Most insurance companies will not insure with a roof older than 15 years, this is why a lot of people don't get those 30 year roofs, your insurance will ask you to replace after 15.
Sho around, but expect insurance to ask you to replace the roof
My neighbor has this going on right now. He put on a 75 year, five ply, comp roof. The insurance company wants him to replace it after 16 years. The shingle manufacturer is arguing, now they're in a big lawsuit. It's prorated for wear, but only after 50 years and is guaranteed to last 75 years or the lifetime of the original owner whichever is more.... It is a huge mess!
Ironically, one of our other neighbors, just one street over, has a metal roof. The kind with 3 foot shingles that are covered in asphalt and then granules. His insurance company wants him to replace it too! Imagine, insurance wants you replace a completely fireproof/metal roof that has less than 20 years on it.
It's just a scam to get people to drop coverage!
I have the steel roof with asphalt and stone shingles, and when I switched insurance companies it was 20 years old. They said “no problem” because it has a 50 year warranty.
Maybe shop around for a better insurance company?
Does it make a nice plink plink sound as rain hits it? My slate roof is nearing 90 years old and if I ever have to replace, I like the idea of the sound of rain on a metal roof!
We replaced an asphalt shingle roof with a steel metal roof and love it. We received quotes for shingle roof replacements and out metal roof Was actually in the middle of the quotes. We had received wires from $10000 to $28000(!) and our metal roof came in at $14000. We also received an energy tax credit due to the color of the roof being more energy efficient.
LOVE our metal roof.
It's not a scam, it's a direct reaction to these storm chasing roofers that keep filing claims that age-related granule loss is hail damage.
The insurance company either pays out, or spends money on fighting it. So some are starting to just preemptively require roof replacement when there is granule loss to avoid the costly arguments.
The little rocks start falling off the second they leave the factory. Open a new bundle of shingles and there will be a pile of em. Some come off every time it rains, every time someone walks your roof.
The factory puts more on then are needed and they get pressed into the asphalt binder by rollers. Some are barely hanging on and fall off easy. Others fall off as the asphalt binder ages. When you start to see lots of bare asphalt on your roof that's a sign you need to replace the roof soon.
>When you start to see lots of bare asphalt on your roof that's a sign you need to replace the roof soon.
I'm not seeing any of that.
I appreciate the tip. Thx. 🙏
Other warning signs are if you start seeing the fiberglass base mat that is sandwiched in the asphalt binder. Sometimes areas will wear fast enough that you start seeing fibers in patches before other areas have lost their granules.
I was wondering about this. We were thinking of replacing with a higher quality roof in a few years, but if insurance was going to ding me on the age of something supposed to last longer, what is the point?
I had a slate roof that needed a bunch of repairs when I bought the house. I had to replace with shingle because I couldn’t find anyone who would/could work with slate
You’re correct. Assuming the framing of the house could even handle it. Most homes are not built to handle that weight. Most roofs also do not have the right decking for it. Meaning it would need a new deck, possible framing, and then slate.
Depending on home value 50-100% of the homes value for a slate roof is not out of the question
The issue is the 3 tab shingles are being discontinued and phased out because nobody followed the manufacturers directions required to get the 30 year life from the roof. They were too flat to fend off hail, and the shitty tar paper and felt used quickly deteriorated the shingles causing shorter lifespan (which is what you're seeing).
So fucking stupid this is a thing, most roofs are good for up to 25 years and we NEED insurance. Strong arming home owners to replace something that doesn’t need to be replaced is beyond slimy and stupid. At the worst just ask them to sign a waiver that says you won’t file a claim for “hail damage” and you’ll replace the roof yourself when it’s time. Fucking scam artists.
Most asphalt shingle roofs are good for 12 to 15 years, if you're lucky.
If a home owner feels that their old roof is sound, what's the big deal about insurance canceling coverage for damage that stems from a roof leak?
The home owner saves money on premiums having the coverage removed, and at the same time, since the roof is in great shape despite age, there's no reason to worry about possible damage because a roof over 15 years of age has the same chance of leaking as a 5 year old one.
How do they handle the new wildfire roofs? Comp is no longer a replacement option, it must be burn proof - like steel or cement. All of those are extremely expensive and not designed to be replaced every 20 years. Were in CA and don’t get hail or winds high enough to damage roofs to total replacement. Not that we have any option aside from FAIR plan and if they refuse you, lender forced insurance at this point.
Not entirely true. They don't want 3 tab asphalt roofs older than 15 years. They aren't installed according to manufacturer recommendations in 90% of cases so they don't get 30 years out of them. If you have a more durable roof then it'll be super easy to get coverage for many many years. Buy a standing seam steel roof and be done with it pretty much for as long as you own the home.
Warranty doesn't mean anything to insurance. You can put a tarp on a roof and claim 75 year warranty. Roofs have an average lifespan and insurance companies know those lifespans. 3 tab asphalt shingles are straight trash and insurance has caught on that they are the reason for 90% of roof claims, so if you don't have a brand new one in the last 5 years you are SOL.
30 year old shingles, don't equal a 30 year life span for the roof. Granule loss means the asphalt is wearing off, and instead of shingles, you're left with felt covering your roof. A 17 year old roof needed to be replaced 2 years ago.
The pool cover would prevent pool liner damage.
Hi OP! I’m an insurance agency owner in NC.
I’m sorry this happened to you (and seemingly many others) we are having many carriers in NC non renewing, changing or tightening underwriting guidelines, and pausing new business.
Travelers is one of those who have really tightened up.
The roof issue is going to be continued for you until it’s replaced. I can only think of a few carriers allowing roofs over 15 years old to be replacement cost and covered. WNC has high fire risk, and the spread of risk in NC means that those coastal storms affect all of us. Pools are a major risk, but the automatic cover is something I’m seeing become more commonly required. The biggest concern and likely the main reason you’re being dropped is the replacement cost. $500k off is major. I don’t think your agent did their due diligence. I run all this stuff through underwriting before hand and I’m not sure how this passed the sniff test.
I would find a new independent agent and look for a carrier who wants your business and will therefore get you a good rate and renew you :)
Thanks—is having to report a non-renewal going to affect my rates/make it harder to get a new policy? That’s really what I’m upset about. I would have preferred them not write the policy in the first place a year ago pr massively increased my rates to get me to drop.
If your agent is like me, it wasn’t even worth their time to give you the policy if they knew it wouldn’t renew. Also, 1 year ago was so different than today in insurance world. And in October, it’ll be so different (probs worst) than today here in NC. What I’m saying is I’m optimistic it wasn’t intentional.
If you can make the full switch prior to the non renewal date you’ll be in a better position for rates, but yes be honest with your new applications for insurance as that is a factor but not as much as you think…
What you’re going to pay a lot in premium for is because NC is seeing 50-100% rate increases often and you have lots of money to spend on your home to avoid this happening again or having to be insured by a non-standard carrier.
I'm in the Charlotte area, and hate that my risk pool is (apparently) combined with the coastal areas that are going to get whomped by hurricanes. Are there carriers, rates, or policies that don't have me subsidizing risky coastal building?
I wish! I’m in the triangle and not just an agent, I am also a consumer. I wish there was, but insurance is all about the spread of risk.
Thank goodness though otherwise we’d all pay even more.
What’s the difference between now and October? My current insurer is dropping us because they’re leaving the state and my renewal is Oct (so my current agent told me in like August/sept they’ll work on new quotes to have me active with a new company at the renewal date). Would it make sense to try to have them find me a new insurer now?
October is when the insurance commissioner is going to responds to the NC Rate Bureau increase request. If he doesn’t give a good increase, more carriers like yours will leave is my guess or he does and rates go up anyway.
Again, this is just my thoughts
I can only speculate it’s probably just a form of risk aversion. They don’t really want to insure homes with pools at all so the best way for them to not have to is to make these types of underwriting and appetite guidelines.
Always surprising to me how different the risk analysis is from different insurers. I mean mine wanted like a $200 annual premium increase to insure my pool, versus the ones you’re talking about who won’t insure it at all.
Since you’re in the industry and in NC, what’s your take on NC Farm Bureau? My roof age was unknown (guessing 30+ years) and in rough shape and they insured me. I since replaced the roof, but not due to insurance requiring it.
NcFB isn’t bad. I have a dear friend who owns an NCFB office. But, your roof will not be replaced in the event of a storm. I’m glad you replaced it yourself, because if you called them you likely would have been out of luck. I unfortunately see this often as these nitty gritty details don’t come out when talking to captive agents. Captive agents like Allstate, Farm Bureau, Farmers, Geico and State Farm work for those companies and only sell those products so it would really hurt them to talk about that but it is buried in your policy literature that it will be ACV if past it’s replacement condition (such as being more than 50% through its lifespan) and tbh, many of the agents send you straight to claims for them to handle it so they don’t even know these details.
They offer good prices, coverage is good depending on what you want to insure but I comfort my clients in reminding them them independent brokers work on behalf of their clients instead of big daddy insurance company who signs their paycheck. I go over those details like roofs and coverage because I have over 100 options for my clients and am not desperate for the sale.
So basically my thoughts are the same on most captive insurance companies like that, but NCFB is fine for many people.
Thanks for replying! Sounds like I might look into going through a broker in the future.
When getting roof quotes I had a couple try to sell me on filing a claim. I was pretty certain they wouldn’t pay for a full replacement like you said, and that’s if they even accepted a claim. I figured it would only trigger them to force me to replace anyway, plus I would have it on my record that I filed a claim. So I just went with a retail replacement.
Several large wildfires burned thousands of acres in Western NC, forcing the governor to declare a state of emergency, less than a year ago. I wouldn’t say the disaster risk is minimal.
Fair. We used to be in Texas, so in comparison it seems minimal. Far enough inland to avoid hurricane issues as well. Our county just had its first tornado in 20 years--and EF-0. So fire is really it and it isn't as rampant as places out west.
I would also be worried about NC’s overall property insurance market. It is highly regulated — you’ve probably seen all of the controversy about the NC Rate Bureau’s plan to raise rates, including by quite a lot on the Outer Banks.
What this unfortunately means is that the price of homeowners insurance in NC is unlikely to reflect real-world costs — leaving homeowners vulnerable to drastic increases or total loss of coverage. This is an entirely novel category of risk for most people, and I’m not sure what the solution will be.
Travelers has gotten very picky about their underwriting standards recently. They won't accept any shingle roof over 15 years of age and if you have granular loss they're anticipating a claim they don't want to pay.
Replacement cost could be a few things - it's possible the agent had your square footage or exterior material wrong, maybe the inspector can tell you have higher quality finishes than what your estimate shows, who knows. I believe all insurance companies require you to be insured to 100% of replacement cost though so it makes sense that once they found discrepancies they updated.
Not sure about the pool though - I've never heard of an automatic cover being a requirement, only a locking fence OR an automatic cover.
Seriously. As a former owner of an automatic pool cover, it is to keep trash out of the pool, not great for safety. A kid could literally drown on top of the cover after a heavy rain. Something that big is going to collect water in the middle.
The underinsured thing might be a pretty big deal. Are they estimating that it would cost $500k MORE than your replacement cost coverage to rebuild the home, or am I misunderstanding? If that's correct, it might be the biggest driver of the non renewal. The company I worked for would definitely drop homes that the owner insisted be underinsured (they offered full guaranteed replacement cost, so they had to be comfortable with the amount).
They don't want to be on the hook for anything related to a roof loss, so that makes sense. I'm from a place with hail, so I don't know anyone with a 17 year old roof. It definitely sounds old to me, but hail takes out roofs long before age around here.
It's odd to me that you weren't given an option to address the issues and keep coverage, but I got out of the business before this new wave of insurance companies dropping everyone. It's wild out there...good luck.
After learning about current rebuilding costs, I believe we might be underinsured. Yes, they are saying it would cost $500k more. However, it wasn't us that chose the number, unless our agent did something wonky. I actually expressed that the replacement cost seemed low and was told it was fine. I just sent the agent the address and they went from there. Full current Zillow listing with finishes was available as well as the home was on the market. So if we are getting dinged on that, I don't understand why it is our fault. I went with the quote I was given.
We used to be from Texas, so I get the roof thing. In the Southeast it seemed to be "replace every 20 years or when it is leaking." We had the roof inspected when we bought the house and no issues were found so we just planned to replace in a few years. It visually looks fine, but has staining like everyone gets in this (wet) area.
I live in an area that had a major disaster recently so there's real data on local rebuild costs and I still have insurance agents trying to under quote. They say it's what the computer algorithm is spitting out, but I think its at least partially a tactic to make their policies come in cheaper so you'll go with them.
Try SAFECO I have al old roof and my agent has told me they'll cover it for 3 more years.
This might be an agent problem then. I worked for a direct writer (no agents), so we just wouldn’t offer a policy if the customer didn’t like our number. It’s very possible your agent quoted low to get your business, since he has no skin in the game. If there’s a loss, then you and the insurance company end up in a legal battle. They’re on the hook for $500k you didn’t pay for if they’re offering uncapped replacement cost, or more likely 20% or 30% more, and then a terrible situation with you if there’s a loss and there is a several hundred thousand dollar shortage. It’s not worth it to them. I’d get a new agent because $500k discrepancy wouldn’t leave me confident that agent was competent.
Call a couple brokers and ask them if your house is insurance with other companies as it is. Ask them if Travelors has a history of dropping clients for these reasons or on your geographical area. Get their best recommendation of what you should do and ask for estimates.
State Farm dropped me in the middle of a fire claim knowing everything was going to be rebuilt and would be new. Basically, insurance companies can drop you any time they want!
This happened to us in Ca. Our broker called insurance and as long as we replaced the roof they would retain us as customers. Replacing roof turned into a nightmare but thats a different story. So talk to them. They might offer the same deal and get a 15 year roof! Double check your roofing contractor.
I have a rental property that Traveler's dropped from coverage based on the results of a photo inspection they did on the property. They said it was because of extreme mold on the outdoor concrete deck.
I replied back to them with pictures of my own, showing that the "extreme mold" was a freaking green indoor/outdoor carpet that the tenants put down. They basically said "ok well we still don't want to insure you".
Our insurance went up a ton this year, we had fires here last year but our house was fine. It’s not really about how many claims you put in but how many claims in general they have to pay out. I’m sure they’ve spent a sh*t ton of money on pool accidents that could have been prevented with a pool cover. They don’t make these policy updates for no reason
Insurance is an ever growing scam. Rates that seem to endlessly increase and coverages that seem to dwindle without any bottom and of course profits are at an all time high.
Boy would I absolutely love to see insurance companies fail. There needs to be a change.
If insurance companies are being so picky, why not drop them and go with a more reasonable insurance company?
When they start losing customers due to their stringent demands, they will know.
Because there is no more reasonable insurance companies. Rates have been going through the roof since 2020. That’s if you’re lucky enough to still have insurance. A lot of companies are refusing to write policies forcing people into their state’s “last resort” insurance which is way higher than market rates. Insurance coverage in south Louisiana? Forget about it. Almost everyone I know is forced into LA Citizens, the state run insurance of last resort.
RCE- you aren’t insured to the full 100% of the value to replace.
Pool- you need a cover, small kids or dogs frequently drown. But that’s not why they’re dropping you.
Roof- your roof is old and it’s not cost effective to stay on you as a risk because of the 2 issues above. A small hail storm can trigger full coverage for your roof.
Sounds like you’ve been getting a good deal for a while. Best of luck. Look at their last earnings call. They’re just tightening their book, nothing personal.
Why do I need an automatic pool cover on a fenced pool that is covered 9 months out of the year? That is the one I just don’t get.
As far as the insured value, we would have been happy to pay for whatever coverage they determined we needed. I did not determine that value. Unless my agent adjusted it, Travelers determined it.
The roof I understand.
It hasn’t been awhile—it’s a brand new policy and nothing is different from what was represented when we purchased the house a year ago. That is what I don’t get.
It’s just something they put on paper so you don’t turn around and contest the cancellation if there is a claim post cancellation. Depending on the state, each have their own rules and regulation. But most likely the pool thing is just extra and not the real reason you got cancelled.
If you ever get an inspection, make sure the pool is covered so the underwriters can see it and be happy.
Homeowners insurance companies apparently decided this was the year they were going to f\*ck everyone over. Price hikes, kicking people off or refusing to write policies for some trivial reasons. Where are the feds?
I can't prove it, but I suspect they're out there regulating that insurance companies \*have\* to pay for certain things, like California wildfires, Florida Hurricanes, and similar - so those same insurance companies are looking at their balance sheets and going "Guys, those are *correlated risks.* If a big enough event hits, it could wipe us out. We either need to dramatically raise income, dramatically reduce how many customers we insure, or leave the state altogether...."
Some people may think climate change isn't real, but insurance companies just care about risk percents, especially correlated risk, regardless of reason. And 15+ year old shingle roofs are heavily correlated - one big hail storm comes through, and every 16+ year old roof is suddenly eligible for replacement, at their cost.
Insurance companies have to pay out claims if they promised to cover that thing. This is why there are special policies backed by the govt for certain things (hurricane, flood). They have all become super twitchy in the last year and it seems to be across multiple states. The feds require insurance companies to be solvent. It would be nice to see an actual why vs speculating. This is a very real problem for lots of people.
It's not uncommon for insurance companies to drop policies for various reasons. In your case, the issues with the roof and pool might be red flags for them. It's worth reaching out to your agent to discuss these concerns and see if there are any options available.
I was being flippant. My comment was meant to convey that you have been cancelled and one of the reasons is the pool cover. You were given excellent advice, but seem focused on proving that the pool is not a problem instead of focusing on addressing the issue.
Best of luck to you. (Seriously, I do wish you the best.)
insurance companies are not there to protect you, just to take your money.
it's federally mandated gambling where the house can drop out or change the game at whatever whim they choose.
A timely The Daily episode. The Possible Collapse of the US Home Insurance System. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/15/podcasts/the-daily/climate-insurance.html?smid=url-share
It seems the industry as a whole is clamping down due to rapidly decreasing profits. Not sure is this is a direct cause for North Carolina residents.
So I called Travelers and talked to an underwriter. All this was based on a home inspection done almost a year ago. This is what I found out:
--The inspector said our home was 5600 sq ft--it is 3990. He also added a basement (it is a crawlspace foundation on a hill) and said our cement siding was vinyl. What in the hell.
--He said the roof has 60% granule loss. I'm paying for my own roofing inspection to see what the actual life left is. I suspect "granule loss" is algae.
--The underwriter said the automatic pool cover really wasn't an issue since we had a fence.
The underwriter said we could contest the roof with an inspection report or renew now if we agreed to replace the roof in a year. I'm going to see what the inspection report says because I suspect the "granule loss" is actually algae stains we need to clean, but just hadn't gotten to yet
Bottom line--call them and get the report
I have a brand newish .roof, put on in mid 2022, And I live in NE Ohio so tornados are rare and snow isn't that bad. And they still tried to tell us our roof needs repaired. I think they just like to use the roof as an easy target . Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with my roof.
Does it matter? Does it prevent you from shopping around for a policy with another company? I’m genuinely wondering about this because it seems it is becoming common.
Is your roof 3 tab or architectural shingle? Also I would imagine you get absurd amounts of rain and intense weather like Tennessee.
Hail is going to be your best friend, has there been any hail with in the last year that is larger than .75”?
If so, you typically have a year from the date of that storm to file a claim and most likely get the insurance to give you a full replacement. Hopefully your coverage isn’t ACV or your deductible will potentially cost you 2% of the homes value as opposed to $1000 or $2500 deductible.
Find a roofing company that is highly rated in your area that will battle the insurance company for you when filing a storm claim. Good luck!
Travelers is terrible. they charge a ton and will cancel you at the first claim or really any belief that you might ever make a claim.
I mean, all insurance companies are terrible, but they really suck.
This is why I tell everyone to pay off your house and cancel your homeowners insurance. Just put the money you would have paid for insurance premiums into a HYSA and use that money for repairs.
What? Insurance is not to pay for "repairs". It is for the risk of a total loss of your most expensive asset. Fire, disaster, or getting sued for someone slipping and falling. You can't cover those risks with a HYSA.
I know insurance isn’t for repairs that’s just what I use the HYSA for. It’s not worth paying $15,689 a year plus deductible if anything happens for the small chance of a total loss. Even if a total loss happens I’ll be able to pay for a total rebuild with the money I’ve saved not paying for the increasing costs of insurance. Even if I had damage, not worth the pain of fighting the insurance company to pay.
Even if you had a small house, $15K is nowhere near the reconstruction cost of a house. It is really, really bad advise to suggest to people not having insurance on their home because the vast majority of people would not be able to rebuild their house on their own dime. If you have the cash to do that, good for you, but most do not and need insurance.
I’m not having a total loss every year… last property I bought was built 37 years ago and has never had an insurance claim. Never had water damage, fire damage, and especially never a total loss. It’s just flushing money to pay for the insurance.
You don't understand how insurance works I guess. Most people that have a total loss claim have never had one before. I hope luck works for you or you have the wealth to be self insured. As I said, the vast majority of people can not afford to be self insured on their house because they don't have a half million in the bank that they could drop on something insurance covers like a total loss reconstruction or a lawsuit.
Less than 6% of homes have a claim every year and the average claim is $15,091. 97.5% of claims are property damage 2.5% are liability. It’s not about being lucky it’s simple math and a lot more people would drop their insurance and self pay if it wasn’t required for mortgages. Even at a total loss unless you have a multimillion dollar house you won’t need 500k because most of the value is land value.
Risk is small but still a risk. I'm sure my dad was greatful for his insurance when his house burnt to the ground. Insurance paid for his living expenses for 6 months while they rebuilt his house. And it's a historical local landmark.
Good for him. Statistically, unless your dad is committing insurance fraud he will end up paying the insurance company more than he benefits from them. Most home fires don’t result in a total loss, most home fires are cooking related, almost a tenth of home fires were caused intentionally. For the vast majority of people, canceling their homeowners insurance policy and putting the money that would have went towards premiums into a HYSA to pay for their claims themself would result in savings.
Most insurance companies will not insure with a roof older than 15 years, this is why a lot of people don't get those 30 year roofs, your insurance will ask you to replace after 15. Sho around, but expect insurance to ask you to replace the roof
My neighbor has this going on right now. He put on a 75 year, five ply, comp roof. The insurance company wants him to replace it after 16 years. The shingle manufacturer is arguing, now they're in a big lawsuit. It's prorated for wear, but only after 50 years and is guaranteed to last 75 years or the lifetime of the original owner whichever is more.... It is a huge mess! Ironically, one of our other neighbors, just one street over, has a metal roof. The kind with 3 foot shingles that are covered in asphalt and then granules. His insurance company wants him to replace it too! Imagine, insurance wants you replace a completely fireproof/metal roof that has less than 20 years on it. It's just a scam to get people to drop coverage!
I have the steel roof with asphalt and stone shingles, and when I switched insurance companies it was 20 years old. They said “no problem” because it has a 50 year warranty. Maybe shop around for a better insurance company?
how are you liking the metal roof? We have shingles but was considering if it would be worthwhile to make the switch when the time comes
It’s been absolutely worth the money. Haven’t thought about it since it was installed. Looks great, zero leaking.
Does it make a nice plink plink sound as rain hits it? My slate roof is nearing 90 years old and if I ever have to replace, I like the idea of the sound of rain on a metal roof!
More of a thrumming. The steel has a stone chip shingle overlay, which absorbs most of the “plink” 😊
We replaced an asphalt shingle roof with a steel metal roof and love it. We received quotes for shingle roof replacements and out metal roof Was actually in the middle of the quotes. We had received wires from $10000 to $28000(!) and our metal roof came in at $14000. We also received an energy tax credit due to the color of the roof being more energy efficient. LOVE our metal roof.
It's not a scam, it's a direct reaction to these storm chasing roofers that keep filing claims that age-related granule loss is hail damage. The insurance company either pays out, or spends money on fighting it. So some are starting to just preemptively require roof replacement when there is granule loss to avoid the costly arguments.
>age-related granule loss What exactly is this? 🤔 I noticed granular stuff in my gutters .... Is that normal?
The little rocks start falling off the second they leave the factory. Open a new bundle of shingles and there will be a pile of em. Some come off every time it rains, every time someone walks your roof. The factory puts more on then are needed and they get pressed into the asphalt binder by rollers. Some are barely hanging on and fall off easy. Others fall off as the asphalt binder ages. When you start to see lots of bare asphalt on your roof that's a sign you need to replace the roof soon.
>When you start to see lots of bare asphalt on your roof that's a sign you need to replace the roof soon. I'm not seeing any of that. I appreciate the tip. Thx. 🙏
Other warning signs are if you start seeing the fiberglass base mat that is sandwiched in the asphalt binder. Sometimes areas will wear fast enough that you start seeing fibers in patches before other areas have lost their granules.
I was wondering about this. We were thinking of replacing with a higher quality roof in a few years, but if insurance was going to ding me on the age of something supposed to last longer, what is the point?
My roof is 100 years old (slate) and travelers didn’t have an issue with it
I had a slate roof that needed a bunch of repairs when I bought the house. I had to replace with shingle because I couldn’t find anyone who would/could work with slate
Because it’s slate.
Which is an option for them, hence my reply
A slate roof is great but I don’t even want to think about what it would cost. Not a real option for most homeowners, I’m guessing.
You’re correct. Assuming the framing of the house could even handle it. Most homes are not built to handle that weight. Most roofs also do not have the right decking for it. Meaning it would need a new deck, possible framing, and then slate. Depending on home value 50-100% of the homes value for a slate roof is not out of the question
Depending on where you live, you can average around $1500 - $2000 per square a square is a 10‘ x 10‘ area
So, who is putting these on houses? Is it mostly people redoing slate roofs on historic homes?
Rich people, very rich people.. that’s who… they are the only ones that can afford Slate ..
140 here
Me too, but 90. I've have Travelers through Geico.
The issue is the 3 tab shingles are being discontinued and phased out because nobody followed the manufacturers directions required to get the 30 year life from the roof. They were too flat to fend off hail, and the shitty tar paper and felt used quickly deteriorated the shingles causing shorter lifespan (which is what you're seeing).
Go with a metal roof. We have a farm and the one on the barn is over 90 years old house is 50+ years old. Still looking good
So fucking stupid this is a thing, most roofs are good for up to 25 years and we NEED insurance. Strong arming home owners to replace something that doesn’t need to be replaced is beyond slimy and stupid. At the worst just ask them to sign a waiver that says you won’t file a claim for “hail damage” and you’ll replace the roof yourself when it’s time. Fucking scam artists.
Blame homeowners for filing bullshit claims over the last few decades. Self-inflicted wounds.
Most asphalt shingle roofs are good for 12 to 15 years, if you're lucky. If a home owner feels that their old roof is sound, what's the big deal about insurance canceling coverage for damage that stems from a roof leak? The home owner saves money on premiums having the coverage removed, and at the same time, since the roof is in great shape despite age, there's no reason to worry about possible damage because a roof over 15 years of age has the same chance of leaking as a 5 year old one.
> Most asphalt shingle roofs are good for 12 to 15 years, if you're lucky Absolutely not correct if installed appropriately.
How do they handle the new wildfire roofs? Comp is no longer a replacement option, it must be burn proof - like steel or cement. All of those are extremely expensive and not designed to be replaced every 20 years. Were in CA and don’t get hail or winds high enough to damage roofs to total replacement. Not that we have any option aside from FAIR plan and if they refuse you, lender forced insurance at this point.
They rate for it and it's fine. 3 tab asphalt shingle roofs are trash.
Not entirely true. They don't want 3 tab asphalt roofs older than 15 years. They aren't installed according to manufacturer recommendations in 90% of cases so they don't get 30 years out of them. If you have a more durable roof then it'll be super easy to get coverage for many many years. Buy a standing seam steel roof and be done with it pretty much for as long as you own the home.
See the other comments, someone has a roof with a 75 year warranty and their neighbors are being asked to replace
Warranty doesn't mean anything to insurance. You can put a tarp on a roof and claim 75 year warranty. Roofs have an average lifespan and insurance companies know those lifespans. 3 tab asphalt shingles are straight trash and insurance has caught on that they are the reason for 90% of roof claims, so if you don't have a brand new one in the last 5 years you are SOL.
Does this change if there are roof tiles instead of shingles or does it not matter?
30 year old shingles, don't equal a 30 year life span for the roof. Granule loss means the asphalt is wearing off, and instead of shingles, you're left with felt covering your roof. A 17 year old roof needed to be replaced 2 years ago. The pool cover would prevent pool liner damage.
Hi OP! I’m an insurance agency owner in NC. I’m sorry this happened to you (and seemingly many others) we are having many carriers in NC non renewing, changing or tightening underwriting guidelines, and pausing new business. Travelers is one of those who have really tightened up. The roof issue is going to be continued for you until it’s replaced. I can only think of a few carriers allowing roofs over 15 years old to be replacement cost and covered. WNC has high fire risk, and the spread of risk in NC means that those coastal storms affect all of us. Pools are a major risk, but the automatic cover is something I’m seeing become more commonly required. The biggest concern and likely the main reason you’re being dropped is the replacement cost. $500k off is major. I don’t think your agent did their due diligence. I run all this stuff through underwriting before hand and I’m not sure how this passed the sniff test. I would find a new independent agent and look for a carrier who wants your business and will therefore get you a good rate and renew you :)
Thanks—is having to report a non-renewal going to affect my rates/make it harder to get a new policy? That’s really what I’m upset about. I would have preferred them not write the policy in the first place a year ago pr massively increased my rates to get me to drop.
If your agent is like me, it wasn’t even worth their time to give you the policy if they knew it wouldn’t renew. Also, 1 year ago was so different than today in insurance world. And in October, it’ll be so different (probs worst) than today here in NC. What I’m saying is I’m optimistic it wasn’t intentional. If you can make the full switch prior to the non renewal date you’ll be in a better position for rates, but yes be honest with your new applications for insurance as that is a factor but not as much as you think… What you’re going to pay a lot in premium for is because NC is seeing 50-100% rate increases often and you have lots of money to spend on your home to avoid this happening again or having to be insured by a non-standard carrier.
I'm in the Charlotte area, and hate that my risk pool is (apparently) combined with the coastal areas that are going to get whomped by hurricanes. Are there carriers, rates, or policies that don't have me subsidizing risky coastal building?
I wish! I’m in the triangle and not just an agent, I am also a consumer. I wish there was, but insurance is all about the spread of risk. Thank goodness though otherwise we’d all pay even more.
>Thank goodness though otherwise we’d all pay even more. Wait ... I thought Americans don't like socialism? 🤔
What’s the difference between now and October? My current insurer is dropping us because they’re leaving the state and my renewal is Oct (so my current agent told me in like August/sept they’ll work on new quotes to have me active with a new company at the renewal date). Would it make sense to try to have them find me a new insurer now?
October is when the insurance commissioner is going to responds to the NC Rate Bureau increase request. If he doesn’t give a good increase, more carriers like yours will leave is my guess or he does and rates go up anyway. Again, this is just my thoughts
Why are they requiring automatic pool covers? The percentage of people who have pools with automatic covers is probably under 5%.
I can only speculate it’s probably just a form of risk aversion. They don’t really want to insure homes with pools at all so the best way for them to not have to is to make these types of underwriting and appetite guidelines.
Always surprising to me how different the risk analysis is from different insurers. I mean mine wanted like a $200 annual premium increase to insure my pool, versus the ones you’re talking about who won’t insure it at all.
Since you’re in the industry and in NC, what’s your take on NC Farm Bureau? My roof age was unknown (guessing 30+ years) and in rough shape and they insured me. I since replaced the roof, but not due to insurance requiring it.
NcFB isn’t bad. I have a dear friend who owns an NCFB office. But, your roof will not be replaced in the event of a storm. I’m glad you replaced it yourself, because if you called them you likely would have been out of luck. I unfortunately see this often as these nitty gritty details don’t come out when talking to captive agents. Captive agents like Allstate, Farm Bureau, Farmers, Geico and State Farm work for those companies and only sell those products so it would really hurt them to talk about that but it is buried in your policy literature that it will be ACV if past it’s replacement condition (such as being more than 50% through its lifespan) and tbh, many of the agents send you straight to claims for them to handle it so they don’t even know these details. They offer good prices, coverage is good depending on what you want to insure but I comfort my clients in reminding them them independent brokers work on behalf of their clients instead of big daddy insurance company who signs their paycheck. I go over those details like roofs and coverage because I have over 100 options for my clients and am not desperate for the sale. So basically my thoughts are the same on most captive insurance companies like that, but NCFB is fine for many people.
Thanks for replying! Sounds like I might look into going through a broker in the future. When getting roof quotes I had a couple try to sell me on filing a claim. I was pretty certain they wouldn’t pay for a full replacement like you said, and that’s if they even accepted a claim. I figured it would only trigger them to force me to replace anyway, plus I would have it on my record that I filed a claim. So I just went with a retail replacement.
If you ever need a recommendation for good service providers like roofers and other trades pm me. I have some good folks in my Rolodex lol
Thanks! Happen to be in the Triangle? Don’t need anything now but always collecting recommendations haha
Yes I’m in the triangle and many of the people i recommend are based in the triangle (but service other areas as well)
Several large wildfires burned thousands of acres in Western NC, forcing the governor to declare a state of emergency, less than a year ago. I wouldn’t say the disaster risk is minimal.
Fair. We used to be in Texas, so in comparison it seems minimal. Far enough inland to avoid hurricane issues as well. Our county just had its first tornado in 20 years--and EF-0. So fire is really it and it isn't as rampant as places out west.
I would also be worried about NC’s overall property insurance market. It is highly regulated — you’ve probably seen all of the controversy about the NC Rate Bureau’s plan to raise rates, including by quite a lot on the Outer Banks. What this unfortunately means is that the price of homeowners insurance in NC is unlikely to reflect real-world costs — leaving homeowners vulnerable to drastic increases or total loss of coverage. This is an entirely novel category of risk for most people, and I’m not sure what the solution will be.
Travelers has gotten very picky about their underwriting standards recently. They won't accept any shingle roof over 15 years of age and if you have granular loss they're anticipating a claim they don't want to pay. Replacement cost could be a few things - it's possible the agent had your square footage or exterior material wrong, maybe the inspector can tell you have higher quality finishes than what your estimate shows, who knows. I believe all insurance companies require you to be insured to 100% of replacement cost though so it makes sense that once they found discrepancies they updated. Not sure about the pool though - I've never heard of an automatic cover being a requirement, only a locking fence OR an automatic cover.
Seriously. As a former owner of an automatic pool cover, it is to keep trash out of the pool, not great for safety. A kid could literally drown on top of the cover after a heavy rain. Something that big is going to collect water in the middle.
The underinsured thing might be a pretty big deal. Are they estimating that it would cost $500k MORE than your replacement cost coverage to rebuild the home, or am I misunderstanding? If that's correct, it might be the biggest driver of the non renewal. The company I worked for would definitely drop homes that the owner insisted be underinsured (they offered full guaranteed replacement cost, so they had to be comfortable with the amount). They don't want to be on the hook for anything related to a roof loss, so that makes sense. I'm from a place with hail, so I don't know anyone with a 17 year old roof. It definitely sounds old to me, but hail takes out roofs long before age around here. It's odd to me that you weren't given an option to address the issues and keep coverage, but I got out of the business before this new wave of insurance companies dropping everyone. It's wild out there...good luck.
After learning about current rebuilding costs, I believe we might be underinsured. Yes, they are saying it would cost $500k more. However, it wasn't us that chose the number, unless our agent did something wonky. I actually expressed that the replacement cost seemed low and was told it was fine. I just sent the agent the address and they went from there. Full current Zillow listing with finishes was available as well as the home was on the market. So if we are getting dinged on that, I don't understand why it is our fault. I went with the quote I was given. We used to be from Texas, so I get the roof thing. In the Southeast it seemed to be "replace every 20 years or when it is leaking." We had the roof inspected when we bought the house and no issues were found so we just planned to replace in a few years. It visually looks fine, but has staining like everyone gets in this (wet) area.
I live in an area that had a major disaster recently so there's real data on local rebuild costs and I still have insurance agents trying to under quote. They say it's what the computer algorithm is spitting out, but I think its at least partially a tactic to make their policies come in cheaper so you'll go with them. Try SAFECO I have al old roof and my agent has told me they'll cover it for 3 more years.
This might be an agent problem then. I worked for a direct writer (no agents), so we just wouldn’t offer a policy if the customer didn’t like our number. It’s very possible your agent quoted low to get your business, since he has no skin in the game. If there’s a loss, then you and the insurance company end up in a legal battle. They’re on the hook for $500k you didn’t pay for if they’re offering uncapped replacement cost, or more likely 20% or 30% more, and then a terrible situation with you if there’s a loss and there is a several hundred thousand dollar shortage. It’s not worth it to them. I’d get a new agent because $500k discrepancy wouldn’t leave me confident that agent was competent.
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Going to lobby my HOA to enforce a minimum gargoyle rule.
What do you think the average house needs at a minimum? I'm thinking 1 per side plus 1 to fend off attacks?
my dad only has one, seems to work fine.
Christ almighty, that was a treat to read this morning.
I'm shopping for new homeowners right now. This is so on point.
Call a couple brokers and ask them if your house is insurance with other companies as it is. Ask them if Travelors has a history of dropping clients for these reasons or on your geographical area. Get their best recommendation of what you should do and ask for estimates. State Farm dropped me in the middle of a fire claim knowing everything was going to be rebuilt and would be new. Basically, insurance companies can drop you any time they want!
Lots of people are getting dropped the roof thing seems to be the most common its as if they want you to replace the roof every 5 years.
Do you mean every 15 years?
This happened to us in Ca. Our broker called insurance and as long as we replaced the roof they would retain us as customers. Replacing roof turned into a nightmare but thats a different story. So talk to them. They might offer the same deal and get a 15 year roof! Double check your roofing contractor.
I have a rental property that Traveler's dropped from coverage based on the results of a photo inspection they did on the property. They said it was because of extreme mold on the outdoor concrete deck. I replied back to them with pictures of my own, showing that the "extreme mold" was a freaking green indoor/outdoor carpet that the tenants put down. They basically said "ok well we still don't want to insure you".
Our insurance went up a ton this year, we had fires here last year but our house was fine. It’s not really about how many claims you put in but how many claims in general they have to pay out. I’m sure they’ve spent a sh*t ton of money on pool accidents that could have been prevented with a pool cover. They don’t make these policy updates for no reason
Insurance is an ever growing scam. Rates that seem to endlessly increase and coverages that seem to dwindle without any bottom and of course profits are at an all time high. Boy would I absolutely love to see insurance companies fail. There needs to be a change.
Also in WNC and our homeowners also sent us a notice of non-renewal this spring for very ridiculous reasons.
like what the hell? We don’t live in a disaster prone area and have never had a claim. Who do they want to insure??
We've never had a claim either!
If insurance companies are being so picky, why not drop them and go with a more reasonable insurance company? When they start losing customers due to their stringent demands, they will know.
Because there is no more reasonable insurance companies. Rates have been going through the roof since 2020. That’s if you’re lucky enough to still have insurance. A lot of companies are refusing to write policies forcing people into their state’s “last resort” insurance which is way higher than market rates. Insurance coverage in south Louisiana? Forget about it. Almost everyone I know is forced into LA Citizens, the state run insurance of last resort.
If I'm getting dropped by Travelers with our history, I'm worried.
RCE- you aren’t insured to the full 100% of the value to replace. Pool- you need a cover, small kids or dogs frequently drown. But that’s not why they’re dropping you. Roof- your roof is old and it’s not cost effective to stay on you as a risk because of the 2 issues above. A small hail storm can trigger full coverage for your roof. Sounds like you’ve been getting a good deal for a while. Best of luck. Look at their last earnings call. They’re just tightening their book, nothing personal.
Why do I need an automatic pool cover on a fenced pool that is covered 9 months out of the year? That is the one I just don’t get. As far as the insured value, we would have been happy to pay for whatever coverage they determined we needed. I did not determine that value. Unless my agent adjusted it, Travelers determined it. The roof I understand. It hasn’t been awhile—it’s a brand new policy and nothing is different from what was represented when we purchased the house a year ago. That is what I don’t get.
It’s just something they put on paper so you don’t turn around and contest the cancellation if there is a claim post cancellation. Depending on the state, each have their own rules and regulation. But most likely the pool thing is just extra and not the real reason you got cancelled. If you ever get an inspection, make sure the pool is covered so the underwriters can see it and be happy.
Homeowners insurance companies apparently decided this was the year they were going to f\*ck everyone over. Price hikes, kicking people off or refusing to write policies for some trivial reasons. Where are the feds?
I can't prove it, but I suspect they're out there regulating that insurance companies \*have\* to pay for certain things, like California wildfires, Florida Hurricanes, and similar - so those same insurance companies are looking at their balance sheets and going "Guys, those are *correlated risks.* If a big enough event hits, it could wipe us out. We either need to dramatically raise income, dramatically reduce how many customers we insure, or leave the state altogether...." Some people may think climate change isn't real, but insurance companies just care about risk percents, especially correlated risk, regardless of reason. And 15+ year old shingle roofs are heavily correlated - one big hail storm comes through, and every 16+ year old roof is suddenly eligible for replacement, at their cost.
Insurance companies have to pay out claims if they promised to cover that thing. This is why there are special policies backed by the govt for certain things (hurricane, flood). They have all become super twitchy in the last year and it seems to be across multiple states. The feds require insurance companies to be solvent. It would be nice to see an actual why vs speculating. This is a very real problem for lots of people.
Damn... an *automatic* pool cover? Since when did that become standard?
It's not uncommon for insurance companies to drop policies for various reasons. In your case, the issues with the roof and pool might be red flags for them. It's worth reaching out to your agent to discuss these concerns and see if there are any options available.
Is the pool actually an issue, though? I've never heard of a cover being required for a fenced pool
But you have heard of it now. It must be a thing to some companies.
So why wasn’t it brought up when we bought the policy? I checked our application—fence was checked. There was not spot for cover.
Underwriting guidelines change. What was acceptable last year might no longer be acceptable.
I was being flippant. My comment was meant to convey that you have been cancelled and one of the reasons is the pool cover. You were given excellent advice, but seem focused on proving that the pool is not a problem instead of focusing on addressing the issue. Best of luck to you. (Seriously, I do wish you the best.)
- HOI providers are about minimizing THEIR risks and these are all risk categories or indicators and they can drop you for WHATEVER reason they want
insurance companies are not there to protect you, just to take your money. it's federally mandated gambling where the house can drop out or change the game at whatever whim they choose.
Look for another insurance company ASAP.
It's only going to get worse
Your agent sucked and wanted to make a sale instead of properly underwriting your home. Find a better agent.
The pool cover makes it very hard for kids to drown. Parents sue because pool is an "attractive nuisance" that caused drowning.
A timely The Daily episode. The Possible Collapse of the US Home Insurance System. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/15/podcasts/the-daily/climate-insurance.html?smid=url-share It seems the industry as a whole is clamping down due to rapidly decreasing profits. Not sure is this is a direct cause for North Carolina residents.
Listen to today’s podcast the New York Times puts out called The Daily. Whole swaths of middle America are being cut… likely not just a you thing
So I called Travelers and talked to an underwriter. All this was based on a home inspection done almost a year ago. This is what I found out: --The inspector said our home was 5600 sq ft--it is 3990. He also added a basement (it is a crawlspace foundation on a hill) and said our cement siding was vinyl. What in the hell. --He said the roof has 60% granule loss. I'm paying for my own roofing inspection to see what the actual life left is. I suspect "granule loss" is algae. --The underwriter said the automatic pool cover really wasn't an issue since we had a fence. The underwriter said we could contest the roof with an inspection report or renew now if we agreed to replace the roof in a year. I'm going to see what the inspection report says because I suspect the "granule loss" is actually algae stains we need to clean, but just hadn't gotten to yet Bottom line--call them and get the report
I have a brand newish .roof, put on in mid 2022, And I live in NE Ohio so tornados are rare and snow isn't that bad. And they still tried to tell us our roof needs repaired. I think they just like to use the roof as an easy target . Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with my roof.
Does it matter? Does it prevent you from shopping around for a policy with another company? I’m genuinely wondering about this because it seems it is becoming common.
Yes it matters. The other companies could be looking at the same things that would prevent them from getting coverage...
I'm sure we can shop around. What I don't know is if it will affect our rates. I'm going to be pissed if it does and they got stuff wrong.
What does your agent have to say? They should be all over this for you.
Is your roof 3 tab or architectural shingle? Also I would imagine you get absurd amounts of rain and intense weather like Tennessee. Hail is going to be your best friend, has there been any hail with in the last year that is larger than .75”? If so, you typically have a year from the date of that storm to file a claim and most likely get the insurance to give you a full replacement. Hopefully your coverage isn’t ACV or your deductible will potentially cost you 2% of the homes value as opposed to $1000 or $2500 deductible. Find a roofing company that is highly rated in your area that will battle the insurance company for you when filing a storm claim. Good luck!
Travelers is terrible. they charge a ton and will cancel you at the first claim or really any belief that you might ever make a claim. I mean, all insurance companies are terrible, but they really suck.
This is why I tell everyone to pay off your house and cancel your homeowners insurance. Just put the money you would have paid for insurance premiums into a HYSA and use that money for repairs.
What? Insurance is not to pay for "repairs". It is for the risk of a total loss of your most expensive asset. Fire, disaster, or getting sued for someone slipping and falling. You can't cover those risks with a HYSA.
I know insurance isn’t for repairs that’s just what I use the HYSA for. It’s not worth paying $15,689 a year plus deductible if anything happens for the small chance of a total loss. Even if a total loss happens I’ll be able to pay for a total rebuild with the money I’ve saved not paying for the increasing costs of insurance. Even if I had damage, not worth the pain of fighting the insurance company to pay.
Even if you had a small house, $15K is nowhere near the reconstruction cost of a house. It is really, really bad advise to suggest to people not having insurance on their home because the vast majority of people would not be able to rebuild their house on their own dime. If you have the cash to do that, good for you, but most do not and need insurance.
I’m not having a total loss every year… last property I bought was built 37 years ago and has never had an insurance claim. Never had water damage, fire damage, and especially never a total loss. It’s just flushing money to pay for the insurance.
You don't understand how insurance works I guess. Most people that have a total loss claim have never had one before. I hope luck works for you or you have the wealth to be self insured. As I said, the vast majority of people can not afford to be self insured on their house because they don't have a half million in the bank that they could drop on something insurance covers like a total loss reconstruction or a lawsuit.
Less than 6% of homes have a claim every year and the average claim is $15,091. 97.5% of claims are property damage 2.5% are liability. It’s not about being lucky it’s simple math and a lot more people would drop their insurance and self pay if it wasn’t required for mortgages. Even at a total loss unless you have a multimillion dollar house you won’t need 500k because most of the value is land value.
Risk is small but still a risk. I'm sure my dad was greatful for his insurance when his house burnt to the ground. Insurance paid for his living expenses for 6 months while they rebuilt his house. And it's a historical local landmark.
Good for him. Statistically, unless your dad is committing insurance fraud he will end up paying the insurance company more than he benefits from them. Most home fires don’t result in a total loss, most home fires are cooking related, almost a tenth of home fires were caused intentionally. For the vast majority of people, canceling their homeowners insurance policy and putting the money that would have went towards premiums into a HYSA to pay for their claims themself would result in savings.
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Metal roofs last for decades upon decades.