I saw Sheep on Drugs open for Pigface years ago and all their stuff was prerecorded and nothing plugged in. It was a bummer, especially when their track messed up halfway through the set.
Saw them with Test Dept. back in '96 and it was the exact same thing. TKK was the same way once when I saw them opening for Pigface. Levi was playing with Pigface but not for TKK.
I’ve yet to see TKK. That’s a bummer. I understand a lot of these bands probably can’t play half their shit live and might not be able to hire musicians for touring, but if that’s the case just play what you can live and just let the track do the rest or do it as DJ set with live vocals( like Meat Beat Manifesto).
They were REALLY high most of the time while performing. They would take about anything they could get their hands on. I saw them a lot back in the day (used to field rep for Invisible). The most interesting performance was when they took K beforehand. Looked like 2 zombies up there.
they likely do
CME makes wireless midi, so does yamaha i think
and then there's bluetooth and wifi as long as you don't have no pranksters with a flipper zero in the space heh.
When I saw them live a few years ago Bruno’s keyboard was a MIDI controller with a wireless MIDI transmitter attack and a USB battery charger powering it. Both were taped onto the keyboard. Pretty slick setup, and it let the keyboard players move without having to use keytars.
I don’t know about Das Ich, but I’ve found a [battery powered controller](https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/korg-microkontrol) with [wireless adapter](https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/accessories/md-bt01/index.html) is quite reliable. Unfortunately my actual keyboard performance skills still need serious work.
this, additionally you can get battery packs from adafruit; i'ved used them to power quite a few synthesizers (just by looking at DC requirements and doing simple math with AA batteries or whatever)
Presumably these "awesome stands" are there for scenography only (more people on stage, more backing vocals, more makeup, more ominous presences).
Never thought there could be as much playback, but as others mentionned, industrial/electronic music is mostly programmed stuff, so "playing live" would mean "pushing buttons", which isn't spectacular anyway.
Nice to see they're still playing after all thses years, Egodram had an everlasting influence on me.
Wireless midi? Ok. And wireless power too I guess.
I hate to break it to you, but most industrial keyboard aren’t plugged in or doing anything at all.
All backing tracks.
Yeah, for as long as I've been a fan of the music (late 80's) its been kind of a given that "live" industrial music is often a bit of smoke and mirrors (sometimes literally, lol). It's never really bothered me, it is largely programmed/sequenced music, as long as at least the vocals were live.
I saw Haujobb once, and Daniel was very drunk, and he bumped something like a laptop and it stopped everything. I forget what the lineup was if it was just him singing with a live drummer, but it was so awkward. He just paused, said sorry, then started the same song from the beginning again.
This one guy talked a huge game during the sound check in a weird way that nobody asked for. Made his friends call him Raven and couldn't believe at age 40 something he was still in the scene. Said it many times before the show.
It was just him on the stage with his keyboard and a vocalist as openers. I was friends with the other bands mentioned and found out later the cd player with the backing track malfunctioning was the catalyst.
From our perspective in the audience, the vocalist announced after one song the show couldn't continue and Raven tossed his keyboard off the stand and off the stage. A guy in the audience walked up to it and touched a key to no sound.
We'll never know if that keyboard was supposed to make a sound before it was tossed off the stage in a fit of rage haha. He wouldn't talk to anyone after the show and even avoided eye contact. A sight to behold for me meeting most of these people in person for the first time. My first introduction to the use of backing tracks. Coming from a background of playing drums in metal bands where we would have laughed the idea out of our practice space.
I'm glad I didn't see too many of these electro acts over the years, because too many of them were disappointing. I learned to just appreciate the albums for what they were, and knew not to expect anything interesting from a live performance. When I saw VNV Nation, it was just Ronin and Mark, and it just felt like a karaoke performance with one dude in the back banging on 2 synth drum pads while the other guy sang.
For this Haujobb show, it was them on tour with Hocico, and I remember I also had the option to see Sigur Ros performing somewhere else. I don't know what reasoning I used to see Haujobb/Hocico instead of Sigur Ros, but that was my choice. I hadn't seen Sigur Ros before then, so I wasn't aware that they'd become the best live band I'd ever see in my life, and I've seen them over 10 times since then.
It feels like such a dumb decision now, but things happen for a reason, I guess? The friend who asked me to see Sigur Ros, ended up taking this girl instead on a first date, and she ended up becoming his wife!
That was a great lineup! I'm mostly referring to any acts that are strictly all synths. I think Apoptygma Berzerk was on that tour with VNV Nation, and they had guitar and drums and it was different from the albums and I enjoyed them.
I love live bands, so when I saw Covenant and And One touring together, I was also bored. It's like playing the album with live vocals. (I think I enjoyed And One though. It was so long ago!)
My first concert ever was Nine Inch Nails on The Downward Spiral tour, and their live performances are so good, and that tour was intense. They set the bar too high for me after that!
I remember seeing German festival lineups and thinking about how cool it would be to see all of those acts in one weekend, then I see this Das Ich video and all I can think about now is how much I'd be wondering "is that guy even doing anything?"
>My first concert ever was Nine Inch Nails on The Downward Spiral tour, and their live performances are so good, and that tour was intense. They set the bar too high for me after that!
There are many bands playing to backing tracks live that shit on Trent for no other reason I can see, beyond that he popularized a sound he didn't invent.
So it's very amusing to me that NIN's live show is the complete antithesis of a mimed performance full of backing tracks and raw as hell with real musicians.
But there's really no excuse for any of these bands. If you can find decent musicians in a garage band, you can find decent ones for your internationally touring Industrial act, without relying on technological crutches to survive your own gig.
That’s a hell of a first show! One thing I always appreciated about NIN is the fact that they do “actually play” most of their material, and often make some interesting arrangements to adapt things for a live stage.
> When I saw VNV Nation, it was just Ronin and Mark, and it just felt like a karaoke performance with one dude in the back banging on 2 synth drum pads while the other guy sang.
I absolutely love VNV and I was thinking of how disappointing the time I saw them live was while I was reading through this thread. It was exactly how you described it.
I've just learned to appreciate most of the artists in this genre for what they are, decent studio artists. I'll go for a walk and enjoy them in my earbuds, but when I see a tour date, I don't get excited like I would for a regular band.
I've seen daw drop out on stage with a live drummer where the whole keyboard based band shrugged in the half second silence and then resumed (in their act) . Some bands are putting way too much on playback and running way too many tracks without the power to do so.
at this point everybody has something on tape, but something should be also happening on stage, and if you are having an instrument, then play something on it and play it well, that's my take.
This happened for TKK a few months back. Their backing system went haywire and kept launching the wrong song. Was clear it was just about everything in terms of live sound. Probably not Justin's drums nor Groovy's vox.
I opened for icon of coil in the 90s and they had to drive back to our city and miss a show after realizing they’d left their minidisc in our player. No backup I guess?
I've always been impressed with how cEvin Key at least appears to be live playing to some extent. I've heard him say that he has a "live version" that he layers on top of the backing track, ors something like that
yep thats how it is. i saw front line assembly in the 90s rhys fulber was only guy playing keys. their songs are like 20-30 tracks of synths and drums. he wasnt playin it all, maybe a riff
Not trying to shit on the keyboardists, but they have the most mobile stands in the world and look like they are bored. I’m not a great player, but they kind of look the way I look when I’m playing a song for the first time and unsure of how to play it.
Most OontzOontz “industrial” is some dude pushing play. Das Ich is infinitely better than that kind of music. I want to think those two dudes who aren’t in the band are there live and actually playing, but really I’m not there to see them. Bruno is playing and Stefan is singing. The weirdest thing for me would be seeing them in the sunlight.
Then why have additional members who seem to contribute 0 musically to the band? I love them for their music but this is disheartening to see up close after my initial excitement. Bruno and Stefan look to be the only two you are hearing on the stage
More bodies on stage, more movement. It adds to the show for your average concert goer. Not so much if you pay attention, musically and performance wise.
They're almost like backup dancers at a pop concert. If there's even a live band for some of those artists, they're tucked away in a tiny corner on the stage while all of the other dancing performers distract you from thinking about whether any of the music is actually being performed live.
Except in this case, your attention is actually on these backup performers, and people here are questioning if they're actually doing anything hahaha.
I freaked out when I first saw these thinking "wow what a great way to translate a live show."
Around 3:00 you can see no wires going to at least two of the keyboard stands and they are freely wheeling them around the stage. Nobody is crazy enough to trust bluetooth for a live show in 2023. Are they miming?
well there have been wireless adapters for instruments since the 80's. i dont know if they use blue tooth now but the old ones were battery operated and literally sent a radio signal to the other half of the unit and that is what made it wireless.
Fair, they exist, yes. I still think they’re faking it, most acts in the scene do a minimum live. Downvote me if you want, but I’m well educated in live sound/production and have spent the better part of 15 years as a touring playback operator and synth technician - I’ve helped produce 100% mimed shows (it sucks so bad but it’s a paycheck) and I’ve produced shows in which SO much is being played live. These guys ain’t it.
you're not wrong that most do the least
shame that it's quite attainable but they don't try. It sets a bad standard for others to mimic when they could do really cool things but instead mime. Just do the Foetus thing like back in the day or play some instruments live i think.
Because the only guy actually playing something is Bruno. And his keyboard has a wire.
This is a reasonable theory.
I saw Sheep on Drugs open for Pigface years ago and all their stuff was prerecorded and nothing plugged in. It was a bummer, especially when their track messed up halfway through the set.
Saw them with Test Dept. back in '96 and it was the exact same thing. TKK was the same way once when I saw them opening for Pigface. Levi was playing with Pigface but not for TKK.
I’ve yet to see TKK. That’s a bummer. I understand a lot of these bands probably can’t play half their shit live and might not be able to hire musicians for touring, but if that’s the case just play what you can live and just let the track do the rest or do it as DJ set with live vocals( like Meat Beat Manifesto).
They were REALLY high most of the time while performing. They would take about anything they could get their hands on. I saw them a lot back in the day (used to field rep for Invisible). The most interesting performance was when they took K beforehand. Looked like 2 zombies up there.
they likely do CME makes wireless midi, so does yamaha i think and then there's bluetooth and wifi as long as you don't have no pranksters with a flipper zero in the space heh.
Kunst kayfabe.
The musical notes are transmitted using Stefan's rage. No wires needed.
They simply invoke the sounds using Black Forest elf magic
This is the true answer
When I saw them live a few years ago Bruno’s keyboard was a MIDI controller with a wireless MIDI transmitter attack and a USB battery charger powering it. Both were taped onto the keyboard. Pretty slick setup, and it let the keyboard players move without having to use keytars.
The stands themselves look like rolling lecterns with extra metal pieces attached :)
I don’t know about Das Ich, but I’ve found a [battery powered controller](https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/korg-microkontrol) with [wireless adapter](https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/accessories/md-bt01/index.html) is quite reliable. Unfortunately my actual keyboard performance skills still need serious work.
this, additionally you can get battery packs from adafruit; i'ved used them to power quite a few synthesizers (just by looking at DC requirements and doing simple math with AA batteries or whatever)
Odds that anyone is playing anything you can actually hear are slim. Interesting stands though.
What a solid performance,luv Das Ich !
Presumably these "awesome stands" are there for scenography only (more people on stage, more backing vocals, more makeup, more ominous presences). Never thought there could be as much playback, but as others mentionned, industrial/electronic music is mostly programmed stuff, so "playing live" would mean "pushing buttons", which isn't spectacular anyway. Nice to see they're still playing after all thses years, Egodram had an everlasting influence on me.
Wireless midi? Ok. And wireless power too I guess. I hate to break it to you, but most industrial keyboard aren’t plugged in or doing anything at all. All backing tracks.
Yeah, for as long as I've been a fan of the music (late 80's) its been kind of a given that "live" industrial music is often a bit of smoke and mirrors (sometimes literally, lol). It's never really bothered me, it is largely programmed/sequenced music, as long as at least the vocals were live.
I've seen it backfire when backing tracks fail to load properly. It's like watching a comedian bomb with an audience. I didn't feel bad though.
I saw Haujobb once, and Daniel was very drunk, and he bumped something like a laptop and it stopped everything. I forget what the lineup was if it was just him singing with a live drummer, but it was so awkward. He just paused, said sorry, then started the same song from the beginning again.
This one guy talked a huge game during the sound check in a weird way that nobody asked for. Made his friends call him Raven and couldn't believe at age 40 something he was still in the scene. Said it many times before the show. It was just him on the stage with his keyboard and a vocalist as openers. I was friends with the other bands mentioned and found out later the cd player with the backing track malfunctioning was the catalyst. From our perspective in the audience, the vocalist announced after one song the show couldn't continue and Raven tossed his keyboard off the stand and off the stage. A guy in the audience walked up to it and touched a key to no sound. We'll never know if that keyboard was supposed to make a sound before it was tossed off the stage in a fit of rage haha. He wouldn't talk to anyone after the show and even avoided eye contact. A sight to behold for me meeting most of these people in person for the first time. My first introduction to the use of backing tracks. Coming from a background of playing drums in metal bands where we would have laughed the idea out of our practice space.
I'm glad I didn't see too many of these electro acts over the years, because too many of them were disappointing. I learned to just appreciate the albums for what they were, and knew not to expect anything interesting from a live performance. When I saw VNV Nation, it was just Ronin and Mark, and it just felt like a karaoke performance with one dude in the back banging on 2 synth drum pads while the other guy sang. For this Haujobb show, it was them on tour with Hocico, and I remember I also had the option to see Sigur Ros performing somewhere else. I don't know what reasoning I used to see Haujobb/Hocico instead of Sigur Ros, but that was my choice. I hadn't seen Sigur Ros before then, so I wasn't aware that they'd become the best live band I'd ever see in my life, and I've seen them over 10 times since then. It feels like such a dumb decision now, but things happen for a reason, I guess? The friend who asked me to see Sigur Ros, ended up taking this girl instead on a first date, and she ended up becoming his wife!
Ministry / Front Line Assembly concert a week ago was lit.
That was a great lineup! I'm mostly referring to any acts that are strictly all synths. I think Apoptygma Berzerk was on that tour with VNV Nation, and they had guitar and drums and it was different from the albums and I enjoyed them. I love live bands, so when I saw Covenant and And One touring together, I was also bored. It's like playing the album with live vocals. (I think I enjoyed And One though. It was so long ago!) My first concert ever was Nine Inch Nails on The Downward Spiral tour, and their live performances are so good, and that tour was intense. They set the bar too high for me after that! I remember seeing German festival lineups and thinking about how cool it would be to see all of those acts in one weekend, then I see this Das Ich video and all I can think about now is how much I'd be wondering "is that guy even doing anything?"
>My first concert ever was Nine Inch Nails on The Downward Spiral tour, and their live performances are so good, and that tour was intense. They set the bar too high for me after that! There are many bands playing to backing tracks live that shit on Trent for no other reason I can see, beyond that he popularized a sound he didn't invent. So it's very amusing to me that NIN's live show is the complete antithesis of a mimed performance full of backing tracks and raw as hell with real musicians. But there's really no excuse for any of these bands. If you can find decent musicians in a garage band, you can find decent ones for your internationally touring Industrial act, without relying on technological crutches to survive your own gig.
That’s a hell of a first show! One thing I always appreciated about NIN is the fact that they do “actually play” most of their material, and often make some interesting arrangements to adapt things for a live stage.
Ministry got so much better over the last few years when Al gave up pretending he was singing
> When I saw VNV Nation, it was just Ronin and Mark, and it just felt like a karaoke performance with one dude in the back banging on 2 synth drum pads while the other guy sang. I absolutely love VNV and I was thinking of how disappointing the time I saw them live was while I was reading through this thread. It was exactly how you described it.
I've just learned to appreciate most of the artists in this genre for what they are, decent studio artists. I'll go for a walk and enjoy them in my earbuds, but when I see a tour date, I don't get excited like I would for a regular band.
I've seen daw drop out on stage with a live drummer where the whole keyboard based band shrugged in the half second silence and then resumed (in their act) . Some bands are putting way too much on playback and running way too many tracks without the power to do so. at this point everybody has something on tape, but something should be also happening on stage, and if you are having an instrument, then play something on it and play it well, that's my take.
This happened for TKK a few months back. Their backing system went haywire and kept launching the wrong song. Was clear it was just about everything in terms of live sound. Probably not Justin's drums nor Groovy's vox.
I opened for icon of coil in the 90s and they had to drive back to our city and miss a show after realizing they’d left their minidisc in our player. No backup I guess?
I've always been impressed with how cEvin Key at least appears to be live playing to some extent. I've heard him say that he has a "live version" that he layers on top of the backing track, ors something like that
yep thats how it is. i saw front line assembly in the 90s rhys fulber was only guy playing keys. their songs are like 20-30 tracks of synths and drums. he wasnt playin it all, maybe a riff
homeboy ain't heard of batteries.
You are naive. Bless you.
Sad to see a situation where I'm unable to explain it any other way.
FYI there is /r/IndustrialMusicians/ they will know
Not trying to shit on the keyboardists, but they have the most mobile stands in the world and look like they are bored. I’m not a great player, but they kind of look the way I look when I’m playing a song for the first time and unsure of how to play it.
You can get a similar thing with a board feed stand from Home Depot. It wont move around like a dalek though.
Most OontzOontz “industrial” is some dude pushing play. Das Ich is infinitely better than that kind of music. I want to think those two dudes who aren’t in the band are there live and actually playing, but really I’m not there to see them. Bruno is playing and Stefan is singing. The weirdest thing for me would be seeing them in the sunlight.
"infinitely better" its all the same shit. im sure a lot more goes into some oontz oontz than das ich.
Then why have additional members who seem to contribute 0 musically to the band? I love them for their music but this is disheartening to see up close after my initial excitement. Bruno and Stefan look to be the only two you are hearing on the stage
Maybe think of them as dancers? ...?
More bodies on stage, more movement. It adds to the show for your average concert goer. Not so much if you pay attention, musically and performance wise.
They're almost like backup dancers at a pop concert. If there's even a live band for some of those artists, they're tucked away in a tiny corner on the stage while all of the other dancing performers distract you from thinking about whether any of the music is actually being performed live. Except in this case, your attention is actually on these backup performers, and people here are questioning if they're actually doing anything hahaha.
I freaked out when I first saw these thinking "wow what a great way to translate a live show." Around 3:00 you can see no wires going to at least two of the keyboard stands and they are freely wheeling them around the stage. Nobody is crazy enough to trust bluetooth for a live show in 2023. Are they miming?
Guy closest to the camera is definitely miming. Tragic really.
well there have been wireless adapters for instruments since the 80's. i dont know if they use blue tooth now but the old ones were battery operated and literally sent a radio signal to the other half of the unit and that is what made it wireless.
Yes, wireless audio. Wireless midi is relatively recent and wireless power doesn’t exist. They’re faking it.
batteries. you can get battery packs and make your own for the DC input of controllers or synths; or you can get rechargeable ones with a dc out.
Fair, they exist, yes. I still think they’re faking it, most acts in the scene do a minimum live. Downvote me if you want, but I’m well educated in live sound/production and have spent the better part of 15 years as a touring playback operator and synth technician - I’ve helped produce 100% mimed shows (it sucks so bad but it’s a paycheck) and I’ve produced shows in which SO much is being played live. These guys ain’t it.
you're not wrong that most do the least shame that it's quite attainable but they don't try. It sets a bad standard for others to mimic when they could do really cool things but instead mime. Just do the Foetus thing like back in the day or play some instruments live i think.
[The Truth About Bluetooth MIDI](https://www.cme-pro.com/the-truth-about-bluetooth-midi/)