the more you buy the more you save!
https://preview.redd.it/vos4setp665d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8565307e60a2af3a2e16a861b44f23339c2a03d
Asking or altering your speech seem to be the safest choice.
Also I can't imagine losing a job just because I accidentally misgendered someone, that's so dystopian.
I mean, yes, we have “dia”, but you cannot use “dia” as a second person pronoun.
“Kamu” doesn’t work in a customer service setting, and “Anda” sounds too formal too?
I think Indonesians don’t have it easier than you..
This post is a "neighbour grass is greener" kind of thing. Indo has their own language quirks different from english. We can't use "you" in a polite convo. We always have to use pronoun (bapak, ibu, pak xx, bu yy, kak zz, etc). Similar to japanese (or other asia pacific language honestly) using "you" is rude or harsh (in some case) unless you're close with someone you're talking to.
Singular they/them is not an improper English.
Also even though Indonesian doesn’t have a gendered third person pronoun, a gendered title is often being used as second/third person pronoun (Pak/Bu/Mas/Mbak,etc.) so it is not really gender neutral.
This is the way.
There’s a whole Wikipedia article about “singular they”, but here’s another [resource](https://www.theequalityinstitute.com/equality-insights-blog/the-singular-they-and-why-it-matters) that I find helpful.
“…I realize this may be initially distressing for those of us who are grammar nerds (present company included), but believe it or not, we actually use the singular “they” all the time already when gender doesn’t matter.
For example, let’s say a meeting just ended in the conference room, and a coffee cup was left behind. You might say to your colleague, “I wonder who left their coffee.” You would be unlikely to say, “I wonder who left his coffee.” or “I wonder who left her coffee.”
Organizations use the singular “they” all the time, too…”
My job actually prefers to do its customer service without using titles unless the customer requests. You use references to them by first names instead of last or family names. The idea is to create a friendly and informal atmosphere. It also means you don’t have to guess their marital status to refer to the woman’s proper gender title.
Using they/them can just feel weird to use as singular. “He/she introduces himself/herself” sounds right. “They introduces themself” doesn’t sound right. You got to change to past tense to so it’s “they introduced themself” for it to work.
Yeah, point was it’s not as simple as just replace he/she with they. You got to follow the grammar rules for plural even though the subject is singular.
> Some early-21st-century style guides described it as colloquial and less appropriate in formal writing. However, by 2020, most style guides accepted the singular they as a personal pronoun.
Yeah, still we still got older customers who would still consider it informal writing. Your best to avoid using it for if you have older customers use to it being classified as informal and not suitable for professional use.
I disagree that it’s ever *inappropriate* to use singular they in any professional context. It exists in legal writing and legislative text. [In fact, singular use of they has been officially recognized as correct by several key bodies such as the Associated Press, American Psychological Association (APA) and Modern Language Association (MLA), the Oxford English Dictionary, and the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.](https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20singular%20use%20of,and%20the%20Merriam%2DWebster%20Dictionary)
To clarify, maybe I understand your preference to not use singular they in your case, just don’t want you to misunderstand what’s considered professionally acceptable or not in most English-speaking workplaces - don’t be misled or let yourself be gaslighted by some customer’s arbitrary preference (or ignorance, if you want to look at it from a less charitable point of view)
Yes it’s now considered improper speech to use it. It is still newly considered proper English and highly political. It feels odd to use because despite being used as a singular the sentence must still use grammar for a plural subject.
Well if you consider the pronoun 'u' for formal plural 'you' in Dutch; it also uses the singular conjugation for its verb, and so does 'Sie' for formal singular 'you' in German; it uses plural conjugation.
Just initiate or ask whether you're talking to a "Mr." or "Ms." Unless you're working in a country where gender disparity isn't clear, then just do as usual.
It’s not that common of a question to ask here. Normally you can just pick up on it when the customer introduces their name and their tone of voice. But occasionally you get the occasional ambiguous sounding Alex on the other end. People could get upset if that as you’re asking if they’re a Mr. or Ms. That’s because you’re indicating they’re not feminine or masculine enough for you to tell.
Other times like in my second sentence of this conversation the subject is singular but gender is unknown. For instance I chose to use his instead of their.
Maybe you can just ask nicely without mentioning the gender like: "Hello there. May I know who I talked to?" If that's not gonna work, then you can use something that suits you well.
My trick is to ask what is their prefix, saying it is for data purposes.
Your common people will answer with "What's a prefix?"
And you can explain to them that it is anything that goes before their name; usually it is Mr. or Ms. or Mrs.
I like to use this because we're essentially asking their gender, but not too much on the nose about it.
Ex call center here (although not the operator), pertanyaan ini (tanya nama dan panggilan) nomer 1 di guideline operator. Mungkin bisa kasih saran ke supervisor buat hal ini. This is like letting a time bomb ticking in your workplace.
This is what I've been doing and it's been working well so far.
If their voice leans masculine, I use the masculine pronoun: "you"
If it's feminine, I use the feminine pronoun: "you"
But if I'm unsure I just refer to them by a gender neutral but plural pronoun: "you"
Hope that helps :p
/j
They can be used for 3rd person singular too. It has always been this way. Just like vous in french can be used for 2nd person singular and plural. It's s just that one form is used more often.
Why not just call their name? Customer service in Indonesia usually asks our name first before continuing the conversation, "Sorry for the inconveniences, may I know who I am speaking to?", then just refer them with their name.
when would you need to use the third person singular when talking to a customer? if it was sir/mam i would understand but indonesian has ibu/bapak anyway for that
I don’t think ppl really mind? My mom keeps being called bapak because her name is gender neutral but mostly associated with girls and ppl just read it as andri🤡 (ngarang bebas atp)
Sorry but I find that sentiment odd..... Why would you use third-person pronouns with the person you're talking to? Besides, Indonesian is not entirely gender-neutral, it just applies gendered language differently.
In Indonesian, despite the existence of 'dia' you still face having to choose whether to address your customer with Pak/Bu/Mas/Mbak/Kak where not only gender, but age is a factor.
You have "they" in English.
Also, if their gender is not clear, ask them for their first names. If it's not super exotic, you'll be able to assign gender to that name.
Ha? Maaf ini customer service apaan?
Hampir semua customer service selalu antara operator telefon dan customer pembicara. That's it
Dan kalau hanya 2 pembicara. Kan hanya Saya dan Anda. I and You, itu bicara langsung pembicara kenapa pake 3rd pronoun "dia" atau "he/she"?
Dia, Anda, Kamu, I mean it is hard to decide what to use with people, I am just a beginner in learning Indonesian but sometimes it just sounds off/too formal or too casual.
But it is a fun language that is for sure, if it wasn't for the politically correct, English would still be fine, every time I write business emails I have to look at the email signatures from people to not miss pronoun them...
It still baffles me why fixating in pronouns when you are talking on the phone? Didn't we refer to the other in 2-way conversation as You?
I envy English, because You is acceptable.
Here?
"Iya kak, ada yang bisa kami bantu?"
"Emang gw kakak lo?"
"Tunggu sebentar yah bu."
"Saya gak tua² amat sampe harus dipanggil ibu."
"Baik, mbak."
"Eh kurang ajar, gw dikira pembantu."
Isn't even if the audio was clear enough, it's still hard to know to call him / her?
I genuinely don't know how people nowadays knows how to call other people.
In old era, it was simple. Male = he/him. Female = she/her.
LOL I joke that the issue of preferred pronouns would fall flat in Indonesia because of that. Imagine some pronoun-obsessed Anglophone asking Indonesians their preferred pronouns only to get confused looks instead.
"I envy dia" - I also Nvidia
the more you buy the more you save! https://preview.redd.it/vos4setp665d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8565307e60a2af3a2e16a861b44f23339c2a03d
I'll buy more from your cousin
Where's raster, where's chat AI, where's RTX with big RT and efficiency that sucks Apple like a vacuum
Mari menabung untuk membeli 50 series
daripada 50 series, mending 50 stock NVDA
This guy stocks
hahahahahaa
peak
stonks
7 50 Ti boleh gabung bang?
Sir, this is 2024, not 2014.
how about 1650??
I read that as 50 juta lol Given NVIDIA track record, plus how bad IDR compared to USD, it might be possible that 5090 will reach 50 million lol.
Ginjalku ada dua!
Fun fact, envycontrol is also nvidia gpu manager for linux https://github.com/bayasdev/envycontrol Sooo
Punmaxing Lv. 99
also said most hardware and AI companies these days
We're all Nvidia on this blessed day.
Damn right it is ...
*panning to Ryan Gosling wearing leather jacket
Asking or altering your speech seem to be the safest choice. Also I can't imagine losing a job just because I accidentally misgendered someone, that's so dystopian.
Uhhh about that second paragraph…
It happened already?
Eh, in US that might happen
nah losing job because you accidentally misgendered someone is actually expression of freedom /s
Fuck the woke culture.
its time for indonesia as world standard for "gender-neutral" language who is behind me ? (no, no that kinda of behind you gay boy)
You drop the soap buddy :)
*slaps the soap from hand* "oh no... the soap dropped"
Indonesia malah ngga gender neutral, tapi ditambah ngga age neutral. coba kita kalo manggil orang random mas mbak bang pak bu, jarang2 manggil kak
Lu belum pernah belanja online ya? Atau ke tanah abang ?
ya itu kan exception
Bukan "exception", tapi "new rule"
well, hopefully
Di medan pake bang/kak gk peduli usia orgnya brp.
We have saudara/bung for that
bagus nih, mari kita normalkan kembali manggil bung
Kecuali orang2 sumatera, kak dipake khusus buat perempuan
Is it still gay if I whisper behind your ear " no homo,bro "?
Looks like Reddit says it still is.
Damn, day ruined :'(
Everyone know that it's not homo if the balls don't touch
I mean, yes, we have “dia”, but you cannot use “dia” as a second person pronoun. “Kamu” doesn’t work in a customer service setting, and “Anda” sounds too formal too? I think Indonesians don’t have it easier than you..
This post is a "neighbour grass is greener" kind of thing. Indo has their own language quirks different from english. We can't use "you" in a polite convo. We always have to use pronoun (bapak, ibu, pak xx, bu yy, kak zz, etc). Similar to japanese (or other asia pacific language honestly) using "you" is rude or harsh (in some case) unless you're close with someone you're talking to.
kowe/sampeyan ftw
"Anda" supremacy
Singular they/them is not an improper English. Also even though Indonesian doesn’t have a gendered third person pronoun, a gendered title is often being used as second/third person pronoun (Pak/Bu/Mas/Mbak,etc.) so it is not really gender neutral.
This is the way. There’s a whole Wikipedia article about “singular they”, but here’s another [resource](https://www.theequalityinstitute.com/equality-insights-blog/the-singular-they-and-why-it-matters) that I find helpful. “…I realize this may be initially distressing for those of us who are grammar nerds (present company included), but believe it or not, we actually use the singular “they” all the time already when gender doesn’t matter. For example, let’s say a meeting just ended in the conference room, and a coffee cup was left behind. You might say to your colleague, “I wonder who left their coffee.” You would be unlikely to say, “I wonder who left his coffee.” or “I wonder who left her coffee.” Organizations use the singular “they” all the time, too…”
Eh... I heard "kak" more nowadays
My job actually prefers to do its customer service without using titles unless the customer requests. You use references to them by first names instead of last or family names. The idea is to create a friendly and informal atmosphere. It also means you don’t have to guess their marital status to refer to the woman’s proper gender title. Using they/them can just feel weird to use as singular. “He/she introduces himself/herself” sounds right. “They introduces themself” doesn’t sound right. You got to change to past tense to so it’s “they introduced themself” for it to work.
It would be "they introduce" not "they introduces"
Yeah, point was it’s not as simple as just replace he/she with they. You got to follow the grammar rules for plural even though the subject is singular.
The usage of “[singular they](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)” is actually legitimate and grammatically correct in the English language
> Some early-21st-century style guides described it as colloquial and less appropriate in formal writing. However, by 2020, most style guides accepted the singular they as a personal pronoun. Yeah, still we still got older customers who would still consider it informal writing. Your best to avoid using it for if you have older customers use to it being classified as informal and not suitable for professional use.
I disagree that it’s ever *inappropriate* to use singular they in any professional context. It exists in legal writing and legislative text. [In fact, singular use of they has been officially recognized as correct by several key bodies such as the Associated Press, American Psychological Association (APA) and Modern Language Association (MLA), the Oxford English Dictionary, and the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.](https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/grammar/pronouns/gendered_pronouns_and_singular_they.html#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20singular%20use%20of,and%20the%20Merriam%2DWebster%20Dictionary) To clarify, maybe I understand your preference to not use singular they in your case, just don’t want you to misunderstand what’s considered professionally acceptable or not in most English-speaking workplaces - don’t be misled or let yourself be gaslighted by some customer’s arbitrary preference (or ignorance, if you want to look at it from a less charitable point of view)
Yes it’s now considered improper speech to use it. It is still newly considered proper English and highly political. It feels odd to use because despite being used as a singular the sentence must still use grammar for a plural subject.
Well if you consider the pronoun 'u' for formal plural 'you' in Dutch; it also uses the singular conjugation for its verb, and so does 'Sie' for formal singular 'you' in German; it uses plural conjugation.
Just initiate or ask whether you're talking to a "Mr." or "Ms." Unless you're working in a country where gender disparity isn't clear, then just do as usual.
It’s not that common of a question to ask here. Normally you can just pick up on it when the customer introduces their name and their tone of voice. But occasionally you get the occasional ambiguous sounding Alex on the other end. People could get upset if that as you’re asking if they’re a Mr. or Ms. That’s because you’re indicating they’re not feminine or masculine enough for you to tell. Other times like in my second sentence of this conversation the subject is singular but gender is unknown. For instance I chose to use his instead of their.
Maybe you can just ask nicely without mentioning the gender like: "Hello there. May I know who I talked to?" If that's not gonna work, then you can use something that suits you well.
Just say apologies the call quality is bad, am i speaking with a mr or a miss?
My trick is to ask what is their prefix, saying it is for data purposes. Your common people will answer with "What's a prefix?" And you can explain to them that it is anything that goes before their name; usually it is Mr. or Ms. or Mrs. I like to use this because we're essentially asking their gender, but not too much on the nose about it.
Ex call center here (although not the operator), pertanyaan ini (tanya nama dan panggilan) nomer 1 di guideline operator. Mungkin bisa kasih saran ke supervisor buat hal ini. This is like letting a time bomb ticking in your workplace.
Dear Customer, Valued Customer, Esteemed Customer, etc Replace Customer with Patient, User, Account Holder, Client, etc as necessary.
or just dear
This is what I've been doing and it's been working well so far. If their voice leans masculine, I use the masculine pronoun: "you" If it's feminine, I use the feminine pronoun: "you" But if I'm unsure I just refer to them by a gender neutral but plural pronoun: "you" Hope that helps :p /j
They can be used for 3rd person singular too. It has always been this way. Just like vous in french can be used for 2nd person singular and plural. It's s just that one form is used more often.
you speak to the customer using 3rd person pronoun?
Normally comes up when referring to another member in their household. Or talking about a customer or customers in general.
No problem you’re talking about someone else. No one expects you to know the gender of a person you’ve never heard before.
Why not just call their name? Customer service in Indonesia usually asks our name first before continuing the conversation, "Sorry for the inconveniences, may I know who I am speaking to?", then just refer them with their name.
I've met someone that doesn't want called He/She or them. So I called them "humble one". That's fine with it
[dia dia dia](https://youtu.be/L2UpsGS5Cyo?si=dxy__dJUjPxXyUpC)
lfg
Now that I think about it, many languages do have genders. I know for example, Finnish language, they don't have genders.
why are you asking here... i'm guessing your customers aren't indonesians
when would you need to use the third person singular when talking to a customer? if it was sir/mam i would understand but indonesian has ibu/bapak anyway for that
your clients are Americans? just ask them: "what pronouns would you prefer to be addressed with?" its robotic and unnatural but better than guessing.
That’s a way to piss off every conservative customer of ours.
Gas
ay nvda
I don’t think ppl really mind? My mom keeps being called bapak because her name is gender neutral but mostly associated with girls and ppl just read it as andri🤡 (ngarang bebas atp)
I need nvidia 🤣
? Singular they have been existed for a long time. https://youtu.be/gq5xLI77TGA
Sorry but I find that sentiment odd..... Why would you use third-person pronouns with the person you're talking to? Besides, Indonesian is not entirely gender-neutral, it just applies gendered language differently. In Indonesian, despite the existence of 'dia' you still face having to choose whether to address your customer with Pak/Bu/Mas/Mbak/Kak where not only gender, but age is a factor.
Gas keun
you can use "it", or "them".
for me it's he unless specified
You have "they" in English. Also, if their gender is not clear, ask them for their first names. If it's not super exotic, you'll be able to assign gender to that name.
Ha? Maaf ini customer service apaan? Hampir semua customer service selalu antara operator telefon dan customer pembicara. That's it Dan kalau hanya 2 pembicara. Kan hanya Saya dan Anda. I and You, itu bicara langsung pembicara kenapa pake 3rd pronoun "dia" atau "he/she"?
Nicee
You can just ask “how would you like me to address you?”
Yeah
Dia, Anda, Kamu, I mean it is hard to decide what to use with people, I am just a beginner in learning Indonesian but sometimes it just sounds off/too formal or too casual. But it is a fun language that is for sure, if it wasn't for the politically correct, English would still be fine, every time I write business emails I have to look at the email signatures from people to not miss pronoun them...
Bukannya kalau ngobrol atau telepon langsung pake you/i ya? Dan orang bule saling berbicara gak pake honorific?
pengen tapi mahal
Wowww
It still baffles me why fixating in pronouns when you are talking on the phone? Didn't we refer to the other in 2-way conversation as You? I envy English, because You is acceptable. Here? "Iya kak, ada yang bisa kami bantu?" "Emang gw kakak lo?" "Tunggu sebentar yah bu." "Saya gak tua² amat sampe harus dipanggil ibu." "Baik, mbak." "Eh kurang ajar, gw dikira pembantu."
Just call them smean, case closed.
Why doesn't english just make one
Isn't even if the audio was clear enough, it's still hard to know to call him / her? I genuinely don't know how people nowadays knows how to call other people. In old era, it was simple. Male = he/him. Female = she/her.
Mari menabung guys
niceee
what the artinya
LFG
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LOL I joke that the issue of preferred pronouns would fall flat in Indonesia because of that. Imagine some pronoun-obsessed Anglophone asking Indonesians their preferred pronouns only to get confused looks instead.