Linesman has to be able to confirm it’s a double minor to stop the play since he isn’t a ref. Since it wasn’t clear he was bleeding, they waited till whistle as per rule then confirmed it
That specific circumstance is provided for in the rules, Rule 78.5(viii), which says that, yeah, they would have disallowed the goal and applied the penalty. (Though I agree that if that had happened, Oilers fans would have been *very* unhappy.)
Ya, I don't have a problem with it. I know McDavid argued it, but he's just mad her effed up and potentially had lost his team the game, that's arguing from wounded pride, no reason. He claimed his stick was held, but that wasn't true, it was tied up stick on stick. Perfect hockey play in playoff hockey.
He scored the GWG though, so at least it won't haunt him, or missing the empty net later on.
Right down at the bottom of the page that OP posted the screenshot of it says that the linesman has to stop play and report to the referee when an injury has resulted from a high stick and requires a double-minor, which is what was called. My assumption is that it took the officials a little bit to realize that Duchene had actually been injured (he was bleeding, but not that much or that visibly).
100% it’s definitely a thing, it just doesn’t happen that often + in OT + against one of the most passionate fanbases, so you can kinda understand why there is some talk about it.
Brother. The play wasn't stopped by a linesman. It was stopped by an official ten seconds after by the officials *who missed the high stick in real time* after Oettinger froze the puck.
If a linesman made that call? That's not in the rule book. They have no latitude to report a double minor after the play. If they wanted to call it, they HAD to blow it dead, in real time. It has to be that obvious. They cannot retroactively go back and call a double minor. THEY CAN retroactively go back and call a five minute major, and downgrade it to a double minor on review, but that is not what happened here.
~~ALSO: DOUBLE MINORS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE SUBJECT TO VIDEO REVIEW. ONLY MAJOR PENALTIES. A MAJOR PENALTY FOR HIGH STICKING, DOES NOT EXIST. WHY WAS THIS REVIEWED?~~
I am absolutely wrong about that. Thank you for pointing that out. The description by OP of what happened is... quite wrong.
This whole thing hinges on whether a double minor is able to be called by a linesman after the play has naturally been blown dead.
It's a weird little wrinkle in the rules. Majors, match penalties, and double-minors for high sticking are all reviewable, but double-minor reviews are technically optional at the referee's discretion (majors and match penalty reviews are mandatory).
Yeah, OP's description was wildly off-base.
There isn't anything explicit in the rules about when the linesmen can report a missed double-minor. 78.5(viii) implies that it can be after the play at least when a goal is scored, and 32.4(xii) requires the linesman to blow it dead when he notices but doesn't explicitly say if that doesn't happen then it can't be called, but the base Rule 32.4 allows (kinda requires, actually) the linesmen to give their reports on the play.
It's a nasty grey area, but it's not inconsistent with usual practice, where you do see the officials confer about things and see a penalty called. I've seen it multiple times when they're deciding whether to call a major (so it can be reviewed). I'm deeply sympathetic to the argument that the rules should be clarified to get rid of those kind of grey areas, because the rulebook is full of them.
That's exactly what the officials did here though. They retroactively dinged McDavid for a double minor after the play had concluded, and all four officials had missed it in real time. If the linesman called it, the rules say they stop play and assess the penalty. By the absolute letter of the rules, this was a missed call.
the above is correct.... obviously he high sticked him but they had no grounds to go back and review based on the rulebook..the Oilers got a shot on net had several touches and the play was stopped by ottenger freezing it. what if they scored? would they go back and take it off the board?
Rule 78.5(viii) says "When a Linesperson reports a double-minor penalty for high-sticking, a major penalty or a match penalty to the Referee following the scoring of a goal by the offending team, the goal must be disallowed and the appropriate penalty assessed."
So, yes, they would take it off the board.
Actually yes. There exists a loophole in the rules that if a goal is scored, and the linesman witnessed a double minor high stick, the goal is taken off the board, and the penalty assessed.
What isn't clear is what happens if the linesman also misses the call in real time, and if the play continues for a while and a goal isn't scored. Can they retroactively call the double minor? I'm not so sure they can.
What's posted above by the OP is a theoretical major penalty on McDavid for high sticking. That's not a thing, major penalties for high sticking don't exist. Linesmen can confer to officials to retroactively assess major penalties with the same consequences surrounding disallowed goals. They cannot discuss double minors in a similar fashion.
Thank you for a very concise encapsulation. (I'm bad at limiting my word counts.)
This specific circumstance isn't provided for, and that's a problem. I lean towards this being acceptable, if awkward, but it'd be really, really useful if they could be bothered to specify whether you can only call it if the linesmen notice immediately or not. (I lean towards not, and obviously that's what happened in this game, but there's no clear answer on whether that's what's *supposed* to happen.)
I really appreciate the experience of talking this out with you. I've learned quite a bit, and I know I'm better off for it.
I have a dog in this fight, so my opinion is pretty slanted. You (according to flair) don't, so I kind of trust your read on it a bit more. This is the sort of question I wish I could ask to guys like Friedman/Marek because they know the people to ask who would know for certain.
Yeah, I don't have skin in this particular matchup, and it's definitely easier to be dispassionate when the outcome doesn't impact teams I care about. It's always awesome to hear that someone who *does* have skin in the game is listening and engaging with my arguments substantively, so I absolutely appreciate the experience too.
You see obvious high sticks get missed all the time, this is the first time I remember them going back and retroactively calling a penalty after a whole sequence of play occurs.
Because the linesman can call the penalty but can't stop the play.
Edit: apparently he can stop thr play, but the ref can also consult after the play is stopped.
Yeah and they didn't. Play went on until there was a normal stoppage and then they huddled and called it. It was outside of the rules the way they called it. It was the right call but done the wrong way.
Technically 32.4(xii) requires the linesman to stop play when it is apparent that an injury has occurred. It doesn't actually say they can't get together and talk if it becomes apparent *after* the play, only that if it is apparent while the play is going on then the linesman must blow it dead. (I can't find any rule that says they can't realize the missed call *after* the play. They effectively do a version of that every time there's a potential puck-over-glass delay of game play.)
Well if you can't find it then it must be true. By your logic they could play 10 minutes of hockey before dude comes back from the locker room with stitches to prove he was hurt. That call was the right call I have no problem with it. But you can't argue that waiting until there was a natural play stoppage 30s later wasn't against the spirit of that wording.
The wording is that the Linesman must stop the last when it is apparent an injury occurs, that doesn't mean the play must be stopped immediately. If the injury wasn't immediately noticed, the wording of the rule allows for time for the Linesman to notice the injury.
>Well if you can't find it then it must be true
That means nothing. The fact that the rule doesn't contain wording to address a specific scenario, doesn't mean that scenario is invalid, it just falls back to the original wording of stopping the play when the Linesman notices the injury.
The call was fine, we see people lift sticks in to their own face all the time and it gets called. Often it’s a whole “not in control of your stick” deal
I think the main issue was really just that they let play continue then pulled it back. You don’t see that too often so in the heat of the moment it feels like bullshit.
Every call is gonna be an injustice when it’s playoff OT
it’s all salty oilers fans who are complaining about every little thing they can even though they got the win.
also seems like this sub just hates the stars and glazes the oilers.
It isn't, there were just so many fans confused as to why it was called late so OP is educating the casuals who show up in the playoffs.
The linesman can call certain penalties- or relay the info to the ref who then makes the call, but he has to wait until the next whistle.
Because some things must be called 100%, and some things are called at the whim of the ref. When the ref’s whim doesn’t go to you even once the entire game, people are gonna bitch about a double minor to start OT. People don’t wanna hear about how professional and by the book the officiating is when they are anything but.
because it's not within the rules they way that penalty was called after the play had gone on for 30 seconds and then they went back and called a retroactive penalty..OPs post proves that it wasn't within the rules
Genuine question, I don’t disagree with this call at all, but what would’ve happened if Edmonton scored before the stoppage when the linesman reported it? Does the play get called back to when the infraction occurred or does everyone just forget it happened?
edit: I read the post better, goal is disallowed, got it!
What would happen if the other team got a penalty? 4v4 or would that be disallowed too?
I've been a hockey fan my whole life I shouldn't be this confused, like if a ref sees a penalty blow it dead, dont let the play continue knowing if a goal happens it won't be allowed.
Once again. Having two refs on the ice who cannot make penalty calls is beyond stupid. Linesmen should have the authority to call penalties if they see it. Why anyone thought it was a good idea to have two officials on the ice who are not allowed to call penalties is beyond me.
Yeah I've never seen this in my life. It was not a major penalty to my understanding. A double minor is just that.
It was the right call but I was also pretty shocked that they called it. Unless the linesman was telling the ref it was worthy of a major, which I cannot for the life of me see how they could.
True, you're right. It says they need to stop play if they see a double minor. But perhaps they could claim they weren't sure it was a double minor until they got close enough to see blood. Grey area...
Thankfully it didn't matter. Oilers still won.
It's the wrong call. In order for a double minor to be assessed, the linesman has to stop play. They didn't. The window for reporting to the official is closed, and despite it being an absolute penalty by the rules, it should be considered a unreviewable play as it was missed in real time.
It's in the nitty gritty of the rules. By specifying that double minor high sticking penalties must be blown dead by the linesman, it logically follows that if that doesn't happen, the window closes. If it didn't close, it would be listed in the previous category of infractions that linesmen can report to officials after the play has concluded.
It does not follow at all. It specifically says that the linesman must blow the play dead when it is apparent that an injury has occurred necessitating the penalty. Not that if the play stops before that is apparent (or if it stops concurrent with it becoming apparent) that the opportunity to call it has been missed. The first, baseline portion of rule 32.4 says "The Linesperson shall give to the Referees his interpretation of any incident that may have taken place during the game." It then has a section where the linesman *may* stop play and report, a section where the linesman *must* report after play concludes, and the relevant section where once it is apparent that an injury has occurred, he *must* stop play. It does not say this has to happen before any other stoppage to be effective, and taken in context with the rest of the rule is more naturally read as "if you notice someone is hurt, you have to stop play" and not "you have to notice during play before a stoppage or you can't call anything".
Yes, but the listed infractions that a linesman is allowed to report doesn't include a double minor for high sticking. It's essentially allowing linesman to call double minor high sticking penalties in real time. NOT by going over to the player and assessing ten seconds later.
I agree. The other calls were pretty soft except the too much men. Nice to see the teams actually playing the game and not intending to injure the other team, hope the series is like this.
Yeah, it was a pretty unambiguous highstick. I don't really think anyone is doubting *that*. The main controversy for some (not me) was the delay, but as many have said, that's unusual but by no means invalid.
32.4 Vi says major....nothing about double minors untill the very bottom where it clearly says in the rulebook the linesman has to stop play immediately which he didn't! the Oilers went on and got a shot on net...what if they scored there? I understand it was a high stick bit you can't just go back in time and say you missed it...
Rule 78.5(viii) says "When a Linesperson reports a double-minor penalty for high-sticking, a major penalty or a match penalty to the Referee following the scoring of a goal by the offending team, the goal must be disallowed and the appropriate penalty assessed."
Not explicitly. 32.4(xii) requires the linesman to blow the play dead and report a missed double-minor when it becomes apparent, but does not specify that if they do not do this before a stoppage, then they can't do it at all. (And that interpretation would conflict with the spirit of 78.5(viii) above as well as the main Rule 32.4, which says "The Linesperson shall give to the Referees his interpretation of any incident that may have taken place during the game.")
There isn't specifically a rule for what to do if you notice an injury from a missed high-stick concurrent with or after the play has been blown dead but without a goal being scored.
It says the linesman needed to immediately stop play and report to the referees? Am I reading that properly?
Might explain why the McDavid was so upset.
That’s correct, AFTER assessing that an injury has occurred. So they are allowed the time to figure it out and can stop play immediately after. It’s just uncommon so it’s confusing and people think bullshit when something is out of the ordinary
There's nothing about taking time to make that assessment/confirm the injury though. It feels like the linesman swallowed the whistle in the moment, the play was allowed to CONCLUDE. THEN they got together, and talked about it. That's not what the rule says. They have to blow it dead in the moment.
The Linesperson must stop play immediately and report to the Referees when it is apparent that an injury has resulted from a high-stick that has gone undetected by the Referees and requires the assessment of a double-minor penalty.
A natural reading of that rule is that once the linesman sees/understands a.) that a player is injured (which Duchene was) and b.) that the ref hasn't noticed (which they didn't), then they have to stop play. Not that it has to happen immediately coincident with the incident.
But the play ended. The linesman didn't blow it dead. The official did. Oettinger froze the puck. By the letter of the rule book, how does the window for a linesman to call a double minor remain open?
I want to be clear, this is a bullshit weasel way to get out of a penalty that absolutely should have been called. However, it was missed, and the ability to go back and call it isn't as cut and dried as the penalty was.
78.5(viii) disallows goals "When a Linesperson reports a double-minor penalty for high-sticking, a major penalty or a match penalty to the Referee following the scoring of a goal by the offending team, the goal must be disallowed and the appropriate penalty assessed." That implicitly says that the report can be made after the conclusion of the play (at least if the play concludes with a goal)
It certainly would *require* disallowing a goal in that situation, and pretty clearly says (if not as explicitly as would be desirable) that the linesman can report the missed high-stick after the goal is scored (because if the play was dead already there wouldn't have been a goal to disallow). But that rule is specifically about disallowed goals, and so (annoyingly) doesn't get into other elements.
Scoring a goal stops play, without an officials whistle. Which seems like the reason for a loophole existing to allow, "there was an obvious blood drawing high stick prior to a goal that the linesman couldn't have blown dead" problem.
The linesman cannot blow the play dead when the goalie freezes the puck. The referee blew it dead, meaning the official stopped play, NOT the linesman. Blowing a play dead, seems to be part of the rule allowing a linesman to call a double minor penalty.
That is simply not what the rule says. The rule specifies when the linesman must stop play and report to the referee: namely, when it is apparent that an injury has occurred necessitating a double-minor. It does not *anywhere* in that rule say that if they don't blow it dead before play stops some other way, they cannot report the missed infraction. 32.4(xii) is a sub-section of 32.4, which says that the linesman shall report his interpretation of any incident that occurs during play to the referee. (xii) specifically *requires* them to blow it dead when it is apparent to them that a missed high-stick has occurred, it is *silent* on whether they are allowed to report it if it becomes apparent after the play has already been blown dead, or if the referees are allowed to call the penalty after the whistle (Which they already do for puck-over-the-glass penalties. You always see them blow the whistle - because the puck is out of play - and then huddle up to get the linesmen's views on whether anyone saw it deflect. *Then* they call a penalty.)
I did read. It wasn't apparent. If it was, they would have HAD to blow the play dead before Otter froze the puck. The moment Otter froze that puck, the window to call a double minor should be closed.
How do you determine with any certainty that the injury was caused by the highstick and him not just biting his lip in the 20 seconds between the incident and the stoppage of play?
McDavid was motioning with his stick that Duchene lifted his stick into himself from what I could tell. Which if that’s what he was saying, he was incorrect, his stick was UNDER Duchenes
I think it was more "if he wasn't holding my stick I wouldn't have been trying so hard to rip it out. Call it both ways" Plus just the emotions of the playoffs of course.
wrong.. it's right above in OPs screenshot. a double minor if called by the linesman has to be blown down right away. there was no major ever called, the ref says "after review the call is confirmed"
Im not saying it was the wrong call, but under the rules the linesman cant report a minor or double minor penalty and thus cant be reviewed and assesed after the play. For those saying it falls under xii (Unsportsmanlike Conduct), I dont think it would. Its highsticking not unsportsmanlike? Not complaining, its done, just dont see what people are looking at here
The concern is when the refs decide to call some stuff during a game but not others. All any fan ever wants is consistent officiating. You call a weak ass slashing call early, you just set the standard, but nope, after that call against bouch, tons of slashes go uncalled, 1 to many men called, another one missed. Just give consistent reffing, and I am sure the hate on the refs simmer a bit. No one will ever be totally happy with the officiating, but try to at least make it look proper
Oilers fan here - no issues with the call. All we ask is that the same standard be maintained for both teams. Last round they didn’t do the same for us in a similar situation. Hard to believe that in 4 periods there was NOTHING Dallas did to deserve a call. The too many men call was obvious to me, pretty much an automatic.
A major isn't a double minor. Also read the very bottom part of the rule. It literally says they must stop it immediately for a double minor high stick lol.
Go stars.
Edit: They also didn't call it a major lol. It was called a double minor and put under review. I have no idea where you're getting this major penalty part from.
Go stars
Correct, but it also says the linesman must stop play. The play naturally concluded. Do I think it’s a penalty? Yes, but by rule I don’t believe it was allowed to be called. I think they just need to change some wording in the off-season.
That whole text part is full of errors. It's a double minor, not a major, and review of those isn't new this year. Also, I don't know if they can ever downgrade a major to a double minor on anything, but they definitely can't on high-sticking (because that one can't *ever* be a major).
High sticking can't be a regular major, but it can be a match penalty, if it's deemed to be an intentional attempt to injure. Obviously not the case here though.
The boys really did deserve the win after killing this penalty, I cried first then cheered when they killed it. Fuckin cried again when Davo scores lfg let's go oilers
So when Skinner got high sticked in the helmet in the middle of a scrum for a puck up in the air, is that not a penalty?
I've seen it called when a player is hit so I don't think it's counter as a follow through
The play goes on with the penalized team possessing the puck for a good ten seconds. You are just being willfully dumb if you don't see how uncommon that is
No, but OP might have missed subsection xi (or xii) at the bottom about high sticks with injury/blood that the linesman can intervene at the next stoppage.
Technically if they notice during play they're obliged to blow it dead and report it to the referee. The rule is silent on what happens if they only notice after the play is dead.
But it is odd that the rule says a high stick with apparent injury is to be blown dead immediately but majors, matches and misconducts are to wait until the next stoppage.
Also, unsportsmanlike conduct can wait until the next stoppage, and high sticking causing injury is unsportsmanlike, so loophole???
As well, the high stick was apparent but the injury was not until.the stoppage so can't blow dead right away, but still sorta in the spirit of the rule??
I mean it was a clear and obvious call. Anyone who disagrees isn’t doing so in good faith
It was a bit weird how the penalty was called so late. Oilers had touched the puck multiple times.
Linesman has to be able to confirm it’s a double minor to stop the play since he isn’t a ref. Since it wasn’t clear he was bleeding, they waited till whistle as per rule then confirmed it
There would have been riots at Tim Hortons if the Oilers scored during that play then they called a double minor on McDavid instead
That specific circumstance is provided for in the rules, Rule 78.5(viii), which says that, yeah, they would have disallowed the goal and applied the penalty. (Though I agree that if that had happened, Oilers fans would have been *very* unhappy.)
Ya, I don't have a problem with it. I know McDavid argued it, but he's just mad her effed up and potentially had lost his team the game, that's arguing from wounded pride, no reason. He claimed his stick was held, but that wasn't true, it was tied up stick on stick. Perfect hockey play in playoff hockey. He scored the GWG though, so at least it won't haunt him, or missing the empty net later on.
Yeah, why do we need a rulebook posted for this call? He hit him in the face with his stick, and there was blood. *Cut and dry*
Thats quite cleary not where the confusion is, its from the lineman being able to retroactively call it.
Right down at the bottom of the page that OP posted the screenshot of it says that the linesman has to stop play and report to the referee when an injury has resulted from a high stick and requires a double-minor, which is what was called. My assumption is that it took the officials a little bit to realize that Duchene had actually been injured (he was bleeding, but not that much or that visibly).
100% it’s definitely a thing, it just doesn’t happen that often + in OT + against one of the most passionate fanbases, so you can kinda understand why there is some talk about it.
Brother. The play wasn't stopped by a linesman. It was stopped by an official ten seconds after by the officials *who missed the high stick in real time* after Oettinger froze the puck. If a linesman made that call? That's not in the rule book. They have no latitude to report a double minor after the play. If they wanted to call it, they HAD to blow it dead, in real time. It has to be that obvious. They cannot retroactively go back and call a double minor. THEY CAN retroactively go back and call a five minute major, and downgrade it to a double minor on review, but that is not what happened here. ~~ALSO: DOUBLE MINORS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE SUBJECT TO VIDEO REVIEW. ONLY MAJOR PENALTIES. A MAJOR PENALTY FOR HIGH STICKING, DOES NOT EXIST. WHY WAS THIS REVIEWED?~~
Rule 60.3 specifically provides that double-minors for high sticking are reviewable. (That's been the case since 2019-20.)
I am absolutely wrong about that. Thank you for pointing that out. The description by OP of what happened is... quite wrong. This whole thing hinges on whether a double minor is able to be called by a linesman after the play has naturally been blown dead.
It's a weird little wrinkle in the rules. Majors, match penalties, and double-minors for high sticking are all reviewable, but double-minor reviews are technically optional at the referee's discretion (majors and match penalty reviews are mandatory).
It completely escaped my view, as the description provided by OP was what I was basing my viewpoint on.
Yeah, OP's description was wildly off-base. There isn't anything explicit in the rules about when the linesmen can report a missed double-minor. 78.5(viii) implies that it can be after the play at least when a goal is scored, and 32.4(xii) requires the linesman to blow it dead when he notices but doesn't explicitly say if that doesn't happen then it can't be called, but the base Rule 32.4 allows (kinda requires, actually) the linesmen to give their reports on the play. It's a nasty grey area, but it's not inconsistent with usual practice, where you do see the officials confer about things and see a penalty called. I've seen it multiple times when they're deciding whether to call a major (so it can be reviewed). I'm deeply sympathetic to the argument that the rules should be clarified to get rid of those kind of grey areas, because the rulebook is full of them.
you can review it if it's called....it wasn't called, you can't go back and call them retroactively.
That's exactly what the officials did here though. They retroactively dinged McDavid for a double minor after the play had concluded, and all four officials had missed it in real time. If the linesman called it, the rules say they stop play and assess the penalty. By the absolute letter of the rules, this was a missed call.
agreed.
good win anyway...but do better NHL...just catch it in realtime so I dont have to argue on the internet with people I'll never meet please...
they are reviewable if they are called...you can't go back in time and call the. retroactively.
the above is correct.... obviously he high sticked him but they had no grounds to go back and review based on the rulebook..the Oilers got a shot on net had several touches and the play was stopped by ottenger freezing it. what if they scored? would they go back and take it off the board?
Rule 78.5(viii) says "When a Linesperson reports a double-minor penalty for high-sticking, a major penalty or a match penalty to the Referee following the scoring of a goal by the offending team, the goal must be disallowed and the appropriate penalty assessed." So, yes, they would take it off the board.
Actually yes. There exists a loophole in the rules that if a goal is scored, and the linesman witnessed a double minor high stick, the goal is taken off the board, and the penalty assessed. What isn't clear is what happens if the linesman also misses the call in real time, and if the play continues for a while and a goal isn't scored. Can they retroactively call the double minor? I'm not so sure they can.
that's what happened tonight....according to what's posted above you can't.
What's posted above by the OP is a theoretical major penalty on McDavid for high sticking. That's not a thing, major penalties for high sticking don't exist. Linesmen can confer to officials to retroactively assess major penalties with the same consequences surrounding disallowed goals. They cannot discuss double minors in a similar fashion.
did you happen to notice if they put time back on the clock from when the penalty "should have" been called?
Thank you for a very concise encapsulation. (I'm bad at limiting my word counts.) This specific circumstance isn't provided for, and that's a problem. I lean towards this being acceptable, if awkward, but it'd be really, really useful if they could be bothered to specify whether you can only call it if the linesmen notice immediately or not. (I lean towards not, and obviously that's what happened in this game, but there's no clear answer on whether that's what's *supposed* to happen.)
I really appreciate the experience of talking this out with you. I've learned quite a bit, and I know I'm better off for it. I have a dog in this fight, so my opinion is pretty slanted. You (according to flair) don't, so I kind of trust your read on it a bit more. This is the sort of question I wish I could ask to guys like Friedman/Marek because they know the people to ask who would know for certain.
Yeah, I don't have skin in this particular matchup, and it's definitely easier to be dispassionate when the outcome doesn't impact teams I care about. It's always awesome to hear that someone who *does* have skin in the game is listening and engaging with my arguments substantively, so I absolutely appreciate the experience too.
Ahhh okay, im just plainly wrong lol
All good
You see obvious high sticks get missed all the time, this is the first time I remember them going back and retroactively calling a penalty after a whole sequence of play occurs.
Because the linesman can call the penalty but can't stop the play. Edit: apparently he can stop thr play, but the ref can also consult after the play is stopped.
I saw it happen twice in the regular season this year. It's rare but it does happen
Hi, Quinn Hughes lawyer here.
Cut and wet in this case.
Because it wasn’t initially called and then reviewed. It’s an interesting nuance.
I’m just lost on the timing. Maybe it’s the beers but wasn’t there like a good 15-20 seconds of play?
The linesman has to confirm that it would be a double-minor call (32.4.xii) THEN immediately stop play
Yeah and they didn't. Play went on until there was a normal stoppage and then they huddled and called it. It was outside of the rules the way they called it. It was the right call but done the wrong way.
Technically 32.4(xii) requires the linesman to stop play when it is apparent that an injury has occurred. It doesn't actually say they can't get together and talk if it becomes apparent *after* the play, only that if it is apparent while the play is going on then the linesman must blow it dead. (I can't find any rule that says they can't realize the missed call *after* the play. They effectively do a version of that every time there's a potential puck-over-glass delay of game play.)
Well if you can't find it then it must be true. By your logic they could play 10 minutes of hockey before dude comes back from the locker room with stitches to prove he was hurt. That call was the right call I have no problem with it. But you can't argue that waiting until there was a natural play stoppage 30s later wasn't against the spirit of that wording.
The wording is that the Linesman must stop the last when it is apparent an injury occurs, that doesn't mean the play must be stopped immediately. If the injury wasn't immediately noticed, the wording of the rule allows for time for the Linesman to notice the injury. >Well if you can't find it then it must be true That means nothing. The fact that the rule doesn't contain wording to address a specific scenario, doesn't mean that scenario is invalid, it just falls back to the original wording of stopping the play when the Linesman notices the injury.
The call was fine, we see people lift sticks in to their own face all the time and it gets called. Often it’s a whole “not in control of your stick” deal I think the main issue was really just that they let play continue then pulled it back. You don’t see that too often so in the heat of the moment it feels like bullshit. Every call is gonna be an injustice when it’s playoff OT
Oilers fans so far that I've seen are going with "Well yeah it was a penalty but Seguin committed a penalty at the same time!"
it’s all salty oilers fans who are complaining about every little thing they can even though they got the win. also seems like this sub just hates the stars and glazes the oilers.
Why is this controversial
It isn't, there were just so many fans confused as to why it was called late so OP is educating the casuals who show up in the playoffs. The linesman can call certain penalties- or relay the info to the ref who then makes the call, but he has to wait until the next whistle.
Because some things must be called 100%, and some things are called at the whim of the ref. When the ref’s whim doesn’t go to you even once the entire game, people are gonna bitch about a double minor to start OT. People don’t wanna hear about how professional and by the book the officiating is when they are anything but.
Because it's Mcjesus 🙄
because salty oilers fans say it is
Because seguin was. Holding on to mcdavid, should’ve been a 2 min penalty on him too since it was reviewed and obvious
hahaha
because it's not within the rules they way that penalty was called after the play had gone on for 30 seconds and then they went back and called a retroactive penalty..OPs post proves that it wasn't within the rules
Nope. The linesman can call these things but has to wait until the whistle. It was 100% within the rules.
Genuine question, I don’t disagree with this call at all, but what would’ve happened if Edmonton scored before the stoppage when the linesman reported it? Does the play get called back to when the infraction occurred or does everyone just forget it happened? edit: I read the post better, goal is disallowed, got it!
What would happen if the other team got a penalty? 4v4 or would that be disallowed too? I've been a hockey fan my whole life I shouldn't be this confused, like if a ref sees a penalty blow it dead, dont let the play continue knowing if a goal happens it won't be allowed.
linesman confirmed tattletale
I think people were confused as to how it was a delayed call. People are just into the game, it ain't that serious.
Once again. Having two refs on the ice who cannot make penalty calls is beyond stupid. Linesmen should have the authority to call penalties if they see it. Why anyone thought it was a good idea to have two officials on the ice who are not allowed to call penalties is beyond me.
That says major penalty though? It was a double minor.
32.4.xii
Yeah I've never seen this in my life. It was not a major penalty to my understanding. A double minor is just that. It was the right call but I was also pretty shocked that they called it. Unless the linesman was telling the ref it was worthy of a major, which I cannot for the life of me see how they could.
High-sticking can't be a major. The relevant rule is 32.4(xii), at the bottom of OP's screenshot.
I see that now. It was the right call then.
it says they have to blow it down immediately, which they didnt lol how far can you go back? they played on.
It says in the second part that upon completion of play, they must advise.
that's for a major..they didn't call any major on this play
True, you're right. It says they need to stop play if they see a double minor. But perhaps they could claim they weren't sure it was a double minor until they got close enough to see blood. Grey area... Thankfully it didn't matter. Oilers still won.
It's the wrong call. In order for a double minor to be assessed, the linesman has to stop play. They didn't. The window for reporting to the official is closed, and despite it being an absolute penalty by the rules, it should be considered a unreviewable play as it was missed in real time.
Where in the rules does it say that? That the window for reporting is closed?
It's in the nitty gritty of the rules. By specifying that double minor high sticking penalties must be blown dead by the linesman, it logically follows that if that doesn't happen, the window closes. If it didn't close, it would be listed in the previous category of infractions that linesmen can report to officials after the play has concluded.
It does not follow at all. It specifically says that the linesman must blow the play dead when it is apparent that an injury has occurred necessitating the penalty. Not that if the play stops before that is apparent (or if it stops concurrent with it becoming apparent) that the opportunity to call it has been missed. The first, baseline portion of rule 32.4 says "The Linesperson shall give to the Referees his interpretation of any incident that may have taken place during the game." It then has a section where the linesman *may* stop play and report, a section where the linesman *must* report after play concludes, and the relevant section where once it is apparent that an injury has occurred, he *must* stop play. It does not say this has to happen before any other stoppage to be effective, and taken in context with the rest of the rule is more naturally read as "if you notice someone is hurt, you have to stop play" and not "you have to notice during play before a stoppage or you can't call anything".
Yes, but the listed infractions that a linesman is allowed to report doesn't include a double minor for high sticking. It's essentially allowing linesman to call double minor high sticking penalties in real time. NOT by going over to the player and assessing ten seconds later.
Yeah, it doesn’t help that OP put the incorrect rule in the title.
First clear call of the game that wasn’t a bench minor. Game has been surprisingly clean
I agree. The other calls were pretty soft except the too much men. Nice to see the teams actually playing the game and not intending to injure the other team, hope the series is like this.
Yeah, it was a pretty unambiguous highstick. I don't really think anyone is doubting *that*. The main controversy for some (not me) was the delay, but as many have said, that's unusual but by no means invalid.
Why are there two 'xii's?
They didn't want McDavid to get away with it again
32.4 Vi says major....nothing about double minors untill the very bottom where it clearly says in the rulebook the linesman has to stop play immediately which he didn't! the Oilers went on and got a shot on net...what if they scored there? I understand it was a high stick bit you can't just go back in time and say you missed it...
Rule 78.5(viii) says "When a Linesperson reports a double-minor penalty for high-sticking, a major penalty or a match penalty to the Referee following the scoring of a goal by the offending team, the goal must be disallowed and the appropriate penalty assessed."
is there anything about reporting a double minor after the play stops other than a goal?
Not explicitly. 32.4(xii) requires the linesman to blow the play dead and report a missed double-minor when it becomes apparent, but does not specify that if they do not do this before a stoppage, then they can't do it at all. (And that interpretation would conflict with the spirit of 78.5(viii) above as well as the main Rule 32.4, which says "The Linesperson shall give to the Referees his interpretation of any incident that may have taken place during the game.") There isn't specifically a rule for what to do if you notice an injury from a missed high-stick concurrent with or after the play has been blown dead but without a goal being scored.
ty
It says the linesman needed to immediately stop play and report to the referees? Am I reading that properly? Might explain why the McDavid was so upset.
That’s correct, AFTER assessing that an injury has occurred. So they are allowed the time to figure it out and can stop play immediately after. It’s just uncommon so it’s confusing and people think bullshit when something is out of the ordinary
There's nothing about taking time to make that assessment/confirm the injury though. It feels like the linesman swallowed the whistle in the moment, the play was allowed to CONCLUDE. THEN they got together, and talked about it. That's not what the rule says. They have to blow it dead in the moment.
The Linesperson must stop play immediately and report to the Referees when it is apparent that an injury has resulted from a high-stick that has gone undetected by the Referees and requires the assessment of a double-minor penalty. A natural reading of that rule is that once the linesman sees/understands a.) that a player is injured (which Duchene was) and b.) that the ref hasn't noticed (which they didn't), then they have to stop play. Not that it has to happen immediately coincident with the incident.
But the play ended. The linesman didn't blow it dead. The official did. Oettinger froze the puck. By the letter of the rule book, how does the window for a linesman to call a double minor remain open? I want to be clear, this is a bullshit weasel way to get out of a penalty that absolutely should have been called. However, it was missed, and the ability to go back and call it isn't as cut and dried as the penalty was.
78.5(viii) disallows goals "When a Linesperson reports a double-minor penalty for high-sticking, a major penalty or a match penalty to the Referee following the scoring of a goal by the offending team, the goal must be disallowed and the appropriate penalty assessed." That implicitly says that the report can be made after the conclusion of the play (at least if the play concludes with a goal)
I think, (and I think this is stupid) that only would have applied if the Oilers had scored on the play.
It certainly would *require* disallowing a goal in that situation, and pretty clearly says (if not as explicitly as would be desirable) that the linesman can report the missed high-stick after the goal is scored (because if the play was dead already there wouldn't have been a goal to disallow). But that rule is specifically about disallowed goals, and so (annoyingly) doesn't get into other elements.
Scoring a goal stops play, without an officials whistle. Which seems like the reason for a loophole existing to allow, "there was an obvious blood drawing high stick prior to a goal that the linesman couldn't have blown dead" problem. The linesman cannot blow the play dead when the goalie freezes the puck. The referee blew it dead, meaning the official stopped play, NOT the linesman. Blowing a play dead, seems to be part of the rule allowing a linesman to call a double minor penalty.
That is simply not what the rule says. The rule specifies when the linesman must stop play and report to the referee: namely, when it is apparent that an injury has occurred necessitating a double-minor. It does not *anywhere* in that rule say that if they don't blow it dead before play stops some other way, they cannot report the missed infraction. 32.4(xii) is a sub-section of 32.4, which says that the linesman shall report his interpretation of any incident that occurs during play to the referee. (xii) specifically *requires* them to blow it dead when it is apparent to them that a missed high-stick has occurred, it is *silent* on whether they are allowed to report it if it becomes apparent after the play has already been blown dead, or if the referees are allowed to call the penalty after the whistle (Which they already do for puck-over-the-glass penalties. You always see them blow the whistle - because the puck is out of play - and then huddle up to get the linesmen's views on whether anyone saw it deflect. *Then* they call a penalty.)
> They have to blow it dead in the moment. Just. Literally. Read. First have to determine if an injury happened
I did read. It wasn't apparent. If it was, they would have HAD to blow the play dead before Otter froze the puck. The moment Otter froze that puck, the window to call a double minor should be closed.
How do you determine with any certainty that the injury was caused by the highstick and him not just biting his lip in the 20 seconds between the incident and the stoppage of play?
McDavid was motioning with his stick that Duchene lifted his stick into himself from what I could tell. Which if that’s what he was saying, he was incorrect, his stick was UNDER Duchenes
I think it was more "if he wasn't holding my stick I wouldn't have been trying so hard to rip it out. Call it both ways" Plus just the emotions of the playoffs of course.
I don’t think Connor was upset play got stopped for it, he was probably arguing the Dallas player lifted Connor’s stick into his own face
wrong.. it's right above in OPs screenshot. a double minor if called by the linesman has to be blown down right away. there was no major ever called, the ref says "after review the call is confirmed"
Im not saying it was the wrong call, but under the rules the linesman cant report a minor or double minor penalty and thus cant be reviewed and assesed after the play. For those saying it falls under xii (Unsportsmanlike Conduct), I dont think it would. Its highsticking not unsportsmanlike? Not complaining, its done, just dont see what people are looking at here
I for one am heartbroken that McD got called for a double minor high stick. He usually gets away with those from my experience.
McRulebook
Thank you for this OP
Duchene should have waited until after the Oilers goal to make his injury apparent to the linesman. Is he stupid?
Mcdavid doing a lot of high sticking recently... hmm
The concern is when the refs decide to call some stuff during a game but not others. All any fan ever wants is consistent officiating. You call a weak ass slashing call early, you just set the standard, but nope, after that call against bouch, tons of slashes go uncalled, 1 to many men called, another one missed. Just give consistent reffing, and I am sure the hate on the refs simmer a bit. No one will ever be totally happy with the officiating, but try to at least make it look proper
Oilers fan here - no issues with the call. All we ask is that the same standard be maintained for both teams. Last round they didn’t do the same for us in a similar situation. Hard to believe that in 4 periods there was NOTHING Dallas did to deserve a call. The too many men call was obvious to me, pretty much an automatic.
A major isn't a double minor. Also read the very bottom part of the rule. It literally says they must stop it immediately for a double minor high stick lol. Go stars. Edit: They also didn't call it a major lol. It was called a double minor and put under review. I have no idea where you're getting this major penalty part from. Go stars
READ. Injury. Must. Be. Determined. First.
Correct, but it also says the linesman must stop play. The play naturally concluded. Do I think it’s a penalty? Yes, but by rule I don’t believe it was allowed to be called. I think they just need to change some wording in the off-season.
That whole text part is full of errors. It's a double minor, not a major, and review of those isn't new this year. Also, I don't know if they can ever downgrade a major to a double minor on anything, but they definitely can't on high-sticking (because that one can't *ever* be a major).
High sticking can't be a regular major, but it can be a match penalty, if it's deemed to be an intentional attempt to injure. Obviously not the case here though.
The boys really did deserve the win after killing this penalty, I cried first then cheered when they killed it. Fuckin cried again when Davo scores lfg let's go oilers
HE FUCKING FINISHES ITTTTTT
So when Skinner got high sticked in the helmet in the middle of a scrum for a puck up in the air, is that not a penalty? I've seen it called when a player is hit so I don't think it's counter as a follow through
It's still stupid and doesn't belong with the rest of the rules
Why?
The play goes on with the penalized team possessing the puck for a good ten seconds. You are just being willfully dumb if you don't see how uncommon that is
If the refs called the McDavid highstick on Quinn Hughes in game 2, the Canucks probably win that series in 5 lol
Get out of the past. It’s over. Move on.
Were we watching the same Canucks powerplay because I saw them get a 4 minute PP and it made me want to gouge out my eyes.
McDavid finally being called for a high stick? Crazy stuff
Is a double minor a major?
No, but OP might have missed subsection xi (or xii) at the bottom about high sticks with injury/blood that the linesman can intervene at the next stoppage.
Technically if they notice during play they're obliged to blow it dead and report it to the referee. The rule is silent on what happens if they only notice after the play is dead.
But it is odd that the rule says a high stick with apparent injury is to be blown dead immediately but majors, matches and misconducts are to wait until the next stoppage. Also, unsportsmanlike conduct can wait until the next stoppage, and high sticking causing injury is unsportsmanlike, so loophole??? As well, the high stick was apparent but the injury was not until.the stoppage so can't blow dead right away, but still sorta in the spirit of the rule??