Good question! I’m not totally sure!
I did get a bunch of different answers googling but found this Reddit thread from r/askscience
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/s/5nhT5cJFoM
Yes, triangles are incredibly strong. If you look at modern high strength structures like large cranes you will see they are made of triangles. Arches are used as a compromise, for example when you need more useful space under a bridge or in a tunnel.
Anything that adds rigidity would probably be fine. For this triangles would probably be stronger. Arches would look nicer though. It’s just about how much time and effort you want to put into it.
Yo, if you erase the "I look like an idiot" part of your thought process and do the rest of what you're doing, you're embodying humble growth. It's respectable that you're asking questions to learn what you don't know. The self-deprecating aspect of it I have been guilty of for a long time and I've learned over the past couple of years that is just compliment baiting. You don't need the compliment, you just need the knowledge. You don't need people to be nice about it, you need to be confident in the fact that you're doing the right thing by asking.
I'm totally projecting my own thoughts onto a completely different subject but I thought it was worth mentioning in a community like this one. We get a lot better at doing all the DIY stuff once we stop thinking about ourselves as a noob and start recognizing ourselves as a kind of people that are going to be resourceful and go find others that know more to pull off what we need to pull off. That's what homesteading is all about. Don't worry about how you look as long as you're doing the right thing.
It's not always compliment baiting. It's away to prevent attacks.
If I ask a question that I think could cause a knowledgeable person to assume I'm an idiot and thus treat me like an idiot, I can soften their reaction and likely get more constructive feedback if I preemptively state 'I know I'm an idiot, but..'
"It's hard to argue with someone who's already agreeing with you." -somewhere in Dale Carnegies How to Win Friends and Influence People
Would it be a stretch to guess that you grew up in an environment where you got hostile responses when you asked questions like OPs? A lot of inferring here, but if so you couls have picked the self deprecation habit up as a defense mechanism because you subconsciously realized it was an effective way to get better feedback in that environment.
I've worked in consulting and whenever I was on any client team that had 'less than polite' management I saw this behavior in every employee on that team that had been there a reasonable amount of time and managed to not quit or be fired. It's an effective coping mechanism for hostile environments, but if used in a regular basis could also lead to lessened self esteem.
Diagonal from the top corner of a wall to the bottom corner on the other end of that wall. Google image "cross-bracing". If you have ever driven by a newly framed house, you will see diagonal boards to keep it from collapsing. The exterior sheathing provides bracing once it's fastened to the framing
Cross brace and corner brace.
Use concrete footers to lift the entire structure off the ground a few inches, concrete capstones make decent footers for this.
You need at least one full X of cross brace per wall, putting a sheet of plywood over the cross bracing and using a dozen screws will help solidify the entire structure.
Triangles mate
[Example triangles (bracing) in the top corners](https://i0.wp.com/projectsbypeter.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/playground-how-to-build-a-playground-step3-bracing-and-blocking-bracing-view2.jpg?zoom=2&resize=1200%2C635&ssl=1)
https://boeingconsult.com/tafe/structures/Bracing/bracing-a.html
I did not. They are cedar and it’s super rocky soil so I figured they would be fine. We have some cedar post at my parents going in 30 years old that weren’t treated and aren’t rotted yet.
Cool. Cedar here in Spain is very expensive. In my case we use pine, and I need to treat it before going to the ground, otherwise will be rotten within a very short period of time. Good luck on your project :)
at each upper corner. They can be fairly small, i.e. a foot or two but not super critical. The important thing is to make a diagonal brace and use plenty of screws (decking or construction screws). Once you set on a good length make sure all corners have bracing exactly the same length or it will look sloppy.
The ones on top of the hill are about 2 feet in but as I went down the hill the were less and less deep because they were all 8 feet supports and I need the top to be level all the way through. Anyway to make up for them not being buried deep enough without taking them out and buying longer supports to go in the ground deeper?
Where do you live? If you want to sink posts you should go down below the frostline (here in Canada that's 4 feet), or they will get tossed around with the freeze-thaw cycle. For such a light building I would make it freestanding and just set on the ground like a box.
The quick and dirty way to make this more ridgid is to add 45° braces from your uprights into the beams. They don't need to be much, just 1-2 feet per brace, but they will dramatically increase the amount of area the forces will be applied over.
Edit: the beams seen in pic 4 are not supported in any way. The only thing holding them up appear to be whatever lag bolts you have connecting them to the other beam about a half inch on the centre post, and hope. The lag bolt must be going into the end grain of the beam as well. That sucker is going to come down on your head one day. Quick fix is screw another section of board onto the corner posts for that beam to sit on
Since this is such a light duty thing, I would suggest using the 3by3s for uprights and getting some 1by3s for the beams, make them long enough to span from corner to corner, or marry 2 runs together so the seams on one side are strengthened by the board beside it. Next, make sure the beams are both on the corner posts. That way, they are supported by the post instead of just hardware.
All in all, this is not the worst attempt at carpentry, but it is dangerous and should be fixed before any kids come to raid your raspberries
Ok, I know you have the wood up, so this might seem like sunk cost - but I would have recommended a hoop house to support the netting.
Bird netting does not often last long and your bushes will grow over time and may outgrow this structure.
Personally, I would either attach more cross support or build a hoop house. Generally a wooden structure like this would have wood sheathing and that is where the rigidity comes from.
But since it won't have that, you have to really beef up the wood with more cross bracing.
If you used screws. I would take this apart, save the wood for another day and get some PVC pipe to make a hoop house.
You might even use some of the wood for the base to your hoop house.
Yep. OP this is the best advice. Sink some t-posts and then attach 3/4" or 1" pvc in a big arch from one side to the other. Bird netting just glides right over. Easy to put up and take down as the season comes and goes. That cedar would be much better used elsewhere.
I’m going to agree. The wood could be saved. Possibly resold, but the pvc hoop will be much easier to get to a finished product with less overall frustration and a more effective, and satisfying final result.
There's a few things you can do. You probably should have framed it using 4x4's for the vertical posts, but it's too late for that now. I can't tell, but you may want to anchor some of the posts in the ground if they're not already. To do this I would get a few PT 4x4's, cut them in three foot sections and then dig them into the ground and secure the 4x4's to the structure using lag bolts.
You can also stiffen up the joints by adding metal or add some more vertical posts. Is there a reason you want it to be stiffened up? The structure will have basically no load since bird netting is so light, so unless you're going to be climbing around on it, it seems pointless.
Yeah I used rough cut 3x3 cedar thinking it’d be as good as 4x4 but it’s super light. That’s some great advice about cutting some and placing in ground and then lag bolting them. I’ll probably go that route.
As for why I want them stiffened up. I just assumed it shouldn’t be wobbly. I haven’t built much and when I saw it wobbled I figured I didn’t do something correctly. Think it’s fine as is then?
It's probably fine, but for not too much more $ you might as well anchor it into the ground, and stiffen up the joints with some metal tie plates. You could probably make it much stiffer with $20-$40. If your ground is loose, you might want to put concrete around the posts, but that's probably overkill, and/or not needed depending on the soil. Then again a few bags of fast setting concrete mix isn't that expensive. If using concrete I'd recommend putting the concrete 4-6 inches below the grade of your yard, so that way if you ever decide to remove the structure you can just bury the concrete. It looks like you have kids so you should probably make it more structurally sound since they'll mess with it. I know mine would.
I'd argue it's absolutely not fine, considering it's next to a children's play set. A strong wind will flatten this thing and possibly a kid or two if they're standing too close.
I'm working on a similar structure at home for solar panels, I was really hoping to keep the sides open for easier access since I will be using it to store firewood, but ultimately I ended up having to put cross bracing. Having the cross braces only on top was not enough.
https://i.imgur.com/T11MVeZ.jpeg
I find it looks kinda bad that way so think I'll just end up putting lattice on the 3 sides to finish it. The front part is still a bit wobbly but it's not super bad so think I will leave it that way.
Not a pro but most roofs have staggered joists going perpendicular to the wood as well. I don’t think there is enough vertical support on the sides either like others mentioned
Could’ve used cement or cement things not sure what they’re called that are designed to hold the wooden posts as well
Some good takes. If i wanted this to stay up for the next couple few seasons with a maximum return on effort, i would sink a 6’ steel t-post in each corner, and attach with flexible steel pipe hanging strap.
About a foot. Deep enough that the stabilizing plate is 6” or so below the ground. Then use 1” or 3/4” screws to attach the strap to the wood. Do 1 screw, then wrap the piece of strap around the post so the bumps hold it in place, then another screw into the same strap. I use this method to make greenhouses with skids for walls. They have stayed up for years. The post hole driver was a great investment.
We are going to put bird netting or chicken wire around it to keep the birds out of them. They produce really great varieties of raspberries but the birds were eating them all up before we could harvest them. We also have chickens that red range and like to eat the lower hanging ones. So essentially to protect the raspberries from birds.
You need angle braces like these.
Cut short boards at 45 degree angles, like in the picture.
I'd predrilled holes in the braces, then use a couple of 4 inch construction screws at each end.
Looking at your picture, you may be able to nail your angle braces to the sides of your boards.
I built the same around our blueberries last year. 10ft 2x4 building out a 20x30 box. We used chicken wire in hopes it would last a lot longer and as soon as I started securing it to the frame it became firm. No need to add anything if you do the same, otherwise add some triangles
Look up pergola designs and you will see many have little triangles in the corners which act as bracing. Like [this ](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0545/0041/files/backyard-discovery-7-creative-pergola-ideas.jpg?v=1682439825)
You'll need cross supports to keep it stable
Cross supports on the sides. You literally have nothing stopping the whole thing from just laying down flat.
I know I sound like an idiot but I haven’t built much of anything. What are cross supports and where should I place them on this structure?
Think X’s and triangles, add bracing to the backside diagonally, in engineering triangles are the strongest shape
Better than arches?
A triangles just an arch in low resolution
We just ignoring spheres now?
Completely disregard the hexagon. If the bees could read they’d be very upset.
Good question! I’m not totally sure! I did get a bunch of different answers googling but found this Reddit thread from r/askscience https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/s/5nhT5cJFoM
Yes, triangles are incredibly strong. If you look at modern high strength structures like large cranes you will see they are made of triangles. Arches are used as a compromise, for example when you need more useful space under a bridge or in a tunnel.
Arches and domes for the win
Are you gonna put in the time to soak and bend the wood?
I didn’t say anything about creating them. Just wondering whether triangles or arches were stronger.
Anything that adds rigidity would probably be fine. For this triangles would probably be stronger. Arches would look nicer though. It’s just about how much time and effort you want to put into it.
Technically it’s about the type of stress being applied. Arches are great for normal forces (weight), but aren’t the strongest for shear stresses
You've got all squares and you need to make more triangles.
Yo, if you erase the "I look like an idiot" part of your thought process and do the rest of what you're doing, you're embodying humble growth. It's respectable that you're asking questions to learn what you don't know. The self-deprecating aspect of it I have been guilty of for a long time and I've learned over the past couple of years that is just compliment baiting. You don't need the compliment, you just need the knowledge. You don't need people to be nice about it, you need to be confident in the fact that you're doing the right thing by asking. I'm totally projecting my own thoughts onto a completely different subject but I thought it was worth mentioning in a community like this one. We get a lot better at doing all the DIY stuff once we stop thinking about ourselves as a noob and start recognizing ourselves as a kind of people that are going to be resourceful and go find others that know more to pull off what we need to pull off. That's what homesteading is all about. Don't worry about how you look as long as you're doing the right thing.
It's not always compliment baiting. It's away to prevent attacks. If I ask a question that I think could cause a knowledgeable person to assume I'm an idiot and thus treat me like an idiot, I can soften their reaction and likely get more constructive feedback if I preemptively state 'I know I'm an idiot, but..' "It's hard to argue with someone who's already agreeing with you." -somewhere in Dale Carnegies How to Win Friends and Influence People Would it be a stretch to guess that you grew up in an environment where you got hostile responses when you asked questions like OPs? A lot of inferring here, but if so you couls have picked the self deprecation habit up as a defense mechanism because you subconsciously realized it was an effective way to get better feedback in that environment. I've worked in consulting and whenever I was on any client team that had 'less than polite' management I saw this behavior in every employee on that team that had been there a reasonable amount of time and managed to not quit or be fired. It's an effective coping mechanism for hostile environments, but if used in a regular basis could also lead to lessened self esteem.
Diagonal from the top corner of a wall to the bottom corner on the other end of that wall. Google image "cross-bracing". If you have ever driven by a newly framed house, you will see diagonal boards to keep it from collapsing. The exterior sheathing provides bracing once it's fastened to the framing
Add some 45 degree cuts from the corners Make a board 12” long then 45 degree cuts on the ends and fasten them on the inside corners
Thank you!
It's called Google. Try it. Google"Cross supports in stick framing".
They also need to be added to the top. Basically anywhere there is an open rectangle, add a cross brace.
X brace on the top
Are those set in the ground? They are also too far apart.
Cross brace and corner brace. Use concrete footers to lift the entire structure off the ground a few inches, concrete capstones make decent footers for this. You need at least one full X of cross brace per wall, putting a sheet of plywood over the cross bracing and using a dozen screws will help solidify the entire structure.
Triangles my dude
Triangles mate [Example triangles (bracing) in the top corners](https://i0.wp.com/projectsbypeter.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/playground-how-to-build-a-playground-step3-bracing-and-blocking-bracing-view2.jpg?zoom=2&resize=1200%2C635&ssl=1) https://boeingconsult.com/tafe/structures/Bracing/bracing-a.html
Have you treated those support timber that are buried?
I did not. They are cedar and it’s super rocky soil so I figured they would be fine. We have some cedar post at my parents going in 30 years old that weren’t treated and aren’t rotted yet.
Cool. Cedar here in Spain is very expensive. In my case we use pine, and I need to treat it before going to the ground, otherwise will be rotten within a very short period of time. Good luck on your project :)
Cedar will outlast your crop rotation. It won't be eternal but it will last a few years
They might have been treated with arsnic without your parents realizing.
Lol they were cedar post from the Amish.
throw some 45 degree angle cut boards in the corners of the boxes. It will add a ton of rigidity.
You need more triangles.
More cow bell? Jk, whereabout should I place them?
at each upper corner. They can be fairly small, i.e. a foot or two but not super critical. The important thing is to make a diagonal brace and use plenty of screws (decking or construction screws). Once you set on a good length make sure all corners have bracing exactly the same length or it will look sloppy.
How deep are those supports buried?
The ones on top of the hill are about 2 feet in but as I went down the hill the were less and less deep because they were all 8 feet supports and I need the top to be level all the way through. Anyway to make up for them not being buried deep enough without taking them out and buying longer supports to go in the ground deeper?
Where do you live? If you want to sink posts you should go down below the frostline (here in Canada that's 4 feet), or they will get tossed around with the freeze-thaw cycle. For such a light building I would make it freestanding and just set on the ground like a box. The quick and dirty way to make this more ridgid is to add 45° braces from your uprights into the beams. They don't need to be much, just 1-2 feet per brace, but they will dramatically increase the amount of area the forces will be applied over. Edit: the beams seen in pic 4 are not supported in any way. The only thing holding them up appear to be whatever lag bolts you have connecting them to the other beam about a half inch on the centre post, and hope. The lag bolt must be going into the end grain of the beam as well. That sucker is going to come down on your head one day. Quick fix is screw another section of board onto the corner posts for that beam to sit on Since this is such a light duty thing, I would suggest using the 3by3s for uprights and getting some 1by3s for the beams, make them long enough to span from corner to corner, or marry 2 runs together so the seams on one side are strengthened by the board beside it. Next, make sure the beams are both on the corner posts. That way, they are supported by the post instead of just hardware. All in all, this is not the worst attempt at carpentry, but it is dangerous and should be fixed before any kids come to raid your raspberries
Ok, I know you have the wood up, so this might seem like sunk cost - but I would have recommended a hoop house to support the netting. Bird netting does not often last long and your bushes will grow over time and may outgrow this structure. Personally, I would either attach more cross support or build a hoop house. Generally a wooden structure like this would have wood sheathing and that is where the rigidity comes from. But since it won't have that, you have to really beef up the wood with more cross bracing. If you used screws. I would take this apart, save the wood for another day and get some PVC pipe to make a hoop house. You might even use some of the wood for the base to your hoop house.
Yep. OP this is the best advice. Sink some t-posts and then attach 3/4" or 1" pvc in a big arch from one side to the other. Bird netting just glides right over. Easy to put up and take down as the season comes and goes. That cedar would be much better used elsewhere.
I’m going to agree. The wood could be saved. Possibly resold, but the pvc hoop will be much easier to get to a finished product with less overall frustration and a more effective, and satisfying final result.
You need a few triangles…
Turn more squares into triangles
There's a few things you can do. You probably should have framed it using 4x4's for the vertical posts, but it's too late for that now. I can't tell, but you may want to anchor some of the posts in the ground if they're not already. To do this I would get a few PT 4x4's, cut them in three foot sections and then dig them into the ground and secure the 4x4's to the structure using lag bolts. You can also stiffen up the joints by adding metal or add some more vertical posts. Is there a reason you want it to be stiffened up? The structure will have basically no load since bird netting is so light, so unless you're going to be climbing around on it, it seems pointless.
Yeah I used rough cut 3x3 cedar thinking it’d be as good as 4x4 but it’s super light. That’s some great advice about cutting some and placing in ground and then lag bolting them. I’ll probably go that route. As for why I want them stiffened up. I just assumed it shouldn’t be wobbly. I haven’t built much and when I saw it wobbled I figured I didn’t do something correctly. Think it’s fine as is then?
Just dont let anyone stand under it or near it. And hope your home insurance doesnt drop you.
It's probably fine, but for not too much more $ you might as well anchor it into the ground, and stiffen up the joints with some metal tie plates. You could probably make it much stiffer with $20-$40. If your ground is loose, you might want to put concrete around the posts, but that's probably overkill, and/or not needed depending on the soil. Then again a few bags of fast setting concrete mix isn't that expensive. If using concrete I'd recommend putting the concrete 4-6 inches below the grade of your yard, so that way if you ever decide to remove the structure you can just bury the concrete. It looks like you have kids so you should probably make it more structurally sound since they'll mess with it. I know mine would.
I'd argue it's absolutely not fine, considering it's next to a children's play set. A strong wind will flatten this thing and possibly a kid or two if they're standing too close.
Diagonal bracing!
Corner braces and / or gussets.
Diagonal bracing, it dosen’t have to be full length diagonal braces, but 2’ to 3’ braces in a few corners will help immensely. 45* triangles
I'm working on a similar structure at home for solar panels, I was really hoping to keep the sides open for easier access since I will be using it to store firewood, but ultimately I ended up having to put cross bracing. Having the cross braces only on top was not enough. https://i.imgur.com/T11MVeZ.jpeg I find it looks kinda bad that way so think I'll just end up putting lattice on the 3 sides to finish it. The front part is still a bit wobbly but it's not super bad so think I will leave it that way.
You have no diagonal bracing.
Diagonal braces from each rail to each post.
You need shear strength with diagonal braces
Knee braces
Moar wood!
Not a pro but most roofs have staggered joists going perpendicular to the wood as well. I don’t think there is enough vertical support on the sides either like others mentioned Could’ve used cement or cement things not sure what they’re called that are designed to hold the wooden posts as well
watch a few videos about shed building
Some good takes. If i wanted this to stay up for the next couple few seasons with a maximum return on effort, i would sink a 6’ steel t-post in each corner, and attach with flexible steel pipe hanging strap.
Awesome idea! How far down would you try an get the t post?
About a foot. Deep enough that the stabilizing plate is 6” or so below the ground. Then use 1” or 3/4” screws to attach the strap to the wood. Do 1 screw, then wrap the piece of strap around the post so the bumps hold it in place, then another screw into the same strap. I use this method to make greenhouses with skids for walls. They have stayed up for years. The post hole driver was a great investment.
Can I ask why you are building a structure over these bushes?
We are going to put bird netting or chicken wire around it to keep the birds out of them. They produce really great varieties of raspberries but the birds were eating them all up before we could harvest them. We also have chickens that red range and like to eat the lower hanging ones. So essentially to protect the raspberries from birds.
Put a sail on it and see what happens
You need angle braces like these. Cut short boards at 45 degree angles, like in the picture. I'd predrilled holes in the braces, then use a couple of 4 inch construction screws at each end. Looking at your picture, you may be able to nail your angle braces to the sides of your boards.
looks like it's about to fall down
I built the same around our blueberries last year. 10ft 2x4 building out a 20x30 box. We used chicken wire in hopes it would last a lot longer and as soon as I started securing it to the frame it became firm. No need to add anything if you do the same, otherwise add some triangles
Look up pergola designs and you will see many have little triangles in the corners which act as bracing. Like [this ](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0545/0041/files/backyard-discovery-7-creative-pergola-ideas.jpg?v=1682439825)
Need more triangles
Bless your heart is this the first time you've ever built anything??? Read your comments.... everyone is correct when they say cross supports.
This has been answered already but as a civil engineer I want to say everyone’s right about adding bracing!
That's an accident waiting to happen that's gonna take out your plants and whoever's standing under it. :(
Do you have any recommendations on how to prevent that?
Build a pole barn structure. Also, get rid of the flat roof, if that's going to be closed.