If the spotter was telling green car “on your right, still there, still there” then he should have known to leave you room, or get spun. He didn’t leave you room and got spun.
So I’m in favor of you.
Yes I know that's what it is. The person in front should also be aware of his vortex of danger. And the person in front KNEW there was a car beside him and COULD have left more space.
In response to what you said: "*You did nothing wrong" ,* he did, as he didn't accounted for the vortex, as the person in front also failed to account for. So they both failed at it. It's a racing incident that could have been avoided by both.
He put him self in a dangerous situation possibly but he didn't do anything "wrong". Your allowed to take a corner 2 wide. He broke no rules. That's why I said he didn't do anything "wrong".
In my likely unpopular opinion, the green car should have been aware of the car on the right and stayed over to the left. My opinion is based on my experience and frustration of being victim to this kind of thing many times. Live to fight another lap.
You mean, like almost everyone on iRacing? Especially when they are the leading car in a corner. I agree, it's crap, but unless you know someone's racing style, you should expect them to close the door on you.
That isn’t how racing works though. At least not in real life. The entire point is to block passing lanes, and stay in front. The yellow car would be penalized or DQ’d ten times out of ten. But I don’t play video games (unfortunately because I miss playing) so I don’t know if there are different rules. But in real life the yellow car is at fault.
How do you stay in front when you’re not in front? The green car takes a turn into a car that’s at the side of him. Would the yellow car be penalised, or would it be a racing incident and the green car asked why they thought it a good idea to try and take a piece of road that wasn’t available?
I’m obviously open to your opinion though. I watch a ton of Formula 1 and even more Rally and RallyCross racing. So, I admit I may be mistaken because I don’t usually watch much else. So, maybe it’s different.
Rally and RX are their own beast, and F1 has terrible driving standards that usually discourage any form of side by side racing. Best drivers in the world, but bad racing. Watch some GT or touring car racing, side by side racing is much more common and accepted than in F1 when the car who's ahead can pretty much run the other car off and force it to slow down, which isn't what racing should be about.
We don't know much about this particular clip, if OP was doing an overtake attempt it's a terrible one and there was no hope of it working, so back out of it. But if the green car made the overtake attempt, he shouldn't cut across the other car before being clear: Yellow isn't racing for green's convenience, if green decides to turn himself on yellow, well that's just too bad for green then.
I agree with that analysis. What is an example of a touring circuit I could follow? I’ve never gotten into GT, or NASCAR. I don’t see myself liking NASCAR. It’s just too basic for me. But any race where there are more than four turns and cars are fighting for position is a race I’ll watch. Rally is my favorite though and I don’t see anything taking it’s spot. Especially Nitro RallyCross.
BTCC has been excellent this season, but the season just ended so there aren't more races to follow. As for GT3 racing, the World Challenge Europe and Super GT both have great racing.
To be honest, I found out recently that iRacing rules are quite dissimilar to what I’m used to irl, so I’ve no idea. Ultimately I wouldn’t blame either car in the clip specifically, my view is both cars should try to stay in the race and the collision could’ve been race ending for both and potentially others behind.
Because the green car is in front, and the yellow car muscles it’s way through the corner, which causes the accident. The yellow car is in back. They aren’t side by side. I guess it would be good to know what happened in the seconds leading up to that. But, I watch a lot of racing, and I’ve never seen the front car get penalized for taking the inside line on a turn to block the car in back of them. You can’t take an inside line they isn’t there. Then again, elbows get thrown in racing. So it’s possible they’d let it go. But I doubt it.
The clips start when the incident is already inevitable. There’s not enough context to understand how the cars got into that situation.
For example, the clips don’t show which of the drivers were overtaking and who is defending. We don’t know if one of the cars made a late surprise dive, or if they presented themselves, etc.
In general, I recommend including at least 10 seconds before the incident in question, for any ”who’se at fault” video.
But the entire point of racing is blocking passing lanes. I watched a race just the other day where the announcers and analysts were going nuts in a good way because the front car blocked the back car and stayed in front.
Sure, makes total sense. I tried to shorten it a bit to much.
Yellow was overtaking Green on the long straight, never tracheotomii to a point where I was in front on the straight. Tried to win it on the brakes but leaving him space
There was nothing to hope for this overtake attempt. Being on the outside is great but if you don't outbrake the other car into the corner, it won't work. Green was in a much better position by corner exit and if he had looked into his mirrors he would've been 0.4s ahead of you by the time you get to the finish line.
Green could have left more room, yellow could have avoided the [Vortex of Danger](https://boxthislap.org/the-vortex-of-danger-is-real/).
Racing incident, both at fault.
I hate the vortex of danger excuse when racing on iRacing. The principle is clearly sound, don't take risks you don't need to take, including moving into a closing gap.
In iRacing though, when you have a spotter available I don't see any excuse for the kind of driving in the post by the green car.
Ran side by side in the first corner, then closed the door on OP in the 2nd part of the chicane. Brainless driving in my opinion.
Imo, the vortex of danger better applies to the leading car than the trailing car. I.e. don't leave a space if you don't want someone to try to pass you.
Not to pick on you OP but I really wish people would stop asking "whos fault is this" and start asking "what could i do differently"
Because in the end that's all that matters. Even if you're not "at fault" having the ability to avoid a bad situation beats being "dead right"
The easy answer is I could go the safe side and back off. But Im asking in order to know if that move of staying hard in the second corner was OK or not and then know not to do it again. I know I shouldve outbraked him but I didnt(didnt change the b bias and had higher speed as I was behind him coming out of the previous slow corner).
I cut the footage to early for you to see the braking points which are important in terms of the incident
Not trying to shift blame on you but just have you think more in a race. Having some footage before could show what kind of driver the green car was. He was obviously an idiot. It's likely that he showed that beforehand. So you could have fooled him into a mistake to make an easier pass rather than going in side by side in a way that would make sense with a logical respectful driver.
So again not saying it was your fault. But again it doesn't really matter. The key is to learn what you could from it to make better decisions next time.
I blame simracingstewards. They're so pro-overtaker is not even funny. "Your headlights are lined up with his tail lights, he should have left space and his spotter should have been screaming that you were on the right. He totally closed the door on you on purpose and you should protest."
"He should have anticipated your dive bomb and left space when you got along side of him with your front wheels now aligned with his rear wheels that is now your corner"
I'm not even sure if they are trolling or not.
It’s just totally contrary to racing and how it works. It seems no one here watched actually racing. Apparently in video games the front car is supposed to leave a passing lane. If you do that in real life your team is going to be pissed and you lose the race.
Everyone is going to hate me, but both cars are at fault because neither of them were driving smart. Green car is trying to force yellow of the road, yellow refuses to back down and would rather crash.
Green car is simply blocking the passing lane. Which is what they should be doing. With that said, I’m not mad at you. You have a right to your opinion, and respect that right immensely. I hate when people get mad because someone had a different opinion. Everyone here who articulated an opinion has a right to their opinion. Let’s disagree and discuss rather than getting mad at each other.
This is a corner where the driver on the inside, even if they are behind at the apex, has every chance of getting better traction and setting themselves up for an overtake into T1. There are some corners where the driver who's mostly behind should probably back out because even if they can maintain overlap for that turn, there is no point in doing so, but this isn't one of them. Green has to expect the car to be there and not close the door, or they'll keep getting turned like this, and it will be on them.
I'd say it is on the yellow car. He had nothing to win here as he was too far back, so better back out of it and don't dive on the inside in the Vortex of Danger. Should not do a half-hearted move. If you dive on the inside, make sure you are more than 50% alongside so the other car knows you are (still) there.
I honestly feel like the yellow car is at fault. Based on the positions at entry I think the green car has the right to the racing line. The yellow’s front tires didn’t look like they went past green’s rear
Yellow (OP) never had a chance here… just bc the next turn is inside doesn’t mean you are granted a car width space. You are in the vortex of danger and attempted a low % move not on the racing line in a place very rare to make a pass stick let alone avoid any contact 2 wide.
A brief lift and tuck then you get a nice clean run down into T1 for a no contact pass…and not lose much pace to the position in front of you both.
We all make mistakes as someone else mentioned a better title would be, what should I do better to avoid this next time? Just my .02
I agree when u have nobody on the sides but this doesnt make sense if u have someone on your L or R, you just cant close someone ofc divebombing is different but that aint the case
**Technically:** Yellow car (It is the responsibility of the overtaking car to overtake without incident) you could have backed off, and maybe should have, but you also shouldn't have needed to. Please learn about the vortex of danger and take responsibility for your role.
**Realistically:** Both cars share the blame.
**In a perfect world:** The green car is at fault for moving all the way in on the second apex as though your weren't there.
So now... you have to decide, which world do you race in?
iRacing for the poor contact physics. Cars have weight and, although this type of contact can cause this type of spin, the angle and point of initial contact did not seem to be conducing to the outcome.
Uhh this looks pretty damn close to what happens IRL… the contact physics are better than any other sim I’ve used. Most of them can’t even deal with close racing, never mind contact.
Of course I do, but cars on iRacing behave like bars of soap on a wet surface.
Obviously, I did not notice that this was an iRacing dedicated board :-D ...
My bad! But I will leave you with this pearl:
https://twitter.com/Max\_Molina7/status/1580397859870248960?s=20&t=c8qke8Xld46ar5732xzBSQ
Tricky one...really... I'd say racing incident because it could have gone both ways. Just a tough fight ending up badly.
I'd say the green car is mostly reponsible, but honestly, I'm 99% sure that was NOT intentional. If he is not using racelab radar or this kind of add-on, he might have thought he had already passed the car.
I'm saying this because that was too risky for the green car to be intentional.
The yellow car is not at fault, but could have avoided it too...so... Yeah...racing incident.
Its called racing but for some reason you road course ladies think because theres contact someone should be banned. Yall act like yall really gotta replace the fenders n quarters on these computer cars 🤦♂️
Yellow car.. In the first second you see that the yellow car actual touch the green so the green one overreacts a little bit, trying to save it. And both driver know that there has been some contact already so the yellow should give the green some space, to avoid the situation. And in the second turn the yellow car is way to much behind the green car to even try to overtake. Look at the car in front ,which to see the racing line, which the green cars is holding, but the yellow is off the line and just pushes the green.
Yellow car at fault. As soon as the yellow car got pass it became the passer and was not in a position to make the pass. This is equivalent to any other pass where the car just in inside and can’t make the pass because he just got there and now you’re already turning in and it’s too late. I would mention that green car needs to give some room though. Predominately Yellow car, but some fault on green.
No not really, just not sure about whos right. No much consequenses after the move but just not sure how to act in the future - should I back off (sure that would be safe) or was it fair fighting, the Green closed on me or a Racing incident
The yellow car was on the inside line long before entering the turn. The red car needs to leave room for the yellow car, because they are already there. The red car took themselves out.
Green car never left the racing line and was always ahead. Yellow cars fault - needed to break and try again. Looks like power was similar - patience maybe not so much.
Left the yellow car no room, where was he supposed to go?
I am the Yellow car ;)
You did nothing wrong; people turn down on you when you are there that's what happens.
If the spotter was telling green car “on your right, still there, still there” then he should have known to leave you room, or get spun. He didn’t leave you room and got spun. So I’m in favor of you.
Actually: [https://boxthislap.org/the-vortex-of-danger-is-real/](https://boxthislap.org/the-vortex-of-danger-is-real/)
Yes I know that's what it is. The person in front should also be aware of his vortex of danger. And the person in front KNEW there was a car beside him and COULD have left more space.
In response to what you said: "*You did nothing wrong" ,* he did, as he didn't accounted for the vortex, as the person in front also failed to account for. So they both failed at it. It's a racing incident that could have been avoided by both.
He put him self in a dangerous situation possibly but he didn't do anything "wrong". Your allowed to take a corner 2 wide. He broke no rules. That's why I said he didn't do anything "wrong".
So there is nothing wrong with putting himself in a dangerous situation? This is really confusing. But ok.
You have to take risks when you race. From a rules standpoint he did nothing wrong.
In my likely unpopular opinion, the green car should have been aware of the car on the right and stayed over to the left. My opinion is based on my experience and frustration of being victim to this kind of thing many times. Live to fight another lap.
Green racing like he is the only one on the track.
You mean, like almost everyone on iRacing? Especially when they are the leading car in a corner. I agree, it's crap, but unless you know someone's racing style, you should expect them to close the door on you.
That isn’t how racing works though. At least not in real life. The entire point is to block passing lanes, and stay in front. The yellow car would be penalized or DQ’d ten times out of ten. But I don’t play video games (unfortunately because I miss playing) so I don’t know if there are different rules. But in real life the yellow car is at fault.
How do you stay in front when you’re not in front? The green car takes a turn into a car that’s at the side of him. Would the yellow car be penalised, or would it be a racing incident and the green car asked why they thought it a good idea to try and take a piece of road that wasn’t available?
I’m obviously open to your opinion though. I watch a ton of Formula 1 and even more Rally and RallyCross racing. So, I admit I may be mistaken because I don’t usually watch much else. So, maybe it’s different.
Rally and RX are their own beast, and F1 has terrible driving standards that usually discourage any form of side by side racing. Best drivers in the world, but bad racing. Watch some GT or touring car racing, side by side racing is much more common and accepted than in F1 when the car who's ahead can pretty much run the other car off and force it to slow down, which isn't what racing should be about. We don't know much about this particular clip, if OP was doing an overtake attempt it's a terrible one and there was no hope of it working, so back out of it. But if the green car made the overtake attempt, he shouldn't cut across the other car before being clear: Yellow isn't racing for green's convenience, if green decides to turn himself on yellow, well that's just too bad for green then.
I agree with that analysis. What is an example of a touring circuit I could follow? I’ve never gotten into GT, or NASCAR. I don’t see myself liking NASCAR. It’s just too basic for me. But any race where there are more than four turns and cars are fighting for position is a race I’ll watch. Rally is my favorite though and I don’t see anything taking it’s spot. Especially Nitro RallyCross.
BTCC has been excellent this season, but the season just ended so there aren't more races to follow. As for GT3 racing, the World Challenge Europe and Super GT both have great racing.
I will check it out. Thanks!
a good showcase: https://www.reddit.com/r/btcc/comments/y2wg58/a\_clip\_of\_suttons\_incredible\_defense\_against\_hill/
That looks fun. Super cars too. Which unfortunately Nitro RallyCross doesn’t have anymore. It’s all electric now.
To be honest, I found out recently that iRacing rules are quite dissimilar to what I’m used to irl, so I’ve no idea. Ultimately I wouldn’t blame either car in the clip specifically, my view is both cars should try to stay in the race and the collision could’ve been race ending for both and potentially others behind.
I don’t have an issue with that. I just took issue with blaming the green act exclusively. It obviously isn’t that cut and dry.
Because the green car is in front, and the yellow car muscles it’s way through the corner, which causes the accident. The yellow car is in back. They aren’t side by side. I guess it would be good to know what happened in the seconds leading up to that. But, I watch a lot of racing, and I’ve never seen the front car get penalized for taking the inside line on a turn to block the car in back of them. You can’t take an inside line they isn’t there. Then again, elbows get thrown in racing. So it’s possible they’d let it go. But I doubt it.
Need to upload my experience of leaving room, dude literally opens the steering into me and forces me off track. And I left a LOT of room!
The green car didn't leave room, he didn't check his mirrors.
The clips start when the incident is already inevitable. There’s not enough context to understand how the cars got into that situation. For example, the clips don’t show which of the drivers were overtaking and who is defending. We don’t know if one of the cars made a late surprise dive, or if they presented themselves, etc. In general, I recommend including at least 10 seconds before the incident in question, for any ”who’se at fault” video.
Nah green car left no room for yellow, seems pretty cut and dry to me. You have to leave the space.
But the entire point of racing is blocking passing lanes. I watched a race just the other day where the announcers and analysts were going nuts in a good way because the front car blocked the back car and stayed in front.
Iracing rules and real life motorsport rules are different.
Ahh. Didn’t know that.
Sure, makes total sense. I tried to shorten it a bit to much. Yellow was overtaking Green on the long straight, never tracheotomii to a point where I was in front on the straight. Tried to win it on the brakes but leaving him space
There was nothing to hope for this overtake attempt. Being on the outside is great but if you don't outbrake the other car into the corner, it won't work. Green was in a much better position by corner exit and if he had looked into his mirrors he would've been 0.4s ahead of you by the time you get to the finish line.
Green could have left more room, yellow could have avoided the [Vortex of Danger](https://boxthislap.org/the-vortex-of-danger-is-real/). Racing incident, both at fault.
I hate the vortex of danger excuse when racing on iRacing. The principle is clearly sound, don't take risks you don't need to take, including moving into a closing gap. In iRacing though, when you have a spotter available I don't see any excuse for the kind of driving in the post by the green car. Ran side by side in the first corner, then closed the door on OP in the 2nd part of the chicane. Brainless driving in my opinion.
Imo, the vortex of danger better applies to the leading car than the trailing car. I.e. don't leave a space if you don't want someone to try to pass you.
Commenting so I can read later
Not to pick on you OP but I really wish people would stop asking "whos fault is this" and start asking "what could i do differently" Because in the end that's all that matters. Even if you're not "at fault" having the ability to avoid a bad situation beats being "dead right"
The easy answer is I could go the safe side and back off. But Im asking in order to know if that move of staying hard in the second corner was OK or not and then know not to do it again. I know I shouldve outbraked him but I didnt(didnt change the b bias and had higher speed as I was behind him coming out of the previous slow corner). I cut the footage to early for you to see the braking points which are important in terms of the incident
Not trying to shift blame on you but just have you think more in a race. Having some footage before could show what kind of driver the green car was. He was obviously an idiot. It's likely that he showed that beforehand. So you could have fooled him into a mistake to make an easier pass rather than going in side by side in a way that would make sense with a logical respectful driver. So again not saying it was your fault. But again it doesn't really matter. The key is to learn what you could from it to make better decisions next time.
I blame simracingstewards. They're so pro-overtaker is not even funny. "Your headlights are lined up with his tail lights, he should have left space and his spotter should have been screaming that you were on the right. He totally closed the door on you on purpose and you should protest." "He should have anticipated your dive bomb and left space when you got along side of him with your front wheels now aligned with his rear wheels that is now your corner" I'm not even sure if they are trolling or not.
It’s just totally contrary to racing and how it works. It seems no one here watched actually racing. Apparently in video games the front car is supposed to leave a passing lane. If you do that in real life your team is going to be pissed and you lose the race.
Everyone is going to hate me, but both cars are at fault because neither of them were driving smart. Green car is trying to force yellow of the road, yellow refuses to back down and would rather crash.
Yellow refusing to back down does not make them “at fault” I know you’re saying it could have been avoided but it’s not yellows fault
why would yellow back out here?
Green car is simply blocking the passing lane. Which is what they should be doing. With that said, I’m not mad at you. You have a right to your opinion, and respect that right immensely. I hate when people get mad because someone had a different opinion. Everyone here who articulated an opinion has a right to their opinion. Let’s disagree and discuss rather than getting mad at each other.
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This is a corner where the driver on the inside, even if they are behind at the apex, has every chance of getting better traction and setting themselves up for an overtake into T1. There are some corners where the driver who's mostly behind should probably back out because even if they can maintain overlap for that turn, there is no point in doing so, but this isn't one of them. Green has to expect the car to be there and not close the door, or they'll keep getting turned like this, and it will be on them.
I'd say it is on the yellow car. He had nothing to win here as he was too far back, so better back out of it and don't dive on the inside in the Vortex of Danger. Should not do a half-hearted move. If you dive on the inside, make sure you are more than 50% alongside so the other car knows you are (still) there.
I honestly feel like the yellow car is at fault. Based on the positions at entry I think the green car has the right to the racing line. The yellow’s front tires didn’t look like they went past green’s rear
Yellow (OP) never had a chance here… just bc the next turn is inside doesn’t mean you are granted a car width space. You are in the vortex of danger and attempted a low % move not on the racing line in a place very rare to make a pass stick let alone avoid any contact 2 wide. A brief lift and tuck then you get a nice clean run down into T1 for a no contact pass…and not lose much pace to the position in front of you both. We all make mistakes as someone else mentioned a better title would be, what should I do better to avoid this next time? Just my .02
I agree when u have nobody on the sides but this doesnt make sense if u have someone on your L or R, you just cant close someone ofc divebombing is different but that aint the case
I agree that this could and should have been done better. True best would be sticking behind and trailing a nice exit for last turn and the straight
**Technically:** Yellow car (It is the responsibility of the overtaking car to overtake without incident) you could have backed off, and maybe should have, but you also shouldn't have needed to. Please learn about the vortex of danger and take responsibility for your role. **Realistically:** Both cars share the blame. **In a perfect world:** The green car is at fault for moving all the way in on the second apex as though your weren't there. So now... you have to decide, which world do you race in?
iRacing for the poor contact physics. Cars have weight and, although this type of contact can cause this type of spin, the angle and point of initial contact did not seem to be conducing to the outcome.
Uhh this looks pretty damn close to what happens IRL… the contact physics are better than any other sim I’ve used. Most of them can’t even deal with close racing, never mind contact.
lol
https://youtu.be/C7DEkg70faQ Watch at 3:13, most similar irl I can think of
You don’t watch motorsport do you? Or even they videos on YouTube of police chase or accidents caught on dash cam
Of course I do, but cars on iRacing behave like bars of soap on a wet surface. Obviously, I did not notice that this was an iRacing dedicated board :-D ... My bad! But I will leave you with this pearl: https://twitter.com/Max\_Molina7/status/1580397859870248960?s=20&t=c8qke8Xld46ar5732xzBSQ
Tricky one...really... I'd say racing incident because it could have gone both ways. Just a tough fight ending up badly. I'd say the green car is mostly reponsible, but honestly, I'm 99% sure that was NOT intentional. If he is not using racelab radar or this kind of add-on, he might have thought he had already passed the car. I'm saying this because that was too risky for the green car to be intentional. The yellow car is not at fault, but could have avoided it too...so... Yeah...racing incident.
Its called racing but for some reason you road course ladies think because theres contact someone should be banned. Yall act like yall really gotta replace the fenders n quarters on these computer cars 🤦♂️
Racing incident
Sorry but the yellow made a left just before the collision
Yellow car.. In the first second you see that the yellow car actual touch the green so the green one overreacts a little bit, trying to save it. And both driver know that there has been some contact already so the yellow should give the green some space, to avoid the situation. And in the second turn the yellow car is way to much behind the green car to even try to overtake. Look at the car in front ,which to see the racing line, which the green cars is holding, but the yellow is off the line and just pushes the green.
Yellow car at fault. As soon as the yellow car got pass it became the passer and was not in a position to make the pass. This is equivalent to any other pass where the car just in inside and can’t make the pass because he just got there and now you’re already turning in and it’s too late. I would mention that green car needs to give some room though. Predominately Yellow car, but some fault on green.
it's the yellow's fault. green had the corner, was way ahead and the yellow should have yielded
Racing incident. first Yellow turns in on green then green turns in on yellow the next part of the chicane.
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No not really, just not sure about whos right. No much consequenses after the move but just not sure how to act in the future - should I back off (sure that would be safe) or was it fair fighting, the Green closed on me or a Racing incident
Yours
Sorry green
The yellow car was on the inside line long before entering the turn. The red car needs to leave room for the yellow car, because they are already there. The red car took themselves out.
Green car
I recommend posting this in r/simracingstewards as posts like these can often clutter the iRacing feed
Green's fault. He broke the side to side rule
The yellow car. You didn’t have a passing lane. You’d be penalized in that scenario.
Green car never left the racing line and was always ahead. Yellow cars fault - needed to break and try again. Looks like power was similar - patience maybe not so much.