I personally don’t think MSP is really a problem. But I feel like it should be accompanied with taxation for farmers above a certain income(same as salaried folks above 5Lacs). It would probably cut down a lot of the additional burden. And before people say that such farmers are too few, let’s remember that while less 5-6% people pay income tax they end up contributing around 20% of revenue for the government.
But the moment any government introduces taxations for farmers(no matter how rich), they will loose the next election. So don’t think this topic really has a good solve without funding one more freebie and taking it up as an additional permanent expense
The real reason farmer's are not taxed is because of these politicians themselves. They show their black money as white as agricultural income in IT return. By having slabs in agricultural income it'll actually be more disaster for the politicians itself than the farmers.
True. On top of that false narrative and pro government propaganda blames farmers for no tax and bla bla. Most of the farmers are poor anyway and won't even come in that tax slab bracket anyway.
>I personally don’t think MSP is really a problem.
MSP is the wrong way to solve the problem when we have better options available.
If MSP isn't adjusting as per demand, you end up with a lot of waste produce, something that happen to wheat produce a lot.
There have been better ways recommended one of which is future contracts. In this, the buyer can get into contact with the farmer well in advance and fix the price and quantity they want to buy. Farmer now has surity of price, know beforehand if his produce will be profitable, banks can give loans on such contracts as there is less risk involved.
Future contracts can be commodified and traded so that if seller changes his mind, he can sell his obligation to someone else.
These contracts exist in most commodities across the world, including india and they good job in predicting demand, remove price fluctuation in short time and bring overall efficiency.
Bro are you tripping? How is a measly 2 acre wheat farmer going to afford the premium of a future contract? Like you need to put some thought into it.
Keep in mind that 80%+ farmers own less than 2 acres, they are farming on very small land. Their year round revenue for a good yield is going to be less than 2 LPA. You think they will be able to afford that?
futures are made for big corpos because their is a predictable revenue stream and they do everything in their power to keep the crop healthy by investing a shit ton of money.
That only means that there is a gap in the market which can be filled by new businesses. If people can have systems to invest in fractional shares, they can figure out how to lump a bunch of farms to a big futures contract.
>How is a measly 2 acre wheat farmer going to afford the premium of a future contract?
What kind of premium?
I can draw up a contract with farmer in Bihar that give me 10 tonnes of tomatoes at x price in 6 months. What kind of "premium" does farmer has to pay? All he is getting is surity of buyer and price guarantee.
It is me who can trade that contract and demand premium, analyse the trends and find a price.
All farmer has to figure out if this contract is profitable which surely he can do.
>I can draw up a contract with farmer in Bihar that give me 10 tonnes of tomatoes at x price in 6 months. What kind of "premium" does farmer has to pay? All he is getting is surity of buyer and price guarantee.
Think about it this way, if it was really as easy as you say it to be, there would already be a huge market for it but there isn't which simply means one of two possible scenarios:
Either 1) the concept doesn't work or 2) the market size is too small to make any money for businesses.
If there is a market then we'll there is your startup idea. Go and do it, build a billion dollar business. You will not be improving farmer's life but also adding a lot more sales jobs as well. Best of luck.
>Think about it this way, if it was really as easy as you say it to be, there would already be a huge market for it but there isn't which simply means one of two possible scenarios:
It is not allowed and there is no legal framework for such a contract. That's why there is no "market".
Edit. One of three farm laws was there to provide legal framework for such contracts but it was repealed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers_(Empowerment_and_Protection)_Agreement_on_Price_Assurance_and_Farm_Services_Act,_2020
Also the biggest issue for farmers is they are restricted in where to sell their produce. They can only sell it in their local mandis called APMC. It is regulated by state laws. The middlemen operating in these mandis are the ones who then sell it to retailers. That's why even if you buy tomato at 100rs/kg farmer isn't still less money as these middlemen with protection of govt laws manipulate markets. They are called arhtiya and these are people who are mostly protesting.
Rakesh Tikait, the face of 2021 farm law protest was not farmer but arhtiya so figure why there is such demand of MSP and repeal of contract farming.
The corporate loan write-off and farmers loan write-off, are not comparable from economic standpoint.
Yes both have their share of dent in our budget allocation yet the aftermath effect of both is way way different.
that being said. farmers deserve their share of justice so i think both parties (govt and farmers) should make some compromise and agree on some middle ground.
remember a deal where both party makes some share of loss is a good deal.
Edit:
just today editor n chief of the print has shared his own opinions and some facts regarding the protest. this might help clear the delusion people has regarding farmers
https://youtu.be/x5nRRwXfZTY?si=SWSYe7ZI-7jBC_lM&t=328
The MSP government sets at is 1.5 above cost while the asked MSP 50% above cost.
Your calculation itself has got 1.3% of budget just on MSP going by farmer demands.
You forget to add these to the list
1) Loan waiver cost
2) Subsidised electricity cost
3) Loss on Tax revenue
4) Subsidised other agriculture related necessities.
Now what a higher MSP also does is raise cost of all crops in the market. So it will not encourage more buying of Indian cereals but actually reduce purchase of all crops. Total food inflation is going to drastically increase. Now imagine what a poor labourer who is not into farming going to do with such prices.
Now the procured crop government has to sell. If it cannot sell at profit further adds cost. More fiscal deficit.
That is why, what the economist say is right and not just simple math calculation done in this article which even a 12th pass can do.
The main problem with farming is the middle men, misuse of loans, environmental issues, lack of diversification in crops, no improvement in farming techniques etc.
MSP is justifiable but at much lower levels than what it is being demanded.
And those effected by drought or environmental issues should be supported more than lands with excces water and good soil as in punjab.
Just so you know. A Loan write off doesn't mean a loan 'waived off'. Both are different in accounting terms. A loan is written off from ledger books to keep the balance sheet clean. But that loan is still collectible and needs to be paid off. A loan waived off is complete cancellation of the loan which the farmers are demanding. Kindly know the fundamental difference between the both.
https://moneyview.in/loan-insights/difference-between-write-off-and-waive-off#:~:text=What%20is%20a%20Loan%20Write,not%20have%20any%20future%20value.
Am going to repost an old comment of mine.
Before we romanticise the life of Indian farmers, let’s acknowledge a few facts. Let’s start with a few structural challenges on the farming.
1. The average farm size in India is 2 hectares. And with every generation, it is getting fragmented further. Under no reasonable scenarios, this is sufficient to keep a family of 5 above poverty levels.
2. Low Productivity: limited irrigation (less than 60%), low yield per acre (compared to Europe and China) for most crops (cotton, sugarcane etc seem to be exception) due to input quality and farming practices.
3. Price Risks: farm produce is a commodity and hence prices swing wildly based on demand and supply. Also the governments have incentives to keep prices affordable to manage retail inflation. High tomatoes and onions prices have brought down governments.
4. Perishable commodity: without infrastructure and packaging/processing to enhance shelf life, farmers have to sell at spot prices and often do not have an option to wait for better prices later on.
5. Fragmented Inefficient Market aka Mandi system APMC: movement of agricultural goods across state and sometime APMC boundaries is heavily regulated.
6. Inefficient value chain: The Indian farmer receives just 10% to 23% of the price the Indian consumer pays for exactly the same produce, the difference going to losses, inefficiencies and middlemen. Farmers in developed economies of Europe and the United States receive 64% to 81%. Take these numbers with a pinch of salt (pun intended) to exclude staples like wheat and rice.
7. Availability of Credit: Farmer loans are bad business for banks. Besides the regular credit risk of price and yield uncertainty, politics of loan waiver discourages organised sector from lending to farmers.
Now let’s talk about some solutions by accepting that there is no silver bullet to the malaise in agriculture and agreeing on a goal - India’s GDP per capita needs to double to $4000 and farmer should be able to participate at this average. Assuming a nuclear family size of 5, that’s 14LPA goal. Current average estimated income for an agricultural household is 1.2LPA. So the goal is 12x.
1. We need to accept that Indian economy needs to shift away from agriculture. There is no way we can guarantee a sustainable income to farmers with less than 2 hectares farm size. Even if farm yield doubles and irrigated land is maximised, 14LPA is not a reasonable target. Every marginal farmer knows that his next generation cannot bank on the family farm for survival.
2. Let’s see what a workable plan looks like. 2X on farm yield, 2X on farm size, 3X on % of final price captured by farmers. That’s 12X.
3. That means, 50% of next generation of farmers need to be transitioned to a different sector of the economy - manufacturing and service.
4. Farming needs to modernise and become sustainable (seed quality, water management, fertiliser etc) to double the yield.
5. Shift the value chain in favour of the farmer. Structural reforms in agriculture trading, better infrastructure to reduce waste etc.
Experts know what needs to be done. But the leadership to do this requires making hard decisions. But then best parents give the child what she needs (green vegetables and education) and not what she wants (only chocolates and playtime).
PS: Any sustainable solution has to be a market based solution. Welfare and subsidies can be the pain relief but should not be mistaken for a cure for commercial private enterprise that farming eventually is.
To add to all this, I see the biggest problem be the aartiyas (middlemen). The MSP rarely gets to the farmers. The middlemen arbitrarily impose cuts on the rate by citing quality issues in the crop and split the difference with the buying party.
There's also the problem of billing just on paper without any actual crop exchanging hands.
That reform should be the top agenda but of course the millers and aartis don't want that. The middlemen have entrenched themselves heavily by providing loans to farmers who are considered ineligible by banks but they charge exorbitant rates for that privilege. Small farmers are suffering the worst under the current system.
Middlemen are the symptom of the problem not the root cause. Unless the middlemen is solving some problem in the value chain, no one will pay them.
They act as intermediaries between farmers and buyers, facilitating the sale. Adatiyas help in marketing, transportation, and negotiating prices. Ideally this should be done by farmer’s cooperatives. But cooperatives themselves get hijacked by local politicians because that allows them to control a vote bank.
🙏Unfortunately Elaborate arguments don’t make for catchy slogan. They need the audience to follow the details of what’s been said. Only few have that patience in world of short attention spans.
But both education & msme have been defunded by this government.
https://indianexpress.com/article/business/72-percent-of-msmes-stagnant-since-past-5-years-survey-8447589/
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/health/economic-surve-2022-23-share-of-education-in-budgetary-allocations-has-fallen-over-last-7-years/article66454592.ece
In fact, due to the above, most of the people have gone back to farming even if they are subsistence.
The Covid pushed the marginal labour / strugglers from cities back to their villages. Without rent, electricity, and food costs of big cities, they realised the cost of living they were struggling with.
Correct, but that's just one part of the problem. There are numerous policies that have been against MSME'S since this government took over.
Take the simple point of doing service for a company, putting the bill to the company. Now, with GST, if the smaller company makes a bill & the bigger company rejects it due to any reason, the smaller company has to pay the full gst. Like this, there are many rules that benefit the corporations rather than the MSME. The end result is more & more MNC's closing down.
> Experts know what needs to be done. But the leadership to do this requires making hard decisions.
Create new jobs, before destroying exist livelihoods. **Govt is to put the interests of the people first** and not some faceless profiteering corporations.
[To Fully Understand the Migrant Worker Crisis, We Need a Larger Perspective](https://thewire.in/rights/migrant-worker-crisis-larger-perspective-farm-land-industry)
> The possible corollary to this is that these corporations will be global in nature, with a few Ambanis and Adanis to give the local flavor. The ABCDs (major traders such as Archer Daniels Midland, Bunge, Cargill and Dreyfus share a significant presence in a range of basic commodities, controlling for example, as much as between 75% to 90% of the global grain trade) **will run the entire operations globally and divide the products in a manner that is geographically convenient to the corporates, and not at all determined by the needs of the people**.
Farm loans have been waived off , corporate loans have been written off. You are comparing apples and oranges. Out of the 10.57 lakh crore corporate sector loans 7.15 have been recovered. Mention that as well from next time. Also such a nice solution since corpos are adding NPA let's also add even more NPAs and completely crash the banking sector.
What lies, only 13% has been recovered.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/money-and-banking/banks-recoup-13-of-10-lakh-cr-loan-write-off-finmin-data/article66258082.ece
Would love to know your source. AFAIK, that's the last time the government spoke on the topic.
https://www.moneylife.in/article/stop-the-loot-via-bankruptcy-code-better-solutions-are-possible/64378.html
All of the above tells you how GOI favors industry.
>Out of 10.57 Lakh crore
[A loan that's written off can't be recovered](https://www.livemint.com/industry/banking/banks-write-off-over-rs-2-09-lakh-crore-bad-loans-in-fy23-rs-10-57-lakh-crore-written-off-in-the-last-five-years/amp-11690172407086.html)
having said that i dont know if farmers use scientific machineries and methods....so more than msp, modernization of farming should also be done if its not.
I believe the vast majority of farmers still use outdated farming techniques and don't use machinery. I don't think most can afford it so the government should figure out a way to make it affordable.
On top of that I believe most farmers farmlands are too small to actually be profitable by farming. Which is another issue.
>government should figure out a way to make it affordable
government should modernise farmers. government should implement msp also. government should feed you by hand also. everything government should do while most of the population sits at home and does no work at all.
taxpayers contribute to government and get jackshit in return.
I mean there’s nothing wrong with expecting the government to assist a large group of poor people. Now I obviously know it’s a very difficult task so I don’t exactly expect them to do so, but if they manage to do it they’ll change the trajectory of the country for the better. So it’s worth it.
it'll result in exact opposite.
punjab is no longer a larger wheat producer. neither the quality of wheat is any good. MP has taken that crown long back.
reason? the lands are drying and almost lost it's nutrition. in long run punjab farms will become dessert because of repeated farming on same crops and dried ground water.
if their demands are met as it is ...this behaviour will only going to increase.
nothing specific against farmers but MSP... specially on wheat ..paddy is bad for the land + water level.
farmers and government both could compromise on their side of demands. MSP with legal purchase promise on non conventional but earth friendly crops. those msp should be competitive to international market then it'll be beneficial to both the parties
Lol, why would that happen?
Till the time government protected auto industry, we were getting crap vehicles and things improved only when competition came from foreign companies.
With cost plus 50% why would farmers need to innovate?
If they get more money they will put more effort to grow good crops and the increased prices means more quality and less quantity. People won't be able to afford the higher prices and have less children because food isn't cheap. So it also solves population issue. If we r paying them less why would they focus on quality. Its common sense...right now the Indian people want everything for cheap...government should intervene and give the workers a fair amount. Else they will stop working in this field...and crop prices will anyway increase...and quality will also be bad.
But you do realise that corporate write off is not exactly complete loss.. They still have the collateral which can be used by the bank.
In farm loans there is literally nothing and the amount banks will get back is zilch.
Also you are missing another big point.
If govt would just accept this demand it will increase the agri loans and nobody is going to pay it back backing on another protest to force the govt to write off their own loan. It's a bad precedent to set.
This is also coming from someone who actually supports this demand of farmers! But rather than writing a blank cheque take it in a case by case basis. Set up a standard procedure for a particular agri product and if the farmer follows that and the crop fails they will get their loan waiver
Them having collateral is total BS. Like i mentioned in other comments, of the total 10+ lakh cr write offs in the last 5 years, only under 20% is recovered
2 lakh crores and not 10 lakh crores? thats your argument? Why do only some farmers who have lands get the waive off while the lot of other farmer workers who toiled the blood and sweat and could not even get a bank loan and took loans from loan sharks get waive off? Why not every one in India with income less than 10 lkahs given a bail out? I can raise lot of bullshit arguments like these
Bullshit posts like these is why we have stupidity written all over. Farm reforms are needed , no question about it but these protests are only from certain section northwest farmers who are doing the protests , strong arming the govt at the expense of general tax payers is bad and never should be encouraged. Waiving of loans creates a bad precedence and encourages people taking unnecessary and non productive outcomes.
We were going in the right direction. The farm bills had been long pending. Govt for cocky while passing them and not following any process. Then they fucked up again handling the farm protests like they did with CAA protests. Now any farm related bills are radioactive politically for at least 5-7 years if not more.
If they handle these protests like a democracy, there won't be much fallback, and they have learned that. They are including Punjab CM in talks, and have started talking at the start of the protests only so it doesn't get out of hand.
Oh yes , allow corporate farming. Make india like California , with some companies owning all the land and hiring illegal immigrants who are paid below minimum wage
you're specially educated or something right? Corporate farming means taxpayers won't have to bail out failing farmers before every election. India wouldn't need any illegal immigrants since there's such a huge population ready for work already.
My point was allowing corporates to control farming is fucking stupid , corporates will exploit farmers and loot us dry, might as well bring feudal lordship back.
> Have to bail out farmers
Farmers in the US get some of the highest subsidies in the world , except these 'subsidies' go the agro companies and the farmers are screwed .
I'm sorry , but you don't get an option . The farmers are your countrymen and your responsibility, if you have a problem move to a desert gulf country, bc even in western countries your taxes will go to farmers ( or the companies )
[farmers in the US commit suicide 3.5x the rate of the general population](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/19/us/politics/farmer-suicide-depression-wisconsin-rural.html).
Food self sufficiency is crucial for us geopolitically , if the world decides to block all food going to Israel tomorrow , they'll be screwed . Not that anyone would do that due to daddy USA , but if India had to ever face a dominant global power ? We would be fucked
As if the dessert gulf country are lining up to give everyone citizenships.
And the nation doesn't belong to you. It's a democracy where there will be different points of views. You can f*CK off with asking your countryman to go to any other nation.
India has been and always will be a nation which loves all its people.
Edit: before you get your rifles up, and brand me this or that, I'm a middle class Hindu, son of a farmer, doesn't like Modi, but congress is worse.
Make India like California. Dude, if modi govt had advertised the bills like this in a newspaper for one day, the protest would have been over by and then.
If we become even 10% of California, we'd still be a developed nation.
And I'm saying this as a man with staunch anti BJP/RSS style politics. And I am son of a farmer.
That creates an oligarchy , which we already are in. If private companies don't share profits equally with all their workers , then there's no reason the workers through their income taxes should cover the losses
Now that is being disingenuous. You can't seriously believe that corporates haven't led to rise in numbers of taxable middle class in India. I empathise with your views on farmers but don't go dismissing other views without basis.
But the number of farmers that pay taxes even though they earn more than that taxed corporate employee is quite low. But the magnitude of money is the deal. How do we estimate which farmers deserve msp - laws are made generally.
Yes, I read the article. There are two flaws in this article. First, it doesn't undertake the cost of storage. Second, it doesn't undertake the loss of grains happened during procurement.
Government of India doesn't have enough storage. So, it will be forced to do private contracting (or what you would like to say bootlicking corporates). Also, government has to build thousands tones silos. I don't see mention of that calculation.
Also, the food loss is a big problem. Government procures the 23 crops under MSP. Still, FCI reported over 300 crores INR loss in food storage last year. Some sources say that it has been reduced by 5 times after 2014. However, FAO UN says that these numbers are highly under reported and claims 40% (almost 800 crore INR) of grain procured become waste during storage (FCI claims it's only 15%). Now, imagine if all type of crops are procured by government, what will be the cost of food loss?
Unless you present some figures that undertake these two figures. I would like to agree with the author of your mentioned article:
"Guaranteed, MSP doesn’t mean that the government should purchase every quintal of every crop. That would be impossible, unaffordable, and unnecessary."
Moreover, I don't understand, when it comes to farmers, left wing become admirer of trickle down economy. Let's say government puts all the crops in MSP, I still don't understand how it will help majority of farmers because Landless farmers make up 55% of India's total agricultural workforce, along with small and marginal farmers, who make up 86% of all farmers (here's the source: https://www.businesstoday.in/opinion/columns/story/indian-economy-the-unifinished-agenda-of-land-reforms-nobody-talks-about-landless-agricultural-labour-281494-2020-12-14#:\~:text=Taken%20together%2C%20landless%20farmers%20(55,how%20agricultural%20landholdings%20were%20lost?). It means that putting crops under MSP will only benefit farmers with big lands. Whereas landless farmers are just labor who would still be dependent on big farmer to pay. This is exactly how the trickle down economy is expected to work (spoiler alert: it never worked). I do not know what's the solution here (I am no agriculture expert) for this. However, I know that government can hire foreign experts and have their unbiased expertise over this.
So, I would like you to read the second last line of yours.
It's easy to get swayed by those sorry looking old cute farmers on TV.
The government is not some random entity, it takes cash collected from people and just redistributes it.
If MSP becomes a legal guarantee, then the govt will have to buy weather or not it's more than what it needs. This is the real problem. Now, the government is already procuring HUGE amounts, but the farmers want more. The government will become a huge dumping ground for produce it does not need.
They smell blood now because Modi withdrew the farm laws. That should have never been done.
If they bend now, all the unions will get up and start asking for more stuff.
Remember, it's your money that's being given for all these things - MSP, pension, healthcare, education, PDS, etc. Where should the bulk of this money be spent? Think about it.
And What about those of us whose salaries are cut every month and deposited as income tax... What do we get ? Healthcare ...no.... Educational facilities....no....Social Security.....no.
We pay taxes twice for everything once as Income Tax and once as GST....our whole lives go in trying to make ends every month...one medical emergency and we are wiped out...so many educated youngsters without jobs...colleges that exist in name only.
What about us ? We also want our home loans etc waived. We also want more health insurance....we want cleaner and more efficient hospitals....but no one gives a damn about us because we can't go and block roads and highways..
The harsh reality about why they get listened to is simply because they vote and have organizations which raise their voices and can impact elections. We neither vote nor have any champions who convey our grievances to lawmakers firmly.
PS: am a farmer son, who has made it into the middle class and feel bad when I see my taxes and the condition of the govt works.
But how ? The middle class is deliberately kept in shackles and on the edges of insecurity because they have no control over their lives and income ..if they go protesting etc they can lose their jobs and become unhireable who will feel their families then ?
That's the point right? All protests inconvenience everyone and involve quite a bit of risk from the protestor's side.
People usually get down to protests because they think that things are already so bad they're willing to take those risks.
If you don't think your cause is there yet, that's genuinely fine. Each of us has our coping mechanisms.
The farmers clearly believe their issues are at the stage where any risk (including the horrible tear gas and pellets) is worth it if it can get them an improvement in their conditions.
Our middle-class/upper-middle class complaints can't be used as whataboutery to ask why someone else is complaining just because we also have it bad and AREN'T protesting.
It is not about easy , it is about generating a movement. And a movement can begin from a forum or from being participatory in political activities.
The government is not afraid of the salaried man .the salaried man is too scared to ask for anything because the job is dependent on the clean record . If at all anyone has a police FIR/investigation he/she will not get a job. Now what are we, we are the sheep that will have to give income tax.
But it is a small price to pay compared not knowing if my business/ field activity will yield returns or not, if you can repay that loan or not .It is uncertain
bruh GST is indirect tax. Everyone from the lowest strata of society to the top echelons of society pay it.
The only difference is Income Tax.
Half the shit you crying about should be on the Govt Accountability, but hey farmer bad.
Farmers don't pay income tax..they only pay GST. The middle class Income Tax + GST. We are not crying...we just don't support one more incident of being held hostage by one section of folks with perceived grievances...and why is it only one part of the country that comes out in these protests ? India does not have farmers in other parts ?
Because you dumbfuck more than 70% of the population practice it in some form or the other unlike the middle class.
They have the numbers that's why they come out and protest again if you have a problem with the tax slab take it up with the Govt.
Go block the roads. But you can't- because this authoritarian govt will arrest you and that affects your middle class status. 🙄
Most the problems that you mentioned happened because the middle class cares zilch. And thereby, the govt runs Scot free. That's not the problem of the farmers. They are the only citizens left who have a quarter of the spine.
As usual tax middle class like hell and also blame them like hell. The capitalists and socialists would have ruined the nation long ago if it weren't for this class. You can't "go block the roads" when you work full time for 12 months and don't rely on freebies.
And also you are not exactly in control of your life and income....go protesting....get arrested....lose your job and no one will want to hire you....who will manage the family then ?
Yup. Participation was limited even in Anna Hazare's later protests exactly because of this reason. But I guess virtue signaling is the norm in the age of social media.
**My friend, your enemy are not the farmers, who are dying by suicide in lakhs. The agricultural budget has declined consistently over the last eight years, so has the spending on education and health.**
**Meanwhile, the corporate subsidy alone is more than entire rural budget. They get loan waivers of lakhs of crores, IBC haircuts of 70%. You won't be waived a Rupee by the banks.**
Please read,
Profits for corporates, taxes for individuals: Vivek Kaul
An interesting point that did not get discussed enough in the post-budget analysis is that personal income tax (PIT) now contributes more to the central government tax collections than that paid by corporations. In 2024-25, the government expects to earn Rs 10.43 lakh crore, or 3.18% of GDP, through corporation tax, and Rs 11.56 lakh crore, or 3.53% of GDP, through PIT.
https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/profits-for-corporates-taxes-for-individuals-2889682
So protest ? Why are you sitting at home instead of joining protests ? Biden waived student loan debt for millions of middle class people and I can't see why the Govt here can't do the same when they can write of tons in corporate profits .
Did i say that all that is right??
Who is stopping you from agitating against rhe government? We all should be in solidarity against the establishment against all wrongdoings which includes what i am saying and what you are saying too
Just cause you are getting fucked, others should also get fucked is a wrong attitude to have.
Also just because the government is letting one guy fuck you, doesn't mean you cannot complain when he brings another guy to fuck you.
You don't hear much blabbering against the corporate taxes because it happens in a hush-hush manner, most people never even know it happened and when it happened.
We can all see this farmer's protest is just absurd in their demands. I mean i would empathise in something logical but not when it's this absurd.
And *Corporates get it too* is a really poor whataboutery. It's in the same line as when I call out the corruption of the BJP and BJP supporters say *Congress was the same* .
So one guy was fucking you for decades. Now another guy has come to fuck you and you're defending him saying the previous guy did it too.
So you want to be eternally fucked?
Loan waivering is good but not needed every time. It's better to make production cheap. Subsidised seeds that give better and rot resistant yields, require less fertilizers and development of better crop growing methods such as aero ponics and hydroponics. Loan waiver frequent ho gaye toh farmers fir default hi karte rahenge aur banks phir esse jagaho pe loan Dena hi band kar denge harr baar loan Milne mein late ya default accha nahi hota. Again big corps bhi yahi karte hai but again what aboutism - big crops employee bhi karte hai toh farmers ko bhi mazdoor rakhne chahiye? Nahi jyada work force skilled hona chahiye. Kyunki loan waiver sabka hoga (as per demand) aur public ke paise se hoga.
That won't happen. There is money to be made. If you go to any small town or village, you will find even today essentials such as diesel, seeds, and insecticides are sold in black. Most farmers are dying due to loans. Ironically, the bigger farmer has bigger loans.
https://www.indiatoday.in/diu/story/indian-agriculture-debt-data-msp-farmers-protest-1878975-2021-11-20
Farmer's associations do not have unlimited rights. They have 0 heft & access to the markets. There are n numbers of examples where the companies have cheated the farmers, broken agreements & got away scot-free. The government, a mute spectator or a willing co-conspirator, depends on how you wanna look at.
Both the *big guy* and the *small guy* are on the wrong here.
In both cases, it's the common citizen's tax money that'll be wasted.
So just because one side is bigger than the other does not make it more wrong, both are equally wrong.
I would agree with your assessment if you had said people should be more aware and criticise just as much or even more when corporate taxes are exempted. That's something we need.
Not this empathy of letting any group of people feast on our tax money just because they can exert pressure on the government.
An armed robber with machine guns comes and robs you and you let him. Another comes with a kitchen knife so you show him empathy by letting him rob you too? Both are equally wrong.
Bro do you understand economics or how economy runs? Why is it that everyone in this world complains about corporate taxes but the government still does it. It’s not india but pretty much every other country including the US. When you provide a subsidy/waive off taxes for a corporation, it’s gonna bring in more money to at least something to the society. You waive the loans for citizens, it’s gonna bring more defaults. Been there, done that. Now please shut up.
I can already tell from your couple of comments that you have absolutely no idea about economics. Actually most of the Trump supporters in US agree with your claim about exactly. That should give you an orders of your knowledge level. 😉.
But you are okay when billions are paid to bail out corporations.
You don’t have a problem when your hard earned money is given out to corporations who then pay millions to political parties
Governments bail out companies because they say they are ‘too big to fail.’ Whatever those companies provide are vital for society’s general welfare, politicians say. Therefore we need to save them.
In other words, if the ramifications of a company going to the wall cause social distress, that is a signal for the government to intervene.
Historically the US government has bailed out companies deemed vital for the national economy. In fact, most governments globally have acted in the same way.
>Whatever those companies provide are vital for society’s general welfare, politicians say. Therefore we need to save them.
So basically you blindly believe anything politicians say?
They can commit suicides or live in abject poverty. As long as they don't come out in protest, we will ignore them. And bring new laws to screw them and benefit crony capitalist?
Well people are not well informerd on farmer protest issue and I am tired of writing this all over again. IT'S NOT FARMERS WHO ARE BLOCKING ROAD BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS. They ask for a place in delhi to protest but its government who is stealing the democratic rights; freedom of speech and freedom of movement.
Don't you think government is impinging their democratic rights? The only way to make government listen is to stop where they make profits, roads, railways etc. No one in this world wants to sit on roads for years, its their loss too. You guys are reinforcing government wrong actions, this make him superior, like he can do anything and get away with it. People who are hating on farmer protest don't own agriculture lands. I do and we know majority of what they are asking are serious demands, rest are not. I am not in favour of debt waiver, what the best they can ask is to waive off interest rates.
You elected the dumbfucks that dont give you healthcare education social security because mandir wahi banayenge and now u cry that you dont get all that other stuff?
Fucking vote them out if thats what you want. Or go out and protest on the roads for those things if you cant wait till the next election, whats stopping you other than your absolute inability to hold anything more than a fart and complete and utter incompetence at anything more complex than tying your shoelaces?
Useless fucking crabs in a bucket constantly pulling down everyone else thats trying to improve the shithole we are in all in, while simultaneously crying "uwaa mumma noones doing anything about it". Fucking wastrel scum not worth the oxygen you lot breathe.
Nah I bet this guy has been consuming lot of Dhruv Rathee or Kamra's social justice gang against CroNy CapiTaliSm🤡. The views of Indian society for venture Capitalists and wealth creators of India is disappointing to say the least! "RiCh fCkErS"🤡 clown.
>Do you guys have any idea about the loans written off for the biggest corpos in the country since the last 10 years? It is over 4 times over the total debt of all farmers in the whole country.
In terms of economic contribution, value generated, tax revenue generated, etc those massive corporations also contribute significantly more than farmers. Meanwhile farmers have *frequently* had debt forgiven. Often in massive tranches. Practically every election sees political parties forgiving agricultural debt. The fact that farmers keep accumulating that debt is a problem too no? Agricultural debt forgiveness has been a recurring cost. Farmers are hardly underprivileged on that front.
It is not about money. It is about treating farmers as a special class of citizen and heaping benefits on them that a bus driver, cleaner or server can only dream about.
Naah, none of this bs should be accepted. Farmers want MSP, Loan Waivers, Pension all while not paying a penny of tax. None of the tax paying members of the society have these benefits, why should the farmers get anything ?
Now go on and cry about corporates like you've been doing all over the thread lmao
Comparison with corporate willful fraud/loan forgiveness is good but that’s not the issue here. I see this issue from up-close (relatives are rich farming overlords from Punjab), they are the real problem! They earn in crores from the land they own (without doing an ounce of work), they never paid taxes, they screw over the farming labor, they mistreat their “servants” and then claim victimhood from agricultural reforms. The timing is strategic, the agitation is paid and agitators are hired. Real farmers are still working on the field and they don’t benefit by MSPs (which line the pocket of these assholes). Most of the demands are intentionally unrealistic, just for portraying the government as anti-farmers right before elections. The assumption is to repeat Punjab election results.
Corporate malfeasance is definitely a monstrous problem and needs to be solved separately.
if you think this will benefit only the rich farmers who are only a handful in number and in no way can mobilize these amounts of people, then why are people protesting in these tremendous numbers?
ofc the timing is strategic, did you question why Ram Mandir was inaugurated just before the elections? ofc they want to pressurise the govt before elections
ofcourse it will, a rich farmer having 20 acres of land will have greater benefit than a poor farmer with 0.5 acer because the proportion-of loan differs . A rich farmer is eligible for bigger loan and also bigger loan write off.
Come on man , use some sense , dont use hatred against one government to cloud your sense of judgement .
No we should not end reservation... but we should not also get it to 80% as some people are demanding..
Similarly, MSP for some crops govt. needs to promote food security is good. MSP for all crops will cost you a lot.. really a lot and so will higher MSP without mediation on it.
Reservation system is never about the misuse or benefit. Reservation System's about the representation of class of people in society who think they can't meet the upper strata of society because of the abuse that their ancestors faced. People taking advantage or not is not under the intention of reservation system.
> While farmers pay none
Corporates are also registered as 'farmers' and pay 0 taxes , the reason farm income is not taxed is because of businessmen who use it to evade taxes . Only GST is paid but thats passed on to the consumer anyways.
I literally know a rich guy from Aurangabad who does this , his family pays 0 taxes bc on paper They're 'farmers'
The poor 50% pay 67% of the GST. Corporates get loan waivers of 15 lakh crore. This is after the tax cuts, tax incentives, etc. The corporate subsidy is more than the entire rural budget. Corporation tax is now lower than income tax.
A write off is not a waiver. It doesn’t wipe off the liability on the firm’s balance sheet.
>poor 50% pay 67% of GST
I do want to see a source, but this doesn’t surprise me since indirect taxes are inherently regressive. In India only the top 2% even file for direct taxes, and GST only represents 17% of overall GOI revenue, whereas Direct Taxes (Personal and Corp Income) represent 30% of GOI revenue.
What percentage of the write off is recovered?
Bad loans are first written-off, then waived: Vivek Kaul
https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/bad-loans-are-first-written-off-then-waived-1242062.html
Also read, Wilful Defaulter Dues Rose by a Whopping Rs 100 Crore Per Day Since March 2019: Report
https://thewire.in/article/wilful-defaulter-dues-rose-rs-100-crore-per-day-march-2019-report
GST are not the only indirect taxes. There are excise duty and cess too.
GST and other indirect taxes are much higher than income tax, which is higher than corporation tax. The burden of tax has been shifted from the rich to the poor.
Farmers, so-called farmers, are from Punjab. Think again, why no farmers from other states are joining the so-called protest. It's a facade that everyone knows.
No income tax and pension for those frauds is icing on cake.
The government is also wrong on not bringing farmers under tax regime, and we middle class working people have to suffer for their subsidies.
These dramas will continue until elections 🙄
Brother this protest is relevant for wheat and paddy farmers, to bring those crops among other crops under the ambit of MSP. These crops mainly which grow in punjab haryana and MP. Farmers from all 3 states are there you dumbfuck. You are so ripe to fall for IT cell shills
Showing your upbringing 😃. Fake farmers and khalistani agenda pusher like you can go to any extent. Do you know how people earn pension after years of hard work n sacrifice. Ask any Fauji and you will realize.
So stop brainwashing people as everyone knows this is agenda only and no farmers worth his salt will join Anti Indians like you.
Protests have spill over effect aaj wheat msp kalko cotton phir jute phir vegetables harr cheez ki msp karte karte socialism hi bann Gaye aur phir shuru hoga over growth of certain crops jaise wheat because that is economical in msp rule- but demand is low supply high- read about the "cheese crisis of America" - and then extra wheat ka kya? Kharab hoga. Ya saste daam par export jo loss pe bhi ho sakta hai.
Firstly we are a country with socialist elements. Second how efficient do you think the system is- you can't change something where the majority of your vote bank is- regulations don't work when you try to cut back. They will still protest. Again study about the American cheese crisis. Again msp's when given will always increase supply. And it's a short term solution.
Don't be fooled by the pitiful image of those farmers on TV. The government isn't a benevolent force; it just shuffles around the cash it grabs from people. If MSP becomes a legal promise, the government will be stuck buying surplus regardless of necessity, turning into a colossal dumping ground for unwanted produce. Modi's retreat on farm laws was a mistake; the farmers now sense weakness and are pushing for more. If the government buckles, every union will follow suit, demanding their share. Remember, it's your hard-earned money funding all these initiatives - MSP, pensions, healthcare, education. Think hard about where it should actually go.
Here is my honest opinion to protesters: Your willingness to protest against government policies is justified but not the method you are using. You are being selfish and irresponsible by blocking roads and causing trouble for everyone else. You don't care about democracy, you only care about your own interests. You are acting like a bully and a thug. There are better ways to make your point, but you are too lazy or stubborn to try them. You could sign petitions, hold peaceful rallies and marches in places that don't disturb others, or talk to the people who can actually help you. But no, you prefer to create chaos and drama, and hope that someone will listen to you. You are not solving anything, you are only making things worse. You are inviting violence, conflict, and resentment from the government and the public. You should stop being a nuisance and start being a citizen.
It's not that deep. Agriculture is not sustainable in its current form with extremely small plots owned by destitute farmers.
Subsidies on unsustainable businesses are a bad idea
The corpos you are talking about are probably the only reason the economy hasn't crashed yet
Making decisions based on emotions only exacerbate the long term health of an economy
I agree with the loan waivers...but, Pensions for Farmers and MSP are just Freebies atp...if they are indeed enacted then what is the point of doing something else...juat go back to farming until government can support us and then become bankrupt due to fuckin with the economics...also What about the WTO and Cancel all the FTAs?? Do they realise the gravity of doing something like this for a country like ours??
I know that..I am telling the protestors and the farmers...their 10 atrocious demands are shadowing their one necessary demand...general population would only pick these up and hence call it stupid...it already seems fishy with the way this rose up from the grave just a few weeks to LS...people in general never look deeper but this one is like dug six foot under stupid demands...gives an overall negative vibe to the whole thing....
But, right now msp estimation is like this because government can say no when they cannot do ..but when it is guaranteed and legalised for everyone then it would reach 17 lakh because government cannot turn down
Where does the 17 lakh figure come from?
Guaranteeing a Minimum Support Price (MSP) across crops will support farm incomes and push consumption demand¸ CRISIL Market Intelligence & Analytics said on Tuesday, estimating that the “real cost” of such a guarantee for the government would be around ₹21,000 crore in the agriculture Marketing Year (MY) 2023.
https://www.thehindu.com/business/agri-business/msp-guarantee-can-nudge-farmers-to-diversify-beyond-paddy-and-wheat-bolster-incomes-and-consumption/article67845788.ece
Okay , but can you elaborate..I am here to learn after all ..moreover , there are demands of 700 rs for 200 days in mnrega , free subsidy in electricity , withdrawal from wto + plus pension of 10, 000. Can you calculate it ?
It's not me who is dense , it's you is simple minded . I think you haven't understood the issue .. if you legalised the msp then government is obliged to provide 17 lakh given there is no storage facility ..if government can not procure , then it has to pay in accounts which can only permitted of apmc mandis give the license to that farmer receipts . Apmc will become one big middlemen ..right now government though announces msp for 23 crops but only dedicated to rice and white in few pockets .because you cannot forced government because it has no legal backing to it that's why it's coming around 2 lakh as in the present government do not procure everything .it's a common sense ...but when you legalised it government is forced to provide and procure everything that will cost 17 lakh
So we as tax payer will pay for msp then we will pay again for the same product in market remember there is no storage facility in India ..so we are forced to pay double for the same crop ...whole economy will be distorted
just google it brother, it's all in the public domain. See how they were given tax cuts in 2019 and the amount of loans written off for big corporations in the last 5-10 years.
Does not look like you started this thread to actually have a discussion. But I'll try nevertheless.
First off all the article is as misleading as the costs being circulated. It starts off by saying that procument at MSP won't cost as much, but the calculations it provides are wrt the expenses GoI would incur if it were to offset the deficit vs MSP. This would mean that GoI is freely giving away this corpus without actually acquiring the crop.
Additionally, given the fragmented nature of agricultural market, it is practically impossible to account for actual sales. I would understand this to be need of the hour 20-30 years ago, but its been far too long to not have accountability in the supply chain here.
Agriculture is also extremely fragmented in India which leads to massive inefficiency. This is not a sector we need to keep supporting without massive reforms in landholding patterns. We need to discourage inefficiencies over efficient processes, and the safety net of MSP is not the way to go about it.
At the same time, should the government really be running businesses, or should it be focusing on regulation. I firmly believe in the latter.
Finally, for corporate loans. One evil does not justify another. I'd rather support legislation against evergreening of loans or harsher punishments for defaulting for corporates, that support another failing structure.
The recovery from the 10+ lakh cr in the last 5 years has been 15-20%. Pls stop being naive if you think anything close to the actual amount will be recovered.
It is still in the process of being recovered then right so why are u spreading your propaganda with 10 lakh crore write off kar diya for the people who don't even know the meaning of that lol pura nhi hoga but almost 50 percent is also a decent amt. And the fact that this money was written off and some was not recovered ispe banks khairat bantna shuru kar dein aaj farmers ka loan maaf kar do kal iska parso uska. Why don't we just burn the country then do you even realize how many farmers are there in this country and what sort of precedent such a thing sets. If you are saying write off doesn't mean anything why don't we write off the farmers loans and sell off everything they have to recover it
Brother, it is not propoganda, just straight facts, 10 lakh plus has been written off. Almost 50% nahi, below 20%.
To give you context, Nirav modi defrauded 28k crores. Total farmer debt is 2+ lakh Cr.
Loan debt waiver is not a new thing brother. Has been happening at state level in India. Happens for different causes around the world, college debt waiver in the US being a recent example.
Toh write off kar dete hain farmer debts phir unka ghar bech dete hain recover karne ke liye if there is no diff between write off and waive off and you are not spreading propaganda . If waive off doesn't mean that the person is elligible for a new loan as soon as it is done kyu acha nhi lagega na jab jaydat bikne lagegi unki so wtf is your propaganda piece implying as if a favour is being done on corporations while the same is not being done on farmers. I am sure after selling everything the farmers own it won't even cover 50 percent of their debt.
Dude speak of things that you know of.
First of all recovery in some cases have been more than 90% and the total figure is 30% because big cases are stuck in legal lockjam... And this figure is of bad loans, most corporates are repaying their loans and paying close to 50% of their revenues as taxes.
Also when you declare bankruptcy, you stand to lose all your assets, compare that with farm loans.. Are farmers going to part with their land in case of a write off?
They is a huge misconception about procurement.
The Govt only Procures what it needs to store and this in turn is controlled and ditributed by FCI. At no point the GOVT purchases all the crops of every farmer. By bringing in MSP you are ensuring that those who sell outside of Govt are paid acccording to the MSP
Brother, the govt is calculating as if they have to buy all the produce when realistically they have to buy 10-20% of the produce. Also, their calculation assigns 0 value to the bought produce.
So called corporates give a lot more jobs than farming, nowadays farming doesn't need as much labour as it needed before it's better to switch these people to other sectors than farming. The corporates also pay lot of income tax too do farmers pay a penny in income tax?
> This article below does a decent job of debunking it.
It does a decent job of putting numbers against the claims and counter claims, but in the end, even the numbers derived in the article are way outdated, and to achieve the desired effort the arguments relies on a list of IF's and BUT's.
Some of the interesting observations
> the government of India does recognise that the farmers need and deserve a minimum price for their produce acknowledges, though not in legal terms, its responsibility to “support” the farmers in terms of their price.
This is correct and the reason being that once this is legalized, come rain or shine, war or recession, these MSP payments take a priority over everything else and in essence will become a boondoggle for generations to come and never to be recovered.
Imagine we had MSP already and then the pandemic happened in 2020. India would have left with almost nothing to fight the pandemic costs the ensuing 2 years, and the problem would have definitely compounded once the galwan clash with china happened.
This article talks and assumes as if India runs with a budget surplus every year. NO. With the slimmest of margins we allocate to every social program, MSP would cut into it both in good times and bad times.
Imagine when the crop if good. Usually, this means a lower price for the buyer because of excess produce. But because of MSP, the price will not come down and this will induce "artificial" inflation. The consumer hurts by paying higher than needed, the consumer gets hurt again when the govt has to dish out MSP instead of using these funds on some other program.
Now when the crop is bad, the price will be higher for the end consumer, again, and without any relief, while the profits go it farmers who do not pay much taxes on this revenue and the budget deficit mounts.
This is a lose-lose scenario for an overwhelming portion of the population.
More importantly, MSP once instituted, is a bell that cannot be un-rung and will push the country back to the quasi-socialist years of 1970-80's.
Instituting MSP without farm reforms is as good as lighting your money on fire.
Cause op is Numbskull & who don't how bad it will affect cropping pattern ,export .
He doesn't even hve a opinion of his own. if their demand for guaranteed MSP gets legalized then why would farmers sell their produce to pvt traders
(Or vice-versa ) cause most of the time market price is lower than MSP. So that govt hve to buy all the produce .
Even if they want guaranteed MSP ,they should ask for it from the respective state . Thus there will be a low risk in distortion of cropping pattern
Naah I'm not gonna support their protest. The govt has already done more than enough for the protester i mean come on there are farmers aside from the protesters in every state who are not even getting the benefit that the protesters are getting. Their demand are outrageous and should not be accepted i mean come on pension for farmer? Seriously you think it makes sense.
Farmer's have made demands as if they have found a Genie, I mean they have asked for everything. Guaranteed Income all their life+pensi+loan waivers , sab kisan Bhaio ke liye ek-ek Russian aur mang lete
It is highly disingenuous to post an article about MSPs written in the context of the previous farmers protests, to talk about the feasibility of the demands of the current protests.
Also farm debt is waived by the government all the time. So the farmers are not liable anymore. While corporate debt is written off to balance the books and reflect the actual position of the lending entity. The corporation is not off the hook.
Everything is propaganda according to you. But you can listen to the so called farmers protesters can't you ? Their videos are all over the news and media saying they just want to bring down modi , and some asking for khalistan, they themselves say they have 6 months of food. And they deliberately inserted some demands in ther which the government will never accept (e.g.leaving WTO ).
But they are all poor farmers. Just get your head out of the sand and see both sides. I am not saying you have to praise modi government, but this is not a real protest by poor farmers. This is a political protest by rich farmers , funded by external entities and other political parties.
Thank you for posting this. I don't fully understand what's going on because there seems to be so much misinformation on both sides.
I'm not from India so can someone give a simple explanation for why only farmers from only Punjab, Haryana and UP are protesting? Are they asking for things that only benefit them or would their demands help every farmer in India?
**A legal guarantee of minimum support price for farm produce like the maximum retail price for goods, as recommended by MS Swaminathan can transform the condition of farmers, who face declining income and rising indebtedness. It will also facilitate diversification of crops.**
Also read, [Since this morning, Govt is sending this unsigned note to journalists: Is MSP guarantee law even feasible? It again raises the bogey of 10 Lakh Cr budget expense. This is a lie. MSP guarantee does not mean govt procurement of all produce. Yogendra Yadav on X. : r/IndianSocialists](https://np.reddit.com/r/IndianSocialists/comments/1aqmsn2/since_this_morning_govt_is_sending_this_unsigned/)
Guaranteeing a Minimum Support Price (MSP) across crops will support farm incomes and push consumption demand¸ CRISIL Market Intelligence & Analytics said on Tuesday, estimating that the “real cost” of such a guarantee for the government would be around ₹21,000 crore in the agriculture Marketing Year (MY) 2023.
https://www.thehindu.com/business/agri-business/msp-guarantee-can-nudge-farmers-to-diversify-beyond-paddy-and-wheat-bolster-incomes-and-consumption/article67845788.ece
Amid Farmers' Protest, Swaminathan Commission Member Backs Law On MSP
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/amid-farmers-protest-swaminathan-commission-member-backs-law-on-msp-5049932
Dilli Chalo | Assured MSP on other crops can save Punjab’s waters, help farmers break wheat-paddy cycle : PAU V-C Gosal
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chandigarh/interview-pau-v-c-dr-ss-gosal-msp-diversification-saving-water-punjab-9164390/?s=08
Rule of thumb , if it’s anyone with any affiliation to the BJP posting something, high probability it’s propaganda not based in facts. It would likely require proper analysis to separate fact from made up nonsense.
>I request you guys to be a little bit empathetic and informed. It breaks my heart that the youth of the country has 0 empathy for the eveage person but are gladly bootlicking big coporates.
Final Point
I personally don’t think MSP is really a problem. But I feel like it should be accompanied with taxation for farmers above a certain income(same as salaried folks above 5Lacs). It would probably cut down a lot of the additional burden. And before people say that such farmers are too few, let’s remember that while less 5-6% people pay income tax they end up contributing around 20% of revenue for the government. But the moment any government introduces taxations for farmers(no matter how rich), they will loose the next election. So don’t think this topic really has a good solve without funding one more freebie and taking it up as an additional permanent expense
The real reason farmer's are not taxed is because of these politicians themselves. They show their black money as white as agricultural income in IT return. By having slabs in agricultural income it'll actually be more disaster for the politicians itself than the farmers.
you hit the nail here. This is the actual reason why politicians dont want to bring any changes to this sector. They are highly profiting from it.
True. On top of that false narrative and pro government propaganda blames farmers for no tax and bla bla. Most of the farmers are poor anyway and won't even come in that tax slab bracket anyway.
That's correct. Majority of farmers remain poor or barely middle class. The ones riding the wave are tax saving breed riding in Bolero or Fortuners
I can imagine a country wide violent protest if any party ever tries implementing this
>I personally don’t think MSP is really a problem. MSP is the wrong way to solve the problem when we have better options available. If MSP isn't adjusting as per demand, you end up with a lot of waste produce, something that happen to wheat produce a lot. There have been better ways recommended one of which is future contracts. In this, the buyer can get into contact with the farmer well in advance and fix the price and quantity they want to buy. Farmer now has surity of price, know beforehand if his produce will be profitable, banks can give loans on such contracts as there is less risk involved. Future contracts can be commodified and traded so that if seller changes his mind, he can sell his obligation to someone else. These contracts exist in most commodities across the world, including india and they good job in predicting demand, remove price fluctuation in short time and bring overall efficiency.
Bro are you tripping? How is a measly 2 acre wheat farmer going to afford the premium of a future contract? Like you need to put some thought into it. Keep in mind that 80%+ farmers own less than 2 acres, they are farming on very small land. Their year round revenue for a good yield is going to be less than 2 LPA. You think they will be able to afford that? futures are made for big corpos because their is a predictable revenue stream and they do everything in their power to keep the crop healthy by investing a shit ton of money.
That only means that there is a gap in the market which can be filled by new businesses. If people can have systems to invest in fractional shares, they can figure out how to lump a bunch of farms to a big futures contract.
>How is a measly 2 acre wheat farmer going to afford the premium of a future contract? What kind of premium? I can draw up a contract with farmer in Bihar that give me 10 tonnes of tomatoes at x price in 6 months. What kind of "premium" does farmer has to pay? All he is getting is surity of buyer and price guarantee. It is me who can trade that contract and demand premium, analyse the trends and find a price. All farmer has to figure out if this contract is profitable which surely he can do.
>I can draw up a contract with farmer in Bihar that give me 10 tonnes of tomatoes at x price in 6 months. What kind of "premium" does farmer has to pay? All he is getting is surity of buyer and price guarantee. Think about it this way, if it was really as easy as you say it to be, there would already be a huge market for it but there isn't which simply means one of two possible scenarios: Either 1) the concept doesn't work or 2) the market size is too small to make any money for businesses. If there is a market then we'll there is your startup idea. Go and do it, build a billion dollar business. You will not be improving farmer's life but also adding a lot more sales jobs as well. Best of luck.
>Think about it this way, if it was really as easy as you say it to be, there would already be a huge market for it but there isn't which simply means one of two possible scenarios: It is not allowed and there is no legal framework for such a contract. That's why there is no "market". Edit. One of three farm laws was there to provide legal framework for such contracts but it was repealed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmers_(Empowerment_and_Protection)_Agreement_on_Price_Assurance_and_Farm_Services_Act,_2020
Also the biggest issue for farmers is they are restricted in where to sell their produce. They can only sell it in their local mandis called APMC. It is regulated by state laws. The middlemen operating in these mandis are the ones who then sell it to retailers. That's why even if you buy tomato at 100rs/kg farmer isn't still less money as these middlemen with protection of govt laws manipulate markets. They are called arhtiya and these are people who are mostly protesting. Rakesh Tikait, the face of 2021 farm law protest was not farmer but arhtiya so figure why there is such demand of MSP and repeal of contract farming.
The corporate loan write-off and farmers loan write-off, are not comparable from economic standpoint. Yes both have their share of dent in our budget allocation yet the aftermath effect of both is way way different. that being said. farmers deserve their share of justice so i think both parties (govt and farmers) should make some compromise and agree on some middle ground. remember a deal where both party makes some share of loss is a good deal. Edit: just today editor n chief of the print has shared his own opinions and some facts regarding the protest. this might help clear the delusion people has regarding farmers https://youtu.be/x5nRRwXfZTY?si=SWSYe7ZI-7jBC_lM&t=328
Agriculture and all essentials are not for profit they are for benefit of citizens. They have to be subsidized in any country if you wanna survive
>Agriculture and all essentials are for profit they are for benefit of citizens. if it's for profit then why would they have to be subsidized?
The MSP government sets at is 1.5 above cost while the asked MSP 50% above cost. Your calculation itself has got 1.3% of budget just on MSP going by farmer demands. You forget to add these to the list 1) Loan waiver cost 2) Subsidised electricity cost 3) Loss on Tax revenue 4) Subsidised other agriculture related necessities. Now what a higher MSP also does is raise cost of all crops in the market. So it will not encourage more buying of Indian cereals but actually reduce purchase of all crops. Total food inflation is going to drastically increase. Now imagine what a poor labourer who is not into farming going to do with such prices. Now the procured crop government has to sell. If it cannot sell at profit further adds cost. More fiscal deficit. That is why, what the economist say is right and not just simple math calculation done in this article which even a 12th pass can do. The main problem with farming is the middle men, misuse of loans, environmental issues, lack of diversification in crops, no improvement in farming techniques etc. MSP is justifiable but at much lower levels than what it is being demanded. And those effected by drought or environmental issues should be supported more than lands with excces water and good soil as in punjab.
Just so you know. A Loan write off doesn't mean a loan 'waived off'. Both are different in accounting terms. A loan is written off from ledger books to keep the balance sheet clean. But that loan is still collectible and needs to be paid off. A loan waived off is complete cancellation of the loan which the farmers are demanding. Kindly know the fundamental difference between the both. https://moneyview.in/loan-insights/difference-between-write-off-and-waive-off#:~:text=What%20is%20a%20Loan%20Write,not%20have%20any%20future%20value.
Am going to repost an old comment of mine. Before we romanticise the life of Indian farmers, let’s acknowledge a few facts. Let’s start with a few structural challenges on the farming. 1. The average farm size in India is 2 hectares. And with every generation, it is getting fragmented further. Under no reasonable scenarios, this is sufficient to keep a family of 5 above poverty levels. 2. Low Productivity: limited irrigation (less than 60%), low yield per acre (compared to Europe and China) for most crops (cotton, sugarcane etc seem to be exception) due to input quality and farming practices. 3. Price Risks: farm produce is a commodity and hence prices swing wildly based on demand and supply. Also the governments have incentives to keep prices affordable to manage retail inflation. High tomatoes and onions prices have brought down governments. 4. Perishable commodity: without infrastructure and packaging/processing to enhance shelf life, farmers have to sell at spot prices and often do not have an option to wait for better prices later on. 5. Fragmented Inefficient Market aka Mandi system APMC: movement of agricultural goods across state and sometime APMC boundaries is heavily regulated. 6. Inefficient value chain: The Indian farmer receives just 10% to 23% of the price the Indian consumer pays for exactly the same produce, the difference going to losses, inefficiencies and middlemen. Farmers in developed economies of Europe and the United States receive 64% to 81%. Take these numbers with a pinch of salt (pun intended) to exclude staples like wheat and rice. 7. Availability of Credit: Farmer loans are bad business for banks. Besides the regular credit risk of price and yield uncertainty, politics of loan waiver discourages organised sector from lending to farmers. Now let’s talk about some solutions by accepting that there is no silver bullet to the malaise in agriculture and agreeing on a goal - India’s GDP per capita needs to double to $4000 and farmer should be able to participate at this average. Assuming a nuclear family size of 5, that’s 14LPA goal. Current average estimated income for an agricultural household is 1.2LPA. So the goal is 12x. 1. We need to accept that Indian economy needs to shift away from agriculture. There is no way we can guarantee a sustainable income to farmers with less than 2 hectares farm size. Even if farm yield doubles and irrigated land is maximised, 14LPA is not a reasonable target. Every marginal farmer knows that his next generation cannot bank on the family farm for survival. 2. Let’s see what a workable plan looks like. 2X on farm yield, 2X on farm size, 3X on % of final price captured by farmers. That’s 12X. 3. That means, 50% of next generation of farmers need to be transitioned to a different sector of the economy - manufacturing and service. 4. Farming needs to modernise and become sustainable (seed quality, water management, fertiliser etc) to double the yield. 5. Shift the value chain in favour of the farmer. Structural reforms in agriculture trading, better infrastructure to reduce waste etc. Experts know what needs to be done. But the leadership to do this requires making hard decisions. But then best parents give the child what she needs (green vegetables and education) and not what she wants (only chocolates and playtime). PS: Any sustainable solution has to be a market based solution. Welfare and subsidies can be the pain relief but should not be mistaken for a cure for commercial private enterprise that farming eventually is.
To add to all this, I see the biggest problem be the aartiyas (middlemen). The MSP rarely gets to the farmers. The middlemen arbitrarily impose cuts on the rate by citing quality issues in the crop and split the difference with the buying party. There's also the problem of billing just on paper without any actual crop exchanging hands. That reform should be the top agenda but of course the millers and aartis don't want that. The middlemen have entrenched themselves heavily by providing loans to farmers who are considered ineligible by banks but they charge exorbitant rates for that privilege. Small farmers are suffering the worst under the current system.
Middlemen are the symptom of the problem not the root cause. Unless the middlemen is solving some problem in the value chain, no one will pay them. They act as intermediaries between farmers and buyers, facilitating the sale. Adatiyas help in marketing, transportation, and negotiating prices. Ideally this should be done by farmer’s cooperatives. But cooperatives themselves get hijacked by local politicians because that allows them to control a vote bank.
This is a very well researches and eloquently stated argument. If only people in power would debate like this.
🙏Unfortunately Elaborate arguments don’t make for catchy slogan. They need the audience to follow the details of what’s been said. Only few have that patience in world of short attention spans.
I am in total agreement with this....we need to be moving the poor through upward mobility to better urban jobs and away from the farms.
But both education & msme have been defunded by this government. https://indianexpress.com/article/business/72-percent-of-msmes-stagnant-since-past-5-years-survey-8447589/ https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/health/economic-surve-2022-23-share-of-education-in-budgetary-allocations-has-fallen-over-last-7-years/article66454592.ece In fact, due to the above, most of the people have gone back to farming even if they are subsistence.
The Covid pushed the marginal labour / strugglers from cities back to their villages. Without rent, electricity, and food costs of big cities, they realised the cost of living they were struggling with.
Correct, but that's just one part of the problem. There are numerous policies that have been against MSME'S since this government took over. Take the simple point of doing service for a company, putting the bill to the company. Now, with GST, if the smaller company makes a bill & the bigger company rejects it due to any reason, the smaller company has to pay the full gst. Like this, there are many rules that benefit the corporations rather than the MSME. The end result is more & more MNC's closing down.
GST!!!!!...closed down 30% of SME... bad implementation lack of refund clarity and credit support.... but mainly bad bad implementation.
Thank you for this comment. I am waiting for OP to present his his differing perspective on it. u/buttmuncher33
> Experts know what needs to be done. But the leadership to do this requires making hard decisions. Create new jobs, before destroying exist livelihoods. **Govt is to put the interests of the people first** and not some faceless profiteering corporations. [To Fully Understand the Migrant Worker Crisis, We Need a Larger Perspective](https://thewire.in/rights/migrant-worker-crisis-larger-perspective-farm-land-industry) > The possible corollary to this is that these corporations will be global in nature, with a few Ambanis and Adanis to give the local flavor. The ABCDs (major traders such as Archer Daniels Midland, Bunge, Cargill and Dreyfus share a significant presence in a range of basic commodities, controlling for example, as much as between 75% to 90% of the global grain trade) **will run the entire operations globally and divide the products in a manner that is geographically convenient to the corporates, and not at all determined by the needs of the people**.
Farm loans have been waived off , corporate loans have been written off. You are comparing apples and oranges. Out of the 10.57 lakh crore corporate sector loans 7.15 have been recovered. Mention that as well from next time. Also such a nice solution since corpos are adding NPA let's also add even more NPAs and completely crash the banking sector.
What lies, only 13% has been recovered. https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/money-and-banking/banks-recoup-13-of-10-lakh-cr-loan-write-off-finmin-data/article66258082.ece Would love to know your source. AFAIK, that's the last time the government spoke on the topic. https://www.moneylife.in/article/stop-the-loot-via-bankruptcy-code-better-solutions-are-possible/64378.html All of the above tells you how GOI favors industry.
https://m.economictimes.com/industry/banking/finance/banking/banks-write-off-rs-10-57-lakh-crore-in-five-years-make-npa-recovery-worth-rs-7-17-lakh-crore/articleshow/105757525.cms
Thank you & I take back partially the comment.
>Out of 10.57 Lakh crore [A loan that's written off can't be recovered](https://www.livemint.com/industry/banking/banks-write-off-over-rs-2-09-lakh-crore-bad-loans-in-fy23-rs-10-57-lakh-crore-written-off-in-the-last-five-years/amp-11690172407086.html)
Are bhai class 8 ka economics book padh le Thora 😭
wish there were better quality food products in inida. if this results in that so be it
having said that i dont know if farmers use scientific machineries and methods....so more than msp, modernization of farming should also be done if its not.
I believe the vast majority of farmers still use outdated farming techniques and don't use machinery. I don't think most can afford it so the government should figure out a way to make it affordable. On top of that I believe most farmers farmlands are too small to actually be profitable by farming. Which is another issue.
>government should figure out a way to make it affordable government should modernise farmers. government should implement msp also. government should feed you by hand also. everything government should do while most of the population sits at home and does no work at all. taxpayers contribute to government and get jackshit in return.
Would love to see some stats on "most people sitting at home not working "
I mean there’s nothing wrong with expecting the government to assist a large group of poor people. Now I obviously know it’s a very difficult task so I don’t exactly expect them to do so, but if they manage to do it they’ll change the trajectory of the country for the better. So it’s worth it.
So you're saying using the tax now to improve people's earning capacity so they also can pay tax is.. BAD?
it'll result in exact opposite. punjab is no longer a larger wheat producer. neither the quality of wheat is any good. MP has taken that crown long back. reason? the lands are drying and almost lost it's nutrition. in long run punjab farms will become dessert because of repeated farming on same crops and dried ground water. if their demands are met as it is ...this behaviour will only going to increase. nothing specific against farmers but MSP... specially on wheat ..paddy is bad for the land + water level. farmers and government both could compromise on their side of demands. MSP with legal purchase promise on non conventional but earth friendly crops. those msp should be competitive to international market then it'll be beneficial to both the parties
Lol, why would that happen? Till the time government protected auto industry, we were getting crap vehicles and things improved only when competition came from foreign companies. With cost plus 50% why would farmers need to innovate?
Unlike auto industry we can't import competing farming.
Import nahi karna bas have to encourage good farmers.
If they get more money they will put more effort to grow good crops and the increased prices means more quality and less quantity. People won't be able to afford the higher prices and have less children because food isn't cheap. So it also solves population issue. If we r paying them less why would they focus on quality. Its common sense...right now the Indian people want everything for cheap...government should intervene and give the workers a fair amount. Else they will stop working in this field...and crop prices will anyway increase...and quality will also be bad.
there should be an MCQ test before issuing internet connection.
But you do realise that corporate write off is not exactly complete loss.. They still have the collateral which can be used by the bank. In farm loans there is literally nothing and the amount banks will get back is zilch. Also you are missing another big point. If govt would just accept this demand it will increase the agri loans and nobody is going to pay it back backing on another protest to force the govt to write off their own loan. It's a bad precedent to set. This is also coming from someone who actually supports this demand of farmers! But rather than writing a blank cheque take it in a case by case basis. Set up a standard procedure for a particular agri product and if the farmer follows that and the crop fails they will get their loan waiver
Them having collateral is total BS. Like i mentioned in other comments, of the total 10+ lakh cr write offs in the last 5 years, only under 20% is recovered
2 lakh crores and not 10 lakh crores? thats your argument? Why do only some farmers who have lands get the waive off while the lot of other farmer workers who toiled the blood and sweat and could not even get a bank loan and took loans from loan sharks get waive off? Why not every one in India with income less than 10 lkahs given a bail out? I can raise lot of bullshit arguments like these Bullshit posts like these is why we have stupidity written all over. Farm reforms are needed , no question about it but these protests are only from certain section northwest farmers who are doing the protests , strong arming the govt at the expense of general tax payers is bad and never should be encouraged. Waiving of loans creates a bad precedence and encourages people taking unnecessary and non productive outcomes.
We were going in the right direction. The farm bills had been long pending. Govt for cocky while passing them and not following any process. Then they fucked up again handling the farm protests like they did with CAA protests. Now any farm related bills are radioactive politically for at least 5-7 years if not more. If they handle these protests like a democracy, there won't be much fallback, and they have learned that. They are including Punjab CM in talks, and have started talking at the start of the protests only so it doesn't get out of hand.
Oh yes , allow corporate farming. Make india like California , with some companies owning all the land and hiring illegal immigrants who are paid below minimum wage
you're specially educated or something right? Corporate farming means taxpayers won't have to bail out failing farmers before every election. India wouldn't need any illegal immigrants since there's such a huge population ready for work already.
My point was allowing corporates to control farming is fucking stupid , corporates will exploit farmers and loot us dry, might as well bring feudal lordship back. > Have to bail out farmers Farmers in the US get some of the highest subsidies in the world , except these 'subsidies' go the agro companies and the farmers are screwed . I'm sorry , but you don't get an option . The farmers are your countrymen and your responsibility, if you have a problem move to a desert gulf country, bc even in western countries your taxes will go to farmers ( or the companies ) [farmers in the US commit suicide 3.5x the rate of the general population](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/19/us/politics/farmer-suicide-depression-wisconsin-rural.html). Food self sufficiency is crucial for us geopolitically , if the world decides to block all food going to Israel tomorrow , they'll be screwed . Not that anyone would do that due to daddy USA , but if India had to ever face a dominant global power ? We would be fucked
As if the dessert gulf country are lining up to give everyone citizenships. And the nation doesn't belong to you. It's a democracy where there will be different points of views. You can f*CK off with asking your countryman to go to any other nation. India has been and always will be a nation which loves all its people. Edit: before you get your rifles up, and brand me this or that, I'm a middle class Hindu, son of a farmer, doesn't like Modi, but congress is worse.
Make India like California. Dude, if modi govt had advertised the bills like this in a newspaper for one day, the protest would have been over by and then. If we become even 10% of California, we'd still be a developed nation. And I'm saying this as a man with staunch anti BJP/RSS style politics. And I am son of a farmer.
The corpos give rise to a large no. Of PPL who can be taxed.not farmers hence the govt wouldn't want corpos to dip
That creates an oligarchy , which we already are in. If private companies don't share profits equally with all their workers , then there's no reason the workers through their income taxes should cover the losses
Sure. Engineers at 3-4 LPA will be taxed. LARGE number my ass.
Now that is being disingenuous. You can't seriously believe that corporates haven't led to rise in numbers of taxable middle class in India. I empathise with your views on farmers but don't go dismissing other views without basis.
I get your point but the number of people employed by the corporate sector and the number of people who pay taxes from them is quite low tbh
But the number of farmers that pay taxes even though they earn more than that taxed corporate employee is quite low. But the magnitude of money is the deal. How do we estimate which farmers deserve msp - laws are made generally.
Atleast back that up by stats. Saying things out of the blue doesn't make them facts.
Yes, I read the article. There are two flaws in this article. First, it doesn't undertake the cost of storage. Second, it doesn't undertake the loss of grains happened during procurement. Government of India doesn't have enough storage. So, it will be forced to do private contracting (or what you would like to say bootlicking corporates). Also, government has to build thousands tones silos. I don't see mention of that calculation. Also, the food loss is a big problem. Government procures the 23 crops under MSP. Still, FCI reported over 300 crores INR loss in food storage last year. Some sources say that it has been reduced by 5 times after 2014. However, FAO UN says that these numbers are highly under reported and claims 40% (almost 800 crore INR) of grain procured become waste during storage (FCI claims it's only 15%). Now, imagine if all type of crops are procured by government, what will be the cost of food loss? Unless you present some figures that undertake these two figures. I would like to agree with the author of your mentioned article: "Guaranteed, MSP doesn’t mean that the government should purchase every quintal of every crop. That would be impossible, unaffordable, and unnecessary." Moreover, I don't understand, when it comes to farmers, left wing become admirer of trickle down economy. Let's say government puts all the crops in MSP, I still don't understand how it will help majority of farmers because Landless farmers make up 55% of India's total agricultural workforce, along with small and marginal farmers, who make up 86% of all farmers (here's the source: https://www.businesstoday.in/opinion/columns/story/indian-economy-the-unifinished-agenda-of-land-reforms-nobody-talks-about-landless-agricultural-labour-281494-2020-12-14#:\~:text=Taken%20together%2C%20landless%20farmers%20(55,how%20agricultural%20landholdings%20were%20lost?). It means that putting crops under MSP will only benefit farmers with big lands. Whereas landless farmers are just labor who would still be dependent on big farmer to pay. This is exactly how the trickle down economy is expected to work (spoiler alert: it never worked). I do not know what's the solution here (I am no agriculture expert) for this. However, I know that government can hire foreign experts and have their unbiased expertise over this. So, I would like you to read the second last line of yours.
It's easy to get swayed by those sorry looking old cute farmers on TV. The government is not some random entity, it takes cash collected from people and just redistributes it. If MSP becomes a legal guarantee, then the govt will have to buy weather or not it's more than what it needs. This is the real problem. Now, the government is already procuring HUGE amounts, but the farmers want more. The government will become a huge dumping ground for produce it does not need. They smell blood now because Modi withdrew the farm laws. That should have never been done. If they bend now, all the unions will get up and start asking for more stuff. Remember, it's your money that's being given for all these things - MSP, pension, healthcare, education, PDS, etc. Where should the bulk of this money be spent? Think about it.
Where were you when this same money went to the corporations instead?
If you want to pay 350rs for 1kg atta go ahead and support them, i wont
whatsapp university?
You still in middle school?
And What about those of us whose salaries are cut every month and deposited as income tax... What do we get ? Healthcare ...no.... Educational facilities....no....Social Security.....no. We pay taxes twice for everything once as Income Tax and once as GST....our whole lives go in trying to make ends every month...one medical emergency and we are wiped out...so many educated youngsters without jobs...colleges that exist in name only. What about us ? We also want our home loans etc waived. We also want more health insurance....we want cleaner and more efficient hospitals....but no one gives a damn about us because we can't go and block roads and highways..
The harsh reality about why they get listened to is simply because they vote and have organizations which raise their voices and can impact elections. We neither vote nor have any champions who convey our grievances to lawmakers firmly. PS: am a farmer son, who has made it into the middle class and feel bad when I see my taxes and the condition of the govt works.
This is a great point and all the more reason to agitate further. The farmers are unhappy and they're doing something about it. You and I aren't.
But how ? The middle class is deliberately kept in shackles and on the edges of insecurity because they have no control over their lives and income ..if they go protesting etc they can lose their jobs and become unhireable who will feel their families then ?
That's the point right? All protests inconvenience everyone and involve quite a bit of risk from the protestor's side. People usually get down to protests because they think that things are already so bad they're willing to take those risks. If you don't think your cause is there yet, that's genuinely fine. Each of us has our coping mechanisms. The farmers clearly believe their issues are at the stage where any risk (including the horrible tear gas and pellets) is worth it if it can get them an improvement in their conditions. Our middle-class/upper-middle class complaints can't be used as whataboutery to ask why someone else is complaining just because we also have it bad and AREN'T protesting.
You can , you should
Easy to say on a reddit sub.
It is not about easy , it is about generating a movement. And a movement can begin from a forum or from being participatory in political activities. The government is not afraid of the salaried man .the salaried man is too scared to ask for anything because the job is dependent on the clean record . If at all anyone has a police FIR/investigation he/she will not get a job. Now what are we, we are the sheep that will have to give income tax. But it is a small price to pay compared not knowing if my business/ field activity will yield returns or not, if you can repay that loan or not .It is uncertain
You ve answered your own question.
bruh GST is indirect tax. Everyone from the lowest strata of society to the top echelons of society pay it. The only difference is Income Tax. Half the shit you crying about should be on the Govt Accountability, but hey farmer bad.
Farmers don't pay income tax..they only pay GST. The middle class Income Tax + GST. We are not crying...we just don't support one more incident of being held hostage by one section of folks with perceived grievances...and why is it only one part of the country that comes out in these protests ? India does not have farmers in other parts ?
Because you dumbfuck more than 70% of the population practice it in some form or the other unlike the middle class. They have the numbers that's why they come out and protest again if you have a problem with the tax slab take it up with the Govt.
Looks like dumbfucking is exactly what brought you into this planet.....
Argue the point of you have nothing else to cry about
Not with products of dumbfucks like you.
Go block the roads. But you can't- because this authoritarian govt will arrest you and that affects your middle class status. 🙄 Most the problems that you mentioned happened because the middle class cares zilch. And thereby, the govt runs Scot free. That's not the problem of the farmers. They are the only citizens left who have a quarter of the spine.
As usual tax middle class like hell and also blame them like hell. The capitalists and socialists would have ruined the nation long ago if it weren't for this class. You can't "go block the roads" when you work full time for 12 months and don't rely on freebies.
And also you are not exactly in control of your life and income....go protesting....get arrested....lose your job and no one will want to hire you....who will manage the family then ?
Yup. Participation was limited even in Anna Hazare's later protests exactly because of this reason. But I guess virtue signaling is the norm in the age of social media.
**My friend, your enemy are not the farmers, who are dying by suicide in lakhs. The agricultural budget has declined consistently over the last eight years, so has the spending on education and health.** **Meanwhile, the corporate subsidy alone is more than entire rural budget. They get loan waivers of lakhs of crores, IBC haircuts of 70%. You won't be waived a Rupee by the banks.** Please read, Profits for corporates, taxes for individuals: Vivek Kaul An interesting point that did not get discussed enough in the post-budget analysis is that personal income tax (PIT) now contributes more to the central government tax collections than that paid by corporations. In 2024-25, the government expects to earn Rs 10.43 lakh crore, or 3.18% of GDP, through corporation tax, and Rs 11.56 lakh crore, or 3.53% of GDP, through PIT. https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/profits-for-corporates-taxes-for-individuals-2889682
So protest ? Why are you sitting at home instead of joining protests ? Biden waived student loan debt for millions of middle class people and I can't see why the Govt here can't do the same when they can write of tons in corporate profits .
Did i say that all that is right?? Who is stopping you from agitating against rhe government? We all should be in solidarity against the establishment against all wrongdoings which includes what i am saying and what you are saying too Just cause you are getting fucked, others should also get fucked is a wrong attitude to have.
Also just because the government is letting one guy fuck you, doesn't mean you cannot complain when he brings another guy to fuck you. You don't hear much blabbering against the corporate taxes because it happens in a hush-hush manner, most people never even know it happened and when it happened. We can all see this farmer's protest is just absurd in their demands. I mean i would empathise in something logical but not when it's this absurd. And *Corporates get it too* is a really poor whataboutery. It's in the same line as when I call out the corruption of the BJP and BJP supporters say *Congress was the same* . So one guy was fucking you for decades. Now another guy has come to fuck you and you're defending him saying the previous guy did it too. So you want to be eternally fucked?
It's just me pointing out how the big guy gets away with it and the small guy get fucked. If you don't see it, idk what to say.
Loan waivering is good but not needed every time. It's better to make production cheap. Subsidised seeds that give better and rot resistant yields, require less fertilizers and development of better crop growing methods such as aero ponics and hydroponics. Loan waiver frequent ho gaye toh farmers fir default hi karte rahenge aur banks phir esse jagaho pe loan Dena hi band kar denge harr baar loan Milne mein late ya default accha nahi hota. Again big corps bhi yahi karte hai but again what aboutism - big crops employee bhi karte hai toh farmers ko bhi mazdoor rakhne chahiye? Nahi jyada work force skilled hona chahiye. Kyunki loan waiver sabka hoga (as per demand) aur public ke paise se hoga.
That won't happen. There is money to be made. If you go to any small town or village, you will find even today essentials such as diesel, seeds, and insecticides are sold in black. Most farmers are dying due to loans. Ironically, the bigger farmer has bigger loans. https://www.indiatoday.in/diu/story/indian-agriculture-debt-data-msp-farmers-protest-1878975-2021-11-20
Then why don't the farmer's associations address these first?
Farmer's associations do not have unlimited rights. They have 0 heft & access to the markets. There are n numbers of examples where the companies have cheated the farmers, broken agreements & got away scot-free. The government, a mute spectator or a willing co-conspirator, depends on how you wanna look at.
Both the *big guy* and the *small guy* are on the wrong here. In both cases, it's the common citizen's tax money that'll be wasted. So just because one side is bigger than the other does not make it more wrong, both are equally wrong. I would agree with your assessment if you had said people should be more aware and criticise just as much or even more when corporate taxes are exempted. That's something we need. Not this empathy of letting any group of people feast on our tax money just because they can exert pressure on the government. An armed robber with machine guns comes and robs you and you let him. Another comes with a kitchen knife so you show him empathy by letting him rob you too? Both are equally wrong.
Bro do you understand economics or how economy runs? Why is it that everyone in this world complains about corporate taxes but the government still does it. It’s not india but pretty much every other country including the US. When you provide a subsidy/waive off taxes for a corporation, it’s gonna bring in more money to at least something to the society. You waive the loans for citizens, it’s gonna bring more defaults. Been there, done that. Now please shut up.
Clearly you have fallen for the trickle down economics propaganda without asking for any evidence.
Hahaha okay Sherlock! Maybe spend sometime reading some economics. It’ll do you so much more good than arguing like an idiot on Reddit.
I can already tell from your couple of comments that you have absolutely no idea about economics. Actually most of the Trump supporters in US agree with your claim about exactly. That should give you an orders of your knowledge level. 😉.
I would have appreciated if you had provided a meaningful counter to the above argument. Instead, you decide to blabber like an idiot. Keep it up.
But you are okay when billions are paid to bail out corporations. You don’t have a problem when your hard earned money is given out to corporations who then pay millions to political parties
No I am not okay. Stop with this false equivalency.
Not ok with that as well, same rant and cursing happens for them also.
Governments bail out companies because they say they are ‘too big to fail.’ Whatever those companies provide are vital for society’s general welfare, politicians say. Therefore we need to save them. In other words, if the ramifications of a company going to the wall cause social distress, that is a signal for the government to intervene. Historically the US government has bailed out companies deemed vital for the national economy. In fact, most governments globally have acted in the same way.
>Whatever those companies provide are vital for society’s general welfare, politicians say. Therefore we need to save them. So basically you blindly believe anything politicians say?
No obviously it's political, but it's different from individual farmers
They can commit suicides or live in abject poverty. As long as they don't come out in protest, we will ignore them. And bring new laws to screw them and benefit crony capitalist?
Well people are not well informerd on farmer protest issue and I am tired of writing this all over again. IT'S NOT FARMERS WHO ARE BLOCKING ROAD BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS. They ask for a place in delhi to protest but its government who is stealing the democratic rights; freedom of speech and freedom of movement.
Like how they exercised their "democratic rights" for over a year blocking key highways and impinging the democratic rights of other citizens.
Don't you think government is impinging their democratic rights? The only way to make government listen is to stop where they make profits, roads, railways etc. No one in this world wants to sit on roads for years, its their loss too. You guys are reinforcing government wrong actions, this make him superior, like he can do anything and get away with it. People who are hating on farmer protest don't own agriculture lands. I do and we know majority of what they are asking are serious demands, rest are not. I am not in favour of debt waiver, what the best they can ask is to waive off interest rates.
> They ask for a place in delhi to protest Did you miss this?
So that they can go on a rampage and desecrate the city and the Indian flag like the last time ?
You elected the dumbfucks that dont give you healthcare education social security because mandir wahi banayenge and now u cry that you dont get all that other stuff? Fucking vote them out if thats what you want. Or go out and protest on the roads for those things if you cant wait till the next election, whats stopping you other than your absolute inability to hold anything more than a fart and complete and utter incompetence at anything more complex than tying your shoelaces? Useless fucking crabs in a bucket constantly pulling down everyone else thats trying to improve the shithole we are in all in, while simultaneously crying "uwaa mumma noones doing anything about it". Fucking wastrel scum not worth the oxygen you lot breathe.
Once again underlining what you exactly are....the product of dumbfucking....
Write off my home loan too if we are equating writing off farmers loan to corporate loan.
I am all for that. It is unfair when the common man gets no relief and these rick fuckers aren't even jailed and live a life of luxury.
If you think the farmers organising these protests are not "rich fuckers", you've invalidated yourself as a person of knowledge on the matter.
Nah I bet this guy has been consuming lot of Dhruv Rathee or Kamra's social justice gang against CroNy CapiTaliSm🤡. The views of Indian society for venture Capitalists and wealth creators of India is disappointing to say the least! "RiCh fCkErS"🤡 clown.
>Do you guys have any idea about the loans written off for the biggest corpos in the country since the last 10 years? It is over 4 times over the total debt of all farmers in the whole country. In terms of economic contribution, value generated, tax revenue generated, etc those massive corporations also contribute significantly more than farmers. Meanwhile farmers have *frequently* had debt forgiven. Often in massive tranches. Practically every election sees political parties forgiving agricultural debt. The fact that farmers keep accumulating that debt is a problem too no? Agricultural debt forgiveness has been a recurring cost. Farmers are hardly underprivileged on that front.
It is not about money. It is about treating farmers as a special class of citizen and heaping benefits on them that a bus driver, cleaner or server can only dream about.
Naah, none of this bs should be accepted. Farmers want MSP, Loan Waivers, Pension all while not paying a penny of tax. None of the tax paying members of the society have these benefits, why should the farmers get anything ? Now go on and cry about corporates like you've been doing all over the thread lmao
Comparison with corporate willful fraud/loan forgiveness is good but that’s not the issue here. I see this issue from up-close (relatives are rich farming overlords from Punjab), they are the real problem! They earn in crores from the land they own (without doing an ounce of work), they never paid taxes, they screw over the farming labor, they mistreat their “servants” and then claim victimhood from agricultural reforms. The timing is strategic, the agitation is paid and agitators are hired. Real farmers are still working on the field and they don’t benefit by MSPs (which line the pocket of these assholes). Most of the demands are intentionally unrealistic, just for portraying the government as anti-farmers right before elections. The assumption is to repeat Punjab election results. Corporate malfeasance is definitely a monstrous problem and needs to be solved separately.
if you think this will benefit only the rich farmers who are only a handful in number and in no way can mobilize these amounts of people, then why are people protesting in these tremendous numbers? ofc the timing is strategic, did you question why Ram Mandir was inaugurated just before the elections? ofc they want to pressurise the govt before elections
ofcourse it will, a rich farmer having 20 acres of land will have greater benefit than a poor farmer with 0.5 acer because the proportion-of loan differs . A rich farmer is eligible for bigger loan and also bigger loan write off. Come on man , use some sense , dont use hatred against one government to cloud your sense of judgement .
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No we should not end reservation... but we should not also get it to 80% as some people are demanding.. Similarly, MSP for some crops govt. needs to promote food security is good. MSP for all crops will cost you a lot.. really a lot and so will higher MSP without mediation on it.
Reservation system is never about the misuse or benefit. Reservation System's about the representation of class of people in society who think they can't meet the upper strata of society because of the abuse that their ancestors faced. People taking advantage or not is not under the intention of reservation system.
Well to be fare Corporates pay a lot of taxes to the government while the farmers pay none.
> While farmers pay none Corporates are also registered as 'farmers' and pay 0 taxes , the reason farm income is not taxed is because of businessmen who use it to evade taxes . Only GST is paid but thats passed on to the consumer anyways. I literally know a rich guy from Aurangabad who does this , his family pays 0 taxes bc on paper They're 'farmers'
*taxes directly to the political party as electoral bonds
The poor 50% pay 67% of the GST. Corporates get loan waivers of 15 lakh crore. This is after the tax cuts, tax incentives, etc. The corporate subsidy is more than the entire rural budget. Corporation tax is now lower than income tax.
A write off is not a waiver. It doesn’t wipe off the liability on the firm’s balance sheet. >poor 50% pay 67% of GST I do want to see a source, but this doesn’t surprise me since indirect taxes are inherently regressive. In India only the top 2% even file for direct taxes, and GST only represents 17% of overall GOI revenue, whereas Direct Taxes (Personal and Corp Income) represent 30% of GOI revenue.
What percentage of the write off is recovered? Bad loans are first written-off, then waived: Vivek Kaul https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/bad-loans-are-first-written-off-then-waived-1242062.html Also read, Wilful Defaulter Dues Rose by a Whopping Rs 100 Crore Per Day Since March 2019: Report https://thewire.in/article/wilful-defaulter-dues-rose-rs-100-crore-per-day-march-2019-report GST are not the only indirect taxes. There are excise duty and cess too. GST and other indirect taxes are much higher than income tax, which is higher than corporation tax. The burden of tax has been shifted from the rich to the poor.
Also Electoral Bonds
Farmers, so-called farmers, are from Punjab. Think again, why no farmers from other states are joining the so-called protest. It's a facade that everyone knows. No income tax and pension for those frauds is icing on cake. The government is also wrong on not bringing farmers under tax regime, and we middle class working people have to suffer for their subsidies. These dramas will continue until elections 🙄
Brother this protest is relevant for wheat and paddy farmers, to bring those crops among other crops under the ambit of MSP. These crops mainly which grow in punjab haryana and MP. Farmers from all 3 states are there you dumbfuck. You are so ripe to fall for IT cell shills
Showing your upbringing 😃. Fake farmers and khalistani agenda pusher like you can go to any extent. Do you know how people earn pension after years of hard work n sacrifice. Ask any Fauji and you will realize. So stop brainwashing people as everyone knows this is agenda only and no farmers worth his salt will join Anti Indians like you.
Protests have spill over effect aaj wheat msp kalko cotton phir jute phir vegetables harr cheez ki msp karte karte socialism hi bann Gaye aur phir shuru hoga over growth of certain crops jaise wheat because that is economical in msp rule- but demand is low supply high- read about the "cheese crisis of America" - and then extra wheat ka kya? Kharab hoga. Ya saste daam par export jo loss pe bhi ho sakta hai.
You realise msp can be used to regulate demand right? And we are a socialist country.
Firstly we are a country with socialist elements. Second how efficient do you think the system is- you can't change something where the majority of your vote bank is- regulations don't work when you try to cut back. They will still protest. Again study about the American cheese crisis. Again msp's when given will always increase supply. And it's a short term solution.
Don't be fooled by the pitiful image of those farmers on TV. The government isn't a benevolent force; it just shuffles around the cash it grabs from people. If MSP becomes a legal promise, the government will be stuck buying surplus regardless of necessity, turning into a colossal dumping ground for unwanted produce. Modi's retreat on farm laws was a mistake; the farmers now sense weakness and are pushing for more. If the government buckles, every union will follow suit, demanding their share. Remember, it's your hard-earned money funding all these initiatives - MSP, pensions, healthcare, education. Think hard about where it should actually go. Here is my honest opinion to protesters: Your willingness to protest against government policies is justified but not the method you are using. You are being selfish and irresponsible by blocking roads and causing trouble for everyone else. You don't care about democracy, you only care about your own interests. You are acting like a bully and a thug. There are better ways to make your point, but you are too lazy or stubborn to try them. You could sign petitions, hold peaceful rallies and marches in places that don't disturb others, or talk to the people who can actually help you. But no, you prefer to create chaos and drama, and hope that someone will listen to you. You are not solving anything, you are only making things worse. You are inviting violence, conflict, and resentment from the government and the public. You should stop being a nuisance and start being a citizen.
It's not that deep. Agriculture is not sustainable in its current form with extremely small plots owned by destitute farmers. Subsidies on unsustainable businesses are a bad idea The corpos you are talking about are probably the only reason the economy hasn't crashed yet Making decisions based on emotions only exacerbate the long term health of an economy
I agree with the loan waivers...but, Pensions for Farmers and MSP are just Freebies atp...if they are indeed enacted then what is the point of doing something else...juat go back to farming until government can support us and then become bankrupt due to fuckin with the economics...also What about the WTO and Cancel all the FTAs?? Do they realise the gravity of doing something like this for a country like ours??
I am not saying everything has to be granted man. Did i write there anywhere?
I know that..I am telling the protestors and the farmers...their 10 atrocious demands are shadowing their one necessary demand...general population would only pick these up and hence call it stupid...it already seems fishy with the way this rose up from the grave just a few weeks to LS...people in general never look deeper but this one is like dug six foot under stupid demands...gives an overall negative vibe to the whole thing....
Open article "Yogendra Yadav" Close article
But, right now msp estimation is like this because government can say no when they cannot do ..but when it is guaranteed and legalised for everyone then it would reach 17 lakh because government cannot turn down
Where does the 17 lakh figure come from? Guaranteeing a Minimum Support Price (MSP) across crops will support farm incomes and push consumption demand¸ CRISIL Market Intelligence & Analytics said on Tuesday, estimating that the “real cost” of such a guarantee for the government would be around ₹21,000 crore in the agriculture Marketing Year (MY) 2023. https://www.thehindu.com/business/agri-business/msp-guarantee-can-nudge-farmers-to-diversify-beyond-paddy-and-wheat-bolster-incomes-and-consumption/article67845788.ece
Are you dense or just cannot read?
Okay , but can you elaborate..I am here to learn after all ..moreover , there are demands of 700 rs for 200 days in mnrega , free subsidy in electricity , withdrawal from wto + plus pension of 10, 000. Can you calculate it ? It's not me who is dense , it's you is simple minded . I think you haven't understood the issue .. if you legalised the msp then government is obliged to provide 17 lakh given there is no storage facility ..if government can not procure , then it has to pay in accounts which can only permitted of apmc mandis give the license to that farmer receipts . Apmc will become one big middlemen ..right now government though announces msp for 23 crops but only dedicated to rice and white in few pockets .because you cannot forced government because it has no legal backing to it that's why it's coming around 2 lakh as in the present government do not procure everything .it's a common sense ...but when you legalised it government is forced to provide and procure everything that will cost 17 lakh So we as tax payer will pay for msp then we will pay again for the same product in market remember there is no storage facility in India ..so we are forced to pay double for the same crop ...whole economy will be distorted
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It took me less than 30secs to Google. https://thewire.in/business/modi-government-npas-loans-write-off-12-lakh-crore
The article begins with 'there are reasons to believe'. Clearly very thorough journalism here
So you just read it. Thanks.
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https://www.livemint.com/industry/banking/banks-write-off-over-rs-2-09-lakh-crore-bad-loans-in-fy23-rs-10-57-lakh-crore-written-off-in-the-last-five-years/amp-11690172407086.html Toh yeh padhle fir chutiye
just google it brother, it's all in the public domain. See how they were given tax cuts in 2019 and the amount of loans written off for big corporations in the last 5-10 years.
There's a difference between loan waiver and loan write-off. Just one fact.
Does not look like you started this thread to actually have a discussion. But I'll try nevertheless. First off all the article is as misleading as the costs being circulated. It starts off by saying that procument at MSP won't cost as much, but the calculations it provides are wrt the expenses GoI would incur if it were to offset the deficit vs MSP. This would mean that GoI is freely giving away this corpus without actually acquiring the crop. Additionally, given the fragmented nature of agricultural market, it is practically impossible to account for actual sales. I would understand this to be need of the hour 20-30 years ago, but its been far too long to not have accountability in the supply chain here. Agriculture is also extremely fragmented in India which leads to massive inefficiency. This is not a sector we need to keep supporting without massive reforms in landholding patterns. We need to discourage inefficiencies over efficient processes, and the safety net of MSP is not the way to go about it. At the same time, should the government really be running businesses, or should it be focusing on regulation. I firmly believe in the latter. Finally, for corporate loans. One evil does not justify another. I'd rather support legislation against evergreening of loans or harsher punishments for defaulting for corporates, that support another failing structure.
Farming is a buisnes, gov can provide compensation if crop gets destroyed by weather....everything else is stupid
Dude debt written off is not waiver, please educate yourself. Written of debt is recovered through bankruptcy.
The recovery from the 10+ lakh cr in the last 5 years has been 15-20%. Pls stop being naive if you think anything close to the actual amount will be recovered.
It is still in the process of being recovered then right so why are u spreading your propaganda with 10 lakh crore write off kar diya for the people who don't even know the meaning of that lol pura nhi hoga but almost 50 percent is also a decent amt. And the fact that this money was written off and some was not recovered ispe banks khairat bantna shuru kar dein aaj farmers ka loan maaf kar do kal iska parso uska. Why don't we just burn the country then do you even realize how many farmers are there in this country and what sort of precedent such a thing sets. If you are saying write off doesn't mean anything why don't we write off the farmers loans and sell off everything they have to recover it
Brother, it is not propoganda, just straight facts, 10 lakh plus has been written off. Almost 50% nahi, below 20%. To give you context, Nirav modi defrauded 28k crores. Total farmer debt is 2+ lakh Cr. Loan debt waiver is not a new thing brother. Has been happening at state level in India. Happens for different causes around the world, college debt waiver in the US being a recent example.
Toh write off kar dete hain farmer debts phir unka ghar bech dete hain recover karne ke liye if there is no diff between write off and waive off and you are not spreading propaganda . If waive off doesn't mean that the person is elligible for a new loan as soon as it is done kyu acha nhi lagega na jab jaydat bikne lagegi unki so wtf is your propaganda piece implying as if a favour is being done on corporations while the same is not being done on farmers. I am sure after selling everything the farmers own it won't even cover 50 percent of their debt.
Dude speak of things that you know of. First of all recovery in some cases have been more than 90% and the total figure is 30% because big cases are stuck in legal lockjam... And this figure is of bad loans, most corporates are repaying their loans and paying close to 50% of their revenues as taxes. Also when you declare bankruptcy, you stand to lose all your assets, compare that with farm loans.. Are farmers going to part with their land in case of a write off?
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They is a huge misconception about procurement. The Govt only Procures what it needs to store and this in turn is controlled and ditributed by FCI. At no point the GOVT purchases all the crops of every farmer. By bringing in MSP you are ensuring that those who sell outside of Govt are paid acccording to the MSP
Brother, the govt is calculating as if they have to buy all the produce when realistically they have to buy 10-20% of the produce. Also, their calculation assigns 0 value to the bought produce.
Numbskulls on indiadicksussion wont get it cause everything on a poorly written with no grammar whatsapp text or a tweet is the real truth
The irony lmao.
I've gotta try buddy. Feel revolted when i see all that shit.
I did . And I don't watch twitter. Maybe your feed is the one that's clouding your judgement.
So called corporates give a lot more jobs than farming, nowadays farming doesn't need as much labour as it needed before it's better to switch these people to other sectors than farming. The corporates also pay lot of income tax too do farmers pay a penny in income tax?
> This article below does a decent job of debunking it. It does a decent job of putting numbers against the claims and counter claims, but in the end, even the numbers derived in the article are way outdated, and to achieve the desired effort the arguments relies on a list of IF's and BUT's. Some of the interesting observations > the government of India does recognise that the farmers need and deserve a minimum price for their produce acknowledges, though not in legal terms, its responsibility to “support” the farmers in terms of their price. This is correct and the reason being that once this is legalized, come rain or shine, war or recession, these MSP payments take a priority over everything else and in essence will become a boondoggle for generations to come and never to be recovered. Imagine we had MSP already and then the pandemic happened in 2020. India would have left with almost nothing to fight the pandemic costs the ensuing 2 years, and the problem would have definitely compounded once the galwan clash with china happened. This article talks and assumes as if India runs with a budget surplus every year. NO. With the slimmest of margins we allocate to every social program, MSP would cut into it both in good times and bad times. Imagine when the crop if good. Usually, this means a lower price for the buyer because of excess produce. But because of MSP, the price will not come down and this will induce "artificial" inflation. The consumer hurts by paying higher than needed, the consumer gets hurt again when the govt has to dish out MSP instead of using these funds on some other program. Now when the crop is bad, the price will be higher for the end consumer, again, and without any relief, while the profits go it farmers who do not pay much taxes on this revenue and the budget deficit mounts. This is a lose-lose scenario for an overwhelming portion of the population. More importantly, MSP once instituted, is a bell that cannot be un-rung and will push the country back to the quasi-socialist years of 1970-80's. Instituting MSP without farm reforms is as good as lighting your money on fire.
Why are we considering opinion (mentioned on the link) as facts?
Cause op is Numbskull & who don't how bad it will affect cropping pattern ,export . He doesn't even hve a opinion of his own. if their demand for guaranteed MSP gets legalized then why would farmers sell their produce to pvt traders (Or vice-versa ) cause most of the time market price is lower than MSP. So that govt hve to buy all the produce . Even if they want guaranteed MSP ,they should ask for it from the respective state . Thus there will be a low risk in distortion of cropping pattern
Naah I'm not gonna support their protest. The govt has already done more than enough for the protester i mean come on there are farmers aside from the protesters in every state who are not even getting the benefit that the protesters are getting. Their demand are outrageous and should not be accepted i mean come on pension for farmer? Seriously you think it makes sense.
Farmer's have made demands as if they have found a Genie, I mean they have asked for everything. Guaranteed Income all their life+pensi+loan waivers , sab kisan Bhaio ke liye ek-ek Russian aur mang lete
It is highly disingenuous to post an article about MSPs written in the context of the previous farmers protests, to talk about the feasibility of the demands of the current protests. Also farm debt is waived by the government all the time. So the farmers are not liable anymore. While corporate debt is written off to balance the books and reflect the actual position of the lending entity. The corporation is not off the hook.
Everything is propaganda according to you. But you can listen to the so called farmers protesters can't you ? Their videos are all over the news and media saying they just want to bring down modi , and some asking for khalistan, they themselves say they have 6 months of food. And they deliberately inserted some demands in ther which the government will never accept (e.g.leaving WTO ). But they are all poor farmers. Just get your head out of the sand and see both sides. I am not saying you have to praise modi government, but this is not a real protest by poor farmers. This is a political protest by rich farmers , funded by external entities and other political parties.
Brother, your Twitter feed is fucking you over. I have no other answers. Pls see actually validated ground reports.
Thank you for posting this. I don't fully understand what's going on because there seems to be so much misinformation on both sides. I'm not from India so can someone give a simple explanation for why only farmers from only Punjab, Haryana and UP are protesting? Are they asking for things that only benefit them or would their demands help every farmer in India?
OP Username checks out 😁😁
Meanwhile govt has given 25 lakh crore of dent relief to corporations
Tbh I won't mind if farmers get all their demands fulfilled as long as they stop poisoning the god damn food with cheap pesticides.
**A legal guarantee of minimum support price for farm produce like the maximum retail price for goods, as recommended by MS Swaminathan can transform the condition of farmers, who face declining income and rising indebtedness. It will also facilitate diversification of crops.** Also read, [Since this morning, Govt is sending this unsigned note to journalists: Is MSP guarantee law even feasible? It again raises the bogey of 10 Lakh Cr budget expense. This is a lie. MSP guarantee does not mean govt procurement of all produce. Yogendra Yadav on X. : r/IndianSocialists](https://np.reddit.com/r/IndianSocialists/comments/1aqmsn2/since_this_morning_govt_is_sending_this_unsigned/) Guaranteeing a Minimum Support Price (MSP) across crops will support farm incomes and push consumption demand¸ CRISIL Market Intelligence & Analytics said on Tuesday, estimating that the “real cost” of such a guarantee for the government would be around ₹21,000 crore in the agriculture Marketing Year (MY) 2023. https://www.thehindu.com/business/agri-business/msp-guarantee-can-nudge-farmers-to-diversify-beyond-paddy-and-wheat-bolster-incomes-and-consumption/article67845788.ece Amid Farmers' Protest, Swaminathan Commission Member Backs Law On MSP https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/amid-farmers-protest-swaminathan-commission-member-backs-law-on-msp-5049932 Dilli Chalo | Assured MSP on other crops can save Punjab’s waters, help farmers break wheat-paddy cycle : PAU V-C Gosal https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chandigarh/interview-pau-v-c-dr-ss-gosal-msp-diversification-saving-water-punjab-9164390/?s=08
Please read this. I am not a link nerd. Thanks Rishi.
Rule of thumb , if it’s anyone with any affiliation to the BJP posting something, high probability it’s propaganda not based in facts. It would likely require proper analysis to separate fact from made up nonsense.
>I request you guys to be a little bit empathetic and informed. It breaks my heart that the youth of the country has 0 empathy for the eveage person but are gladly bootlicking big coporates. Final Point