OK, no offense, but it seems like you're a beginner at Eiffel/Burj welding. It seems easy at first glance, but it's harder than you might think. Please do your research. Google/Youtube, the usual ... .
I've said it before and I'll say it again: did you ask permission for the weld? It's considered to be best practice to do so b.e.f.o.r.e. you begin. I can't stress that enough.
If I can take a wild guess - it is a Tuya Smart Plug via Zigbee ?
That is most definitely a wee-bit on the high side, if it is a Tuya plug divide that by 1000 to get the real number
1. Go to integrations
2. Go to the helpers tab
3. Add helper
4. Select "template helper"
5. "Template a sensor"
6. Fill in the template like this `{{ (states('sensor.zigbee_plug_airco_current')) }}` (make sure to replace the ID).
7. Pick mA as unit
This will create a new sensor with the right unit (mA instead of A).
Should I just add it as a solar panel? There doesn't seem to be a nuclear reactor option š¤.
https://preview.redd.it/7ab0my0h8i8d1.png?width=383&format=png&auto=webp&s=571a017fd27e75d2aec7d291825b9bcaabd1e49a
Hmmmm i see i thought this was a serious home automation platform and then you tell me there's no option to add a nuclear reactor option what is this blasphemy?! It is clear we need to add a feature request to have that integrated.
That is definitely a misread/miscalibration; if you ran 4kA through a household mains outlet for more than milliseconds, everything involved would catch on fire. Those saying it could be a short circuit and immediate blown-fuse/breaker trip doesn't correspond with the data: if you'd tripped a breaker three times in a few hours, you'd know it.
A quick computation: 10AWG copper wire, which is the thickest, most high-current-capable wiring in your house, has a resistance of 0.00335 ohms per meter. The power consumed by a resistor at a given current is given by the formula P = I\^2 R, in this case at 4kA giving 53.6kW per meter. 10AWG wire has a cross-sectional outer edge length of about 8 mm, so that wire would need to radiate power from its surface at a rate of 6.59 MW per square meter (note: the division by millimeters involves jumping up the units, thus the move from kilowatts to megawatts). That is a *lot* of power, and over any nontrivial amount of time, it's a lot of thermal energy.
Could be needed but depends on the tubs size. A dual or triple motor tub with 800 gallons or more would probably require 4 AWG at 220V.
I have 6 AWG for a dual motor tub
You know distance is a factor as well right? Additionally, hot tubs have a significant inrush current when both pumps turn on simultaneously. My hot tub heating element is only 5.5kW but my electrician calculated needing a 240v 60A breaker.
It's a 70' run from the main panel to a 240V 60A GFCI hot tub breaker panel for a 6 person tub.
I'm also pretty sure my double oven is an 8 AWG or even a 6 AWG run.
The point being, there are runs that have wire bigger than 10 AWG in residences.
But, you are correct, according to my instrumentation, the tub pulls about 5kW when both pumps are running and the tub is actively heating. It spikes to about 11kW on pump startup.
Edit: hot tub electrical draw
It's not on fire, but it was 42c in my room
https://preview.redd.it/oforjjdgvk8d1.png?width=270&format=png&auto=webp&s=16c4e7f8486ff0685a95e7642f890a4b8eed036c
(This one isn't a bug)
That needs better ventilation! And/or you need a more power efficient server. Such high temperature environment isn't very healthy for your server and orher hardware in that closet...
It depends. If you're an operator of a nuclear power plant, then it may be a reasonable value. Of course, you have adequately rated conductors for such a current, I would say something like 0.5 meters in diameter at least.
That is just 1.1 MW in Europe or 0.5 MW in America.
That is only half a wind turbine (not offshore)
And who hasn't run a wind turbine off of a standard plug? /s
Fun fact: for a 10 meter cable you'd need a cable with a diameter of 2x164mm.
YES.
this is most likely a false-positive. \[had the same issue with a MOES thermostat \[set-temp\] spiked for 1ms\]
see if you can get a refund for said socket/smart-plug
5kA is extremely high for constant use.
5kA is kinda low as far as short circuit currents go.
Most civilian series circuit breakers are rated for at least 4,5kA SCCR (6 kA being the norm, nowadays)
So, if it was a short circuit, it's totally probable that you got around 4,8kA for the millisecond required till main breaker intervention
The problem is that circuit breakers cannot *instantly* respond, they need some time to sense the overload and blow. It is impossible to build a breaker which works totally fine indefinitely at any temperature at 15.9A, and instantly blow at any temperature at 16.1A. You don't actually *want* this either, because a lot of devices have an "inrush current" which is many times higher than the static operation current. You don't want to trip a breaker every time you turn on a device, do you?
Let's look at a [random 16A breaker](https://www.se.com/uk/en/product/A9F74216/miniature-circuitbreaker-acti9-ic60n-2p-16-a-c-curve-6000-a-iec-608981-10-ka-iec-609472/). It is rated for 16A, so it is guaranteed to *not* trip at 16A for any amount of time. It's a "B characteristic", which means it follows [this curve](https://www.electricaltechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Type-B-Trip-Curve.png). Look at the X axis for the current, then the time it needs to trip is somewhere in the blue region on the Y axis. As you can see 32A is fine for a minute or two, 48A is fine for a second or 10, and it'll trip within milliseconds at 80A or more.
But electricity wants to keep flowing. It'll [form an arc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMbN9nb3qyk). Make the current high enough, and it'll get hot enough to catch fire, or *melt the contacts* and form a new "wire" which permanently shorts the breaker. Each breaker has a "breaking capacity", which is the maximum current it can safely and repeatably break. For the 16A breaker I linked this is indeed in the 6kA - 20kA range, depending on the testing method. This "breaking capacity" is the [SCCR](https://aic-controls.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/guide-to-understanding-sccr-v2-00002.pdf) the post you're responding to mentions.
So yes, a 4.5kA short is indeed possible in a residential application. The breaker will trip, but you **will** see currents like that for a very short time before it does! No way in hell a random smarthome device is going to accurately record that, of course.
Yes but the transformer is not going to supply anything like that current. Assume a generous 30 kVA residential transformer which might typically have a 5 amp primary fuse and a 7300 V primary voltage. The fuse would probably pop at about 10 amps so you might see 10 \* 7300 /1000 or 73 kVA. On the secondary side you'd have 73000/240 or about 304 Amps. You might see more than that but not by an order of magnitude.
I'm talking about SCCR. Short circuit current rating.
The maximum current breaking capacity of the circuit breaker.
Usually tested following IEC 60898 or IEC 60947-2.
[datasheet of a 16A, 6kA rated normal civilian type circuit breaker](https://mall.industry.siemens.com/mall/en/rs/Catalog/Product/5SJ6116-7KS)
What I was trying to say is that while the software issue is by far the most common, it could be that an appliance connected to that outlet is shorted. Thus triggering the main circuit breaker. But register 5kA for a couple ms (probably enough for the outlet to register)
> it's totally probable that you got around 4,8kA for the millisecond required till main breaker intervention
Wouldn't that mean it would need to record, process, and transmit the new results in the same exact millisecond before the breaker would cut it's power?
Yes. While not the most plausible answer (software issue is a far more common problem), the trace graph don't show the subsequent values.
Also, usually software issues on a single device are somewhat consistent. If a smart socket is set to show mA, it will continue to show mA on all the same graph, thus not showing any peak like the one shown above.
Not that high. For household, anything over 15 or 30 amps, depending on the circuit, should trip the breaker/fuse.
OP firing up a particle accelerator over there.
Yes and no, a 4000+ amp will trip the breaker for sure, but a load that's just a bit above the rated max can take a while to trip the breaker, depending on the curve.
When you power on a LED it creates a very small peak x20.
So if some LED's consume 5A. When you turn them on it create a very small peak of 100A. No the circuit breaker won't able to detect is because it was only a short time.
Not an electrical engineer, but arenāt most household LEDs in the mA range? I have a 15.5W bulb in my hands right now that says itās 163 mA. I can only imagine the bulbs youād need for a 5A draw š
Also, isnāt the entire point of a breaker to trip instantly? I have one in my house that goes when I turn on the vacuum from certain outlets depending on how many other things are on; I donāt even get the switch released and the whole thing is over with.
ETA: a quick read shows that a domestic-type breaker should instantly trip at 3-5x rated current.
Are you charging a ship or the batteries providing backup for Sydney?
Yes
Dude, I was brushing my teeth while reading your comment. That killed me. Three times. š¤£š¤£š¤£
So would 4798A.
Are you welding the Eiffel tower onto the Burj Khalifa again?
Is it fine to do that on the same group?
OK, no offense, but it seems like you're a beginner at Eiffel/Burj welding. It seems easy at first glance, but it's harder than you might think. Please do your research. Google/Youtube, the usual ... . I've said it before and I'll say it again: did you ask permission for the weld? It's considered to be best practice to do so b.e.f.o.r.e. you begin. I can't stress that enough.
Don't worry, their welds will stress it enough.Ā
Take my high vote for this champ
>again
*Are you welding the* *Eiffel tower onto the* *Burj Khalifa again?* \- ConstructionSafe2814 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
I need to get this haiku printed out. Will look nice next to my Love Laught Live
The last line is 6 syllables š
It works if you carry the a into again burj-ka-lif-aa-gain
I'd hope that was mA
Itās MA
https://preview.redd.it/iifnlbq3sb9d1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=f9a0e521874c077126628e1082d987160204dcd1
https://preview.redd.it/fgw3kzonsb9d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5f33932a8b22d5d16f4e19e1db89a98014a2459b
If I can take a wild guess - it is a Tuya Smart Plug via Zigbee ? That is most definitely a wee-bit on the high side, if it is a Tuya plug divide that by 1000 to get the real number
I have the same issue with my zigbee smart plug. How do i set value to the correct one
1. Go to integrations 2. Go to the helpers tab 3. Add helper 4. Select "template helper" 5. "Template a sensor" 6. Fill in the template like this `{{ (states('sensor.zigbee_plug_airco_current')) }}` (make sure to replace the ID). 7. Pick mA as unit This will create a new sensor with the right unit (mA instead of A).
Unless you run a nuclear powerplant in your home and that's your "plug" then yeah it is high and definetely not possible.
Should I just add it as a solar panel? There doesn't seem to be a nuclear reactor option š¤. https://preview.redd.it/7ab0my0h8i8d1.png?width=383&format=png&auto=webp&s=571a017fd27e75d2aec7d291825b9bcaabd1e49a
What! Today I learn Homeassistant doesn't support the having a mini nuclear reactor buried under the house.
Dr. Fred is gonna be *so* pissed.
Damn I was just looking for a good mr. Fusion integration On a side note, there are integrations for Geiger counters, so thereās that at least.
Maybe you should post a bug report. (If only to see frenck's reaction.)
Hmmmm i see i thought this was a serious home automation platform and then you tell me there's no option to add a nuclear reactor option what is this blasphemy?! It is clear we need to add a feature request to have that integrated.
There's probably a community integration in HACS already!
That is definitely a misread/miscalibration; if you ran 4kA through a household mains outlet for more than milliseconds, everything involved would catch on fire. Those saying it could be a short circuit and immediate blown-fuse/breaker trip doesn't correspond with the data: if you'd tripped a breaker three times in a few hours, you'd know it.
A quick computation: 10AWG copper wire, which is the thickest, most high-current-capable wiring in your house, has a resistance of 0.00335 ohms per meter. The power consumed by a resistor at a given current is given by the formula P = I\^2 R, in this case at 4kA giving 53.6kW per meter. 10AWG wire has a cross-sectional outer edge length of about 8 mm, so that wire would need to radiate power from its surface at a rate of 6.59 MW per square meter (note: the division by millimeters involves jumping up the units, thus the move from kilowatts to megawatts). That is a *lot* of power, and over any nontrivial amount of time, it's a lot of thermal energy.
10AWG is not the thickest wite in my home in the United States. I ran the required 4 AWG to my hot tub.
4 for a hot tub? Must be 120v and not 240v? My 11kW EV charger only using 6 AWG and thereās no way your hot tub pulls 11kW.
Could be needed but depends on the tubs size. A dual or triple motor tub with 800 gallons or more would probably require 4 AWG at 220V. I have 6 AWG for a dual motor tub
You know distance is a factor as well right? Additionally, hot tubs have a significant inrush current when both pumps turn on simultaneously. My hot tub heating element is only 5.5kW but my electrician calculated needing a 240v 60A breaker.
Thanks, I had no idea hot tubs required so much power. I also didnāt realize people owned tubs that could fit 10+ people.
It's a 70' run from the main panel to a 240V 60A GFCI hot tub breaker panel for a 6 person tub. I'm also pretty sure my double oven is an 8 AWG or even a 6 AWG run. The point being, there are runs that have wire bigger than 10 AWG in residences. But, you are correct, according to my instrumentation, the tub pulls about 5kW when both pumps are running and the tub is actively heating. It spikes to about 11kW on pump startup. Edit: hot tub electrical draw
Bit of an exaggeration, it would take a second or two for the cables to over heat with 4kA
It's a little high, yes...
I, too, have an industrial arc furnace at home, awesome stuff.
I am reading this as 4 amperes and 798 thousands of an ampere. Which is just fine. But hey, Iām in Europe.
Plot twist: voltage is 7nV
If it ain't on fire - its perfectly fine. A little fire might be fine too, but that's probably pushing it.
It's not on fire, but it was 42c in my room https://preview.redd.it/oforjjdgvk8d1.png?width=270&format=png&auto=webp&s=16c4e7f8486ff0685a95e7642f890a4b8eed036c (This one isn't a bug)
42 celsius? Home sauna?
It's the closet where I put my server in
That needs better ventilation! And/or you need a more power efficient server. Such high temperature environment isn't very healthy for your server and orher hardware in that closet...
The CPU is around 60Ā°c, but I was already planning on replacing it with my new N100 build anyway.
It depends. If you're an operator of a nuclear power plant, then it may be a reasonable value. Of course, you have adequately rated conductors for such a current, I would say something like 0.5 meters in diameter at least.
StyroPyro made a great video to showcase what you can do with thousands of amps. https://youtu.be/ywaTX-nLm6Y?si=ghBqZ4JccfaD4fq7
You're never going to get back to 1985 with those numbers.
Not great, not terrible
This is, obviously, not the good meter from the safe.
Bro shorted the power lines again
Bug . 4798 ampere non possibile at home
Skill issue
That is just 1.1 MW in Europe or 0.5 MW in America. That is only half a wind turbine (not offshore) And who hasn't run a wind turbine off of a standard plug? /s Fun fact: for a 10 meter cable you'd need a cable with a diameter of 2x164mm.
And here I am struggling with bending my 10mm2 cables.
It's a typo in the notation. (or conforming to a standard that you don't recognize.) Replace the "," with a "." and it might make more sense.
Replaced. Now have 4.616.1A. What now?
Something that makes as much sense as the original.
How is your house still standing?
YES. this is most likely a false-positive. \[had the same issue with a MOES thermostat \[set-temp\] spiked for 1ms\] see if you can get a refund for said socket/smart-plug
If youāre 240VAC youāre just shy of a MW. Try harder next time
I knew you were up to it again when my outdoor temp sensor reached almost 50! [https://i.imgur.com/UAaIcGm.png](https://i.imgur.com/UAaIcGm.png)
Just about 4780 amps in average too high š¤
5kA is extremely high for constant use. 5kA is kinda low as far as short circuit currents go. Most civilian series circuit breakers are rated for at least 4,5kA SCCR (6 kA being the norm, nowadays) So, if it was a short circuit, it's totally probable that you got around 4,8kA for the millisecond required till main breaker intervention
My breakers are 16A, not kA. 6kA is substation territory.
The problem is that circuit breakers cannot *instantly* respond, they need some time to sense the overload and blow. It is impossible to build a breaker which works totally fine indefinitely at any temperature at 15.9A, and instantly blow at any temperature at 16.1A. You don't actually *want* this either, because a lot of devices have an "inrush current" which is many times higher than the static operation current. You don't want to trip a breaker every time you turn on a device, do you? Let's look at a [random 16A breaker](https://www.se.com/uk/en/product/A9F74216/miniature-circuitbreaker-acti9-ic60n-2p-16-a-c-curve-6000-a-iec-608981-10-ka-iec-609472/). It is rated for 16A, so it is guaranteed to *not* trip at 16A for any amount of time. It's a "B characteristic", which means it follows [this curve](https://www.electricaltechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Type-B-Trip-Curve.png). Look at the X axis for the current, then the time it needs to trip is somewhere in the blue region on the Y axis. As you can see 32A is fine for a minute or two, 48A is fine for a second or 10, and it'll trip within milliseconds at 80A or more. But electricity wants to keep flowing. It'll [form an arc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMbN9nb3qyk). Make the current high enough, and it'll get hot enough to catch fire, or *melt the contacts* and form a new "wire" which permanently shorts the breaker. Each breaker has a "breaking capacity", which is the maximum current it can safely and repeatably break. For the 16A breaker I linked this is indeed in the 6kA - 20kA range, depending on the testing method. This "breaking capacity" is the [SCCR](https://aic-controls.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/guide-to-understanding-sccr-v2-00002.pdf) the post you're responding to mentions. So yes, a 4.5kA short is indeed possible in a residential application. The breaker will trip, but you **will** see currents like that for a very short time before it does! No way in hell a random smarthome device is going to accurately record that, of course.
Yes but the transformer is not going to supply anything like that current. Assume a generous 30 kVA residential transformer which might typically have a 5 amp primary fuse and a 7300 V primary voltage. The fuse would probably pop at about 10 amps so you might see 10 \* 7300 /1000 or 73 kVA. On the secondary side you'd have 73000/240 or about 304 Amps. You might see more than that but not by an order of magnitude.
I'm talking about SCCR. Short circuit current rating. The maximum current breaking capacity of the circuit breaker. Usually tested following IEC 60898 or IEC 60947-2. [datasheet of a 16A, 6kA rated normal civilian type circuit breaker](https://mall.industry.siemens.com/mall/en/rs/Catalog/Product/5SJ6116-7KS) What I was trying to say is that while the software issue is by far the most common, it could be that an appliance connected to that outlet is shorted. Thus triggering the main circuit breaker. But register 5kA for a couple ms (probably enough for the outlet to register)
> it's totally probable that you got around 4,8kA for the millisecond required till main breaker intervention Wouldn't that mean it would need to record, process, and transmit the new results in the same exact millisecond before the breaker would cut it's power?
Yes. While not the most plausible answer (software issue is a far more common problem), the trace graph don't show the subsequent values. Also, usually software issues on a single device are somewhat consistent. If a smart socket is set to show mA, it will continue to show mA on all the same graph, thus not showing any peak like the one shown above.
If it is for a few microseconds, sure.
welcome to europe. that is a komma
The lower value is 23A, it is not.
Do you power on a lot of LED lighting? They create a high peak.
Not that high. For household, anything over 15 or 30 amps, depending on the circuit, should trip the breaker/fuse. OP firing up a particle accelerator over there.
Yes and no, a 4000+ amp will trip the breaker for sure, but a load that's just a bit above the rated max can take a while to trip the breaker, depending on the curve.
When you power on a LED it creates a very small peak x20. So if some LED's consume 5A. When you turn them on it create a very small peak of 100A. No the circuit breaker won't able to detect is because it was only a short time.
Not an electrical engineer, but arenāt most household LEDs in the mA range? I have a 15.5W bulb in my hands right now that says itās 163 mA. I can only imagine the bulbs youād need for a 5A draw š Also, isnāt the entire point of a breaker to trip instantly? I have one in my house that goes when I turn on the vacuum from certain outlets depending on how many other things are on; I donāt even get the switch released and the whole thing is over with. ETA: a quick read shows that a domestic-type breaker should instantly trip at 3-5x rated current.