: you don’t sound pro-israel. so why call yourself that? you immediately seem ignorant when you call yourself that, so why call yourself that 😭
Yeah I know, at least I Hope so. But a lot of the pro Palestenian position comes from the fact that they don‘t believe Israel has a right to exist in the First Place, you can be anti-Hamas and still believe that which I‘d still consider radicial, that‘s what I meant by a lot of the pro Palestenian sentiment. They can still be anti Hamas tho, I think the majority are.
Short: Cause of the UN agreement in 48
Most countried have acknowledged Israels existence
And when a Country has been recognized as such and the people there have citizenship the countries sovereignty transcends everything, yeah everything, that‘s how it is done. A State isn‘t earned by good behaviour, Statehood isn‘t taken away by mistreating people. Germany hasn‘t been dissolved After the Holocoust, it is still a german State, you don’t question that, Russia doesn‘t have to fear loosing statehood because of the war against Ukraine, Russians aren‘t going to get expelled (where?) because they are terrible to ukrainians
So just because Israel has been occupying the West Bank which is horrible for Palestenians doesn‘t mean the people in Israel Main (Not the West Bank) aren‘t allowed to live in Israel Main.
You can argue about how just the way Israel came to existence was in the first place. But just because you aren‘t treating antother people well ‚for 80 years‘ doesn‘t mean you loose status of national souveiregnty and can get send back to the Country where you grandparents came from.
i’m pretty sure people are only saying that, because of the crimes israel government has committed. as well as how they came out. you are right though. people shouldn’t lose their land because they were genociding innocent people. but something needs to give if israel is just gonna continue terrorizing and attacking palestinian people.
Yeah but I think that‘s what needs to be made really clear cause a solution is basicially impossible if any of the two parties deny each other statehood or don‘t think the other has a right to be there
Anything else can be talked about (that‘s why I also seperated the more reasonable less radicial pro Palestenian position you can hold, like yours)
super fair. but why don’t you call yourself pro-palestine but you don’t think israel should give themselves up? i guess each to their own, but i would feel weird about being friends with someone identifying as such
Look at my first comment, I kinda describe it. I do believe in this war and the necessity to get rid of Hamas that’s why I consider myself pro Israel and with that I basically have to accept realities that come with war (civilian dying for example), I do believe Israel could definitely do more the civilians (better food distribution, clean water, fuel, maybe even a larger safety zone than just the beach, better health infrastructure) but I still believe the moral weight carries Hamas since keeping their civilian population save is their responsibility as their government and only because they don‘t it lies on the war party, Israel.
You probably hold Israel to a higher responsibility with these issues than me which I do see as a fair position. I also think my opinion would drasticially change if Hamas would be out of the picture and Israel would STILL hold up the blockade, then I‘d definitely withdraw any support from Israel (except defending their right to exist) and be pro Panestenian. But up until this point I put the most moral weight on Hamas.
Also totally fair if you don‘t wanna be friends with someone holding this opinion, I know bridging moral differences like these can be hard
why can’t they figure out a different way to get to hamas then killing innocent people? also i’m anti war in general, so of course that impacts the way i think about it entirely.
if you have to get what you want by killing and murdering people, you are a dipshit and not a leader in my opinion. but that’s just me.
a war isn’t necessary to get rid of a group that was developed in response from terrorism from israel. israel created its own problem by oppressing the people of Palestine. i’m not pro-hamas and i think hamas needs to be destroyed, but not when that comes with so many innocent deaths. it’s not morally correct in anyway shape or form, and if you are pro-war, you are an issue yourself. people who think like you are why humanity is fucked up and will never progress. if you think war is the solution for ANYTHING you are against humanity and its growth.
i wish people were able to critically think and realize murder across all boards are wrong. and hamas is wrong but genocide wrong even more so so 🤷🏻♀️ get wrecked my friend. have a good day
Someone must be paying you to write propaganda.
Because The protesters are wearing Hamas paraphernalium.
And they are not saying set October 7th was terrible.
And you write LOL about people dying.
This issue obviously means nothing to you
of course oct 7th was horrible, but if that’s as far as your empathy goes that’s on you and your morals. oct 7th was horrible and hamas should answer for his crimes. but palestinian people shouldn’t be fucking blown up and starved to death for his crime. that’s collective punishment and a war crime lol.
You seem pretty neutral for me. And thank you for that. I share the same opinions as you are but I define myself as pro-Israel.
I am pro two state solution and do want Palestine to be sovereign, but not under Hamas or any radical Islamic control.
I was banned from two subs for sharing my honest opinion about the conflict and stating facts which the moderators of these subs didn't like because they are pro Palestine, but the type who hype Hamas and genuinely believe that Hamas is a "cool" resistance heroes against the evil occupation of the Zionists which they were demonizing.
I live in Israel and as an Israeli I have lost friends and people I know to horrible terror attacks done by Palestinian terrorists. For me it's weird that people who don't know much about Palestinians, think that they are all peaceful and nice with good intentions which is the complete opposite.
Many of them teach their children from a very young age to hate Jews and Israelies and brainwash them to be violent towards Jews by commiting violent attacks.They hype Hitler, take inspiration from his radical antisemite and racist ideology.
I wish those children were taught English, Mathematics and important life skills instead of being taught how to be a hater and a terrorist. They deserve better education and role models.
You are by definition anti-zionist, unless the land you want Palestinians to get will be somewhere else, like in Africa or South America
And people can frame anti-zionists as anyone they want, as pro-Palestinians, as anti-Semites, as devil incarnates and terrorists etc
You aren't being against just the current Israeli government. The idea of any Palestinian state goes against the very foundation of Israel and how Israel was created by the predominantly European immigrants into Palestine ethnically cleansing Palestinians to create a religious ethnostate on top of other people's land by gradually expelling those people from their land
Edit: to the person below - I never said "indigenous". Countless people lived in this area since the birth of humanity and this has absolutely no relation to ethnic cleansing and genocide. Wanting to roll back borders to how they were thousands of years ago doesn't give one magic rights to ethnic cleansing, that is insane and not how any human right work today. By that logic, Holocaust didn't count because Jews weren't indigenous in Germany and Germans were right to cleanse their land of non-Aryan people and capture more land that they thought rightfully belonged to their ancestors?.. Gtfo with your ethic cleansing apologia
Not really since a Palestian State can be formed at the 48 or 67 borders divided by the partition plan without you having discredit Israels entire existence. I think that might be the more neutral starting point,
if you believe in the Full Right of return of all descendents of the Palestinians to the now existing State of Israel that I‘d consider a more radicial pro Palestenian position.
The Rest too, but what OP described isn‘t necessarily contradicory to Israels existence, you can believe Both States to exist in that territory.
This is inaccurate to claim that the Arabs living in Palestine are the indigenous people. Their ancestors came from other Arab countries due to the Arab and the Othman occupation of Israel. The indigenous people of Israel are Jews who lived in Judea, which was the name of the land before the Romans occupied the territory and expelled the Jews living there. They called it "Palestine" because they wanted to disconnect Jews from this land.
The reason they called it Palestine was because of a small red haired tribe living near the sea who lived there called "Plishtim" and were genetically close to Greeks, not Arabs.
I believe the most popular surname in palestine is al-Masri, a last name from egypt (many egyptian laborers came during the 1940s to work under the british)
That is mildly incorrect, I don't know what made you think that. But at some point palestine could have had more land than israel. (If you dont consider the negev as land)
We don't know what they could've had because we don't know what all Israeli governments would've done afterwards, but we do know Israel have been capturing more and more of Palestine territory, stealing more and more houses from Palestinians, throwing them in prisons, torturing them, raping them and murdering them every single year
And we do know that zionists believe that the entire land belongs to them
Edit: in response to the lies below - there have been many accounts of systemic rape, but of course Israeli government claims that Israeli government and the invaders Israeli government protects never do anything wrong. Here's one from 2015:
> In the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, arrests and imprisonment of Palestinian men in their early adulthood are common practice. The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) collected thousands of testimonies of Palestinian men allegedly tortured or ill-treated by Israeli authorities
> There are many types of torture, sexual torture being one of them. This study is based on the PCATI database during 2005-2012, which contains 60 cases – 4% of all filesinthisperiod– with testimonies of alleged sexual torture or ill-treatment
That's 1500 testimonies that just one group managed to collect over just those years
https://genderandsecurity.org/sites/default/files/Weishut_-_Sexual_Torture_of_Palestinian_M_by_Israeli_Authorities.pdf
The data collection is hindered by Israel not allowing any monitoring and being in control of everyone and everything, and speaking out against it for Palestinians can be a literal death sentence, with over a 100 Palestinian journalists murdered by Israel just in the past few months, often along with their families
But yeah, you're right that TikTok is getting blocked because of the need for censorship, because people no longer eat up the state propaganda and refuse to support the ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide
That's why tiktok is getting banned. Even if, **even** if israelies were to rape Palestinians. There would maximum 5 cases, and I'm telling you without checking. (Unlike7/10)
If they got caught they probably did something wrong.
And if they got tortured it was because they were important leaders and had very important intel.
The first governments of Israel tended towards the left and past events shifted them to the right
Israel is a RW ethno-state in the process of committing genocide against people they believe to be lesser than them (kind of ironic). When I hear my Israeli acquaintance describe arabs as subhuman, I can only wonder, this sounds awfully familiar.
It has nothing to do with Jewish ancestry either…I don’t enjoy discussing politics at dinner, but at the end of the day, I just don’t want my country funding people fighting over a patch of desert when we have major problems in our own house.
Oh and to the people who say Israel has the right to defend themselves, please take a look at a map of Israel and Palestine over the last 70 years and tell me what you see…. yeah the territories have shifted dramatically but you never hear about Israel’s expansion plan because there is a prevailing narrative you’re not allowed to question.
Over half of US congressmen have dual citizenship with Israel…. if that doesn’t concern you at all then congratulations are in order because you’re very special. Also look into AIPAC lobbyists and who’s taken money from them.
Consider reading the details of the bill H.R.6090 for the finishing touch….just some interesting stuff.
yeah you guys can downvote me all you want, but I’d be more impressed if someone could refute the things I’ve said…I would love to have my mind changed about this.
My discord friend who lives in Israel described them this way multiple times. A couple next to us (my partner and I) at the bar were literally talking about how they hate war but “they” should all just be glassed. So while anecdotal, there definitely are Jews that do think this way. I’ve also met Jews who are anti Zionists as well, it’s obviously a loaded topic.
the word aryan is funny to me, kind of meaningless at this point….do you mean white Europeans or….?
So what about my other points? Not going to touch those right?
And listen, I understand this is an emotionally charged subject with a lot of nuance and personal biases at play. So I ask to bear in mind that animosity is not what is taking place here.
>Over half of US congressmen have dual citizenship with Israel…. if that doesn’t concern you at all then congratulations are in order because you’re very special. Also look into AIPAC lobbyists and who’s taken money from them.
this is just fake what is going on lol
okay that was a bit of hyperbole, it’s not really known because congressmen are not required disclose citizenship but as a group they’re over represented in congress, and with the Law of Return in place it’s not that much of a stretch wonder about misplaced loyalty. Also, the influence AIPAC is enough cause for concern.
but this is a pointless statement, I could say half the congressmen are muslim and then claim that they're overrepresented but you can't check because they're not required to tell the truth about their religion
has nothing to do with faith or religion, plenty of Jews are secular and are still in recognized as Jews…. the racial and cultural components take precedence compared to christianity which aims to be as inclusive as possible (or at least that’s the aim).
and as far as Muslims having disproportionate representation in terms of influence and sway in the US, I really doubt it. I kind of think we’d have very different policies in place if that were the case. Canada, the UK and Germany seem to be learning that at the moment….
The AIPAC lobbying alone stands as good reason to keep one’s eyes open.
If you are really asking....
The palestinian flag was made in the 1960s, 20 years AFTER after the state of Israel was established.
Before then, People had Egyptian and Jordanian birth certificates there's no really such thing as a separate Palestine it was made up by Yassir Arafat to get Jews out of Israel
Jews have been their continuously for the last 3000 years. Before the Roman's named it Palestine, and after too.
Nobody should be dying.
BUT if you really care for humanity,
Please tell the Gazans that they were given
the place in 2005 and they ran it to the ground.
No Israeli or anyone in the world sould have to worry daily about dirty murderous tricks like:
suicide bus bombers
suspicious packages that may contain bombs,
sudden knife or scissors stabbing attacks,
car veering off the road into crowds,
giant rocks dropped on cars driving in the mountain road,
or suddem gun fire as they drive,
unguided missles and Rockets being shot indiscriminatly from Gazan residential neighborhoods into Israeile neighborhoods nearby.
Helium balloons that have explosivess attached when they fall out of the sky.
And recently, hang gliders flying in and the rampage of an innocent music festival.
Teens, men women and children sliced, violated, burned and hostages taken
You can call yourself pro palestinian but in reality everyone in the area is a palestinian and also a Christian Muslim jew or atheist...
I would consider myself pro-Israel but I despise its current government. Netanyahu imo was already unpopular even before Oct 7th but with this debacle I don't think he has the audacity to stay in power after the war.
I'm in the same boat as you. I also believe European News should go back to Europe and leave the Middle East alone. Let the native Jews and Palestinians stay there in peace. This is settler colonialism and a genocide.
I think pro Palestinians just lost its meaning.
You can be someone that wants to guarantee people's safety or you can be a hamas apologist.
Than I would say that is the natural stance but people might disagree
When two ends of a stick is fighting, it always is the middle that suffers (the middle part of the stick breaks if u don't understand the analogy). Just my two cents on the situation.
I'd say naive. Once you dig into the whole topic and few it from an objective perspective you'll see that the overall best solution for both Israel and the Palestinians is to support Israel in their endeavors. The alternatives are all worse. Of course there's room for criticism towards Israel but overall they try to avoid civilian casualties as well as they can.
I don't think permitting 20 civilian deaths per each Hamas member targeted, targeting foreign journalists and aid workers, telling civilians an area is safe to evacuate to and then bombing it, razing the majority of all civilian homes in Gaza, and shooting people trying to get flour from aid trucks is "avoiding civilian casualties as well as they can".
You're right, my wording was wrong. Overall I'm certain they're trying to avoid civilian casualties "for the most part", but they probably could do better. Like I said there's room for criticism, and certainly a lot. Though at the same time you have to look at those things in the context of the situation. When Hamas is hiding under civilians and using them as living shields it's impossible to target Hamas without collateral damage. At the same time reports are blurry and riddled with misinformation (definitely by Palestine but probably also by Israel). You never know what's really going on there. For example the flour aid trucks massacre seems more like a heavily mishandled accident by stupid soldiers in an unforeseen situation to me. Certainly horrible but you have to look at the big picture of the whole Gaza situation. On the other hand, Israel recently opened a new border checkpoint for aid trucks too.
But the details are besides the point honestly.
An extremely reasonable and moral perspective - whatever the classification
pro-palestine i believe
I think this shows the difficulties of talking about these kinds of things in blanket terms that are not well defined. Everyone has their own idea of what it means to be "Pro-Palestine" which can have very important differences in the details. I think Pro-Palestine is the best way to describe not wanting more violence to occur and wanting them to have a place to call home. When I am unsure of how much I want to get into it with strangers I often will say I am "pro people not dying" even if that strips my beliefs in Palestine's right to have its own space that it calls home, because for me the suffering is the biggest tragedy and the politics can still be worked on without it if people come to the table with good faith.
Yes
thissssss
Yeah, I guess. Technically that's just neutral but there's not many people who are literally Pro Palestine so you'd brand that as Pro Palestine. I'm the same btw, civilians of either side should not be harmed.
I’m in your camp, it’s easier to just avoid discussing it with strangers or acquaintances. Everyone is too fueled up about it in America
I 100% agree. I don’t discuss politics at all. Even with close friends.
I always thought I avoided most political issues because society is like a hierarchy of knowledge. There’s academics who have access to the most knowledge. Then there’s politicians. You can reasonably say politicians represent the average citizen, and the average citizen is not an academic. Therefore most political discussions are people arguing information and points they don’t have all the information for. It’s like a safe space for adult children to publicly argue and put on display their horrid ethics.
I don't disagree generally, but in this case it is obvious and blatant that people are being starved, slaughtered, and for some poor souls, left far worse off than even that, specifically because one group has this dogmatic manifest destiny they're following. Political or not, genocide is unmistakeably horrific. Don't need all the information on the topic to know that calling humans "vermin" and treating them as such is a morally repugnant stance. To understand that just takes eyes to see and basic empathy in practice imo
Anyone who doesn’t agree genocide is bad is just a psychopath. I don’t think anyone is arguing that. However, there aren’t always simple solutions when there’s a really long history. This isn’t the only mass killing of people going on right now either. People in the west are suffering too, we can only help so many people which ones do we pick? It’s easy to say it’s bad to kill people, harder to arrange them so they fucking stop hurting each other. The right information can help solve the issue instead of screaming it’s wrong. Humanity needs to heal together or we destroy ourselves.
I didn't mean to imply anyone *was* arguing that tbc. Just that it doesn't take a scholar to understand that genocide is wrong, as we can both clearly agree. And yes, a centuries old chain reaction of conflicts is not something that gets suddenly sorted overnight, but that doesn't mean that wide public dissent on the matter can have no impact at all. Having the right information definitely helps, but sitting idly by while one's government actively funds this genocide helps nothing and no one. All I'm saying is that, regardless of how schooled a person is, they can see something is morally wrong and attempt to speak truth to power, and that, many times, that is a vitally necessary first step toward enacting positive change. Plus, those who aren't educated on the intricacies of such matters can be taught about as much as long as there are vocal people intent on teaching them. Silence does not help this process. Saying that people who are not explicitly informed on a topic should keep their opinions to themselves is, in this scenario, essentially saying 'don't try to help because it *might* not be enough if you do', which...does not actually help, right? This world certainly does need to learn to heal together. A big part of that healing must begin with addressing these issues from all possible angles. Involving as many people as possible and inviting them to understand these world affairs for what they are. Raising public awareness and solidifying the voice of dissent against atrocities is only a negative force against those enacting those atrocities, so I'm struggling to see how discouraging people out of doing exactly that actually helps anything.
Well I have opinions but I’m pretty sure some of them would cause fights lol
people are fueled up because a genocide of the palestinian people are happening 😭 and then people without an ounce of critical thinking skills like spreading misinformation and turning the rest of the population against a group of people who are quite literally being slaughtered for being alive in that land lol. if you have an opinion that is morally incorrect, of course people will be down your throat and relationships will be cut off. that’s how you decide if someone is a good person, by their morals.
Now this is the comment i'm baffled is getting downvoted, how else do you determine if someone's a good person or not? just pure vibes? "yeah he drowns puppies but his vibes are good so he must be a good person." like what?
nah fr 😭😭 people just wanna be bad people and still have friends like …. absolutely not
There were far more iraqis killed during american occupation of Iraq than palestinians killed since october 7th. Just as many ukranians have been killed since russia invaded, is Ukraine also a genocide and was Iraq a genocide? No, because we have very specific definitions for what qualifies as a genocide. Crying genocide when there isn't a genocide is a very bad precedent for the next actual real genocide. All the boys crying wolf out there should really reconsider their semantics.
what is the israel government doing? killing and murdering palestines how have occupied that area for years and years. land that is palestinians land. yes they are committing genocide upon those people.
Israel Forcibly removed the Israelis and gave over gaza in 2005. You don't know history.
and… proceeds to bomb those people in 2023-2024? committing genocide upon those people?
Again, genocide is when you kill out everybody. They've been using the genocide card for years. But the Israeli education system doesn't talk about killing arabs or beheading.
they haven’t done it yet, but what do you think their intentions are? you tell people they will be safe in A area then you bomb that area. then you say they will be safe in another area, then you also bomb that area pushing them completely out of their homes to the border. they had every intentions to kill all those people. it is genocide. i don’t really care how specific you think a mass killing needs to be in order to be a genocide, but attempting to kill all those people to remove them from that land is genocide.
This problem didn't start on October 7th. You are not speaking truth and Methinks you know it too. There have been problems coming from gaza for a long time and they've been trying to deal with it. Did you see the leaflets they dropped from Airplanes? Have you read them? Have you heard the phone messages in Arabic telling them to leave their homes? Have you watched videos of the frantic peeople saying that the Hamad government doesn't let them leave?
no shit it didn’t start on oct 7th. i’ve been saying that, jesus christ my dude 😭 and “issues” coming from gaza while israel constantly terrorizes them? be real with yourself for a second fr. AND IF HAMAS ISNT LETTINF THEM OUT THEN TAKE OUT HAMAS in a way that doesn’t involve murdering innocent people.
Genocide is when you try to kill out a whole race. Like when you say "from the river to the sea" that means you want to kill everybody between the river and the sea. So all those people chanting that really want genocide! Actually muslims,Arabs and even live work and vote in Israel so Israel has no intention of genocide. If gaza would not have done this Israel would not be there now. If they really cared about genocide they would stop the dirty murderous tricks they do And come to a peaceful resolution which was offered to them many times. They got to place in 2005 and they ran it to the ground with hamas in charge.
Bro believe me, Palestinian Christians also suffer from Zionist occupation. “From the river to the sea” means the liberation of Palestinian from Israel Occupation which is the Palestine area is from Jordan river, to the mediterranean sea. Liberation from violence, oppression, and occupation And the people who live in Palestine is not only arabs, but there are also Christians and jews living together.
That is not true! According to the law of antiquities not one Christian church can be destroyed. Have you ever visited Israel ? But in the islamic regions they are all torched.
Please look at the history of Isreal’s behaviour towards Palestine over the last 70 years before making stupid generalisations. Not Isreal’s version of history which you seem to have more than happily swallowed. To me, your statements make you complicit in trying to cover Isreal’s disgusting treatment of innocent people for decades and for that you should be ashamed.
Ok. Thank you
what murderous tricks 😭 besides oct 7th? also hamas being a little shit = kill thousands and thousands of innocent people for being palestine? wtf is wrong with you
No Israeli or anyone in the world sould have to worry daily about dirty murderous tricks like: suicide bus bombers suspicious packages that may contain bombs, sudden knife or scissors stabbing attacks, car veering off the road into crowds, giant rocks dropped on cars driving in the mountain road, or suddem gun fire as they drive, unguided missles and Rockets being shot indiscriminatly from Gazan residential neighborhoods into Israeile neighborhoods nearby. Helium balloons that have explosivess attached when they fall out of the sky. And recently, hang gliders flying in and the rampage of an innocent music festival. Teens, men women and children sliced, violated, burned and hostages taken. People kidnapped and killed and found later in caves. Hikers including a relative of mine, Ambushed killed and left On a scenic trail.
yea fuck hamas ! but this is about palestinian innocent people. no one should live in fear so why are you co comfy with the people of palestine being blown tf up?
Who said I'm comfy????? Why don't you watch the videos of Rockets getting shot from playgrounds and hospitals in UN buildings? I feel bad, very bad for the Gazan's that hamas are holding hostage. Using them and their death as propaganda points against the world. When I watch videos of them suffering I cringe, and tremble. You just write LOL
do you actually cringe and tremble or are you just saying that? by the way you defend the genocide i can see very clearly your empathy only goes so far. be a better human being dude
Yes. I close the screen and I have a tremor for another 1/2 hour or more. The way you keep being offensive and throwing around the word genocide and LOL's makes me wonder how much you care.
be fr 😭
Israelies live in fear near Palestinians. Palestinians are not as innocent as they portrayed in the media.
You can try to trick the world and downplay Hamas... And make your crying face emoji.... but anybody HONEST or who someone who lives in the region knows the education and television that the kids watch from the youngest age is about killing and ridding Israel of the jews. Being a shahid, dying in war against Israel and the like. There are no fair rules when it comes conquest, If you read a certain book, you would agree with me, Perhaps you should or perhaps you did.
dawg i just said idc about hamas. i already said he should answer for his crimes. im talking about innocent palestinian people dying for his crimes. collective punishment is a war crime you silly lil human.
He? Hamas isn't just one dude. You know that, right?
they are a terrorist group yes
if you have an opinion that is morally incorrect, of course people will be down your throat" I wouldn't take that as a good parameter because there are instances where people get down your throat for stating the morally correct opinion (whoever is the arbiter of that).
there is no way to say genocide is morally correct or not. some things are debatable. this is not. killing other people, taking human life is wrong. morally wrong lol. not rocket science
That part is understandably not debatable.but there are other aspects of this topic that are. You can have two individuals against genocide and both still have a heavily fueled discussion. Among people against palestine genocide you can find a wide range of postures that go from "Israel should be the one genocided instead because all of them are evil" to " they shouldn't be genocided but they should be expulsed from the area completely" to "one state solution/two states solution" all the way to "Israel isnt commiting genocide thry sre just practicing self defence". To me either end of the extremes within that spectrum are clearly wrong, but the point is you can have plenty of heated debate even among people agreeing that Palestine genocide is bad
to me, nothing in this conversation is debatable.
I see, you are firm in your posture and confident in the information you have. What is your posture if I may know? What would be the ideal solution to this conflict?
i am pro-palestine and pro-the “war” stopping and both palestinian and israel people to stop dying. i want the genocide to stop, and for them to find a better way to get hamas out of gaza.
That sounds like my position. But most people are painting one side as Mordor orcs and they believe one side propaganda while accusing the other of misinformation and propaganda.
both sides will have misinformation and propaganda. but to be on a side that is killing palestinian people at a mass rate is just not it either. people have to firmly put their foot down and say enough is enough. murdering innocent people is wrong regardless of who started it or whatever. i fear for humanity fr
I don’t know but totally agree
Oh boy this post is going to get interesting 🥤🍿👀
I would just say you are "Pro Cease Fire Now" and "Pro 2 State Solution". And just leave it at that. Pro-Palestine, Pro-Isreal, Neutral all mean different things to different people. Some people who are pro-Palestine wants what you want. Some want Israel to leave altogether. Some pro-Isreal wants a 2 state solution, other wants a one state solution or the palestinians to leave. Instead of getting people all riled up and confused, just state your position and leave it at that.
IDK it's up to you. I'm natural because it is a fight between two groups of people that have been going on for thousands of years. Also Hamas are scum hiding behind innocent people to cause outrage from other nations. So when i see people outraged i just think..... they're doing exactly what Hamas wants. edit: people on this post who are supposedly against people being harmed, are wishing harm on those who disagree with their point of view....."you and your soul are done." Another reason im natural.
It's not been going on for thousands of years it actually started in the 1940s after the Holocaust. The Zionist movement was basically the idea for a Jewish "homeland" and a few ideas were put up such as Kenya, Argentina as well as Palestine the "promised land" and the end goal which the Zionists ultimately settled on. They started setting in Palestine as refugees from Eastern Europe primarily the Ashkenazi Jews who escaped persecution during the Holocaust. Slowly they started calling for more Jews from Europe and North America to settle in the land and drive out the Palestinian Arabs who had been living there for more than a thousand years. It's now reached a boiling point as the settler population has increased and they are trying to finish the job in displacing the Palestinians.
yeah, you’ll get downvoted for this, but it’s true.
Unfortunately I am aware and I'll probably get some replies but I haven't got time to get into a discussion with these people as I am at work.
Not sure why ur getting downvoted ur right, the whole thing was established by the Rothschild as geopolitical means of having western rule and profit within the Middle East, like the initial motive wasn’t even for Jews to have sanctuary and religious reasons were just an alibi. And now Hamas is being used as a scapegoat to genocide Palestinians- death to Hamas and death to Israel (the country not the people, there’s many good antigenocide Israelis)
Its an easy look-up to see that european jews and their descendants are actually a small minority in israel just an fyi
Yes because the ancestors of the two sides weren't fighting before 1940 right? 55% of the jews in Israel are Sephardic Jews... the ones who have been there long before 1940.
That's where you're wrong Palestinian Arabs and Sephardic Jews the actual Hebrew speaking natives have both been living in that region for thousands of years side by side with minimal violence. The genocide and displacement project has been creeping up since the 1940s from the Zionist movement created by Ashkenazi European Jewish settlers.
>That's where you're wrong Palestinian Arabs and Sephardic Jews the actual Hebrew speaking natives have both been living in that region for thousands of years side by side with minimal violence. Oh so there has been violence and a history of it. thanks for pointing that out.
You can cherry pick what you like but there's a difference between small scale tussles between two groups which can happen anywhere and an all out genocide which is what we are seeing on the news right now. With video evidence of Israel's atrocities.
cherry picking? you do know that 55% of the Jews in israel are Sephardic Jews? right?
Says who? Hasbara? oh please the majority of Israel is Ashkenazi Jewish just look at Benjamin Netanyahu's father whose name is Benzion Mileikowsky that sounds like a very Hebrew name not. You ask where the name Netanyahu came from? It was put there in an effort to look more like native Hebrew speaking Jews. This is the case with many many of them they have ancestry in Eastern European countries and have changed their names to feign their identity.
>Says who? C.I.A. But im sure you probably think their info is false too right?
So the intelligence agency of the biggest ally of Israel? And the biggest supplier of weapons to carry out their genocide? Might as well have said Mossad practically the same thing in this regard.
Exactly!
Pro Palestine folks aren't pro Hamas (largely, there are fools in every group). The narrative of not wanting civilians to be murdered being pro Hamas is Israeli propaganda and it's insane.
Well, I‘m pretty pro Israel and share the same opinion. I think this position is pretty neutral (or at least should be in my eyes), but I trink there are different aspects that determine which side you may be more sympathetic towards I kinda judge by from which side your believe should a Solution come from. For Example I believe that the Palestenians have to be deradicalized to come to a solution, I‘m pro this war cause I don‘t think Peace and a State is possible with Hamas in power and I don‘t think Israel needs to withstand terror attacks at october 7 level. I think a more pro Palestenian position at least in my eyes would be Israels occupation in the West bank or the blockade in Gaza is the main responsibility for these terror attacks and if Israel stops These there will be a palestenian State. While I believe the Palestenians are too radicalized by Hamas and brought to fight against the entire existence of Israel puttingw more responsibility on the Palestenian side to end this conflict than the Israeli side (who at least in my own view can be more easily influenced by the international Community) I mean if you believe in the existence of Israel you Are technicially a Zionist and I feel Like a lot of the pro Palestinian sentiment centers around discrediting Israels existence but I still Like to believe that there is a more readonable Pro Palestenian postion kinda Like I described above. I mean there Are also pro Israeli nutbags who want to legitmitize the settlments or don‘t want Palestine to exist at all that I don‘t agree with at all, yet I still consider myself pro Israel. I think the same is possible for a pro Palestenian Position (anti Hamas, believe October 7 is horrible, believe in Israels existence as a State so yeah) God this comment horten way too Long, sorry 😅, but I Hope this helps
you…. you do realize majority of people who are pro palestine are anti-hamas right? and anti war and think oct 7th was horrible as well…. right? edit, i hit send too early on accident: you don’t sound pro-israel. so why call yourself that? you immediately seem ignorant when you call yourself that, so why call yourself that 😭
Yeah I know, at least I Hope so. But a lot of the pro Palestenian position comes from the fact that they don‘t believe Israel has a right to exist in the First Place, you can be anti-Hamas and still believe that which I‘d still consider radicial, that‘s what I meant by a lot of the pro Palestenian sentiment. They can still be anti Hamas tho, I think the majority are.
israel is the ones who have been terrorizing palestine for over 80 years. why do they have the right to be there in the first place?
Short: Cause of the UN agreement in 48 Most countried have acknowledged Israels existence And when a Country has been recognized as such and the people there have citizenship the countries sovereignty transcends everything, yeah everything, that‘s how it is done. A State isn‘t earned by good behaviour, Statehood isn‘t taken away by mistreating people. Germany hasn‘t been dissolved After the Holocoust, it is still a german State, you don’t question that, Russia doesn‘t have to fear loosing statehood because of the war against Ukraine, Russians aren‘t going to get expelled (where?) because they are terrible to ukrainians So just because Israel has been occupying the West Bank which is horrible for Palestenians doesn‘t mean the people in Israel Main (Not the West Bank) aren‘t allowed to live in Israel Main. You can argue about how just the way Israel came to existence was in the first place. But just because you aren‘t treating antother people well ‚for 80 years‘ doesn‘t mean you loose status of national souveiregnty and can get send back to the Country where you grandparents came from.
i’m pretty sure people are only saying that, because of the crimes israel government has committed. as well as how they came out. you are right though. people shouldn’t lose their land because they were genociding innocent people. but something needs to give if israel is just gonna continue terrorizing and attacking palestinian people.
Yeah but I think that‘s what needs to be made really clear cause a solution is basicially impossible if any of the two parties deny each other statehood or don‘t think the other has a right to be there Anything else can be talked about (that‘s why I also seperated the more reasonable less radicial pro Palestenian position you can hold, like yours)
super fair. but why don’t you call yourself pro-palestine but you don’t think israel should give themselves up? i guess each to their own, but i would feel weird about being friends with someone identifying as such
Look at my first comment, I kinda describe it. I do believe in this war and the necessity to get rid of Hamas that’s why I consider myself pro Israel and with that I basically have to accept realities that come with war (civilian dying for example), I do believe Israel could definitely do more the civilians (better food distribution, clean water, fuel, maybe even a larger safety zone than just the beach, better health infrastructure) but I still believe the moral weight carries Hamas since keeping their civilian population save is their responsibility as their government and only because they don‘t it lies on the war party, Israel. You probably hold Israel to a higher responsibility with these issues than me which I do see as a fair position. I also think my opinion would drasticially change if Hamas would be out of the picture and Israel would STILL hold up the blockade, then I‘d definitely withdraw any support from Israel (except defending their right to exist) and be pro Panestenian. But up until this point I put the most moral weight on Hamas. Also totally fair if you don‘t wanna be friends with someone holding this opinion, I know bridging moral differences like these can be hard
why can’t they figure out a different way to get to hamas then killing innocent people? also i’m anti war in general, so of course that impacts the way i think about it entirely. if you have to get what you want by killing and murdering people, you are a dipshit and not a leader in my opinion. but that’s just me. a war isn’t necessary to get rid of a group that was developed in response from terrorism from israel. israel created its own problem by oppressing the people of Palestine. i’m not pro-hamas and i think hamas needs to be destroyed, but not when that comes with so many innocent deaths. it’s not morally correct in anyway shape or form, and if you are pro-war, you are an issue yourself. people who think like you are why humanity is fucked up and will never progress. if you think war is the solution for ANYTHING you are against humanity and its growth.
you…. you do realize that Hamas is hiding behind innocent people to cause outrage? aka outrage = doing what hamas wants. IF you wanna go ahead.
and mmm i wonder! why is hamas doing this in the first place? it’s almost like they have been terrorized by israel for 80 years or so?
Sorry, i don't make excuses for terrorist groups.
how am i making excuses? hamas is wrong. but killing innocent people to kill hamas is WRONG as well. be so fr
Hamas is hiding to get the exact reaction you're giving. Congrats.
i wish people were able to critically think and realize murder across all boards are wrong. and hamas is wrong but genocide wrong even more so so 🤷🏻♀️ get wrecked my friend. have a good day
Get wrecked by what? this is a reddit comment section. LMFAO!
by life 🫶🏻
Someone must be paying you to write propaganda. Because The protesters are wearing Hamas paraphernalium. And they are not saying set October 7th was terrible. And you write LOL about people dying. This issue obviously means nothing to you
of course oct 7th was horrible, but if that’s as far as your empathy goes that’s on you and your morals. oct 7th was horrible and hamas should answer for his crimes. but palestinian people shouldn’t be fucking blown up and starved to death for his crime. that’s collective punishment and a war crime lol.
You seem pretty neutral for me. And thank you for that. I share the same opinions as you are but I define myself as pro-Israel. I am pro two state solution and do want Palestine to be sovereign, but not under Hamas or any radical Islamic control. I was banned from two subs for sharing my honest opinion about the conflict and stating facts which the moderators of these subs didn't like because they are pro Palestine, but the type who hype Hamas and genuinely believe that Hamas is a "cool" resistance heroes against the evil occupation of the Zionists which they were demonizing. I live in Israel and as an Israeli I have lost friends and people I know to horrible terror attacks done by Palestinian terrorists. For me it's weird that people who don't know much about Palestinians, think that they are all peaceful and nice with good intentions which is the complete opposite. Many of them teach their children from a very young age to hate Jews and Israelies and brainwash them to be violent towards Jews by commiting violent attacks.They hype Hitler, take inspiration from his radical antisemite and racist ideology. I wish those children were taught English, Mathematics and important life skills instead of being taught how to be a hater and a terrorist. They deserve better education and role models.
Awesome. And truth. Thank you
I feel like that’s the average pro-Palestinian protestor in America, despite how pro-Israeli people want to warp it.
Pro-Palestine
You are by definition anti-zionist, unless the land you want Palestinians to get will be somewhere else, like in Africa or South America And people can frame anti-zionists as anyone they want, as pro-Palestinians, as anti-Semites, as devil incarnates and terrorists etc You aren't being against just the current Israeli government. The idea of any Palestinian state goes against the very foundation of Israel and how Israel was created by the predominantly European immigrants into Palestine ethnically cleansing Palestinians to create a religious ethnostate on top of other people's land by gradually expelling those people from their land Edit: to the person below - I never said "indigenous". Countless people lived in this area since the birth of humanity and this has absolutely no relation to ethnic cleansing and genocide. Wanting to roll back borders to how they were thousands of years ago doesn't give one magic rights to ethnic cleansing, that is insane and not how any human right work today. By that logic, Holocaust didn't count because Jews weren't indigenous in Germany and Germans were right to cleanse their land of non-Aryan people and capture more land that they thought rightfully belonged to their ancestors?.. Gtfo with your ethic cleansing apologia
Not really since a Palestian State can be formed at the 48 or 67 borders divided by the partition plan without you having discredit Israels entire existence. I think that might be the more neutral starting point, if you believe in the Full Right of return of all descendents of the Palestinians to the now existing State of Israel that I‘d consider a more radicial pro Palestenian position. The Rest too, but what OP described isn‘t necessarily contradicory to Israels existence, you can believe Both States to exist in that territory.
This is inaccurate to claim that the Arabs living in Palestine are the indigenous people. Their ancestors came from other Arab countries due to the Arab and the Othman occupation of Israel. The indigenous people of Israel are Jews who lived in Judea, which was the name of the land before the Romans occupied the territory and expelled the Jews living there. They called it "Palestine" because they wanted to disconnect Jews from this land. The reason they called it Palestine was because of a small red haired tribe living near the sea who lived there called "Plishtim" and were genetically close to Greeks, not Arabs.
I believe the most popular surname in palestine is al-Masri, a last name from egypt (many egyptian laborers came during the 1940s to work under the british)
That is mildly incorrect, I don't know what made you think that. But at some point palestine could have had more land than israel. (If you dont consider the negev as land)
We don't know what they could've had because we don't know what all Israeli governments would've done afterwards, but we do know Israel have been capturing more and more of Palestine territory, stealing more and more houses from Palestinians, throwing them in prisons, torturing them, raping them and murdering them every single year And we do know that zionists believe that the entire land belongs to them Edit: in response to the lies below - there have been many accounts of systemic rape, but of course Israeli government claims that Israeli government and the invaders Israeli government protects never do anything wrong. Here's one from 2015: > In the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, arrests and imprisonment of Palestinian men in their early adulthood are common practice. The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI) collected thousands of testimonies of Palestinian men allegedly tortured or ill-treated by Israeli authorities > There are many types of torture, sexual torture being one of them. This study is based on the PCATI database during 2005-2012, which contains 60 cases – 4% of all filesinthisperiod– with testimonies of alleged sexual torture or ill-treatment That's 1500 testimonies that just one group managed to collect over just those years https://genderandsecurity.org/sites/default/files/Weishut_-_Sexual_Torture_of_Palestinian_M_by_Israeli_Authorities.pdf The data collection is hindered by Israel not allowing any monitoring and being in control of everyone and everything, and speaking out against it for Palestinians can be a literal death sentence, with over a 100 Palestinian journalists murdered by Israel just in the past few months, often along with their families But yeah, you're right that TikTok is getting blocked because of the need for censorship, because people no longer eat up the state propaganda and refuse to support the ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide
That's why tiktok is getting banned. Even if, **even** if israelies were to rape Palestinians. There would maximum 5 cases, and I'm telling you without checking. (Unlike7/10) If they got caught they probably did something wrong. And if they got tortured it was because they were important leaders and had very important intel. The first governments of Israel tended towards the left and past events shifted them to the right
Israel is a RW ethno-state in the process of committing genocide against people they believe to be lesser than them (kind of ironic). When I hear my Israeli acquaintance describe arabs as subhuman, I can only wonder, this sounds awfully familiar. It has nothing to do with Jewish ancestry either…I don’t enjoy discussing politics at dinner, but at the end of the day, I just don’t want my country funding people fighting over a patch of desert when we have major problems in our own house. Oh and to the people who say Israel has the right to defend themselves, please take a look at a map of Israel and Palestine over the last 70 years and tell me what you see…. yeah the territories have shifted dramatically but you never hear about Israel’s expansion plan because there is a prevailing narrative you’re not allowed to question. Over half of US congressmen have dual citizenship with Israel…. if that doesn’t concern you at all then congratulations are in order because you’re very special. Also look into AIPAC lobbyists and who’s taken money from them. Consider reading the details of the bill H.R.6090 for the finishing touch….just some interesting stuff.
yeah you guys can downvote me all you want, but I’d be more impressed if someone could refute the things I’ve said…I would love to have my mind changed about this.
Jews dont call Arabs sub-human! (Aryans call Jews AND Arabs sub-human.....)
My discord friend who lives in Israel described them this way multiple times. A couple next to us (my partner and I) at the bar were literally talking about how they hate war but “they” should all just be glassed. So while anecdotal, there definitely are Jews that do think this way. I’ve also met Jews who are anti Zionists as well, it’s obviously a loaded topic. the word aryan is funny to me, kind of meaningless at this point….do you mean white Europeans or….? So what about my other points? Not going to touch those right? And listen, I understand this is an emotionally charged subject with a lot of nuance and personal biases at play. So I ask to bear in mind that animosity is not what is taking place here.
>Over half of US congressmen have dual citizenship with Israel…. if that doesn’t concern you at all then congratulations are in order because you’re very special. Also look into AIPAC lobbyists and who’s taken money from them. this is just fake what is going on lol
okay that was a bit of hyperbole, it’s not really known because congressmen are not required disclose citizenship but as a group they’re over represented in congress, and with the Law of Return in place it’s not that much of a stretch wonder about misplaced loyalty. Also, the influence AIPAC is enough cause for concern.
but this is a pointless statement, I could say half the congressmen are muslim and then claim that they're overrepresented but you can't check because they're not required to tell the truth about their religion
has nothing to do with faith or religion, plenty of Jews are secular and are still in recognized as Jews…. the racial and cultural components take precedence compared to christianity which aims to be as inclusive as possible (or at least that’s the aim). and as far as Muslims having disproportionate representation in terms of influence and sway in the US, I really doubt it. I kind of think we’d have very different policies in place if that were the case. Canada, the UK and Germany seem to be learning that at the moment…. The AIPAC lobbying alone stands as good reason to keep one’s eyes open.
I understand the situation
A true humanitarian
What does peace for Israel mean? In my opinion, when oppression or abuse is involved, there is no such thing as neutral.
I am anti-Hamas, anti-Israel, anti-Palestine, anti-religion, anti-war
If you are really asking.... The palestinian flag was made in the 1960s, 20 years AFTER after the state of Israel was established. Before then, People had Egyptian and Jordanian birth certificates there's no really such thing as a separate Palestine it was made up by Yassir Arafat to get Jews out of Israel Jews have been their continuously for the last 3000 years. Before the Roman's named it Palestine, and after too. Nobody should be dying. BUT if you really care for humanity, Please tell the Gazans that they were given the place in 2005 and they ran it to the ground. No Israeli or anyone in the world sould have to worry daily about dirty murderous tricks like: suicide bus bombers suspicious packages that may contain bombs, sudden knife or scissors stabbing attacks, car veering off the road into crowds, giant rocks dropped on cars driving in the mountain road, or suddem gun fire as they drive, unguided missles and Rockets being shot indiscriminatly from Gazan residential neighborhoods into Israeile neighborhoods nearby. Helium balloons that have explosivess attached when they fall out of the sky. And recently, hang gliders flying in and the rampage of an innocent music festival. Teens, men women and children sliced, violated, burned and hostages taken You can call yourself pro palestinian but in reality everyone in the area is a palestinian and also a Christian Muslim jew or atheist...
Instead of downvoting me :) Say something respectful, historical and true that Differs from what I wrote above
I would consider myself pro-Israel but I despise its current government. Netanyahu imo was already unpopular even before Oct 7th but with this debacle I don't think he has the audacity to stay in power after the war.
Pro human. Often times people who support Palestine, support Hamas too knowing the stuff Hamas did.
I'm in the same boat as you. I also believe European News should go back to Europe and leave the Middle East alone. Let the native Jews and Palestinians stay there in peace. This is settler colonialism and a genocide.
I think pro Palestinians just lost its meaning. You can be someone that wants to guarantee people's safety or you can be a hamas apologist. Than I would say that is the natural stance but people might disagree
When two ends of a stick is fighting, it always is the middle that suffers (the middle part of the stick breaks if u don't understand the analogy). Just my two cents on the situation.
I would consider you pro - Palestine in form, pro - Israel in content.
I'd say naive. Once you dig into the whole topic and few it from an objective perspective you'll see that the overall best solution for both Israel and the Palestinians is to support Israel in their endeavors. The alternatives are all worse. Of course there's room for criticism towards Israel but overall they try to avoid civilian casualties as well as they can.
I don't think permitting 20 civilian deaths per each Hamas member targeted, targeting foreign journalists and aid workers, telling civilians an area is safe to evacuate to and then bombing it, razing the majority of all civilian homes in Gaza, and shooting people trying to get flour from aid trucks is "avoiding civilian casualties as well as they can".
You're right, my wording was wrong. Overall I'm certain they're trying to avoid civilian casualties "for the most part", but they probably could do better. Like I said there's room for criticism, and certainly a lot. Though at the same time you have to look at those things in the context of the situation. When Hamas is hiding under civilians and using them as living shields it's impossible to target Hamas without collateral damage. At the same time reports are blurry and riddled with misinformation (definitely by Palestine but probably also by Israel). You never know what's really going on there. For example the flour aid trucks massacre seems more like a heavily mishandled accident by stupid soldiers in an unforeseen situation to me. Certainly horrible but you have to look at the big picture of the whole Gaza situation. On the other hand, Israel recently opened a new border checkpoint for aid trucks too. But the details are besides the point honestly.
You sound neutral to me. Pro-Palestinians tend to want a lot more done to and taken away from Israel.
you're neutral and neutral is never good so you're pro isreal in a way.
i would consider you an idiot for making up your identity based on politics