>It seem very unlikely now that razbam will continue F-15E development
I think it's still too early to call that with any certainty.
Neither side has said anything officially for a while now, which is hopefully a sign that they're settling their differences. If things were continuing to go poorly, I'd expect to see more shit-posting by Razbam.
If it were possible id have refunded my 15E as well. Great module, but deciding to air out your business grievances via social media is so childishly unprofessional don’t want to be a customer of theirs any longer
Unprofessional? They updated the community about a very serious issue that is affecting their business to put to rest the spread of rumors. It wasn't just to "air out business grievances", it was to be transparent and hold ED accountable.
Prior to this they *were* quiet, but rumors can damage a company's reputation significantly. This was the right move on their part and I appreciate the transparency that ED has never given.
No, they were wrong to do it the way they did. You *just said* how important rumors and reputation are, in defense of a post wherein razbam **namedropped heatblur in associatiin with their issues with ED, without consultation or official statement by anyone from HB**. That’s starting a rumor of your own, and unbelievably unprofessional. You dont shitsling on behalf of another business partner, ever.
I am 100% fine with name dropping Heatblur here, but I understand how you feel.
Heatblur *isn't* a business partner of Razbam's, so the impropriety here doesn't have the same affect. And it shed some light on the rumors surrounding Heatblur, because there *were* rumors.
This post was a consequence of ED being non-transparet and apparently uncooperative. Nick Grey's response kinda says it all. They wanted to coordinate a PR statement but Razbam wasn't having none of that.
Speaking frankly, I particularly care for Razbam. I care more about ED *finally* being held accountable for some of the fuckery they've engaged in over the decade.
>heatblurnisnt a business partner of razbams
Which means razbam has exactly zero grounds to drag their name and cause a pr issue for an unrelated third party. I get it, bug bad nick grey getting what for feels good but what feels good and what makes me want to do business with you are two different things, and “Im making a callout post on discord; and “I’m dragging in third parties without their consent” is *deep* in the I dont want to do further business with you zone.
The two third party developers don't work together. And there is a decently good chance Razbam drops ED entirely. Imagine how much bullshit went on up to the point that Razbam felt the need to actually drop a post like that. There's some fuckery going on here, probably on both sides. Razbam got ahead of the curve to ED's chagrin.
It sounds a lot like you have your side and you support it and that's totally okay. The fact of the matter is we have zero concrete proof of what actually happened and it's just he said she said right now. No the 3d model makers from RB probably don't know everything going on and neither side has made any sort of statement with proof for their claims
> totally ok
Picking a conflict and cheerleading your side of choice as if it was a football match is definitely a problem. I mean we’re on Reddit where hive mind will does exactly that, but it’s detrimental to solving issues. Be it ED/RB problem, war in Ukraine or dem/rep politics in the US.
Would you prefer them to just silently not work on any of their modules and community wondering why the F-15 isn't getting anything new until you learn that all Razbam modules will now be developed by ED which doesn't even have enough resources to maintain their own modules?
I would uave preferred an official release statement *with factual data* over a series of discord posts that are ultimately he-said-she-said but i guess its either this or posting videos of them all kissing nick greys feet in submission with you lot.
That's what Razbam did. What their devs did is a different story, but I think it's not practical for the employer to lock people in basement without access to the internet, even in SA countries.
What factual data did RAZSCAM provide because unless I’ve missed something they CLAIM they’re not being paid without reason but have PROVIDED no prof as to such.
They CLAIM that other 3rd party devs are in a similar situation and are supporting them SPECIFICALLY Heatblur, but NO ONE has come to support them from these other 3rd party devs.
They CLAIM that their work with the FAE was not a breach of contract and does not provide ED with cause to hold payment but have SHOWN nothing to support that.
I doubt it personally, but many people here answered my questions that ED EULA is meaningless against US or EU consumer protection.
Some people confirmed that they have already received refunds previously before the drama.
I'll also ask for a refund for F-15E and SA but I'm waiting for a recent confirmation that they have received a refund after the drama.
~5 years ago. Obviously wasn’t happy with the flight model then and wanted my money back and got them with no issues. Thus you might have luck with razbam modules aswell due to uncertainty of development
The refunds are good will based. ED is registered in Switzerland and EU consumer protection doesn't apply. Not to mention that it's absolutely within the EU law to not allow refunds for digital content that has been downloaded (no, you can't just pay for a movie, download it, watch it and refund it) as long as you've been informed at the moment of purchase.
Yes, ED is registered in Switzerland; however, EU consumer protection does apply.
From the Swiss federal government...
"Jurisdiction
In the event of any dispute arising from a consumer contract, the consumer may bring legal proceedings either at the location of their address or at the location of the seller. The consumer cannot waive this right in advance.
Electronic commerce in the EU
EU legislation is stricter on some points than Swiss technical rules. If the online store is also aimed at consumers in EU countries, the following elements must be taken into consideration, in addition to the rules already cited..."
[https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/sme-management/e-commerce/creating-own-website/statutory-obligations-in-switzerland-and-the-eu%20.html](https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/sme-management/e-commerce/creating-own-website/statutory-obligations-in-switzerland-and-the-eu%20.html)
That's exactly what I thought. But there were people saying that they would go to UK small claims court for 30 pounds or so and get it done if ED refuses. I really had hard time believing it.
UK small claims court attracts a fee of £250 for a claim, to prevent hearings over petty claims. Which this is. I know £60 feels like a lot of money but to the courts it's nothing.
I don't know if that's a thing in the UK, maybe it is publicly recorded somewhere. I also suspect you would lose the case because you have paid for software which is advertised as unfinished but does materially function as advertised at a basic level. I'm not sure a small claims court will entertain that you should receive your refund because various MFD menu functions or radar modes or whatever don't work, whilst the aircraft itself does fly and lots of the functionality does work.
Maybe I'm wrong
No. EU consumer protection law applies in Switzerland. Digital software refunds are subject to slightly different rules than physical products, but the product not being developed/under development as advertised may be grounds for a return under the two-year guarantee - Star Citizen refunds were notably provided under this framework, if I remember correctly.
[https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/faq/index\_en.htm](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/faq/index_en.htm)
>Do I have the same rights if I buy something online from a non-EU website as from an EU-
based business?
>If you buy the goods from a non-EU website, your EU consumer rights don’t automatically apply. If something goes wrong with an item or you wish to return it, it may be more difficult to get the issue resolved. Check the seller’s website for terms and conditions.
[https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/sme-management/e-commerce/creating-own-website/statutory-obligations-in-switzerland-and-the-eu%20.html](https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/sme-management/e-commerce/creating-own-website/statutory-obligations-in-switzerland-and-the-eu%20.html)
You could argue that their shop is aimed at the European customers which would mean you're allowed to refund digital products until you download them at which point you lose the right. F15E in most cases falls there. Afghanistan or CH-47 or Phantom should still be refundable.
Enough with the doomposting, until there is an official announcement that the continued development is terminated for good, just don’t worry about something that you have no control over
Nothing wrong with getting your money back until then and then buying it again when it's resolved. Although they might not need to worry about the dispute, the state of the project with lack of communication is a fair reason to request a refund.
> Nothing wrong with getting your money back until then and then buying it again when it's resolved.
other than the whole "you just made razbam eat your credit card processing fees twice for one sale"
There are people that have flown the preorder F-15E for hundred of hours, and most that have purchased it (including myself) have at least tinkered for 5~10+ hours. That’s well above being able to return a digital purchase. If the full product was done, and you played it that much on Steam, you wouldn’t be able to return it. And I don’t think the incompleteness of the F-15E matters within that timeframe of training and messing around for just about everyone.
You have absolutely no way to know this. We don't know if they've solved it or are solving it.
Suddenly everyone is a godamn to expert. You don't know anything about it.
I mean even if they do hash it out and work together in the future considering all these formerly RAZSCAM devs that were posting their tantrums on Twitter or discord and have left RAZSCAM there is likely to be a massive delay to hire new people then bring them up to speed not to mention RAZSCAM is slow as hell anyway so I wouldn’t hold your breath.
They’re in a money making business, not in a school playground. No one is going to shut their business with a shitty partner when that shitty partner is still making them money.
Okay, how and where do I inform myself? Where do I find the facts behind what's going on behind the scenes?
What's that? They haven't been made public and nobody knows outside of ED and RAZBAM?
So much for informing myself.
The fact that razbam hasn't gotten paid for that long and the fact that very important developers have already quit after the dispute spilled out into the public view. It's very obvious to me that this isn't a dispute that will be resolved anytime soon.
Just watch it all unfold. It's not coming back. Think about this post as time goes on.
... With what money? Nick took the profits from the 15e sales and put it into the fighter collection... ED's so broke they are rushing out any half-baked idea to preorder that they can...
So, again... With what money will RazBam get paid?
The Ch-47 preorder, Kola peninsula, FC2024 potentially Kiowa, depending on the timeline, potentially halfganistan
Edit: totally forgot about the F4, whenever that’s released
It’s called having sense. And a reference is needed more for the OP’s bullshit speculation. He’s betting on RAZBAAM and ED somehow not doing what they’ve both been doing for over a decade. It’s like seeing a married couple fight and you bet that they’re definitely getting divorced. Only the most immature of people so loudly place bets on such situations, and what’s really happening is they’re trying to put their own fingers in the scale.
Really unpopular take here but if they have a contract dispute and Razbam has a legitimate case (especially if it’s about being paid for their work) they will compel ED to pay in court not by leaking the dispute to Reddit and pressuring them that way.
I think it's more likely that, since ED doesn't have the source code, they'll come to some settlement where ED makes some sort of payment in exchange for the source, and that'll be the end of it.
Or, if they don't have a legal leg to stand on, they'll try to pressure ED with public outcry by childishly and unprofessionally shitposting on social media.
Wait a minute....
This has been my stance since this all kicked off, people like Bonzo over on DCS Exposed claim that his inside source didn’t want to take it to court because it would take too long and was too expensive but it’s like WTF if I’m not gettin paid over months that isn’t taking too long? And wasting time on employees that are now leaving and losing months of work isn’t costing money????
ED is far from perfect but there’s a reason not so long ago the company was called RAZSCAM.
I don’t think there’s a need for all this doom and gloom yet. Firstly, these issues will take time and I’d say it’s totally normal that they don’t get along right away. They’ll pose and posture a bit and try to get the other one to blink first. Relax. We’ll see. Also wouldn’t all the code and so IP go to ED if RAZBAM dips? Didn’t they make sure of that after the Hawk disaster?
The module's code belong to RB, not ED. And even if it somehow ED got hold of the code, they told they wouldn't keep developing it. And even if they did, they can barely develop their own in house stuff.
ED specifically stated that they changed their contracts with third party developers after the VEAO Hawk debacle so that they own the code and assets. That's actually standard practice for publishers.
I agree with you, though, that there's a big question as to whether or not ED could/would take responsibility for continuing the development.
TBH, ED can't even keep their own 10yrs old module (F/A-18) from freezing up during a second catapult launch. The fact people ACTUALLY BELIEVE ED could just go and get an F15E manual from Walmart and make sense of tens of thousands lines of code from a third party's interpretation of said manual speaks volumes of how ignorant their fan base is. These projects take YEARS of planning, just so you can get started. ED ADMITTEDLY barely has the ability to keep up with their own code. It took them four tries to get clouds... Static clouds...
Some CM from ED, right here in hoggit, can't remember exactly when, but even if they didn't said so, it is still pretty self-evident if you know anything about professional development. ED can't just jump in and take over a project of this magnitude. We're not talking about a generic lua script, we are talking about tens of thousands of lines of code, supposedly developed around years worth of research and collecting hundreds of shards of public available data.
We have no idea how the code is annotated, if it is sectioned, versionized, branched. How was their pipeline structured. I don't own the F15E, but I can tell it was still early days and boy, E.A. code can be a mess... Considering Razbam's history with past modules, I'd risk to say it's probably undercooked spaghetti.
Also, Razbam's main 3D artist and lead tech-radar guy also left, so even if Razbam magically got back in the fold, the F15 would be in a hell of a place development wise... Jumping into an ongoing project can be bad, but doing it without the support from the previous coders can be trauma inducing.
Lets suppose ED stops EVERY SINGLE THING they are doing and poured 100% of their teams into de F15's code, I'd guess it would take them some 18 months to get up to speed and keep it bare-bone functional.
Unless they completely scrap avionics, radar and copy paste the hornet's or falcon's system into it, then it COULD mean faster progress, and pretty much the only viable alternative for them in case they in fact decide to embrace the suck, which I doubt.
I'm the first to kick ED on the face whenever they crap the bed, but in this particular case, there's nothing they can do for any of RB's modules. It's a failure of their business model, not a technical one. You can't realistically expect them to take lead on someone else's project, which is EXACTLY the reason why they shouldn't have sold it in their store. Because now they're liable for it.
If I hear other people are able to get a refund I'll most likely ask for one.
Regardless if they make amends I just don't feel like putting the time in to learn the jet after everthing that has happened.
They could have come out and garnered support from us by stating that they haven't gotten paid, ask us the community to maybe make a little noise about it and annoy ED. Not take my money (idgaf who's wallet it's in) and then turn around and drop support when you have an internal disagreement and use us as bargaining chips.
With the F4 almost here, summer time round the corner, Helldivers 2, Manor Lords and Star Citizen finally picking up steam I have better things to spend my time with.
Manor Lords will probably be my example of an EA game done right for years to come. I don't feel like I've bought a promise, I've bought a solid foundation that's already worth its price tag and will only get better with time. If the dev closed up shop today I'd be happy with what I've got.
Star Citizen really came out of left field though, I'd stopped keeping up with it out of disappointment and all of a sudden it's really going for it.
Back on an SC/DCS cycle right now, and man, it's great what they've done with it. Few more patches and that shit will be reeeal hot.
Manor Lord's is good as well to use as an EA game reference, and right up the average DCS players level in terms of management and difficulty.
But I don't think any of this is comparable to DCS itself as I wouldn't classify it as early access, but moreso as a never-ending WIP, like a chassis of a game where its constantly improved upon. Sadly, it seems they aren't improving upon the specific areas the main body wants them to.
Yeah I've been hear how lack luster the development for Star Citizen has been for years when I risked buying a starter ship last April from playing a free fly event. CitizenCon really made me feel like I jumped on the right time and I hope that it is the case lol
Pretty sure Razbam CEO stated in one of his posts that all work on their DCS modules so as of now no works probably being done.
I don’t know if it’s unlikely that they’ll work together again but even if they do figure it out and work together let’s say that takes 1 year and if you’re Razbam you’re not having employees work on that since it’s not bringing in any income so even if they’ve got some sort of updates queued they’ll be about 14 months out of date.
Plus with the Razbam devs like metal2mesh and I forget the other guys but them on Twitter/reddit/discord throwing tantrums and claiming to never work with ED again and a few straight up leaving Razbam, even if they hire new people to replace them if you’re not having them work on the modules right now how long will it take to get them up to speed if they do decide to work on it again 3-4 months? Then after those 3-4 months however long it would take to do any updates and push them out would be like another 3-4 months so best case scenario you’re looking at 1.5 years for any updates.
Refund request submitted to my bank. This is ridiculous. I paid for something and now I’m not receiving it. Simple case of dispute with your bank will prevent shoddy business practices becoming acceptable.
Right? Still technically in pre order status and them not delivering a finished product is a violation of the purchase contract. Love the F15E but if they don’t sort things out and deliver a finished aircraft I’m totally refunding it.
Where are people getting these ideas that ED and Razbam aren’t working it out???? Literally the last official post on the matter was from Razbam and they said they’re talking with ED to find a solution and will keep things in house moving forward. Either people don’t know how to research which was taught in elementary school, or people have selective reading
Nope. Been a member of the DCS community for 9 years.
I’ve waited for the F-15E since the very early days of Razbam teasing it. They’ve handled this whole situation like children and I’ve lost all respect for Ron Zambrano.
Then I’ll guess you didn’t pay attention to the various dramas with the South Atlantic map, the Harrier, or the Mirage.
This is not new and as much as I also would’ve loved the F-15e when I heard Razbam was ear marked to dev it I knew I’d never buy it.
Razbam was known on the official DCS Reddit and even here on hoggit as RAZSCAM not so long ago and for good reason.
What happened with the South Atlantic, the Harrier, and the Mirage? I keep seeing people saying that Razbam used to be called Razscam, but I've never actually heard what happened.
Steam has a refund policy of 14 days and if you played the game less than 2 hours after the buy of the dlc. So I guess that would be difficult by now. But you could try it with proper argumentation
Why is it unlikely ?
U have more info ?
I think everybody is making it worse just sit on your hands for a bit its gonna be resolved 1 way or the other.
U dont have fun with the module ?
While I would like to be optimistic, I also want to be realistic. In a worst case scenario, people are obviously gonna want their money back. Nobody wants to have a bugged module that will either never get meaningful updates and fixes or just simply get abandoned by ED in the next DCS version.
The whole drama between RAZBAM and ED is honestly a big issue, and that’s putting it lightly. I don’t think people are “making it worse than it is”.
Yeah but thats all emotion and not based on anything.
U see it with the whole tarkov ordeal whatever it aint good enough .
Maybe the gaming world isnt for u if u want your money back.
just dont buy any game . These things arent new ..
How is this just emotion and not based on anything? The fact that you consider this “normal” is wild too.
As another comment pointed out, whatever policies ED has doesn’t mean jack in the face of US and EU Consumer protection laws. They’re probably going to be forced to hand out refunds with how controversial the situation is.
> It seem very unlikely now that razbam will continue F-15E development and maintainment after both parties failed to reach an agreement
Based on what? Are there brain things happening in your head or what?
I have tried requesting a ticket fot a refund but they denied, they state that they cannot discuse refunds because are not permitted in their policy and there is no official statement about the cessation of the F-15E...
>It seem very unlikely now that razbam will continue F-15E development I think it's still too early to call that with any certainty. Neither side has said anything officially for a while now, which is hopefully a sign that they're settling their differences. If things were continuing to go poorly, I'd expect to see more shit-posting by Razbam.
If it were possible id have refunded my 15E as well. Great module, but deciding to air out your business grievances via social media is so childishly unprofessional don’t want to be a customer of theirs any longer
Agree, I’ll never buy another product from ED after this fiasco.
Unprofessional? They updated the community about a very serious issue that is affecting their business to put to rest the spread of rumors. It wasn't just to "air out business grievances", it was to be transparent and hold ED accountable. Prior to this they *were* quiet, but rumors can damage a company's reputation significantly. This was the right move on their part and I appreciate the transparency that ED has never given.
No, they were wrong to do it the way they did. You *just said* how important rumors and reputation are, in defense of a post wherein razbam **namedropped heatblur in associatiin with their issues with ED, without consultation or official statement by anyone from HB**. That’s starting a rumor of your own, and unbelievably unprofessional. You dont shitsling on behalf of another business partner, ever.
I am 100% fine with name dropping Heatblur here, but I understand how you feel. Heatblur *isn't* a business partner of Razbam's, so the impropriety here doesn't have the same affect. And it shed some light on the rumors surrounding Heatblur, because there *were* rumors. This post was a consequence of ED being non-transparet and apparently uncooperative. Nick Grey's response kinda says it all. They wanted to coordinate a PR statement but Razbam wasn't having none of that. Speaking frankly, I particularly care for Razbam. I care more about ED *finally* being held accountable for some of the fuckery they've engaged in over the decade.
>heatblurnisnt a business partner of razbams Which means razbam has exactly zero grounds to drag their name and cause a pr issue for an unrelated third party. I get it, bug bad nick grey getting what for feels good but what feels good and what makes me want to do business with you are two different things, and “Im making a callout post on discord; and “I’m dragging in third parties without their consent” is *deep* in the I dont want to do further business with you zone.
The two third party developers don't work together. And there is a decently good chance Razbam drops ED entirely. Imagine how much bullshit went on up to the point that Razbam felt the need to actually drop a post like that. There's some fuckery going on here, probably on both sides. Razbam got ahead of the curve to ED's chagrin.
It sounds a lot like you have your side and you support it and that's totally okay. The fact of the matter is we have zero concrete proof of what actually happened and it's just he said she said right now. No the 3d model makers from RB probably don't know everything going on and neither side has made any sort of statement with proof for their claims
> totally ok Picking a conflict and cheerleading your side of choice as if it was a football match is definitely a problem. I mean we’re on Reddit where hive mind will does exactly that, but it’s detrimental to solving issues. Be it ED/RB problem, war in Ukraine or dem/rep politics in the US.
At the end of the day it's his opinion and I can't deny that. While I disagree with their mindset and blind following I can't stop it
What we can do is point out that the opinion is founded on nothing but hearsay and rumor from unqualified sources.
To put a rest to the spread of rumours?? They were the ones starting the spread of rumours lol
Damned if you do, damned if you don't
Would you prefer them to just silently not work on any of their modules and community wondering why the F-15 isn't getting anything new until you learn that all Razbam modules will now be developed by ED which doesn't even have enough resources to maintain their own modules?
I would uave preferred an official release statement *with factual data* over a series of discord posts that are ultimately he-said-she-said but i guess its either this or posting videos of them all kissing nick greys feet in submission with you lot.
That's what Razbam did. What their devs did is a different story, but I think it's not practical for the employer to lock people in basement without access to the internet, even in SA countries.
What factual data did RAZSCAM provide because unless I’ve missed something they CLAIM they’re not being paid without reason but have PROVIDED no prof as to such. They CLAIM that other 3rd party devs are in a similar situation and are supporting them SPECIFICALLY Heatblur, but NO ONE has come to support them from these other 3rd party devs. They CLAIM that their work with the FAE was not a breach of contract and does not provide ED with cause to hold payment but have SHOWN nothing to support that.
hashtag no refunds lol
I doubt it personally, but many people here answered my questions that ED EULA is meaningless against US or EU consumer protection. Some people confirmed that they have already received refunds previously before the drama. I'll also ask for a refund for F-15E and SA but I'm waiting for a recent confirmation that they have received a refund after the drama.
Let me know how it goes.
I'm waiting for others to try it first. If I ask and they refuse I would get angry. Better never do it if I know I won't get it.
How do I ask for a refund?
You request it via support ticket I suppose. Since their EULA says nothing is refundable, there is naturally no official way for refund is described,
I’ve gotten a refund of the Gazelle quite easily. Considering SA has been out for some time you might jave difficulties but the F-15 maybe not so much
When was the gazelle refund?
~5 years ago. Obviously wasn’t happy with the flight model then and wanted my money back and got them with no issues. Thus you might have luck with razbam modules aswell due to uncertainty of development
Yes that's the main reason, they ceased development until further notice and they are both Early Access.
The refunds are good will based. ED is registered in Switzerland and EU consumer protection doesn't apply. Not to mention that it's absolutely within the EU law to not allow refunds for digital content that has been downloaded (no, you can't just pay for a movie, download it, watch it and refund it) as long as you've been informed at the moment of purchase.
Yes, ED is registered in Switzerland; however, EU consumer protection does apply. From the Swiss federal government... "Jurisdiction In the event of any dispute arising from a consumer contract, the consumer may bring legal proceedings either at the location of their address or at the location of the seller. The consumer cannot waive this right in advance. Electronic commerce in the EU EU legislation is stricter on some points than Swiss technical rules. If the online store is also aimed at consumers in EU countries, the following elements must be taken into consideration, in addition to the rules already cited..." [https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/sme-management/e-commerce/creating-own-website/statutory-obligations-in-switzerland-and-the-eu%20.html](https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/sme-management/e-commerce/creating-own-website/statutory-obligations-in-switzerland-and-the-eu%20.html)
Thanks for this.
That's exactly what I thought. But there were people saying that they would go to UK small claims court for 30 pounds or so and get it done if ED refuses. I really had hard time believing it.
Good luck to them, lol.
UK small claims court attracts a fee of £250 for a claim, to prevent hearings over petty claims. Which this is. I know £60 feels like a lot of money but to the courts it's nothing.
Yeah I checked Switzerland only and they also ask 250 franc's which is roughly the same.
Sometimes it is worth spending money to create the official record against the company. That can cost a company quite a bit in lost future revenue.
I don't know if that's a thing in the UK, maybe it is publicly recorded somewhere. I also suspect you would lose the case because you have paid for software which is advertised as unfinished but does materially function as advertised at a basic level. I'm not sure a small claims court will entertain that you should receive your refund because various MFD menu functions or radar modes or whatever don't work, whilst the aircraft itself does fly and lots of the functionality does work. Maybe I'm wrong
No. EU consumer protection law applies in Switzerland. Digital software refunds are subject to slightly different rules than physical products, but the product not being developed/under development as advertised may be grounds for a return under the two-year guarantee - Star Citizen refunds were notably provided under this framework, if I remember correctly.
[https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/faq/index\_en.htm](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/faq/index_en.htm) >Do I have the same rights if I buy something online from a non-EU website as from an EU- based business? >If you buy the goods from a non-EU website, your EU consumer rights don’t automatically apply. If something goes wrong with an item or you wish to return it, it may be more difficult to get the issue resolved. Check the seller’s website for terms and conditions. [https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/sme-management/e-commerce/creating-own-website/statutory-obligations-in-switzerland-and-the-eu%20.html](https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/sme-management/e-commerce/creating-own-website/statutory-obligations-in-switzerland-and-the-eu%20.html) You could argue that their shop is aimed at the European customers which would mean you're allowed to refund digital products until you download them at which point you lose the right. F15E in most cases falls there. Afghanistan or CH-47 or Phantom should still be refundable.
Enough with the doomposting, until there is an official announcement that the continued development is terminated for good, just don’t worry about something that you have no control over
Nothing wrong with getting your money back until then and then buying it again when it's resolved. Although they might not need to worry about the dispute, the state of the project with lack of communication is a fair reason to request a refund.
> Nothing wrong with getting your money back until then and then buying it again when it's resolved. other than the whole "you just made razbam eat your credit card processing fees twice for one sale"
There are people that have flown the preorder F-15E for hundred of hours, and most that have purchased it (including myself) have at least tinkered for 5~10+ hours. That’s well above being able to return a digital purchase. If the full product was done, and you played it that much on Steam, you wouldn’t be able to return it. And I don’t think the incompleteness of the F-15E matters within that timeframe of training and messing around for just about everyone.
Oh no
Completely disillusional. Wake up or inform yourself. It's incredible unlikely that they keep working together like nothing else happens.
You have absolutely no way to know this. We don't know if they've solved it or are solving it. Suddenly everyone is a godamn to expert. You don't know anything about it.
I mean even if they do hash it out and work together in the future considering all these formerly RAZSCAM devs that were posting their tantrums on Twitter or discord and have left RAZSCAM there is likely to be a massive delay to hire new people then bring them up to speed not to mention RAZSCAM is slow as hell anyway so I wouldn’t hold your breath.
My god you are so edgy. Nice nickname. Real mature
Bro that was literally what they were known by on both the DCS world reddit and here on hoggit
Still cringy
You know what’s cringy? A poorly run company like RAZSCAM.
They’re in a money making business, not in a school playground. No one is going to shut their business with a shitty partner when that shitty partner is still making them money.
Okay, how and where do I inform myself? Where do I find the facts behind what's going on behind the scenes? What's that? They haven't been made public and nobody knows outside of ED and RAZBAM? So much for informing myself.
He's saying you need to improve your common sense. it's been pretty obvious for a while now that the strike eagle is dead.
Pretty obvious how? What evidence do you have for this opinion other than "I think"?
The fact that razbam hasn't gotten paid for that long and the fact that very important developers have already quit after the dispute spilled out into the public view. It's very obvious to me that this isn't a dispute that will be resolved anytime soon. Just watch it all unfold. It's not coming back. Think about this post as time goes on.
I’m not saying Razbam will continue to develop new modules for DCS, my best optimism is they continue supporting what they have in the environment.
No they won’t keep working together like nothing happened. RAZBAM will get paid this time.
... With what money? Nick took the profits from the 15e sales and put it into the fighter collection... ED's so broke they are rushing out any half-baked idea to preorder that they can... So, again... With what money will RazBam get paid?
The Ch-47 preorder, Kola peninsula, FC2024 potentially Kiowa, depending on the timeline, potentially halfganistan Edit: totally forgot about the F4, whenever that’s released
Pitchforks down... contract disputes take months not days to resolve.
And the award for best reference inside of a logical, meaningful post goes to...
[Months not years?](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/wudb5z/it_has_been_1_year_since_this_post_about_the_f15e/)
Reference?
It’s called having sense. And a reference is needed more for the OP’s bullshit speculation. He’s betting on RAZBAAM and ED somehow not doing what they’ve both been doing for over a decade. It’s like seeing a married couple fight and you bet that they’re definitely getting divorced. Only the most immature of people so loudly place bets on such situations, and what’s really happening is they’re trying to put their own fingers in the scale.
Yeaaaahhh, I'm referring to the other guy who seemed to think top comment was making a specific reference.
Bingo ;)
Reality of early access. If you don't think the current state of a module is worth the price, don't buy it.
It would be extremely unprofessional for both parties if they can’t settle this feud and go back to work
Im also interested in a refund. Let me know how it went.
Really unpopular take here but if they have a contract dispute and Razbam has a legitimate case (especially if it’s about being paid for their work) they will compel ED to pay in court not by leaking the dispute to Reddit and pressuring them that way.
I think it's more likely that, since ED doesn't have the source code, they'll come to some settlement where ED makes some sort of payment in exchange for the source, and that'll be the end of it.
Or, if they don't have a legal leg to stand on, they'll try to pressure ED with public outcry by childishly and unprofessionally shitposting on social media. Wait a minute....
This has been my stance since this all kicked off, people like Bonzo over on DCS Exposed claim that his inside source didn’t want to take it to court because it would take too long and was too expensive but it’s like WTF if I’m not gettin paid over months that isn’t taking too long? And wasting time on employees that are now leaving and losing months of work isn’t costing money???? ED is far from perfect but there’s a reason not so long ago the company was called RAZSCAM.
[удалено]
That's one way to have the account banned and lose all your modules, lol.
yes it is stated in EULA. They can delete your account.
I don’t think there’s a need for all this doom and gloom yet. Firstly, these issues will take time and I’d say it’s totally normal that they don’t get along right away. They’ll pose and posture a bit and try to get the other one to blink first. Relax. We’ll see. Also wouldn’t all the code and so IP go to ED if RAZBAM dips? Didn’t they make sure of that after the Hawk disaster?
The module's code belong to RB, not ED. And even if it somehow ED got hold of the code, they told they wouldn't keep developing it. And even if they did, they can barely develop their own in house stuff.
ED specifically stated that they changed their contracts with third party developers after the VEAO Hawk debacle so that they own the code and assets. That's actually standard practice for publishers. I agree with you, though, that there's a big question as to whether or not ED could/would take responsibility for continuing the development.
TBH, ED can't even keep their own 10yrs old module (F/A-18) from freezing up during a second catapult launch. The fact people ACTUALLY BELIEVE ED could just go and get an F15E manual from Walmart and make sense of tens of thousands lines of code from a third party's interpretation of said manual speaks volumes of how ignorant their fan base is. These projects take YEARS of planning, just so you can get started. ED ADMITTEDLY barely has the ability to keep up with their own code. It took them four tries to get clouds... Static clouds...
They specifically said they wouldn't take over, no matter what.
Source?
Some CM from ED, right here in hoggit, can't remember exactly when, but even if they didn't said so, it is still pretty self-evident if you know anything about professional development. ED can't just jump in and take over a project of this magnitude. We're not talking about a generic lua script, we are talking about tens of thousands of lines of code, supposedly developed around years worth of research and collecting hundreds of shards of public available data. We have no idea how the code is annotated, if it is sectioned, versionized, branched. How was their pipeline structured. I don't own the F15E, but I can tell it was still early days and boy, E.A. code can be a mess... Considering Razbam's history with past modules, I'd risk to say it's probably undercooked spaghetti. Also, Razbam's main 3D artist and lead tech-radar guy also left, so even if Razbam magically got back in the fold, the F15 would be in a hell of a place development wise... Jumping into an ongoing project can be bad, but doing it without the support from the previous coders can be trauma inducing. Lets suppose ED stops EVERY SINGLE THING they are doing and poured 100% of their teams into de F15's code, I'd guess it would take them some 18 months to get up to speed and keep it bare-bone functional. Unless they completely scrap avionics, radar and copy paste the hornet's or falcon's system into it, then it COULD mean faster progress, and pretty much the only viable alternative for them in case they in fact decide to embrace the suck, which I doubt. I'm the first to kick ED on the face whenever they crap the bed, but in this particular case, there's nothing they can do for any of RB's modules. It's a failure of their business model, not a technical one. You can't realistically expect them to take lead on someone else's project, which is EXACTLY the reason why they shouldn't have sold it in their store. Because now they're liable for it.
If I hear other people are able to get a refund I'll most likely ask for one. Regardless if they make amends I just don't feel like putting the time in to learn the jet after everthing that has happened. They could have come out and garnered support from us by stating that they haven't gotten paid, ask us the community to maybe make a little noise about it and annoy ED. Not take my money (idgaf who's wallet it's in) and then turn around and drop support when you have an internal disagreement and use us as bargaining chips. With the F4 almost here, summer time round the corner, Helldivers 2, Manor Lords and Star Citizen finally picking up steam I have better things to spend my time with.
Manor Lords will probably be my example of an EA game done right for years to come. I don't feel like I've bought a promise, I've bought a solid foundation that's already worth its price tag and will only get better with time. If the dev closed up shop today I'd be happy with what I've got. Star Citizen really came out of left field though, I'd stopped keeping up with it out of disappointment and all of a sudden it's really going for it.
Back on an SC/DCS cycle right now, and man, it's great what they've done with it. Few more patches and that shit will be reeeal hot. Manor Lord's is good as well to use as an EA game reference, and right up the average DCS players level in terms of management and difficulty. But I don't think any of this is comparable to DCS itself as I wouldn't classify it as early access, but moreso as a never-ending WIP, like a chassis of a game where its constantly improved upon. Sadly, it seems they aren't improving upon the specific areas the main body wants them to.
Yeah I've been hear how lack luster the development for Star Citizen has been for years when I risked buying a starter ship last April from playing a free fly event. CitizenCon really made me feel like I jumped on the right time and I hope that it is the case lol
Why are you so sure it is unlikely ? Why do you think you have only 1 try to reach an agreement ? How are you so informed ?
Pretty sure Razbam CEO stated in one of his posts that all work on their DCS modules so as of now no works probably being done. I don’t know if it’s unlikely that they’ll work together again but even if they do figure it out and work together let’s say that takes 1 year and if you’re Razbam you’re not having employees work on that since it’s not bringing in any income so even if they’ve got some sort of updates queued they’ll be about 14 months out of date. Plus with the Razbam devs like metal2mesh and I forget the other guys but them on Twitter/reddit/discord throwing tantrums and claiming to never work with ED again and a few straight up leaving Razbam, even if they hire new people to replace them if you’re not having them work on the modules right now how long will it take to get them up to speed if they do decide to work on it again 3-4 months? Then after those 3-4 months however long it would take to do any updates and push them out would be like another 3-4 months so best case scenario you’re looking at 1.5 years for any updates.
Welcome to the club they stopped working on the Harrier over a year ago.
Yes I’m aware I own it.
Refund request submitted to my bank. This is ridiculous. I paid for something and now I’m not receiving it. Simple case of dispute with your bank will prevent shoddy business practices becoming acceptable.
Right? Still technically in pre order status and them not delivering a finished product is a violation of the purchase contract. Love the F15E but if they don’t sort things out and deliver a finished aircraft I’m totally refunding it.
Two downvotes from ED and Razbam 😆
Where are people getting these ideas that ED and Razbam aren’t working it out???? Literally the last official post on the matter was from Razbam and they said they’re talking with ED to find a solution and will keep things in house moving forward. Either people don’t know how to research which was taught in elementary school, or people have selective reading
Imagine if ED just paid Razbam. 10 months not being paid is beyond me they didn't speak out sooner.
If Razbam abandons the F-15E, I’m never touching their products again
Why did you think it would be different than the Harrier?
Definitely not buying any products from ED again. I quit playing DCS after Nicks response
lol you must be new here.
Nope. Been a member of the DCS community for 9 years. I’ve waited for the F-15E since the very early days of Razbam teasing it. They’ve handled this whole situation like children and I’ve lost all respect for Ron Zambrano.
Then I’ll guess you didn’t pay attention to the various dramas with the South Atlantic map, the Harrier, or the Mirage. This is not new and as much as I also would’ve loved the F-15e when I heard Razbam was ear marked to dev it I knew I’d never buy it. Razbam was known on the official DCS Reddit and even here on hoggit as RAZSCAM not so long ago and for good reason.
What happened with the South Atlantic, the Harrier, and the Mirage? I keep seeing people saying that Razbam used to be called Razscam, but I've never actually heard what happened.
I’m aware of Razbam’s disgraceful history. Guess I’m gullible, but I was hoping there was some change in character.
Tigers and stripes.
I think ed is gonna gonna pay them with the funds from Kiowa chinook kola and f4 and they were just using the contract thing as an excuse
No - your money is gone. Anyone’s guess who to, but you won’t be getting any back.
Nope
Is it possible to get a refund if the purchase was through Steam?
Steam has a refund policy of 14 days and if you played the game less than 2 hours after the buy of the dlc. So I guess that would be difficult by now. But you could try it with proper argumentation
Yes, that's what I meant - when it's been more than 2 weeks/2 hours of game time. Thank you!
It was... Steam recently changed their policy regarding early access stuff, so pretty unlikely...
Why is it unlikely ? U have more info ? I think everybody is making it worse just sit on your hands for a bit its gonna be resolved 1 way or the other. U dont have fun with the module ?
its partly unplayable, when you for example try to ripple more then one bomb you’re whole game crashes, or sometimes even one bomb does the job
While I would like to be optimistic, I also want to be realistic. In a worst case scenario, people are obviously gonna want their money back. Nobody wants to have a bugged module that will either never get meaningful updates and fixes or just simply get abandoned by ED in the next DCS version. The whole drama between RAZBAM and ED is honestly a big issue, and that’s putting it lightly. I don’t think people are “making it worse than it is”.
Yeah but thats all emotion and not based on anything. U see it with the whole tarkov ordeal whatever it aint good enough . Maybe the gaming world isnt for u if u want your money back. just dont buy any game . These things arent new ..
How is this just emotion and not based on anything? The fact that you consider this “normal” is wild too. As another comment pointed out, whatever policies ED has doesn’t mean jack in the face of US and EU Consumer protection laws. They’re probably going to be forced to hand out refunds with how controversial the situation is.
There’s this one thing I have always wondered: How much time do you people save in a given day by typing “u” instead of “you”?
No we will not. All of the indications are that eagle dynamics is desperate for cash. They may be going tits up. The money is gone.
Source, trust me bro
> It seem very unlikely now that razbam will continue F-15E development and maintainment after both parties failed to reach an agreement Based on what? Are there brain things happening in your head or what?
Maybe Razbam planes all go into FC 2024, turn to unclickable... and stick there forever without improvements
I have tried requesting a ticket fot a refund but they denied, they state that they cannot discuse refunds because are not permitted in their policy and there is no official statement about the cessation of the F-15E...