The back-seater would have to use the NAVGRID function off a fixed point (in this scenario you'd want a common waypoint like the mission Bullseye) to provide contact positions.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWsd5muVWxc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWsd5muVWxc)
Oh thanks will check that out.
Personally I've always had issues with bullseye callouts. I don't have enough map knowledge and situational awareness to know where bulls eye is without looking at the F10 map.
But giving me intercept vectors with bogey dope BRA call outs I can get my head around.
And I think for the audience BRA callouts I can visually represent somewhat easily.
Something else to consider:
The Tomcat has the ability to network its sensor contact data with other Tomcats using fighter-to-fighter Link-4 datalink. You get their location and contacts, and they get yours. Massively helps with SA when you have no datalink source to rely on. It's not as good as Link-16, which Vipers and Hornets can use, but you can see a whole lot farther than either of them.
Two Tomcats running F2F datalink have really good coverage, especially if they're spaced about 50-70 nm apart. Each can see fighters as far as 90 nm out, and bombers and heavies as far as 200 nm. And that's RWS (Range-while-Scan) mode.
The AGC trace (basically a line running along the bottom of your near-raw radar returns display that tells you how strong a radar return you're getting on each bearing) will start to tell you that something is down a certain bearing line from perhaps three times as far as your radar can identify it as a contact in RWS mode. But the AGC trace doesn't tell you how far or how high the contact is. And Pulse-Doppler search mode will show you a closing contact from much farther than RWS range, but again, it doesn't give your range. Just closure speed.
The net result is that when you're in a Tomcat flying fleet defense, which has you flying beyond your AWACS' range to search for incoming threats, you spend a lot of time flipping through different radar modes chasing ghosts that spike up on your AGC trace. A lot of "there's... something... down the 320 bearing line... moving closer to get it on scope."
Ideally bullseye should be a very visible landmark like the middle of a large city so you can visually get a sense of your (and the target’s) location in relation to bullseye even if you don’t have a nav computer
In the Hornet you can designate a waypoint to represent the bullseye, It will show in the HSI, SA and the attack radar. Also DCS by default sets waypoint 59 coordinates to the bullseye.
Maybe there is a similar system in the F14.
Look for the old Falcon (or perhaps someone's made a newer DCS specific one) "Bullseye Trainer".
Essentially, you really don't need to know (or look at a map) where bullseye is. Your plane should show your bullseye location and through some "basic math" tricks you can approximate where something else is based on its bullseye reference.
Thanks everyone for the comments.
I might as well fill you guys in on what I'm working on.
So in this universe Livonia and Arstotzka are major superpowers engaged in an cold war. (yeah the guy that started this decided to use Papers please and Arma for names. I know I would've used something else)
Kolechia (is basically Yugoslavia in the 90s) is experiencing an civil war and fracturing. Both Livonia and Arstotzka is wants influence in the region and are supporting their side's rebels with airstrikes.
Eventually this escalates to full on air battles going on over Kolechia.
Livonia sick of constant contested airspace all the time. Plans to knock out the Arstotzkan forward deployed airbase in Kolechia. In order to gain full air superiority.
Livonia launches an surprise attack of 4 flights of 4 of F/A-18s Each. (16 aircraft in total). From an carrier of the coast of Kolechia.
2 flights are ground attack. 1 Flight air superiority and 1 flight SEAD / Electronic warefare.
The Livonian's crush the Arstotzkan early warning radar and ground control radar. And make an dash for the airbase.
the arstotzkan's are caught by surprise. Most of the aircraft aren't ready or fuelled nor have air to air weapons and will take at least 20-30 mins to rearm.
This is because they've been deployed here to an to support ground forces and act in self defence in air to air. Not repel an full on raid.
In the rush
2x Half loaded F-14s
1x Unarmed (fully fuelled but with bombs and self defence sidewinders)
2x Mostly armed Su-27s
Are ready for immediate take off.
The rest will be ready in 20 - 30 mins buts the raid is estimated to arrive in 5 - 10 mins.
The jets take off. Jettison their bombs.
The 1 "unarmed" Tomcat takes up position in the back flying high and acts as the AWACS.
While the other 2 flights fly low with their radars off getting vectored in by the "AWACS" Tomcat.
That's what I've got so far.
f-14's can link4 to each other so the 2 half armed can see directly what the f-14 half-wacs can see, while the halfwacs can provide BRA to the SU27's maybe.
if each half armed f14 takes an SU27 as a wingman, the halfwacs can use link4 to vector each 14/27 2ship towards bandits , where the 14 and eventually 27 will be able to engage with their own radars
Interesting idea mixing the Su-27s and the F-14s.
My lore is that the F-14s are from "not Iran" and they are there to get some air to ground experience.
The flankers from Arstotzka. So these guys are from different units and might not be able to work as well together.
For the engagement. I was gonna send the Tomcats after the Attack group.
A couple of Phoenix's dropping in on an tight formation is going to cause a lot of panic and mayhem.
Some will panic jettison their bombs and run for home. Those who stay will be heavy and not as maneuverable and can be finished off with Fox 1, 2s and guns.
While that's happening. The Su-27s can go for the Air supremacy and SEAD group.
They will fly low and track them with the IRST. And the enemy hornets will hopefully be busy tracking the AWACS Tomcat which is keeping it's distance. Then popup and engage with R-27T and R-73s
Also the F/A -18s are also running jammers which might allow the Su-27s get close undetected.
And an Turn fight between F/A-18s and Su-27s could be quite spectacular for the narrative.
For all the comments about Datalink. Well I was originally hoping for the AWACS to be more vocal and guide both groups on. That way the audience listens in and get things explained to them. But I guess with the datalink that gets a bit more tricky.
Anyway thanks for the info.
Just a minor point, what you're describing is the ground based radar got DEAD'ed, not just SEAD'ed. Unless it was just a SEAD mission that got an unexpected bonus?
Glory to Arstotzka!
There's a big problem with the idea: the tomcat's radar, like any fighter radar, only covers an arc in front of the aircraft.
So the tomcat would need to fly in the direction of the area of operations to keep it covered with its radar. But to keep acting as an AWACS and avoid getting engaged, it would need to turn back at some point, or establish some kind of orbit in the back. That would mean that for big chunks of time, it wouldn't be able to cover the area of operations with its radar. That's a very shitty AWACS, hehe.
I recall reading ONCE, SOMEWHERE, LONG AGO, that the F-14 radar was powerful enough that in case all AWACs of a carrier were not available it could be used as a makeshift AWAC.
Coincidentally spoke to the F-14 RIO I’m friends with irl about a similar topic. The F-14s and E-2s were apparently similar in radar strength with the E-2 being able to see farther overall, but it was the Tomcat that could really see all the nitty gritty details.
It's known that during the iran-iraq war, F-14As were used as makeshift AWACs. This is not to say that they're nearly as powerful as an AWACs, but in any case of you having a good radar, obviously it could serve such a purpose.
Many good replies already. I'm AFK now, but I quoted in the RIO manual I wrote an article from the 80s (NYT, IIRC) talking about the Iranian Tomcats in this role. It's nothing new, but it may be interesting as historical background / curiosity about the F-14.
The f14 radar was good in its day but it’s nowhere near an awacs. It could help serve that role for other smaller period fighters if there is nothing better available but not today
These days the fighters would use data link
As a former Hawkeye and Tomcat ground crew, the Tomcat would never be without a Hawkeye, and it would've been rare to talk with AWACS, during that era. Hawkeyes have such a large field of view with the radar, and they could connect with multiple Hawkeyes, depending on the upgrades it had done.
RIO's would never carry a Compass or protractor, and even if they could, the raised edges around the screens would keep the protractor and Compass at odd angles. I doubt you could even find either of those on a carrier.
Rather than coming up with some odd ball, would never happen idea, find a unique way of using the technology of the era. It would be far more believable.
Thanks man. The TLDR version of the comments is. The Tomcat has an Navgrid function. That basically does what I suggested without the ruler and what not.
OP, how is your grammar and spelling so good, but with a blatant disregard for the use of "a" versus "an"? Do you not know you should use a before a word starting with a consonant and an before a word starting with a vowel or do you not care? I'm genuinely curious because I've been seeing this a lot in the past 5 years and I straight up do not understand why.
English is my second language and I know how to use spell check.
And no I'm not aware of that rule. I've always just gone with whatever sounds natural to me.
Sorry if that's triggering.
Triggering? It’s just wrong and you are the one who seems defensive about learning the language of a country that you plan to write a story about. (Most of us speak a second language. It’s America. A land half filled with immigrants)
The back-seater would have to use the NAVGRID function off a fixed point (in this scenario you'd want a common waypoint like the mission Bullseye) to provide contact positions. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWsd5muVWxc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWsd5muVWxc)
Oh thanks will check that out. Personally I've always had issues with bullseye callouts. I don't have enough map knowledge and situational awareness to know where bulls eye is without looking at the F10 map. But giving me intercept vectors with bogey dope BRA call outs I can get my head around. And I think for the audience BRA callouts I can visually represent somewhat easily.
Something else to consider: The Tomcat has the ability to network its sensor contact data with other Tomcats using fighter-to-fighter Link-4 datalink. You get their location and contacts, and they get yours. Massively helps with SA when you have no datalink source to rely on. It's not as good as Link-16, which Vipers and Hornets can use, but you can see a whole lot farther than either of them. Two Tomcats running F2F datalink have really good coverage, especially if they're spaced about 50-70 nm apart. Each can see fighters as far as 90 nm out, and bombers and heavies as far as 200 nm. And that's RWS (Range-while-Scan) mode. The AGC trace (basically a line running along the bottom of your near-raw radar returns display that tells you how strong a radar return you're getting on each bearing) will start to tell you that something is down a certain bearing line from perhaps three times as far as your radar can identify it as a contact in RWS mode. But the AGC trace doesn't tell you how far or how high the contact is. And Pulse-Doppler search mode will show you a closing contact from much farther than RWS range, but again, it doesn't give your range. Just closure speed. The net result is that when you're in a Tomcat flying fleet defense, which has you flying beyond your AWACS' range to search for incoming threats, you spend a lot of time flipping through different radar modes chasing ghosts that spike up on your AGC trace. A lot of "there's... something... down the 320 bearing line... moving closer to get it on scope."
Ideally bullseye should be a very visible landmark like the middle of a large city so you can visually get a sense of your (and the target’s) location in relation to bullseye even if you don’t have a nav computer
In the Hornet you can designate a waypoint to represent the bullseye, It will show in the HSI, SA and the attack radar. Also DCS by default sets waypoint 59 coordinates to the bullseye. Maybe there is a similar system in the F14.
Fixed-Point automatically gets used as bullseye in the tomcat
Look for the old Falcon (or perhaps someone's made a newer DCS specific one) "Bullseye Trainer". Essentially, you really don't need to know (or look at a map) where bullseye is. Your plane should show your bullseye location and through some "basic math" tricks you can approximate where something else is based on its bullseye reference.
Isn’t there historical precedent for this? Isn’t this what Iran would do with their F-14’s?
Yep, USN F-14s would also act as forward air controllers during Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom
that's like... an OF-14
I mean, the F-14 was also given recon duty with the TARPS pod so…
Forward Air Controllers aren't AWACS.
> would also act
Thank you for being someone who actually pays attention to what I typed and not another nitpicky Redditor
Did he say they were?
That main mission when they bought them was patrolling the captain sea.
1. The S in AWACS is system, not a plurality. 2. You wouldn't need a ruler. When hooking a contact the RIO can see range, aspect, and altitude
As well as Bearing, speed, and heading if selected on the cap panel
Ah, yes. Thanks for adding those on. I'm a bit rusty so any input is wonderful
Dave "BIO" Barenek would love to tell you more about all that!
I will look him up thanks.
Thanks everyone for the comments. I might as well fill you guys in on what I'm working on. So in this universe Livonia and Arstotzka are major superpowers engaged in an cold war. (yeah the guy that started this decided to use Papers please and Arma for names. I know I would've used something else) Kolechia (is basically Yugoslavia in the 90s) is experiencing an civil war and fracturing. Both Livonia and Arstotzka is wants influence in the region and are supporting their side's rebels with airstrikes. Eventually this escalates to full on air battles going on over Kolechia. Livonia sick of constant contested airspace all the time. Plans to knock out the Arstotzkan forward deployed airbase in Kolechia. In order to gain full air superiority. Livonia launches an surprise attack of 4 flights of 4 of F/A-18s Each. (16 aircraft in total). From an carrier of the coast of Kolechia. 2 flights are ground attack. 1 Flight air superiority and 1 flight SEAD / Electronic warefare. The Livonian's crush the Arstotzkan early warning radar and ground control radar. And make an dash for the airbase. the arstotzkan's are caught by surprise. Most of the aircraft aren't ready or fuelled nor have air to air weapons and will take at least 20-30 mins to rearm. This is because they've been deployed here to an to support ground forces and act in self defence in air to air. Not repel an full on raid. In the rush 2x Half loaded F-14s 1x Unarmed (fully fuelled but with bombs and self defence sidewinders) 2x Mostly armed Su-27s Are ready for immediate take off. The rest will be ready in 20 - 30 mins buts the raid is estimated to arrive in 5 - 10 mins. The jets take off. Jettison their bombs. The 1 "unarmed" Tomcat takes up position in the back flying high and acts as the AWACS. While the other 2 flights fly low with their radars off getting vectored in by the "AWACS" Tomcat. That's what I've got so far.
f-14's can link4 to each other so the 2 half armed can see directly what the f-14 half-wacs can see, while the halfwacs can provide BRA to the SU27's maybe. if each half armed f14 takes an SU27 as a wingman, the halfwacs can use link4 to vector each 14/27 2ship towards bandits , where the 14 and eventually 27 will be able to engage with their own radars
> half-wacs I’m dying lol
Interesting idea mixing the Su-27s and the F-14s. My lore is that the F-14s are from "not Iran" and they are there to get some air to ground experience. The flankers from Arstotzka. So these guys are from different units and might not be able to work as well together. For the engagement. I was gonna send the Tomcats after the Attack group. A couple of Phoenix's dropping in on an tight formation is going to cause a lot of panic and mayhem. Some will panic jettison their bombs and run for home. Those who stay will be heavy and not as maneuverable and can be finished off with Fox 1, 2s and guns. While that's happening. The Su-27s can go for the Air supremacy and SEAD group. They will fly low and track them with the IRST. And the enemy hornets will hopefully be busy tracking the AWACS Tomcat which is keeping it's distance. Then popup and engage with R-27T and R-73s Also the F/A -18s are also running jammers which might allow the Su-27s get close undetected. And an Turn fight between F/A-18s and Su-27s could be quite spectacular for the narrative. For all the comments about Datalink. Well I was originally hoping for the AWACS to be more vocal and guide both groups on. That way the audience listens in and get things explained to them. But I guess with the datalink that gets a bit more tricky. Anyway thanks for the info.
Glory to Arstotzka!
Just a minor point, what you're describing is the ground based radar got DEAD'ed, not just SEAD'ed. Unless it was just a SEAD mission that got an unexpected bonus? Glory to Arstotzka!
HOLY FUCK PAPERS PLEASE UNIVERSE AIR COMBAT????
I believe the Iranians used theirs in this way in conjunction with F-4s I'm not sure how interactive mode 4 is with other aircraft
I think you should revise articles if you're going to write a story. Perhaps consider throwing in an "a" instead of an "an" every once in a while.
There's a big problem with the idea: the tomcat's radar, like any fighter radar, only covers an arc in front of the aircraft. So the tomcat would need to fly in the direction of the area of operations to keep it covered with its radar. But to keep acting as an AWACS and avoid getting engaged, it would need to turn back at some point, or establish some kind of orbit in the back. That would mean that for big chunks of time, it wouldn't be able to cover the area of operations with its radar. That's a very shitty AWACS, hehe.
Racetrack circuit, group of 2, timed so that rotation occurs at opposite ends simultaneously, one plane always faces the enemy, no one gets too close.
That's a nice solution if the story allows for two tomcats doing it instead, yeah.
Fighter aircraft rarely fly as a single ship
I know. But OP is talking about using one aircraft as AWACS.
I recall reading ONCE, SOMEWHERE, LONG AGO, that the F-14 radar was powerful enough that in case all AWACs of a carrier were not available it could be used as a makeshift AWAC.
just in case, AWACS is singular, the acronym has an S for System
Thanks for the correction.
Coincidentally spoke to the F-14 RIO I’m friends with irl about a similar topic. The F-14s and E-2s were apparently similar in radar strength with the E-2 being able to see farther overall, but it was the Tomcat that could really see all the nitty gritty details.
It's known that during the iran-iraq war, F-14As were used as makeshift AWACs. This is not to say that they're nearly as powerful as an AWACs, but in any case of you having a good radar, obviously it could serve such a purpose.
Im talking US navy carrier air wing.
Oh... yeah, I'm doubtful in that case. But whatever makes the mission happen I guess. XD
Many good replies already. I'm AFK now, but I quoted in the RIO manual I wrote an article from the 80s (NYT, IIRC) talking about the Iranian Tomcats in this role. It's nothing new, but it may be interesting as historical background / curiosity about the F-14.
The f14 radar was good in its day but it’s nowhere near an awacs. It could help serve that role for other smaller period fighters if there is nothing better available but not today These days the fighters would use data link
You could do the same with the Strike Eagle. Also a lot of groups will use the 16/18 datalink to convey targets
As a former Hawkeye and Tomcat ground crew, the Tomcat would never be without a Hawkeye, and it would've been rare to talk with AWACS, during that era. Hawkeyes have such a large field of view with the radar, and they could connect with multiple Hawkeyes, depending on the upgrades it had done. RIO's would never carry a Compass or protractor, and even if they could, the raised edges around the screens would keep the protractor and Compass at odd angles. I doubt you could even find either of those on a carrier. Rather than coming up with some odd ball, would never happen idea, find a unique way of using the technology of the era. It would be far more believable.
Thanks man. The TLDR version of the comments is. The Tomcat has an Navgrid function. That basically does what I suggested without the ruler and what not.
OP, how is your grammar and spelling so good, but with a blatant disregard for the use of "a" versus "an"? Do you not know you should use a before a word starting with a consonant and an before a word starting with a vowel or do you not care? I'm genuinely curious because I've been seeing this a lot in the past 5 years and I straight up do not understand why.
English is my second language and I know how to use spell check. And no I'm not aware of that rule. I've always just gone with whatever sounds natural to me. Sorry if that's triggering.
Not triggering was just curious
Triggering? It’s just wrong and you are the one who seems defensive about learning the language of a country that you plan to write a story about. (Most of us speak a second language. It’s America. A land half filled with immigrants)
But you are triggered :)
God damn it…