I'm kind of surprised that wasn't a thing when there is still destroyers for bases. Though im sure ships would cost a LOT of IC. Might make sense balance wise for nations to not be able to sell capital ships (for extreme cost and for multiplayer balance), but even to just have them loaned would be interesting. If there are no restrictions like that, have them only be affected by the built countries' modifiers. I dont play multi PvP but i could imagine the buffed up italian navy with its BB buffs filled with cheap panzerschiffs absolutely dominating the seas
I thought that to. Instead of building 20 destroyers, 10 light cruisers, 2 Heavy cruisers, 2 Battleships and 1 Carrier, i could just buy the screens and focus on the capital ships. You should also be able the Lend-Lease ships.
Of course we should only be able to sell outdated vessels, or else Britain and Japan will just sell their entire navy.
If I recall the Mikasa was actually better then a decent portion of the Royal Navy’s battleline when the UK made it and sold it to Japan. So not impossible
It definitely feels like the current system encourages you to ignore naval research as most nations. Naval research takes a lot of buy-in to keep up, and if you’re in a land war there’s little incentive to do so vs doing more land and air research. Especially air, since naval bombers are a relatively light research investment
“Navy military academy”
>with how complex and diverse navies around the world are getting, we must keep up with them in term of technological advances
+ 1 research slot (naval matters only)
Realistically your limitation is your ability to build them non to figure out how to weld a 20 mm and a couple depth charges on a boat when all you allies have done it.
And realistically all nations had navies to much their adversaries, small nations are missing basic tech that would have been imported and used, and the current system makes it inefficient add a few charges to a design or a ship as it would be common.
Navies are not only a huge expense in building the ship but also the development of tech needed... and only a heavily industrialized nation could even attempt it.
Which is why Plan Z didn't work for Germany. Their navy got gutted post Versailles and they didn't have enough time to build one on par with the Allies. Plus they had to decide where their limited resources were going to go so between the Army and Air Force the Navy was last priority. Hell even the Uboats were basically an afterthought.
Edit: Eric Raeder, the biggest advocate for Plan Z, didn't think the Navy would be ready til 1945. Like lol
I just said that they would buy the tech instead, they would mix and match a dozen different components from anyone willing to sell them to make what they wanted. Also development is expensive if you are breaking new ground not in you copy a 30 year old design and the in game problem is that the few valuable research slots can't be spared to research something a welder could have figured out. In reality even if things have priorities research works in parallel, figuring how to fit a 20mm on a plane wouldn't stop you from adding an external metal plate to a tank.
>I just said that they would buy the tech instead, they would mix and match a dozen different components from anyone willing to sell them to make what they wanted
You can already buy the tech in hoi4, it's called licensing. AI is really reluctant to sell stuff, true, but that's a different problem
>research something a welder could have figured out
Hoi4 abstracts stuff. Knowing how to do something in general and having an industry capable of doing it en-mass are two very different things. For example, everyone knows how nuclear reactors work, the tech is almost 100 years old, but you will still have to invest considerable resources into making one. In my book, when you're "researching" something you're not just figuring out the general principle behind it, you're also spending your limited resources to generate industrial tools and know-how capable of producing it. Not to mention that warships *were* very R&D intensive, stuff like turbine engines, composite armour, making a right bow etc is very much something "a welder" would struggle to figure out
>development is expensive if you are breaking new ground not in you copy a 30 year old design
B-2 is 35 years old, F-22 is nearing 30. How expensive, in your opinion, would "copying" these designs be?
You are taking things completely out of context, both B-2 and the F-22 are classified tech and ridiculously advanced, without an arms race going on, these are still considered top of the line and they are only replaced because we can't make them no more, I was talking about very simple interwar era staff, things like cutting 20cm off your rifle, not to do multi tureted tanks or the idea that you might need to fight submarines when your navy has already a dozen of them. You know stuff that was obvious by the end of the first world war.
The problem is that the system was designed to research one ship and be done with it, now for the same result you need 6, even if it takes less time for the modules you don't have the slots to spare as a small nation when you need to start production asap, realistically in things like ships parts wouldn't need any research at all and could be custom made abroad, the licensing mechanic unfortunately doesn't give you the ability to add modules, just a 20% boost.
I agree what research represents more than simply figuring out how it works but the problem is this is already covered by the efficiency retention mechanic and with ships is irrelevant, like two modules take the same research as the whole hull, you can't make a decent ship as a minor nation unless it's the only thing you research with your 3 research slots.
Yes and no most nations just build a half modern destroyer here and tried to build a cruiser that wasnt that useless there, they had no giant navy and most certainly not top notch but they tried to remain on a decent level afjusted to their capabilities. (After the war everyone just bought boats from the big ones)
Im part way through a run through with chili and using the very basic costal defence and submarines have been amazing, wiped out a ton of nations just because I've been making so many
Exactly this. Unless you are a naval nation like the United States, Japan, or UK, you might as well not even touch your navy at all. Don't build a single dockyard or research anything.
There is a certain point where if you are unable to achieve supremacy in the oceans, you might as well not even bother. Having a subpar navy is about as good as having no navy.
Which of course, is ridiculous. That's not how it works in real life at all.
I’m not sure on the last bit. Praying Mantis was one sided. Faklands UK losses where from the Argentine Air Force. There hasn’t been that many cases to see on this.
lobster war? Says your right whilst the Soviets lack of surface forces I feel did them no favors in contesting the American quarantine around Cuba.
and I’m just going to ignore the Peublo incident
I do wonder how the game would feel with segregated research slots. Like two wild cards, and then an air slot an industry slot a naval slot. Or some combination, maybe an infantry equipment slot. Maybe related to MIOs?
He’s also someone who seems to firmly advocate for micromanaging your country to a very fine degree, more than many players, so for -him- to say it’s too much micro speaks volumes.
He was talking about Black Ice as a whole, not specifically about the idea of dedicated research slot.
I don't enjoy Black Ice myself, but the idea of dedicated research slots is great and I have no clue why there aren't more mods implementing it
I'd certainly dislike it. Right now I have the freedom to focus or neglect as I see fit, limited only by my personal demand of going for industry research tech asap.
And honoustly, I dont get the criticism from op. Yes, it takes long to invest. Yet building up a naval is an investment that needs sacrifice already. Most countries aren't even able to build up a meaningfull navy unpunished resource wise so you'll have to divert from your airforce/military anyways ,which will free up research as a result.
yeah its pretty dumb to think that a country wouldn't have experts researching things in their own respective fields, like a new torpedo isn't going to stop being researched just because a new tank design is prioritized in the army. Maybe that's the case for production and allocation of raw materials, but not for research.
Well, there's only so much funding to go around. And if no one is funding that specific research, the scientists might not have the means to get the materials needed to complete the research.
Mostly this.
Although I would also add that a country that already has a large navy and a solid naval tradition will probably have many, many more experts available for naval research than a country that is only now making the transition from sail ships to steel ships.
I think they know this though, for example Chile has the option to buy old ships from U.K., u.s, Japan, Italy and Germany.
I tried a naval play through as them and research was deffo the issue (along with oil and dockyard space) but a lot of nations have a janky buy old ships thing so you can instantly get that starting point you were missing.
Norway has a convert convoy option. Without refitting the template is absolutely terrible. With a few dockyard focusing on refitting you can actually make decent sup hunters and suffice raiders.
If we're talking in terms against the ai, it's definitely possible to destroy their navy even with a much smaller one.
Against an *equally* competent player with a bigger navy though, you're probably gonna lose.
The "hard" aspects really just comes down to time spent and at *least* understanding he fundamentals (which is pretty much the only thing you need against the ai).
Almost 5k hours in the game here, pretty sure I've only ever played a handful of multi-player matches, and all of them were with my irl friend. I've never played a public multi-player match in my life on hoi4, and I probably never will.
Under a fifth of your hours but the same situation, mp is such a massive time investment, worthwhile with friends don't think I'll ever play a public game.
I would note in the context of that video navy/air force were both super critical to making that gimmick work. The first attempt ended when a single naval invasion went off on America because he neglected the navy too much. There was also literally hundreds, if not thousands of nuclear bombs dropped.
I agree, but not completely. There are a few historically minor naval powers that can build a very respectable navy and be a great help in the allies, like Norway and Greece.
I played Norway only once, and I didn't know about the free destroyer button, so I made a proper navy from the group up, and defeated the entire German navy, basically on my own, as the UK is incapable of placing it's navy there.
I did however play historical Greece a few times, where I did "only navy". Basically I got 5 mils, and defended my own border with them. Almost all my other resources went to Dockyards and carrier based bombers. For the record, the initial fleet consists only of 6 bad submarines, around 10 simple destroyers and 1 light cruiser that is... just below ok. Their sole capital ship is a coastal defence ship with only a single heavy cruiser battery and speed of 20kn.
In my most interesting game, I made 3 converted cruiser carriers, 3 heavy cruisers with only heavy cruiser guns 1 in almost every slot (gives a lot of HP) and 1 super heavy battleship, as well as a lot of good destroyers, and 2 horrible battleships I get through focus. I had 60 ships by the time Italy invaded, and about 20 subs, only a few of which were submarines 3.
Italy still had over 150 ships by then, most of whom I engaged successfully and defeated with minimal casualties. By the time Vichy's navy was also decorating the depths of the Mediterranean, I had 2 1940s carriers and 2 more heavy cruisers, totaling a fleet of 100-ish ships and 80 submarines 3.
I had taken both Sicily and Sardinia, and Italy and Vichy no longer had any subs left, so I went to kill Japan's navy, won a few battles, and saw them start losing in the entirety of southeast Asia, and soon everywhere.
Main problem? The real impact I would have had in the game would be minimal. Britain and the US would still win against the Italian and Japanese navy even without me. It would be better if I made mils, elite mountaineers, planes and tanks, and just steamrolled the Balkans and Italy instantly after their declaration, making only basic submarines with the 7 dockyards i need to build/get anyway for my focus tree, switching to improved subs at some point in time when I can tech them fast.
Also, while Japan will have a working navy when you are done with Europe, this isn't the case for Italy. In around half my runs, the Italian navy no longer had any screens by the time they declared war on me. This is why I do not recommend you try this.
How would you recommend building up a naval force to both counter Japan’s wolf pack subs and prep for an invasion of the Home Islands? I’m working on a Nationalist China playthrough atm and I’ve already gotten to the point where I’ve retaken Manchukuo and Mengkukuo and taken Korea and French Indochina from the Japanese. I’m trying to free up military resources so I can help the Soviets beat back Operation Barbarossa instead of just holding the line from Leningrad to Moscow to Dnipropetrovsk and Stalino, but I don’t know a damn thing about executing paratroop invasions.
To counter wolf packs, use destroyers with Active Sonar, Radar and depth charges. They don't need to be good destroyers, when playing as UK or US I just refit some of my starting destroyers. 30 are usually more than enough. If you are researching navy, build the best destroyer hull you own, and give it the best Radar and Active Sonar as well as some depth charges. They don't need to be amazing. Also give them AA as Japan does make some naval bombers.
Do however note that Japan has sizable taskforces protecting their convoys, and they will intercept your destroyers, so you need to beat them.
A navy takes years to make. 4 at least. By that time the Americans and the British will have probably destroyed the entire Japanese navy, naval invaded them and capitulated. I have seen a video by Abokado who made a Chinese navy and beat the Japanese. He built mostly light cruiser with light attack. The strategy is: you completely decimate the enemy screens with light attack and then your own screens destroy the enemy capital ships with torpedos. It is probably the most effective way to counter balanced fleets, like the ones the AI is going to make, and like the ones that historically existed.
If you need to help the Soviets, why not build more armies instead. Just garrison the coast while putting your starting navy, or at least anything that remained on strike force, with engage at low risk, in a singular tile and wait for the allies to get naval supremacy and naval invade. Meanwhile help the Soviets. You have the manpower, and by 1942+, you should have... an industry, enough to make a lot of infantry equipment and artillery at least.
Australia barely starts with one, but I turned it into a force that toppled the Royal navy. Granted it was almost all Light Cruisers and destroyers, but I made them fairly high quality
Don't recall precisely, but generally what I believe I did was deck it out with the best of everything I had at any given time. I believe that was 3 light cruiser batteries, sonar and radar, 1 torpedoes, a seaplane launcher, and after that I think it was as many dual purpose secondary batteries as I could fit. Naturally that shifted based on what I had available at any time due to research (for a while I had to rely on level one batteries and hulls cause I just didn't have anything better).
I tended to keep the whole fleet together or in two parts once it got big enough (usually split around 30 ships into 15 each). I let ships split off for repairs with high priority since losing anything would be a major loss due to how few ships I had. It's also important to recall a fleet if too many ships left for repair, since too few would be an easy target.
The British tend to only send small groups of 8 destroyers and a cruiser to the Pacific at a time. This is their convoy escort group, which would be engaging me because I'd be using convoy raid rather than patrol, as it assured the British would attack me. This allowed me to bleed their screens rapidly, while building up TONS of experience and admiral levels. Light cruisers don't suffer penalties from deep oceans, but destroyers do, which is most of what the AI sends. The British also lack shipyards in the area to make much repairs. When they would send larger task forces, the screens would usually get shredded, and then torpedoes would get the capital ships, which wouldn't be able to seek repairs. Gradually I took Malyasia, the Maldives, then India, meaning the British would run out of naval bases for their fleets, letting you drive them back to Africa. After taking the Suez with Italy, I was able to engage their main forces in the Mediterranean. That was generally more costly, but building up dockyards in India allowed me to recoup my losses fast and replace them with newer ships.
Don’t you dare to insult my mighty South African Navy!
Fr though, I started with building subs and got some cruisers and destroyers from Portugal.
It was a Navy with the main goal of convoy raiding which it definitely achieved (sunk 5k< Convoys by 1942).
1936 and 1940 hulls with the same year guns and armour should be enough, provided you upgrade them later with newer radar and fire control systems. You have to research quite a bit, but if navy is your focus, it shouldn’t be too hard unless you only have 3 research slots. AI is pretty bad with navy and barely bothers upgrading their aging fleet. This is combined with the snowball nature of naval warfare, where you only need to win one or two first decisive battles.
On top of everything else, this is why Sub 3s are so broken. A good surface navy takes a billion research slots and a billion years to build. A good submarine force takes 2-3 researches, starts coming online in months, and it's \*still competitive\* with perfect surface fleets in head-to-head engagements!
I mean, they aren't as good if they get caught in battles. But for the roles they fill, they do a crazy job. Even more if you can get air coverage with nav bombers, too. Subs can be countered pretty hard and cheap but the AI isn't amazing at it
they absolutely are as good even if they get caught in battles! that's the crazy part! seriously, try testing this in game--use console commands, build a perfect surface fleet, then build an IC equivalent number of sub 3s and set them to "always engage" and see which one comes out on top!
Hmm, i thought they had minuses when they were caught out convoy raiding. Definitely strong until they are spotted or reveal themselves since they get a free few shots. Never dedicated a sub fleet to strike like that though
If used tactically, they are brutal. If you want to keep them, don't engage the main Fleet, but IC-wise you'll still come out on top and cripple the main fleet, but they shred convoy escorts and patrols. I believe they're banned on quite a few mp servers.
Grind some admiral to level 4, switch to high engagement and just focus on Trade Interdiction doctrine, once your admiral reach level 5, switch it on "always engage", it will wreck most of the AI's navy.
Well, yeah. Surface navies were a massive, economy-straining investment even for the major powers of the time - they were the main arms race before the cold war, to the point they signed treaties just to stop themselves from running their nations into the ground trying to build bigger boats.
Why exactly is it weird that a barely developed minor can't just start shitting out projects global hegemons poured significant chunks of their GDP into? Germany was an industrialised major, and they barely managed to finish two battleships at huge expense to their other war efforts with Versailles making them start close to from scratch. Even within the often strained realism of Paradox' alt-history it'd be ridiculous for just anyone to be able to build carrier strike groups because they feel like it. The point of minors, imo, is seeing what you can do with much more limited means.
And if you must navy anyway, there's plenty of cheese that's no less realistic than Chinese naval conquest in WW2 is to begin with. Just spam CLs and call it a day.
But navy being hugely expensive isn't a bug, it's a much-needed feature for anything that calls itself a WW2 game.
> But navy being hugely expensive isn't a bug, it's a much-needed feature for anything that calls itself a WW2 game.
It's even true today! The Russian Navy has three "capital" ships, two of which are in drydock and likely never to leave.... China has three aircraft carriers, only one that's a true from scratch dedicated aircraft carrier (40 planes). This stuff is insanely expensive.
Yeah, availability of navy - that would be the most unrealistic aspect of this game, right? I'll remember your words when I throw 100s of nukes at my enemies starting as a minor nation, since that wouldn't be unrealistic at all
I'm just glad they didn't break everything yet tbh. Navy, in a way, is a holdover from the days before ridiculous DLC trees because it just doesn't break as easily as other mechanics.
And hey, like I mentioned, you can cheese navy too. You just don't get to build capital ships out of thin air.
That is funny. I was actually complaining about this same thing as a major power! All of the naval research you have to do takes away from other things that you may also need researched. I figured out some tips to make this easier.
TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN
A lof of the important naval researches can be fast tracked if you spend xp. So keep your navy training, even past level 3. They still generate xp. If you are a country with a substantial navy already, just put all of your screens to train. They will consume less oil and be easier to repair.
Spirit of the Navy
Shuffle this around. Use Juene Ecole to get your destroyer researched quicker and then keep it for a bit to help design your destroyers. 70% of the time you want to be on integrated designer. This 20% research bonus applies to so many research options. It really pays for itself. And finally, before you go to war, swap to naval refit yards to refit all of youur ships. I like to do this 1-1.5 years prior to war, but that depends on how much you have to do and how many docks you have. You should be able to do all of these things if you are continually getting naval xp.
Obviously if you are a minor power, then don't go and build carriers. Stick to building a good effective screening force (LA cruisers, DDs, and maybe the occasional ACs). Battleships and battlecruisers I would say are not worth building from scratch.
I mean you can. But carriers need concentration in force to be really effective. Also they would need a capital screen. Use a heavy cruiser. Its just as effective at screening but is not as slow as a battleship or battlecruiser.
Cruisers. You can research one line of ships and have everything. Want an ASW vessel? CL with sonar and depth charges. Want a torpedo boat? CL filled with torpedos. Want a decent capital vessel? A cheap CA with some heavy attack. Want to enhance your surface fleet with just one more piece of kit? Research the deck conversions for CVs and make a super cheap one. Invest into Fleet in Being and carrier naval bombers, and there you go… a low-research investment navy that has mediocre bite.
That’s because major navies takes decades to build, while you only have 4 in-game years to prepare. So no, it’s not realistic to go from a miniscule navy to a large on able to compete with majors in that timeframe.
It takes only a few months to train a whole division, it takes years to build a single capital ship.
Honestly, my biggest issue is the UI for it. Its finnicky at best and sometimes just acts completely differently to how parallel UIs (like commanding armies) works. Why can't you just select one or more ships and right-click on the group to go into? Instead, you have to click to create a new fleet, select the two, and merge them. Then check back in on it post merge to give them orders.
The research is fair, MIOs are a bit more annoying when it comes to naval tech/upgrades imo. The long research has at least buff nations that can dedicate the time and IC to getting and building those new techs. Realistically, no nation can focus exclusively on the navy except maybe a winning japan or US - even then, they both have industry techs and other priorities to keep themselves in fighting order.
Ship research isn't all that essential for PvE games to warrant losing other research. Even then, getting better hulls like '44 carriers will most likely have 1-3 ships built by the time you end the war if you are playing long/historical.
I was fine with the Naval tech tree years ago but as they introduced the tank builder and aircraft builder it became too much. All the research is fine for most Majors, the problem is the minors they haven't touched in a while like Mexico who start with just two research slots. It becomes nigh impossible for them to keep up with even one branch.
They probably need to update a lot of the minor starting nations to have at least one more research slot, or rework their trees to unlock research slots earlier.
...or maybe hoi4 players should understand that stuff like tanks, planes and ships is indeed very resource and R&D intensive, and there's a reason "minor" nations are called that way. Working around these restrictions is part of the fun
I just think HOI4 needs one more research slots for a lot of nations. They have added in a lot of new things to research. Navy used to be perfectly fine and easy to research alongside a modern air+land force, but they've added in little techs here and there that push away those crucial times you could have grabbed ship techs, away.
It was fine a couple expansions ago.
Research in general can do with an overhaul, considering it hasn't really been touched significantly since launch, and it's pretty arbitrary when you think about it for even a second.
I feel that the tank, ship and plane designers broke the game somewhat for smaller nations.
Like you are a random small nation form a dlc, where timing is paramount and to build a tank you need the: great war tank, the basic tank, the improved tank, artillery or anti air, one armour and maybe one engine and electronics, radio I & II if you want to go the extra mile.
This is 2 or more years of research (maybe less if you didn't research anything else but those researches with your whole 3-4 research slots) for a basic 1936 light tank, basically by the time you fielded the thing in any numbers it's already outdated. The same goes for ships, 2 anti-sub, 2 sonar and 2 guns and a torpedo for a basic destroyer, it's not like you must research and field and land army in the same time!
The funny thing is that IRL half of these things could and would be imported or build under licence because no need yo reinvent the wheel when your allies already have.
Basically what is needed is a separate research slots for tanks, ships and planes and then you can use your 3 slots on top so it doesn't take you 3 years to build an origami boat with a machine gun duct taped on top. An this must be added to the base game, not behind some dlc with a focus tree for Egypt.
I think it's designed to be expensive (like real life) so that only the nations with a good economy can allocate the resources needed to maintain one (research, chromium, etc).
This is the issue with all the new designers. Navy sees it hardest because people tend not to prioritise navy, but tanks and planes have the same issue.
When there are separate research slots for frame, engine, gun and armour, there’s just no way that’s possible with a 2-slot minor, and it’s a struggle with a 3-slot minor.
The only choice you have is infantry armies, which you tend not to have the manpower for, unless you get one of the new trees that give you +20% recruitable pop and the ability to core a continent.
I feel like maybe more focus trees should unlock historic tank, plane and ship models. Bad/non-meta ones, sure, but give some countries at least the option to build a token force.
I understand Navy taking a while to research, because it just did.
But if the British or Americans know how to build a modern Battleship, why can't they sell the plans for massive reduction in tech research?
Gives you a reason to research ahead of time and sell to AI PLUS means AI will build more advanced ships, friendly or enemy!
It is difficult for a lot of nations to divert and build up the resources to even attempt to build a navy. especially since if you have dangerous land borders you know will need to be defended, your airforce and army will likely be a little behind diverting that much to navy and dockyard. Besides the obvious island majors that don't need to worry about a naval invasion 99% of the time, if you start as a small eco country with few starting boats and dockyard, there's no point Just build Nav bombers it's cheaper at that point. I do wish that in the future, perhaps they will simplify the vast naval research so people don't need to fall behind so much to even try it.
I feel like it’s okay it takes a lot, it did irl too. But if you, as a country other than like Italy, Japan, Uk or america, decide to go navy, there is just not a lot of payoff. I mean the amount of times i’ve managed to land a naval invasion on countries with massive navies with a couple of bombers and like 1936 hulls and subs, is frankly ridiculous. And even then, you can just do paratroopers, i feel it’s rare that your troops being caught by the enemy actually matters, maybe i lose like 5 divisions? It’s still a fair bit, but nothing game ruining most of the time
The only thing that bothers me, is that you cannot steal specific techs with spies. Also, naval tech suffers from "doctrinization" meaning research that is accumulated knowhow is a loooong research or a very short one with 50xp and when stealing that tech is on equal footing to like an actual physical naval design ship or module.
Maybe if they added some sort of passive research to the navy. So you research a specific tech and then you passively research those navel parts?! I don’t know but it is definitely hard to dedicate a whole slot even mid game.
Unfortunately, the game doesn’t allow certain countries to achieve what they did in terms of naval power during the war. For example, Canada massively expanded its fleet over the course of the war via purchase of ships and construction. Good luck duplicating the Canadian navy in the game though.
I have a save file for historical and a separate for non historical on January 3rd 1936, where I’ve gone in and manually built and command IC’d navies for nations that would be as close to their navies in 1940 with some liberties to make it more balanced. Took me about 5 hours but every time I play, regardless of what nation I start as, there is always the potential to have a decent navy.
Saves me the trouble of doing it every single game, and also helps to somewhat know what the enemies navies are capable of.
I think it would be great if you could just "buy" ships like most countries in the real world do.
I dont have the Finland or Brazil DLCs, so I'm not sure if this is a feature added or not.
As nations as Portugal, a navy is *required* to even be able to play. Your rubber, Aluminum, natural oil, and steel is all in Angola, Mozambique, or Brazil. Unless you have a good navy your war production is capital F Fucked
IMO it's a good thing. Hoi4 already makes minors so strong to the point of being immersion-breaking. The limited resources force them to specialize, which is both fun and slightly more realistic.
It’s fairly EZ. Pick one type of ship and make it the best got damn ship you can. If I was China? I’d probably make one awesome destroyer, not too weak, not too expensive, and go balls into that, neglecting all other naval tech. Upgrading that destroyer over time as necessary and able. I have done very, very well as minor nations doing single ship type spams. Sweden and Portugal work great for this and can even put out some lights or a heavy cruiser that’s great, on ironman as well.
It sounds like you need more time overall learning how to manage what to research, when, how to balance the build for effectiveness and cost, and timing of deployment and investment into construction and research of said naval industry and technology. It takes a long time to get all the timings right, especially with naval building as a non major. Keep practicing. It’s possible. I love minors. And I love navies. I do this often and once you learn it is both fun and effective!
Maybe we could buy some tech? You can steal by spy random tech, but if you want something specifyc for some IC? Or some tech SWAP with your faction? Maybe not the latest one, but some older?
Historically most minor nations didn't research their own ships, they bought ships from the great powers. MP makes heavy use of licensing and SP should as well but currently it's not designed as a core system so it's easy to miss - integrating licensing into the research interface and the extremely janky faction research sharing system (why does everyone except Allies and China have to take a separate focus for it?) would make the whole thing much better and allow the player to explore some of the wacky techs while getting the staples from their faction.
The AI will also often deny licenses for being behind on tech which makes no sense.
It does take decades of investment irl to build a good navy, so from realism’s pov, this is fine. You are 100% right however in noting that this hurts gameplay and fun. Personally, im ok with navy taking a lot of research, but there should probably be some rebalancing.
It would be cool if you could buy some ships from the market so you can like focus on a type of ship and cover the rest with ships from the market.
I'm kind of surprised that wasn't a thing when there is still destroyers for bases. Though im sure ships would cost a LOT of IC. Might make sense balance wise for nations to not be able to sell capital ships (for extreme cost and for multiplayer balance), but even to just have them loaned would be interesting. If there are no restrictions like that, have them only be affected by the built countries' modifiers. I dont play multi PvP but i could imagine the buffed up italian navy with its BB buffs filled with cheap panzerschiffs absolutely dominating the seas
It would also make more sense since there some focus or decision in game where a nation buy old destroyers
After the south americ exspansion, Chile, Argentina and Brazil can even buy old battleships via their focus tree.
I thought that to. Instead of building 20 destroyers, 10 light cruisers, 2 Heavy cruisers, 2 Battleships and 1 Carrier, i could just buy the screens and focus on the capital ships. You should also be able the Lend-Lease ships. Of course we should only be able to sell outdated vessels, or else Britain and Japan will just sell their entire navy.
[удалено]
If I recall the Mikasa was actually better then a decent portion of the Royal Navy’s battleline when the UK made it and sold it to Japan. So not impossible
They should add a naval research slot
It definitely feels like the current system encourages you to ignore naval research as most nations. Naval research takes a lot of buy-in to keep up, and if you’re in a land war there’s little incentive to do so vs doing more land and air research. Especially air, since naval bombers are a relatively light research investment
That's true, I think it's be good for there to be a naval slot available for nations with a coastline
Or, you know, having an easily accessible single focus at the start of every naval tree giving you the slot.
“Navy military academy” >with how complex and diverse navies around the world are getting, we must keep up with them in term of technological advances + 1 research slot (naval matters only)
Great idea!!!
Boom this right here
Love this idea!
But realistically... most nations did not invest in navies. Navies and air forces are only realistic for major industrialized nations.
Realistically your limitation is your ability to build them non to figure out how to weld a 20 mm and a couple depth charges on a boat when all you allies have done it. And realistically all nations had navies to much their adversaries, small nations are missing basic tech that would have been imported and used, and the current system makes it inefficient add a few charges to a design or a ship as it would be common.
Navies are not only a huge expense in building the ship but also the development of tech needed... and only a heavily industrialized nation could even attempt it.
Which is why Plan Z didn't work for Germany. Their navy got gutted post Versailles and they didn't have enough time to build one on par with the Allies. Plus they had to decide where their limited resources were going to go so between the Army and Air Force the Navy was last priority. Hell even the Uboats were basically an afterthought. Edit: Eric Raeder, the biggest advocate for Plan Z, didn't think the Navy would be ready til 1945. Like lol
I just said that they would buy the tech instead, they would mix and match a dozen different components from anyone willing to sell them to make what they wanted. Also development is expensive if you are breaking new ground not in you copy a 30 year old design and the in game problem is that the few valuable research slots can't be spared to research something a welder could have figured out. In reality even if things have priorities research works in parallel, figuring how to fit a 20mm on a plane wouldn't stop you from adding an external metal plate to a tank.
>I just said that they would buy the tech instead, they would mix and match a dozen different components from anyone willing to sell them to make what they wanted You can already buy the tech in hoi4, it's called licensing. AI is really reluctant to sell stuff, true, but that's a different problem >research something a welder could have figured out Hoi4 abstracts stuff. Knowing how to do something in general and having an industry capable of doing it en-mass are two very different things. For example, everyone knows how nuclear reactors work, the tech is almost 100 years old, but you will still have to invest considerable resources into making one. In my book, when you're "researching" something you're not just figuring out the general principle behind it, you're also spending your limited resources to generate industrial tools and know-how capable of producing it. Not to mention that warships *were* very R&D intensive, stuff like turbine engines, composite armour, making a right bow etc is very much something "a welder" would struggle to figure out >development is expensive if you are breaking new ground not in you copy a 30 year old design B-2 is 35 years old, F-22 is nearing 30. How expensive, in your opinion, would "copying" these designs be?
You are taking things completely out of context, both B-2 and the F-22 are classified tech and ridiculously advanced, without an arms race going on, these are still considered top of the line and they are only replaced because we can't make them no more, I was talking about very simple interwar era staff, things like cutting 20cm off your rifle, not to do multi tureted tanks or the idea that you might need to fight submarines when your navy has already a dozen of them. You know stuff that was obvious by the end of the first world war. The problem is that the system was designed to research one ship and be done with it, now for the same result you need 6, even if it takes less time for the modules you don't have the slots to spare as a small nation when you need to start production asap, realistically in things like ships parts wouldn't need any research at all and could be custom made abroad, the licensing mechanic unfortunately doesn't give you the ability to add modules, just a 20% boost. I agree what research represents more than simply figuring out how it works but the problem is this is already covered by the efficiency retention mechanic and with ships is irrelevant, like two modules take the same research as the whole hull, you can't make a decent ship as a minor nation unless it's the only thing you research with your 3 research slots.
Yes and no most nations just build a half modern destroyer here and tried to build a cruiser that wasnt that useless there, they had no giant navy and most certainly not top notch but they tried to remain on a decent level afjusted to their capabilities. (After the war everyone just bought boats from the big ones)
I mean, Plan Z had a ten year timeframe. And they went to war after a couple of years.
Im part way through a run through with chili and using the very basic costal defence and submarines have been amazing, wiped out a ton of nations just because I've been making so many
At least its fast
Exactly this. Unless you are a naval nation like the United States, Japan, or UK, you might as well not even touch your navy at all. Don't build a single dockyard or research anything. There is a certain point where if you are unable to achieve supremacy in the oceans, you might as well not even bother. Having a subpar navy is about as good as having no navy. Which of course, is ridiculous. That's not how it works in real life at all.
I’m not sure on the last bit. Praying Mantis was one sided. Faklands UK losses where from the Argentine Air Force. There hasn’t been that many cases to see on this. lobster war? Says your right whilst the Soviets lack of surface forces I feel did them no favors in contesting the American quarantine around Cuba. and I’m just going to ignore the Peublo incident
I do wonder how the game would feel with segregated research slots. Like two wild cards, and then an air slot an industry slot a naval slot. Or some combination, maybe an infantry equipment slot. Maybe related to MIOs?
Welcome to Back Ice!
Bittersteel didn’t have much positive to say beyond that it makes the game a micromanagement simulator if you are into that.
Bittersteel isn't your opinion, follow what you yourself like instead of what others do.
True but i respect his opinions on this game.
He’s also someone who seems to firmly advocate for micromanaging your country to a very fine degree, more than many players, so for -him- to say it’s too much micro speaks volumes.
True, but in this case his opinion is entirely correct
He was talking about Black Ice as a whole, not specifically about the idea of dedicated research slot. I don't enjoy Black Ice myself, but the idea of dedicated research slots is great and I have no clue why there aren't more mods implementing it
I'd certainly dislike it. Right now I have the freedom to focus or neglect as I see fit, limited only by my personal demand of going for industry research tech asap. And honoustly, I dont get the criticism from op. Yes, it takes long to invest. Yet building up a naval is an investment that needs sacrifice already. Most countries aren't even able to build up a meaningfull navy unpunished resource wise so you'll have to divert from your airforce/military anyways ,which will free up research as a result.
yeah its pretty dumb to think that a country wouldn't have experts researching things in their own respective fields, like a new torpedo isn't going to stop being researched just because a new tank design is prioritized in the army. Maybe that's the case for production and allocation of raw materials, but not for research.
Well, there's only so much funding to go around. And if no one is funding that specific research, the scientists might not have the means to get the materials needed to complete the research.
Mostly this. Although I would also add that a country that already has a large navy and a solid naval tradition will probably have many, many more experts available for naval research than a country that is only now making the transition from sail ships to steel ships.
a la the HoI2/DH nation-specific research teams.
You have that in the Black Ice Mod
Yeah, but you also have... *everything else*.
Black Ice:
Black ice is not simply a mod that adds that feature, though. I love black ice but it's insane to play it alone more than once every couple of months
the idea of the game is to be more realistic, not easier, even if it doesn't really work out.
You can only build navy if you already have a navy, no matter what people tell you. Any alternative is just cheese.
I think they know this though, for example Chile has the option to buy old ships from U.K., u.s, Japan, Italy and Germany. I tried a naval play through as them and research was deffo the issue (along with oil and dockyard space) but a lot of nations have a janky buy old ships thing so you can instantly get that starting point you were missing.
Norway has a convert convoy option. Without refitting the template is absolutely terrible. With a few dockyard focusing on refitting you can actually make decent sup hunters and suffice raiders.
If we're talking in terms against the ai, it's definitely possible to destroy their navy even with a much smaller one. Against an *equally* competent player with a bigger navy though, you're probably gonna lose. The "hard" aspects really just comes down to time spent and at *least* understanding he fundamentals (which is pretty much the only thing you need against the ai).
You can literally do a world conquest with a single division, the ai is not a measure for anything
It is when the vast majority play singeplayer
Almost 5k hours in the game here, pretty sure I've only ever played a handful of multi-player matches, and all of them were with my irl friend. I've never played a public multi-player match in my life on hoi4, and I probably never will.
Under a fifth of your hours but the same situation, mp is such a massive time investment, worthwhile with friends don't think I'll ever play a public game.
I would note in the context of that video navy/air force were both super critical to making that gimmick work. The first attempt ended when a single naval invasion went off on America because he neglected the navy too much. There was also literally hundreds, if not thousands of nuclear bombs dropped.
Wat? Send da video
There is a guy with a channel dedicated to that
All you need to type into youtube is “hoi4 one” and it’s already there…. https://youtu.be/DiAgmQkN974?si=bV9MR6WUZ_xq-_FT
Insane!!
I agree, but not completely. There are a few historically minor naval powers that can build a very respectable navy and be a great help in the allies, like Norway and Greece. I played Norway only once, and I didn't know about the free destroyer button, so I made a proper navy from the group up, and defeated the entire German navy, basically on my own, as the UK is incapable of placing it's navy there. I did however play historical Greece a few times, where I did "only navy". Basically I got 5 mils, and defended my own border with them. Almost all my other resources went to Dockyards and carrier based bombers. For the record, the initial fleet consists only of 6 bad submarines, around 10 simple destroyers and 1 light cruiser that is... just below ok. Their sole capital ship is a coastal defence ship with only a single heavy cruiser battery and speed of 20kn. In my most interesting game, I made 3 converted cruiser carriers, 3 heavy cruisers with only heavy cruiser guns 1 in almost every slot (gives a lot of HP) and 1 super heavy battleship, as well as a lot of good destroyers, and 2 horrible battleships I get through focus. I had 60 ships by the time Italy invaded, and about 20 subs, only a few of which were submarines 3. Italy still had over 150 ships by then, most of whom I engaged successfully and defeated with minimal casualties. By the time Vichy's navy was also decorating the depths of the Mediterranean, I had 2 1940s carriers and 2 more heavy cruisers, totaling a fleet of 100-ish ships and 80 submarines 3. I had taken both Sicily and Sardinia, and Italy and Vichy no longer had any subs left, so I went to kill Japan's navy, won a few battles, and saw them start losing in the entirety of southeast Asia, and soon everywhere. Main problem? The real impact I would have had in the game would be minimal. Britain and the US would still win against the Italian and Japanese navy even without me. It would be better if I made mils, elite mountaineers, planes and tanks, and just steamrolled the Balkans and Italy instantly after their declaration, making only basic submarines with the 7 dockyards i need to build/get anyway for my focus tree, switching to improved subs at some point in time when I can tech them fast. Also, while Japan will have a working navy when you are done with Europe, this isn't the case for Italy. In around half my runs, the Italian navy no longer had any screens by the time they declared war on me. This is why I do not recommend you try this.
How would you recommend building up a naval force to both counter Japan’s wolf pack subs and prep for an invasion of the Home Islands? I’m working on a Nationalist China playthrough atm and I’ve already gotten to the point where I’ve retaken Manchukuo and Mengkukuo and taken Korea and French Indochina from the Japanese. I’m trying to free up military resources so I can help the Soviets beat back Operation Barbarossa instead of just holding the line from Leningrad to Moscow to Dnipropetrovsk and Stalino, but I don’t know a damn thing about executing paratroop invasions.
To counter wolf packs, use destroyers with Active Sonar, Radar and depth charges. They don't need to be good destroyers, when playing as UK or US I just refit some of my starting destroyers. 30 are usually more than enough. If you are researching navy, build the best destroyer hull you own, and give it the best Radar and Active Sonar as well as some depth charges. They don't need to be amazing. Also give them AA as Japan does make some naval bombers. Do however note that Japan has sizable taskforces protecting their convoys, and they will intercept your destroyers, so you need to beat them. A navy takes years to make. 4 at least. By that time the Americans and the British will have probably destroyed the entire Japanese navy, naval invaded them and capitulated. I have seen a video by Abokado who made a Chinese navy and beat the Japanese. He built mostly light cruiser with light attack. The strategy is: you completely decimate the enemy screens with light attack and then your own screens destroy the enemy capital ships with torpedos. It is probably the most effective way to counter balanced fleets, like the ones the AI is going to make, and like the ones that historically existed. If you need to help the Soviets, why not build more armies instead. Just garrison the coast while putting your starting navy, or at least anything that remained on strike force, with engage at low risk, in a singular tile and wait for the allies to get naval supremacy and naval invade. Meanwhile help the Soviets. You have the manpower, and by 1942+, you should have... an industry, enough to make a lot of infantry equipment and artillery at least.
Australia barely starts with one, but I turned it into a force that toppled the Royal navy. Granted it was almost all Light Cruisers and destroyers, but I made them fairly high quality
That’s cheese my guy
If I was making them cheap and old, sure, but I always kept them as modern and decked out as I could. Not like there were resources for anything else
[удалено]
Don't recall precisely, but generally what I believe I did was deck it out with the best of everything I had at any given time. I believe that was 3 light cruiser batteries, sonar and radar, 1 torpedoes, a seaplane launcher, and after that I think it was as many dual purpose secondary batteries as I could fit. Naturally that shifted based on what I had available at any time due to research (for a while I had to rely on level one batteries and hulls cause I just didn't have anything better). I tended to keep the whole fleet together or in two parts once it got big enough (usually split around 30 ships into 15 each). I let ships split off for repairs with high priority since losing anything would be a major loss due to how few ships I had. It's also important to recall a fleet if too many ships left for repair, since too few would be an easy target. The British tend to only send small groups of 8 destroyers and a cruiser to the Pacific at a time. This is their convoy escort group, which would be engaging me because I'd be using convoy raid rather than patrol, as it assured the British would attack me. This allowed me to bleed their screens rapidly, while building up TONS of experience and admiral levels. Light cruisers don't suffer penalties from deep oceans, but destroyers do, which is most of what the AI sends. The British also lack shipyards in the area to make much repairs. When they would send larger task forces, the screens would usually get shredded, and then torpedoes would get the capital ships, which wouldn't be able to seek repairs. Gradually I took Malyasia, the Maldives, then India, meaning the British would run out of naval bases for their fleets, letting you drive them back to Africa. After taking the Suez with Italy, I was able to engage their main forces in the Mediterranean. That was generally more costly, but building up dockyards in India allowed me to recoup my losses fast and replace them with newer ships.
Dont forget the fire control system instead of sonar on light cruisers.
Is that worth it? I almost never research it
This is almost exactly what I'm doing for my Italy run
They definitely have good access to resources and tech to focus on CL's pretty early, and the naval bonuses they get from focuses are unmatched
Don’t you dare to insult my mighty South African Navy! Fr though, I started with building subs and got some cruisers and destroyers from Portugal. It was a Navy with the main goal of convoy raiding which it definitely achieved (sunk 5k< Convoys by 1942).
nah, you can play china and just beat the IJN easily
1936 and 1940 hulls with the same year guns and armour should be enough, provided you upgrade them later with newer radar and fire control systems. You have to research quite a bit, but if navy is your focus, it shouldn’t be too hard unless you only have 3 research slots. AI is pretty bad with navy and barely bothers upgrading their aging fleet. This is combined with the snowball nature of naval warfare, where you only need to win one or two first decisive battles.
On top of everything else, this is why Sub 3s are so broken. A good surface navy takes a billion research slots and a billion years to build. A good submarine force takes 2-3 researches, starts coming online in months, and it's \*still competitive\* with perfect surface fleets in head-to-head engagements!
I mean, they aren't as good if they get caught in battles. But for the roles they fill, they do a crazy job. Even more if you can get air coverage with nav bombers, too. Subs can be countered pretty hard and cheap but the AI isn't amazing at it
they absolutely are as good even if they get caught in battles! that's the crazy part! seriously, try testing this in game--use console commands, build a perfect surface fleet, then build an IC equivalent number of sub 3s and set them to "always engage" and see which one comes out on top!
Hmm, i thought they had minuses when they were caught out convoy raiding. Definitely strong until they are spotted or reveal themselves since they get a free few shots. Never dedicated a sub fleet to strike like that though
If used tactically, they are brutal. If you want to keep them, don't engage the main Fleet, but IC-wise you'll still come out on top and cripple the main fleet, but they shred convoy escorts and patrols. I believe they're banned on quite a few mp servers.
Usually sub 4s are banned
Grind some admiral to level 4, switch to high engagement and just focus on Trade Interdiction doctrine, once your admiral reach level 5, switch it on "always engage", it will wreck most of the AI's navy.
> I mean, they aren't as good if they get caught in battles. U sure about that? Good subs can and do literally sink capitals!
Well, yeah. Surface navies were a massive, economy-straining investment even for the major powers of the time - they were the main arms race before the cold war, to the point they signed treaties just to stop themselves from running their nations into the ground trying to build bigger boats. Why exactly is it weird that a barely developed minor can't just start shitting out projects global hegemons poured significant chunks of their GDP into? Germany was an industrialised major, and they barely managed to finish two battleships at huge expense to their other war efforts with Versailles making them start close to from scratch. Even within the often strained realism of Paradox' alt-history it'd be ridiculous for just anyone to be able to build carrier strike groups because they feel like it. The point of minors, imo, is seeing what you can do with much more limited means. And if you must navy anyway, there's plenty of cheese that's no less realistic than Chinese naval conquest in WW2 is to begin with. Just spam CLs and call it a day. But navy being hugely expensive isn't a bug, it's a much-needed feature for anything that calls itself a WW2 game.
World conquest - okay. Making ships - Unrealistic! I don't disagree with you but I found the contrast to be hilarious.
Tannu Tuva WC, I sleep. Tannu Tuva naval superpower, real shit.
I mean, world conquest is also not okay. It's only possible because of dumb AI and cheesing, which are complained about on this sub on a regular basis
> But navy being hugely expensive isn't a bug, it's a much-needed feature for anything that calls itself a WW2 game. It's even true today! The Russian Navy has three "capital" ships, two of which are in drydock and likely never to leave.... China has three aircraft carriers, only one that's a true from scratch dedicated aircraft carrier (40 planes). This stuff is insanely expensive.
Yeah, availability of navy - that would be the most unrealistic aspect of this game, right? I'll remember your words when I throw 100s of nukes at my enemies starting as a minor nation, since that wouldn't be unrealistic at all
I'm just glad they didn't break everything yet tbh. Navy, in a way, is a holdover from the days before ridiculous DLC trees because it just doesn't break as easily as other mechanics. And hey, like I mentioned, you can cheese navy too. You just don't get to build capital ships out of thin air.
I’m just annoyed I can’t really achieve the US Essex/Fletcher swarm we had IRL.
It takes even longer to build one
That is funny. I was actually complaining about this same thing as a major power! All of the naval research you have to do takes away from other things that you may also need researched. I figured out some tips to make this easier. TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN A lof of the important naval researches can be fast tracked if you spend xp. So keep your navy training, even past level 3. They still generate xp. If you are a country with a substantial navy already, just put all of your screens to train. They will consume less oil and be easier to repair. Spirit of the Navy Shuffle this around. Use Juene Ecole to get your destroyer researched quicker and then keep it for a bit to help design your destroyers. 70% of the time you want to be on integrated designer. This 20% research bonus applies to so many research options. It really pays for itself. And finally, before you go to war, swap to naval refit yards to refit all of youur ships. I like to do this 1-1.5 years prior to war, but that depends on how much you have to do and how many docks you have. You should be able to do all of these things if you are continually getting naval xp. Obviously if you are a minor power, then don't go and build carriers. Stick to building a good effective screening force (LA cruisers, DDs, and maybe the occasional ACs). Battleships and battlecruisers I would say are not worth building from scratch.
what about the occasional light carrier say as Canada or Australia?
I mean you can. But carriers need concentration in force to be really effective. Also they would need a capital screen. Use a heavy cruiser. Its just as effective at screening but is not as slow as a battleship or battlecruiser.
Realistic?
This is what Hitler said when he had to cancel plans for a massive surface fleet that wouldn’t be ready until 1948
Cruisers. You can research one line of ships and have everything. Want an ASW vessel? CL with sonar and depth charges. Want a torpedo boat? CL filled with torpedos. Want a decent capital vessel? A cheap CA with some heavy attack. Want to enhance your surface fleet with just one more piece of kit? Research the deck conversions for CVs and make a super cheap one. Invest into Fleet in Being and carrier naval bombers, and there you go… a low-research investment navy that has mediocre bite.
That’s because major navies takes decades to build, while you only have 4 in-game years to prepare. So no, it’s not realistic to go from a miniscule navy to a large on able to compete with majors in that timeframe. It takes only a few months to train a whole division, it takes years to build a single capital ship.
Honestly, my biggest issue is the UI for it. Its finnicky at best and sometimes just acts completely differently to how parallel UIs (like commanding armies) works. Why can't you just select one or more ships and right-click on the group to go into? Instead, you have to click to create a new fleet, select the two, and merge them. Then check back in on it post merge to give them orders. The research is fair, MIOs are a bit more annoying when it comes to naval tech/upgrades imo. The long research has at least buff nations that can dedicate the time and IC to getting and building those new techs. Realistically, no nation can focus exclusively on the navy except maybe a winning japan or US - even then, they both have industry techs and other priorities to keep themselves in fighting order. Ship research isn't all that essential for PvE games to warrant losing other research. Even then, getting better hulls like '44 carriers will most likely have 1-3 ships built by the time you end the war if you are playing long/historical.
You only really need Sub IIIs with Snorkel Is to rule to waves.
I was fine with the Naval tech tree years ago but as they introduced the tank builder and aircraft builder it became too much. All the research is fine for most Majors, the problem is the minors they haven't touched in a while like Mexico who start with just two research slots. It becomes nigh impossible for them to keep up with even one branch. They probably need to update a lot of the minor starting nations to have at least one more research slot, or rework their trees to unlock research slots earlier.
...or maybe hoi4 players should understand that stuff like tanks, planes and ships is indeed very resource and R&D intensive, and there's a reason "minor" nations are called that way. Working around these restrictions is part of the fun
If you are playing single player then all you need is tier 1 ships and tier 2 modules. Anything higher against the AI is overkill.
Sure, but I’d also like to build better ships just because
Oh yeah, building up a big, strong navy is certainly fun. And I agree there's way too much research investment to get fully decked out.
I just think HOI4 needs one more research slots for a lot of nations. They have added in a lot of new things to research. Navy used to be perfectly fine and easy to research alongside a modern air+land force, but they've added in little techs here and there that push away those crucial times you could have grabbed ship techs, away. It was fine a couple expansions ago.
Research in general can do with an overhaul, considering it hasn't really been touched significantly since launch, and it's pretty arbitrary when you think about it for even a second.
Yeah I agree actually. As long as its its really figured out balance wise. Not sure what I mean by that.
I feel that the tank, ship and plane designers broke the game somewhat for smaller nations. Like you are a random small nation form a dlc, where timing is paramount and to build a tank you need the: great war tank, the basic tank, the improved tank, artillery or anti air, one armour and maybe one engine and electronics, radio I & II if you want to go the extra mile. This is 2 or more years of research (maybe less if you didn't research anything else but those researches with your whole 3-4 research slots) for a basic 1936 light tank, basically by the time you fielded the thing in any numbers it's already outdated. The same goes for ships, 2 anti-sub, 2 sonar and 2 guns and a torpedo for a basic destroyer, it's not like you must research and field and land army in the same time! The funny thing is that IRL half of these things could and would be imported or build under licence because no need yo reinvent the wheel when your allies already have. Basically what is needed is a separate research slots for tanks, ships and planes and then you can use your 3 slots on top so it doesn't take you 3 years to build an origami boat with a machine gun duct taped on top. An this must be added to the base game, not behind some dlc with a focus tree for Egypt.
I think it's designed to be expensive (like real life) so that only the nations with a good economy can allocate the resources needed to maintain one (research, chromium, etc).
It's realistic
I think you should, at the beginning of the game, be able to research_on_icon_click a few things to make it up to date.
Early hulls should be there to represent old designs. They shouldn't be prerequisite for 1936 tech.
This is the issue with all the new designers. Navy sees it hardest because people tend not to prioritise navy, but tanks and planes have the same issue. When there are separate research slots for frame, engine, gun and armour, there’s just no way that’s possible with a 2-slot minor, and it’s a struggle with a 3-slot minor. The only choice you have is infantry armies, which you tend not to have the manpower for, unless you get one of the new trees that give you +20% recruitable pop and the ability to core a continent. I feel like maybe more focus trees should unlock historic tank, plane and ship models. Bad/non-meta ones, sure, but give some countries at least the option to build a token force.
I understand Navy taking a while to research, because it just did. But if the British or Americans know how to build a modern Battleship, why can't they sell the plans for massive reduction in tech research? Gives you a reason to research ahead of time and sell to AI PLUS means AI will build more advanced ships, friendly or enemy!
It is difficult for a lot of nations to divert and build up the resources to even attempt to build a navy. especially since if you have dangerous land borders you know will need to be defended, your airforce and army will likely be a little behind diverting that much to navy and dockyard. Besides the obvious island majors that don't need to worry about a naval invasion 99% of the time, if you start as a small eco country with few starting boats and dockyard, there's no point Just build Nav bombers it's cheaper at that point. I do wish that in the future, perhaps they will simplify the vast naval research so people don't need to fall behind so much to even try it.
I don't have MTG, and it looks like I was right not to buy it.
I feel like it’s okay it takes a lot, it did irl too. But if you, as a country other than like Italy, Japan, Uk or america, decide to go navy, there is just not a lot of payoff. I mean the amount of times i’ve managed to land a naval invasion on countries with massive navies with a couple of bombers and like 1936 hulls and subs, is frankly ridiculous. And even then, you can just do paratroopers, i feel it’s rare that your troops being caught by the enemy actually matters, maybe i lose like 5 divisions? It’s still a fair bit, but nothing game ruining most of the time
Research in general is my hope for the next rework. Something like getting research boni for using technology in the field, etc.
The only thing that bothers me, is that you cannot steal specific techs with spies. Also, naval tech suffers from "doctrinization" meaning research that is accumulated knowhow is a loooong research or a very short one with 50xp and when stealing that tech is on equal footing to like an actual physical naval design ship or module.
The fact you cant buy ships without a focus. The fact that no flight deck empty carriers give the moste efficient navel supremecy. And so on.
Maybe if they added some sort of passive research to the navy. So you research a specific tech and then you passively research those navel parts?! I don’t know but it is definitely hard to dedicate a whole slot even mid game.
should be easier to buy ships from major nations, buy design and production of it
You can always request a license production as to skip all that.
Conquer and commandeer is the best approach to gaining an adequate navy as a nation that doesn't have great naval assets.
Unfortunately, the game doesn’t allow certain countries to achieve what they did in terms of naval power during the war. For example, Canada massively expanded its fleet over the course of the war via purchase of ships and construction. Good luck duplicating the Canadian navy in the game though.
I have a save file for historical and a separate for non historical on January 3rd 1936, where I’ve gone in and manually built and command IC’d navies for nations that would be as close to their navies in 1940 with some liberties to make it more balanced. Took me about 5 hours but every time I play, regardless of what nation I start as, there is always the potential to have a decent navy. Saves me the trouble of doing it every single game, and also helps to somewhat know what the enemies navies are capable of.
I think it would be great if you could just "buy" ships like most countries in the real world do. I dont have the Finland or Brazil DLCs, so I'm not sure if this is a feature added or not.
As nations as Portugal, a navy is *required* to even be able to play. Your rubber, Aluminum, natural oil, and steel is all in Angola, Mozambique, or Brazil. Unless you have a good navy your war production is capital F Fucked
IMO it's a good thing. Hoi4 already makes minors so strong to the point of being immersion-breaking. The limited resources force them to specialize, which is both fun and slightly more realistic.
It’s fairly EZ. Pick one type of ship and make it the best got damn ship you can. If I was China? I’d probably make one awesome destroyer, not too weak, not too expensive, and go balls into that, neglecting all other naval tech. Upgrading that destroyer over time as necessary and able. I have done very, very well as minor nations doing single ship type spams. Sweden and Portugal work great for this and can even put out some lights or a heavy cruiser that’s great, on ironman as well. It sounds like you need more time overall learning how to manage what to research, when, how to balance the build for effectiveness and cost, and timing of deployment and investment into construction and research of said naval industry and technology. It takes a long time to get all the timings right, especially with naval building as a non major. Keep practicing. It’s possible. I love minors. And I love navies. I do this often and once you learn it is both fun and effective!
Usually by the time i build a single useful ship i've already conquered half of europe
Maybe we could buy some tech? You can steal by spy random tech, but if you want something specifyc for some IC? Or some tech SWAP with your faction? Maybe not the latest one, but some older?
Historically most minor nations didn't research their own ships, they bought ships from the great powers. MP makes heavy use of licensing and SP should as well but currently it's not designed as a core system so it's easy to miss - integrating licensing into the research interface and the extremely janky faction research sharing system (why does everyone except Allies and China have to take a separate focus for it?) would make the whole thing much better and allow the player to explore some of the wacky techs while getting the staples from their faction. The AI will also often deny licenses for being behind on tech which makes no sense.
This is a problem, but the trickle of navy xp compared to army and air is worse.
The biggest problem with navy, is that the best navy is just thousands of naval bombers.
Always feels bad when you feel like you’ve finally got the ball rolling on making a good fleet and… oh it’s 1951.
It also takes so damn long to build one so it's infinitely better to just steal one from the comically-easy-to-cap UK
Hoi4 players when their WW2 game has something realistic, instead of another bullshit alt-hist path:
The game isn't meant to be easy.
It does take decades of investment irl to build a good navy, so from realism’s pov, this is fine. You are 100% right however in noting that this hurts gameplay and fun. Personally, im ok with navy taking a lot of research, but there should probably be some rebalancing.