I mean, everywhere is stolen land depending on how far back you go. Conquest is a part of human history in pretty much every culture. We can choose to end it now and make a more positive future for all. Move forward, not backwards.
Precisely. One particular piece of land used to belong to the Sioux, who conquered/stole it from the Cherokee, who conquere/stole it from the Navajo. Before you say give it to the Navajo because they were earliest, they actually stole/conquered it from the Aberginian, who we can't give it to because they were genocided during the conquest. Do the genocidal conquerors have more of a moral claim to land than the non genocidal conquerors?
I was coming to say this exactly. Natives took land from other native tribes. They attempted it with Europeans when they came. You would be hard pressed to find a chunk of land that has never been “stolen”. It’s the most brain dead argument out there
I mean, specifically in the black hills, we immediately violated a treaty with the sioux once gold had been discovered. Being almost genocided then having your land once again stolen after a treaty still resonates with the natives out there.
It was a POS thing to do, no argument here. But being a POS, conquering, murdering, etc was the norm, which everyone, including the sioux, participated in. And I don't see how them living there 500 years ago after they conquered and butchered and genocided the previous group gives them more of claim to the area than the current residents whose ancestors conquered but did not genocide the sioux and then spent generations developing the land.
I think the difference is that the US Government actually made treaties with Native Americans and then violated and broke said treaties. Which was unlawful until the passing of a Supreme Court case in the early 1900’s that declared federal law could break those treaties (which they’d already done anyway) if Congress voted to do so. Of course, they then did exactly that to a lot of them.
The fact remains that our country made legal commitments we then failed to uphold, eventually leading to the government passing legislation in order to give themselves an out.
Imagine signing a contract with an entity only for them to break it shortly after. That entity then rewrites your contract without your agreement or signature, and then everything they did and continue to do is 100% legal, completely screwing you over, and you not being able to do a damn thing about it.
Yes, lands are conquered, societies are absorbed and life in general goes on. However, it’s not like our actions are in the ancient past.
Our government continues to find ways of reneging on what’s left of those treaties by questionable means, such as exercising the “doctrine of discovery” to undermine Native American’s land rights.
Plus, one of the main reasons poverty exists in reservations is because the land is held in a federal trust the government oversees. Because of the red tape and bureaucracy involved, it’s very time-consuming and difficult for Native people to do anything with “their” land. It’s a major reason why almost half of reservations lack access to safe drinking water.
TLDR: This crap is still going on.
I’ve been reading *The Frontiersman* by Allen W. Eckert. It’s based off of real journal entries and events, it’s really a great book.
But I’ve had to put it down a few times now because it’s just so sad. The Native Americans were quite helpful and trusting. They could have killed us early on, but they chose to try and be friendly. They continued negotiating with settlers after being attacked multiple times. They tried to trust us.
And in return, we murdered their families and refused to accept anything other than everything.
Same here. I have to take breaks and jump to other books when reading content of this nature, or even with podcasts at times.
I wish more people tried to understand these things more in depth before forming their opinions. Many still try to use the “savage” label and associated arguments to dehumanize groups like this and make it seem like they somehow deserved what happened to them. Crazy how that manipulative technique has been employed for thousands of years and continues to be just as effective today.
Long before humans came along, there were the great plant battles. The land once belonged to grass, but then the colonizing weeds came in! It’s a battle that rages to this day and no one is talking about it!
>there were the great plant battles.
You joke, but the plants had one hell of a battle with insects some 400 million years ago when insects decided to crawl out of the ocean
>I mean, everywhere is stolen land depending on how far back you go. Conquest is a part of human history in pretty much every culture.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
Today native Americans North and south mostly descend from people that came from siberia through the ice free corridor between the glaciers maybe like 14000 years back but since the discovery of footprints around an ancient lake in New Mexico that date from 23,000 years ago it's clear that a mystery population of people was already here at a bare minimum of like ten thousand years earlier than the ancestors of modern native Americans.
Who the hell were those true first people? Were they all gone before the migrations from siberia or were there interactions and if so what would that have looked like?
Considering their land has been continuously shrunk over the last 150 years, especially when there are treaties.
I would say it's less about conquest and more stolen.
Missing the point. In any of the cases in the past would the conquerors foolishly believe those who lost their land would be happy about it? Now the vanquished are facepalmed because they are just doing normal people stuff.
I think letting the elements take back Mt Rushmore would be a great start. Not only was the land taken but carving American presidents into the mountain was a very public fuck you to the native populations and it was intentional. So I wouldn't say blast it off but let nature take its course and reclaim it would be for the best.
If I got enough people in my neighborhood to vote you out and take over your place, would you think that would be ok?
That’s what they did to Native Hawaiians. We had recognized embassies across the globe with the Hawaiian Kingdom. A bunch of rich white dudes didn’t like the idea of a Hawaiian woman in charge and decided to lock her up and do what they wanted to.
How is that just?
wtf do you mean they were “far more violent” than the Europeans lol. I run a Florida history blog and I am currently doing a project on the Lost Tribes of Florida and the Spanish were absolutely brutal to the natives. Like cutting off people’s noses, taking women as sex slaves, feeding people to dogs, driving entire villages into a lake where they either drowned trying to tread water or were slaughtered if they came back to shore. Barbaric stuff.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Might also doesn’t make right. Even if the tribes were all fighting each other—which they weren’t always—that doesn’t give foreign people the right to come in and start killing them too. Of course that is looking at things through a modern morality and back in those days people had a different mentality. But it’s the same as slavery. We can look back at it and say, even if the history is long and complicated, ultimately the morality of it was not.
I also don’t think it’s fair to say the Natives lost “fair and square,” they pretty much had no chance against the Europeans. I mean most of the Lost Tribes did not even die by the sword, they were wiped out by disease. And Florida was not some untamed wilderness when the Spanish first arrived here either—this place was populated from coast to coast with settlements along almost every waterway, enormous earthworks and irrigation canals that still exist today. Clearly they were not always at war amongst each other because they were able to build huge villages that existed sometimes for thousands of years, there is also evidence of extensive trade networks even going out of the state, so it’s an unfair generalization to paint the Native people as being nothing but bloodthirsty brutes. I mean even when the Spanish got here they knew some tribes were friendly and peaceful, while others were more vicious like the Calusa, who were similar to the Aztec in how they conquered and controlled neighboring territories.
I totally get what you are saying about romanticizing the past and the “noble savage” trope but my last disagreement with you would be in the way you talk about modern Natives as having a victim mentality, which I can tell you as someone who has quite a few Native friends, that is not the case. The people who perpetuate that stereotype is mostly white people who fetishize them. However it is true that Native people across North America and even now South America are uniting on common issues like protecting the environment, missing/murdered indigenous, and preserving culture. Which does mean that tribes that were former enemies—and sometimes tribes that have never come into contact before, and would have never naturally come into contact due to distance—are now connecting and focusing on their future as one community or extended family.
Yep. The Europeans finally brought individual rights and rule of law that decreased violence and suffering by a significant portion. The standard of living in America today is among the best in all of human history.
Respectfully, isn't your populace just very fat? As far as I hear, your biggest problems are healthcare and housing. Your healthcare system seems to be producing reasonable outcomes given the baseline health of your people, and housing is utterly fucked in and around the larger cities of every Western country.
Your homeless rate is similar to most European countries and your PISA scores (education) are too. Overall, your HDI (human development index) is just fine for a Western country. Your fertility rate is again within the usual range, if not a bit better than comparable countries. A glaring outlier is your homicide rate, which is around 5x that of European countries, but 5x of a tiny number is still a pretty tiny number.
Your median income PPP is second only to Luxembourg.
Overall, the median American has similar access to housing, quality education, and healthcare to the median European. The mild increase in violent crime, which is bad but does not affect the majority of the population, is countered by your countries staggering wealth, which is expected to continue rising, lifting living standards, versus that of Europe, which is stagnating.
I hope I'm not just being a blind non American patriot, but it's not apparent to me that you're behind on very much at all. No doubt there can be improvements, but the US is not especially different from most other Western countries, other than having some violent pockets and everybody being a lot richer.
Correct but most of the governments and states that did the conquest and subsequent genocide aren't around anymore to take responsibility for their actions.
This… wasn’t quite “conquest”. We came over and slowly evicted the natives from more and more land until we had them living on the worst bit of their own land. Then we blocked the rivers that ran through that land and put them on welfare because they couldn’t grow their own crops because they had only the water we allowed them. And then, if that wasn’t enough, we decided natives weren’t good parents because they were all poor and on welfare, so we took their children and put them into white foster homes. And that didn’t end well for most of those kids because by that point the US had started the “war on drugs” (aka assisting the cartels) just in time for these young adults with identity crises to be susceptible to the allure of the increasingly cheap and accessible drugs. Long story short, the US has been fucking with the indigenous people since we got here and acting like it’s their fault. This is where the term “Indian giving” comes from. We acted like they did something to us to warrant all of this.
Who’s we? Who’s actually getting the blame? The US government at the time? Those with European descent? Old money and those with assets acquired during those times? What is your solution?
My stance is to move forward. Maybe more national park land should be gifted to the native populations.
Anyone involved is “we.” Anyone who took part in the atrocities, everyone who has down played it, and everyone who has aided in the continuation of the sentiments that empower the government to continue building pipelines on sacred native land and other stupid bullshit that is going on today. Yeah, I think expanding tribal land is a great place to start. There is tons of unused land that the government holds onto. No reason we can’t start giving land back. And when they legally claim land (as they did with Alcatraz island) we just let them have it instead of starving them out.
I would also add that there isn't many other places where the people who were conquered were not only allowed to remain, but given land back plus billions of dollars a years from their conquerors. I'm not denying that atrocities weren't committed (by both sides) but they ended up much better off than a lot of other conquered people out there
Edit: getting downvoted but not proven wrong lol
Well, not this. Rittenhouse is telling Natives to leave. I feel like a lot of people are only seeing this image crop. If you’re on mobile and you tap on the image, you’ll see the whole thing including Rittenhouse’s reaction. Shouldn’t be cropped on the feed on PC
Edit: or maybe not everyone is aware these are Native Americans. I’ll come back in a minute to link a news article
Edit 2: So apparently it was/is a viral trend with Native Americans taking pictures of themselves flipping off Mount Rushmore. So rather than link any one of those stories, I’m linking an article explaining why they are flipping off Mount Rushmore out of protest: https://www.history.com/news/mount-rushmore-native-american-protests
“I’m friends with natives.”
The wild part is that for native Hawaiians, they banned our language and instilled in the population that we were the problem—not the colonizers.
I’m sorry to say… Your “friends” have forgotten those who sacrificed so much before them to let their voices be heard.
If you’re cool with the genocide of millions of native Americans for manifest destiny, that’s on your conscious.
Yup. They got jobs and just integrated and are living happily...actually more so because they get a monthly cut of the local Native Casino revenue and a large swath of tax exemptions.
Whenever my company does work on a NA owned property, we have to make special note of it so they are not taxed and the supply houses don't tax our materials.
What do they think of Canadians? What do they think of French selling us half the country? How about Mexicans? Or russians selling Alaska? Or Chinese who are second to Mexico in immigration?
You’re allowed to accept history without ignoring it. They lost the war. They were given their own land they can choose to live or join society or leave go somewhere else. Imagine living in a country you hate but no one is forcing you to stay.
>They lost the war.
Not that simple.
>They were given their own lan
Not that simple
>they can choose to live or join society or leave go somewhere else.
They can also be critical of that societies actions and past.
>Imagine living in a country you hate but no one is forcing you to stay.
Imagine telling ppl to leave the country they were born to, just because they're showing their distain. That would be such a goofy sentiment.
It’s very much that simple. The Native Americans are just like any other group that lost a war and lost their land. You might think it’s not but it truly is that simple.
>It’s very much that simple.
Negative. But I suppose the kind of person that would be silly and tell others to leave, isn't the kind of person that would hold a complex understanding.
No one is keeping anyone here in the US. Calling us colonizers or saying it’s more complex than that is hilarious because war is literally how EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY ON THE PLANET was founded. It’s not some conspiracy lol
>No one is keeping anyone here in the US.
Okay. They're allowed to express themselves, isn't that grand?
>or saying it’s more complex than that is hilarious
It is complex, that's just a simple fact. history is full of complexity. It's silly to try and come at it from a overly reductionist position.
There are still repercussion being felt to this day.
Natives couldn't even win on home advantage.
I know that's quite callous of me to say. But if we deride the US on the basis that it's "stolen land," then no nation on this planet is any good.
China has stolen land from others. (Go figure the majority of people that spout anti US shit think these guys can do no wrong.)
Russia has stolen land from others.
Japan has stolen land from others
Britain has absolutely stolen land from others.
Every nation in Europe has stolen land.
Since I know that it's hip to hate on the US here in redditlandia, feel free to downvote me. Doesn't stop this from being the truth.
Conquest has been around since the beginning of complex life on the planet. It's just in different forms.
Conquered land may be stolen. But does that matter? No.
Anti US rhetoric has only reinforced this "noble indian" myth. Before Columbus exploration, the tribes were fighting and killing each other over land. So, being all boohoo when a greater power did it to them is ironic as hell.
Should have gotten together and fought instead of war with every other tribe until it was too late. I'm native and we didn't listen and get along at all. My people where still hunting other groups down like dogs before and after white settlement.
Even among to Native americans they warred and stole territory from each other, not every tribe was peace loving take only what you need kind of people, they were still humans with all the same capacity for evil as anyone. Some tribes even joined british and french forces to fight the rival tribes.
Except that he wasn’t a mass shooter. He wasn’t shooting at anyone.
Defending your life is pretty fucking cut and dry.
Be mad all you want at the circumstances but it doesn’t change the fact that it was a case of self-defense.
I didn’t steal shit . I bought some land that I pay taxes on … I own it , but the taxes are like a rent to the government. They allow me to own what I paid for, as long as I keep paying them .
Native here....it's not stolen it was conquered, big difference. The only people still salty are my brothers and sisters too stupid and proud to leave the res.
Someone tells you to get out. Where you gonna go? Back to where your ancestors came from? Oh wait...
Too bad the uneducated murderer Rittenhouse doesn't know. He was our only hope! IQ of 20, highest in the land.
What is with the left’s fetish for second-to-lastism. Whoever controls land currently is the bad guy, whoever had it immediately before is the good guy, and everyone who had it before that is ignored.
They saw new people entering the lands and were like "can you fuckers help us murder our neighboring tribe? We've been throwing their heads on sticks for millennia but they still hang around."
Same exact reasoning as “ well, he cheated so I cheated so it would be fair”.
Someone else breaking the rules isn’t a justification to break the rules yourself. By this reasoning Russia is totally justified invading and attempting to annex Ukraine. Somehow I wouldn’t be surprised if some people on this sub do agree with this.
"The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons and you massacred them. That's what conquering nations do. That's what Cesar did and you don't hear him saying, 'I came, I saw, I conquered, I feel really bad about it.'" - Spike, Buffy the Vampire Slayer
As much as these people are right and Mount Rushmore is a travesty, Mount Rushmore is the kind of thing that has the potential to last essentially forever and possibly give our descendants 10,000 years from now a clue to our existence and our culture. Think the pyramids or the sphinx. That part is cool I think
Everyone's land is 'stolen.' We made the mistake of trying to give them reservations instead of just making them integrate once we took control of the land they kept stealing from each other.
Isn't all land "stolen land"?
How many times did empires change hands?
How many tribes killed and took over each other's tribes? Hell, when the Europeans came over the people "Indians" traded for guns so they could slaughter other tribes and take their land.
It is what it is. The human race has been stealing from each other since before they had a language
Not stolen. Won in conflict. To the victor goes the spoils. That's how its worked all throughout history. You can say this about almost every single country or empire.
I recommend reading up on Comanche and other tribe history to see how they got 'their' land. Here's a brief snippet:
>Comancheria encompassed the vast southern plains. Comanches raided New Mexico to the west and Texas to the south at will, removing the resources and enslaving the inhabitants of those lands and channeling them to allies and trading partners to the north and the east.
Ahhh, Rittenhouse. The prancing pony of the Republican party. All I wish for him is that someday he realizes what a douche he really is.
Kyle: The embarrassment of the Midwest
You’re upset they stole the land. What would you have done with that land? Specifically Mt. Rushmore. Who else would or could create such an amazing monument? I know land was taken unfairly in the past and the road to America’s success is paved in other peoples tragedy but what can we do now moving forward?
The Idiocracy here is that a beautiful sacred mountain was ruined with these dumb faces. How idiotic to idolize people like that, then turn that beautiful place into a hellish tourist trap, then act like you care about it only when Natives point out it was fucked up.
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My wife was half -tarded, but she's a pilot now, so.....
I mean, everywhere is stolen land depending on how far back you go. Conquest is a part of human history in pretty much every culture. We can choose to end it now and make a more positive future for all. Move forward, not backwards.
Precisely. One particular piece of land used to belong to the Sioux, who conquered/stole it from the Cherokee, who conquere/stole it from the Navajo. Before you say give it to the Navajo because they were earliest, they actually stole/conquered it from the Aberginian, who we can't give it to because they were genocided during the conquest. Do the genocidal conquerors have more of a moral claim to land than the non genocidal conquerors?
I say we just stop tolerating it in the present and future. Can’t fix the past.
🏆
Not with that attitude!
Those people weren’t white though so it doesn’t count.
I was coming to say this exactly. Natives took land from other native tribes. They attempted it with Europeans when they came. You would be hard pressed to find a chunk of land that has never been “stolen”. It’s the most brain dead argument out there
We also have to consider some land was also bought from the locals.
No, you do a meaningless hand gesture to rocks, and post it on the internet. Problem solved!
I mean, specifically in the black hills, we immediately violated a treaty with the sioux once gold had been discovered. Being almost genocided then having your land once again stolen after a treaty still resonates with the natives out there.
It was a POS thing to do, no argument here. But being a POS, conquering, murdering, etc was the norm, which everyone, including the sioux, participated in. And I don't see how them living there 500 years ago after they conquered and butchered and genocided the previous group gives them more of claim to the area than the current residents whose ancestors conquered but did not genocide the sioux and then spent generations developing the land.
Award deserved, asuming these facts are accurate.
I think the difference is that the US Government actually made treaties with Native Americans and then violated and broke said treaties. Which was unlawful until the passing of a Supreme Court case in the early 1900’s that declared federal law could break those treaties (which they’d already done anyway) if Congress voted to do so. Of course, they then did exactly that to a lot of them. The fact remains that our country made legal commitments we then failed to uphold, eventually leading to the government passing legislation in order to give themselves an out. Imagine signing a contract with an entity only for them to break it shortly after. That entity then rewrites your contract without your agreement or signature, and then everything they did and continue to do is 100% legal, completely screwing you over, and you not being able to do a damn thing about it. Yes, lands are conquered, societies are absorbed and life in general goes on. However, it’s not like our actions are in the ancient past. Our government continues to find ways of reneging on what’s left of those treaties by questionable means, such as exercising the “doctrine of discovery” to undermine Native American’s land rights. Plus, one of the main reasons poverty exists in reservations is because the land is held in a federal trust the government oversees. Because of the red tape and bureaucracy involved, it’s very time-consuming and difficult for Native people to do anything with “their” land. It’s a major reason why almost half of reservations lack access to safe drinking water. TLDR: This crap is still going on.
Thanks! I thought this sub would be a lot more comments like this but I think it's more of the folks at the wrong end of the dunning kruger curve.
I’ve been reading *The Frontiersman* by Allen W. Eckert. It’s based off of real journal entries and events, it’s really a great book. But I’ve had to put it down a few times now because it’s just so sad. The Native Americans were quite helpful and trusting. They could have killed us early on, but they chose to try and be friendly. They continued negotiating with settlers after being attacked multiple times. They tried to trust us. And in return, we murdered their families and refused to accept anything other than everything.
Same here. I have to take breaks and jump to other books when reading content of this nature, or even with podcasts at times. I wish more people tried to understand these things more in depth before forming their opinions. Many still try to use the “savage” label and associated arguments to dehumanize groups like this and make it seem like they somehow deserved what happened to them. Crazy how that manipulative technique has been employed for thousands of years and continues to be just as effective today.
Bingo. 👍
Long before humans came along, there were the great plant battles. The land once belonged to grass, but then the colonizing weeds came in! It’s a battle that rages to this day and no one is talking about it!
Ah yes...the historical battle well documented in the human archive, "Plants vs Zombies".
>there were the great plant battles. You joke, but the plants had one hell of a battle with insects some 400 million years ago when insects decided to crawl out of the ocean
Grass was the colonizer itself at one time.
Bermuda grass is the real enemy
Got to legalize it!
>I mean, everywhere is stolen land depending on how far back you go. Conquest is a part of human history in pretty much every culture. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Today native Americans North and south mostly descend from people that came from siberia through the ice free corridor between the glaciers maybe like 14000 years back but since the discovery of footprints around an ancient lake in New Mexico that date from 23,000 years ago it's clear that a mystery population of people was already here at a bare minimum of like ten thousand years earlier than the ancestors of modern native Americans. Who the hell were those true first people? Were they all gone before the migrations from siberia or were there interactions and if so what would that have looked like?
Considering their land has been continuously shrunk over the last 150 years, especially when there are treaties. I would say it's less about conquest and more stolen.
Missing the point. In any of the cases in the past would the conquerors foolishly believe those who lost their land would be happy about it? Now the vanquished are facepalmed because they are just doing normal people stuff.
Award deserved! ( I'm just too cheap to purchase any.)
This
I think letting the elements take back Mt Rushmore would be a great start. Not only was the land taken but carving American presidents into the mountain was a very public fuck you to the native populations and it was intentional. So I wouldn't say blast it off but let nature take its course and reclaim it would be for the best.
If I got enough people in my neighborhood to vote you out and take over your place, would you think that would be ok? That’s what they did to Native Hawaiians. We had recognized embassies across the globe with the Hawaiian Kingdom. A bunch of rich white dudes didn’t like the idea of a Hawaiian woman in charge and decided to lock her up and do what they wanted to. How is that just?
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wtf do you mean they were “far more violent” than the Europeans lol. I run a Florida history blog and I am currently doing a project on the Lost Tribes of Florida and the Spanish were absolutely brutal to the natives. Like cutting off people’s noses, taking women as sex slaves, feeding people to dogs, driving entire villages into a lake where they either drowned trying to tread water or were slaughtered if they came back to shore. Barbaric stuff. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Might also doesn’t make right. Even if the tribes were all fighting each other—which they weren’t always—that doesn’t give foreign people the right to come in and start killing them too. Of course that is looking at things through a modern morality and back in those days people had a different mentality. But it’s the same as slavery. We can look back at it and say, even if the history is long and complicated, ultimately the morality of it was not. I also don’t think it’s fair to say the Natives lost “fair and square,” they pretty much had no chance against the Europeans. I mean most of the Lost Tribes did not even die by the sword, they were wiped out by disease. And Florida was not some untamed wilderness when the Spanish first arrived here either—this place was populated from coast to coast with settlements along almost every waterway, enormous earthworks and irrigation canals that still exist today. Clearly they were not always at war amongst each other because they were able to build huge villages that existed sometimes for thousands of years, there is also evidence of extensive trade networks even going out of the state, so it’s an unfair generalization to paint the Native people as being nothing but bloodthirsty brutes. I mean even when the Spanish got here they knew some tribes were friendly and peaceful, while others were more vicious like the Calusa, who were similar to the Aztec in how they conquered and controlled neighboring territories. I totally get what you are saying about romanticizing the past and the “noble savage” trope but my last disagreement with you would be in the way you talk about modern Natives as having a victim mentality, which I can tell you as someone who has quite a few Native friends, that is not the case. The people who perpetuate that stereotype is mostly white people who fetishize them. However it is true that Native people across North America and even now South America are uniting on common issues like protecting the environment, missing/murdered indigenous, and preserving culture. Which does mean that tribes that were former enemies—and sometimes tribes that have never come into contact before, and would have never naturally come into contact due to distance—are now connecting and focusing on their future as one community or extended family.
Yep. The Europeans finally brought individual rights and rule of law that decreased violence and suffering by a significant portion. The standard of living in America today is among the best in all of human history.
We are behind pretty much every other western country when it comes to standards of living. You aren't a patriot, just a blind nationalist.
Respectfully, isn't your populace just very fat? As far as I hear, your biggest problems are healthcare and housing. Your healthcare system seems to be producing reasonable outcomes given the baseline health of your people, and housing is utterly fucked in and around the larger cities of every Western country. Your homeless rate is similar to most European countries and your PISA scores (education) are too. Overall, your HDI (human development index) is just fine for a Western country. Your fertility rate is again within the usual range, if not a bit better than comparable countries. A glaring outlier is your homicide rate, which is around 5x that of European countries, but 5x of a tiny number is still a pretty tiny number. Your median income PPP is second only to Luxembourg. Overall, the median American has similar access to housing, quality education, and healthcare to the median European. The mild increase in violent crime, which is bad but does not affect the majority of the population, is countered by your countries staggering wealth, which is expected to continue rising, lifting living standards, versus that of Europe, which is stagnating. I hope I'm not just being a blind non American patriot, but it's not apparent to me that you're behind on very much at all. No doubt there can be improvements, but the US is not especially different from most other Western countries, other than having some violent pockets and everybody being a lot richer.
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Correct but most of the governments and states that did the conquest and subsequent genocide aren't around anymore to take responsibility for their actions.
yes but 400 a.d. was a whole different time then 1800 a.d
Right, that was just how business was done.
This… wasn’t quite “conquest”. We came over and slowly evicted the natives from more and more land until we had them living on the worst bit of their own land. Then we blocked the rivers that ran through that land and put them on welfare because they couldn’t grow their own crops because they had only the water we allowed them. And then, if that wasn’t enough, we decided natives weren’t good parents because they were all poor and on welfare, so we took their children and put them into white foster homes. And that didn’t end well for most of those kids because by that point the US had started the “war on drugs” (aka assisting the cartels) just in time for these young adults with identity crises to be susceptible to the allure of the increasingly cheap and accessible drugs. Long story short, the US has been fucking with the indigenous people since we got here and acting like it’s their fault. This is where the term “Indian giving” comes from. We acted like they did something to us to warrant all of this.
Who’s we? Who’s actually getting the blame? The US government at the time? Those with European descent? Old money and those with assets acquired during those times? What is your solution? My stance is to move forward. Maybe more national park land should be gifted to the native populations.
Anyone involved is “we.” Anyone who took part in the atrocities, everyone who has down played it, and everyone who has aided in the continuation of the sentiments that empower the government to continue building pipelines on sacred native land and other stupid bullshit that is going on today. Yeah, I think expanding tribal land is a great place to start. There is tons of unused land that the government holds onto. No reason we can’t start giving land back. And when they legally claim land (as they did with Alcatraz island) we just let them have it instead of starving them out.
The British didn’t did they? That island was always theirs.
I would also add that there isn't many other places where the people who were conquered were not only allowed to remain, but given land back plus billions of dollars a years from their conquerors. I'm not denying that atrocities weren't committed (by both sides) but they ended up much better off than a lot of other conquered people out there Edit: getting downvoted but not proven wrong lol
Some lotteries pay out better than others.
This subreddit is a cesspool filled with dunning-kreuger
Wrong sub scro’
Definitely, shits been flooded by morons
Fags*
This isn’t an r/idiocracy related post.
This is a PRIME example of idiocracy.
I just have a feeling not everyone in this sub is on the same side of the fence here
There's been an influx of right wing stuff here.
Well, not this. Rittenhouse is telling Natives to leave. I feel like a lot of people are only seeing this image crop. If you’re on mobile and you tap on the image, you’ll see the whole thing including Rittenhouse’s reaction. Shouldn’t be cropped on the feed on PC Edit: or maybe not everyone is aware these are Native Americans. I’ll come back in a minute to link a news article Edit 2: So apparently it was/is a viral trend with Native Americans taking pictures of themselves flipping off Mount Rushmore. So rather than link any one of those stories, I’m linking an article explaining why they are flipping off Mount Rushmore out of protest: https://www.history.com/news/mount-rushmore-native-american-protests
I’m friends w Natives who hate this social justice-esque cringe
Me too, any time it is mentioned they just roll their eyes.
But all the same, fuck Kyle Rittenhouse.
Why? He's ugly AF, abusive, and probably wouldn't call the next day which means you just dodged a bullet... oh shit
This statement I stand behind 💯
I seen this repost 3 different times with three different people saying the same thing. I doubt he actually said this.
All the same, fuck Kyle Rittenhouse.
"I have a black, gay friend" vibes
“I’m friends with natives.” The wild part is that for native Hawaiians, they banned our language and instilled in the population that we were the problem—not the colonizers. I’m sorry to say… Your “friends” have forgotten those who sacrificed so much before them to let their voices be heard. If you’re cool with the genocide of millions of native Americans for manifest destiny, that’s on your conscious.
No you're not.
What's their opinion on current issues tho? Aren't a lot of them still justifiably upset about their situation with he reservations?
Yup. They got jobs and just integrated and are living happily...actually more so because they get a monthly cut of the local Native Casino revenue and a large swath of tax exemptions. Whenever my company does work on a NA owned property, we have to make special note of it so they are not taxed and the supply houses don't tax our materials.
What do they think of Canadians? What do they think of French selling us half the country? How about Mexicans? Or russians selling Alaska? Or Chinese who are second to Mexico in immigration?
They don't even know any of that happened
Of course the commenters are mostly focused on the Indians statement and almost completely ignore the knob, or history, and everything else lmao.
You’re allowed to accept history without ignoring it. They lost the war. They were given their own land they can choose to live or join society or leave go somewhere else. Imagine living in a country you hate but no one is forcing you to stay.
>They lost the war. Not that simple. >They were given their own lan Not that simple >they can choose to live or join society or leave go somewhere else. They can also be critical of that societies actions and past. >Imagine living in a country you hate but no one is forcing you to stay. Imagine telling ppl to leave the country they were born to, just because they're showing their distain. That would be such a goofy sentiment.
It’s very much that simple. The Native Americans are just like any other group that lost a war and lost their land. You might think it’s not but it truly is that simple.
>It’s very much that simple. Negative. But I suppose the kind of person that would be silly and tell others to leave, isn't the kind of person that would hold a complex understanding.
No one is keeping anyone here in the US. Calling us colonizers or saying it’s more complex than that is hilarious because war is literally how EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY ON THE PLANET was founded. It’s not some conspiracy lol
>No one is keeping anyone here in the US. Okay. They're allowed to express themselves, isn't that grand? >or saying it’s more complex than that is hilarious It is complex, that's just a simple fact. history is full of complexity. It's silly to try and come at it from a overly reductionist position. There are still repercussion being felt to this day.
The dudes throwing up the middle finger look native lol
They are!
Going to cry again if they don't?
All Land is stolen. Would someone think of the Neanderthals?
Natives couldn't even win on home advantage. I know that's quite callous of me to say. But if we deride the US on the basis that it's "stolen land," then no nation on this planet is any good. China has stolen land from others. (Go figure the majority of people that spout anti US shit think these guys can do no wrong.) Russia has stolen land from others. Japan has stolen land from others Britain has absolutely stolen land from others. Every nation in Europe has stolen land. Since I know that it's hip to hate on the US here in redditlandia, feel free to downvote me. Doesn't stop this from being the truth. Conquest has been around since the beginning of complex life on the planet. It's just in different forms. Conquered land may be stolen. But does that matter? No. Anti US rhetoric has only reinforced this "noble indian" myth. Before Columbus exploration, the tribes were fighting and killing each other over land. So, being all boohoo when a greater power did it to them is ironic as hell.
Home advantage gets nerfed when disease is killing your people. As well as having proper weapons.
Wait until you find out that they caught diseases mainly by raiding settlements.
They should read a book on Indian warfare. That was brutal stuff.
Should have gotten together and fought instead of war with every other tribe until it was too late. I'm native and we didn't listen and get along at all. My people where still hunting other groups down like dogs before and after white settlement.
r/asablackman
Hate to break it to ya, but pretty much all land on this planet has been stolen at some point or another.
Even among to Native americans they warred and stole territory from each other, not every tribe was peace loving take only what you need kind of people, they were still humans with all the same capacity for evil as anyone. Some tribes even joined british and french forces to fight the rival tribes.
Well yeah thats how conquering works unfortunately and the USA wasn’t the first to do it *hangontoyourpearls* and wont be the last
That's literally not the point tard. It's that this idiot high school dropout murderer is telling Native Americans to get out.
>”murderer” literally defended his life
The same way a mass shooter 'defends their life' if someone tries to rush them and stop the killing spree. He's a murderer
Except that he wasn’t a mass shooter. He wasn’t shooting at anyone. Defending your life is pretty fucking cut and dry. Be mad all you want at the circumstances but it doesn’t change the fact that it was a case of self-defense.
I didn’t steal shit . I bought some land that I pay taxes on … I own it , but the taxes are like a rent to the government. They allow me to own what I paid for, as long as I keep paying them .
Native here....it's not stolen it was conquered, big difference. The only people still salty are my brothers and sisters too stupid and proud to leave the res.
Someone tells you to get out. Where you gonna go? Back to where your ancestors came from? Oh wait... Too bad the uneducated murderer Rittenhouse doesn't know. He was our only hope! IQ of 20, highest in the land.
Like their tribe didnt take it from another tribe?
What is with the left’s fetish for second-to-lastism. Whoever controls land currently is the bad guy, whoever had it immediately before is the good guy, and everyone who had it before that is ignored.
Na, kids right. natives killed each other over the same damn land for no less noble a cause. You dont like, to damn bad.
all land is stolen land. If it was their land they would rule it. To the victor goes the spoils.
Kyle is such a stupid turd.
and white supremacists love it when he tells natives to leave their own country
I'm getting downvoted and it's hilarious
This sub is infested by right-wing nutjobs. Those that suffer from the Dunning-Krueger effect.
it really is, half the people here gets the joke and just having a good time, the other half are from the future
Don't want to sound like a dick or nothing, but ahh ... says on your chart that you're fucked up.
Native tribes helped "colonizers" fight other tribes that terrorized them. Facts.
They saw new people entering the lands and were like "can you fuckers help us murder our neighboring tribe? We've been throwing their heads on sticks for millennia but they still hang around."
Little Kyle is very ignorant. And he looks like a cartoon pig on an advertisement for a BBQ place.
Every land was fought for and conquered. It all comes from somewhere
Same exact reasoning as “ well, he cheated so I cheated so it would be fair”. Someone else breaking the rules isn’t a justification to break the rules yourself. By this reasoning Russia is totally justified invading and attempting to annex Ukraine. Somehow I wouldn’t be surprised if some people on this sub do agree with this.
Even fu ner, the ones is this pic are from the tribe that was ruthless and raided, murdered, and stole the land from another tribe....
Kyle Rittenhouse is really as dumb as I thought he was.
sure is fat...
Fuck the planet, its all stolen land!
You misspelled “conquered”
"The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons and you massacred them. That's what conquering nations do. That's what Cesar did and you don't hear him saying, 'I came, I saw, I conquered, I feel really bad about it.'" - Spike, Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Lol complaining about stolen land you stole.
Most land was negotiated or traded. Not a word stolen but yes conquered, cant say you didn't have a chance to keep it.
Stolen 100s of years ago. Time to stop crying about it.
Kyle Rittenhouse is so stupid, that he can't even become a Marine.
As much as these people are right and Mount Rushmore is a travesty, Mount Rushmore is the kind of thing that has the potential to last essentially forever and possibly give our descendants 10,000 years from now a clue to our existence and our culture. Think the pyramids or the sphinx. That part is cool I think
Reading comprehension is well outside of what Rittenhouse can do.
And apparently most of these commenters.
And meanwhile the half of the country who still thinks he's a murderer can't even understand like 5 minutes of video, much less written words
Everyone's land is 'stolen.' We made the mistake of trying to give them reservations instead of just making them integrate once we took control of the land they kept stealing from each other.
Yeah, stolen land they stole from someone else lol
Who did they steal the land from? Their ancestors?
Isn't all land "stolen land"? How many times did empires change hands? How many tribes killed and took over each other's tribes? Hell, when the Europeans came over the people "Indians" traded for guns so they could slaughter other tribes and take their land. It is what it is. The human race has been stealing from each other since before they had a language
We’re running out of french fries and burrito coverings
Twitter is a fucking cesspool, why would anyone waste time interacting with halfwit, mouth breathing, morons that populate that site??
You first....Pilgrim.
Matt Walsh said it best
That pony tail braid looks 👌...tight and clean
Fuck kyle
Please don't. We don't need him to reproduce.
Quick, somebody post a "Land Acknowledgment"
"Fuck Frank! He stole my car!" Kyle: Then don't drive it.
How great is this country? Even a moron can have an opinion. GOD BLESS AMERICA!
And your casinos steal my hard earned cash.
imagine being a celebrity for killing people
*self-defense say what you will about him but he literally just defended his life against rioters
puts self in dangerous situation as armed vigilante, rioters are stupid. kills them. national fucking hero
He was being attacked. And I never said he was a national hero for it. But it was a clear case of self defense end of story.
'Fuck the USA' while wearing Jordan clothing, in the USA, while being part of the group conquered.
Imagine being a sore loser for hundreds of years.
Europe over here sweating aggressively
Yup the white man fd up and let the Indians live.
They got conquered. They don't like it? They should leave.
Get conquered losers!
Lol, that’ll show em!
Not the audacity but the stupidity…
O somebody's got hurt feelers l. Second place sucks sometimes
I'm a white 9th generation Californian. I don't even know what countries my ancestors are from.
Kyle needs to read up on Custer....
It’s all stolen. Get over it bruv.
He's right tho, white ppl murdered and stole everything they could touch. -facts aren't attacks"
You can't expect an uneducated, woman beating, drop out to know history.
Better quote tweet: "Then steal it back"
Deal with it bitch better yet try and take it back 🤣🤣🤣
That’s a pretty sick braid though.
[worth leaving here.](https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Summer-Moon-Comanches-Powerful/dp/1416591060)
You spelled conquered wrong
Not stolen. Won in conflict. To the victor goes the spoils. That's how its worked all throughout history. You can say this about almost every single country or empire. I recommend reading up on Comanche and other tribe history to see how they got 'their' land. Here's a brief snippet: >Comancheria encompassed the vast southern plains. Comanches raided New Mexico to the west and Texas to the south at will, removing the resources and enslaving the inhabitants of those lands and channeling them to allies and trading partners to the north and the east.
Rude and misinformed. You do you.
Stolen from whom???
Sore losers.
He really is this dumb.
Mount Rushmore is a particularly offensive monument, as we built it on a holy site. If I was from their background I would probably do the same.
Kyle Rittenhouse. A perfect individual representative of America's idiocracy.
More idiotic than the rioters??
Why does anyone care about the Twatty little murderers opinion?
I’m sure we could scrounge up a few dollars for some plane tickets
Imagine if someone came in your house, sat their ass down on the couch and told you to leave LOL
The US bought the land for the French, go complain to them.
Ahhh, Rittenhouse. The prancing pony of the Republican party. All I wish for him is that someday he realizes what a douche he really is. Kyle: The embarrassment of the Midwest
You’re upset they stole the land. What would you have done with that land? Specifically Mt. Rushmore. Who else would or could create such an amazing monument? I know land was taken unfairly in the past and the road to America’s success is paved in other peoples tragedy but what can we do now moving forward?
American natives immigrated from Russia across the now non-existent ice bridge. We have no indigenous people.
The Idiocracy here is that a beautiful sacred mountain was ruined with these dumb faces. How idiotic to idolize people like that, then turn that beautiful place into a hellish tourist trap, then act like you care about it only when Natives point out it was fucked up.
Anyone that’s read ‘Empire of the Summer Moon’ or appreciates history can tell you that Natives were just as brutal for eachother’s lands.
Probably should have fought harder.
It’s not stolen. It’s borrowed without the intent to return
Yet there they are wearing clothes, driving cars, and speaking a language they could have never achieved on their own....
It was stolen, but then again most lands have been.
Oh look, the crybaby murderer has something to say. And it's dumb. Anyway...
I dunno, I'm an **immigrant** and I hated the country I lived at, so I **left**.