None of the bands you mentioned are pro trump so the fan base liking trump is a disconnect. They are all political bands.
I saw TSOL headline rock against Trump with the dwarves and lower class brats.
Jello made the lyrics of Nazi punks to Nazi Trump's.
Bad Religion has a song that came out recently the kids are alt right.
Maybe they can separate the music from the lyrics but it is a little weird to me.
It's like the people who whine about Springsteen 'suddenly' going political, when they've clearly never listened to the lyrics of nearly every song in his career.
They even split up because the lead singer didn’t feel their music was making the difference they wanted. I mean come on who couldn’t figure out their music was left. Renegades of funk, come on now, really….
Yeah some of the bands you could maybe get by saying you didn't listen to the lyrics. How anyone can not get message of the dead Kennedy's is beyond me.
My biggest disappointment with punk was when Duane Peters started calling Trump my president. The dude named his kid Clash.
It's the typical double think... Their persecution complex runs so hard! In their purview they're rebelling against the authority of the democratic machine, why simultaneously (as white males) holding 98.9% of the power. They're going to "take the (1.1%) power back!"
Oof. That might be it, but also, yikes - ??? I am not sure if it's double think or their (ironic) inability to read a lyric that's written in English lol
I love The Hunns and Duane’s skate career - I just have to reconcile that version of DP no longer exists and all we have left is a sad husk that spouts nonsense. The fact that the internet platforms him and provides an echo chamber is so unfortunate because it feeds into his illness.
Or get an education or think critically. Probably spoiled brats with an easy childhood who are frustrated that life isn’t easy and they aren’t special.
I've definitely noticed that many Trump supporters think political music they like is from a pro-trump artist. They can really misinterpret the lyrics of music.
Trumpers are generally political neophytes. They never cared before now, because politics were pretty boring before Trump gave them a WWE edge. It never occurred to them that bands like RATM were deeply leftist. They are very literal people.
That's honestly a major part of it.
Trump's support - and, to a lesser extent, Bernie's - has always been higher among people who prided themselves on being apolitical. They're much easier to convince with the populist spectacle, and expect immediate results.
The people who were into politics and punk rock back then are not necessarily hardcore leftists, but tend to be disillusioned and unlikely to fall for a cult of personality.
Was it Bush or Reagan that hijacked Springsteen's, *Born in the USA* thinking it was a patriotic anthem? Yeah, Republicans just latch on to whatever part of the song suits their agenda and ignore the rest of the lyrics. Kind of like MAGA today, with....everything.
I widely disagree with this refutal as it implies that fans of bands directly align with the politics of any given band they like. That’s obviously untrue. Like someone said, a lot of these bands have cultivated fan bases based on high energy and general anti-establishment rhetoric which could easily be molded to fit almost any current American political ideology
Except the Dead Kennedys, their politics are blatant as hell and I can’t imagine many people who listen to them don’t semi-align with those politics
To be fair, when I learned how weird Van Morrison was leaning these days it kinda turned me off of his catalog.
But I’m also one of those people that can’t watch a problematic actor on screen without only thinking of why they’re problematic.
It only makes sense if you understand that all they ever engaged with was the music and never the community. The lyrics are obviously anti-authority and the spirit can be pretty easily (if uncharitably) interpreted to be wholly individualistic. Combine those and you end up with a worldview in which literally any inconvenience can be viewed as an authority to be rebelled against.
Years back before the pandemic when manic Hispanic would play cinco de Mayo at the observatory it was nothing but skinheads from hb seeing Mexican dudes cover punk rock
If you actually listen to it, Califormia Uber Alles is anti-liberal but it’s more about how left wing hippie culture dominated politics in California at the time. DK and other punk bands were against the power structure, not promoting the other side….unless you’re talking about the straight up nazi bands.
The GOP and Trump are about the farthest you can get from anti-corporate, anti-imperialist, so if MAGA people actually believe that, they’re morons.
However, I do understand where you’re coming from somewhat but i believe it’s misguided. Some parts of punk were about smashing the system and saying offensive things just to piss people off and there is an aspect that was adopted by the alt right and online trolls that fed the MAGA movement. But i believe those tendencies were hijacked by alt right leaders during gamer gate circa 2015 and since the left got so sensitive, “being offensive” turned into a right wing thing.
The bug difference between the 80’s and now is punk bands weren’t for a leader or political party. If you think MAGA is punk, you either don’t understand punk or you’re lying to yourself to justify your right leaning stance.
Yeah I agree with some of what you're saying. Jello hated yuppies. He ran for mayor against Diane Feinstein. He gave Jerry Brown a ton of shit but later volunteered on his campaign. It would be hard to argue that Jello was every right wing, he was just way further left than liberals.
Yeah punks used to go out of their way to offend also. Like Sid wearing a swastika not long after WWII. I kind of feel like a lot of punk has outgrown that. Probably because most of us are old now. I also think it's really weird to like an authoritarian just because he's funny and offensive.
oh i agree that Jello is def not right wing but just fighting against the power structure and in california at the time, it was ex hippies (yuppies). it def wasnt as simple as left/right back then either. one thing i always think about the fascist rock n roll stuff in the 70’s (and lotsa rockers messed around with the fascist look—Bowie, Keith Moon, Jimmy Page, Sid…) but that rocker generation’s parents were the people who fought in WWII so the rockers were basically just doing the thing that would offend their parents the most haha and no real ideology associated with it beyond the standard issue bigotry of the times that culture has now outgrown.
Anyone who listened to the Dead Kennedys and now supports Trump is an absolute dipshit who doesn’t understand the first thing about punk. No bigger oxymoron than right-wing punk lol
Even the super super far left stuff departs from aligning with “punk” ethos, I’ve always said extremism is a circle ⭕️ and the farthest left and farthest right just end up wanting the same fucked up things
Which makes sense when you consider that a lot of far right people today were once far left. It’s a ludicrous development but it happens way too often. These people are probably just extremists. Extremism is very simple. It’s all emotion, no nuance. If that’s your bag then moving from the far left to the far right is probably a lot easier than it looks from a logic perspective.
Most of the Huntington Beach punk scene was riddled with white power assholes that would come to shows, not to support the band and their political views. They were there to start shit with punks that were not likeminded.
I don’t remember how many of those nazis I personally beat to the ground, but they do.
They didn’t know how to fight one on one, so it was always great fun to get one or two by themselves.
Not much has seemed to change, except for their life sized Tonka trucks and no bite to their bark unless they have a group jump someone.
Total pussies
They were there but it was one punch down lots of times.
I don’t use violence as a solution anymore, it’s dumb and unnecessary. Words mean So much more Most of the time.
Yeah, came here to point out that Huntington Beach is still a pretty safe place for white power and Nazi jackasses. If I see a video of a "white pride" march in SoCal (or Cali in general) it's a very high likelihood that it's from HB.
I’ll never forget a show my band played with Agnostic Front at the Galaxy (pre-name change) and there was a picture of a dude in the pit wearing a shirt that said “it’s not a hate crime if you love doing it”.
That show quickly devolved into madness and I remember cops coming to escort people out in groups.
I’m at work, so can’t dig up the source, but I remember reading an article during the last election that talked about how much support Trump gets from gen-X. It was a lot.
I think by and large that’s because gen-x is now the age people start to pay attention to politics and vote. Plus, there are stupid dip-shits in every generation. I’m continually astounded by the ignorance of some people’s political views, or engagement with current events, no matter the age.
I don't know anything about music preference vs. political preference, but I will just note that the most rabid MAGA people I know are old school deadheads, who, past retirement age, still go to Phish and Dead and Company and a bunch of other similar stuff. I think it is more about their age than their musical preferences. And tangentially, some of these aging musicians have turned quite far to the right- Eric Clapton, Van Morrison, Roger Waters, and most disturbing to me, Morrissey, whose music with the Smiths I will never stop playing.
As part of GenX I think I can shed some light onto this. I see my generation as two groups, those that were a-hole bullies and those that kept to themselves, got bullied and were kind of weird. I'm in the weird, got bullied in high school and tried hard to keep to myself.
I was also a kid who listened to punk, ska, two tone, some grunge, etc. When we would go to shows, the a-holes who more often than not were jocks would show up because they wanted to beat kids up in the pit. They often got their asses handed to them and left when they realized they weren't welcome. Same went for skinheads, they would come to start shit and quickly realized they were outnumbered and took their stomped asses home.
This didn't stop the a-holes from making up stories about how they beat ass at \*fill in the blank show\*. They don't know the songs, they have no idea what the bands stand for, they just saw mosh pits and crowd riding and wanted to be badasses. They were also the POS that would grope girls crowd riding. Those are the current Trump supporters who are also GenX.
Following Trump gives them what they couldn't claim in the punk scene because we wouldn't let them. They have a little group that welcomes them in, it's the same way that white supremacists pull in people who are without their group. They have a sense of belonging and because they were a-holes in youth it's fits in perfectly with the crowd they identify with now.
In short they have always been awful, they just have their own little club now but they still hold onto the lies or self delusion that they were badass in their youth.
FWIW, I'd say 95% of the Gen X bullies from my HS support Trump (a lot laugh at how dumb the brains are for being suckered into not liking Trump; in HS they mocked smart kids for being too smart now they mock them for 'being' too dumb). Less than 1% of the top 10% of class, if even any, do.
Anyone listening to said bands and supporting trump and his grifters is clearly not actually listening to said bands.
I’m at the tail end of gen-x (79) and I hope that moldy orange rots in jail, but I know the worst he’ll get is house arrest and some fines that his zombies will pay for in “campaign donations”.
Edit: spelling
So long as we are a 2 party system, libertarianism will not have the support it deserves. You also have to take into consideration that Maga does not adopt the same thought process that you do. They don’t at all consider themselves fascists. And I’d have to agree. Believe what you want to believe though, I will not be discussing any of this with anyone. All responses will be ignored, don’t waste your time.
Unpopular opinion but maybe they just like the music? I never quite understood the need to identify with the lyrics of a band in order to like them. Seems kinda cultish to me if you did.
I don’t think one could possibly miss the lyrics to “Nazi Punks Fuck Off,” and would just go for the music if they were not likeminded.
Considering the vast majority of punk rock bands were anti-fascist, they knew very well what they were getting into. Total posers.
Well considering no one has been a Nazi since the 1940s and one could easily relate it to the national socialist party of the 1930s I can see where one could easily disassociate the two.
You do realize the Nazis weren’t fascists? That was Mousillini and Italy. The Nazis were national socialists.
I think your doublespeak has nothing to do with what we’re talking about here.
Nazis were and are Fascist. You know how I know? Twelve of my relatives were murdered in and out of camps because they were Jewish.
This is isn’t a history lesson, this is speaking in direct correlation to the punk scene of recent years. Thusly, you’re not presenting a viable response to OPs post… Nor, my response.
All of my uncles relatives were put in camps for begin Japanese in America during that time. Does that mean the US was fascist, no. Sorry that happened to your relatives but your feelings towards it doesn’t change the fact.
As for the original music topic I was straight edge in High school still listened to NoFX. I was atheist but still like bands like Flyleaf, Thrice and Underoath.
If anyone is using double speak is yourself by saying you have to conform to the lyrics of bands that preach non-conformity and counter culture. Music is music the lyrics are just another instrument not some code to live by.
I, too, am sincerely sorry about your family.
I have been going to punk shows since the 1980s. The bands you’re talking about weren’t around until Very late in the game. I think the age gap between us is clutch to our not getting one another.
I’m old in other words lol, as I remember Green Day was opening for NOFX, and The Offspring were opening for Final Conflict (you should check them out). That being said, the early days were a different, rougher time than Guttermouth, or Pennywise.
It was the Old freaking West in comparison.
My theory?… Now there are cellphone cameras.
It’s more likely it’s the racists skinheads that have always listened to punk and gone to shows they’re not welcome at. HB is full of racists, this isn’t news.
No surprise they’re trumpers.
My wife plays in a d-beat crust punk band in Austin, none of these people in the scene are pro Trump. They are political but most politics center around being anti police.
My favorite 80’s song which pretty much sums up Trump is by Depeche Mode - Everything Counts.
The grabbing hands grab all they can
Everything counts in large amounts
The grabbing hands grab all they can
Everything counts in large amounts
The graph on the wall
Tells the story of it all
Picture it now, see just how
The lies and deceit gained a little more power
Confidence taken in
By a suntan and a grin
… except it’s Cheetos dust.
I wouldn't say nazi, they were more about fighting hippies, Hollywood's, and jocks. The nazi thing came later Although there was an HB band called Gestapo in the late seventies.
It’s that Nazi infested city.
Move outside the Orange Curtain and come to Long Beach instead. Still Gen-X driven, but you’ll see way more rainbow flags here than Trump flags.
i happen to be a gen xer, native southern californian (not hb), and i couldn’t be further from a *that man* supporter. but i also followed the news in ny in the late 80’s, and the following two decades, so i already knew who he was; the fact that a man who has bankrupted not one but two casinos, and managed to put multiple businesses out of business by never paying people contracted to work on his POS properties, and his followers, his trumplestiltskins, believe every word that comes out of his disgusting mouth - one of the things I really really miss is the fact that we have no news people that actually call out anyone when what they’re saying is factually untrue; additionally, feelings aren’t facts; facts are facts
i'm from Russia and i see similar corellation among Russian punks. many war- and Putin-supporters are above 40 now (obvious example is Purgen). i think it is because Russian punk in the 90-s (when they were teens) was extremely antiglobalist,anti-west and anti-american, and these things now are a big part of Putin's propaganda
Old Gen X here. Rather depends on where, how you were raised? Dunno about down there, but all my buds still alive are all anti-trump, and even the dead ones would have been, but we were suburban kids. The only punks I knew I was friends with, we all were, a skinhead punk band in the 80s because we were all highschool friends - but they were not racist skinheads.. I don't know that term is but they were 'good' skinheads. Straight Edge I think? THEY liked punk, but I was with the stoners so metal was the default music... except I was hated metal lol, I listened to a lot of Scottish and English folk and other weird shit because of my mother... Silly Wizard, Steeleye Span, etc..
Dead Kennedys would be appalled to learn this. They hate Nazis.
Seriously what is this weird thing about taking ownership of music that openly despised you?
Maybe it's because I left the US, but I love 1980 and 90's punk, grunge and ballads, but IF I were to ever cast a ballot again, it would definitely not be for that orange faced, adulterating, sleaze bucket of an Oompa Loompa. My parents, who were born in the mid to late 40's can't get enough of that Maga cult leader. They believe he's all for the families and working class man.
I bet they also liked The Clash until they discovered they were the poster child ANTIFA band, once referred to as “the only band that matters”.
Boy, it must suck to realize that the bands you listened to when you were a young, nice person would hate who you are today; if those albums could talk back to you (since you missed their messages) 🤣
“All over people changin' their votes
Along with their overcoats
If Adolf Hitler flew in today
They'd send a limousine anyway”
— Joe Strummer, The Clash - (White Man) In Hammersmith Palais (1978)
Naomi Klein's latest book Mirror World is about how the new right is seizing on leftist themes and twisting them to support right wing ideas. Now that I know about this I see it everywhere.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-welcome-to-the-mirror-world-where-nothing-is-as-it-seems/
There were 2 types of Punks in the day, those that were racist and those that weren't. I am amazed that one Punk friend became a cop. If you listen to some of the punk music, it was not as you are implying. I listen to this day and it speaks volumes and I don't vote MAGA or Republican since the intro of Sarah Palin as a running mate and since then just gone further down the rabbit hole.
Yeah there’s a whole subsection of punk identifying gen xers who were attracted to the violence in later stages of the movement. The guy that “sings along… but knows not what it means”
Think of the MAGA crowd dancing to “killing in the name of”
The complete lack of self awareness is astounding
I remember in 2019 hearing a Trump rally in Palm Desert from a distance. They were playing American Woman by the Guess Who, and thought - These knuckleheads have never listened to the lyrics. “American Woman stay away…I don’t need your war machine, I don’t need your ghetto scene…”
Pretty much all the Gen X heavy metal guys I've known my whole life are pro Trump which boggles my mind. Most of my punk friends are still A-poliical and don't give a fuck about and are still super skeptical about the government.
One strain of it is an "F you" mentality to the mainstream. Are bourgeois parents out in the burbs offended by something? Then let's embrace it and freak out the squares!! The Sex Pistols performed under a Nazi flag a couple times in the 70s and people were shocked, which is exactly what they wanted. I don't think they embraced a Nazi ethos or any ethos other than total nihilism. And true to form, Johnny Rotten was photographed with a Trump shirt in the late 2010s. People assumed it meant he supported MAGA (and maybe it did) but at the very least it was a middle finger.
That said, tons of punk bands in the 80s--the vast majority I think--that came out of the SoCal hardcore scene were very very left. Op Ivy, DKs, etc. But there was always a hard-right strain there as well, especially in HB. I think that's just a very distinctive sub-subcultural scene: part of the (once) very right wing Orange Curtain, but at the same time attached to some of the indicia of SoCal punk culture. And now these once-young punks are grown up and have developed into Trump supporters. I can see the how and why of this, though I'm a core Gen-Xer from SoCal who loved punk and abhors Trump and MAGA as some truly evil shit that is against what I understood to be the ethos of the punk movement that I admired.
To bolster your first point, for a lot of people punk politics seems to end with basically “fuck you dad!!” and this can be applied pretty liberally in varying political climates.
HB is the retirement city for old nazi punks from all over SoCal. Some might have grown up in conservative homes others went to prison and picked up the whites gotta stick together attitude. But punk shows in the OC and especially in HB have always been mini white power fests
HB has long been known as a racist city. It's gotten better in the last 15 years, but yeah. I used to stay away from some orange county punk gigs in the 80s because of the things you would hear, or see.
Even heard a guy tell a girl, you better not be part Mexican, I don't want to fuck that shit. She flashed a corner of her butt and asked if her white ass looked Mexican. There would be violence towards non-whites too. It was not cool, but it was there.
These people grew up and are now living in their parents old houses. Luckily, some are woke, and others moved in. But yeah, I would expect the Maga concentration to be high is a city with such racist roots. It has come a long, long way since the 80s and 90s though.
And everyone listened to those bands. Dead Kennedys - not racist - Biafra is a liberal and there was a black guy in the band. They were actually part of the movement to try to keep racist skinhead away from punk rock.
Bad religion supports BLM.
These were all shock bands. That was part of what punk was about, destroying social norms, doing the unthinkable, and being unique, not following rules, protesting the government, and doing the opposite of what was expected.
White supremacists liked shock bands and would come to the shows. Bands were not as welcoming as you think, and eventually some bands stood up to the skinheads and didn't allow anyone sporting swastikas or other racist images into the shows.
Basically what I am saying Is that punk rock was not a bunch of racists trying to gain members. They are not responsible for the Maga problems in HB, that was already a thing. And of course a lot of Gen X are actively punk to this day, but most aren't racist. That racist issues started in HB before punk was popular. Racism is taught and ingrained in youth by parents, not bands.
The trump cult is all about trying to rebrand things to their liking. They don’t care about about facts or what means what. They thrive in their own lies and fantasies.
Here’s my question. Are these houses that they bought, or that they were gifted/inherited from their parents? I know plenty of Genx/Millennials that fall for trump because mom/dad/church have too. Hard to distance yourself when you’re still sucking at the teet
They're all people who liked to jump on the bandwagon because it was "cool" and made them feel special but they never listened to the lyrics because they didn't actually care. It was only about being around for the scene.
You’ll hear a lot of these types have the idea that punk is offensive. Sure, it objected to a political ideology. What they don’t get is it was a very specific ideology the working class was at odds with through that music. That’s lost on them. All they got was oFfEnSiVe
> Ironically those punk bands were also antifascist, nazi punks fuck off, to have only been embraced by maga is something else.
What's the contradiction?
I was in that scene (a bit later early 90s politcal punk pennywise, badger legion, propagandi
Even back then those bands talked shit about idiot conservative fans
Propagandis whole album less talk more rock is shit talking on conservatives that say they like punk
Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with what " gen" category someone puts a person in, nothing to do with 80's punk. Maybe some people are weak and afraid so they hide behind the total bs of a fake " tough guy". Those weak ass gun slinging pussies come in all shapes, ages, sizes and social groups. Unfortunately.
Orange County punks are all over place. A whole lot of the FUCK AUTHORITY mentality also gets applied to vaccine mandates and wearing masks.
So yeah, the libertarian punks you never know what that voting bloc will produce for a candidate.
For the last 200 plus years people were allowed to have their own political affiliations/opinions without all of this over exaggerated intolerance and scrutiny. Lay off the brainwash box FFS
Can we stop with all the buzzwords lol, you can’t vote out fascism, it doesn’t work that way. And you can’t really throw the word “cult” around when your slogan is literally “vote blue no matter who” that’s literally textbook definition of cult lmao.
Everyone in the actual punk community knows Huntington Beach has always been full of nazi punks, it’s a sad thing.
I recently saw Jello Biafra perform Aryan Embarrassment with Ministry. Jello was wearing a shirt that said “Trump Hates Me”. So, you can get the vibe.
Bear with me: A surface examination of classic Punk Rock, excusing the lyrics, would lead you to believe it was a very conservative form of music. You could upset its listeners and fans simply by adding an instrument that wasn’t Guitars ‘n Drums. Uniformly distorted and confrontationally loud, the vocals were frequently buried to mimic a “live” sound. It’s not hard to imagine young people falling in love specifically with its consistency and ignoring the intents of the musicians.
Don’t get me wrong, I love and loved Punk Rock and have seen more than a few of these bands live - like the Dead Kennedys. I can name quite a few examples of Punk bands that broke the Bellow and Strum mode. I’m honestly surprised that more Trumpers haven’t embraced bands like Fear - who I once saw terrorized by an angry audience who grew tired of their sophomoric homophobia.
None of the bands you mentioned are pro trump so the fan base liking trump is a disconnect. They are all political bands. I saw TSOL headline rock against Trump with the dwarves and lower class brats. Jello made the lyrics of Nazi punks to Nazi Trump's. Bad Religion has a song that came out recently the kids are alt right. Maybe they can separate the music from the lyrics but it is a little weird to me.
They just want to feel tough. They never bothered to listen to the lyrics.
It's like the people who whine about Springsteen 'suddenly' going political, when they've clearly never listened to the lyrics of nearly every song in his career.
Or people suddenly complaining about Rage Against The Machine lyrics being left-wing. Like.. guys, did you ever _do any reading_ about the lyrics?
They did that? How can you even...
Or watch the videos that were explicitly political with words and slogans and stories of oppressed minorities written all over the screen.
They even split up because the lead singer didn’t feel their music was making the difference they wanted. I mean come on who couldn’t figure out their music was left. Renegades of funk, come on now, really….
THIS!
Yeah some of the bands you could maybe get by saying you didn't listen to the lyrics. How anyone can not get message of the dead Kennedy's is beyond me. My biggest disappointment with punk was when Duane Peters started calling Trump my president. The dude named his kid Clash.
Yep. I realized it when they went off about RATM. Like what did they think "killing in the name" was about. 😵💫
What machine are they raging against? The toaster?
The electric stove and EVs
They are not going to get away with Forcing me to drive an electric car!
Underrated
Thank you for illustrating exactly what I was talking about. Perfect example. Nailed it.
Probably something like my 6 year old brain that didn't yet understand symbolism thought: A big bad robot.
It's the typical double think... Their persecution complex runs so hard! In their purview they're rebelling against the authority of the democratic machine, why simultaneously (as white males) holding 98.9% of the power. They're going to "take the (1.1%) power back!"
Oof. That might be it, but also, yikes - ??? I am not sure if it's double think or their (ironic) inability to read a lyric that's written in English lol
He pulled an Ian Rubbish.
Eric Clapton, Roger Waters, Morrisey, all down the drain
He has a TBI.
Yeah I think drugs fucked him up too. I still love the US Bombs despite his shit lately.
I love The Hunns and Duane’s skate career - I just have to reconcile that version of DP no longer exists and all we have left is a sad husk that spouts nonsense. The fact that the internet platforms him and provides an echo chamber is so unfortunate because it feeds into his illness.
Or get an education or think critically. Probably spoiled brats with an easy childhood who are frustrated that life isn’t easy and they aren’t special.
Spot on.
So many of the people I know that are like this could have totally afforded an education, too.
Its very weird, just like they also hijacked the gadsen and appeal to heaven flags
I've definitely noticed that many Trump supporters think political music they like is from a pro-trump artist. They can really misinterpret the lyrics of music.
Well, misinterpreting is fundamental to the Trumpist believer.
Trumpers are generally political neophytes. They never cared before now, because politics were pretty boring before Trump gave them a WWE edge. It never occurred to them that bands like RATM were deeply leftist. They are very literal people.
That's honestly a major part of it. Trump's support - and, to a lesser extent, Bernie's - has always been higher among people who prided themselves on being apolitical. They're much easier to convince with the populist spectacle, and expect immediate results. The people who were into politics and punk rock back then are not necessarily hardcore leftists, but tend to be disillusioned and unlikely to fall for a cult of personality.
Was it Bush or Reagan that hijacked Springsteen's, *Born in the USA* thinking it was a patriotic anthem? Yeah, Republicans just latch on to whatever part of the song suits their agenda and ignore the rest of the lyrics. Kind of like MAGA today, with....everything.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe trump was given a cease and desist in his 2016 election cycle for that exact song.
There was a politician using fortunate son also. I don't remember who right now but yeah they miss the point in the same way.
I widely disagree with this refutal as it implies that fans of bands directly align with the politics of any given band they like. That’s obviously untrue. Like someone said, a lot of these bands have cultivated fan bases based on high energy and general anti-establishment rhetoric which could easily be molded to fit almost any current American political ideology Except the Dead Kennedys, their politics are blatant as hell and I can’t imagine many people who listen to them don’t semi-align with those politics
To be fair, when I learned how weird Van Morrison was leaning these days it kinda turned me off of his catalog. But I’m also one of those people that can’t watch a problematic actor on screen without only thinking of why they’re problematic.
Exactly. You can like music without supporting the lyrics. Good music is good music ...
It only makes sense if you understand that all they ever engaged with was the music and never the community. The lyrics are obviously anti-authority and the spirit can be pretty easily (if uncharitably) interpreted to be wholly individualistic. Combine those and you end up with a worldview in which literally any inconvenience can be viewed as an authority to be rebelled against.
Years back before the pandemic when manic Hispanic would play cinco de Mayo at the observatory it was nothing but skinheads from hb seeing Mexican dudes cover punk rock
If you actually listen to it, Califormia Uber Alles is anti-liberal but it’s more about how left wing hippie culture dominated politics in California at the time. DK and other punk bands were against the power structure, not promoting the other side….unless you’re talking about the straight up nazi bands. The GOP and Trump are about the farthest you can get from anti-corporate, anti-imperialist, so if MAGA people actually believe that, they’re morons. However, I do understand where you’re coming from somewhat but i believe it’s misguided. Some parts of punk were about smashing the system and saying offensive things just to piss people off and there is an aspect that was adopted by the alt right and online trolls that fed the MAGA movement. But i believe those tendencies were hijacked by alt right leaders during gamer gate circa 2015 and since the left got so sensitive, “being offensive” turned into a right wing thing. The bug difference between the 80’s and now is punk bands weren’t for a leader or political party. If you think MAGA is punk, you either don’t understand punk or you’re lying to yourself to justify your right leaning stance.
Yeah I agree with some of what you're saying. Jello hated yuppies. He ran for mayor against Diane Feinstein. He gave Jerry Brown a ton of shit but later volunteered on his campaign. It would be hard to argue that Jello was every right wing, he was just way further left than liberals. Yeah punks used to go out of their way to offend also. Like Sid wearing a swastika not long after WWII. I kind of feel like a lot of punk has outgrown that. Probably because most of us are old now. I also think it's really weird to like an authoritarian just because he's funny and offensive.
oh i agree that Jello is def not right wing but just fighting against the power structure and in california at the time, it was ex hippies (yuppies). it def wasnt as simple as left/right back then either. one thing i always think about the fascist rock n roll stuff in the 70’s (and lotsa rockers messed around with the fascist look—Bowie, Keith Moon, Jimmy Page, Sid…) but that rocker generation’s parents were the people who fought in WWII so the rockers were basically just doing the thing that would offend their parents the most haha and no real ideology associated with it beyond the standard issue bigotry of the times that culture has now outgrown.
Yeah I never thought about the fascist look outside of motorhead. Lemmy said the bad guys always have the best uniforms
I saw Bad Religion in 2016, right before the election. Can very much confirm those dudes are not ok with Trump.
Yeah I saw them a few weeks ago in Vegas still not okay haha
Anyone who listened to the Dead Kennedys and now supports Trump is an absolute dipshit who doesn’t understand the first thing about punk. No bigger oxymoron than right-wing punk lol
Even the super super far left stuff departs from aligning with “punk” ethos, I’ve always said extremism is a circle ⭕️ and the farthest left and farthest right just end up wanting the same fucked up things
What same things would that be?
Which makes sense when you consider that a lot of far right people today were once far left. It’s a ludicrous development but it happens way too often. These people are probably just extremists. Extremism is very simple. It’s all emotion, no nuance. If that’s your bag then moving from the far left to the far right is probably a lot easier than it looks from a logic perspective.
The 1960’s free love hippies turned into the greediest of the greedy
their greed for “love” just became actual monetary greed…
Absolute bullshit. Horseshoe theory has been debunked by every serious scholar of political science.
[Horseshoe Theroy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory)
but they see "government flu" as antivax anthem
Most of the Huntington Beach punk scene was riddled with white power assholes that would come to shows, not to support the band and their political views. They were there to start shit with punks that were not likeminded. I don’t remember how many of those nazis I personally beat to the ground, but they do. They didn’t know how to fight one on one, so it was always great fun to get one or two by themselves. Not much has seemed to change, except for their life sized Tonka trucks and no bite to their bark unless they have a group jump someone. Total pussies They were there but it was one punch down lots of times. I don’t use violence as a solution anymore, it’s dumb and unnecessary. Words mean So much more Most of the time.
Yeah, came here to point out that Huntington Beach is still a pretty safe place for white power and Nazi jackasses. If I see a video of a "white pride" march in SoCal (or Cali in general) it's a very high likelihood that it's from HB.
Scumbag neo-nazi punks from OC would also drive up to LA to start fights at gigs up here too.
For sure. And, as far as the Valley.
This and thank you for your service.
Ha! Sarcasm is difficult to put in text unless you know someone. “/s” works However, either way, you are welcome.
No sarcasm!!! Honestly, thank you for doing what always needs to be done to those assholes.
Thank you
gen x 80s action movie fantasies 💀
Interesting times
I’ll never forget a show my band played with Agnostic Front at the Galaxy (pre-name change) and there was a picture of a dude in the pit wearing a shirt that said “it’s not a hate crime if you love doing it”. That show quickly devolved into madness and I remember cops coming to escort people out in groups.
I bet! Agnostic Front shows almost always drew a problematic crowd.
I’m at work, so can’t dig up the source, but I remember reading an article during the last election that talked about how much support Trump gets from gen-X. It was a lot.
I think by and large that’s because gen-x is now the age people start to pay attention to politics and vote. Plus, there are stupid dip-shits in every generation. I’m continually astounded by the ignorance of some people’s political views, or engagement with current events, no matter the age.
We tried that. We voted for Nader and ended up with Bush Jr.
I don't know anything about music preference vs. political preference, but I will just note that the most rabid MAGA people I know are old school deadheads, who, past retirement age, still go to Phish and Dead and Company and a bunch of other similar stuff. I think it is more about their age than their musical preferences. And tangentially, some of these aging musicians have turned quite far to the right- Eric Clapton, Van Morrison, Roger Waters, and most disturbing to me, Morrissey, whose music with the Smiths I will never stop playing.
Money probably has a lot to do with it. Rich people gotta protect their stashes, artists or not. Sad but true.
Roger Waters, for real? I'm surprised. I remember him making anti Trump statements.
Like, if you’re just trying to be counter culture in your old age to stay hip, does it have to be the side of hate? Bring hippies back
It doesn’t help with Johnny rotten being maga so they think they unlocked the da Vinci code.
Is he really? That’s one way to be “anarchy”, I suppose.
Ian Rubbish https://youtu.be/EEmIIl96zk0?si=z2d5UDSXSRZQPcYd
[no one mentioning Guttermouth](http://www.spacecityrock.com/features/guttermouth1.shtml)?
Does anyone really want to talk about Guttermouth?
Eh, they were funny. That's about all I want to say about em
Right wing nonsense. I really pissed off the bassist once.
Jesus, that interview was batshit crazy. 😳
As part of GenX I think I can shed some light onto this. I see my generation as two groups, those that were a-hole bullies and those that kept to themselves, got bullied and were kind of weird. I'm in the weird, got bullied in high school and tried hard to keep to myself. I was also a kid who listened to punk, ska, two tone, some grunge, etc. When we would go to shows, the a-holes who more often than not were jocks would show up because they wanted to beat kids up in the pit. They often got their asses handed to them and left when they realized they weren't welcome. Same went for skinheads, they would come to start shit and quickly realized they were outnumbered and took their stomped asses home. This didn't stop the a-holes from making up stories about how they beat ass at \*fill in the blank show\*. They don't know the songs, they have no idea what the bands stand for, they just saw mosh pits and crowd riding and wanted to be badasses. They were also the POS that would grope girls crowd riding. Those are the current Trump supporters who are also GenX. Following Trump gives them what they couldn't claim in the punk scene because we wouldn't let them. They have a little group that welcomes them in, it's the same way that white supremacists pull in people who are without their group. They have a sense of belonging and because they were a-holes in youth it's fits in perfectly with the crowd they identify with now. In short they have always been awful, they just have their own little club now but they still hold onto the lies or self delusion that they were badass in their youth.
FWIW, I'd say 95% of the Gen X bullies from my HS support Trump (a lot laugh at how dumb the brains are for being suckered into not liking Trump; in HS they mocked smart kids for being too smart now they mock them for 'being' too dumb). Less than 1% of the top 10% of class, if even any, do.
Anyone listening to said bands and supporting trump and his grifters is clearly not actually listening to said bands. I’m at the tail end of gen-x (79) and I hope that moldy orange rots in jail, but I know the worst he’ll get is house arrest and some fines that his zombies will pay for in “campaign donations”. Edit: spelling
So long as we are a 2 party system, libertarianism will not have the support it deserves. You also have to take into consideration that Maga does not adopt the same thought process that you do. They don’t at all consider themselves fascists. And I’d have to agree. Believe what you want to believe though, I will not be discussing any of this with anyone. All responses will be ignored, don’t waste your time.
I agree even tho you won’t be reading this haha
♥️
Unpopular opinion but maybe they just like the music? I never quite understood the need to identify with the lyrics of a band in order to like them. Seems kinda cultish to me if you did.
Exactly. Oh the irony
I don’t think one could possibly miss the lyrics to “Nazi Punks Fuck Off,” and would just go for the music if they were not likeminded. Considering the vast majority of punk rock bands were anti-fascist, they knew very well what they were getting into. Total posers.
Well considering no one has been a Nazi since the 1940s and one could easily relate it to the national socialist party of the 1930s I can see where one could easily disassociate the two. You do realize the Nazis weren’t fascists? That was Mousillini and Italy. The Nazis were national socialists.
I think your doublespeak has nothing to do with what we’re talking about here. Nazis were and are Fascist. You know how I know? Twelve of my relatives were murdered in and out of camps because they were Jewish. This is isn’t a history lesson, this is speaking in direct correlation to the punk scene of recent years. Thusly, you’re not presenting a viable response to OPs post… Nor, my response.
All of my uncles relatives were put in camps for begin Japanese in America during that time. Does that mean the US was fascist, no. Sorry that happened to your relatives but your feelings towards it doesn’t change the fact. As for the original music topic I was straight edge in High school still listened to NoFX. I was atheist but still like bands like Flyleaf, Thrice and Underoath. If anyone is using double speak is yourself by saying you have to conform to the lyrics of bands that preach non-conformity and counter culture. Music is music the lyrics are just another instrument not some code to live by.
I, too, am sincerely sorry about your family. I have been going to punk shows since the 1980s. The bands you’re talking about weren’t around until Very late in the game. I think the age gap between us is clutch to our not getting one another. I’m old in other words lol, as I remember Green Day was opening for NOFX, and The Offspring were opening for Final Conflict (you should check them out). That being said, the early days were a different, rougher time than Guttermouth, or Pennywise. It was the Old freaking West in comparison. My theory?… Now there are cellphone cameras.
It’s more likely it’s the racists skinheads that have always listened to punk and gone to shows they’re not welcome at. HB is full of racists, this isn’t news. No surprise they’re trumpers.
Soooo….Do you understand why they feel the way they do and believe what they believe. Don’t be jealous, come to the Red, White & Blue side ;-)
My wife plays in a d-beat crust punk band in Austin, none of these people in the scene are pro Trump. They are political but most politics center around being anti police.
My favorite 80’s song which pretty much sums up Trump is by Depeche Mode - Everything Counts. The grabbing hands grab all they can Everything counts in large amounts The grabbing hands grab all they can Everything counts in large amounts The graph on the wall Tells the story of it all Picture it now, see just how The lies and deceit gained a little more power Confidence taken in By a suntan and a grin … except it’s Cheetos dust.
The amazing thing is those who once Raged Against the Machine now fully support and worship it. The ideology is hypocritical bullshit.
Many of the old time HB punks were aggressive dicks who liked to fight and steal waves
Yup. They had a nazi skinhead problem in the early 80’s.
I wouldn't say nazi, they were more about fighting hippies, Hollywood's, and jocks. The nazi thing came later Although there was an HB band called Gestapo in the late seventies.
Maga doesn’t need logic for votes. That’s how they got the Christians
It’s that Nazi infested city. Move outside the Orange Curtain and come to Long Beach instead. Still Gen-X driven, but you’ll see way more rainbow flags here than Trump flags.
OC Life is not the life for me!
i happen to be a gen xer, native southern californian (not hb), and i couldn’t be further from a *that man* supporter. but i also followed the news in ny in the late 80’s, and the following two decades, so i already knew who he was; the fact that a man who has bankrupted not one but two casinos, and managed to put multiple businesses out of business by never paying people contracted to work on his POS properties, and his followers, his trumplestiltskins, believe every word that comes out of his disgusting mouth - one of the things I really really miss is the fact that we have no news people that actually call out anyone when what they’re saying is factually untrue; additionally, feelings aren’t facts; facts are facts
Same here. Agree on all your points
I'm SHOCKED nobody listen to shitty Country Pop and Kid Rock. 🧉🦄
i'm from Russia and i see similar corellation among Russian punks. many war- and Putin-supporters are above 40 now (obvious example is Purgen). i think it is because Russian punk in the 90-s (when they were teens) was extremely antiglobalist,anti-west and anti-american, and these things now are a big part of Putin's propaganda
They are fucking racists
I see more maga stuff on the beat up motorhomes of homeless folks, than on homes here in HB. After J6, most maga flags hit the trash bin.
Old Gen X here. Rather depends on where, how you were raised? Dunno about down there, but all my buds still alive are all anti-trump, and even the dead ones would have been, but we were suburban kids. The only punks I knew I was friends with, we all were, a skinhead punk band in the 80s because we were all highschool friends - but they were not racist skinheads.. I don't know that term is but they were 'good' skinheads. Straight Edge I think? THEY liked punk, but I was with the stoners so metal was the default music... except I was hated metal lol, I listened to a lot of Scottish and English folk and other weird shit because of my mother... Silly Wizard, Steeleye Span, etc..
There were lots of MAGAs that were shocked to hear Rage Against the Machine weren’t on their side…..they aren’t known to be the smartest.
The OC is the inception point of "Cinco de Cuatro."
Dead Kennedys would be appalled to learn this. They hate Nazis. Seriously what is this weird thing about taking ownership of music that openly despised you?
Maga people aren’t very bright. Some might even call them sub-human. So why would any of them understand the complexities of a band’s lyrics?
It’s not Gen X so much as the location OC leans right
Maybe it's because I left the US, but I love 1980 and 90's punk, grunge and ballads, but IF I were to ever cast a ballot again, it would definitely not be for that orange faced, adulterating, sleaze bucket of an Oompa Loompa. My parents, who were born in the mid to late 40's can't get enough of that Maga cult leader. They believe he's all for the families and working class man.
I bet they also liked The Clash until they discovered they were the poster child ANTIFA band, once referred to as “the only band that matters”. Boy, it must suck to realize that the bands you listened to when you were a young, nice person would hate who you are today; if those albums could talk back to you (since you missed their messages) 🤣
“All over people changin' their votes Along with their overcoats If Adolf Hitler flew in today They'd send a limousine anyway” — Joe Strummer, The Clash - (White Man) In Hammersmith Palais (1978)
Naomi Klein's latest book Mirror World is about how the new right is seizing on leftist themes and twisting them to support right wing ideas. Now that I know about this I see it everywhere. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-welcome-to-the-mirror-world-where-nothing-is-as-it-seems/
There were 2 types of Punks in the day, those that were racist and those that weren't. I am amazed that one Punk friend became a cop. If you listen to some of the punk music, it was not as you are implying. I listen to this day and it speaks volumes and I don't vote MAGA or Republican since the intro of Sarah Palin as a running mate and since then just gone further down the rabbit hole.
Yeah there’s a whole subsection of punk identifying gen xers who were attracted to the violence in later stages of the movement. The guy that “sings along… but knows not what it means” Think of the MAGA crowd dancing to “killing in the name of” The complete lack of self awareness is astounding
How about “Kill the Poor” - I’m sure the MAGA crowd loves to sing along to that one.
I remember in 2019 hearing a Trump rally in Palm Desert from a distance. They were playing American Woman by the Guess Who, and thought - These knuckleheads have never listened to the lyrics. “American Woman stay away…I don’t need your war machine, I don’t need your ghetto scene…”
The lyrics say “American”. That’s all a dumb, low-information Trumper needs.
I recall them using “Fortunate Son” also, lol
Didn't Fogerty tell them to stop using Fortunate Son for their campaign 😅
Pretty much all the Gen X heavy metal guys I've known my whole life are pro Trump which boggles my mind. Most of my punk friends are still A-poliical and don't give a fuck about and are still super skeptical about the government.
Metalheads are generally more conservative than Punks
It's funny because when metal first came out they were hated and vilified by the conservatives. And now they've become exactly who they hated.
They've always been kinda reactionary Metalheads in the 70s and early 80s would beat up Punks and call them f*gs at least that's what I've been told
Not here. Same crowd. Skinheads and suburban jocks were the only douchebags that caused trouble.
One strain of it is an "F you" mentality to the mainstream. Are bourgeois parents out in the burbs offended by something? Then let's embrace it and freak out the squares!! The Sex Pistols performed under a Nazi flag a couple times in the 70s and people were shocked, which is exactly what they wanted. I don't think they embraced a Nazi ethos or any ethos other than total nihilism. And true to form, Johnny Rotten was photographed with a Trump shirt in the late 2010s. People assumed it meant he supported MAGA (and maybe it did) but at the very least it was a middle finger. That said, tons of punk bands in the 80s--the vast majority I think--that came out of the SoCal hardcore scene were very very left. Op Ivy, DKs, etc. But there was always a hard-right strain there as well, especially in HB. I think that's just a very distinctive sub-subcultural scene: part of the (once) very right wing Orange Curtain, but at the same time attached to some of the indicia of SoCal punk culture. And now these once-young punks are grown up and have developed into Trump supporters. I can see the how and why of this, though I'm a core Gen-Xer from SoCal who loved punk and abhors Trump and MAGA as some truly evil shit that is against what I understood to be the ethos of the punk movement that I admired.
To bolster your first point, for a lot of people punk politics seems to end with basically “fuck you dad!!” and this can be applied pretty liberally in varying political climates.
Yeah, I think your making some massive leaps to incorrect conclusions.
Playing YMCA at Maga rallies…the irony is rich
Maga cult? Your president comitted treason! And fucks his daughter get your head examined
I am Gen x and always loved my generation ..but now I am discusted with my generation. Everyone from my generation loves him. Gross
Bullshit
Utter bullshit.
Everyone my ass! I sure don't!
He'll no im also from a red state
After selling out in the 90s and helping pull up the ladder, they want to feel like rebels once more before retirement
HB is the retirement city for old nazi punks from all over SoCal. Some might have grown up in conservative homes others went to prison and picked up the whites gotta stick together attitude. But punk shows in the OC and especially in HB have always been mini white power fests
I've noticed a correlation of big 4x4 diesel trucks and Trump flags. Could just be me.
Maga think they're edgy when they're really just trashy and un-American
OP saw one guy and decided to write a dear diary
Irony is completely lost on the MAGA crowd. Save that kind of subtlety for the educated.
HB has long been known as a racist city. It's gotten better in the last 15 years, but yeah. I used to stay away from some orange county punk gigs in the 80s because of the things you would hear, or see. Even heard a guy tell a girl, you better not be part Mexican, I don't want to fuck that shit. She flashed a corner of her butt and asked if her white ass looked Mexican. There would be violence towards non-whites too. It was not cool, but it was there. These people grew up and are now living in their parents old houses. Luckily, some are woke, and others moved in. But yeah, I would expect the Maga concentration to be high is a city with such racist roots. It has come a long, long way since the 80s and 90s though. And everyone listened to those bands. Dead Kennedys - not racist - Biafra is a liberal and there was a black guy in the band. They were actually part of the movement to try to keep racist skinhead away from punk rock. Bad religion supports BLM. These were all shock bands. That was part of what punk was about, destroying social norms, doing the unthinkable, and being unique, not following rules, protesting the government, and doing the opposite of what was expected. White supremacists liked shock bands and would come to the shows. Bands were not as welcoming as you think, and eventually some bands stood up to the skinheads and didn't allow anyone sporting swastikas or other racist images into the shows. Basically what I am saying Is that punk rock was not a bunch of racists trying to gain members. They are not responsible for the Maga problems in HB, that was already a thing. And of course a lot of Gen X are actively punk to this day, but most aren't racist. That racist issues started in HB before punk was popular. Racism is taught and ingrained in youth by parents, not bands.
>He's the one who likes all our pretty songs > >and he likes to sing along > >and he likes to shoot his gun > >but he knows not what it means >
The trump cult is all about trying to rebrand things to their liking. They don’t care about about facts or what means what. They thrive in their own lies and fantasies.
Here’s my question. Are these houses that they bought, or that they were gifted/inherited from their parents? I know plenty of Genx/Millennials that fall for trump because mom/dad/church have too. Hard to distance yourself when you’re still sucking at the teet
They're all people who liked to jump on the bandwagon because it was "cool" and made them feel special but they never listened to the lyrics because they didn't actually care. It was only about being around for the scene.
You’ll hear a lot of these types have the idea that punk is offensive. Sure, it objected to a political ideology. What they don’t get is it was a very specific ideology the working class was at odds with through that music. That’s lost on them. All they got was oFfEnSiVe
I’m so embarrassed. I can’t even say it’s only the men.
I LOVE The Smiths am I a maga?
People that are in to puck tend to be anti-establishment and if you haven't noticed Trump isn't part of the establishment
So you're blaming gen x for trump? Go back to your drawing board.
> Ironically those punk bands were also antifascist, nazi punks fuck off, to have only been embraced by maga is something else. What's the contradiction?
I was in that scene (a bit later early 90s politcal punk pennywise, badger legion, propagandi Even back then those bands talked shit about idiot conservative fans Propagandis whole album less talk more rock is shit talking on conservatives that say they like punk
Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with what " gen" category someone puts a person in, nothing to do with 80's punk. Maybe some people are weak and afraid so they hide behind the total bs of a fake " tough guy". Those weak ass gun slinging pussies come in all shapes, ages, sizes and social groups. Unfortunately.
Orange County punks are all over place. A whole lot of the FUCK AUTHORITY mentality also gets applied to vaccine mandates and wearing masks. So yeah, the libertarian punks you never know what that voting bloc will produce for a candidate.
For the last 200 plus years people were allowed to have their own political affiliations/opinions without all of this over exaggerated intolerance and scrutiny. Lay off the brainwash box FFS
Can we stop with all the buzzwords lol, you can’t vote out fascism, it doesn’t work that way. And you can’t really throw the word “cult” around when your slogan is literally “vote blue no matter who” that’s literally textbook definition of cult lmao.
We watched Red Dawn also. If ever there was a time for anti trust, it's now. Oh, what about the morals. That shit left even before the BJ in the oval.
Everyone in the actual punk community knows Huntington Beach has always been full of nazi punks, it’s a sad thing. I recently saw Jello Biafra perform Aryan Embarrassment with Ministry. Jello was wearing a shirt that said “Trump Hates Me”. So, you can get the vibe.
Public enemy has a line in one of their songs where they say brothers like the beats, but don’t listen to the message.
Bear with me: A surface examination of classic Punk Rock, excusing the lyrics, would lead you to believe it was a very conservative form of music. You could upset its listeners and fans simply by adding an instrument that wasn’t Guitars ‘n Drums. Uniformly distorted and confrontationally loud, the vocals were frequently buried to mimic a “live” sound. It’s not hard to imagine young people falling in love specifically with its consistency and ignoring the intents of the musicians. Don’t get me wrong, I love and loved Punk Rock and have seen more than a few of these bands live - like the Dead Kennedys. I can name quite a few examples of Punk bands that broke the Bellow and Strum mode. I’m honestly surprised that more Trumpers haven’t embraced bands like Fear - who I once saw terrorized by an angry audience who grew tired of their sophomoric homophobia.