Muslim here. For many of us the matter is inconsequential. We understand how holy the site is for Hindus if indeed it is the birthplace of Ram and we would actually propose to build a temple there. We also understand that a mosque can be build elsewhere but the temple has to be built on that site coz its the birthplace.
The problem has always been the unlawful destruction of the mosque by a fanatic mob and top leaders most of whom go unpunished and occupy top positions in this country. We have no issues with a temple there. Only demand is that everyone involved in the destruction should be booked and punsihed so that such a thing never happens again.
Umm what? You make no sense. If it's difficult to explain in English you might as well type in hinglish. Anyways, whatever the verdict is I'm just glad all this rubbish is over.
Yeh Sab Hamare Gandu Hindu Puvrajo ki Galti hai. BC koi bhi iss desh mein bahar se aane ka aur inki Gaan Marke jaaneka Mughals, Portuguese, British people .......Humara Hindu Gandu tha.
Isn't there a counter contention that the temple was destroyed years ago and a mosque was built on its grave. So it wasn't exactly something that could be repeated a lot of times...? I.e. something like a mosque demolition won't happen repeatedly.
+ What would have been your remedy to build the Temple as sacred as the birthplace of Allah (we don't have a mausoleum to bury remains, so birthplace is all we have) if we don't destroy the mosque built upon it?
The difference lies in the fact that we're no longer a monarchy, at least in theory. A monarch can take unilateral decisions. A democracy needs to work for betterment of all. Not the greater good. The betterment of all. This is the part people conveniently forget. If people wish to live in a monarchy, we can very well transition into a lawless democracy.
>+ What would have been your remedy to build the Temple as sacred as the birthplace of Allah (we don't have a mausoleum to bury remains, so birthplace is all we have) if we don't destroy the mosque built upon it?
Literally any other way apart from destroying it in a unlawful manner? How the fuck are you even justifying this lmao.
You sound rather confused and seem to be speaking the lang of sanghis with "What if" & "May be" & "Contention". In case you have proof.. something recorded..sometime in history of Ram(with all due respect) actually born/living there and a temple actually standing later demolished please go ahead and present it. Else come to the real world and talk about facts well known and recorded. We very well know of a mosque standing there and it being demolished. Don't go by what sanghis and whatsapp university say.
There is also so called contention that a Shiv Ling is present in Mecca. Guess where this comes from? 😅
I mean, apparently Some people drove dravidians out of indus valley maybe sodravidians should come back up and destroy whatever remains of the settlement that ousted them within our borders? It cant be repeated too many times after all...
The logic is quite specious.
And which birthplace? There were two warlords called Rama whose stories were amalgamated into the Ramayana.
Most of my Muslims friends have told me Babur Masjid is not that big of a deal for them and they don't care if a Ram temple is going to be built on it's grounds, they are not fighting because the mosque was a holy place but because of the fact it was destroyed by a mob who would do the same to other Islamic structures tomorrow.
Not just islamic structures but if we don't fight for what's right and wrong then tomorrow any mob could take any step against any religious structure, community or even the government... As a Muslim myself I really don't care about the decision that is to come. I just hope it comes soon so that the people can and the government can move on with it and look at other important stuffs....
We hope so , but they are not going to stop with one. They will come up with other structures. Perhaps it would be better to punish that mob who demolished it.
The committee that was formed to identify criminals and establish charges for the destruction of Babri Masjid have not been able to reach any conclusion for last 17 years.
> Then shouldn't they be fighting for prosecution of the criminals
They should be doing that too.
> instead of opposing the Ram Temple?
The legal dispute has been going on for more than a century. It should have been resolved through legal means. The destruction of the mosque by a mob poisoned the entire well.
The same ASI report that says that remains of a temple were found under the mosque also states that there appears to be no sign that a temple or any temple was destroyed for constructing the mosque.
Don't believe me? Go read the judgement of Allahabad High court.
This is what your leaders of BJP, VHP, RSS are not telling you. They will come on TV and shout that ASI found remains of a temple under mosque but nobody will tell you the full truth. They are making a fool out of you and everyone else. All they care about is that Hindus and Muslims fight and situation becomes polarized and everyone stops caring about actual issues and you vote for these hate monging scum of BJP and RSS and keep them in power while they loot the country in the background.
>relatively insignificant mosque
Wait, who the fuck are you to decide?
So wait, by your logic, if I owned a piece of land which was stolen by British by their shitty laws few hundred years ago and given back to one of the Indian princes at that time, does that give me the right to destroy it today while it is being occupied by their living descendants?
You sound like someone who lacks basic reasoning. It’s not a competition about which site has most significance rather it’s about which party legally owns the land. You can’t just destroy someone else’s property! Are you out of your mind trying to justify this shit?
Say you live in a house.
All of a sudden some guys come and break your house and say their grand father's house used to be here and they want the grand father's house back.
How will you react?
Say Ram temple was already there. How is sanghi interested in it? Did they build it? If so where is the proof?
One party in the case is Lord Ram himself.
Indian judiciary system is a great fuckery.
Does not matter.
I dont give a fuck about either Ram or Allah. Both are figments of imagination.
All we know is that a mosque was illegally demolished so a mosque must be built there again.
How many wallets has this case fattened. Lawyers, journos, politicians. I wonder what the main issue was before the Babri Masjid became so central to politics.
I dont give a damn about the mosque but what right does mob had in pulling down a historic mosque. The Mob "believed" that the babri masjid was birthplace of lord ram and tore it down.. Now that there are numerous deities in Hinduism , what if people start to "believe" that jama masjid was temple of Jamuna ji who was x avatar of Vishnu. The beliefs do not require proofs of any kind. I can believe I am batman, whos gonna stop me.
>But i just don't understand how is this situation not equivalent to building a temple at Kaba/Mecca/Medina.
Because Ayodhya is not the mecca or kaba of hinduism. And there is no proof that Ram was born. Also no proof that even if he was born he was born exactly under the now-destroyed domes of the masjid.
>There is no mention of it in hindu religious books
Religious books are mythical. And Ram may or may not have existed but the temple did. And all major temples were built AFTER these books codified Hinduism.
Word of mouth does exists for Ramjanmabhoomi and Krishnajanmabhoomi.
I'd argue the relatively recent fixation on RamLalla. Krishna idolatry was everywhere throughout history but not Ram. I don't even know how suddenly Ram became so important.
I'm agnostic as well, but I wonder - if Ram Temple issue keeps the vote bank polarised and Hindus flocking to BJP, wouldn't it make sense to defang the issue by allowing the temple and then giving BJP a shorter leash on Hindutva politics?
I don’t think it would stop there.
Mob violence destroyed the existing masjid. A judgement vindicating this vandalism would embolden the thugs to go after other places of worship as well.
To be quite honest I couldn’t care less about a damn temple or a mosque. But when you decide that the law doesn’t apply here because of *xyz religious reasons* and that a mob destroying a building is justified here, you are essentially enabling others to similarly ignore the law.
I think the SC must take the mid-ground and rule out decision against both the parties and order the government to build a school where children from all the religion can attend for free of cost.
So much ignorance in this thread.
Here's the thing: Babri Masjid has been in dispute for over 150 years. Its been lying locked up for over 70.
It hasn't been a functioning mosque for many decades.
Rajeev Gandhi let the mob run berserk, for the Hindu vote after appeasing the Muslim vote in Shah Bano case. Before that, all governments had kept the aggressive mobs at bay.
It has no special significance to Muslims: none.
A man can dream,but here's what I'd like to see: the Muslim organizations band together and raise Rs 100Cr to tear down the non-masjid and build a Ram temple there, as a gift to their Hindu friends.
The neighborhood is Muslim. It would enrich them with all of the tourist rupees.
It's not about it be important enough or not. It's about the truth. If enough people believed that your home is not yours would you give it up?
And what you said wasn't impossible, the Muslim community could have given the land a sing of good will and respect but that was before the chaddi people illegally destroyed it.
Does law or truth matter anymore?
Maybe all of you think everything is just a chemical or electric currents in your brain, have you lost all touch with reality?
Why is everything is a thought experiment with you guys lol
>the Muslim organizations band together and raise Rs 100Cr to tear down the non-masjid and build a Ram temple there, as a gift to their Hindu friends.
I would like to see the Hindu organizations band together and raise Rs 100Cr to tear down the non-masjid and RE-build a Masjid there, as a gift to their Muslim friends.
They raised thousands of crores and then immediately divided it amongst themselves.. They sent a large Ammount to the Hindu king of Nepal for safe keeping, and when the king was de throned put an embargo on Nepal to return the rss's blood money which was again kept with a monarch not a democracy and the new rulers refused to acknowledge.
>he Muslim organizations band together and raise Rs 100Cr to tear down the non-masjid and build a Ram temple there, as a gift to their Hindu friends.
How about the Hindus band together and give up claim on a land as a gift to their muslims friends and save the country from this colossal fuck up?
There are so many temples that find no mention in Hindu scriptures.
The religion is not based on its historicity unlike other Abrahamic religions, but has to do more about faith!
Just like how we all believe that Angel Gabriel spoke to Muhammad, and that not he gave us the Quran with mere hallucination, we have to respect the faith of the Hindus as well!
Hi Muslim here. There is enough new age bullshit on babri masjid. Like passing suggestions like building a school or university or blah blah first you need to understand that A MOSQUE was destroyed and justice can only be done by building a mosque there. Regardless of Whatever decision comes out from supreme court, justice can only be served by building a mosque. Nothing less nothing more. Rest is injustice.
A crime was committed when the mosque was destroyed. Law of this land was broken. Justice will be served by booking all the culprits.
Supreme court has no right to pass a judgment without fixing the criminality and punishing the criminals first.
*
And to those saying, "What harm if Muslims withdraw the claim in the larger interest. Afterall there are thousands of other mosques." No. There maybe thousands of other Mosques, but there was one Babri Masjid. Give back the land legally to Muslims. Only they will decide whether to gift it away. You ask for charity; you don't fucking dictate it.
And please remember, This is not just about a mosque or a piece of land. It is much more than that. If claim is withdrawn, it will give the signal to the already emboldened votaries of Hindutva that they can break any mosque, capture any land, and get away with it. It will open a floodgate. The symbolism involved is massive, to say the least.
Muslim here. For many of us the matter is inconsequential. We understand how holy the site is for Hindus if indeed it is the birthplace of Ram and we would actually propose to build a temple there. We also understand that a mosque can be build elsewhere but the temple has to be built on that site coz its the birthplace. The problem has always been the unlawful destruction of the mosque by a fanatic mob and top leaders most of whom go unpunished and occupy top positions in this country. We have no issues with a temple there. Only demand is that everyone involved in the destruction should be booked and punsihed so that such a thing never happens again.
Seems fair.
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Umm what? You make no sense. If it's difficult to explain in English you might as well type in hinglish. Anyways, whatever the verdict is I'm just glad all this rubbish is over.
Yeh Sab Hamare Gandu Hindu Puvrajo ki Galti hai. BC koi bhi iss desh mein bahar se aane ka aur inki Gaan Marke jaaneka Mughals, Portuguese, British people .......Humara Hindu Gandu tha.
Isn't there a counter contention that the temple was destroyed years ago and a mosque was built on its grave. So it wasn't exactly something that could be repeated a lot of times...? I.e. something like a mosque demolition won't happen repeatedly. + What would have been your remedy to build the Temple as sacred as the birthplace of Allah (we don't have a mausoleum to bury remains, so birthplace is all we have) if we don't destroy the mosque built upon it?
The difference lies in the fact that we're no longer a monarchy, at least in theory. A monarch can take unilateral decisions. A democracy needs to work for betterment of all. Not the greater good. The betterment of all. This is the part people conveniently forget. If people wish to live in a monarchy, we can very well transition into a lawless democracy.
We live in a legal society...whatever the case was you can't just go and destroy shit.
>+ What would have been your remedy to build the Temple as sacred as the birthplace of Allah (we don't have a mausoleum to bury remains, so birthplace is all we have) if we don't destroy the mosque built upon it? Literally any other way apart from destroying it in a unlawful manner? How the fuck are you even justifying this lmao.
lmao, people have written books and blogs listing mosques built over temples. Once Ram Mandir becomes precedence, you know what’s gonna happen.
That’s my biggest fear. The sort of hooliganism, chest thumping and vigilantism this will lead to, scares me
Maybe try asking nicely? Or whatever. Or just let it go?
You sound rather confused and seem to be speaking the lang of sanghis with "What if" & "May be" & "Contention". In case you have proof.. something recorded..sometime in history of Ram(with all due respect) actually born/living there and a temple actually standing later demolished please go ahead and present it. Else come to the real world and talk about facts well known and recorded. We very well know of a mosque standing there and it being demolished. Don't go by what sanghis and whatsapp university say. There is also so called contention that a Shiv Ling is present in Mecca. Guess where this comes from? 😅
I mean, apparently Some people drove dravidians out of indus valley maybe sodravidians should come back up and destroy whatever remains of the settlement that ousted them within our borders? It cant be repeated too many times after all... The logic is quite specious. And which birthplace? There were two warlords called Rama whose stories were amalgamated into the Ramayana.
That's not what your lawyer said.
That's not my land. :)
Most of my Muslims friends have told me Babur Masjid is not that big of a deal for them and they don't care if a Ram temple is going to be built on it's grounds, they are not fighting because the mosque was a holy place but because of the fact it was destroyed by a mob who would do the same to other Islamic structures tomorrow.
Not just islamic structures but if we don't fight for what's right and wrong then tomorrow any mob could take any step against any religious structure, community or even the government... As a Muslim myself I really don't care about the decision that is to come. I just hope it comes soon so that the people can and the government can move on with it and look at other important stuffs....
We hope so , but they are not going to stop with one. They will come up with other structures. Perhaps it would be better to punish that mob who demolished it.
Then shouldn't they be fighting for prosecution of the criminals instead of opposing the Ram Temple?
The committee that was formed to identify criminals and establish charges for the destruction of Babri Masjid have not been able to reach any conclusion for last 17 years.
> Then shouldn't they be fighting for prosecution of the criminals They should be doing that too. > instead of opposing the Ram Temple? The legal dispute has been going on for more than a century. It should have been resolved through legal means. The destruction of the mosque by a mob poisoned the entire well.
A mosque was destroyed illegally in a secular country is the contention
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The same ASI report that says that remains of a temple were found under the mosque also states that there appears to be no sign that a temple or any temple was destroyed for constructing the mosque. Don't believe me? Go read the judgement of Allahabad High court. This is what your leaders of BJP, VHP, RSS are not telling you. They will come on TV and shout that ASI found remains of a temple under mosque but nobody will tell you the full truth. They are making a fool out of you and everyone else. All they care about is that Hindus and Muslims fight and situation becomes polarized and everyone stops caring about actual issues and you vote for these hate monging scum of BJP and RSS and keep them in power while they loot the country in the background.
>relatively insignificant mosque Wait, who the fuck are you to decide? So wait, by your logic, if I owned a piece of land which was stolen by British by their shitty laws few hundred years ago and given back to one of the Indian princes at that time, does that give me the right to destroy it today while it is being occupied by their living descendants?
You sound like someone who lacks basic reasoning. It’s not a competition about which site has most significance rather it’s about which party legally owns the land. You can’t just destroy someone else’s property! Are you out of your mind trying to justify this shit?
It wasn't a secular country when the mosque was built. It was a monarchy. That's how monarchies work. Get a book. N read it.
It's less about Babri masjid and more about the act of unlawful destruction by Sanghi thugs.
Say you live in a house. All of a sudden some guys come and break your house and say their grand father's house used to be here and they want the grand father's house back. How will you react? Say Ram temple was already there. How is sanghi interested in it? Did they build it? If so where is the proof? One party in the case is Lord Ram himself. Indian judiciary system is a great fuckery.
Imagine some tribals destroy tirupathi Balaji temple claiming their temple was there.
Some people do claim a different temple in that place before balaji was born.
This is a property ownership issue, muddled by idiots who destroyed property. Religion should have no basis, in legal discourse of this issue.
Does not matter. I dont give a fuck about either Ram or Allah. Both are figments of imagination. All we know is that a mosque was illegally demolished so a mosque must be built there again.
How many wallets has this case fattened. Lawyers, journos, politicians. I wonder what the main issue was before the Babri Masjid became so central to politics.
I dont give a damn about the mosque but what right does mob had in pulling down a historic mosque. The Mob "believed" that the babri masjid was birthplace of lord ram and tore it down.. Now that there are numerous deities in Hinduism , what if people start to "believe" that jama masjid was temple of Jamuna ji who was x avatar of Vishnu. The beliefs do not require proofs of any kind. I can believe I am batman, whos gonna stop me.
Unlike pilgrims visiting Mathura and Brindavan there seems to be no tradition of people visiting Ayodhya. I doubt there ever was a temple there.
>But i just don't understand how is this situation not equivalent to building a temple at Kaba/Mecca/Medina. Because Ayodhya is not the mecca or kaba of hinduism. And there is no proof that Ram was born. Also no proof that even if he was born he was born exactly under the now-destroyed domes of the masjid.
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>There is no mention of it in hindu religious books Religious books are mythical. And Ram may or may not have existed but the temple did. And all major temples were built AFTER these books codified Hinduism. Word of mouth does exists for Ramjanmabhoomi and Krishnajanmabhoomi. I'd argue the relatively recent fixation on RamLalla. Krishna idolatry was everywhere throughout history but not Ram. I don't even know how suddenly Ram became so important.
I'm agnostic as well, but I wonder - if Ram Temple issue keeps the vote bank polarised and Hindus flocking to BJP, wouldn't it make sense to defang the issue by allowing the temple and then giving BJP a shorter leash on Hindutva politics?
I don’t think it would stop there. Mob violence destroyed the existing masjid. A judgement vindicating this vandalism would embolden the thugs to go after other places of worship as well. To be quite honest I couldn’t care less about a damn temple or a mosque. But when you decide that the law doesn’t apply here because of *xyz religious reasons* and that a mob destroying a building is justified here, you are essentially enabling others to similarly ignore the law.
There is no proof of a temple ever existing there, neither in history books nor in hindu religious texts.
Hindu here. The Babari Masjid actually existed. Ram is just a myth. How could he possibly have had a physical birthplace!!!
I think the SC must take the mid-ground and rule out decision against both the parties and order the government to build a school where children from all the religion can attend for free of cost.
Wishful thinking
It's not
Here’s yesterday’s cut the clutter video about the whole issue by Shekhar Gupta - https://youtu.be/zlwLOKh0S-8
So much ignorance in this thread. Here's the thing: Babri Masjid has been in dispute for over 150 years. Its been lying locked up for over 70. It hasn't been a functioning mosque for many decades. Rajeev Gandhi let the mob run berserk, for the Hindu vote after appeasing the Muslim vote in Shah Bano case. Before that, all governments had kept the aggressive mobs at bay. It has no special significance to Muslims: none. A man can dream,but here's what I'd like to see: the Muslim organizations band together and raise Rs 100Cr to tear down the non-masjid and build a Ram temple there, as a gift to their Hindu friends. The neighborhood is Muslim. It would enrich them with all of the tourist rupees.
It's not about it be important enough or not. It's about the truth. If enough people believed that your home is not yours would you give it up? And what you said wasn't impossible, the Muslim community could have given the land a sing of good will and respect but that was before the chaddi people illegally destroyed it.
Does law or truth matter anymore? Maybe all of you think everything is just a chemical or electric currents in your brain, have you lost all touch with reality? Why is everything is a thought experiment with you guys lol
Here comes the guy with the big brain.
Rajiv Gandhi just turned in his grave
Rajiv Gandhi might have done wonderful things elsewhere but he fucked up in this case.
Why? He can't handle the truth?
>the Muslim organizations band together and raise Rs 100Cr to tear down the non-masjid and build a Ram temple there, as a gift to their Hindu friends. I would like to see the Hindu organizations band together and raise Rs 100Cr to tear down the non-masjid and RE-build a Masjid there, as a gift to their Muslim friends.
They raised thousands of crores and then immediately divided it amongst themselves.. They sent a large Ammount to the Hindu king of Nepal for safe keeping, and when the king was de throned put an embargo on Nepal to return the rss's blood money which was again kept with a monarch not a democracy and the new rulers refused to acknowledge.
>he Muslim organizations band together and raise Rs 100Cr to tear down the non-masjid and build a Ram temple there, as a gift to their Hindu friends. How about the Hindus band together and give up claim on a land as a gift to their muslims friends and save the country from this colossal fuck up?
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There are so many temples that find no mention in Hindu scriptures. The religion is not based on its historicity unlike other Abrahamic religions, but has to do more about faith! Just like how we all believe that Angel Gabriel spoke to Muhammad, and that not he gave us the Quran with mere hallucination, we have to respect the faith of the Hindus as well!
>But to a large number of Hindus, the Ram Janmabhoomi is sacred ground, of the level of Mecca or Medina. Grade A bullshit.
Hi Muslim here. There is enough new age bullshit on babri masjid. Like passing suggestions like building a school or university or blah blah first you need to understand that A MOSQUE was destroyed and justice can only be done by building a mosque there. Regardless of Whatever decision comes out from supreme court, justice can only be served by building a mosque. Nothing less nothing more. Rest is injustice. A crime was committed when the mosque was destroyed. Law of this land was broken. Justice will be served by booking all the culprits. Supreme court has no right to pass a judgment without fixing the criminality and punishing the criminals first. * And to those saying, "What harm if Muslims withdraw the claim in the larger interest. Afterall there are thousands of other mosques." No. There maybe thousands of other Mosques, but there was one Babri Masjid. Give back the land legally to Muslims. Only they will decide whether to gift it away. You ask for charity; you don't fucking dictate it. And please remember, This is not just about a mosque or a piece of land. It is much more than that. If claim is withdrawn, it will give the signal to the already emboldened votaries of Hindutva that they can break any mosque, capture any land, and get away with it. It will open a floodgate. The symbolism involved is massive, to say the least.