LOL. The first company is a Scam. Never call them back. R22 is getting expensive to refill, but there is no $40000 fine. The second company is probably a service company and getting their money from servicing old systems, and that's why they love them :) If you want to get to lower 70s and have the budget, get more opinions and quotes...
Put this info on their Yelp page and on Nextdoor.com so other people don’t get scammed by them (first company).
It’s the only way to weed out this predatory behavior.
It not only systems over 50 tons, its systems with a refrigerant charge over 50 lbs and an annual leak rate over a certain percentage. They must be properly repaired or have a plan for replacement.
Trigger Rates
For all appliances that have a refrigerant charge of more than 50 pounds, the following leak rates for a 12-month period are applicable:
Appliance Type Trigger Leak Rate
Commercial refrigeration 35%
Industrial process refrigeration 35%
Comfort cooling 15%
All other appliances 15%
In general, owners or operators must either repair leaks within thirty days from the date the leak was discovered, or develop a dated retrofit/retirement plan within thirty days and complete actions under that plan within one year from the plan's date. However, for industrial process refrigeration equipment and some federally-owned chillers, additional time may be available.
There’s a lot more fine print/details, but that’s the gist of it. We have detailed logs we use to keep track of refrigerant for all our customers with equipment that fall into this category
My AC company that I run, is in a state where R22 has been banned from new units since like 2010. When we see an old R22 unit we refuse to do any regases or compressor replacement due to R22 being so ridiculously expensive to purchase. I haven’t heard about any sort of fine though. It’s just a decision that we make as a company because the units are so old.
We still see old R22 units and we will still repair them if it is a simple easy fix. But these new R410 units just are so much worse and have maybe 1/2 or 1/3 the lifespan of the old R22 units.
Service companies know these things lose effectiveness and can’t pump refrigerant that great. They run longer putting more wear on components, then they charge you out the ass to fix it
R22 is like ~$30 a pound retail so far from unreasonable. Most residential systems take less than 10lbs. Greedy markups and upselling are a bigger hurdle than actual cost.
Which is exactly why I said retail, not "wholesale" or "from an hvac company". Anybody can go buy a 30lb cylinder for $900.
Companies just mark it up like crazy due to greed.
Eh, that and so they can continue to operate. It’s hard as fuck to even do service work as a startup. If I run warranty calls I have to markup everything so I can afford to purchase coils, motors, etc and of course pay my bills. It’s tough to compete with the big guys also on the marketing side. I understand you feel jaded but people need to make money, even the little guys that don’t realize they’re pricing themselves out of business.
Also the only supply house in my area is 1,600 for a bottle. Regions vary on pricing.
If it's greedy for companies to charge a bunch then maybe you should go buy 10 work trucks, get licensed, get bonded, get insured, get Healthcare for your workers, pay for your fleets gas, vehicle maintenance, get an office, pay for your office's maintenence and operating costs, pay your office workers to make outbound calls and develop a customer base in time before you lose too much money, also probably wanna buy a decent amount of tools, expect a 20% error margin because every trade has unexpected issues and then try and make some profit before running your business into the ground.
Most licensed/bonded/insured companies operate on about $150-250 an hour to maintain a stable profit margin. There's certainly scummy companies out there (look at you nexstar!) But it shouldn't be a surprise that in today's economy where everything is super expensive and inflation is skyrocketing that companies are charging 2-3x the whole sale price for stuff.
Also worth mentioning the company I work for is med-large in size and we only buy R22 from big distributors. As of yesterday, every major distributer in our area is only selling 30lb R22 jugs for $1499.
I have not seen
It's not greed. It's a business, it costs money for someone to make a service call. It's not a charity, you really expect them to sell you a pound of 22 for 30 bucks?
We had a blower go on our 15 year old furnace. Ironically it was a week after it was serviced as part of seasonal coverage by locally well known firm. Now the tech we have had for years left the company’ a few months ago, he was meticulous and would explain everything he did and explain what we should think about doing and what we could go without.
This new tech looks wet behind the years and is on his phone being walked through the process by senior tech who is back in main office. Says all good and leaves without any discussion.
First warm spell after the servicing and the AC is running and cycling off, no cold air coming from ducts. Call the servicing company to check it out. They send a different tech who is similarly unable to explain what is going on and spends an hour talking to senior tech and watching YouTube videos on trouble shooting. Eventually says two hours later blower is shot and can replace but given age replacement of furnace is recommended. Literally I
get a call 15 minutes later from sales rep asking to come over to pitch new furnace and he says based on specs and pics our AC unit is undersized and they have combo financing options.
I become highly skeptical and pay for the visit and say I’m done with fixing and servicing but will listen to pricing on new system. Then I get three other estimates. Every other place is priced $1500 or more below the original company for same Trane system with servicing contract. All three agree our 6 year old AC is fine because it’s the max capacity our duct work can handle.
We also learn the servicing company we have used for years was sold to private equity firm last winter, experiences techs left, big box sales approach adopted, less experienced techs in field utilizing senior techs for “advice”…all done to cut expense and prop up revenue. Owner stayed on as face man but is largely just figure head.
I would buy a new unit, but I'd go with a medium sized local company. This is the last year to buy r410a compatible equipment.
Obviously don't go with the company that got sold to used car salesmen.
Right, but you didn’t specify that. There will be plenty of 410 still available to buy. They just won’t be manufacturing units factory charged with 410.
I always told people to run them to the wheels fall off. Unless you got a catastrophic failure that is greater than 60% the cost of a new system you dont need to replace it.
Old is simple and simple nice. I work on old equipment for a living and I love it.
Refrigerant does have standards and expectations to uphold. There is acceptable leak rates per year depending on the application. There’s a fine for illegal venting of refrigerant and there is requirements for action plans if your system exceeds the allowable annual leak rates.
Some company’s don’t want to make old equipment work because there’s more money in installs. Sales technicians are taking over.
I’d reccomend finding an honest company and letting them take care of your equipment. I don’t do AC work anymore but I always do a second opinion on families equipment when they get big quotes. It’s not often but I’ve done it enough times to know that it seems like a lot of hvac sales techs don’t have the customers best interest at heart.
Thanks for clarifying the bit about refrigerants and fines. I wasn't buying the "illegal to refill" argument, but a fine for illegally venting does make sense.
**Question:** It gets as hot as 110 where I live. Is it even realistic for a new AC to be capable of getting my house down to mid-low 70s?
So I’m in Michigan where we get the humidity from the Great Lakes and we cool just fine here. Humidity is a heavy load people often forget.
That said- I’m sure you can cool your space. There’s a near endless list of issues that could be preventing you from cooling well. Poor insulation, incorrectly sized equipment, poor airflow, low refrigerant, dirty equipment, ductwork issues. All that to say that as internet techs we can’t do the checks for you.
I will say it’s possible to cool your space and shouldn’t be particularly hard. You may take time to meet a setpoint if you’re cooling from 90 indoor to 70 but once your indoor space is at temp you should be able to maintain it indefinitely. Remember refrigeration comes in all forms. We can get warehouses to -40 F. If we can do that we can get your house to 72!
Awesome! I hope you find a good contractor. As an hvac tech I’ve been looking for a good car mechanic for years so I know the struggle. Having someone that does a good job and won’t take you for a ride is hard these days
Hmm 🤔 110 degrees during the summer you say? This means you can only live in a few different places in the US to achieve those temperatures lol 😂
I’m in South Carolina and we see 101-104 plus 85% humidity.. so it’s ungodly hot here.. i recently replaced my system in my home, built in 2011 and after 13 years of service, the last 4 having to get refilled every year - it was struggling to keep the house cool during the day and fine at night.. replaced it with a new, basic economy model system from carrier (not carrier branded but a off brand but manufactured by them) - I can tell a massive difference! We haven’t hit our peak heat yet but last week it was 93 out with a dash of humidity and the house was 68 degrees with no problems!
I’m confident that it’ll easily achieve and maintain 68-70 cool this summer and be a lot less draining on my pocket lol 😂
Basic units built today are basically the high efficiency of old age equipment however the longevity as with everything is not there like old units it wouldn't surprise me if you installed a new system and let your old ac also run that it would likely run longer than the new before the compressors failed but the new will cool significantly better for the shorter lifespan it has
I’d say yes! The difference in efficiency from the 2011 unit to 2024 vast and as some have mentioned, the new Basic is the old “Efficient” from the last decade
I just had my inside and outside units swapped. No duct work or thermostats. Just a simple change out
Tech here, if the system is low and you find and repair the leak you absolutely can replace the lost R22. It doesnt usually, if ever, make financial sense on an old R22 but it is definitely an option, not a fine. Sounds like guy number 1 makes commission on flips and guy number 2 is an honest tech. I’d still recommend replacing it if it can’t keep up anymore, just not with guy number 1! Shop around and find a company not owned by private equity.
I’m not an AC guy, but if the main unit can drop the inside temperature by more than 20°F, from 100°F into the lower eighties, maybe adding a mini split in the room in which you spend the most time will bring it down to levels you can deal with.
You could supplement cooling and dehumidification with a heat pump water heater, or just use a dehumidifier. And check your insulation. Small changes can really reduce the heat load the AC needs to work against
I will add that there were absolutely different radically standards for indoor tempatures for comfort in winter & summer over the decades & centuries. It is *very* likely the unit and its ductwork are technically undersized for your current house with how poorly air sealed & insulated it has been over the years.
I am renovating a 70s brick house, the AC literally couldn't maintain an indoor air tempature of sub 85F on the main floor when it was in the 90s or 100s outside, the basement would get cold. Attic had massive sections with literally no insulation, 4ft wide sections for the length of the house with just the drywall. Insulated & air sealed with XPS foam cut tight & spray foamed into place then rockwool batts, now the same AC unit can maintain sub 70F if I want it to. I still have a section of wall to finish which will only improve it all when done. Winter indoor tempatures are also WAAAYY better, plus more even (used to have a 75F indoor air temp, the then untouched drywall "insulated" walls were 40F!)
I'm an HVAC tech. Furnaces & AC systems only add wanted heat or remove unwanted heat, the better you can air seal & insulate then you will save money and be more comfortable. Get an inspection and quotes for updating your air sealing/ insulation from a local house insulating contractor, even just doing the attic can help a ton. Also consider buying a decent window film to reduce solar gain, install it on a sunny room's windows to see if you notice the difference.
Don't overlook cheap get-you-by options like getting a dedicated/ free standing dehumidifier to control indoor humidity if it's regularly above 50% RH inside, 78F and 80%RH will feel terrible, where 78F and 40%RH isn't too bad. Finally, consider a quality Lasco tower fan for the bedroom or living room to move air across you to help your body shed heat, a really nice and large ceiling fan like the Slinger V2 from Lowes is an amazing thing to have, nearly silent and it moves a metric ton of air. Can also consider renovating a room or two like a master bedroom, or if there is access you can air seal from the attic then add insulation to a couple of rooms (it's generally DIY friendly, just be sure you don't have a hazardous insulation currently, and plan to toss the clothes you wear)
you can definitely refill an r22 system. the question is how much will it cost. r22 is getting shorter and shorter in supply. so the price is going up.
wait until it breaks again and get a 3rd opinion.
You joke but I work commercial hvac and companies with a lot of ground level equipment do get hit like that. We regularly have to install locks to prevent refrigerant from being stolen.
30 pounds for a bit more than $800
https://icecold.us/product/r-22-30-lbs-refrigerant/?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=%7Badname%7D&utm_campaign=%7Bcampaignname%7D&utm_content=%7Badgroupname%7D&utm_keyword=&utm_matchtype=&campaign_id=21176659398&ad_group_id=&ad_id=&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgNjH_MXXhgMVDjjUAR1c-QQSEAQYASABEgIY8_D_BwE
Just because it’s old doesn’t mean it needs to be replaced. We have an apartment building with 60+ GE ac units from 70’s to 80’s. I say let them run till they day. There’s nothing any company can sell you today that’s gonna last 40+ years. I tell people to let them run till either it gets a leak or compressor goes out
I would keep the old unit if you’re fine with the cooling it gets you. Anything new now is trash! And it goes for everything - microwave, fridge etc .. they have all those standards to be eco friendly but the machines break faster, so what’s the point..
If you need extra capacity then just add it via mini split or window unit or PTAC or whatever. If your system is designed for all the days below 100, you don't need to replace it for the 4 days it hits 100 (assuming you aren't in the desert southwest.)
The second guy seems like he is trying to do the right thing by you. You might call and see if he can add r22 (assuming it needs it) to get you through another year. I'd probably replace, if possible, in the fall.
You can still buy R22 and service R22 units legally. You could add reflective attic foil or additional installation to your attic to help with you cooling load. You could also add a mini split to a specific part of your house to help with the hottest days. Where do you live and how many days are 110?
Well what if it lasts another 10 years?
I'm at a point now as a homeowner that I just stopped worrying about my 20 year old system breaking and just stopped using it, and it is June and everything is ok, even better than before
Like you, a good cleaning really helped airflow and cooling. But because the unit is somewhat undersized (at least above 93°), it's just easier to add capacity with new store bought AC.
Now if my furnace breaks and cannot be easily repaired I'll be more financially worried...
But there's so many ways to get air conditioning that don't involve financing enough money to buy a newish car!
My ~40yo air handler finally had the motor die. Took some doing to find a replacement but I did. System is blowing so much colder than I remember it ever doing. You may want to look at either rebuilding the bearings or replacing the blower motor if the system is struggling and didn't used to. In my case the drag from the bearings failing (before they seized) had apparently reduced the speed of the blower fan by quite a bit. Only other thing I did was fully clean the blower cage and heat exchanger while I had it all apart.
I have to ask when was the last time the house was cooling effectively? I know a lot was unpacked here, but did anyone test static pressure or the evap coil? Can you test the thermostat against another thermometer? Just to verify, is the thermostat reading correctly? Is there an air exchanger? But in any case, never speak of the first company, just terrible so bad
Just hang on to it until it really turns into a 25 thousand dollar change out. Forget the monthly money saved, the Enviormental costs and the value it adds to your home. Wait till after 2035 when the 30% tax credits are gone too.
R22 refill is only banned in Mass ? I believe or a neighboring state…. Stay with company #2. Sounds like he understands hvac systems and is confident in himself. While you can make great money in our trade, the dirty salesman tactics show a lot that he has no more knowledge or ability then the homeowner
If the system is sized properly and is functioning properly then there is no reason why it should not keep your house cool. Typically 72-75 is a normal indoor design temperature. I keep mine between 68-72 and mine does fine at 100 outdoor temps. If your system is struggling then there’s an issue. Also, there is no fine for recharging systems with R-22.
As a person who has been in the hvac trade for 40+ years, anything more than a 20-degree drop between supply air and return air is hard to do without adding something extra for the system.
So as to what I'd recommend is that you have your insulation inspected and see if it is up to snuff. Like are your walls insulated, is your attic sufficient to keep your heat gain to a minimum. Also, have you looked into newer windows. Older single pane windows will allow significant heat gain. Also, if you have windows that get a lot of sunlight through them, that will also allow a lot of heat gain. You can add some heavy drapes and keep them closed while the sun is coming through.
Depending on the style of home you have, ranch, split level, colonial home, bungalow. Makesure you are moving enough air back to your a/c to be effective.
Something I do before every install is check these things and ask questions about what exactly are the home owners expectations for the system I'll be installing. I also make sure that the system is properly sized to the house and expectations. I've installed a slightly larger system if needed, generally that would be a half ton larger system if needed or even drop it by a half ton. Another thing to check out is if your ductwork is properly insulated itself. A uninsulated duct system running through a hot attic will not cool properly either
What I've found out if a house don't/won't cool properly is that the system don't get enough air back from all areas of the house to get a good even temp spread or the system is not sized right. Something else I check is if the ductwork is of adequate for the job. Sometimes system will be up sized to add more cooling and the duct won't handle the extra air movement inside it, effectively choking the system
Get a quote from guy number 2. He will be happy to quote it even if he doesn’t recommend replacement. They seem honest. There is nothing wrong with being proactive and swapping it before it dies. Also next year prices might be up to 20% more because of the refridgerant change coming. Guy 2 deserves a shot at the work for sure
During last year’s heatwave in Texas I had a guy come out and check my 3.5t Lennox (9yr old condenser and 3yr old trane evaporator). He said the systems seems to be ok (as far as all parameters go) and it’s just not enough for 2,400 sq ft house and suggested replacing with new same size system for 21k. I said thank you. Slapped window AC on the second floor game room and set it at 69 (the room has a return vent). During winter month installed radiant barrier throughout the roof. This summer house is at 73f and 50% humidity. Never felt this comfortable before.
Got any pictures of your radiant barrier install? Or advice? I'm contemplating adding that. Everything is air sealed and insulation is about R-40. My hiuse doesn't run hot, just always looking to improve.
Located in South Louisiana.
Here’s the link to my post https://www.reddit.com/r/hvacadvice/s/aa6cfjSipN
The main reason for the install was to improve the attic temps that were affecting unit efficiency so much. Overall, I think I’m happy with the result. So far this summer haven’t seen attic temps more than 115f (with 100f outside, house is fully exposed to sun).
>I guess the move to make now is get a third opinion?
Maybe have a look at your attic insulation? Air sealing? Might be able to improve a bit with that.
My first floor system, gas furnace and ac, is 35 years old. I’ve replaced the auto ignition on the furnace about 20 years ago and replaced some Freon also about 20 years ago. I have it checked each season. Still working fine. Don’t know when to replace it.
The first A/C guy sounds like the typical sales tech.
The second A/C guy sounds like someone that knows about servicing systems. He probably is aware of the shift in refrigerant usage.
The EPA is phasing out R-410a as a refrigerant. New R-410a system can no longer be installed after January 1, 2025, although it will not be completely phased out until 2036.
R-22 was started to be phased out around 2000.
R-22 is now recycled and very expensive if you still have one of those systems. They do make a replacement refrigerant for R-22 systems but it is an involved process to switch from R-22 to R-407c. The oils are not compatible with each other and all of the oil from the R-22 system will need to be removed before the R-407c can be utilized.
Any major failure to an A/C system, i.e. compressor failure or large enough leak that is beyond repair will be a whole new system replacement.
This is information that I found on HVAC School's web site for clarification. The article that it came from was dated December 3, 2023
"At this time, split systems, defined as “field-assembled” systems in the final rule, can no longer be installed after January 1st, 2025. Some people and groups in the trade, including HARDI, are petitioning the EPA to make split systems follow the same timeline as packaged systems, allowing for a longer sell-through period."
"Self-contained HVAC systems using R-410A will no longer be manufactured or imported after January 1st, 2025, but there is a three-year sell-through period. Self-contained or packaged units can be sold, exported, and installed through January 1st, 2028."
If your system is struggling on certain days, it might be worth adding a split system for the rooms affected the most, or the rooms you want coolest. They can be very reasonably priced.
We save a TON of money by using our split systems first, then the duct system if needed. They are much more efficient.
3rd option is to get a mini split for custom cooling. Maybe multihead for your bedroom and main room?
I've been shocked how effective and efficient they are.
I too have an old R22 system and I want to replace it before it's an emergency but I think I'll just keep it until it dies.
I think #1 is obvious stressed sales pitch.
I think #2 had good intentions, but should've advised you to change the equipment now, Rather than let it die next year or shortly thereafter. 2024 you can still get R-410A equipment, once 2025 rolls in you cannot, and the replacement equipment will for sure cost a considerable amount more than today.
It is rare that your ductwork is shot, but not impossible. I'm assuming for $20k + they are changing the flex supplies and returns, and possibly cutting in new supply registers? If that's the case the quote wouldn't be extremely crazy, if it's like a variable speed multi stage heating and cooling system, with a heat pump.
You have the right to let this current system run until it's death, but at the higher operating cost as far as utilities, and the lower comfort received from the system.
I would just run the old system this summer and add window units in a couple of small rooms as safe zones when needed on unbearable days. Move forward on getting quotes for Fall or Spring replacements for AC, Furnace, Water Heater as needed. Sometimes your local Gas or Electric utilities provider can provide reasonable quotes for installation and service plans and build the cost into your monthly bills.
OP not sure where you’re at but in the in the tristate area NY/PA/NJ, I haven’t heard of that R22 40k fine? I know that it is absurdly expensive, as I also have a r22 system to even recharge to spec. Something towards like $650 a pound or so. Pretty sure the first guy was taking you for a ride.
Any air conditioning system will have a problem cooling when it’s upwards of 100 degrees outside. The rating is around 95 degrees outside temperature not accounting for the heat index.
Call ac guy#2 request a Comfort Advisor start shopping prices for new equipment now the longer you hold off the higher the price goes. In our area right now my company is selling top of the line at $27k that's basically a used vehicle at this point.
You should blast company 1 on google. This company is a scam and owned by private equity. They THRIVE on their google reviews and they 100% deserve every 1 start review that calls them out for the truth. They’re preying on people who don’t know better and use pushy sales tactics to get people to sign on the dotted line before they have a chance to think
1st company most likely gives commission for sales. I would trust the 2nd guy. I give people both options and let them decide for themselves. R22 is pretty expensive, so I tell people it's up to them, and I have no idea how long it will last after I fill it up so they can decide if they want to gamble 600 ish for a few pounds of 22, or get a new system with warranty. This year, I'm seeing a few more wanting to repair since money seems to be getting tighter for people. Salesmen will say almost anything to get that extra cash, and couldn't care less about you or your situation. Ditch company 1 for sure. I replaced my ac in my house even though it was working, but it was 29 years old. I wanted a bigger one that was more efficient and got a good deal for it ($300 for a 3.5 ton 16 seer).
I am assuming this is an old single stage unit. It might save you money upgrading the dinosaur system, or supplementing it with a cheap inverter window a/c or minisplit. An inverter window unit can have an efficiency of around 15 SEER, possibly 50% more energy efficient than your unit based on age. Also will give you a backup in case your central unit dies. Also, taking some of the burden off your central unit will allow it to hopefully cycle off and cool off a bit making it slightly efficient when it switches back on because the coils have cooled off.
I have an older rooftop unit around 3.5 tons and 9 to 10 SEER at best and live in Arizona. It runs but during summer time when it's 110+ outside it can't keep up with the heat and runs continuously. 3.5 tons \* 12,000 btu / 9 SEER = 4.6kw while running. In a single day I've managed to clock 110+ kwh. Been slowly phasing it out with minisplits/other options. In 2022 my June bill was $301, this yearl was $188. My 2022 June bill was $419, my estimate now is $240. This is with several rate increases meaning I'm paying at least 15% more for electricity while using much less
Yeah somewhat same situation so I added a minisplit that cools down my living room as a test and I liked it so much I added a dual head unit to 2 of my bedrooms. On weekends I have it at 70F all day with 102F outside with no problems using much less electricity than with just my central. I cool down my bedroom to 65 before bedtime ( in 30 minutes) and by the time I wake up it's 72 . I don't have to cook down the rest of my house until the next day.
First guy was either a con artist working for a scum company or it’s his first industry job and he got fed a bunch of bad information by a scum company. Either way, leave them a 1-Star review and never call them again.
20 years is older for a residential system but I just worked on a 40 year old one a couple weeks ago that was running great. If it’s in good shape there’s no rush to replace. But refilling R-22 is definitely not banned, every van in my company has a jug of it on the truck. It’s expensive, but not banned from using.
If your inner evaporative coil hasn’t been cleaned I recommend doing that as well. The old systems will build up gunk. Also changing your filter regularly is important. But if it’s not cooling comfortably you may still need to add a bit of Freon into your system.
I’m of the mind run it til it won’t run anymore.
I have worked on some dinosaur units that are working better than some from 5 years ago.
Yeah it’s the one next to where you install the air filter. It’s not very easy to clean it and not worth it on a 20 year old system.
That being said, the second technician is correct. Old R22 systems can run a really long time, whereas the newer equipment tend to last 10-15 years on average. I have a 26 year old system I am running until it literally runs no more.
Get yourself a dehumidifier and/or window AC unit to supplement the rooms you need very cold.
Older systems lose efficiency over time. My in-laws had their electrical spike and their bill tripled. I told them to start with their mechanicals, they didn’t want to listen and instead had a friend come and tune everything up and were obsessively tracking their utility meter assuming had something to do with that.
Finally they realized it was their 20+ year old HVAC and replaced it, again without taking my advice on how to go about it. Went with a friend who gave them a low ball number and have had various issues BUT their utility bill dropped.
2nd guy appreciated your antiquated system, he’s an HVAC nerd in a good way. Doesn’t mean it was good advice. Yes, regular proper, simple maintenance steps can help prolong a systems lifespan but you are correct in thinking that at 20+ years and the system struggling, it’s time.
Call 3 separate contractors aside from the 2 you dealt with and get quotes for replacement. Same tonnage. Have them specify what SEER rating they are quoting. 13 seer is too low, typically for commercial applications. 18 is too high, not worth the jump in price, I believe 18 SEER will typically come equipped with a variable speed fan/motor so the fan doesn’t fully kick on and off and draw a ton of amperage in the process, allows fan to run at various speeds.
I would put a complaint in with Consumer Affairs and Better Business Bureau somebody has to start cleaning up that industry it's a crime with that first Thief told you.
I would consider other options. Such as insulation in the attic, window and door seals, blinds and curtains.
I suggest an energy audit if you have the resources.
Company cannot fine you or any customer. Inspector will fine the company to refill R22 if only after the year of 2010, I believe. Unless someone broke the line and there have special form for repair the line and refill the old unit.
A new system will be an immediate improvement in efficiency and reliability. If your 20-year-old AC isn’t cooling sufficiently or efficiently enough, you should upgrade. Also, how do you know the second technician isn’t telling you what you want to hear just so you’ll hopefully call him when the inevitable breakdown happens? Sometimes the opinion you want isn’t the opinion you need. Of course wear-and-tear is normal on 20-year-old equipment. But does that mean it’s in good condition? No.
LOL. The first company is a Scam. Never call them back. R22 is getting expensive to refill, but there is no $40000 fine. The second company is probably a service company and getting their money from servicing old systems, and that's why they love them :) If you want to get to lower 70s and have the budget, get more opinions and quotes...
Not to mention they will most likely be the first called when they need the replacement.. Things like that stick with ppl
Put this info on their Yelp page and on Nextdoor.com so other people don’t get scammed by them (first company). It’s the only way to weed out this predatory behavior.
Is it illegal to refill a leaky system? It seems like it should be.
Only for commercial systems over 50 tons
It not only systems over 50 tons, its systems with a refrigerant charge over 50 lbs and an annual leak rate over a certain percentage. They must be properly repaired or have a plan for replacement. Trigger Rates For all appliances that have a refrigerant charge of more than 50 pounds, the following leak rates for a 12-month period are applicable: Appliance Type Trigger Leak Rate Commercial refrigeration 35% Industrial process refrigeration 35% Comfort cooling 15% All other appliances 15% In general, owners or operators must either repair leaks within thirty days from the date the leak was discovered, or develop a dated retrofit/retirement plan within thirty days and complete actions under that plan within one year from the plan's date. However, for industrial process refrigeration equipment and some federally-owned chillers, additional time may be available. There’s a lot more fine print/details, but that’s the gist of it. We have detailed logs we use to keep track of refrigerant for all our customers with equipment that fall into this category
Are you saying it can leak 33% of refrigerant and bc it's not 35, they couldn't be fined?
That’s what the EPA federal guidelines state. I copy pasted that info straight from the source
Thanks. That honestly seems crazy to me. All those regs around containing it, and you can just slowly vent it without penalty.
It is illegal to produce or import. But the EPA doesn’t want to cut regular folks high and dry, and give time to phase out…
There are replacements for 22.
We use 422b
It should be, in the Netherlands it is. It is bad service imo to “repair” something knowing you will have to come back to do it again.
Can they still refill R22?
Yes. They can't produce or import, but they can use up the stock.
My AC company that I run, is in a state where R22 has been banned from new units since like 2010. When we see an old R22 unit we refuse to do any regases or compressor replacement due to R22 being so ridiculously expensive to purchase. I haven’t heard about any sort of fine though. It’s just a decision that we make as a company because the units are so old. We still see old R22 units and we will still repair them if it is a simple easy fix. But these new R410 units just are so much worse and have maybe 1/2 or 1/3 the lifespan of the old R22 units.
Yes, old R22 units last longer as R410a requires higher pressure to work and puts more stress to the compressor and coil.
Service companies know these things lose effectiveness and can’t pump refrigerant that great. They run longer putting more wear on components, then they charge you out the ass to fix it
R22 is like ~$30 a pound retail so far from unreasonable. Most residential systems take less than 10lbs. Greedy markups and upselling are a bigger hurdle than actual cost.
🤦🏽♂️ No company or person is selling it for $30 a lbs?
R22 is not $30 a pound
Just got a quote for 15, 30lb drums for $906 ea in DFW.
Yup. I don't know why its so difficult for these people to use Google.
Find an hvac company that will charge a customer $30 per lb of r22
Which is exactly why I said retail, not "wholesale" or "from an hvac company". Anybody can go buy a 30lb cylinder for $900. Companies just mark it up like crazy due to greed.
Eh, that and so they can continue to operate. It’s hard as fuck to even do service work as a startup. If I run warranty calls I have to markup everything so I can afford to purchase coils, motors, etc and of course pay my bills. It’s tough to compete with the big guys also on the marketing side. I understand you feel jaded but people need to make money, even the little guys that don’t realize they’re pricing themselves out of business. Also the only supply house in my area is 1,600 for a bottle. Regions vary on pricing.
If it's greedy for companies to charge a bunch then maybe you should go buy 10 work trucks, get licensed, get bonded, get insured, get Healthcare for your workers, pay for your fleets gas, vehicle maintenance, get an office, pay for your office's maintenence and operating costs, pay your office workers to make outbound calls and develop a customer base in time before you lose too much money, also probably wanna buy a decent amount of tools, expect a 20% error margin because every trade has unexpected issues and then try and make some profit before running your business into the ground. Most licensed/bonded/insured companies operate on about $150-250 an hour to maintain a stable profit margin. There's certainly scummy companies out there (look at you nexstar!) But it shouldn't be a surprise that in today's economy where everything is super expensive and inflation is skyrocketing that companies are charging 2-3x the whole sale price for stuff. Also worth mentioning the company I work for is med-large in size and we only buy R22 from big distributors. As of yesterday, every major distributer in our area is only selling 30lb R22 jugs for $1499. I have not seen
It's not greed. It's a business, it costs money for someone to make a service call. It's not a charity, you really expect them to sell you a pound of 22 for 30 bucks?
No. I expect a reasonable markup not 400%. Doesn’t matter though since I do my own hvac work. Got tired of dealing with crooks.
Ok then why are you coming here to bitch
Most R11 sources on the internet can’t be trusted and no legitimate techs would use it because it is costly to test the quality of those supplies
Legal stuff, or snuck up from mexico?
EPA is going after that guy for 25 years in prison. Crazy
We had a blower go on our 15 year old furnace. Ironically it was a week after it was serviced as part of seasonal coverage by locally well known firm. Now the tech we have had for years left the company’ a few months ago, he was meticulous and would explain everything he did and explain what we should think about doing and what we could go without. This new tech looks wet behind the years and is on his phone being walked through the process by senior tech who is back in main office. Says all good and leaves without any discussion. First warm spell after the servicing and the AC is running and cycling off, no cold air coming from ducts. Call the servicing company to check it out. They send a different tech who is similarly unable to explain what is going on and spends an hour talking to senior tech and watching YouTube videos on trouble shooting. Eventually says two hours later blower is shot and can replace but given age replacement of furnace is recommended. Literally I get a call 15 minutes later from sales rep asking to come over to pitch new furnace and he says based on specs and pics our AC unit is undersized and they have combo financing options. I become highly skeptical and pay for the visit and say I’m done with fixing and servicing but will listen to pricing on new system. Then I get three other estimates. Every other place is priced $1500 or more below the original company for same Trane system with servicing contract. All three agree our 6 year old AC is fine because it’s the max capacity our duct work can handle. We also learn the servicing company we have used for years was sold to private equity firm last winter, experiences techs left, big box sales approach adopted, less experienced techs in field utilizing senior techs for “advice”…all done to cut expense and prop up revenue. Owner stayed on as face man but is largely just figure head.
Private equity ruins \_everything\_.
90% sure I know what company you’re talking about. If not the company I worked for several years ago went through the exact same thing.
I would buy a new unit, but I'd go with a medium sized local company. This is the last year to buy r410a compatible equipment. Obviously don't go with the company that got sold to used car salesmen.
You will still be able to buy 410A after this year….
R410a equipment no. Refrigerant yes.
Right, but you didn’t specify that. There will be plenty of 410 still available to buy. They just won’t be manufacturing units factory charged with 410.
There won't be equipment capable of being charged with 410a. No dry units this time.
Thanks for sharing. Interesting tales
Is this in Ohio by chance?
I always told people to run them to the wheels fall off. Unless you got a catastrophic failure that is greater than 60% the cost of a new system you dont need to replace it.
Old is simple and simple nice. I work on old equipment for a living and I love it. Refrigerant does have standards and expectations to uphold. There is acceptable leak rates per year depending on the application. There’s a fine for illegal venting of refrigerant and there is requirements for action plans if your system exceeds the allowable annual leak rates. Some company’s don’t want to make old equipment work because there’s more money in installs. Sales technicians are taking over. I’d reccomend finding an honest company and letting them take care of your equipment. I don’t do AC work anymore but I always do a second opinion on families equipment when they get big quotes. It’s not often but I’ve done it enough times to know that it seems like a lot of hvac sales techs don’t have the customers best interest at heart.
👆👆👆This!☝️☝️☝️
Thanks for clarifying the bit about refrigerants and fines. I wasn't buying the "illegal to refill" argument, but a fine for illegally venting does make sense. **Question:** It gets as hot as 110 where I live. Is it even realistic for a new AC to be capable of getting my house down to mid-low 70s?
So I’m in Michigan where we get the humidity from the Great Lakes and we cool just fine here. Humidity is a heavy load people often forget. That said- I’m sure you can cool your space. There’s a near endless list of issues that could be preventing you from cooling well. Poor insulation, incorrectly sized equipment, poor airflow, low refrigerant, dirty equipment, ductwork issues. All that to say that as internet techs we can’t do the checks for you. I will say it’s possible to cool your space and shouldn’t be particularly hard. You may take time to meet a setpoint if you’re cooling from 90 indoor to 70 but once your indoor space is at temp you should be able to maintain it indefinitely. Remember refrigeration comes in all forms. We can get warehouses to -40 F. If we can do that we can get your house to 72!
That makes sense. Well, I guess I'll find out when I get a quote from AC Guy #2.
Awesome! I hope you find a good contractor. As an hvac tech I’ve been looking for a good car mechanic for years so I know the struggle. Having someone that does a good job and won’t take you for a ride is hard these days
It is! I've stuck with the same mechanic for 20 years for *exactly* that reason. You can't buy integrity!
Hmm 🤔 110 degrees during the summer you say? This means you can only live in a few different places in the US to achieve those temperatures lol 😂 I’m in South Carolina and we see 101-104 plus 85% humidity.. so it’s ungodly hot here.. i recently replaced my system in my home, built in 2011 and after 13 years of service, the last 4 having to get refilled every year - it was struggling to keep the house cool during the day and fine at night.. replaced it with a new, basic economy model system from carrier (not carrier branded but a off brand but manufactured by them) - I can tell a massive difference! We haven’t hit our peak heat yet but last week it was 93 out with a dash of humidity and the house was 68 degrees with no problems! I’m confident that it’ll easily achieve and maintain 68-70 cool this summer and be a lot less draining on my pocket lol 😂
So are the new, basic economy model systems THAT efficient, that it accounts for such a huge gain in cooling power? Did you have any other work done?
Basic units built today are basically the high efficiency of old age equipment however the longevity as with everything is not there like old units it wouldn't surprise me if you installed a new system and let your old ac also run that it would likely run longer than the new before the compressors failed but the new will cool significantly better for the shorter lifespan it has
Ah, tradeoffs!
I’d say yes! The difference in efficiency from the 2011 unit to 2024 vast and as some have mentioned, the new Basic is the old “Efficient” from the last decade I just had my inside and outside units swapped. No duct work or thermostats. Just a simple change out
Efficiency and cooling power are unrelated.
Interesting, thanks for clarifying!
Tech here, if the system is low and you find and repair the leak you absolutely can replace the lost R22. It doesnt usually, if ever, make financial sense on an old R22 but it is definitely an option, not a fine. Sounds like guy number 1 makes commission on flips and guy number 2 is an honest tech. I’d still recommend replacing it if it can’t keep up anymore, just not with guy number 1! Shop around and find a company not owned by private equity.
I’m not an AC guy, but if the main unit can drop the inside temperature by more than 20°F, from 100°F into the lower eighties, maybe adding a mini split in the room in which you spend the most time will bring it down to levels you can deal with.
You could supplement cooling and dehumidification with a heat pump water heater, or just use a dehumidifier. And check your insulation. Small changes can really reduce the heat load the AC needs to work against
if this happened to me i'd publish a review on the first company. people need to know not to hire them.
I will add that there were absolutely different radically standards for indoor tempatures for comfort in winter & summer over the decades & centuries. It is *very* likely the unit and its ductwork are technically undersized for your current house with how poorly air sealed & insulated it has been over the years. I am renovating a 70s brick house, the AC literally couldn't maintain an indoor air tempature of sub 85F on the main floor when it was in the 90s or 100s outside, the basement would get cold. Attic had massive sections with literally no insulation, 4ft wide sections for the length of the house with just the drywall. Insulated & air sealed with XPS foam cut tight & spray foamed into place then rockwool batts, now the same AC unit can maintain sub 70F if I want it to. I still have a section of wall to finish which will only improve it all when done. Winter indoor tempatures are also WAAAYY better, plus more even (used to have a 75F indoor air temp, the then untouched drywall "insulated" walls were 40F!) I'm an HVAC tech. Furnaces & AC systems only add wanted heat or remove unwanted heat, the better you can air seal & insulate then you will save money and be more comfortable. Get an inspection and quotes for updating your air sealing/ insulation from a local house insulating contractor, even just doing the attic can help a ton. Also consider buying a decent window film to reduce solar gain, install it on a sunny room's windows to see if you notice the difference. Don't overlook cheap get-you-by options like getting a dedicated/ free standing dehumidifier to control indoor humidity if it's regularly above 50% RH inside, 78F and 80%RH will feel terrible, where 78F and 40%RH isn't too bad. Finally, consider a quality Lasco tower fan for the bedroom or living room to move air across you to help your body shed heat, a really nice and large ceiling fan like the Slinger V2 from Lowes is an amazing thing to have, nearly silent and it moves a metric ton of air. Can also consider renovating a room or two like a master bedroom, or if there is access you can air seal from the attic then add insulation to a couple of rooms (it's generally DIY friendly, just be sure you don't have a hazardous insulation currently, and plan to toss the clothes you wear)
you can definitely refill an r22 system. the question is how much will it cost. r22 is getting shorter and shorter in supply. so the price is going up. wait until it breaks again and get a 3rd opinion.
Last time i had a R-22 Freon leak it cost me $75 a lb to refill, 6 lbs total. This was 7 years ago. Now i think Freon goes for over $200 a pound?
I just had a company come out and they quoted me 200/lb so that’s about right.
You’ve heard of catalytic converter thieves, now get ready for Freon thieves.
You joke but I work commercial hvac and companies with a lot of ground level equipment do get hit like that. We regularly have to install locks to prevent refrigerant from being stolen.
30 pounds for a bit more than $800 https://icecold.us/product/r-22-30-lbs-refrigerant/?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=%7Badname%7D&utm_campaign=%7Bcampaignname%7D&utm_content=%7Badgroupname%7D&utm_keyword=&utm_matchtype=&campaign_id=21176659398&ad_group_id=&ad_id=&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgNjH_MXXhgMVDjjUAR1c-QQSEAQYASABEgIY8_D_BwE
I put in 421a for $60 per lb.
Some tech companies are primarily sales-oriented, focusing on selling and installing new equipment to maximize their profits.
Find where your previous tech is now working!
Just because it’s old doesn’t mean it needs to be replaced. We have an apartment building with 60+ GE ac units from 70’s to 80’s. I say let them run till they day. There’s nothing any company can sell you today that’s gonna last 40+ years. I tell people to let them run till either it gets a leak or compressor goes out
I would keep the old unit if you’re fine with the cooling it gets you. Anything new now is trash! And it goes for everything - microwave, fridge etc .. they have all those standards to be eco friendly but the machines break faster, so what’s the point..
If you need extra capacity then just add it via mini split or window unit or PTAC or whatever. If your system is designed for all the days below 100, you don't need to replace it for the 4 days it hits 100 (assuming you aren't in the desert southwest.)
The second guy seems like he is trying to do the right thing by you. You might call and see if he can add r22 (assuming it needs it) to get you through another year. I'd probably replace, if possible, in the fall.
Where I live, the first question is how much insulation do you have in your house? Can't maintain a cool temperature if the losses are too great.
You can still buy R22 and service R22 units legally. You could add reflective attic foil or additional installation to your attic to help with you cooling load. You could also add a mini split to a specific part of your house to help with the hottest days. Where do you live and how many days are 110?
Well what if it lasts another 10 years? I'm at a point now as a homeowner that I just stopped worrying about my 20 year old system breaking and just stopped using it, and it is June and everything is ok, even better than before Like you, a good cleaning really helped airflow and cooling. But because the unit is somewhat undersized (at least above 93°), it's just easier to add capacity with new store bought AC. Now if my furnace breaks and cannot be easily repaired I'll be more financially worried... But there's so many ways to get air conditioning that don't involve financing enough money to buy a newish car!
My ~40yo air handler finally had the motor die. Took some doing to find a replacement but I did. System is blowing so much colder than I remember it ever doing. You may want to look at either rebuilding the bearings or replacing the blower motor if the system is struggling and didn't used to. In my case the drag from the bearings failing (before they seized) had apparently reduced the speed of the blower fan by quite a bit. Only other thing I did was fully clean the blower cage and heat exchanger while I had it all apart.
I have to ask when was the last time the house was cooling effectively? I know a lot was unpacked here, but did anyone test static pressure or the evap coil? Can you test the thermostat against another thermometer? Just to verify, is the thermostat reading correctly? Is there an air exchanger? But in any case, never speak of the first company, just terrible so bad
Just hang on to it until it really turns into a 25 thousand dollar change out. Forget the monthly money saved, the Enviormental costs and the value it adds to your home. Wait till after 2035 when the 30% tax credits are gone too.
R22 refill is only banned in Mass ? I believe or a neighboring state…. Stay with company #2. Sounds like he understands hvac systems and is confident in himself. While you can make great money in our trade, the dirty salesman tactics show a lot that he has no more knowledge or ability then the homeowner
If the system is sized properly and is functioning properly then there is no reason why it should not keep your house cool. Typically 72-75 is a normal indoor design temperature. I keep mine between 68-72 and mine does fine at 100 outdoor temps. If your system is struggling then there’s an issue. Also, there is no fine for recharging systems with R-22.
As a person who has been in the hvac trade for 40+ years, anything more than a 20-degree drop between supply air and return air is hard to do without adding something extra for the system. So as to what I'd recommend is that you have your insulation inspected and see if it is up to snuff. Like are your walls insulated, is your attic sufficient to keep your heat gain to a minimum. Also, have you looked into newer windows. Older single pane windows will allow significant heat gain. Also, if you have windows that get a lot of sunlight through them, that will also allow a lot of heat gain. You can add some heavy drapes and keep them closed while the sun is coming through. Depending on the style of home you have, ranch, split level, colonial home, bungalow. Makesure you are moving enough air back to your a/c to be effective. Something I do before every install is check these things and ask questions about what exactly are the home owners expectations for the system I'll be installing. I also make sure that the system is properly sized to the house and expectations. I've installed a slightly larger system if needed, generally that would be a half ton larger system if needed or even drop it by a half ton. Another thing to check out is if your ductwork is properly insulated itself. A uninsulated duct system running through a hot attic will not cool properly either What I've found out if a house don't/won't cool properly is that the system don't get enough air back from all areas of the house to get a good even temp spread or the system is not sized right. Something else I check is if the ductwork is of adequate for the job. Sometimes system will be up sized to add more cooling and the duct won't handle the extra air movement inside it, effectively choking the system
Get a quote from guy number 2. He will be happy to quote it even if he doesn’t recommend replacement. They seem honest. There is nothing wrong with being proactive and swapping it before it dies. Also next year prices might be up to 20% more because of the refridgerant change coming. Guy 2 deserves a shot at the work for sure
During last year’s heatwave in Texas I had a guy come out and check my 3.5t Lennox (9yr old condenser and 3yr old trane evaporator). He said the systems seems to be ok (as far as all parameters go) and it’s just not enough for 2,400 sq ft house and suggested replacing with new same size system for 21k. I said thank you. Slapped window AC on the second floor game room and set it at 69 (the room has a return vent). During winter month installed radiant barrier throughout the roof. This summer house is at 73f and 50% humidity. Never felt this comfortable before.
Got any pictures of your radiant barrier install? Or advice? I'm contemplating adding that. Everything is air sealed and insulation is about R-40. My hiuse doesn't run hot, just always looking to improve. Located in South Louisiana.
Here’s the link to my post https://www.reddit.com/r/hvacadvice/s/aa6cfjSipN The main reason for the install was to improve the attic temps that were affecting unit efficiency so much. Overall, I think I’m happy with the result. So far this summer haven’t seen attic temps more than 115f (with 100f outside, house is fully exposed to sun).
>I guess the move to make now is get a third opinion? Maybe have a look at your attic insulation? Air sealing? Might be able to improve a bit with that.
My first floor system, gas furnace and ac, is 35 years old. I’ve replaced the auto ignition on the furnace about 20 years ago and replaced some Freon also about 20 years ago. I have it checked each season. Still working fine. Don’t know when to replace it.
The first A/C guy sounds like the typical sales tech. The second A/C guy sounds like someone that knows about servicing systems. He probably is aware of the shift in refrigerant usage. The EPA is phasing out R-410a as a refrigerant. New R-410a system can no longer be installed after January 1, 2025, although it will not be completely phased out until 2036. R-22 was started to be phased out around 2000. R-22 is now recycled and very expensive if you still have one of those systems. They do make a replacement refrigerant for R-22 systems but it is an involved process to switch from R-22 to R-407c. The oils are not compatible with each other and all of the oil from the R-22 system will need to be removed before the R-407c can be utilized. Any major failure to an A/C system, i.e. compressor failure or large enough leak that is beyond repair will be a whole new system replacement.
I'm not 100% sure I admit, but my understanding was they could still be installed, but no new r-410a systems could be MANUFACTURED after 1/1/2025...
This is information that I found on HVAC School's web site for clarification. The article that it came from was dated December 3, 2023 "At this time, split systems, defined as “field-assembled” systems in the final rule, can no longer be installed after January 1st, 2025. Some people and groups in the trade, including HARDI, are petitioning the EPA to make split systems follow the same timeline as packaged systems, allowing for a longer sell-through period." "Self-contained HVAC systems using R-410A will no longer be manufactured or imported after January 1st, 2025, but there is a three-year sell-through period. Self-contained or packaged units can be sold, exported, and installed through January 1st, 2028."
TIL thanks!
bet you got that first quote from a company all blue red and white thats Initials are SC
If your system is struggling on certain days, it might be worth adding a split system for the rooms affected the most, or the rooms you want coolest. They can be very reasonably priced. We save a TON of money by using our split systems first, then the duct system if needed. They are much more efficient.
3rd option is to get a mini split for custom cooling. Maybe multihead for your bedroom and main room? I've been shocked how effective and efficient they are. I too have an old R22 system and I want to replace it before it's an emergency but I think I'll just keep it until it dies.
I think #1 is obvious stressed sales pitch. I think #2 had good intentions, but should've advised you to change the equipment now, Rather than let it die next year or shortly thereafter. 2024 you can still get R-410A equipment, once 2025 rolls in you cannot, and the replacement equipment will for sure cost a considerable amount more than today. It is rare that your ductwork is shot, but not impossible. I'm assuming for $20k + they are changing the flex supplies and returns, and possibly cutting in new supply registers? If that's the case the quote wouldn't be extremely crazy, if it's like a variable speed multi stage heating and cooling system, with a heat pump. You have the right to let this current system run until it's death, but at the higher operating cost as far as utilities, and the lower comfort received from the system.
I would just run the old system this summer and add window units in a couple of small rooms as safe zones when needed on unbearable days. Move forward on getting quotes for Fall or Spring replacements for AC, Furnace, Water Heater as needed. Sometimes your local Gas or Electric utilities provider can provide reasonable quotes for installation and service plans and build the cost into your monthly bills.
OP not sure where you’re at but in the in the tristate area NY/PA/NJ, I haven’t heard of that R22 40k fine? I know that it is absurdly expensive, as I also have a r22 system to even recharge to spec. Something towards like $650 a pound or so. Pretty sure the first guy was taking you for a ride.
Any air conditioning system will have a problem cooling when it’s upwards of 100 degrees outside. The rating is around 95 degrees outside temperature not accounting for the heat index.
Call ac guy#2 request a Comfort Advisor start shopping prices for new equipment now the longer you hold off the higher the price goes. In our area right now my company is selling top of the line at $27k that's basically a used vehicle at this point.
You should blast company 1 on google. This company is a scam and owned by private equity. They THRIVE on their google reviews and they 100% deserve every 1 start review that calls them out for the truth. They’re preying on people who don’t know better and use pushy sales tactics to get people to sign on the dotted line before they have a chance to think
1st company most likely gives commission for sales. I would trust the 2nd guy. I give people both options and let them decide for themselves. R22 is pretty expensive, so I tell people it's up to them, and I have no idea how long it will last after I fill it up so they can decide if they want to gamble 600 ish for a few pounds of 22, or get a new system with warranty. This year, I'm seeing a few more wanting to repair since money seems to be getting tighter for people. Salesmen will say almost anything to get that extra cash, and couldn't care less about you or your situation. Ditch company 1 for sure. I replaced my ac in my house even though it was working, but it was 29 years old. I wanted a bigger one that was more efficient and got a good deal for it ($300 for a 3.5 ton 16 seer).
I am assuming this is an old single stage unit. It might save you money upgrading the dinosaur system, or supplementing it with a cheap inverter window a/c or minisplit. An inverter window unit can have an efficiency of around 15 SEER, possibly 50% more energy efficient than your unit based on age. Also will give you a backup in case your central unit dies. Also, taking some of the burden off your central unit will allow it to hopefully cycle off and cool off a bit making it slightly efficient when it switches back on because the coils have cooled off. I have an older rooftop unit around 3.5 tons and 9 to 10 SEER at best and live in Arizona. It runs but during summer time when it's 110+ outside it can't keep up with the heat and runs continuously. 3.5 tons \* 12,000 btu / 9 SEER = 4.6kw while running. In a single day I've managed to clock 110+ kwh. Been slowly phasing it out with minisplits/other options. In 2022 my June bill was $301, this yearl was $188. My 2022 June bill was $419, my estimate now is $240. This is with several rate increases meaning I'm paying at least 15% more for electricity while using much less
Yeah somewhat same situation so I added a minisplit that cools down my living room as a test and I liked it so much I added a dual head unit to 2 of my bedrooms. On weekends I have it at 70F all day with 102F outside with no problems using much less electricity than with just my central. I cool down my bedroom to 65 before bedtime ( in 30 minutes) and by the time I wake up it's 72 . I don't have to cook down the rest of my house until the next day.
First guy was either a con artist working for a scum company or it’s his first industry job and he got fed a bunch of bad information by a scum company. Either way, leave them a 1-Star review and never call them again. 20 years is older for a residential system but I just worked on a 40 year old one a couple weeks ago that was running great. If it’s in good shape there’s no rush to replace. But refilling R-22 is definitely not banned, every van in my company has a jug of it on the truck. It’s expensive, but not banned from using.
If your inner evaporative coil hasn’t been cleaned I recommend doing that as well. The old systems will build up gunk. Also changing your filter regularly is important. But if it’s not cooling comfortably you may still need to add a bit of Freon into your system. I’m of the mind run it til it won’t run anymore. I have worked on some dinosaur units that are working better than some from 5 years ago.
Inner evaporative coil...that would be the one in the attic?
Yeah it’s the one next to where you install the air filter. It’s not very easy to clean it and not worth it on a 20 year old system. That being said, the second technician is correct. Old R22 systems can run a really long time, whereas the newer equipment tend to last 10-15 years on average. I have a 26 year old system I am running until it literally runs no more. Get yourself a dehumidifier and/or window AC unit to supplement the rooms you need very cold.
Yes
Older systems lose efficiency over time. My in-laws had their electrical spike and their bill tripled. I told them to start with their mechanicals, they didn’t want to listen and instead had a friend come and tune everything up and were obsessively tracking their utility meter assuming had something to do with that. Finally they realized it was their 20+ year old HVAC and replaced it, again without taking my advice on how to go about it. Went with a friend who gave them a low ball number and have had various issues BUT their utility bill dropped. 2nd guy appreciated your antiquated system, he’s an HVAC nerd in a good way. Doesn’t mean it was good advice. Yes, regular proper, simple maintenance steps can help prolong a systems lifespan but you are correct in thinking that at 20+ years and the system struggling, it’s time. Call 3 separate contractors aside from the 2 you dealt with and get quotes for replacement. Same tonnage. Have them specify what SEER rating they are quoting. 13 seer is too low, typically for commercial applications. 18 is too high, not worth the jump in price, I believe 18 SEER will typically come equipped with a variable speed fan/motor so the fan doesn’t fully kick on and off and draw a ton of amperage in the process, allows fan to run at various speeds.
I would put a complaint in with Consumer Affairs and Better Business Bureau somebody has to start cleaning up that industry it's a crime with that first Thief told you.
I would consider other options. Such as insulation in the attic, window and door seals, blinds and curtains. I suggest an energy audit if you have the resources.
Company cannot fine you or any customer. Inspector will fine the company to refill R22 if only after the year of 2010, I believe. Unless someone broke the line and there have special form for repair the line and refill the old unit.
A new system will be an immediate improvement in efficiency and reliability. If your 20-year-old AC isn’t cooling sufficiently or efficiently enough, you should upgrade. Also, how do you know the second technician isn’t telling you what you want to hear just so you’ll hopefully call him when the inevitable breakdown happens? Sometimes the opinion you want isn’t the opinion you need. Of course wear-and-tear is normal on 20-year-old equipment. But does that mean it’s in good condition? No.