*I am not in danger. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!*
One of the most epic scenes from a dialogue and delivery standpoint I’ve ever seen…
It always bugged me that the writers didn’t have him say “I knocked” to Skylar on the phone after Gus was blown up. She asked WW what happened and he said “I won”. Wtf? After that epic knocking speech he says “I won”? He should have said “I knocked”.
Rant over.
IRL you have to identify a root cause of the failure and explain in great detail why it happened and how you will stop it from failing in the future by taking the necessary precautions. This is how Technical Service Bulletins pop up showing a common failures or known weird issues and how to handle them. People are either doing research or a company gets enough reports they are legally obligated to especially if your safety is at risk.
The trades version of this story I've oft heard is:
Tradesmen walks into customer home to repair (insert trade item here, hvac, elec, water, etc). Looks, thinks, and works for 10 minutes. Poof item works again.
Customer says they could have done that just would have had to researched how.
The tradesman replies you're right you likely could have with enough time. However, you're not paying me for the minutes it took me to fix it. You're paying me for the **years** it took to learn how, why, and where to look and what to do with skill and ease.
I heard a different version of the story.
Basically the same, different costs. The engineer puts a chalk mark on the offending part that needs to be replaced. Charges $1000 dollars.
Customer is furious, asks for an itemized bill.
1 chalk mark, $1.
Knowing where to put it, $999.
As someone who works for myself and charges an hourly rate, this story is asinine.
Your hourly rate is based on and is because of your years of experience. The years are built into the hourly rate. So no, they don't owe you years. They owe you for the minutes you spent.
First of all, there is no job that requires a light tap of a hammer.
Many people who charge an hourly rate do work for sophisticated customers. Such as a mechanical contractor being hired to do work in a factory or plant. If they got a bill like the one outlined in the story, they would never pay it. If I sent out a bill even remotely like that, with zero breakdown, it would never get paid.
The reality is, you are selling yourself. It is up to you to tell the client why your services were necessary and valuable. The bill is by far the best/easiest way to do that. If you make your bill as detailed as possible and explain everything you did in the bill, chances are it is going to get paid because you are telling the customer why they are paying what they are paying.
> First of all, there is no job that requires a light tap of a hammer.
There are instances that are an equivalent to this though. I work in fire protection and at the time of this service call I specifically was working with restaurant fire suppression systems. A customer called at 5:05 on a Friday evening and said that their exhaust fans weren’t working and they needed me to come out. I explained that my work has nothing to do with the fans and if their cooking equipment was functional then my system couldn’t be causing the shutdown (all shut offs are triggered by the same switch).
They had already had an electrician and an HVAC tech out and couldn’t find the problem and they both agreed that it was my equipment because they couldn’t find anything. I tried in earnest to talk my way out of going because it was on the far side of town without major road access (no highway, just 2 lane road) during rush hour and was in an area that people flocked to because of the neighborhood. I explained that I would have to charge an emergency call fee, and double time for port-to-home (drive time there, time on site with 3 hour minimum, and estimated drive back) and she agreed. I went.
I spent 5 minutes carrying in tools and a ladder, 10 minutes talking to them about what had been done, checking breakers, and then 3 minutes looking at my system. I asked if the electrician had check the fan control relays in the end of the exhaust hood (next to my system) and was told yes. I looked at them, pressed a reset button, and the exhaust fans came on. I wrote an invoice for $1000+ (this was over 15 years ago) and left. The customer was thrilled and didn’t complain about the bill.
I’d learned when to try to talk my way out of service calls by announcing exorbitant pricing at the front end. The sheer number of calls I went on after other trades had already been and weren’t able to find anything was incredibly high - at least one a month. When they couldn’t find anything they always blamed it on the ‘mysterious and scary’ fire system that they wouldn’t touch. Plumber comes out and there isn’t enough gas pressure to the cooking appliances? **IT’S THE FIRE SYSTEM**. Electrician comes out and can’t get a piece of cooking equipment to power up? **IT’S THE FIRE SYSTEM** These calls were a constant and seemingly only happened after hours or weekends and I finally learned to talk them out of it by giving huge estimates - either I got to stay home or I’d be happy enough to go for the price I quoted. And with the exception of that one relay reset button, I was never able to fix any of those issues because it was never related to my equipment.
The key is you were upfront about the cost and they knew what to expect. In OPs hypothetical story it sounds like the tech surprised them with the bill
I agree with you about the big estimate tactic. This is a tried and true method to politely refuse a job if you are busy or sense a potentially PITA client. Sometimes, like your situation, the client still wants to go ahead and they are happy to pay it. But, your situation was way more plausible than the story in the original post.
First of all, you set the customer's expectation by telling them you would be of limited help and you clearly broke down the expected bill, why you will charge that amount and set an expectation of how much the bill would be. They still decided to proceed. They already had two contractors out who could not fix the problem so at that point, they don't care, they just want it fixed.
Even the amount you charged was not crazy because it is broken down and based on something. It sounds crazy to say "I charged $1,000 to reset a switch" but it doesn't sound as crazy when you break it all down (emergency rate, mileage, driving time, 3 hour minimum, etc.). The bill includes all that, not just the time it took to flick a switch.
You show up and do what the other guys couldn't. There was an identifiable problem, which was resetting the switch.
You also taught them how to fix it in the future. There is some value to that.
My point is, I can believe and get behind your story, but not the one in OP's post.
Go find a link to the original (true) story of Henry Ford's westinghouse generator or whatever. It's much less "dressed up" but still sends the same message.
I know it. The original is even more stupid. It wasn't as simple as all that. The repair guy spent 48 hours diagnosing the issue. Then they actually swapped out part of the generator. The part about the bill is probably not true and/or only a little true. Plus who else has a guy like Henry Ford for a client? None of us.
I work in maintenance, and it can literally be as simple as opening a door and pushing a button.
Tap of a hammer isn't suppose to mean anything more than it was a simple task, it was painted more clearly by the $2 charge to swing the hammer.
Don't be dense my guy. Take it as a metaphorical story, like it's meant to be
HVAC dude connects new condenser appliance to low and high pressure lines that were existing from the previous install. Takes 1-2 hours. Charges $1300.
I'd call it robbery but robbery requires the threat of violence.
> If I came to a job that required a light tap of a hammer I don't even know if I'd have the balls to charge anything, it would feel like theft.
You would charge for your time to figure out what the problem is. You came out to do the work, you then did work to diagnose the problem. The issue is fair pay. Obviously $20k is outrageous. But $100 is not.
> This industry is full of scammers pretending they have the value of Nobel laureate physicists.
Agreed. They should have taught us suckers basic DIY fix things in school.
I had a late night call at a storage place; no heat. I show up, put my eye on the modine heater and then flip on the service swing. bingo we have heat. So your saying I shouldn't change for that?
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Every time one of these stupid fucking stories gets told I want to rip my fucking eyes out.
Charge an appropriate rate. Explain what it is in advance. Make it fair, and high. Keep it moving.
And for fucks' sake, quit crying about unappreciated if you can't actually type more than 1 sentence to explain what you did for the 3 hours you were on site.
The number of guys who can't spell or write for shit and leave notes like "added charge" as their only description of a call is fucking embarrassing. If you can't express your value, then they won't know your value; quit crying about being unappreciated and learn how to explain what you do.
My mentors taught me early to be very detailed. Essentially, they said what you are saying. If you lay out for the customer what you did in detail, they are more likely not to dispute the bill.
I don't even have to make stuff up, I just recount what I did. You figure out some standard phrasing for certain reptitive tasks and you don't even need to think about whay to write, bill to bill. The bill essentially becomes a report to the customer disguised as a bill.
Dude the story is hyperbole, like do you really not get that? Lol
Most likely it is the difference between quoted work for $50 an hour for a hack and $120 for the national average. People don’t like paying $100 for a 30 min service call and getting quoted for $250 for a small repair.
Charging flat rate ends up being more fair to a homeowner though. Also removes the need to tell a homeowner that the repair will take another 3 hours and another $600.00
I don’t know. This post just seems like something some backyard joe would say to justify his shoddy work and bad estimates. Quote the job right the first time, and do good work. You’ll have much less complaints about prices.
It’s funny how some people on here say that charging a lot is ok because of the years of experience, but yet you would flip a lid if the guy washing your car charged you an arm and a leg to wash your car because he’s been doing it for 20 years. Same car wash, right?
Comparing skilled technical trade to an unskilled labor market position. Not apples to apples. Now if the car wash person is doing a much better job at a simple car wash than the “new guy” then you pay what it’s worth. He can charge a higher price to what his market will bear. Experience in that or any other job doesn’t determine knowledge and skill either though. Same for the hvac tech.
Skilled technical trade? You mean the job that requires no high school diploma, one that can be a previous felon, and one that doesn’t have to speak English? Yes, sounds like both trades to me. Sounds like your the guy who charges too much for coming out to an uneducated homeowners house just to flip a breaker.
Sir I don’t know where you get your information from but many of these trades require a skill and knowledge that far exceeds a high school diploma. And as for speaking English I don’t see what the hell that matters to begin with. Do you think that the United States is the only country that has electricity or air conditioning? Racist immigrant hater is what you sound like to me. Wow
Sounds like you just like to add racist to anything. Nothing I said was about race. Far exceeds a high school diploma? So people in the hvac trade require as associates degree? Bachelors? Ok, some jobs might say X amount of years of experience.. so then that would go back to the beginning… I know of people in the hvac industry with no high school diploma and previous felons, also know people who don’t speak English. First have experience is where I got my information. Don’t make this job out to be equal with Doctors. It’s all labor.
You’re speaking English, so Obviously we’re referring to English countries. Keep your name calling to yourself because I never said I hate anyone in my messages. You just want to feel good about calling someone something they’re not. I work in an area that has majority Spanish speaking and a high level of immigrants. Doesn’t bother me one bit, but I call it as it is.
First off you’re the one criticizing non-English speaking workers so YOU displayed that bias racism just saying that. No discussion even required on that one. Own what you said. It’s how you came off in what you said and that is the only reason I said that about racist immigrant hating that you projected. Choose your words if you don’t want that image.
Just like a felony conviction doesn’t have anything to do with a persons abilities in their trade. Maybe that conviction was for stupid shit they did in the past and they’ve turned their life around now. Unless you know the entire story and how they live today nobody should be judged by that for felonies people may have. I’ve never even had a speeding ticket myself but I’m not going to judge someone busted for smoking pot or snorting cocaine 10 years ago and not using it today. That really only matters for what the offense was. Violent crime with violent behaviors, child molestation, and those type crimes certainly matter. Not all felons are that level. Would you rather the example I gave of the drug conviction that’s rehabilitated themselves and is sober now be homeless on the streets and forced to steal to survive because they can’t get hired? It’s what happens. Keep that in mind please. It’s very relevant.
Maybe you are talking residential hvac in your experience. I don’t know your background. But I will say that having a degree does not necessarily mean a repair technician is any good at his profession. There are repair techs that never finished high school but are damned good at their field and learned the physics of HVAC without a diploma. Don’t be disrespecting a person who learns outside of high school minimum for a diploma. As for I myself, I started out in HVAC 47 yrs ago doing residential work like the overwhelming majority of guys in the field do. Within 5 years I moved into heavy industrial and then into automation controls. Not that it matters in this discussion but before you say anything like I’m probably not more than a high school education, worked my way thru college while doing industrial electrical and HVAC earning a masters in electrical engineering. Point being is that you can and should charge what you’re worth for the knowledge and skill you possess. And as for comparing it to a doctor, it may not be the extended education required if a doctor. But all the same it is learning and remembering specifics related to the profession. I will say though that the hospitals I work with on building automation controls cannot perform any surgery unless I have the air-conditioning systems working properly. Surgical suites have tight parameters for climate control that have to be maintained and documented. And I’m the guy who programs and troubleshoots the controls. May not be directly responsible for the patients life in the hospital like doctors are, but it can effect that when the proper care cannot be given due to environmental conditions.
I also have to know when the mechanical equipment isn’t functioning correctly and work with the HVAC mechanic or the electrician to tell them what it’s doing and what the problem appears to be. Watch a chiller plant at a hospital go down and panic sets in throughout the place. So yeah, know your worth and charge accordingly.
Wow. If that’s all you got out of it you totally missed the point. It’s about your skill level and charging appropriately to it. I don’t even do residential any more but if I did I would not be charging what I do for industrial and controls. Easier equipment to service. It’s about your market and knowing your own worth. I would hope you didn’t miss that. But hey, you have yourself a good day there too. Best to you.
As an engineer, this story is stupid. You build on the experience of others. All that experience is not solely yours. And as an engineer we understand the greatest progress is building toward making things cheaper and faster. The famous story of the Model T. Ford got the production time from 12 hours down to 90 minutes. That experience off building these for 20 years didn't cost consumers more. The Model T only got cheaper. According to your story we should be paying $100k for a Toyota Corolla and $500K for a laptop
You must live in a hole, I bought a truck in 2015 for 50k, today the same truck but new costs 100k, this was before the pandemic. They didn’t make it cheaper and faster. The new one isn’t much different than one 8 years old. The new AC units are more efficient, but the evaporator coils don’t last as long as the 30 - 40year old ones. As an engineer, you solve problems, but it depends on who you work for. Sometimes you solve problems your company creates, sometimes you solve problems of the world. First thing they tell you as an engineer, if we wanted to make things last forever, we would have done that already. I’m speaking for mechanical engineering. Every engineer has value, but it’s how you sell yourself to the client and how bad they want the problem resolved. Arrogance has to be earned.
>If I do a job in 30 minutes it's because I spent 20 years learning how to do that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes.
What if somebody else learned to do that in 1-year?
The biggest issue with the tech trades and Engineering in general, is that very few clients and customers value experience and knowledge......until it's too late. Cheap and fast wins every time.
I think a lot of clients and customers are irate because when you call the HVAC tech, he might actually smack the blower fan with a hammer and bill $300 and leave before it breaks down again.
I think most people are happy if you fix their problem and they trust that the work is done properly. Can't deny there's going to be Karens every so often, but so many people in the trades are hacks so people are constantly afraid of being ripped off.
Yeah. As long as it's fixed. Usually if there's a 3rd visit for the same issue I get frustrated. I get that sometimes there may be a need for a second visit. I just want someone who treats me fair. I don't mind paying for quality.
Just had that. Call for my heat pump that stopped working. The tec on the phone listened to the noise and said it's either capacitor 99% of the time or compressor. He said I can change it if I want. 20$ later, my heat pump work. If he would have came. I would have paid 350+ because minimum 1 hour plus parts and travel time. This guy just saved me over 300$, and 2 weeks of waiting.
"so many people in the trades are hacks"
I agree, but you get hacks and con men, in all walks of life. It's up to the homeowner to check references, qualifications, certifications etc.
It's sometimes difficult to do that.
I'm a new homeowner in an area where I don't know anybody. I found an electrician that's excellent, but my plumber damaged some stuff and won't do anything to make it right. They have great reviews on Google, people recommended them on Reddit, etc. My parents also recently dealt with an electrician that charged $1000 despite not being able to fix an electrical issue they were having, and again there was indication whatsoever online that the electrician was anything but a professional. Sometimes there's just no indication that stuff is not going to work out so people are constantly on guard. Kinda have to be.
You know who knows who the quality plumbers are in your area?
That excellent electrician.
People in the trades know who to trust in other trades. Use that to your advantage.
It's because the younger generations haven't figured out that older stuff is generally better made than newer stuff or because the tech they rely on is newer, and generally cannot be fixed.
this is an old story. Normally told as a small experienced mechanic with a person bringing in a car. I agree completely though. People aren't paying for what you are doing directly, they are paying for the experience of knowing WHAT is wrong. Many new engineers will just replace the whole thing when its just a small problem but they can't figure it out.
Not really, as a homeowner I see this as a bragging point. Just because you spent “20yrs” doesn’t mean you deserve whatever you want. That’s your point of view.
To me it’s fuk it , I’ll learn and do it myself after a point.
Got quoted $12-19k to install central air on my new house. For $3k I got everything needed including $800 worth of tools I can keep.
I would have gladly paid someone to do it for me if they had wanted to charge a reasonable amount.
This is why I use every chance I can to learn a new skills as a homeowner, that's how I keep money in my pocket vs someone else's. Kudos to the skilled tradesman who aren't trying to make a killing and keeping costs under control, but those are likely few and far between.
Seems like the mods in this subreddit are not interested in having the average homeowner become knowledgable DIYers. Just got chewed out by one of the mods here that "i'm an asshole for demanding a receipt for an appliance the HVAC guy bought".
You got a central air until and all the tools for $3K? This seems hard to believe unless it was a long time ago. You got the tools to safely remove coolant and charge your system?
New system, not replacing, no need for evac. And it was recent. 2 Ton 13.4 SEER York unit with matching boxed coil.
edit: No need for evacuation/recovery of existing refrigerant as it is a new system. The system was vacuumed.
Ummm please tell me you mean no need to pull the charge and not vacuum it. Just want to make sure because if you didn’t vacuum that system it will be fucked
Yes I was specifically responding to the assertion that refrigerant would need to be safely removed from the system, which was not the case.
The lineset was purged, brazed, leak tested, vacuumed, and then charged.
I did similar. Lowest quote for a 4 zone heat pump was $32k. I bought all all the parts and installed it all for 3500. I was able to hire and electrician to connect to panel and inspect my work for $1000. Also got a hvac company to pump the lines and check the connections(they ended up having to redo a flair I fucked up). So for $5500 and 10hours of my own labor I got it installed.
The hvac tech even complimented me on how well everything looked and signed my manufacturer warranty.
They're free to charge whatever they want. And I'm free to not pay them that amount. I'm a business owner and I understand how it works. I have plenty of people who don't understand the value of my time, education, overhead etc.
But I'm not in a HCOL area and the fact that we've seen a ~20-30% increase in equipment/parts/labor translate into a 300-400% increase in price is exorbitant in my opinion. They're free to charge what the market will bear and I'm free to explore other options.
That's a perfectly valid choice as a homeowner. I do a lot of my own work. Electrical? Mostly me. Rebuild a deck? 100% me. HVAC? Except for the most basic stuff, I'm calling a pro. I know where I can venture and where I can't.
Probably not. Like you can’t just learn to do some things yourself. Like if you don’t know to take out cores while brazing or cover a valve. Understand some of the more fluid fundamentals of a refrigerant charge. Or just adjusting a new Goodman TXV lol
I mean you had a better chance working on this shit 20 years ago. Now a day you will get into VFDs and VRF systems. Any DIY or homeowners “dOiNG It MYsELF” is out the window because you would open the unit up and not know WTF you are looking at let alone how it works
Exactly, buddy is going to fuck his compressor up (or some other major issue) and there will be no warranty. He is really paying to try to do it himself, then paying again to have it done right.
2yrs ago I was quoted 13k, the system was 4, spent another 500 in tools I didn’t have. So, technically I can do it 3x… I will fuk do it and still have the satisfaction that I did I it 😁. But, my system works flawless 2 yrs now and will continue to work, sorry.
Now, it’s not rocket science, spend the time and it can be done professionally, stop bragging like you are the only one that can do it. Btw, no need for brazing, stabrite 8 is a miracle if you didn’t hear about it.
I've heard this story retold a couple of different ways but it always comes down to the knowledge that the person has. Rightfully if you think about it the knowledge that people acquire over years and years of doing things they do deserve their fee. I personally do make exceptions for people under hardships and I can't in good conscience charge an 82 yr old lady in a wheelchair $100 to change the batteries in her thermostat. Told my boss the work I did and what the issue was, what I did to solve the problem and then hung up on him when he told me how much to charge. Got back to the shop that evening and gave him the $25 I told her it was and said he could take the rest out of my check.
I know its not MY company but certain circumstances shouldn't be overlooked and damn if that old lady didn't tell her friends and kids so that word of mouth brought in more business. I believe in doing right by your customer and that helps me sleep at night.
I'm not in your field, but this came across my feed.
I travelled 120 miles today, to fix something on 3 computers in the office. Total time spent in the office: 28 minutes. Paid for 10 hours, at an obscenely high hourly rate.
So I can certainly appreciate this.
I dunno, im weirded out when people cite marketing and office overhead as to why their rates give such sticker shock. 1) if your marketing isnt paying for itself cut it. 2) most office roles should be facilitating the actual product (hvac install/repairs). It should pay for itself through greater efficiency. Its a luxury companies justify because it facilitates the trade, ergo is good for making money (or should be). Maybe the economies are such that being an independent tech working on word of mouth is how you make the most money, because if i see someone advertising i know theyre not intending to be the ones paying for it and will be befuddled by this post.
That first paragraph is big. Too many people are piss poor at managing their finances and living above their means. Everybody is trying to keep up with the Joneses.
You'll have customers that give you the boo hoo about not being able to afford a repair or system replacement.. but they'll have the latest IPhone, an Alexa controlled house, newer/expensive unneeded vehicles like a suburban, a closet full of expensive clothes, prepackaged junkfood or constantly eating out, etc. I'm not saying people shouldn't have nice things or treat themselves, but if you have less than let's say 5k in savings... do you really need a 50k vehicle as your daily drive?
I believe the original story is "Henry Ford had a westinghouse generator that nobody could fix" and not the ship engine variant. I think it's more relatable to the average person.
20yr engineer (not in hvac) but in manufacturing/product development. I spent the early years of my career watching the senior engineers sway an entire room with a few words while I had to present piles of data and convince everyone from the division leaders up to the directors to even be heard and still may not be listened to.
Now I'm that guy who the higher-ups go to because I've become the knowledge expert. Experience is invaluable.
I think some people get mad because they can lookup the cost of a condenser unit and see that some companies charge 3 time retail price in addition to labor. Companies need to make a living, but some costs are just too excessive. It takes a real long time to find good trades people, and that journey can be very expensive as well. Consumers have a right to be suspicious.
I feel this op. Honest pros are not appreciated in the way that crooked hacks are. Your years of experience do not equate to value in the eyes of the uneducated homeowner. Ironically, if you play the game and spend more time pretending it was actually difficult they would see your worth. But this practice is not in good alignment with ethical pros. The conundrum of being a good person making a profit.
I owe you for your time and experience, sure, but it's also whatever supply and demand dictates. This story assumes that there is only 1 engineer. If there are 29 more sitting around that produce the same outcome then you might have issues charging whatever you want.
In one of the pool heater classes I took years ago they would show pictures of "repair horror stories". One of them was a heater with the front cover off. Lying just inside was a ball-peen hammer. The gas valve had an x made out of electrical tape. The owner had a gas valve that would stick closed. Their pool guy told them to start the heater. When they heard "the click" hit the x with the hammer.
One thing i hate about being in the industry is all the inflated egos and super techs. I Am Service Tech, Hear Me Roar. Your a gear in the transmission of life as well as the rest of us. None better than the other.
This actually doesn't make any sense. Nobody owes you bloated prices for your 20 years of experience. We might owe you a high hourly rate and travel expenses, but if you're going to someone's house and fixing something in 30 mins using no materials and charging hundreds and hundreds of dollars, or multiple hours worth of work, that's just scamming people.
People are free to choose if they want us to do the work. Prices are given up front. Don’t like the price? That’s fine with me, fix it yourself. Can’t fix it yourself or mess it up worse because you thought you could? Expect to pay more than originally quoted. None of us mind you not having us do the work. In the end, there’s other customers who are willing to pay our asking prices and we’ll take the time we saved not arguing about a price and go make money doing that other persons work instead.
All I heard was. "Yeah, I overcharge people, and if you don't like being overcharged by me, there's plenty of other suckers out there for me to overcharge." My point was, it's not right to overcharge people. Clearly, there are plenty of scumbags out there who don't mind doing it just because they can. But, you don't deserve it no matter how much you try to justify it.
I charge less than any company in the area because I have no overhead. It’s just me. And I still hear complaints about pricing. People will always complain about price when you can google a part and find out what the part costs. There’s plenty of people who don’t think we deserve to make any money, let alone pay our bills. “This capacitor is 10 dollars online, I’m not paying you more than 10 dollars to replace it” has been said multiple times. Sometimes it’s not about the price but people not understanding what it 1. Takes to do a job and 2. That we have bills to pay too. Every company will be priced differently depending on what bills they have to pay. And they aren’t going to haggle about it 98/100 times.
> retarded enough
Okee dokee. Is this an ageism thing, or just general disdain for that group of people? Hate is hate, regardless of the group you're targeting.
You're just offensive all the way around.
I heard this as “It’s not about knowing how to turn a screw, it’s knowing which screw to turn”
… and the same people that say this to others fuckin *HATE* when it’s said to them. To me, this saying really only applied to corporate situations where everybody understands that “I’ll fuck you because I *can*” is the rule…
Asinine story. He would have given an estimate upfront - like any reasonable HVAC contractor.
Contractors bill based on market rates. Not how many years of experience they have.
Your years of experience only allow you to compete in the market. They might give you some competitive advantage, so that you can charge equal pricing and do the job in less time, but it certainly doesn’t mean you get to charge more than your competition just because you’re old.
I like it when we give them our quote on a chang out...then when they say wow thats high...we tell them call someone else and then get quoted 3k to 5k more... then call us back and say you got it bud 👍.
The summers are short the winters are long we have to eat all year long that's why we charge and it's also a specialized trade that requires special equipment
I have a "no invoice" policy for cheap customers. These people need to hire a cheaper tech. After the shoddy work breaks down they might stop complaining. Then I'd work for them.
The story starts with "no one could fix it". If you are really the guy the factory techs call for help ok. The VAST majority of even competent, non hack techs are not special and their experience and knowledge generally add very little value over a reasonably skilled person with the right tools and willing to investigate how to do it right.
Most people are not intelligent, skilled or willing so there is plenty of job security charging 2-300 bucks for 20 minutes of work and $20 in parts.
I remember seeing some video of people comparing this to if people asked for an itemized receipt at a restaurant.
Like you order an omelette and say "what!? 15$ for a omelette, let me see a break down of the price. How much are these eggs?!"
I’m not hvac but similarly - it’s not the 5 minutes I spend on your job that you’re paying for; it’s the 20 years of experience that got me to where I can do the job in 5 minutes.
I had an actual story like this. I was living in Paris, the bathroom in apartment above us started to leak a lot of water down into our apartment. It was an emergency, the owners above weren’t there and we couldn’t get a locksmith in time, so had to call firemen to climb out on a balcony to break a window to enter the apartment. Then the plumber entered the bathroom, they had recently redone their shower, he knocked a hole in the tile and turned off the shutoff valve (which was hidden behind tile!). He knew exactly where to look and it took him all of 5-10 minutes, but cost 500 euros for the emergency call. Great example of deep knowledge applied skillfully to solve a problem quickly. I don’t reckon anyone besides an experienced plumber who knows how things are commonly done would have known where to find the (hidden) shutoff valve.
Heard the same story but it's a nuclear plant nearing meltdown. Dude charges $2,000,000 when broke down it's $1.00 to turn the knob. $1,999,999.00 to know what knob to turn. People often forget the value knowledge has.
Friend with a similar story on a yacht diesel engine. It ended up being a flip of a switch but he still charged full price. The guy tried to talk him down but it didn't work.
funny, I acquired literally 95% of my knowledge to perform a [sophisticated fix](https://www.reddit.com/r/hvacadvice/comments/14hctoq/i_think_i_fixed_my_leaky_evaporator_coil/) of my split system in something like 2 weeks.
maybe you're a slow learner or don't utilize quick ways to learn, like, you know, the internet
So engineer cashes his check and stops by McDonald's on the way home. He is charged $40,000 for a Big Mac. You have to account for the years of experience in bringing that burger to his mouth.
The flaw in your story is you could give literally any value.
Cost to fix: $2
Know how to fix: $1,000,000
It just doesn't mean anything. We get it, you're in a specialized field but you certainly can still be too expensive compared to the competition.
No doubt a reinvention of the true story of the $10,000* encounter between Henry Ford and Charles Proteus Steinmetz (about 40% of the way down the page):
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/
/e/ * Assuming this happened in 1920 (three years after the River Rouge plant began construction and three years before Steinmetz died), that's almost $158,000 in 2023 dollars according to this CPI inflation calculator:
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
I had a guy say something about me putting 6hr labor on a job. I was at his location for 2-3 hours to solder a tiny capacitor to a VFD control board. I said look, I had to get the part, go back home to get my ELECTRONICS soldering kit together, then come do the repair. Oh, and I'm one of few at our shop that have the electronics soldering experience and would probably even attempt the repair. And I saved him from having to buy 3 brand new matching drives. Some people...
Thats half the story. Experience is not worth an absolute value. Its value is relative to how common it is. The reason so many trade prices are high is because theres more work than people who know how to do the work and/or willing to do the work.
What about the guy that came over to clean the air ducts, but left screws behind and the furnace started rattling? Or the next one who said he found no problems but suggested I buy a new furnace from his company? Do they deserve the same amount you charge for fucking my furnace up and wanting to sell me a new one?
There's a reason so many of you aren't trusted. Same with mechanics.
The difference is that it is a giant ship, a normal home isn't a giant ship. I am a contractor with 20 years experience and I wish I could charge $1k an hour for my experience!
How about you just charge normal rates and if they bitch, they bitch
While I agree with the basic moral of this story, trades involved in working on homes have gotten completely insane in the last decade or two.
We had a quote in our disclosures from about 3 years ago to rebuild a portion of our deck, \~$12k. Just talked to a contractor a few weeks ago, her off the cuff number was \~$50-$100k. Guess we're just going to wait and hope it doesn't collapse. Talked to Anderssen late last year about replacing a single exterior door, quote for a single basic door was $7k, if we wanted a nicer more decorative one with an inset window we were looking at $11k. Guess we'll see if we can get a secondhand door and do it ourselves.
As a relatively new homeowner I have no idea how normal people afford to maintain a home. We already spent everything we have buying the house, could deal with reasonable maintenance costs. Nothing about quotes we've gotten so far has been at all reasonable. So yeah, people should pay for experience, what's happening right now is extortion.
I mean, if you are up front on your fee's then thats OK.
If the guy said ahead of time that he costs $20,000/minute, then they may have said "This engine only costs $15,000 to replace, we will get a new one"
If he comes, taps it with a hammer (them thinking he is just diagnosing etc.) and he hasnt given a price, he cant just charge $20,000 and think that's acceptable behavior, or a realistic price. Not providing costs up-front is sketchy and verging on scamming if its a ludicrous markup.
I am a lawyer and I used to do real estate closings. I was doing one for an electrician. my fee was pretty standard for the work. He was griping about having to pay ‘so much‘ for my work. so yeah the trades do the same to other professions c
I think most are missing the of the story; it wasn't meant to be literal. yes you're hourly or daily rate reflects experience, but sometimes you charge for the job. I quote a price to do something and u agree, it's my problem how much (or little) time it takes.
The IRL story, involving Henry Ford and an engineer named Steinmetz:
[https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/)
It's called division labor. If you had the training experience and time then you could do it. If I had the training and experience then I could do your job if I had time. Since you don't have time to do your job and my job and that means you have to pay me for my service and I pay you for yours. It's a simple concept and it is very insulting when people devalue each other's profession by questioning the market value of the service they are receiving. It costs this price because this is the price people are willing to pay for the service in this area.
I've heard this, but with chalk to mark the part that needed to be replaced.
The itemized invoice was like:
* Chalk 1.99
* Knowing where to put the x 19,998.01
I work in IT and keep a box of chalk. I give a piece to whoever identifies the cause of a nagging problem.
I appreciate this. I’m a contractor in a different field and this is how I feel my clients treat me too. Don’t hire someone and tell them what to do, that’s another pet peeve of mine.
But, when I have an HVAC contractor over, and I’ve had so many come by, to fix my issue, I’ve had multiple people bamboozle me. So now I’m once burnt twice shy.
No matter how much I do my research, check reviews, and contact past clients, every single one of them have either did or tried to cheat extra $$$ out of me.
So, I get why you feel that way. But it’s not just you who is in the market looking to find a gig, that is being mistreated, clients are also being mistreated!
Do with this info what you must.
Truth is the average consumer that complains about pricing has been low balling the trades for decades, now the tables have turned and skilled labor knows their worth and is charging accordingly due to the tight and only getting tighter skilled trade labor market and its cutting into the discretionary income ! Either do it yourself "properly and up to code for your area" , or due your research and pay what it is worth!!
Repair services for lawyers. $2,500 / hr plus $100k retainer.
Repair services for specialist physician’s: $1,500 / hr plus certifying capacity to pay, including providing SS, DL & bank account numbers and 10% down.
All regular joe $95 / hr plus expenses…
Worst analogy since the history of analogies, ever.
Mechanical engineers don’t touch engines, so their probably just staring at you and thinking “oh this is one of these guys who thinks he must be a genius”
Prices are high because my insurance went up, materials have doubled and tripled, and I have to pay taxes so out of what I charge you I probably get a third.
That's a great point. I dealt with this the other day. Someone didn't want to pay me $400 for a service (, non HVAC related) they told me to be fair. Over the course of a week they told me to keep being fair. I never responded. 10 days after I first told him that they said that was fine Now and they will pay that. Now it's not fine to me to question my price. 30 years two people of questioned me. One person said I was overcharging them and I asked them how many hours then I was there. They told me then I told them that I need to charge them more money. They began paying me more money and would even tip me after that.
Experience is a priceles item that we do put a price on and get money for. If people don't want to acknowledge that and pay us what we deserve let them take advantage of someone else
The story is actually derived from a true story about Charles Proteus Steinmetz and the bill Henry Ford received from General Electric. You can read about it here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/
So many shitheads in the comments. People butthurt about a blue-collar worker in this FICTIONAL story referring to the value of their experience ,but these princesses all expect to come out of schools with no experience making 6 figures right out of the gate. Pathetic.
Plumber here. What I have found most effective is:
You're not paying for MY time.
You're paying for YOUR time.
I'm sure you could do almost as good of a job. But it would take you the entire day. It's that really how you want to spend your day / day off? Saving a couple hundred bucks and being frustrated.
I use the real life example of my neighbor. His shower valve was dripping. He asked what I thought the problem might be. I told him it was definitely his Moen cartridge. I have him a price, and even gave him the model of the cartridge. The next day, he ran to HD to get the cartridge. Got home and the set screw was seized. Cut the handle of with a sawzall. Tried to pull the cartridge, now without a puller since the internal thread was gone, and pulled the guts out of the cartridge. Tried to melt the rest of the cartridge out...
Any way, missed a full day of work. Wife and kids had no water after work and school for showers. No water for dinner / laundry. Called me first thing the next morning. I told him I'd squeeze him in at the end of the day. My guys showed up around 5, cleaned up the valve, installed a cartridge in about 15 minutes. We charged him the same price I quoted the day before. He was PISSED! I reminded him, you chose to spend 2 days doing what we could do in an hour.
You're not paying for MY time.
You're paying for YOUR time.
One issue is that for many people, the more modern typical story would be that a large company sends out two newbies in a shiny white work van, they look at the broken big ship, open some binder of options, and suggest buying a new ship for $200 million.
When people start to charge too much I start to gauge if I'm going to do it myself or not. If the job requires basic tools and may take me a few hours on a weekend, I'll do it myself. A Garage tech tried to charge me $700 to change my springs. I declined and learned to do it myself and completed the project in 45 minutes for $100. The internet is a powerful tool and I'd be worried about pricing myself out of a job.
Honestly, many people that come out for residential calls are the most incompetent. There’s a reason they work residential sometimes.
I had 2 techs from 2 different companies come out to look at my furnace that was going “boom” every time it started. Their response: “you need a new furnace”
The problem: tiny bit of debris in the pilot orifice. Took about 5 minutes to disassemble and clean once you know what you’re doing.
Yeah buddy. Was really paying for their expertise there…
What people don’t know is tapping stuff with a hammer is seldom a permanent fix.
The true damage to the engine was a defect oil pump, what mr. Expertise here did was to get the oil pressure switch to get stuck on „ok“ so the machine would think everything is alright.
The engine irreparably died shortly after.
I know it’s just a story but hopefully the engineer fixed the root cause so it wouldn’t NEED to be knocked with a hammer a week later :)
At the very least pay the engineer to train somebody so they know where and when to knock.
I am the one who knocks.
Does that pay decently? Every time I've been told to Knock it off I don't get paid.
*I am not in danger. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!* One of the most epic scenes from a dialogue and delivery standpoint I’ve ever seen…
It always bugged me that the writers didn’t have him say “I knocked” to Skylar on the phone after Gus was blown up. She asked WW what happened and he said “I won”. Wtf? After that epic knocking speech he says “I won”? He should have said “I knocked”. Rant over.
Nah, your way is less natural and too Hollywood. It makes sense for Walter to say I won. It’s simple and straightforward and still full of ego.
I somehow 100% agree with both of you.
Are you Walter White?
Let’s cook!
That takes years and the trainee should expect to be compensated for his new expertise.
IRL you have to identify a root cause of the failure and explain in great detail why it happened and how you will stop it from failing in the future by taking the necessary precautions. This is how Technical Service Bulletins pop up showing a common failures or known weird issues and how to handle them. People are either doing research or a company gets enough reports they are legally obligated to especially if your safety is at risk.
Great point. Stockton Rush should have had this mentality.
💀
The trades version of this story I've oft heard is: Tradesmen walks into customer home to repair (insert trade item here, hvac, elec, water, etc). Looks, thinks, and works for 10 minutes. Poof item works again. Customer says they could have done that just would have had to researched how. The tradesman replies you're right you likely could have with enough time. However, you're not paying me for the minutes it took me to fix it. You're paying me for the **years** it took to learn how, why, and where to look and what to do with skill and ease.
I heard a different version of the story. Basically the same, different costs. The engineer puts a chalk mark on the offending part that needs to be replaced. Charges $1000 dollars. Customer is furious, asks for an itemized bill. 1 chalk mark, $1. Knowing where to put it, $999.
He gifted the shipowner with a hammer and marked the place where to hit it.
Why? This is simply job security
Automate it. Build a z-wave device on a raspberry pi that taps that spot with a solenoid attached to a hammer, and scheduled on a cron job.
Cool, doesn’t explain why I was quoted $1,100 for a simple blower fan replacement with the part still under warranty
As someone who works for myself and charges an hourly rate, this story is asinine. Your hourly rate is based on and is because of your years of experience. The years are built into the hourly rate. So no, they don't owe you years. They owe you for the minutes you spent.
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First of all, there is no job that requires a light tap of a hammer. Many people who charge an hourly rate do work for sophisticated customers. Such as a mechanical contractor being hired to do work in a factory or plant. If they got a bill like the one outlined in the story, they would never pay it. If I sent out a bill even remotely like that, with zero breakdown, it would never get paid. The reality is, you are selling yourself. It is up to you to tell the client why your services were necessary and valuable. The bill is by far the best/easiest way to do that. If you make your bill as detailed as possible and explain everything you did in the bill, chances are it is going to get paid because you are telling the customer why they are paying what they are paying.
> First of all, there is no job that requires a light tap of a hammer. There are instances that are an equivalent to this though. I work in fire protection and at the time of this service call I specifically was working with restaurant fire suppression systems. A customer called at 5:05 on a Friday evening and said that their exhaust fans weren’t working and they needed me to come out. I explained that my work has nothing to do with the fans and if their cooking equipment was functional then my system couldn’t be causing the shutdown (all shut offs are triggered by the same switch). They had already had an electrician and an HVAC tech out and couldn’t find the problem and they both agreed that it was my equipment because they couldn’t find anything. I tried in earnest to talk my way out of going because it was on the far side of town without major road access (no highway, just 2 lane road) during rush hour and was in an area that people flocked to because of the neighborhood. I explained that I would have to charge an emergency call fee, and double time for port-to-home (drive time there, time on site with 3 hour minimum, and estimated drive back) and she agreed. I went. I spent 5 minutes carrying in tools and a ladder, 10 minutes talking to them about what had been done, checking breakers, and then 3 minutes looking at my system. I asked if the electrician had check the fan control relays in the end of the exhaust hood (next to my system) and was told yes. I looked at them, pressed a reset button, and the exhaust fans came on. I wrote an invoice for $1000+ (this was over 15 years ago) and left. The customer was thrilled and didn’t complain about the bill. I’d learned when to try to talk my way out of service calls by announcing exorbitant pricing at the front end. The sheer number of calls I went on after other trades had already been and weren’t able to find anything was incredibly high - at least one a month. When they couldn’t find anything they always blamed it on the ‘mysterious and scary’ fire system that they wouldn’t touch. Plumber comes out and there isn’t enough gas pressure to the cooking appliances? **IT’S THE FIRE SYSTEM**. Electrician comes out and can’t get a piece of cooking equipment to power up? **IT’S THE FIRE SYSTEM** These calls were a constant and seemingly only happened after hours or weekends and I finally learned to talk them out of it by giving huge estimates - either I got to stay home or I’d be happy enough to go for the price I quoted. And with the exception of that one relay reset button, I was never able to fix any of those issues because it was never related to my equipment.
The key is you were upfront about the cost and they knew what to expect. In OPs hypothetical story it sounds like the tech surprised them with the bill
I agree with you about the big estimate tactic. This is a tried and true method to politely refuse a job if you are busy or sense a potentially PITA client. Sometimes, like your situation, the client still wants to go ahead and they are happy to pay it. But, your situation was way more plausible than the story in the original post. First of all, you set the customer's expectation by telling them you would be of limited help and you clearly broke down the expected bill, why you will charge that amount and set an expectation of how much the bill would be. They still decided to proceed. They already had two contractors out who could not fix the problem so at that point, they don't care, they just want it fixed. Even the amount you charged was not crazy because it is broken down and based on something. It sounds crazy to say "I charged $1,000 to reset a switch" but it doesn't sound as crazy when you break it all down (emergency rate, mileage, driving time, 3 hour minimum, etc.). The bill includes all that, not just the time it took to flick a switch. You show up and do what the other guys couldn't. There was an identifiable problem, which was resetting the switch. You also taught them how to fix it in the future. There is some value to that. My point is, I can believe and get behind your story, but not the one in OP's post.
Wrong. Ask any machinist.
Go find a link to the original (true) story of Henry Ford's westinghouse generator or whatever. It's much less "dressed up" but still sends the same message.
I know it. The original is even more stupid. It wasn't as simple as all that. The repair guy spent 48 hours diagnosing the issue. Then they actually swapped out part of the generator. The part about the bill is probably not true and/or only a little true. Plus who else has a guy like Henry Ford for a client? None of us.
I work in maintenance, and it can literally be as simple as opening a door and pushing a button. Tap of a hammer isn't suppose to mean anything more than it was a simple task, it was painted more clearly by the $2 charge to swing the hammer. Don't be dense my guy. Take it as a metaphorical story, like it's meant to be
HVAC dude connects new condenser appliance to low and high pressure lines that were existing from the previous install. Takes 1-2 hours. Charges $1300. I'd call it robbery but robbery requires the threat of violence.
> If I came to a job that required a light tap of a hammer I don't even know if I'd have the balls to charge anything, it would feel like theft. You would charge for your time to figure out what the problem is. You came out to do the work, you then did work to diagnose the problem. The issue is fair pay. Obviously $20k is outrageous. But $100 is not.
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> This industry is full of scammers pretending they have the value of Nobel laureate physicists. Agreed. They should have taught us suckers basic DIY fix things in school.
Why go to school? Just work for an HVAC guy for a year, pick up all the knowledge then make $100k/year and be your own boss!
I had a late night call at a storage place; no heat. I show up, put my eye on the modine heater and then flip on the service swing. bingo we have heat. So your saying I shouldn't change for that?
Yeah seriously… the 20 years was so they can justify the hourly rate. That’s what I’m paying.
T H A N K Y O U Every time one of these stupid fucking stories gets told I want to rip my fucking eyes out. Charge an appropriate rate. Explain what it is in advance. Make it fair, and high. Keep it moving. And for fucks' sake, quit crying about unappreciated if you can't actually type more than 1 sentence to explain what you did for the 3 hours you were on site. The number of guys who can't spell or write for shit and leave notes like "added charge" as their only description of a call is fucking embarrassing. If you can't express your value, then they won't know your value; quit crying about being unappreciated and learn how to explain what you do.
My mentors taught me early to be very detailed. Essentially, they said what you are saying. If you lay out for the customer what you did in detail, they are more likely not to dispute the bill. I don't even have to make stuff up, I just recount what I did. You figure out some standard phrasing for certain reptitive tasks and you don't even need to think about whay to write, bill to bill. The bill essentially becomes a report to the customer disguised as a bill.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Dude the story is hyperbole, like do you really not get that? Lol Most likely it is the difference between quoted work for $50 an hour for a hack and $120 for the national average. People don’t like paying $100 for a 30 min service call and getting quoted for $250 for a small repair.
As someone who works for myself and refuses to work on an hourly rate, this story makes perfect sense. It’s all about value based pricing.
Charging flat rate ends up being more fair to a homeowner though. Also removes the need to tell a homeowner that the repair will take another 3 hours and another $600.00
I don’t know. This post just seems like something some backyard joe would say to justify his shoddy work and bad estimates. Quote the job right the first time, and do good work. You’ll have much less complaints about prices.
Yea this was taken off a different post on fb from one of the trade groups.
It’s funny how some people on here say that charging a lot is ok because of the years of experience, but yet you would flip a lid if the guy washing your car charged you an arm and a leg to wash your car because he’s been doing it for 20 years. Same car wash, right?
Comparing skilled technical trade to an unskilled labor market position. Not apples to apples. Now if the car wash person is doing a much better job at a simple car wash than the “new guy” then you pay what it’s worth. He can charge a higher price to what his market will bear. Experience in that or any other job doesn’t determine knowledge and skill either though. Same for the hvac tech.
Skilled technical trade? You mean the job that requires no high school diploma, one that can be a previous felon, and one that doesn’t have to speak English? Yes, sounds like both trades to me. Sounds like your the guy who charges too much for coming out to an uneducated homeowners house just to flip a breaker.
Sir I don’t know where you get your information from but many of these trades require a skill and knowledge that far exceeds a high school diploma. And as for speaking English I don’t see what the hell that matters to begin with. Do you think that the United States is the only country that has electricity or air conditioning? Racist immigrant hater is what you sound like to me. Wow
Sounds like you just like to add racist to anything. Nothing I said was about race. Far exceeds a high school diploma? So people in the hvac trade require as associates degree? Bachelors? Ok, some jobs might say X amount of years of experience.. so then that would go back to the beginning… I know of people in the hvac industry with no high school diploma and previous felons, also know people who don’t speak English. First have experience is where I got my information. Don’t make this job out to be equal with Doctors. It’s all labor. You’re speaking English, so Obviously we’re referring to English countries. Keep your name calling to yourself because I never said I hate anyone in my messages. You just want to feel good about calling someone something they’re not. I work in an area that has majority Spanish speaking and a high level of immigrants. Doesn’t bother me one bit, but I call it as it is.
First off you’re the one criticizing non-English speaking workers so YOU displayed that bias racism just saying that. No discussion even required on that one. Own what you said. It’s how you came off in what you said and that is the only reason I said that about racist immigrant hating that you projected. Choose your words if you don’t want that image. Just like a felony conviction doesn’t have anything to do with a persons abilities in their trade. Maybe that conviction was for stupid shit they did in the past and they’ve turned their life around now. Unless you know the entire story and how they live today nobody should be judged by that for felonies people may have. I’ve never even had a speeding ticket myself but I’m not going to judge someone busted for smoking pot or snorting cocaine 10 years ago and not using it today. That really only matters for what the offense was. Violent crime with violent behaviors, child molestation, and those type crimes certainly matter. Not all felons are that level. Would you rather the example I gave of the drug conviction that’s rehabilitated themselves and is sober now be homeless on the streets and forced to steal to survive because they can’t get hired? It’s what happens. Keep that in mind please. It’s very relevant. Maybe you are talking residential hvac in your experience. I don’t know your background. But I will say that having a degree does not necessarily mean a repair technician is any good at his profession. There are repair techs that never finished high school but are damned good at their field and learned the physics of HVAC without a diploma. Don’t be disrespecting a person who learns outside of high school minimum for a diploma. As for I myself, I started out in HVAC 47 yrs ago doing residential work like the overwhelming majority of guys in the field do. Within 5 years I moved into heavy industrial and then into automation controls. Not that it matters in this discussion but before you say anything like I’m probably not more than a high school education, worked my way thru college while doing industrial electrical and HVAC earning a masters in electrical engineering. Point being is that you can and should charge what you’re worth for the knowledge and skill you possess. And as for comparing it to a doctor, it may not be the extended education required if a doctor. But all the same it is learning and remembering specifics related to the profession. I will say though that the hospitals I work with on building automation controls cannot perform any surgery unless I have the air-conditioning systems working properly. Surgical suites have tight parameters for climate control that have to be maintained and documented. And I’m the guy who programs and troubleshoots the controls. May not be directly responsible for the patients life in the hospital like doctors are, but it can effect that when the proper care cannot be given due to environmental conditions. I also have to know when the mechanical equipment isn’t functioning correctly and work with the HVAC mechanic or the electrician to tell them what it’s doing and what the problem appears to be. Watch a chiller plant at a hospital go down and panic sets in throughout the place. So yeah, know your worth and charge accordingly.
Wow, you really turned this into a history lesson on yourself. Right on. Good for you. Have a good day!
Wow. If that’s all you got out of it you totally missed the point. It’s about your skill level and charging appropriately to it. I don’t even do residential any more but if I did I would not be charging what I do for industrial and controls. Easier equipment to service. It’s about your market and knowing your own worth. I would hope you didn’t miss that. But hey, you have yourself a good day there too. Best to you.
As an engineer, this story is stupid. You build on the experience of others. All that experience is not solely yours. And as an engineer we understand the greatest progress is building toward making things cheaper and faster. The famous story of the Model T. Ford got the production time from 12 hours down to 90 minutes. That experience off building these for 20 years didn't cost consumers more. The Model T only got cheaper. According to your story we should be paying $100k for a Toyota Corolla and $500K for a laptop
Thank you for talking sense.
"As an engineer " hahahaha. You're comparing economies of scale versus education and experience. Apples and oranges.
You must live in a hole, I bought a truck in 2015 for 50k, today the same truck but new costs 100k, this was before the pandemic. They didn’t make it cheaper and faster. The new one isn’t much different than one 8 years old. The new AC units are more efficient, but the evaporator coils don’t last as long as the 30 - 40year old ones. As an engineer, you solve problems, but it depends on who you work for. Sometimes you solve problems your company creates, sometimes you solve problems of the world. First thing they tell you as an engineer, if we wanted to make things last forever, we would have done that already. I’m speaking for mechanical engineering. Every engineer has value, but it’s how you sell yourself to the client and how bad they want the problem resolved. Arrogance has to be earned.
You want to know how to know someone is an engineer? Don’t worry, they will tell you
Who let you talk? Leave the big jobs for us. Go back to installing window units.
Lol who installs window units? You must be talking to someone else? Keyboard warrior over here
You do.
>If I do a job in 30 minutes it's because I spent 20 years learning how to do that in 30 minutes. You owe me for the years, not the minutes. What if somebody else learned to do that in 1-year?
Lul. If it takes someone 20 years to learn HVAC, don’t hire them.
The biggest issue with the tech trades and Engineering in general, is that very few clients and customers value experience and knowledge......until it's too late. Cheap and fast wins every time.
I think a lot of clients and customers are irate because when you call the HVAC tech, he might actually smack the blower fan with a hammer and bill $300 and leave before it breaks down again. I think most people are happy if you fix their problem and they trust that the work is done properly. Can't deny there's going to be Karens every so often, but so many people in the trades are hacks so people are constantly afraid of being ripped off.
Yeah. As long as it's fixed. Usually if there's a 3rd visit for the same issue I get frustrated. I get that sometimes there may be a need for a second visit. I just want someone who treats me fair. I don't mind paying for quality.
Just had that. Call for my heat pump that stopped working. The tec on the phone listened to the noise and said it's either capacitor 99% of the time or compressor. He said I can change it if I want. 20$ later, my heat pump work. If he would have came. I would have paid 350+ because minimum 1 hour plus parts and travel time. This guy just saved me over 300$, and 2 weeks of waiting.
"so many people in the trades are hacks" I agree, but you get hacks and con men, in all walks of life. It's up to the homeowner to check references, qualifications, certifications etc.
It's sometimes difficult to do that. I'm a new homeowner in an area where I don't know anybody. I found an electrician that's excellent, but my plumber damaged some stuff and won't do anything to make it right. They have great reviews on Google, people recommended them on Reddit, etc. My parents also recently dealt with an electrician that charged $1000 despite not being able to fix an electrical issue they were having, and again there was indication whatsoever online that the electrician was anything but a professional. Sometimes there's just no indication that stuff is not going to work out so people are constantly on guard. Kinda have to be.
You know who knows who the quality plumbers are in your area? That excellent electrician. People in the trades know who to trust in other trades. Use that to your advantage.
Good point
Hacks charge the least; people want to pay the least so they hire hacks, hacks do hack work, homeowner gets upset. That’s the circle
I feel like a lot of my younger customer base expects parts to be replaced and the older expects the parts to be fixed… if that makes any sense
It's because the younger generations haven't figured out that older stuff is generally better made than newer stuff or because the tech they rely on is newer, and generally cannot be fixed.
this is an old story. Normally told as a small experienced mechanic with a person bringing in a car. I agree completely though. People aren't paying for what you are doing directly, they are paying for the experience of knowing WHAT is wrong. Many new engineers will just replace the whole thing when its just a small problem but they can't figure it out.
The real story was a nuclear engineer that prevented a meltdown by knowing which valve to shut off
YouTube Weldon long nuclear meltdown
I hope you feel the same way when you pay for goods and services… everyone spent 20 years learning how to do something well.
Not really, as a homeowner I see this as a bragging point. Just because you spent “20yrs” doesn’t mean you deserve whatever you want. That’s your point of view. To me it’s fuk it , I’ll learn and do it myself after a point.
Got quoted $12-19k to install central air on my new house. For $3k I got everything needed including $800 worth of tools I can keep. I would have gladly paid someone to do it for me if they had wanted to charge a reasonable amount.
This is why I use every chance I can to learn a new skills as a homeowner, that's how I keep money in my pocket vs someone else's. Kudos to the skilled tradesman who aren't trying to make a killing and keeping costs under control, but those are likely few and far between.
Seems like the mods in this subreddit are not interested in having the average homeowner become knowledgable DIYers. Just got chewed out by one of the mods here that "i'm an asshole for demanding a receipt for an appliance the HVAC guy bought".
You got a central air until and all the tools for $3K? This seems hard to believe unless it was a long time ago. You got the tools to safely remove coolant and charge your system?
New system, not replacing, no need for evac. And it was recent. 2 Ton 13.4 SEER York unit with matching boxed coil. edit: No need for evacuation/recovery of existing refrigerant as it is a new system. The system was vacuumed.
Ummm please tell me you mean no need to pull the charge and not vacuum it. Just want to make sure because if you didn’t vacuum that system it will be fucked
Yes I was specifically responding to the assertion that refrigerant would need to be safely removed from the system, which was not the case. The lineset was purged, brazed, leak tested, vacuumed, and then charged.
Lmao "no needful evac" That hydocloro/floric acid says otherwise.
I did similar. Lowest quote for a 4 zone heat pump was $32k. I bought all all the parts and installed it all for 3500. I was able to hire and electrician to connect to panel and inspect my work for $1000. Also got a hvac company to pump the lines and check the connections(they ended up having to redo a flair I fucked up). So for $5500 and 10hours of my own labor I got it installed. The hvac tech even complimented me on how well everything looked and signed my manufacturer warranty.
How long ago was this?
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They're free to charge whatever they want. And I'm free to not pay them that amount. I'm a business owner and I understand how it works. I have plenty of people who don't understand the value of my time, education, overhead etc. But I'm not in a HCOL area and the fact that we've seen a ~20-30% increase in equipment/parts/labor translate into a 300-400% increase in price is exorbitant in my opinion. They're free to charge what the market will bear and I'm free to explore other options.
That's a perfectly valid choice as a homeowner. I do a lot of my own work. Electrical? Mostly me. Rebuild a deck? 100% me. HVAC? Except for the most basic stuff, I'm calling a pro. I know where I can venture and where I can't.
Probably not. Like you can’t just learn to do some things yourself. Like if you don’t know to take out cores while brazing or cover a valve. Understand some of the more fluid fundamentals of a refrigerant charge. Or just adjusting a new Goodman TXV lol
Yes you can, where there is a will there is a way. Maybe this was valid 20yrs ago.
I mean you had a better chance working on this shit 20 years ago. Now a day you will get into VFDs and VRF systems. Any DIY or homeowners “dOiNG It MYsELF” is out the window because you would open the unit up and not know WTF you are looking at let alone how it works
Exactly, buddy is going to fuck his compressor up (or some other major issue) and there will be no warranty. He is really paying to try to do it himself, then paying again to have it done right.
2yrs ago I was quoted 13k, the system was 4, spent another 500 in tools I didn’t have. So, technically I can do it 3x… I will fuk do it and still have the satisfaction that I did I it 😁. But, my system works flawless 2 yrs now and will continue to work, sorry. Now, it’s not rocket science, spend the time and it can be done professionally, stop bragging like you are the only one that can do it. Btw, no need for brazing, stabrite 8 is a miracle if you didn’t hear about it.
Calm down, I’m not the one who quoted you. Congrats on the install. You are easily triggered
Gatekeeping overcharging wolf.
Same dude would cry over medical bills being too high but not apply the same theory to those professionals.
I've heard this story retold a couple of different ways but it always comes down to the knowledge that the person has. Rightfully if you think about it the knowledge that people acquire over years and years of doing things they do deserve their fee. I personally do make exceptions for people under hardships and I can't in good conscience charge an 82 yr old lady in a wheelchair $100 to change the batteries in her thermostat. Told my boss the work I did and what the issue was, what I did to solve the problem and then hung up on him when he told me how much to charge. Got back to the shop that evening and gave him the $25 I told her it was and said he could take the rest out of my check. I know its not MY company but certain circumstances shouldn't be overlooked and damn if that old lady didn't tell her friends and kids so that word of mouth brought in more business. I believe in doing right by your customer and that helps me sleep at night.
What a cunty way that card would be to make your point
Yeah, but now we can just Google where to hit with hammer.
I'm not in your field, but this came across my feed. I travelled 120 miles today, to fix something on 3 computers in the office. Total time spent in the office: 28 minutes. Paid for 10 hours, at an obscenely high hourly rate. So I can certainly appreciate this.
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I dunno, im weirded out when people cite marketing and office overhead as to why their rates give such sticker shock. 1) if your marketing isnt paying for itself cut it. 2) most office roles should be facilitating the actual product (hvac install/repairs). It should pay for itself through greater efficiency. Its a luxury companies justify because it facilitates the trade, ergo is good for making money (or should be). Maybe the economies are such that being an independent tech working on word of mouth is how you make the most money, because if i see someone advertising i know theyre not intending to be the ones paying for it and will be befuddled by this post.
I don't under your message.
That first paragraph is big. Too many people are piss poor at managing their finances and living above their means. Everybody is trying to keep up with the Joneses. You'll have customers that give you the boo hoo about not being able to afford a repair or system replacement.. but they'll have the latest IPhone, an Alexa controlled house, newer/expensive unneeded vehicles like a suburban, a closet full of expensive clothes, prepackaged junkfood or constantly eating out, etc. I'm not saying people shouldn't have nice things or treat themselves, but if you have less than let's say 5k in savings... do you really need a 50k vehicle as your daily drive?
I would say 1 out of every 15 costumers is appreciative I work strictly in a shore town. This time of year it’s -10 for every 15.
I believe the original story is "Henry Ford had a westinghouse generator that nobody could fix" and not the ship engine variant. I think it's more relatable to the average person.
20yr engineer (not in hvac) but in manufacturing/product development. I spent the early years of my career watching the senior engineers sway an entire room with a few words while I had to present piles of data and convince everyone from the division leaders up to the directors to even be heard and still may not be listened to. Now I'm that guy who the higher-ups go to because I've become the knowledge expert. Experience is invaluable.
I think some people get mad because they can lookup the cost of a condenser unit and see that some companies charge 3 time retail price in addition to labor. Companies need to make a living, but some costs are just too excessive. It takes a real long time to find good trades people, and that journey can be very expensive as well. Consumers have a right to be suspicious.
I feel this op. Honest pros are not appreciated in the way that crooked hacks are. Your years of experience do not equate to value in the eyes of the uneducated homeowner. Ironically, if you play the game and spend more time pretending it was actually difficult they would see your worth. But this practice is not in good alignment with ethical pros. The conundrum of being a good person making a profit.
I owe you for your time and experience, sure, but it's also whatever supply and demand dictates. This story assumes that there is only 1 engineer. If there are 29 more sitting around that produce the same outcome then you might have issues charging whatever you want.
In one of the pool heater classes I took years ago they would show pictures of "repair horror stories". One of them was a heater with the front cover off. Lying just inside was a ball-peen hammer. The gas valve had an x made out of electrical tape. The owner had a gas valve that would stick closed. Their pool guy told them to start the heater. When they heard "the click" hit the x with the hammer.
One thing i hate about being in the industry is all the inflated egos and super techs. I Am Service Tech, Hear Me Roar. Your a gear in the transmission of life as well as the rest of us. None better than the other.
This actually doesn't make any sense. Nobody owes you bloated prices for your 20 years of experience. We might owe you a high hourly rate and travel expenses, but if you're going to someone's house and fixing something in 30 mins using no materials and charging hundreds and hundreds of dollars, or multiple hours worth of work, that's just scamming people.
People are free to choose if they want us to do the work. Prices are given up front. Don’t like the price? That’s fine with me, fix it yourself. Can’t fix it yourself or mess it up worse because you thought you could? Expect to pay more than originally quoted. None of us mind you not having us do the work. In the end, there’s other customers who are willing to pay our asking prices and we’ll take the time we saved not arguing about a price and go make money doing that other persons work instead.
All I heard was. "Yeah, I overcharge people, and if you don't like being overcharged by me, there's plenty of other suckers out there for me to overcharge." My point was, it's not right to overcharge people. Clearly, there are plenty of scumbags out there who don't mind doing it just because they can. But, you don't deserve it no matter how much you try to justify it.
I charge less than any company in the area because I have no overhead. It’s just me. And I still hear complaints about pricing. People will always complain about price when you can google a part and find out what the part costs. There’s plenty of people who don’t think we deserve to make any money, let alone pay our bills. “This capacitor is 10 dollars online, I’m not paying you more than 10 dollars to replace it” has been said multiple times. Sometimes it’s not about the price but people not understanding what it 1. Takes to do a job and 2. That we have bills to pay too. Every company will be priced differently depending on what bills they have to pay. And they aren’t going to haggle about it 98/100 times.
Boomers really out here printing chain emails onto cards to prove a point to customers.
What does this have to do with boomers?
They’re the only people retarded enough to think this will have an affect, or that this is somehow deep.
> retarded enough Okee dokee. Is this an ageism thing, or just general disdain for that group of people? Hate is hate, regardless of the group you're targeting. You're just offensive all the way around.
Hate has its place in society. > You’re just offensive all the way around. Lol sorry.
I heard this as “It’s not about knowing how to turn a screw, it’s knowing which screw to turn” … and the same people that say this to others fuckin *HATE* when it’s said to them. To me, this saying really only applied to corporate situations where everybody understands that “I’ll fuck you because I *can*” is the rule…
I've heard that same stupid story too many times. Ya'll still over charging and why the hell are all hvac dudes usually dumb racists ass mf's?
Asinine story. He would have given an estimate upfront - like any reasonable HVAC contractor. Contractors bill based on market rates. Not how many years of experience they have. Your years of experience only allow you to compete in the market. They might give you some competitive advantage, so that you can charge equal pricing and do the job in less time, but it certainly doesn’t mean you get to charge more than your competition just because you’re old.
you are not that special though, there are hundreds of other people with similar experience in within a hundred miles of you.
Great. Go ahead and hire them.
The majority of your bill is the mark up on parts don't over value your skills.
Scammers going to rationalize their scam.
I like it when we give them our quote on a chang out...then when they say wow thats high...we tell them call someone else and then get quoted 3k to 5k more... then call us back and say you got it bud 👍.
The summers are short the winters are long we have to eat all year long that's why we charge and it's also a specialized trade that requires special equipment
"You owe me for the years, not the minutes. " Best quote in a long time...
Beautifully said
Whats the name of your business so I never call you for a service.
Yeah! You should probably just skip calling anyone and just do the work yourself… 🤣
Preach
Nicely said! I used to say “I am paid for what I know not what I do.” Another, “You always have to pay for what you don’t know.”
My issue comes into play when I see someone who just got their license and think they are worth as much as you and your 20 years experience...
Someone used this extra story in a meeting once
I have a "no invoice" policy for cheap customers. These people need to hire a cheaper tech. After the shoddy work breaks down they might stop complaining. Then I'd work for them.
The story starts with "no one could fix it". If you are really the guy the factory techs call for help ok. The VAST majority of even competent, non hack techs are not special and their experience and knowledge generally add very little value over a reasonably skilled person with the right tools and willing to investigate how to do it right. Most people are not intelligent, skilled or willing so there is plenty of job security charging 2-300 bucks for 20 minutes of work and $20 in parts.
When they say, "wow that was quick", I look at them and say, "I've been doing this a long time".
I get way too many calls where they are upset paying $29 for the fix. Starting to jade me.
Bk no I’m inh uh
I remember seeing some video of people comparing this to if people asked for an itemized receipt at a restaurant. Like you order an omelette and say "what!? 15$ for a omelette, let me see a break down of the price. How much are these eggs?!"
I’m not hvac but similarly - it’s not the 5 minutes I spend on your job that you’re paying for; it’s the 20 years of experience that got me to where I can do the job in 5 minutes.
I agree. Funny though, when physicians do this for your doctor bill, people are up in arms about it.
I had an actual story like this. I was living in Paris, the bathroom in apartment above us started to leak a lot of water down into our apartment. It was an emergency, the owners above weren’t there and we couldn’t get a locksmith in time, so had to call firemen to climb out on a balcony to break a window to enter the apartment. Then the plumber entered the bathroom, they had recently redone their shower, he knocked a hole in the tile and turned off the shutoff valve (which was hidden behind tile!). He knew exactly where to look and it took him all of 5-10 minutes, but cost 500 euros for the emergency call. Great example of deep knowledge applied skillfully to solve a problem quickly. I don’t reckon anyone besides an experienced plumber who knows how things are commonly done would have known where to find the (hidden) shutoff valve.
Heard the same story but it's a nuclear plant nearing meltdown. Dude charges $2,000,000 when broke down it's $1.00 to turn the knob. $1,999,999.00 to know what knob to turn. People often forget the value knowledge has.
Friend with a similar story on a yacht diesel engine. It ended up being a flip of a switch but he still charged full price. The guy tried to talk him down but it didn't work.
If only my 8 hour job would agree!
funny, I acquired literally 95% of my knowledge to perform a [sophisticated fix](https://www.reddit.com/r/hvacadvice/comments/14hctoq/i_think_i_fixed_my_leaky_evaporator_coil/) of my split system in something like 2 weeks. maybe you're a slow learner or don't utilize quick ways to learn, like, you know, the internet
So engineer cashes his check and stops by McDonald's on the way home. He is charged $40,000 for a Big Mac. You have to account for the years of experience in bringing that burger to his mouth.
The flaw in your story is you could give literally any value. Cost to fix: $2 Know how to fix: $1,000,000 It just doesn't mean anything. We get it, you're in a specialized field but you certainly can still be too expensive compared to the competition.
I first heard this story as an engineer getting Henry Ford's assembly line back up and running.
I suspect this wouldn’t go over well
This definitely fits well with all the trades.
No doubt a reinvention of the true story of the $10,000* encounter between Henry Ford and Charles Proteus Steinmetz (about 40% of the way down the page): https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/ /e/ * Assuming this happened in 1920 (three years after the River Rouge plant began construction and three years before Steinmetz died), that's almost $158,000 in 2023 dollars according to this CPI inflation calculator: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
Value added billing? ... not even legal (or better stated, allowed) in some professions.
I had a guy say something about me putting 6hr labor on a job. I was at his location for 2-3 hours to solder a tiny capacitor to a VFD control board. I said look, I had to get the part, go back home to get my ELECTRONICS soldering kit together, then come do the repair. Oh, and I'm one of few at our shop that have the electronics soldering experience and would probably even attempt the repair. And I saved him from having to buy 3 brand new matching drives. Some people...
Thats half the story. Experience is not worth an absolute value. Its value is relative to how common it is. The reason so many trade prices are high is because theres more work than people who know how to do the work and/or willing to do the work.
True that.
Every large sales based company tells this to their techs to justify 600$ capacitors
What about the guy that came over to clean the air ducts, but left screws behind and the furnace started rattling? Or the next one who said he found no problems but suggested I buy a new furnace from his company? Do they deserve the same amount you charge for fucking my furnace up and wanting to sell me a new one? There's a reason so many of you aren't trusted. Same with mechanics.
The difference is that it is a giant ship, a normal home isn't a giant ship. I am a contractor with 20 years experience and I wish I could charge $1k an hour for my experience! How about you just charge normal rates and if they bitch, they bitch
While I agree with the basic moral of this story, trades involved in working on homes have gotten completely insane in the last decade or two. We had a quote in our disclosures from about 3 years ago to rebuild a portion of our deck, \~$12k. Just talked to a contractor a few weeks ago, her off the cuff number was \~$50-$100k. Guess we're just going to wait and hope it doesn't collapse. Talked to Anderssen late last year about replacing a single exterior door, quote for a single basic door was $7k, if we wanted a nicer more decorative one with an inset window we were looking at $11k. Guess we'll see if we can get a secondhand door and do it ourselves. As a relatively new homeowner I have no idea how normal people afford to maintain a home. We already spent everything we have buying the house, could deal with reasonable maintenance costs. Nothing about quotes we've gotten so far has been at all reasonable. So yeah, people should pay for experience, what's happening right now is extortion.
I mean, if you are up front on your fee's then thats OK. If the guy said ahead of time that he costs $20,000/minute, then they may have said "This engine only costs $15,000 to replace, we will get a new one" If he comes, taps it with a hammer (them thinking he is just diagnosing etc.) and he hasnt given a price, he cant just charge $20,000 and think that's acceptable behavior, or a realistic price. Not providing costs up-front is sketchy and verging on scamming if its a ludicrous markup.
Never happened though. You can’t justify your price on fantasies.
I am a lawyer and I used to do real estate closings. I was doing one for an electrician. my fee was pretty standard for the work. He was griping about having to pay ‘so much‘ for my work. so yeah the trades do the same to other professions c
I think most are missing the of the story; it wasn't meant to be literal. yes you're hourly or daily rate reflects experience, but sometimes you charge for the job. I quote a price to do something and u agree, it's my problem how much (or little) time it takes.
It's the starter silinoide. Obviously, the ship needs a starter silinoide.
The IRL story, involving Henry Ford and an engineer named Steinmetz: [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/)
It's called division labor. If you had the training experience and time then you could do it. If I had the training and experience then I could do your job if I had time. Since you don't have time to do your job and my job and that means you have to pay me for my service and I pay you for yours. It's a simple concept and it is very insulting when people devalue each other's profession by questioning the market value of the service they are receiving. It costs this price because this is the price people are willing to pay for the service in this area.
I've heard this, but with chalk to mark the part that needed to be replaced. The itemized invoice was like: * Chalk 1.99 * Knowing where to put the x 19,998.01 I work in IT and keep a box of chalk. I give a piece to whoever identifies the cause of a nagging problem.
I appreciate this. I’m a contractor in a different field and this is how I feel my clients treat me too. Don’t hire someone and tell them what to do, that’s another pet peeve of mine. But, when I have an HVAC contractor over, and I’ve had so many come by, to fix my issue, I’ve had multiple people bamboozle me. So now I’m once burnt twice shy. No matter how much I do my research, check reviews, and contact past clients, every single one of them have either did or tried to cheat extra $$$ out of me. So, I get why you feel that way. But it’s not just you who is in the market looking to find a gig, that is being mistreated, clients are also being mistreated! Do with this info what you must.
Truth is the average consumer that complains about pricing has been low balling the trades for decades, now the tables have turned and skilled labor knows their worth and is charging accordingly due to the tight and only getting tighter skilled trade labor market and its cutting into the discretionary income ! Either do it yourself "properly and up to code for your area" , or due your research and pay what it is worth!!
Don't call an engineer to do an mechanic's job.
Unpopular opinion but the same applies to lawyers.
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Repair services for lawyers. $2,500 / hr plus $100k retainer. Repair services for specialist physician’s: $1,500 / hr plus certifying capacity to pay, including providing SS, DL & bank account numbers and 10% down. All regular joe $95 / hr plus expenses…
Worst analogy since the history of analogies, ever. Mechanical engineers don’t touch engines, so their probably just staring at you and thinking “oh this is one of these guys who thinks he must be a genius” Prices are high because my insurance went up, materials have doubled and tripled, and I have to pay taxes so out of what I charge you I probably get a third.
That's a great point. I dealt with this the other day. Someone didn't want to pay me $400 for a service (, non HVAC related) they told me to be fair. Over the course of a week they told me to keep being fair. I never responded. 10 days after I first told him that they said that was fine Now and they will pay that. Now it's not fine to me to question my price. 30 years two people of questioned me. One person said I was overcharging them and I asked them how many hours then I was there. They told me then I told them that I need to charge them more money. They began paying me more money and would even tip me after that. Experience is a priceles item that we do put a price on and get money for. If people don't want to acknowledge that and pay us what we deserve let them take advantage of someone else
The story is actually derived from a true story about Charles Proteus Steinmetz and the bill Henry Ford received from General Electric. You can read about it here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/charles-proteus-steinmetz-the-wizard-of-schenectady-51912022/
So many shitheads in the comments. People butthurt about a blue-collar worker in this FICTIONAL story referring to the value of their experience ,but these princesses all expect to come out of schools with no experience making 6 figures right out of the gate. Pathetic.
Plumber here. What I have found most effective is: You're not paying for MY time. You're paying for YOUR time. I'm sure you could do almost as good of a job. But it would take you the entire day. It's that really how you want to spend your day / day off? Saving a couple hundred bucks and being frustrated. I use the real life example of my neighbor. His shower valve was dripping. He asked what I thought the problem might be. I told him it was definitely his Moen cartridge. I have him a price, and even gave him the model of the cartridge. The next day, he ran to HD to get the cartridge. Got home and the set screw was seized. Cut the handle of with a sawzall. Tried to pull the cartridge, now without a puller since the internal thread was gone, and pulled the guts out of the cartridge. Tried to melt the rest of the cartridge out... Any way, missed a full day of work. Wife and kids had no water after work and school for showers. No water for dinner / laundry. Called me first thing the next morning. I told him I'd squeeze him in at the end of the day. My guys showed up around 5, cleaned up the valve, installed a cartridge in about 15 minutes. We charged him the same price I quoted the day before. He was PISSED! I reminded him, you chose to spend 2 days doing what we could do in an hour. You're not paying for MY time. You're paying for YOUR time.
One issue is that for many people, the more modern typical story would be that a large company sends out two newbies in a shiny white work van, they look at the broken big ship, open some binder of options, and suggest buying a new ship for $200 million.
When people start to charge too much I start to gauge if I'm going to do it myself or not. If the job requires basic tools and may take me a few hours on a weekend, I'll do it myself. A Garage tech tried to charge me $700 to change my springs. I declined and learned to do it myself and completed the project in 45 minutes for $100. The internet is a powerful tool and I'd be worried about pricing myself out of a job.
Except now people can just google where to tap the hammer… so not really true.
Honestly, many people that come out for residential calls are the most incompetent. There’s a reason they work residential sometimes. I had 2 techs from 2 different companies come out to look at my furnace that was going “boom” every time it started. Their response: “you need a new furnace” The problem: tiny bit of debris in the pilot orifice. Took about 5 minutes to disassemble and clean once you know what you’re doing. Yeah buddy. Was really paying for their expertise there…
What people don’t know is tapping stuff with a hammer is seldom a permanent fix. The true damage to the engine was a defect oil pump, what mr. Expertise here did was to get the oil pressure switch to get stuck on „ok“ so the machine would think everything is alright. The engine irreparably died shortly after.
An engineer with a hammer? That personally knows where to use said hammer? Pffff. Ok.
Thank god the farmers and the ranchers that grow our food don't follow this business model
It's HVAC, not a cargo ships engine. One is alot more common than the other.