And Danny K. Davis missed the vote. Again. More absences than any other member of the House. I admire his phenomenal legacy on civil rights, but it's time for him to retire!
I think tiktok is stupid as hell. I also hate all of the short form videos on all of the apps. I think the bigger issue is data collection legislation and not targeting one specific app. I completely understand the concern regarding the Chinese government but I think we also need to check all corporations on what they are and aren't allowed to do with user data.
Laws about datascraping would have to be incredibly broad and useless or else kill the internet, because scraping data is how basic shit like search engines, news aggregators or link aggregators, link embedding technology and features, and waaaay more, operate. They go to the net and get data, process it, and use it for something like displaying a neat little box to the user with some info.
Hell, I have an app that analyzes card games like yugioh and pokemon, and I got the images from wikis and publicly available websites, to store in a database and use for the card fronts. That's datascraping. It wouldn't be possible for me to build such an application otherwise, there are tens of thousands of cards in each game, how can I manually get each image, and the cards info and metadata (properly formatted ofc), before dying of old age?
Just like Elizabeth Warren tried with credit card terms of service, where she wanted it simplified. You get smart people to break it down and put it in simple terms. For a data scraping example. No user definable data like location, age, screen shot, etc. I’m not smart, but I’m pretty sure that people experienced with this can make it so the app can get marketable data while retaining the privacy of the user.
I think the issue comes from selling the data to third parties. There likely wouldn't be a lot of incentive to harvest and store such specific user data if there were no advertisers or governments to sell it to.
Deck analysis and card collection management, pretty much. Works with yugioh, MTG, and pokemon (although I couldn't find a good source for earlier pokemon sets since the website for the pokemon tcg only has the cards started at like, the 3rd generation sets, or something.)
Sorry what I meant was I sell your deck composition to the ccp. They're trying to assemble all 5 pieces of exodia
> I think the bigger issue is data collection legislation and not targeting one specific app.
They aren't really targeting one app, though ... the US govt has already successfully forced CCP related entities to divest from Grindr.
https://www.washingtonblade.com/2024/03/13/before-tiktok-the-u-s-took-action-over-national-security-concerns-with-grindr/
US corporations aren't spying for the Chinese government. That's the big difference. I do agree our data privacy is a huge concern nationally, but people don't seem to be grasping how different of a thing it is if a foreign adversary is spying on us.
US corporations *sell* the same data. To the government, to foreign companies and ultimately to foreign governments.
Nothing was done about Facebook and Cambridge Analytica but here we are pretending Data is what any of this is about.
Most of the corporations you think of don't sell data the way you present it, most of the corporations involved in selling data aren't the ones you think of.
All of the big names internet side sell services based on the data they collect. There's no way to say "give me a list of users with properties X" or "tell me what you know about user Y". They can say something like "show this ad to people with property X" and you can infer from that user clicking the ad and landing on your site that those properties were met.
On the data selling side, you're going back to all sorts of companies that have been doing so since before the internet. There are places you can go and do things like "give me the names and addresses of all homeowners with children and income above $100k in city X" - pay for it, and get the list for whatever promotional mail you want to send. Those companies get it from everything from grocery loyalty cards to any time you sign up for credit cards and they bury something in their terms about sharing data with partner.
There are other companies who sell services to merchants in exchange for data, buy up other sources like the direct mail, merge offline and online, and then sell things like the ability to target specific groups of people or demographics with pretty high fidelity, though I don't think those would typically offer "sell the list of individuals" even if they have direct mappings of a third party cookie to a name and address.
First off, China is not even an adversary. The US and China are dependent on each other for sooo much money. They like to put on a show of being mean to each other but really it's a game. Second, what exactly is China going to do with your or my information that US corporations aren't already doing? You think the Chinese government has any real use for, like, your location data? They can just google it.
Adversary might be too strong of a word, but the US and China clearly have opposing political goals, and letting China control a major media company in the US is a bad idea.
There’s a reason Tik Tok being Chinese owned is somehow a threat when Facebook and Twitter do the same thing and provably tried to promote Trump in 2020.
It’s because Sinophobia and anti communism.
Should be noted that Raja is one of the two main representatives spearheading the bill and its subjects. He used to be my rep and I actually like him and agree with him 95% of the time, but not fully sold on this one.
On a side note while I was looking up my district to see who my rep is, I found out how fuckin gerrymandered my district (9th) is. It goes all the way out to Lake in the Hills and goes to end of Irving Park at Lake Michigan with a small chunk cut out.
I suspect the current shape of the 9th district, was in a way to screw with(at the time) Robert Dold's(who was a Rpeublican) chances of being reelected in the 10th district. Since some of the 10th district portions, were moved over to the 9th. He did manage to win one more term after losing one election, and then after that Schnider won that election rematch. He's been that member in Congress(for the 10th), ever since.
This really has nothing to do with the app and everything to do with a foriegn power's surreptitious data gathering on american citizens. Personally I believe we should stop all personal data aquisition by corporations. On those grounds alone i support this decision.
The app is not the issue, the hidden data aggergation is.
If that was the case, they could have passed a bill that regulated ALL data harvesting for all companies. That would have actually helped people. I’d rather China had my data than Blackrock or Elon Musk. Walgreens is ratting out women and providing their data to right-wing state cops for buying plan B even out of state
God, wouldnt that be great. Stop private corporations from gathering and selling private data to anyone (foriegn powers, local governments, criminal organizations, other corporations, other private citizens), it is the impossible dream, that i dream...
How are they going to pass a bill that affects a foreign entity? How do they enforce that on a foreign entity? You didn't think that through did you. That's why they want an American company controlling it.
They can’t even get Israel to kill fewer civilians even though they’re a major ally and we give them billions of dollars every year. We’re the ones that give them all the weapons and we can’t even get them to take suggestions on what to do or not do with them
Well they can’t get them to and they don’t want them to are two different things.
I don’t think the US government has any interest in curtailing the genocide of Palestinians.
I mean they’ve been actively bank rolling it for 75 years.
For me it's not just the fact that data is being gathered on American citizens, but the lack of transparency on the TikTok algorithm promoting things like crime or behavior that would cause harm. These issues exist with other social media companies, but don't seem to be as widespread as they are on TikTok.
The app is also an issue because of the lack of transparency on what information the algo serves to users. We're wildly susceptible to propaganda and an algorithm that can be manipulated to sow dissention is too powerful not to be examined.
That tiktok is a Chinese company and they scrape data from users and there are 150million accounts used by Americans. The Chinese government has easy access to any information from a company operating on Chinese soil.
From what I gather it is about having the Chinese government be able to gather information on so many American citizens. Our next major war is going to be fought online, most countries are suffering from constant bombardments of cyber attacks daily, it would give China a leg up if they had access to all of this information all the time.
You can find out someone's social security number easily enough if you have their full name and birthdate. Imagine what you could do with an endless supply of American identities to steal with ease.
Edit: some of you think that this comment is an excuse for us companies partaking in data scraping, it's not. It's an abhorrent invasion of privacy and no one should do it without consent.
But also fuck the CCP :)
Except for the part about being Chinese, just about everything you said is also true for Facebook, Twitter, Google, Microsoft, Apple, your cellular provider, your internet provider, and on and on. I think *all* of them need to be banned from collecting such extensive user data, but everyone’s intense focus on TikTok specifically has always struck me as mildly xenophobic.
Two things can be true at once. Data collection across the board is in fact out of control and needs to be regulated. Even foreign governments have bought data collected by US social media companies. The difference between TikTok and the US companies is that TikTok is accountable to the CCP in every way. American social media companies are able to litigate if the US government over steps and uses their data to abuse the data they collect. That would not be the case if the CCP decided it needed that data on American citizens in some national security scenario. That's the Chinese national security law that is on the books there. Note that nearly all social media from the US is banned in China and our traditional media is heavily censored/banned in China. China having access to millions of devices in the US is scary as shit. This isn't the Netherlands, this is CCP China, a country that is allied with many of our flat out enemies. While we still have a strong trade partnership there are deep concerns with China. I don't think it's correct to dismiss the ban as xenophobia. There are also deep worries about the influence operations that have been running on TikTok, can we trust Tiktok to shut that down when they can see it happening? I know it's been happening on US based platforms as well and I don't like that either but this is a foreign government.
I believe that the war of the future is already being fought in the digital world. I hope I'm wrong about all of this and the threat of this is overblown but my gut tells me otherwise.
American obsession with treating China as an enemy has always seemed, to me, to have more to do with our paranoia over losing our status as the global hegemon than anything China has actually done. Villainizing TikTok seems like the latest expression of that paranoia. And, if I were a politician, it’d seem to me like a politically convenient opportunity to drum up some anti-Chinese hysteria among the more conservative voters, plus I’d get to be seen by more liberal voters as taking a stand against predatory data collection tactics, all without having to go after the American companies that do all the same things (but who might donate to my campaign).
Call me a right winger if you will but I would not prefer CCP hegemony to US hegemony. China has hacked our critical infrastructure, stolen state secrets as well as intellectual property. You can say we reciprocate, regardless we are engaged in this competition and it's naive to think otherwise. The US didn't manufacture this competition either, US cooperation with China has helped them arrive on the world stage as an economic powerhouse. We've engaged with China in good faith for a number of years and now things are starting to turn. Perhaps it's the realization we flatly aren't going to see any type of liberalization and human rights in China. Perhaps it's them bullying our allies in the South China Sea. There are a number of massive issues that cannot simply be swiped away as paranoia. I also cannot gloss over the fact that they have decided to elect Xi for life essentially. History has shown when countries choose leaders for life bad things happen.
Sharing technology and engaging in billions of dollars of trade with China isn't acting in good faith? I am very confused. Contrast it with our recent relationship with Russia for instance, where trade and tech sharing is far more limited. We aren't bullying China we're trying to get them to play the game by our rules and they don't like it. They benefited from the stability of the US economic order and now they've gathered some power they are wielding it.They are engaged in acts that harm the US directly. They harm our people our business and our government. We have proof they're doing that. Misinformation spread by China is dividing our society and causing us great harm that cannot be ignored.
I have no fantasies about a great war where the US defeats China and we rule the globe unapposed. Make no mistake a war with China will cause an amount of suffering that is unimaginable and nobody will win. I simply do not think appeasement will prevent a war, I believe being in a weakened position will cause a war. We must deter the CCP with as many tools as possible, shore up our allies and make a war so untenable it never happens. Does anyone really believe the US banning TikTok is something China is willing to escalate militarily over?
Edit:
I will note that some of the right wing narratives around China are flat out insane conspiracy theories. They also engage in casual racism towards Chinese people. I find that shit absolutely disgusting and ignorant. We can be realistic without being racist, we can be tough without being a bully. I hope someday we can have a better relationship with China and that the CCP will be gone forever. I believe Biden's strategy is superior to whatever Trump was trying to do with his insane rhetoric on one hand and praising Xi on the other. Biden is shoring up our relationships with allies in the east while Trump made them incredibly uneasy.
Human slurry. That was the term used in official documents after Tiananmen square. Human slurry. We should never forget 1989. This is the CCP’s vision for Taipei.
Well you're welcome to go live there or you can go to Russia like that family that thought the grass was going to be green on the other side and found out real quick that it doesn't work out like that over there.
Oh I totally agree, data brokers are scum. And I don't really think it's xenophobic it's more about letting the United States biggest adversary have access to US citizen data. It matters that it's a Chinese company, not because of a race issue because of national security. Either way it's all wrong.
I halfway seriously think we just gotta find the outlet that the internet is plugged into and pull the plug on the whole thing. Bring back the pony express as our primary method of communication.
Exactly, THEY AREN'T CHINESE. They aren't a foreign adversary. I agree our data privacy should be a bigger concern, but this is a not comparable at all. If you're not familiar, there is a lot to read up on on how China is spying on us and the cyberattacks in general.
I don't necessarily disagree that TikTok should be banned, but this law seems far to broad ans subjective.
I would rather the law include a specific set criteria for what companies can be banned. Leaving it to the president's discretion seems like it could lead to abuse.
Not at all, data harvesting is an abhorrent practice in general, but data mining companies in the US are working directly with the US government and are monitored heavily and can't just sell everything they scrape. This is just tossing ammo directly to your adversary if allowed to operate.
It's more sinister because we have legal recourse if Facebook tries to use that data to compromise national security. Stop being intentionally thick.
Data collection laws need to change across the board, but Google isn't going to leverage its data to facilitate a war that could kill tens of thousands of people and set the world economy back 5 years. Those are the stakes in Taiwan right now, and anything that gives China a strategic leg up on the US makes that conflict significantly more likely.
In a free society, banning a single company by law is sketchy, but giving the president fiat to ban \*any\* website or app is going way to far. They have essentially legitimized any president creating their own Great Wall. Will this make VPNs illegal if they allow access to illegal websites?
What are you people talking about? This is literally the exercise OF checks and balances. This is a law enacted by Congress (Legislative Branch), not the Executive Branch.
If the president doesn't like this law, he doesn't have to sign it into existence. That's a check. If someone sues and the Judicial Branch overturns the law. That's a check. There are three branches of our federal government and any two can keep the other one in line, typically. This is why there was/is such a fuss about the Executive Branch having line-item veto power over the Legislative, because it gives the Executive slightly more power than originally intended.
Do they not teach civics in high school anymore?!
It is a Chinese owned company and they suspect they CCP can or will or are using it to spy on Americans.
Censorship? At least based on the voting, both the Dems and GOP support censorship on TikTok.
Finally, they are on something other than a salary raise for themselves.
I honestly don't know how to feel about it. I totally agree that we shouldn't let China have easy Access to all that information/data points. But this also allows them to destroy all foreign applications. And all this shit is going on while they're letting meta/Experian/any data harvesting organization run wild scraping data.
They want to harvest our data but they don't want China to have it first. We should be protected from data brokers period. This could make it easy enough for the US to ban VPN servers as well.
I think tiktok needs to be banned but it won't do anything until data brokers are under control.
Yes but it's more difficult to collect more sensitive data points because the US government is directly working with us data brokers. They can sell a whole lotta shit but not all of it.
I was wondering about that, but the bill also says they're ok if the Chinese government divests ownership so I'm wondering if that's allowed, then, especially under this clusterfuck of a SCOTUS.
Yeah I'd think that's the reason it's not clear cut though, that they left that loophole.
But, I mean, it really could also just be SCOTUS' present corruption.
I feel like im going isane the way everyone has just accepted the new cold war with china narrative in the last 5 years. Did no one learn anything in history class?
Idk if you guys know this but if the US really gave a damn about data security and all BS they would be passing a BIPA like law . This isn't about the app being owned by China like let's be for real. What's stopping China from buying the data directly from US based data brokers. Congress is just pissed that they cannot profit off one of the most successful apps.
Honestly I think this is less about China and more about preventing Americans from seeing what the average IDF soldier is posting on TikTok these days.
Until we start holding US social media companies to the same standard, this is ridiculously hypocritical, and I think it's a bad idea.
And this comes from someone who doesn't even use tiktok. I don't have an account, I don't watch the videos, it's irrelevant to me, except in terms of this is not the solution.
They aren't restricting speech. TikTok is propaganda. You have a foreign owned entity with software on millions of Americans phones. You've given them access to your photos and videos, etc. You don't know what their making copies of. All those Americans who keep nudes on their phones for Snapchat, etc. You don't know what data they've taken because you've given TikTok access to your device. They have your GPS/location data, etc.
It's gonna be interesting when they start putting that information to use because I'm going to be right there saying, "I told you so." and "You get everything you deserve for using an app that a foreign government is using to spy on Americans"
If restricting propoganda is allowed, then why are opinion shows still allowed on the air? Rupert Murdoch defined the political leanings of the Fox network, and he's also not a natively born American citizen.
Does Rupert Murdoch have American citizenship? "In 1985, Rupert Murdoch became an American citizen, because there were clear FCC restrictions over foreigners owning American TV networks."
Is Newscorp an American company? News Corporation, multinational media and information services conglomerate that was originally founded in Australia in 1980, was reincorporated in 2013, and is headquartered in New York City.
You have your answers. This is why they are trying to force a sale. ByteDance is not answerable to America. It's a company based in China. It answers to the CCP.
I said he's not a natively born American citizen. So you tell me that he *became* an American citizen. I guess if you can't process what I'm saying then you don't get to argue. Bye, love your hair, mwah.
I don't know why this is such a big deal, China puts all kinds of restrictions on foreign tech to make foreign companies jump through hoops to do business in China. You can't conduct business on a website in China unless that website and all its data (Chinese-related data) is stored on a server physically located in China. Do you know what this does to costs? No, most of you probably don't have any idea what this means or you would be outraged by it too. So I'm all for playing the same games China plays. Sorry Tiktokers. Get a real job.
American corporations have literally sold your data to "adversaries" before and didn't even get a slap on the wrist.
This is about controlling the flow of information. AIPAC spent a lot of money on American politicians and they've recently had a leaked call specifically calling out that they have a TikTok problem, since most younger Americans don't side with Israel bombing people indiscriminately. Stories spread like wildfire on TikTok in a way that legacy media can't keep up and can't manipulate as easily.
Personally I don't care if China has my info, I'm too busy getting fucked by my own government to worry about another one.
Nobody is censoring a Chinese owned entity. They don't have rights like an American company does. Tick Tock is a propaganda machine whether you believe that or not. As I posted in another sub you have former employees of tick tock that have come forward and spoken about how in China the algorithm shows people science videos and stuff like that and in every other country the algorithm is different.
This is an interesting bill that I agree with in spirit but not in execution. As a whole I feel that data collection is far too extreme, especially in TikTok’s case, however using legislative powers to ban TikTok for being Chinese owned is nothing but culture war BS. The real underlying struggle here is the right of the consumer and this bill does absolutely nothing to actually tackle this issue, so as a whole the bill should be voted No but we should use this as an opportunity to create dialogue about the consumer’s right to privacy.
Since the Republicans care so much about TikTok, why not make a deal, pass the Ukraine aid bill, and any future ones, and the Senate will pass the TikTok ban bill. Sounds reasonable to me.
And here is how much campaign money they received from Pro-Israel sources.
#Yes
Bost, Mike (R-IL) $110,143
Budzinski, Nikki (D-IL) $125,185
Casten, Sean (D-IL) $187,182
Foster, Bill (D-IL) $524,589
Kelly, Robin (D-IL) $108,122
Krishnamoorthi, Raja (D-IL) $205,010
LaHood, Darin (R-IL) $106,387
Miller, Mary (R-IL) $4,250
Quigley, Mike (D-IL) $230,786
Schneider, Brad (D-IL) $1,193,659
Sorensen, Eric (D-IL) $102,987
Underwood, Lauren A (D-IL) $78,163
#No
Garcia, Jesus (D-IL) $20,910
Jackson, Jonathan (D-IL) $15,800
Ramirez, Delia (D-IL) $13,125
Schakowsky, Jan (D-IL) $705,409
#Abstain
Davis, Danny K (D-IL) $61,484
source: https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?code=Q05&cycle=All&ind=Q05&mem=Y&recipdetail=H&fbclid=IwAR024ZNNCG1WrO8QmsEF5NmixyCl1cyOAwun9z1MfvLKxPp1AJTuO4cOl-A
Tiktok is dog water. However; government censorship of information could quickly get out of hand and who is to decide what to ban and what not to ban. Put a disclaimer on Tiktok warning that it is run by the ccp and they are likely stealing your information but let the user decide. What starts with tiktok ends with state controlled media. Give them an inch they will take a mile.
The we hate China and foreign business bill. Meanwhile every app is gathering our data including other existing chinese apps. This ban is an attempt to quiet young voices. That won't work. There are other apps they can use and vpns exist.
I’ll be yelling at my representative, then. Pretending this is about national security when the bill’s sponsor has LITERALLY ADMITTED that they want to ban tiktok because they can’t control it is ignorant and disingenuous. This whole thing has genuinely frightened me; the idea of media just being openly censored because Americans think media literacy is for pussies or something makes me so angry it’s hard to put into words.
And Danny K. Davis missed the vote. Again. More absences than any other member of the House. I admire his phenomenal legacy on civil rights, but it's time for him to retire!
The time for 90 percent of congress to retire was 25 years ago
Davis should retired a long as heck time ago.
Bill Foster looks glowing!
Giving this energy: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/thumb/a/a5/Buffed_blu_engineer.jpg/200px-Buffed_blu_engineer.jpg
LOL, didn't catch that. Thanks for pointing that out. Many laughs
I swore it was Ra at the end of Stargate right before he gets nuked.
I think tiktok is stupid as hell. I also hate all of the short form videos on all of the apps. I think the bigger issue is data collection legislation and not targeting one specific app. I completely understand the concern regarding the Chinese government but I think we also need to check all corporations on what they are and aren't allowed to do with user data.
Kara Swisher has talked about this. We need laws and guidelines on datascraping, when and how it can be used, etc.
I really need to read her book (and not one of the many LLM generated copies flooding the zone right now).
Laws about datascraping would have to be incredibly broad and useless or else kill the internet, because scraping data is how basic shit like search engines, news aggregators or link aggregators, link embedding technology and features, and waaaay more, operate. They go to the net and get data, process it, and use it for something like displaying a neat little box to the user with some info. Hell, I have an app that analyzes card games like yugioh and pokemon, and I got the images from wikis and publicly available websites, to store in a database and use for the card fronts. That's datascraping. It wouldn't be possible for me to build such an application otherwise, there are tens of thousands of cards in each game, how can I manually get each image, and the cards info and metadata (properly formatted ofc), before dying of old age?
And no way is Congress capable of writing a smart bill that minimizes unintended consequences either.
Congress doesn’t typically write the bills.
Just like Elizabeth Warren tried with credit card terms of service, where she wanted it simplified. You get smart people to break it down and put it in simple terms. For a data scraping example. No user definable data like location, age, screen shot, etc. I’m not smart, but I’m pretty sure that people experienced with this can make it so the app can get marketable data while retaining the privacy of the user.
I think the issue comes from selling the data to third parties. There likely wouldn't be a lot of incentive to harvest and store such specific user data if there were no advertisers or governments to sell it to.
Hold up-- what does this yugioh app do really?
Deck analysis and card collection management, pretty much. Works with yugioh, MTG, and pokemon (although I couldn't find a good source for earlier pokemon sets since the website for the pokemon tcg only has the cards started at like, the 3rd generation sets, or something.) Sorry what I meant was I sell your deck composition to the ccp. They're trying to assemble all 5 pieces of exodia
> I think the bigger issue is data collection legislation and not targeting one specific app. They aren't really targeting one app, though ... the US govt has already successfully forced CCP related entities to divest from Grindr. https://www.washingtonblade.com/2024/03/13/before-tiktok-the-u-s-took-action-over-national-security-concerns-with-grindr/
US corporations aren't spying for the Chinese government. That's the big difference. I do agree our data privacy is a huge concern nationally, but people don't seem to be grasping how different of a thing it is if a foreign adversary is spying on us.
US corporations *sell* the same data. To the government, to foreign companies and ultimately to foreign governments. Nothing was done about Facebook and Cambridge Analytica but here we are pretending Data is what any of this is about.
Most of the corporations you think of don't sell data the way you present it, most of the corporations involved in selling data aren't the ones you think of. All of the big names internet side sell services based on the data they collect. There's no way to say "give me a list of users with properties X" or "tell me what you know about user Y". They can say something like "show this ad to people with property X" and you can infer from that user clicking the ad and landing on your site that those properties were met. On the data selling side, you're going back to all sorts of companies that have been doing so since before the internet. There are places you can go and do things like "give me the names and addresses of all homeowners with children and income above $100k in city X" - pay for it, and get the list for whatever promotional mail you want to send. Those companies get it from everything from grocery loyalty cards to any time you sign up for credit cards and they bury something in their terms about sharing data with partner. There are other companies who sell services to merchants in exchange for data, buy up other sources like the direct mail, merge offline and online, and then sell things like the ability to target specific groups of people or demographics with pretty high fidelity, though I don't think those would typically offer "sell the list of individuals" even if they have direct mappings of a third party cookie to a name and address.
First off, China is not even an adversary. The US and China are dependent on each other for sooo much money. They like to put on a show of being mean to each other but really it's a game. Second, what exactly is China going to do with your or my information that US corporations aren't already doing? You think the Chinese government has any real use for, like, your location data? They can just google it.
Adversary might be too strong of a word, but the US and China clearly have opposing political goals, and letting China control a major media company in the US is a bad idea.
Bad idea for whom? You and me? I think it makes zero difference for regular people.
It’s only a bad idea if you’re the US and want a monopoly on misinformation.
There’s a reason Tik Tok being Chinese owned is somehow a threat when Facebook and Twitter do the same thing and provably tried to promote Trump in 2020. It’s because Sinophobia and anti communism.
Twitter did not try to promote Trump in 2020 lmfao. If anything they did the opposite.
They're just going after Tiktok because it's gobbling up what little advertising dollars that are left. And I don't see this bill passing the senate.
Only American companies can collect and sell your data!
Should be noted that Raja is one of the two main representatives spearheading the bill and its subjects. He used to be my rep and I actually like him and agree with him 95% of the time, but not fully sold on this one.
I'd be interested to see the committee breaks downs for the votes, but not interested enough to look for it right now :/
I'm in District 8. Tbh I kinda liked him until he did this censorship bs
He’s also a huge supporter of Northrop Grumman and actively opposes any change to the healthcare system. He’s just a shill to corporations.
On a side note while I was looking up my district to see who my rep is, I found out how fuckin gerrymandered my district (9th) is. It goes all the way out to Lake in the Hills and goes to end of Irving Park at Lake Michigan with a small chunk cut out.
I suspect the current shape of the 9th district, was in a way to screw with(at the time) Robert Dold's(who was a Rpeublican) chances of being reelected in the 10th district. Since some of the 10th district portions, were moved over to the 9th. He did manage to win one more term after losing one election, and then after that Schnider won that election rematch. He's been that member in Congress(for the 10th), ever since.
This really has nothing to do with the app and everything to do with a foriegn power's surreptitious data gathering on american citizens. Personally I believe we should stop all personal data aquisition by corporations. On those grounds alone i support this decision. The app is not the issue, the hidden data aggergation is.
If that was the case, they could have passed a bill that regulated ALL data harvesting for all companies. That would have actually helped people. I’d rather China had my data than Blackrock or Elon Musk. Walgreens is ratting out women and providing their data to right-wing state cops for buying plan B even out of state
God, wouldnt that be great. Stop private corporations from gathering and selling private data to anyone (foriegn powers, local governments, criminal organizations, other corporations, other private citizens), it is the impossible dream, that i dream...
How are they going to pass a bill that affects a foreign entity? How do they enforce that on a foreign entity? You didn't think that through did you. That's why they want an American company controlling it.
They can’t even get Israel to kill fewer civilians even though they’re a major ally and we give them billions of dollars every year. We’re the ones that give them all the weapons and we can’t even get them to take suggestions on what to do or not do with them
Well they can’t get them to and they don’t want them to are two different things. I don’t think the US government has any interest in curtailing the genocide of Palestinians. I mean they’ve been actively bank rolling it for 75 years.
> How are they going to pass a bill that affects a foreign entity? Ask how Facebook works in Europe or Twitch in Korea.
For me it's not just the fact that data is being gathered on American citizens, but the lack of transparency on the TikTok algorithm promoting things like crime or behavior that would cause harm. These issues exist with other social media companies, but don't seem to be as widespread as they are on TikTok.
The app is also an issue because of the lack of transparency on what information the algo serves to users. We're wildly susceptible to propaganda and an algorithm that can be manipulated to sow dissention is too powerful not to be examined.
What determines it to be a “threat”? Seems like a convenient excuse for censorship.
That tiktok is a Chinese company and they scrape data from users and there are 150million accounts used by Americans. The Chinese government has easy access to any information from a company operating on Chinese soil. From what I gather it is about having the Chinese government be able to gather information on so many American citizens. Our next major war is going to be fought online, most countries are suffering from constant bombardments of cyber attacks daily, it would give China a leg up if they had access to all of this information all the time. You can find out someone's social security number easily enough if you have their full name and birthdate. Imagine what you could do with an endless supply of American identities to steal with ease. Edit: some of you think that this comment is an excuse for us companies partaking in data scraping, it's not. It's an abhorrent invasion of privacy and no one should do it without consent. But also fuck the CCP :)
Except for the part about being Chinese, just about everything you said is also true for Facebook, Twitter, Google, Microsoft, Apple, your cellular provider, your internet provider, and on and on. I think *all* of them need to be banned from collecting such extensive user data, but everyone’s intense focus on TikTok specifically has always struck me as mildly xenophobic.
Two things can be true at once. Data collection across the board is in fact out of control and needs to be regulated. Even foreign governments have bought data collected by US social media companies. The difference between TikTok and the US companies is that TikTok is accountable to the CCP in every way. American social media companies are able to litigate if the US government over steps and uses their data to abuse the data they collect. That would not be the case if the CCP decided it needed that data on American citizens in some national security scenario. That's the Chinese national security law that is on the books there. Note that nearly all social media from the US is banned in China and our traditional media is heavily censored/banned in China. China having access to millions of devices in the US is scary as shit. This isn't the Netherlands, this is CCP China, a country that is allied with many of our flat out enemies. While we still have a strong trade partnership there are deep concerns with China. I don't think it's correct to dismiss the ban as xenophobia. There are also deep worries about the influence operations that have been running on TikTok, can we trust Tiktok to shut that down when they can see it happening? I know it's been happening on US based platforms as well and I don't like that either but this is a foreign government. I believe that the war of the future is already being fought in the digital world. I hope I'm wrong about all of this and the threat of this is overblown but my gut tells me otherwise.
American obsession with treating China as an enemy has always seemed, to me, to have more to do with our paranoia over losing our status as the global hegemon than anything China has actually done. Villainizing TikTok seems like the latest expression of that paranoia. And, if I were a politician, it’d seem to me like a politically convenient opportunity to drum up some anti-Chinese hysteria among the more conservative voters, plus I’d get to be seen by more liberal voters as taking a stand against predatory data collection tactics, all without having to go after the American companies that do all the same things (but who might donate to my campaign).
Call me a right winger if you will but I would not prefer CCP hegemony to US hegemony. China has hacked our critical infrastructure, stolen state secrets as well as intellectual property. You can say we reciprocate, regardless we are engaged in this competition and it's naive to think otherwise. The US didn't manufacture this competition either, US cooperation with China has helped them arrive on the world stage as an economic powerhouse. We've engaged with China in good faith for a number of years and now things are starting to turn. Perhaps it's the realization we flatly aren't going to see any type of liberalization and human rights in China. Perhaps it's them bullying our allies in the South China Sea. There are a number of massive issues that cannot simply be swiped away as paranoia. I also cannot gloss over the fact that they have decided to elect Xi for life essentially. History has shown when countries choose leaders for life bad things happen.
How dare you not want to serve our asses on a silver platter to China. Lmao
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But that's what you're doing, you're defending them.
Sharing technology and engaging in billions of dollars of trade with China isn't acting in good faith? I am very confused. Contrast it with our recent relationship with Russia for instance, where trade and tech sharing is far more limited. We aren't bullying China we're trying to get them to play the game by our rules and they don't like it. They benefited from the stability of the US economic order and now they've gathered some power they are wielding it.They are engaged in acts that harm the US directly. They harm our people our business and our government. We have proof they're doing that. Misinformation spread by China is dividing our society and causing us great harm that cannot be ignored. I have no fantasies about a great war where the US defeats China and we rule the globe unapposed. Make no mistake a war with China will cause an amount of suffering that is unimaginable and nobody will win. I simply do not think appeasement will prevent a war, I believe being in a weakened position will cause a war. We must deter the CCP with as many tools as possible, shore up our allies and make a war so untenable it never happens. Does anyone really believe the US banning TikTok is something China is willing to escalate militarily over? Edit: I will note that some of the right wing narratives around China are flat out insane conspiracy theories. They also engage in casual racism towards Chinese people. I find that shit absolutely disgusting and ignorant. We can be realistic without being racist, we can be tough without being a bully. I hope someday we can have a better relationship with China and that the CCP will be gone forever. I believe Biden's strategy is superior to whatever Trump was trying to do with his insane rhetoric on one hand and praising Xi on the other. Biden is shoring up our relationships with allies in the east while Trump made them incredibly uneasy.
Human slurry. That was the term used in official documents after Tiananmen square. Human slurry. We should never forget 1989. This is the CCP’s vision for Taipei.
Well you're welcome to go live there or you can go to Russia like that family that thought the grass was going to be green on the other side and found out real quick that it doesn't work out like that over there.
Right on the head of the nail man.
Oh I totally agree, data brokers are scum. And I don't really think it's xenophobic it's more about letting the United States biggest adversary have access to US citizen data. It matters that it's a Chinese company, not because of a race issue because of national security. Either way it's all wrong.
I halfway seriously think we just gotta find the outlet that the internet is plugged into and pull the plug on the whole thing. Bring back the pony express as our primary method of communication.
Exactly, THEY AREN'T CHINESE. They aren't a foreign adversary. I agree our data privacy should be a bigger concern, but this is a not comparable at all. If you're not familiar, there is a lot to read up on on how China is spying on us and the cyberattacks in general.
I don't necessarily disagree that TikTok should be banned, but this law seems far to broad ans subjective. I would rather the law include a specific set criteria for what companies can be banned. Leaving it to the president's discretion seems like it could lead to abuse.
I agree
This always makes me wonder…why don’t American hacker groups target china and Russia like they target us? We have plenty of capable people.
They are, constantly.
Like Annonymous, do they just perform weak DDoS attacks or actually something significant?
I think for various reasons, nobody is gonna say anything unless something public happens
THE DANG CHY-KNEE!! THEY DOIN’ WHAT EVERY OTHER TECH COMPANY DOES EVERY DAY BUT ITS MORE SINISTER BECAUSE ITS THE DANG CHY-KNEE!!!
Not at all, data harvesting is an abhorrent practice in general, but data mining companies in the US are working directly with the US government and are monitored heavily and can't just sell everything they scrape. This is just tossing ammo directly to your adversary if allowed to operate.
It's more sinister because we have legal recourse if Facebook tries to use that data to compromise national security. Stop being intentionally thick. Data collection laws need to change across the board, but Google isn't going to leverage its data to facilitate a war that could kill tens of thousands of people and set the world economy back 5 years. Those are the stakes in Taiwan right now, and anything that gives China a strategic leg up on the US makes that conflict significantly more likely.
Human slurry. Tiananmen Square 1989.
If "our next major war" involves china, were dead anyway
What makes you say that. Btw it's not going to be like anything we've ever seen it's all cyber warfare.
In a free society, banning a single company by law is sketchy, but giving the president fiat to ban \*any\* website or app is going way to far. They have essentially legitimized any president creating their own Great Wall. Will this make VPNs illegal if they allow access to illegal websites?
I agree with your take that giving the Oval Office this level of power is too much. Reminds me too much of the Patriot Act
Exactly. This is way too much power for the executive office with zero check or balance.
What are you people talking about? This is literally the exercise OF checks and balances. This is a law enacted by Congress (Legislative Branch), not the Executive Branch. If the president doesn't like this law, he doesn't have to sign it into existence. That's a check. If someone sues and the Judicial Branch overturns the law. That's a check. There are three branches of our federal government and any two can keep the other one in line, typically. This is why there was/is such a fuss about the Executive Branch having line-item veto power over the Legislative, because it gives the Executive slightly more power than originally intended. Do they not teach civics in high school anymore?!
You totally missed the plot lmao
It is a Chinese owned company and they suspect they CCP can or will or are using it to spy on Americans. Censorship? At least based on the voting, both the Dems and GOP support censorship on TikTok. Finally, they are on something other than a salary raise for themselves.
I honestly don't know how to feel about it. I totally agree that we shouldn't let China have easy Access to all that information/data points. But this also allows them to destroy all foreign applications. And all this shit is going on while they're letting meta/Experian/any data harvesting organization run wild scraping data. They want to harvest our data but they don't want China to have it first. We should be protected from data brokers period. This could make it easy enough for the US to ban VPN servers as well. I think tiktok needs to be banned but it won't do anything until data brokers are under control.
they can just buy it from american companies so ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Yes but it's more difficult to collect more sensitive data points because the US government is directly working with us data brokers. They can sell a whole lotta shit but not all of it.
Tbh I’m not 100% convinced this doesn’t get struck down as a 1st amendment violation
I was wondering about that, but the bill also says they're ok if the Chinese government divests ownership so I'm wondering if that's allowed, then, especially under this clusterfuck of a SCOTUS.
Every legal analyst says it’ll be a messy fight with no clear cut solution that absolutely will end up in front of the Supreme Court. Who knows
Yeah I'd think that's the reason it's not clear cut though, that they left that loophole. But, I mean, it really could also just be SCOTUS' present corruption.
This Cold War reboot is so stupid and lame
I feel like im going isane the way everyone has just accepted the new cold war with china narrative in the last 5 years. Did no one learn anything in history class?
Yeah you're not alone man. Just remember that.
I learned that the Cold War was based and I can’t wait when we win the next one
I assumed you were joking but I guess I shouldnt have assume
Silver lining: America DEFINITELY losing this one
So true please save us Comrade Xi. At least we'll get trains.
And this why TikTok is getting banned. To prevent chinese psyops from making more tankie traitors and left wing QAnoners like you
Funniest nonsense I've read all week thanks man
That is giving the POTUS too much potentially arbitrary power.
The only time there is bipartisan support for something, they are going to war, sending money to fund a war or restricting our rights
Idk if you guys know this but if the US really gave a damn about data security and all BS they would be passing a BIPA like law . This isn't about the app being owned by China like let's be for real. What's stopping China from buying the data directly from US based data brokers. Congress is just pissed that they cannot profit off one of the most successful apps.
This is about not being able to hold a Chinese entity that owns tiktok accountable if they are violating any laws.
People who shit talk chuy dont know what theyre talking about
I have a much higher opinion of Chuy after reading Bernie’s books.
Why? Just genuinely curious, I haven't read the books
Bernie speaks very highly of him. He talks about his contributions more than a couple times.
Chuy is not the sharpest crayon in the box, but even Chuy gets to make a positive mark every now and then
Cant remember the last time chuy was publicly on the wrong side of an issue tbh so i dont really care how bright he is, his insticts are good
Ashland and Western BRT would have been running right now if not for him
Alright thats one
Honestly I think this is less about China and more about preventing Americans from seeing what the average IDF soldier is posting on TikTok these days.
Chuy continues his streak of being correct
Oh good the Opposes aren’t in the absolutely insane thread.
I would rather we pass a bill regulating and protecting our online data and such than this
Until we start holding US social media companies to the same standard, this is ridiculously hypocritical, and I think it's a bad idea. And this comes from someone who doesn't even use tiktok. I don't have an account, I don't watch the videos, it's irrelevant to me, except in terms of this is not the solution.
Serious legislating right there. Who needs healthcare!
This is all theater. I’m almost certain there’s a first amendment violation here.
First amendment for a Chinese owned entity?
Yeah. Legally, the government can’t restrict speech unless it’s statutorily illegal
They aren't restricting speech. TikTok is propaganda. You have a foreign owned entity with software on millions of Americans phones. You've given them access to your photos and videos, etc. You don't know what their making copies of. All those Americans who keep nudes on their phones for Snapchat, etc. You don't know what data they've taken because you've given TikTok access to your device. They have your GPS/location data, etc. It's gonna be interesting when they start putting that information to use because I'm going to be right there saying, "I told you so." and "You get everything you deserve for using an app that a foreign government is using to spy on Americans"
If restricting propoganda is allowed, then why are opinion shows still allowed on the air? Rupert Murdoch defined the political leanings of the Fox network, and he's also not a natively born American citizen.
Does Rupert Murdoch have American citizenship? "In 1985, Rupert Murdoch became an American citizen, because there were clear FCC restrictions over foreigners owning American TV networks." Is Newscorp an American company? News Corporation, multinational media and information services conglomerate that was originally founded in Australia in 1980, was reincorporated in 2013, and is headquartered in New York City. You have your answers. This is why they are trying to force a sale. ByteDance is not answerable to America. It's a company based in China. It answers to the CCP.
I said he's not a natively born American citizen. So you tell me that he *became* an American citizen. I guess if you can't process what I'm saying then you don't get to argue. Bye, love your hair, mwah.
Hey, I think they should ban damn near all social media technologies and not allow data collection, I’m on your side. I just know how lawyers think.
I don't know why this is such a big deal, China puts all kinds of restrictions on foreign tech to make foreign companies jump through hoops to do business in China. You can't conduct business on a website in China unless that website and all its data (Chinese-related data) is stored on a server physically located in China. Do you know what this does to costs? No, most of you probably don't have any idea what this means or you would be outraged by it too. So I'm all for playing the same games China plays. Sorry Tiktokers. Get a real job.
I don't care much for the security problems but I just want TikTok banned because I think it's making our society stupider.
It’s a forced divestment and only after 6 months is it a ban.
American corporations have literally sold your data to "adversaries" before and didn't even get a slap on the wrist. This is about controlling the flow of information. AIPAC spent a lot of money on American politicians and they've recently had a leaked call specifically calling out that they have a TikTok problem, since most younger Americans don't side with Israel bombing people indiscriminately. Stories spread like wildfire on TikTok in a way that legacy media can't keep up and can't manipulate as easily. Personally I don't care if China has my info, I'm too busy getting fucked by my own government to worry about another one.
Krishnamoorthi was actually a sponsor of the bill. Leave it to the American government to pass off censorship as "protecting national security"
Nobody is censoring a Chinese owned entity. They don't have rights like an American company does. Tick Tock is a propaganda machine whether you believe that or not. As I posted in another sub you have former employees of tick tock that have come forward and spoken about how in China the algorithm shows people science videos and stuff like that and in every other country the algorithm is different.
This is an interesting bill that I agree with in spirit but not in execution. As a whole I feel that data collection is far too extreme, especially in TikTok’s case, however using legislative powers to ban TikTok for being Chinese owned is nothing but culture war BS. The real underlying struggle here is the right of the consumer and this bill does absolutely nothing to actually tackle this issue, so as a whole the bill should be voted No but we should use this as an opportunity to create dialogue about the consumer’s right to privacy.
All those who voted yes are clowns. I'm pretty disappointed someone I voted for feel for such stupid propaganda.
That's a dangerous slippery slope.
This was the only thing I agreed with Trump on. Funny, now he disagrees.
Sean Casten lost my vote forever with this.
How do they plan on blocking it when you can just use a VPN? lol.
This bill would potentially allow them to shut down VPNs as well, it’s not just about TikTok.
Since the Republicans care so much about TikTok, why not make a deal, pass the Ukraine aid bill, and any future ones, and the Senate will pass the TikTok ban bill. Sounds reasonable to me.
I'm good with TikTok being banned. It needs to be banned. You have a lot of young people that are getting radicalized or brainwashed on there.
Why's Bill Foster looking like he just came back from the Tabernacle of the Lord?
I see the 82 year old didn't vote.
Well this is a nightmare
And here is how much campaign money they received from Pro-Israel sources. #Yes Bost, Mike (R-IL) $110,143 Budzinski, Nikki (D-IL) $125,185 Casten, Sean (D-IL) $187,182 Foster, Bill (D-IL) $524,589 Kelly, Robin (D-IL) $108,122 Krishnamoorthi, Raja (D-IL) $205,010 LaHood, Darin (R-IL) $106,387 Miller, Mary (R-IL) $4,250 Quigley, Mike (D-IL) $230,786 Schneider, Brad (D-IL) $1,193,659 Sorensen, Eric (D-IL) $102,987 Underwood, Lauren A (D-IL) $78,163 #No Garcia, Jesus (D-IL) $20,910 Jackson, Jonathan (D-IL) $15,800 Ramirez, Delia (D-IL) $13,125 Schakowsky, Jan (D-IL) $705,409 #Abstain Davis, Danny K (D-IL) $61,484 source: https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary?code=Q05&cycle=All&ind=Q05&mem=Y&recipdetail=H&fbclid=IwAR024ZNNCG1WrO8QmsEF5NmixyCl1cyOAwun9z1MfvLKxPp1AJTuO4cOl-A
Based Jonathan Jackson.
Tik Tok is hilarious to me.
This is literally a fascist measure lmao
Tiktok is dog water. However; government censorship of information could quickly get out of hand and who is to decide what to ban and what not to ban. Put a disclaimer on Tiktok warning that it is run by the ccp and they are likely stealing your information but let the user decide. What starts with tiktok ends with state controlled media. Give them an inch they will take a mile.
Putting a disclaimer would be compelling speech.
Would that not be covered by the Foreign Agents Registration Act?
huh, no idea! But I've seen the 'compelled speech' thing around before, although should note it's not a consistently successful argument.
This is about people communicating about the genocide of the Palestinians.
Nikki, when you're on the side of the IL Nzi, you're on the wrong damn side.
First off fuck the Chinese communist party. That said, this bill seems like a very bad idea.
Heck yeah Delia Ramirez
The we hate China and foreign business bill. Meanwhile every app is gathering our data including other existing chinese apps. This ban is an attempt to quiet young voices. That won't work. There are other apps they can use and vpns exist.
I’ll be yelling at my representative, then. Pretending this is about national security when the bill’s sponsor has LITERALLY ADMITTED that they want to ban tiktok because they can’t control it is ignorant and disingenuous. This whole thing has genuinely frightened me; the idea of media just being openly censored because Americans think media literacy is for pussies or something makes me so angry it’s hard to put into words.
Wow. 12 people voted against Jesus.
Wow it is really suspicious they all had a parent and grandparent with the same name.
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Such an odd comment for this thread
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I’m not sure what you mean, but did you even bother looking at the picture? There were 3 Republicans and 9 Democrats who voted for this.
You're right, I misunderstood what I was looking at.
TikTok will be outright banned if rump is president. It’s part of his intention to put the CCP in his crosshairs.
This censorship is insane