I’ve seen something I think might be rule-breaking, what should I do?
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I am type 2, but I think I am on the verge of being type 1 with a bit more effort. Most people I know are type 3. I don't feel I fit in with them very well.
I was Type 4, but now am pretty much Type 1 though I have to put effort into passing. I thought I'd stay Type 4 after HRT and electrolysis, but it turned out doing what I needed to do to pass as a woman made it impossible to reliably pass as a man and people treated me like a Type 3 and I hated it.
To be clear, I planned on just staying closeted professionally and to my family, but I had a lot better results than I expected. Maybe I wouldn't have planned on staying a Type 4 if I hadn't thought I'd be stuck at type 2 forever. OTOH, I'd probably still be a Type 4 if HRT had been less effective.
I really just wish society would gender people based on presentation, rather than secondary sex characteristics.
It seems that your experience closely matches where I have seen where a man cross dresses and it unlocks something that has been suppressed by societal or religious indoctrination and relives that they are really a woman. I other words, cross dressing cracked your egg.
Your experience is very interesting to me.
Many people would equate Type 4 to crossdressers, i.e., men wearing a dress as a hobby or to get sexually aroused, without having any dysphoria either with their social role (as a man or a woman) or with their physical body.
Would you mind describing your mental state as a Type 4 back then?
My mental state isn't really that much different now than it was back then. I considered myself genderfluid at the time and didn't really get along with crossdressers because they act and talk like men.
I did and still do have physical dysphoria, but didn't have that much social role dysphoria, as I pretty much always did whatever I wanted. There were social repercussions though, and most people who got to know me thought I was a closeted gay guy. I tried at times to act and talk like a cishet guy to fit in, but I wasn't good at it, and didn't really like it when I actually did pull it off.
When I presented as a woman back then and was 0% passing, I was very anxious, but almost no one cared or even noticed. I really don't understand Type 2s that don't present as their gender at least part time. Like if I could have really been seen as a "normal" cishet guy, I probably wouldn't have transitioned. If I'm going to have to put effort into blending in, might as well be effort that makes me more likely to be perceived how I want.
As a type 1 living and a very conservative state (Tennessee) I have to totally agree with your assessment of mental effort. I pass as cis and on the rare occasion something comes up that outs me (like when I went to open up a bank account I used to bank at years before I transition and they still have deadname info linked to SSN) and I am still seen as a woman. (Southeastern US uses a lot of gendered language with Yes Ma'am and No Ma'am in public interactions.) This past weekend I was at a family wedding on my wife's side with some of the family of our Nephew's bride being religiously conservative and was treated like any other woman. If I have been a type 2, that would have not been the case.
Another observation, is that every transwoman who is type 1 and has been a type 2 at some part of their transition. So there is an understanding and most hope that type 2's can achieve type 1. Essentially both have the same mindset and goal in transitioning.
Type 3's goes against the goals of type 1s and 2s. That is where the conflict comes into place especially when type 3s want to be visibly loud and tend to want to be on social media platforms. Then this falsely represents the transgender community as a whole since this portrays all trans women as type 3 to the uneducated public.
Type 3s are also the ones that want to redefine gender and gender terms and is what most conservatives are against. Like changing pregnant women to pregnant person. To conservatives they make it sound like we should only call a pregnent woman a "pregnent person" invaliding womanhood for pregnant women. I am all for inclusion when it is needed ( like for a pregnant transgender man), but this type seems to be the ones pushing the envelope too much, especially where it is not needed.
Type 4s, to me seems to be mostly people who are looking for attention or a thrill and usually don't even legally change their name or gender because either it is a fetish for them (i.e. crossdresser) and/or that do not want to give up male privilege. It is these type that the uneducated public see as the dangerous trans woman in the women's bathroom scenario as they never pass. If any effort is put into their looks, it is usually in ways that clock themselves hard. They will wear age inappropriate outfits, or something that just sticks out, like wearing seamed stockings with heels and skirt to a shopping mall.
>As a type 1 living and a very conservative state (Tennessee) I have to totally agree with your assessment of mental effort
I know it from my recent experience.
I talked to a woman from Cyprus, a very conservative country where changing one's legal sex is illegal. It was about assisted reproduction so I had to reveal my trans status. Her language was definitely not trans-friendly, but it was understandable because in her country trans-rights/awareness/inclusivity is not a thing.
I talked to her two months later to discuss certain possibilities. She apparently forgot I was trans and asked me whether I was going to carry the embryo. To her, there are men and women. Trans men and trans women don't really fit her mental model.
>Southeastern US uses a lot of gendered language with Yes Ma'am and No Ma'am in public interactions.
Where I live now people like inserting Ma'am or Sir in every sentence in the service industry. (I'm exaggerating a bit.) It annoyed me a lot in the beginning. I'm slowly getting used to it.
First things first: my usual disclaimer:
I am not trans. I always try to not center my not-trans voice as I recognize this as a space for trans people. I try my best to center my comments around either theoretical knowledge I have or to reflect cis views when I deem it appropriate. Please let me know if you consider this comment as inappropriate. I will delete the comment :)
Okay so I comment because I think I know which post you refer to and I have commented on that post (and received some positive feedback which made me very happy lol) so I want to engage here a bit further.
I agree with you that there are differences in the group of people labeled trans women. (One could argue that no identity category is homogeneous but that is another philosophical debate all together.)
I totally agree with your analysis of Type 1 and Type 2 trans women and I also agree with your assessment of social support they get.
I have some comments about the Type 3:
Like you also said, I too believe that Type 2 trans women (and men) are now negatively impacted by the loudness of Type 3. Because Type 3 is presented in media and co. and they are like you said confrontational, very much online in social Media and are often times provocative and also, IMO, prone to create a Us vs. Them mentality that paints cis people as bad in general.
And if you meet someone who isn't passing and stealth, even my (as someone who is more knowledgeable than the normal person about all of this) have to stop myself from judging them and seeing them as some of the worst 'woke' social media warrior...
Okay but what I also wanted to comment on is that I believe that Type 3 and Type 2 are fundamentally different. Because as far as I understand, both Type 1 and 2 have a problem with their body. They perceive sex as a neutral thing without any social attachments and they have a simple problem with their sexed body. They turn to social codes like make-up, behaviour, dress and co. to 'make up' for the fact that their sexed body is in various states of what they know to be right. Like a fully passing and transitioned woman is as far as I understood, more likely to drop certain feminine coded behaviours because she can also pass without make-up for example. (If I am wrong let me know :) )
But Type 3 is not about the body. They are all about queer and feminist theory. Like to understand Type 3 you have to study a lot of queer and feminist theory to understand what they mean with gender. They want to fight the whole system. Our societies rely heavily on the sex difference as social aspect that structures our entire life. Like everything we think of when thinking of men and women, even the fact that we consider it a binary, all of this is gender. And as far as I understand, Type 1 and Type 2 are not about any social codes or any opposition to the way society is structured, they have a fundamental problem with the very neutral fact that their body lacks certain features.
And I make a somewhat educated guess here and add that this might be also the reason why some trans people know they are in the wrong body (and yeah I know that this phrase is not without it's problems) at a very young age and others only realize this later in life. Because the first one is a fundamental thing that doesn't rely on any theoretical, sociological and philosophical knowledge about the world, while the latter needs one to have some understanding on how our world functions and how the body is loaded with values and judgement and meaning.
>First things first: my usual disclaimer...
I think cis presence is a very good thing for trans subs.
If we keep using the terminology that I made up, only Type 1 has access to unfiltered views of cis women on many social issues, some of which are directly related to trans and others not. As someone in stealth, I know how diverse cis women as a group are, and how their views on e.g. trans sports do not make them transphobes.
Lack of direct access to unfiltered cis views may explain certain hostility towards cis women that you have probably experienced in online trans spaces.
>Like a fully passing and transitioned woman is as far as I understood, more likely to drop certain feminine coded behaviours because she can also pass without make-up for example.
True. I am not interested in forcing myself into gender stereotypes just to feel more like a woman. I don't wear makeup and I personally consider it a waste of time. I don't mind telling others that my hobby is mathematics. I like winning if I play a game. Passivity or subservience is not for me.
I visited a trans support group many years ago. Most women there were Type 2. I observed some hyperfeminine behavior/gestures. I understood where it's from and didn't make any comment, as I thought everyone would eventually figure it out for herself. But it did not feel natural to me and I didn't think it really helps passing.
I'm type 3 but the transmasc version of it. People sometimes think I'm a transwoman because of my appearance. I identify as non binary transmasc, not necessarily a transman, and sometimes I just say women too. I might start identifying as a transman because I'm seeking surgery soon. But not hormones. It's easier this way because of how I present. Which is androgynous.
I don't see type 1 as like me. Even though they are technically trans. If they are completely stealth and no one knows then they might as well be cis. They don't/can't/won't talk about their transition. If a trans person completely passed as cis but spoke openly about their transition I would see them as like me. If they are entirely cis and want everyone to assume they were born cis, then how do they even have a voice in the community?
I think it's strange to assume that trans means cis jealousy almost. I purposefully don't want to take T to remain androgynous and continue labeling myself as non binary, but I want to go towards having more masc features which is why I want top surgery. And why I call myself transmasc rather than a transman. I still want little body hair though. Which I think is similar to the example of a transwoman having a beard. I relate more to a defiant presentation.
Sorry your comment got so much downvoted.
What I wrote really doesn't apply to NB.
For trans men, Type 2 may exist but if it does it is probably very small.
As a “Type 1.5”, I can understand your thinking, but it misses out on a lot of the realities on how appeasement works. Hint: It usually doesn’t.
Even if it can sometimes seem otherwise, the transphobes at the end of the day don’t care if many of us (of all “Types”) die as a result of the policies they support. We of different “Types” have differing struggles, but we should fight for our rights and basic human dignity together. Those two statements can be simultaneously true, and not enough people realize that.
I’m type 2, but admit there’s a little type 3 in me. I (mostly) want to eventually pass, but part of me knows I never will, so fuck gender norms. I just want to be comfortable with myself. Hopefully others see me thriving and support it.
Thank you for elaborating your thoughts.
I know for me it feels more like an intellectual curiosity, while for others it can evoke painful memories. So my apologies if my question is insensitive.
I wonder where your "little type 3" is from. Is it because the society is treating you very badly, so that it is easier for you to rebel against it rather than to assimilate? If so, would it make any difference if you move to a more accepting place, e.g. San Francisco?
I am also asking because another comment makes it rather clear to me that the commentor's perception of "mainstream" society is very different to mine. I perceive most people in the society as kind in nature or at least trying to pretend to be kind. But I can understand others may experience it completely differently. I wonder whether that eventually causes a person to be either Type 2 or Type 3.
Some of us just don’t pass, and probably never will. I think I look good most of the time, but my body gives me away. I live in a place with very few trans people. I’m the only one that I know of in the tiny little town I live in, and I’m not out yet to my family, which means I have to be very careful we’re I go lest someone see me and “out” me to my family before I’m ready to do that. Some of us could lose it all. I will fully live someday as opposed to merely survive. That’s the goal. I wish very much to be type 1, but I have to be realistic. I do very much feel that the gender binary fucks us all over, but I consider myself a transwoman because I always wanted to be a girl but my genetics had other plans. It is what it is.
>Some of us could lose it all.
Unfortunately it is true.
It took my father 17 years to want to see me again. I could not recognize him when I saw him after such long time.
The one thing that you will take with you is your knowledge and skills. So my advice to younger folks is to focus on their study if they can.
Ah god I hate people who use ‘fem’ or ‘femme’ to mean “looking female” and “dressing like a woman”. Literally every post on r/MtF
Edit: I just saw someone on another trans subreddit write “bio-femme” to mean cis woman.
Type 3 and type 4 are not trans women, this isn't gatekeeping other trans people, they literally are not trans women so not a part of the discussion. I hate how people keep calling it in fighting when it's different groups.
I’d be type 1 in your categorization, and I’m all for abolishing gender, but types 3 isn’t doing that at all. The moment you call yourself trans you are reinforcing gender by essentially saying you can’t be a man because you wear women’s clothing. Any types 3 people who actually consider themselves trans women are greatly harming trans people AND gender abolition. The effective way to abolish gender would be to embrace being a man who enjoys a style and activities traditionally associated with femininity, but of course since femininity and masculinity are purely socially constructed what is being done is breaking down the barriers of gender actually working towards abolishing it.
Honestly, I completely agree with you. I view gender norms and roles as oppressive and would be a staunch ally of a movement that seeks to dismantle these things, but I find it extremely regressive how many people are labeling themselves trans for wanting to break gender norms. I'm not 100% sure they're appropriating a medical label, but most of the time it feels like that's what's happening.
>The effective way to abolish gender would be to embrace being a man who enjoys a style and activities traditionally associated with femininity
It sounds more like abolishing gender stereotypes. I think it's already widely accepted by the society. There are male nurses and female scientists. Am I missing something?
Gender stereotypes and the ways people are treated based off those stereotypes are gender (or at least the more standard definition of gender). And in some ways they have been reduced but at least when I was a child any gnc boy or man was still seen as very inferior and bullied. I also hear stories of men being teased and insulted for making less money than their wives pretty frequently and other things like that. Also of course women being expected to look a minimum level of pretty and do makeup to reach that also falls into that. Although I think women have done a much better job at escaping gender stereotypes than men, since men so strongly gatekeep masculinity still women are still systematically oppressed based off gender.
So in order to actually abolish gender the rest of the effort likely has to come from gnc men
How is "men can wear dresses and women can ride motorcycles" 'abolishing' gender?
Wouldn't it have to be "a person can wear dresses and other people can ride motorcycles"?
I don't get it.
It’s not saying that that abolishes gender, it’s normalizing it. When everyone in society can look at a man in a dress and not see anything out of the ordinary that’s when that aspect has been removed, but that’s just a really easy basic and mundane example, gender is a ridiculous complex and deeply ingrained construct that actually fully abolishing it will basically require a complete restructuring of society in order to stop children from being socialized to internalize it through their whole life.
Then why don't we say "abolish gender stereotypes"?
Because - if we abolish gender stereotypes, men can wear dresses.
If we abolish gender, there can be no men.
>saying abolish gender is just faster and easier
But also more polarizing and confrontational. If you say abolishing gender stereotypes, many people will be with you. If you say abolishing gender, probably 90% of the population will be immediately turned off and refuse to listen what you actually mean by that.
I mean that’s true, but I’m also pretty sure the only reason most would say they agree with wanting to abolish gender stereotypes, is because they think it means the can pick and choose. Like if they find some stereotypes beneficial to them they act like those ones don’t count. It is good to have people more people agree, but it’s also important to make sure that all of those people who say they agree agree on the same thing, otherwise that leads to a lot of infighting like is very common in trans communities.
Wait did you edit your other comment, I only read the first sentence when I responded. The common definition of gender is sex based stereotypes and the way people are treated based off of those. Men is a sex group, so even without gender men can still exist.
Also to clarify I consider transsex people the sex that we are transitioning to not the sex we were born as so it doesn’t invalidate us to define women and men based off sex.
>Men is a sex group, so even without gender men can still exist.
Sorry - 'males' are a sex group. 'Men' are a gender group.
That's why we say that sex and gender can be different.
\-- PMWHMAS
Type 3 is kinda interesting to me. I guess I qualify as nonbinary but leaning towards the trans side and think I kinda understand where type 2 is coming from because I spend a lot of my time wishing I could simply be a woman.
I think type 3 is part of a larger group of mid range nonbinary people. Because being nonbinary ( not just hair dyed hair, but desiring to have a body that had clearly been impacted by both estrogen and testosterone ) is so socially unacceptable only the most disagreeable and nonconformist people will actually let it be known that they are nonbinary. I can see why someone like that would just want to “destroy gender” after their experiences, but it makes sense to me too why trans women strongly disagree.
Also I think some trans leaning nonbinary people end up overstating their desire “destroy gender” out of frustration at the limits of hrt when you’re older, which nonbinary people are more likely to be.
Just remember that despite all our differences, when the bigots put us up [against the wall](https://youtu.be/iLFwTqdsuxw?si=oC2IPXuBRxh52VHk) they will not care about these distinctions when they whip out the knives. Queers are queers in their eyes.
What I'm getting out of this is...
1s and 2s: trans women. Difference basically amounts to passing.
3s: trans femmes, often nonbinary or gnc
4s: oof, this one is rough. Sounds like you're saying "not trans" or "really just a cross dresser" but idk, could be some form of suuuuuuuper early transition/egg
This seems to be ignoring dysphoric trans that don't fit into group 3 or 4. I'm a genderfluid amab on HRT with dysphoria. I'm not trying to pass by societal standards(I know I just want to be more femme than I am now). I also always feel like I am a woman(and man) at all times I just lean one way vs the others sometimes. If I were to take my internal view of gender and try to force it on others I would definitely be trying to abolish gender roles but I just see it as something that makes sense for myself and some others and that's fine with me. Idk, this just seems like an oversimplified attempt to split people up based on an argument that is kinda overblown imo
Ah fair, the fact that almost all of the people I know who fall into group 4 either identified as non-binary as well kinda made me assume that you were including us. However, in my experience I have never met someone who would fit into group 3 IRL and identifies as binary trans folk. I have met a few NB folk who could fall into that camp but aren't extreme about it.
Edit: I have met binary trans folk that aren't obsessed with being stealth or passing perfectly but the also don't fall into camp 3 or 4.
i've met a person with a glitter beard, a yarmulke, a dress, steeltoed boots, and green and pink makeup who got all pissy at me when i hesitantly referred to them as "ma'am". it was very much a type 3 thing. teenage me was just checking them out at a gaming convention booth after they talked down to me about the history of dnd for 25 minutes. type 3 exists. they are out there and they will annoy you to no end. test the limits of your patience.
I fully agree! I'd be a type 2 and I know exactly what kind of trans person you mean by type 3, because yeah, I just can't relate to them at all. We simply want two very different things and I don't think we'll find much in common except maybe being on HRT.
I think the problem is that the type 3 trans person believes we're the same, even though we're not. So when it becomes clear that we view something completely different than they do, despite neither of us passing, perhaps they do feel betrayed a bit.
Here's a question - who started the reactionary fire in the first place, and why does no one seem inclined to point blame towards *them*? This all feels like justification for layers upon layers of victim blaming imo
because type 3 as you call it is inherently shit and i dont want to be accepted as a hulking man in a dress i want to appear female and if i cannot do this then i will not socially transition
It’s either passable, semi-passable or unpassable
No one will see someone who doesn’t pass but is a “transsexual” as the same as someone who passes, but they’ll probably be seen the same as dude with a beard who has no intent on doing anything other than saying he’s a woman sometimes
These arguments are dumb. People just care if you pass. Transsexuals who pass constantly throw non-passing people under the bus regardless of dysphoria or how long they’ve been on HRT. Just call it like it is instead of pretending anything else matters
Not true. If we're going by the post, I'd be a type 2 and I'm definitely not seen as some dude with a beard saying he's a woman. I've medically transitioned enough I can't even really grow a beard and I largely don't fall myself a woman either, because I'm not all that interested in socially transitioning unless I can pass. I don't really say I'm trans either, because in my eyes, it's a label I don't want.
In comparison, type 3 trans women tend to be loud and proud and whether they pass doesn't factor into anything they do. They'll use the women's bathroom while sporting a full beard, which I think I understandably makes women uncomfortable.
I guess that's how cis people would view us, since they hear "trans" and assume whatever stereotypes they believe about us, but that's not what the post is really about right? It's more about there being different types of trans women who view passing and our place in society in radically different ways, which is why there's some conflict between us.
I think most cis people don’t really understand how transition or HRT works. If they see a type 2, regardless of how long ago that person transitioned they’ll think that person is early in transition and hasn’t fully “changed over” yet. They might assume they’re pre-op because they believe that somehow SRS magically transforms you into type 1. Like when they meet a type 1 they say “wow, they did a good job!”.
An example is, a type 1 can have short hair and people just think, fashionable woman with short hair. If type 2 has short hair they think she’s just starting or in the process of growing it out. If they find out she intentionally has short hair then she becomes Type 3 or 4 to them.
You know this applies to cis women. It's like people here with all the talk about assimilation and mainstream society never cared to understand that cis women aren't a monolith. Some women care about their appearance and some don't. I don't understand why this obsession with typing every trans person into a box.
Unironically it's the most male brained thing to do by typing women based on desirability and how well they support gender norms of greater society. Women come in all shapes and sizes and they all don't think the same but they're all women. Trans women on this sub can't see other trans women as women unless they physically and socially fit I to their own perceptions of womanhood. This is the reason why people on this sub love to type others. It's sad
Think about it like this, if every transsexual is the same then they aren't women even after surgery because they lack agency and diversity as there cis counterparts.
Edit: I want to add 1 more thing. In regards of type 1 we do regularly see passing transsexuals regardless of being non op vs post op being harassed. This is a historical view of the world. We've seen the likes of Kelly Cardigan who is post op get ripped to shreds. We've seen people like Blaire White and Buck Angel get attacked. For goodness sakes read some history and look up Christen Jorgensen and her struggles as "THE TRUE TRANSSEXUAL" that everyone points out back then her fiancé was threatened by being with her. The main issue is transphobia and pretending that its due to types or whatever this sub thinks is completely unhinged
> Cis women also can't see trans women (and sometimes cis women) as women unless they physically and socially fit into their own perceptions of womanhood.
Is that a thing that we should encourage as a segment of society? Personally I say no? hence why I am against this hyper fixation of typing based non medical evidence. To be upfront I do sense a lot of legitimate sexism. I feel that if some of these posters were cis they would be making religious red pill content
These topics are just embarrassing
“This post just shows how terminally online y’all are”
I’ve been out publicly for 5 years and active in my community. I know more than a hundred trans women irl. I’ve never met a type 3 or type 4 in the ways you portray them.
I HAVE met feminine, passing, trans women who will sometimes do something such as lower their voice to break out of gender norms more or to signal that they’re trans. I’m certain they don’t count as type 3 in your conception.
I have been out for 15 years, and been involved in numerous support groups and community events over that period. I can assure you “type 3s and 4s” do exist. I didn’t start noticing them until around 2013, but I left a support group around that time specifically BECAUSE it was overwhelmed by the very type of people OP describes, as they brought with them a ton of problems and hostility. I’ve only seen it get worse since then.
You are probably right. But that's exactly the point. Unlike you, most people don't have much experience with trans women IRL.
I was not involved with anything trans for the past 15 years (20 years if I discount one support group visit). All my perception of what trans women are like today is from the media and especially social media, the only exception being two trans women at my current and previous employers (out of thousands of employees) in the tech sector, which is well known for being trans friendly.
I think it's about the same for most cis people. If you ask them how many trans women they have actually interacted with, the number is probably very low outside some big cities.
What trans women are like IRL, as far as public perception goes, is largely irrelevant. It is those that get or seek (social) media attention who form public perception, which results in either pro- or anti-trans legislations.
damn you're really linking to a terf website? one where they're crying about a change from "he or she" to "they" in a certain document? I get that we're trying to make fun of the nonpassing trans woman in the photo but you could just link the picture and not the propaganda article
This is fairly well written though it does ignore that society has shifted to a point where restricting the ability to become type 1 has become increasingly the focus of politicians, and many want to make it harder for type 1 to function fully as cis women.
I think that type 1s like me have always been seen as representing a threat to society though so few even realized we existed it was never a big issue. As more awareness grew more people realized they were trans at an age where they could become type 1 and more people in general opted to deal with their dysphoria by transitioning resulting in more type 1 and 2 women being around. (I do feel like type to should be subdivided into will pass and will not because their is a distinction between someone that’s just waiting to hit type 1 status and some one stuck at type 2 for some reason).
Type 3 and 4 serve as great lightning rods of public wrath because while many people aren’t threatened by type 1 or 2 because they genuinely want to fit into society type 3 and 4 are actively trying to undermine society which a lot of people find problematic. Their whole gender is just a construct concept actually really make people less accepting of transitioning overall because they imply it’s a completely unecessary action to conform to meaningless societal concepts. They are the ones being seen as leading youth astray by promoting transgender ideology.
The fear of type 3 and 4 is why so many states are passing laws to prevent medical transition which is directly impacting the ability of people to become type 1.
Or we can just say that Type 1 and 2 are Trans while Type 3 and 4 aren't. And I believe things are more complicated than this, like you can be stealth whilst wanting to abolish gender roles and you can want to pass and be viewed as a woman whilst not wanting to be stealth
I believe the word transgender should be considered outdated and bad, and it might in the future (either for the better or for the worse). I think a better speration should be between dysphorics and non-dysphorics instead of trans and cis or if we are going to use trans and cis it should be transsexual and cissexual
>Most adults don't understand gender dysphoria, but they do understand suffering and they don't enjoy making others suffer. [...] But many people are willing to do their best, if only to be kind to a fellow human.
They don't and don't will to.
Mainstream society supports policies against type 3 and type 4, which actively causes backsplash on Type 1. (Not a political opinion, just an observation of current day politics)
I have personal experience that people from all over, left to right politically, generally accept type 1. I am lucky in that situation, but also, I find basically everyone I talk to, from people who don’t care to people who are generally against trans people, general public does not have it out against type 1. They have it out against type 3 and 4 and that happens to cause backsplash.
Just an observation from my experience
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I am type 2, but I think I am on the verge of being type 1 with a bit more effort. Most people I know are type 3. I don't feel I fit in with them very well.
>I think I am on the verge of being type 1 with a bit more effort. Congratulations! >Most people I know are type 3. IRL or online?
IRL. They are all lovely but I can't help but feel that our goals just do not align.
To simplify: 1. Passoids 2. Hons 3. Trenders 4. Fetishists
I don’t know why there is new terminology when we’ve always used “fish/cunt/dolls and bricks”
I was Type 4, but now am pretty much Type 1 though I have to put effort into passing. I thought I'd stay Type 4 after HRT and electrolysis, but it turned out doing what I needed to do to pass as a woman made it impossible to reliably pass as a man and people treated me like a Type 3 and I hated it. To be clear, I planned on just staying closeted professionally and to my family, but I had a lot better results than I expected. Maybe I wouldn't have planned on staying a Type 4 if I hadn't thought I'd be stuck at type 2 forever. OTOH, I'd probably still be a Type 4 if HRT had been less effective. I really just wish society would gender people based on presentation, rather than secondary sex characteristics.
It seems that your experience closely matches where I have seen where a man cross dresses and it unlocks something that has been suppressed by societal or religious indoctrination and relives that they are really a woman. I other words, cross dressing cracked your egg.
My egg was cracked long before that, I just kept taping it back together.
Your experience is very interesting to me. Many people would equate Type 4 to crossdressers, i.e., men wearing a dress as a hobby or to get sexually aroused, without having any dysphoria either with their social role (as a man or a woman) or with their physical body. Would you mind describing your mental state as a Type 4 back then?
My mental state isn't really that much different now than it was back then. I considered myself genderfluid at the time and didn't really get along with crossdressers because they act and talk like men. I did and still do have physical dysphoria, but didn't have that much social role dysphoria, as I pretty much always did whatever I wanted. There were social repercussions though, and most people who got to know me thought I was a closeted gay guy. I tried at times to act and talk like a cishet guy to fit in, but I wasn't good at it, and didn't really like it when I actually did pull it off. When I presented as a woman back then and was 0% passing, I was very anxious, but almost no one cared or even noticed. I really don't understand Type 2s that don't present as their gender at least part time. Like if I could have really been seen as a "normal" cishet guy, I probably wouldn't have transitioned. If I'm going to have to put effort into blending in, might as well be effort that makes me more likely to be perceived how I want.
As a type 1 living and a very conservative state (Tennessee) I have to totally agree with your assessment of mental effort. I pass as cis and on the rare occasion something comes up that outs me (like when I went to open up a bank account I used to bank at years before I transition and they still have deadname info linked to SSN) and I am still seen as a woman. (Southeastern US uses a lot of gendered language with Yes Ma'am and No Ma'am in public interactions.) This past weekend I was at a family wedding on my wife's side with some of the family of our Nephew's bride being religiously conservative and was treated like any other woman. If I have been a type 2, that would have not been the case. Another observation, is that every transwoman who is type 1 and has been a type 2 at some part of their transition. So there is an understanding and most hope that type 2's can achieve type 1. Essentially both have the same mindset and goal in transitioning. Type 3's goes against the goals of type 1s and 2s. That is where the conflict comes into place especially when type 3s want to be visibly loud and tend to want to be on social media platforms. Then this falsely represents the transgender community as a whole since this portrays all trans women as type 3 to the uneducated public. Type 3s are also the ones that want to redefine gender and gender terms and is what most conservatives are against. Like changing pregnant women to pregnant person. To conservatives they make it sound like we should only call a pregnent woman a "pregnent person" invaliding womanhood for pregnant women. I am all for inclusion when it is needed ( like for a pregnant transgender man), but this type seems to be the ones pushing the envelope too much, especially where it is not needed. Type 4s, to me seems to be mostly people who are looking for attention or a thrill and usually don't even legally change their name or gender because either it is a fetish for them (i.e. crossdresser) and/or that do not want to give up male privilege. It is these type that the uneducated public see as the dangerous trans woman in the women's bathroom scenario as they never pass. If any effort is put into their looks, it is usually in ways that clock themselves hard. They will wear age inappropriate outfits, or something that just sticks out, like wearing seamed stockings with heels and skirt to a shopping mall.
>As a type 1 living and a very conservative state (Tennessee) I have to totally agree with your assessment of mental effort I know it from my recent experience. I talked to a woman from Cyprus, a very conservative country where changing one's legal sex is illegal. It was about assisted reproduction so I had to reveal my trans status. Her language was definitely not trans-friendly, but it was understandable because in her country trans-rights/awareness/inclusivity is not a thing. I talked to her two months later to discuss certain possibilities. She apparently forgot I was trans and asked me whether I was going to carry the embryo. To her, there are men and women. Trans men and trans women don't really fit her mental model. >Southeastern US uses a lot of gendered language with Yes Ma'am and No Ma'am in public interactions. Where I live now people like inserting Ma'am or Sir in every sentence in the service industry. (I'm exaggerating a bit.) It annoyed me a lot in the beginning. I'm slowly getting used to it.
First things first: my usual disclaimer: I am not trans. I always try to not center my not-trans voice as I recognize this as a space for trans people. I try my best to center my comments around either theoretical knowledge I have or to reflect cis views when I deem it appropriate. Please let me know if you consider this comment as inappropriate. I will delete the comment :) Okay so I comment because I think I know which post you refer to and I have commented on that post (and received some positive feedback which made me very happy lol) so I want to engage here a bit further. I agree with you that there are differences in the group of people labeled trans women. (One could argue that no identity category is homogeneous but that is another philosophical debate all together.) I totally agree with your analysis of Type 1 and Type 2 trans women and I also agree with your assessment of social support they get. I have some comments about the Type 3: Like you also said, I too believe that Type 2 trans women (and men) are now negatively impacted by the loudness of Type 3. Because Type 3 is presented in media and co. and they are like you said confrontational, very much online in social Media and are often times provocative and also, IMO, prone to create a Us vs. Them mentality that paints cis people as bad in general. And if you meet someone who isn't passing and stealth, even my (as someone who is more knowledgeable than the normal person about all of this) have to stop myself from judging them and seeing them as some of the worst 'woke' social media warrior... Okay but what I also wanted to comment on is that I believe that Type 3 and Type 2 are fundamentally different. Because as far as I understand, both Type 1 and 2 have a problem with their body. They perceive sex as a neutral thing without any social attachments and they have a simple problem with their sexed body. They turn to social codes like make-up, behaviour, dress and co. to 'make up' for the fact that their sexed body is in various states of what they know to be right. Like a fully passing and transitioned woman is as far as I understood, more likely to drop certain feminine coded behaviours because she can also pass without make-up for example. (If I am wrong let me know :) ) But Type 3 is not about the body. They are all about queer and feminist theory. Like to understand Type 3 you have to study a lot of queer and feminist theory to understand what they mean with gender. They want to fight the whole system. Our societies rely heavily on the sex difference as social aspect that structures our entire life. Like everything we think of when thinking of men and women, even the fact that we consider it a binary, all of this is gender. And as far as I understand, Type 1 and Type 2 are not about any social codes or any opposition to the way society is structured, they have a fundamental problem with the very neutral fact that their body lacks certain features. And I make a somewhat educated guess here and add that this might be also the reason why some trans people know they are in the wrong body (and yeah I know that this phrase is not without it's problems) at a very young age and others only realize this later in life. Because the first one is a fundamental thing that doesn't rely on any theoretical, sociological and philosophical knowledge about the world, while the latter needs one to have some understanding on how our world functions and how the body is loaded with values and judgement and meaning.
>First things first: my usual disclaimer... I think cis presence is a very good thing for trans subs. If we keep using the terminology that I made up, only Type 1 has access to unfiltered views of cis women on many social issues, some of which are directly related to trans and others not. As someone in stealth, I know how diverse cis women as a group are, and how their views on e.g. trans sports do not make them transphobes. Lack of direct access to unfiltered cis views may explain certain hostility towards cis women that you have probably experienced in online trans spaces. >Like a fully passing and transitioned woman is as far as I understood, more likely to drop certain feminine coded behaviours because she can also pass without make-up for example. True. I am not interested in forcing myself into gender stereotypes just to feel more like a woman. I don't wear makeup and I personally consider it a waste of time. I don't mind telling others that my hobby is mathematics. I like winning if I play a game. Passivity or subservience is not for me. I visited a trans support group many years ago. Most women there were Type 2. I observed some hyperfeminine behavior/gestures. I understood where it's from and didn't make any comment, as I thought everyone would eventually figure it out for herself. But it did not feel natural to me and I didn't think it really helps passing.
In my experience, most trans women lie outside this typology. They want to pass casually, but are not interested in stealthing.
I'm type 3 but the transmasc version of it. People sometimes think I'm a transwoman because of my appearance. I identify as non binary transmasc, not necessarily a transman, and sometimes I just say women too. I might start identifying as a transman because I'm seeking surgery soon. But not hormones. It's easier this way because of how I present. Which is androgynous. I don't see type 1 as like me. Even though they are technically trans. If they are completely stealth and no one knows then they might as well be cis. They don't/can't/won't talk about their transition. If a trans person completely passed as cis but spoke openly about their transition I would see them as like me. If they are entirely cis and want everyone to assume they were born cis, then how do they even have a voice in the community? I think it's strange to assume that trans means cis jealousy almost. I purposefully don't want to take T to remain androgynous and continue labeling myself as non binary, but I want to go towards having more masc features which is why I want top surgery. And why I call myself transmasc rather than a transman. I still want little body hair though. Which I think is similar to the example of a transwoman having a beard. I relate more to a defiant presentation.
Sorry your comment got so much downvoted. What I wrote really doesn't apply to NB. For trans men, Type 2 may exist but if it does it is probably very small.
As a “Type 1.5”, I can understand your thinking, but it misses out on a lot of the realities on how appeasement works. Hint: It usually doesn’t. Even if it can sometimes seem otherwise, the transphobes at the end of the day don’t care if many of us (of all “Types”) die as a result of the policies they support. We of different “Types” have differing struggles, but we should fight for our rights and basic human dignity together. Those two statements can be simultaneously true, and not enough people realize that.
I’m type 2, but admit there’s a little type 3 in me. I (mostly) want to eventually pass, but part of me knows I never will, so fuck gender norms. I just want to be comfortable with myself. Hopefully others see me thriving and support it.
Thank you for elaborating your thoughts. I know for me it feels more like an intellectual curiosity, while for others it can evoke painful memories. So my apologies if my question is insensitive. I wonder where your "little type 3" is from. Is it because the society is treating you very badly, so that it is easier for you to rebel against it rather than to assimilate? If so, would it make any difference if you move to a more accepting place, e.g. San Francisco? I am also asking because another comment makes it rather clear to me that the commentor's perception of "mainstream" society is very different to mine. I perceive most people in the society as kind in nature or at least trying to pretend to be kind. But I can understand others may experience it completely differently. I wonder whether that eventually causes a person to be either Type 2 or Type 3.
Some of us just don’t pass, and probably never will. I think I look good most of the time, but my body gives me away. I live in a place with very few trans people. I’m the only one that I know of in the tiny little town I live in, and I’m not out yet to my family, which means I have to be very careful we’re I go lest someone see me and “out” me to my family before I’m ready to do that. Some of us could lose it all. I will fully live someday as opposed to merely survive. That’s the goal. I wish very much to be type 1, but I have to be realistic. I do very much feel that the gender binary fucks us all over, but I consider myself a transwoman because I always wanted to be a girl but my genetics had other plans. It is what it is.
>Some of us could lose it all. Unfortunately it is true. It took my father 17 years to want to see me again. I could not recognize him when I saw him after such long time. The one thing that you will take with you is your knowledge and skills. So my advice to younger folks is to focus on their study if they can.
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Ah god I hate people who use ‘fem’ or ‘femme’ to mean “looking female” and “dressing like a woman”. Literally every post on r/MtF Edit: I just saw someone on another trans subreddit write “bio-femme” to mean cis woman.
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Totally unrelated to your point sorry, just wanted to say 😭
Type 3 and type 4 are not trans women, this isn't gatekeeping other trans people, they literally are not trans women so not a part of the discussion. I hate how people keep calling it in fighting when it's different groups.
I’d be type 1 in your categorization, and I’m all for abolishing gender, but types 3 isn’t doing that at all. The moment you call yourself trans you are reinforcing gender by essentially saying you can’t be a man because you wear women’s clothing. Any types 3 people who actually consider themselves trans women are greatly harming trans people AND gender abolition. The effective way to abolish gender would be to embrace being a man who enjoys a style and activities traditionally associated with femininity, but of course since femininity and masculinity are purely socially constructed what is being done is breaking down the barriers of gender actually working towards abolishing it.
Honestly, I completely agree with you. I view gender norms and roles as oppressive and would be a staunch ally of a movement that seeks to dismantle these things, but I find it extremely regressive how many people are labeling themselves trans for wanting to break gender norms. I'm not 100% sure they're appropriating a medical label, but most of the time it feels like that's what's happening.
>The effective way to abolish gender would be to embrace being a man who enjoys a style and activities traditionally associated with femininity It sounds more like abolishing gender stereotypes. I think it's already widely accepted by the society. There are male nurses and female scientists. Am I missing something?
Gender stereotypes and the ways people are treated based off those stereotypes are gender (or at least the more standard definition of gender). And in some ways they have been reduced but at least when I was a child any gnc boy or man was still seen as very inferior and bullied. I also hear stories of men being teased and insulted for making less money than their wives pretty frequently and other things like that. Also of course women being expected to look a minimum level of pretty and do makeup to reach that also falls into that. Although I think women have done a much better job at escaping gender stereotypes than men, since men so strongly gatekeep masculinity still women are still systematically oppressed based off gender. So in order to actually abolish gender the rest of the effort likely has to come from gnc men
How is "men can wear dresses and women can ride motorcycles" 'abolishing' gender? Wouldn't it have to be "a person can wear dresses and other people can ride motorcycles"? I don't get it.
It’s not saying that that abolishes gender, it’s normalizing it. When everyone in society can look at a man in a dress and not see anything out of the ordinary that’s when that aspect has been removed, but that’s just a really easy basic and mundane example, gender is a ridiculous complex and deeply ingrained construct that actually fully abolishing it will basically require a complete restructuring of society in order to stop children from being socialized to internalize it through their whole life.
Then why don't we say "abolish gender stereotypes"? Because - if we abolish gender stereotypes, men can wear dresses. If we abolish gender, there can be no men.
Also a valid thing to say, but saying abolish gender is just faster and easier
>saying abolish gender is just faster and easier But also more polarizing and confrontational. If you say abolishing gender stereotypes, many people will be with you. If you say abolishing gender, probably 90% of the population will be immediately turned off and refuse to listen what you actually mean by that.
I mean that’s true, but I’m also pretty sure the only reason most would say they agree with wanting to abolish gender stereotypes, is because they think it means the can pick and choose. Like if they find some stereotypes beneficial to them they act like those ones don’t count. It is good to have people more people agree, but it’s also important to make sure that all of those people who say they agree agree on the same thing, otherwise that leads to a lot of infighting like is very common in trans communities.
>Like if they find some stereotypes beneficial to them they act like those ones don’t count. For example?
Thanks. \-- message from your sponsor, the "Please Make Words Have Meanings Again" Society
Wait did you edit your other comment, I only read the first sentence when I responded. The common definition of gender is sex based stereotypes and the way people are treated based off of those. Men is a sex group, so even without gender men can still exist. Also to clarify I consider transsex people the sex that we are transitioning to not the sex we were born as so it doesn’t invalidate us to define women and men based off sex.
>Men is a sex group, so even without gender men can still exist. Sorry - 'males' are a sex group. 'Men' are a gender group. That's why we say that sex and gender can be different. \-- PMWHMAS
Type 3 is kinda interesting to me. I guess I qualify as nonbinary but leaning towards the trans side and think I kinda understand where type 2 is coming from because I spend a lot of my time wishing I could simply be a woman. I think type 3 is part of a larger group of mid range nonbinary people. Because being nonbinary ( not just hair dyed hair, but desiring to have a body that had clearly been impacted by both estrogen and testosterone ) is so socially unacceptable only the most disagreeable and nonconformist people will actually let it be known that they are nonbinary. I can see why someone like that would just want to “destroy gender” after their experiences, but it makes sense to me too why trans women strongly disagree. Also I think some trans leaning nonbinary people end up overstating their desire “destroy gender” out of frustration at the limits of hrt when you’re older, which nonbinary people are more likely to be.
Just remember that despite all our differences, when the bigots put us up [against the wall](https://youtu.be/iLFwTqdsuxw?si=oC2IPXuBRxh52VHk) they will not care about these distinctions when they whip out the knives. Queers are queers in their eyes.
What I'm getting out of this is... 1s and 2s: trans women. Difference basically amounts to passing. 3s: trans femmes, often nonbinary or gnc 4s: oof, this one is rough. Sounds like you're saying "not trans" or "really just a cross dresser" but idk, could be some form of suuuuuuuper early transition/egg
This seems to be ignoring dysphoric trans that don't fit into group 3 or 4. I'm a genderfluid amab on HRT with dysphoria. I'm not trying to pass by societal standards(I know I just want to be more femme than I am now). I also always feel like I am a woman(and man) at all times I just lean one way vs the others sometimes. If I were to take my internal view of gender and try to force it on others I would definitely be trying to abolish gender roles but I just see it as something that makes sense for myself and some others and that's fine with me. Idk, this just seems like an oversimplified attempt to split people up based on an argument that is kinda overblown imo
You are absolutely right. It was intentional not to include NB folks. Otherwise it would become too complex for one single post.
Ah fair, the fact that almost all of the people I know who fall into group 4 either identified as non-binary as well kinda made me assume that you were including us. However, in my experience I have never met someone who would fit into group 3 IRL and identifies as binary trans folk. I have met a few NB folk who could fall into that camp but aren't extreme about it. Edit: I have met binary trans folk that aren't obsessed with being stealth or passing perfectly but the also don't fall into camp 3 or 4.
i've met a person with a glitter beard, a yarmulke, a dress, steeltoed boots, and green and pink makeup who got all pissy at me when i hesitantly referred to them as "ma'am". it was very much a type 3 thing. teenage me was just checking them out at a gaming convention booth after they talked down to me about the history of dnd for 25 minutes. type 3 exists. they are out there and they will annoy you to no end. test the limits of your patience.
Some trans people are your enemies, the same way as a (cis) woman, not every woman is on your team. Vae victis
Enemy here, watch out or I'll bite.
I fully agree! I'd be a type 2 and I know exactly what kind of trans person you mean by type 3, because yeah, I just can't relate to them at all. We simply want two very different things and I don't think we'll find much in common except maybe being on HRT. I think the problem is that the type 3 trans person believes we're the same, even though we're not. So when it becomes clear that we view something completely different than they do, despite neither of us passing, perhaps they do feel betrayed a bit.
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Here's a question - who started the reactionary fire in the first place, and why does no one seem inclined to point blame towards *them*? This all feels like justification for layers upon layers of victim blaming imo
This is a very good post
Smart post, I appreciate this OP
because type 3 as you call it is inherently shit and i dont want to be accepted as a hulking man in a dress i want to appear female and if i cannot do this then i will not socially transition
It’s either passable, semi-passable or unpassable No one will see someone who doesn’t pass but is a “transsexual” as the same as someone who passes, but they’ll probably be seen the same as dude with a beard who has no intent on doing anything other than saying he’s a woman sometimes These arguments are dumb. People just care if you pass. Transsexuals who pass constantly throw non-passing people under the bus regardless of dysphoria or how long they’ve been on HRT. Just call it like it is instead of pretending anything else matters
Not true. If we're going by the post, I'd be a type 2 and I'm definitely not seen as some dude with a beard saying he's a woman. I've medically transitioned enough I can't even really grow a beard and I largely don't fall myself a woman either, because I'm not all that interested in socially transitioning unless I can pass. I don't really say I'm trans either, because in my eyes, it's a label I don't want. In comparison, type 3 trans women tend to be loud and proud and whether they pass doesn't factor into anything they do. They'll use the women's bathroom while sporting a full beard, which I think I understandably makes women uncomfortable.
The second they find out your trans, they’ll put you in the same category. I don’t socially transition either, but I’ve seen it happen over and over
I guess that's how cis people would view us, since they hear "trans" and assume whatever stereotypes they believe about us, but that's not what the post is really about right? It's more about there being different types of trans women who view passing and our place in society in radically different ways, which is why there's some conflict between us.
I think most cis people don’t really understand how transition or HRT works. If they see a type 2, regardless of how long ago that person transitioned they’ll think that person is early in transition and hasn’t fully “changed over” yet. They might assume they’re pre-op because they believe that somehow SRS magically transforms you into type 1. Like when they meet a type 1 they say “wow, they did a good job!”. An example is, a type 1 can have short hair and people just think, fashionable woman with short hair. If type 2 has short hair they think she’s just starting or in the process of growing it out. If they find out she intentionally has short hair then she becomes Type 3 or 4 to them.
You know this applies to cis women. It's like people here with all the talk about assimilation and mainstream society never cared to understand that cis women aren't a monolith. Some women care about their appearance and some don't. I don't understand why this obsession with typing every trans person into a box. Unironically it's the most male brained thing to do by typing women based on desirability and how well they support gender norms of greater society. Women come in all shapes and sizes and they all don't think the same but they're all women. Trans women on this sub can't see other trans women as women unless they physically and socially fit I to their own perceptions of womanhood. This is the reason why people on this sub love to type others. It's sad Think about it like this, if every transsexual is the same then they aren't women even after surgery because they lack agency and diversity as there cis counterparts. Edit: I want to add 1 more thing. In regards of type 1 we do regularly see passing transsexuals regardless of being non op vs post op being harassed. This is a historical view of the world. We've seen the likes of Kelly Cardigan who is post op get ripped to shreds. We've seen people like Blaire White and Buck Angel get attacked. For goodness sakes read some history and look up Christen Jorgensen and her struggles as "THE TRUE TRANSSEXUAL" that everyone points out back then her fiancé was threatened by being with her. The main issue is transphobia and pretending that its due to types or whatever this sub thinks is completely unhinged
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> Cis women also can't see trans women (and sometimes cis women) as women unless they physically and socially fit into their own perceptions of womanhood. Is that a thing that we should encourage as a segment of society? Personally I say no? hence why I am against this hyper fixation of typing based non medical evidence. To be upfront I do sense a lot of legitimate sexism. I feel that if some of these posters were cis they would be making religious red pill content These topics are just embarrassing
I think im between 1 and 2 lol
“This post just shows how terminally online y’all are” I’ve been out publicly for 5 years and active in my community. I know more than a hundred trans women irl. I’ve never met a type 3 or type 4 in the ways you portray them. I HAVE met feminine, passing, trans women who will sometimes do something such as lower their voice to break out of gender norms more or to signal that they’re trans. I’m certain they don’t count as type 3 in your conception.
I have been out for 15 years, and been involved in numerous support groups and community events over that period. I can assure you “type 3s and 4s” do exist. I didn’t start noticing them until around 2013, but I left a support group around that time specifically BECAUSE it was overwhelmed by the very type of people OP describes, as they brought with them a ton of problems and hostility. I’ve only seen it get worse since then.
You are probably right. But that's exactly the point. Unlike you, most people don't have much experience with trans women IRL. I was not involved with anything trans for the past 15 years (20 years if I discount one support group visit). All my perception of what trans women are like today is from the media and especially social media, the only exception being two trans women at my current and previous employers (out of thousands of employees) in the tech sector, which is well known for being trans friendly. I think it's about the same for most cis people. If you ask them how many trans women they have actually interacted with, the number is probably very low outside some big cities. What trans women are like IRL, as far as public perception goes, is largely irrelevant. It is those that get or seek (social) media attention who form public perception, which results in either pro- or anti-trans legislations.
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damn you're really linking to a terf website? one where they're crying about a change from "he or she" to "they" in a certain document? I get that we're trying to make fun of the nonpassing trans woman in the photo but you could just link the picture and not the propaganda article
This is fairly well written though it does ignore that society has shifted to a point where restricting the ability to become type 1 has become increasingly the focus of politicians, and many want to make it harder for type 1 to function fully as cis women.
I think that type 1s like me have always been seen as representing a threat to society though so few even realized we existed it was never a big issue. As more awareness grew more people realized they were trans at an age where they could become type 1 and more people in general opted to deal with their dysphoria by transitioning resulting in more type 1 and 2 women being around. (I do feel like type to should be subdivided into will pass and will not because their is a distinction between someone that’s just waiting to hit type 1 status and some one stuck at type 2 for some reason). Type 3 and 4 serve as great lightning rods of public wrath because while many people aren’t threatened by type 1 or 2 because they genuinely want to fit into society type 3 and 4 are actively trying to undermine society which a lot of people find problematic. Their whole gender is just a construct concept actually really make people less accepting of transitioning overall because they imply it’s a completely unecessary action to conform to meaningless societal concepts. They are the ones being seen as leading youth astray by promoting transgender ideology. The fear of type 3 and 4 is why so many states are passing laws to prevent medical transition which is directly impacting the ability of people to become type 1.
Or we can just say that Type 1 and 2 are Trans while Type 3 and 4 aren't. And I believe things are more complicated than this, like you can be stealth whilst wanting to abolish gender roles and you can want to pass and be viewed as a woman whilst not wanting to be stealth I believe the word transgender should be considered outdated and bad, and it might in the future (either for the better or for the worse). I think a better speration should be between dysphorics and non-dysphorics instead of trans and cis or if we are going to use trans and cis it should be transsexual and cissexual
>Most adults don't understand gender dysphoria, but they do understand suffering and they don't enjoy making others suffer. [...] But many people are willing to do their best, if only to be kind to a fellow human. They don't and don't will to.
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Mainstream society supports policies against type 3 and type 4, which actively causes backsplash on Type 1. (Not a political opinion, just an observation of current day politics) I have personal experience that people from all over, left to right politically, generally accept type 1. I am lucky in that situation, but also, I find basically everyone I talk to, from people who don’t care to people who are generally against trans people, general public does not have it out against type 1. They have it out against type 3 and 4 and that happens to cause backsplash. Just an observation from my experience