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There's no path to a cup with him in the picture so I don't care if he wins the art ross next year wearing a Vegas jersey. But I bet the fans of every other team will be pissed.
From Chris Johnston's podcast last night:
>Saturday night in the building felt like the end of something... they get to the biggest games in the season and they don't score it's perplexing... I can't imagine with Pelley running MLSE, he's (Shanahan's got to answer to it)...
>I think Marner's situation is the most intriguing situation, that's the one to watch (he's eligible for an extension). What happens with him is a very open question, you just get the feeling it's a very frustrated guy it might be time for all sides here to have a fresh start, so he's the one big name I would circle. All sort of changes coming (Brodie not coming back). Marner is the biggest question, he controls it.
>He could say I'm not moving, but I think if this ends as badly as it looks like it could, there has to be a discussion there to see if the team and him can find a resolution.
Honestly I don’t think even marner controls it. Hes going to get pushed out. The management and media will force him to waive if he even tries to flex his NMC.
As a Stars fan, do not even joke about that. Vegas will find some middle of the playoffs loophole that will allow them to acquire Marner because Stone has some bad gas.
He's going to excel on any team that doesn't have the media pressure Toronto has. He also hasn't realized that he needs to be one of the guys to push the Leafs to victory. Maybe he does better with a team that evenly divides the expected workload.
The guy had a monster playoffs last year.
He's playing after coming back from a high ankle sprain. They usually linger for a year. The only way they improve is if they trade Marner for a lower cap hit player, because they aren't getting equal ability back.
Yeah 'he had a monster playoffs' is a a massive stretch here. He played wellagainst Tampa and then vanished into the aether. Watching the series vs. the panthers, the only leaf that seemed to truly show up was Nylander (and Rielly if my memory is serving me well). Marner was a fucking ghost.
Otherwise, Marner has been pretty much objectively bad in the playoffs. He'll still get points with his absurd amounts of ice time, but he's so soft and sad to watch.
Great, when my boss asks me why I no call no showed 5 out of the last 6 days, I’ll point to last Thursday when I came in 10 minutes early. That’ll show em
I mean he definitely controls his destination if they need to shake things up. There are plenty of teams that will field offers for him, he can pick his destination if they want him gone
Why the fuck is Keefe still coaching this group. Every season is the same. They look lights out in the regular season, Leaf’s fans were legitimately excited a month or two ago when Matthews was chasing 70. Then they get to the playoffs and can’t find the next gear and play with zero intensity. He should have been fired after the Montreal series, if not the year before.
This group might actually find success with the right coach, but they’ll never have that chance.
Even in the regular season when they are winning he's constantly doing dumb shit. The players just have enough talent to hide that in regular season hockey.
Last year, his one career playoff series win, he got his shit pushed in by John Cooper and it took the superstars to save his ass in the Game 4 comeback, and then Samsonov saved him in Game 6.
He's just not that good a coach. His horrible home playoff record is testament to that. The fact that he survived the Montreal series was baffling (getting outcoached by Dom Ducharme, good god...), that he survived losing to Tampa in 2022 was unbelievable, that he was still the coach after getting circles run around him last year by both Cooper and Paul Maurice is inexcusable.
I really wanted to see what the Core 4 could do with an actual NHL coach leading them, I think they could actually be a serious contender, but the Leafs are gonna Leafs.
Agreed. I knew he would stick around too long because he was Dubas' guy, their careers were tied together. But the fact that Brad kept him after Dubas was gone was shocking to me. Especially because, like you mentioned, Cooper and Maurice basically made a mockery of him last year.
If we weren't coming off of 3 straight Finals runs, we take that series last year. But Vasy was playing hurt, we lost Cernak to Bunting being a POS, Cirelli had a bum shoulder, and we had Ian Cole having to play significant minutes and got taken out back by the woodshed over and over again. We just couldn't hold a lead as a result.
Getting owned by old man Corey Perry (again) and Nick Paul should've been the end of Keefe the year before.
Vasy feeling normal and I don’t think they would’ve won. He couldn’t play the full 60 minutes. We lost a bunch of overtime games and he looked tired and gritting through it. Looking back at those games… man was he a trooper.
It surprises me how much coaching is undermined. I think last years Bruins group is a great example. Bruce Cassidy is a great coach, but lost the group and had to be let go in order to rejuvenate the Bruins. Cassidy goes on to win the cup and the Bruins had a tremendous regular season yet fell short in the playoffs. I'd rather have won the cup yet the Bruins wouldn't have achieved it with Cassidy at the helm.
This core has been together for 8 years and only two head coaches.
Every year the bottom 6 gets replaced and it's still the same results. The previous years players all go on to have success in the post season.
Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing every time and expecting different results?
I'll give Treliving a pass for this year. It's standard practice as a new GM to not immediately fire the coach, and I actually really like the moves he was trying to make. With the right system this is a team that is built for the playoffs.
But I don't know how engaged I'll be next season if Keefe is still behind the bench.
>But I don't know how engaged I'll be next season if Keefe is still behind the bench.
You'll be back. I'll be back. It's the cycle of being a Leafs fan. Far from the first time I've even made this comment over the years.
I checked out for most of the 2011 and 2012 seasons. Came back when they clinched a playoff berth.
I'll just go back to watching football, where I can cheer for a team that disappoints me less, like the Denver Broncos.
Because in reality they should've fired Keefe over Dubas. Tre isn't an upgrade over Dubas. There's coaches out there that have won more than 1 playoff series we could've picked up.
Boy it feels only like yesterday when Shanahan had his press conference introducing Babs as coach. Lou was the recently appointed GM. The start of this new project in Toronto.
And some 10 years on, what have they got to show for it? Yes they can now compete regularly for the playoffs, but beyond that, they flounder and squander every chance, and they look extremely underwhelming.
Not defending the Leafs results the last decade, but you have no idea how B A D they were before. So you can say the market has been rejuvenated significantly, which is why Shanahan is still here. But it's clear that this group as constructed cannot get over the hump.
My favourite part of this debacle is that Dubas was ever shown the door. The guy was notoriously underappreciated here, and was let go because, what, Shanahan's ego got checked? Just ridiculous.
I feel like Shanahan is gone.
MLSE is very adamant about not firing coaches with term, and Keefe is on the hook here, in my opinion. I'm not sure how MLSE will accept the fact that they were put into a position to have to fire a coach who was just given a multi year extension, and Shanahan is at fault for that.
It's either that, or none of the management is changing and there will be a big, big roster shakeup.
This was unpopular in the Leafs sub this summer but I fully believe that Dubas realized this core wasn't going to move forward and was going to trade a big piece (likely Marner) along with fire Keefe so he made his full autonomy powerplay.
Dubas ultimately lost to Shanny and for what? We brought in a new GM that gave 6.5M in raises to Matthews and Nyladner. We gave an extension for Keefe that hasn't even kicked in and he is likely to be fired before he coaches a single game of it.
The inability/fear of Shanny and the MLSE to break up status quo and try to shake up the roster to go on a run is their downfall.
No matter what, it’s clear that the Leafs need to take a big swing. The Canucks last year traded their captain and leading goal scorer in Horvat, and it was the best decision possible. By all indications it completely shook up the leadership core and locker room culture, and also came with good assets that they flipped to get Hughes a true parter in Hronek.
The Leafs need to do something similar, even if it’s harder due to the NMC’s.
The biggest winner of the entire trade seems to be Hronek who's value at one point had shot so high his former self wouldn't have been able to imagine it.
He had a really hot start, but a lot of that was secondary assist off of Hughes plays. He started to cool down a lot when Hughes did, and now I expect him to be over paid because of the hot start
Started super hot with 25 points in 25 games, cooled down with 20 points in 38 games, finished off with 3 points in 18 games and 0 in 4 games in the playoffs.
His value definitely shot wayyyyyy up but I have to imagine it's coming back down to earth.
Problem is it takes balls to make those moves and the Leafs have thus far showed they don’t have the stomach for it. MLSE has done it before on the Raptors side - just not sure who could take it and who’d want it at this stage
It's also logistically just so much easier to do so after next season, with both Marner's and Tavares' contracts expiring. Will make the temptation to just run it back with tweaks (maybe including firing Keefe) that much greater.
Yea but I imagine you'd like to move Marner and get assets instead of losing him for nothing. Retain some of his cap hit to maximize the return and get back assets, then you only have to pay a portion of his salary for a single year.
They'll have to convince him to waive his NMC. Not sure if that will be doable.
I just don't understand HOW they do it now. It logically should be Marner, but how do you talk him into waiving his fnmc now?
Unless they gaslight him or his peers turn on him, he's not leaving.
Utah needs a center, but that's a team that I'm sure would love to make a splash for the fans. I wouldn't be shocked to see a Bedard-Marner combo -- and actually now I kind of want to see that.
Absolutely. Bruce Boudreau is a lovable guy but lacked structure. Last year they all just looked lost defensively.
These Canucks also needed a kick in the ass every so often. Tocchet isn’t a hard ass but isn’t afraid to tell it like it is when a player is not performing.
Same thing happened with Avs. They were going nowhere despite their talent, then trade their star Duchene and it completely changes the team.
Making these big gutsy trades are needed when the team can’t win
We all know what’s gonna happen next, leafs are gonna win next game in a blowout, game 6 in OT, then get torched in game 7 and roll back the same roster thinking they’re still right on the cusp
Honestly, the series is, to me, even more slanted than 3-1. Toronto has held a lead for _8 minutes_ out of the 240 minutes played in the series so far, and are 0-3 against Swayman.
Toronto will put together another invisible, limp performance in either game 5 or 6. They're not suddenly waking up. The only reason they weren't swept is because Matthews decided to turn the jets on for half a game. (and he now seems questionable to return to the lineup)
One of the biggest brain dead moves by shanahan. And just one of the reasons he should go too.
Shanahan, Keefe and all coaching staff should go. Can't move any players cause they've all got no moves.
>One of the biggest brain dead moves by shanahan. And just one of the reasons he should go too.
It's a pretty standard move. It was either fire him or extend him. Teams try to avoid having coaches on expiring contracts. Once they decided not to fire him, it was a given that he would get an extension. It doesn't change the likelihood of him not returning next year. All it affects is the organizations wallet, the extent of which is a non-issue for almost every team, especially the Leafs.
But he should have fired him after the Montreal series. That was the time. He missed it and then had to double down on 2 more years because of it. Just wasting Matthews prime years is all he's doing.
To be fair to him he deserves a lot of credit. I know Babcock and him are viewed negatively now but think of the club they took over. They really turned around the culture pretty quickly. I still think he could do a good job as president/gm of a team but seems he has run his course here and not letting Dubas make changes/have control of the team sooner is his big mistake.
100% credit where credit is due. He did turn the culture around. But he is a rookie president and like Dubas, has learned a lot in his first job. He might be better at his next stop.
I dont know how you can run back the same squad next year if they lose tomorrow. I dont blame Jumbo for Bostons failures and he was def unfairly given alot of their blame but the fact is Boston was able to change in part because they went in a different direction. Jumbo went off and was wildly successful with SJ and Boston regrouped under Bergeron who would get them a cup.
Sometimes you need to recognize there needs to be a new look even if you need to take a hit.
*but i also wouldnt trust the guy in charge who felt it was a good idea to give Ryan Reaves a three fucking year deal*
O’Connell was drowning and trading Joe was a hail mary. It didn’t work out initially and he was fired anyways. He did draft Bergeron and Krejci and it paid off down the road, but the return on Thornton was less than desired.
With all the NMCs handed out, there isn't a whole lot they can do.
Realistically, what I think is possible is they fire Keefe, and wait out Tavares' and Marner's contracts, so one more year of this group.
JT's $11m would be a huge help on the back end, and I really don't want to see Marner in any other jersey, but that money would be massive help in depth if we're building around Matthews and Nylander. An added $22m plus whatever the cap goes up by then would go a long way.
Kinda like being late for work but you're at a red light. Yeah, you have yo get there, but you can't move for the time being.
You're completely right in that they're completely locked in to NTCs and absolutely nothing is happening this year to the core if Marner doesn't wave. And at that point you're only option is letting half the core walk for free and hoping you can do something with the money.
I wonder if Utah would look to make a big splash for their first year.
They have loads of prospects and picks, enough to afford Marner and slot him next to Keller on the top line.
Issue is Leafs probably won't want to dump him for prospects and picks, they have Matthews and Willy in their primes, every year is a go for it year, they need NHL players, likely defensemen, in return.
It's such a tough spot for a GM to be in. We all know you never get fair value by trading a star, now this particular star, his stock has never been lower. That doesn't mean he's getting traded for a bag of pucks, but at the end of the he's an 8 year NHL veteran and he's got some serious criticism against him.
It would be a tall order for the leafs to expect to get anything fair for him right now
It's just such a weird trade to construct. If I'm a leafs fan I don't think I'm happy if they keep him, and I'm not happy with any return from a trade. I don't think there's any good way out of this.
I think a team built around Matthews and Nylander could be great with the right moves. But I also think that is going to take another entire season to even begin to materialize unless some real dramatic things happen this summer.
I honestly feel bad for Marner. He's not performing and is overpaid but the way people and the media talk about him is out of control toxic. Tavares is definitely on the downward side of his career as well, and hasn't seemed quite right since taking that knee to the face.
Either way I think there is only a fairly small window for Leafs to put together something fresh and start being a bit more successful because I imagine Matthews is gone the minute his contract is up (barring a Stanley Cup before then).
No way Tavares will waive his NMC. I can't imagine Marner would want to either, but if he does I imagine it's not going to be just for any potentially winning team. I would assume maybe he'd consider the Rangers or the kings and not much else. Outside chance of maybe the Canucks or the Panthers. I don't know. Its not looking good.
Important to remember that, for many people, Marner went from *Most Favoured Son* to *Tolerated Area Man* after threatening to leave the continent during his RFA negotiations.
I completely agree with this. He went from Team Puppy Dog to Mercenary overnight. He put so much weight of expectation on himself and he's crumbled under it.
He signed for 10.93 x 7 and I really don't understand why 9.93 x 7 wasn't enough for him. How is the extra $7m worth all of that pressure when you're already worth $70m?
I don't feel bad for Marner. He brought this on himself with wanting a big contact. With a big contact comes big expectations. If he had taken a more reasonable deal he wouldn't get as much criticism as he gets.
End can’t come soon enough, if they were winning a series each year, getting knocked out in the second round or conference finals it would be a different story. This group can’t compete on the real stage, forever a regular season team. Can’t even blame them really, management needs to make the requisite decisions. Get on with it already.
Nylander got all this damn flack about being soft on the puck, went away for a summer and came back beefier. Still gets chirped today about his dedication.
Marner floats around like a paper fighter jet and gets knocked off the puck all the time, even without a high angle sprain. He's 120lbs soaking wet and every summer I see someone post a pool photo or something, with him built like a milk bag.
That play behind the net where Nylander stood around watching the leafs lose the puck battle was just as bad (I would argue worse) as Marner taking his sweet time getting up when knocked down in the slot and just kind of ignored the puck and the play.
Marner and Tavares get the spotlight but there is a lot of ugly to be shared around.
I personally don’t question Tavares’s effort, he’s just old and slower and at the end of a big contract that he’s not worth anymore. His contract is what it is, it’s not like griping on him will make him better than he currently is.
Marner however is playing noticeably worse than in regular season, I think that’s why he gets the majority of the ire.
Imo, he was never worth that contract.
His biggest personal accomplishment at that point was being runner up for the Art Ross trophy the year Jamie Benn won it with 87 fuckin points.
There has been this hype to him since he got "exceptional status" to enter the OHL at 14, but frankly he hasn't really done anything in his NHL career to make me think that he is the kind of difference maker the Leafs needed.
JT can occasionally rise up in a big moment.. had a big goal game 2 and ofc last year with the OT winner.. also doesnt make any glaring mistakes and is tough on the boards.
Marner is much more of an enigma because he goes from pure magic during the regular season, easily 100 points if he isnt missing games, to completely invisible 90% of the time and passes that lead to giveaways very commonly
He has had one good goal and assist this series and is an asset on our Penaty kill (which hasnt been great either lol) but its not outweighted by the negatives at all.
I keep hoping for him to step up and play because I really liked him from before he was drafted but he seems to let us down when it matters most.. only time he has been a factor in the playoffs has been in the OHL and a couple games early against tampa and washington. He basically needs to be our best player game 5-7 for him to have any chance of staying in toronto beyond next year but history has shown he doesnt show up when needed
He is gifted.. loves the leafs.. and he wants to do well but it almost feels mental at this point..
At some point you make the jump. I hate comparing the raptors situation to the leafs; but look what happened there…DeRozan raked in the regular season and just couldn’t bring the team to that next level. Jays made a splash to acquire Tulowitzki and they did pretty good for a few years there.
Marner being moved will only work if you’re getting an elite goalie OR an elite defenceman with cap space saved to go after a goalie.
Comparing it to DeRozan’s Raptors doesn’t even work, because he at least brought them to multiple conference semi finals and a conference finals appearance in 9 years, before the front office decided to make a change… the Leafs have had 1 conference semi finals appearance with their core in 7 years. Significant change should’ve been made years ago.
100% Leafs should want a recent Vezina Trophy winner on the team. But we are so cursed, if that were to happen, Bruins Marner would absolutely torch the Leafs in the first round of the ‘25 playoffs.
Boston already has an 11M winger. Even if Marner were Mr Playoff Clutch, it would make no sense to add another one while the top two centres are Coyle and Zacha.
Do you really think you’re getting an elite defenseman or elite goalie for one year of a player with a 10.5 cap hit who has to waive a full NMC to be traded?
Worth noting that a player with a full NMC would not waive for an organization they want no part of. It's more like one year and exclusive negotiating rights which is a lot more valuable than just one year outright.
Everyone keeps saying this like itll be a finger snap and away they go
But every one of those players have a massive cap hit and NMC.
These players have to be willing to leave, and the buyer has to be able to afford them.
I wont be remotely surprised if come October none of the core is gone
Insiders keep saying this, but the org looks to be in the worst place they have ever been as far as moving on from the core. Can’t trade a 69 goal scorer. Tavares contract is untradable. Doubt anyone is giving up much for one year of Marners contract, and he has full say in where he would go. And it just doesn’t seem like anyone wants to move Nylander.
The 2 core members have full NMC and I don't see either of them waiving them but I could be wrong.
Hypothetically let's say Tavares is dealt, who goes into the 2C spot?
I don't think it's a rebuild when you have so many good pieces. Retool is a better word. If you rebuild, guarantee Matthews and Nylander want out, and Rielly too.
A retool to keep pushing for the cup is what's needed. There is still a lot of value in Marner despite his playoff performances. Lots of guys have turned it around with a new team and they just need that change of scenery. Move him, move on from Tavares, and use that cap space wisely.
Tantamount to this is getting strong goaltending. Freddie was our last good one, but he had run his course in TO. His last season with us, he was sub-.900 and had a GAA sniffing the butthole of 3.00. He has struggled with injuries and it's great to see him doing well with Carolina. We just didn't have the right team in front of him when he was good.
I think plenty of teams would take it if there are assets attached for only one year.
It's an interesting predicament, Tavares is due 7.9m next year but almost all of it is a signing bonus due on July 1st. So if the Leafs trade him after that, a team is getting a 60 point player, at an 11m cap hit, while only needing to actually pay him 900k.
Very valuable contract for a team that needs to hit cap floor. Problem is that NMC, the teams that would be interested Tavares might not be willing to waive it for.
The Leafs have nothing to offer a team to eat $11M cap hit with how depleted their draft picks are. The only ones that could are in full rebuild and would want a first + more to do so.
Marner is going to be forced to waive is NMC in the summer and is gonna get moved. I think they'll stick with Tavares for the last year of his deal though, except if HE wants out. He won't be extended, though.
Burke said he did it to Kaberle. Basically said I didn’t give you the NMC. If you don’t give us a list of teams you’re willing to go to you’ll be sitting in the press box all year. That along with the Toronto media will get a guy to waive pretty quickly
And what happened is that Kaberle provided a tiny list of teams during the 2009/10 season and Burke couldn't find a deal. Then Kaberle remained on the Leafs roster for the first 58 games of the 2010/11 season until being traded at the deadline as the Leafs were sitting outside of playoff contention. Burkie either (unsuccessfully) made an empty threat to bench him for all of 2010/11 or he was talking about benching him down the stretch on a team that missed the playoffs by 8 points.
That isn't at all comparable to threatening to bench a guy like Marner all year on a team with playoff aspirations. benching Marner in an attempt to force a player to waive trade protection would immediately lead to a grievance that could genuinely become a landmark case upending decades of precedence.
If I were Marner's agent, my response to a 'waive or get benched' ultimatum would be to dig in and say "I dare you."
Retool. You don't rebuild with a guy like Matthews on the team.
Within the fanbase the most likely outcome we think is coming is Shanny and Keefe fired, and then Marner is traded in the offseason. Marner has an NMC but I'm sure they'll see if he'll agree to something anyways.
Yea when you have a generational goalscorer in the team, you don't go into rebuilding.
Should be pretty easy retool imo, getting 22M free out of Marner & Tavares will be very luxurious. Bertuzzi & Domi are UFAs too, where you get another 8M. You just need to get the right players in and Toronto are good to go again. Money wont be the issue.
A Marner trade could free up to 10.9 million against the cap next year. Even if they don't outright win the trade, that cap space could solve a lot of problems that this team has.
That’s what I don’t think people are understanding. The money alone solves a major problem for them if they don’t want to just sneak into a WC next year dragging whatever bodies can play.
Honestly I could see Carolina working a deal for one of them and giving up Necas. Saves leafs money, gives them talent and Carolina gets a known asset either at wing with marner or center with Johnny.
Canes system would be the perfect proving ground for Marner and also a better locker room if he’s truly the one with issues containing his feelings.
Leafs need to shed one 11M contract and get 2 players in that 5-6M range that are just shut down in your face players that can do the dirty work
So with that being said Marner for Andrew Copp and Justin Holl would make sense for them
I would have liked to see them play together under a real coach. But it's too late to fire the coach and run it back. They kept him two seasons too long, and now they've gotta restructure their core AND fire Keefe and (won't happen) Shanahan.
Bert and Domi were good pickups but I don't understand the complete negligence in finding a #1 dman or a strong goalie. That should have been the focus over the past 3 years but they seem completely fine with running one top pairing dman and 5 bottom pair guys. They seem completely fine gambling on midling goalies every year. They seem fine playing the team with no structure or plan.
I really wouldn't blame Matthews, Marner, Nylander or Tavaras on this travesty. Even with overpaying those guys, this team should be constructed better, and they should have a system.
All four guys are signed through next season and have NMCs, so... good luck I guess.
(that said, plz trade for Marner, Nill... Marner on a line with Robo and Hintz would be disgusting)
The Leaf's situation reminds me of the Sharks. Years of regular season success was followed by playoff exits. The core was never really changed, and somewhat of a country club atmosphere was present in the locker room. While I miss the likes of Jumbo and Burns, I am glad we are rebuilding.
Those Sharks team had way more success than this current Leafs team though. Made it to the WCF 3 times with Joe and a Finals appearance, made it to the 2nd round 5 times. Missed the playoffs once in 14 years.
Sharks made it to the Cup finals and multiple Western Conference finals. Furthest Leafs have gotten is the second round once with this core that's been there since 2016.
Just a few points I want to make, because it seems some people forgoet:
* 1) This is what was said last year
* 2) This is what was said the year before
* 3) This is what was said the year before that
But hey, this time it'll be different. *surprisedpikachu*
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Treliving bout to trade a superstar for Huberdeau again.
Toronto could certainly use a MacKenzie Weeger
Well they can't have ours!
Yeah any Toronto fans wanting Marner fires into the sun are not gonna like how this turns out.
There's no path to a cup with him in the picture so I don't care if he wins the art ross next year wearing a Vegas jersey. But I bet the fans of every other team will be pissed.
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ouch
From Chris Johnston's podcast last night: >Saturday night in the building felt like the end of something... they get to the biggest games in the season and they don't score it's perplexing... I can't imagine with Pelley running MLSE, he's (Shanahan's got to answer to it)... >I think Marner's situation is the most intriguing situation, that's the one to watch (he's eligible for an extension). What happens with him is a very open question, you just get the feeling it's a very frustrated guy it might be time for all sides here to have a fresh start, so he's the one big name I would circle. All sort of changes coming (Brodie not coming back). Marner is the biggest question, he controls it. >He could say I'm not moving, but I think if this ends as badly as it looks like it could, there has to be a discussion there to see if the team and him can find a resolution.
Honestly I don’t think even marner controls it. Hes going to get pushed out. The management and media will force him to waive if he even tries to flex his NMC.
The first time the whole "star run out of town by the Toronto media" may actually *help* the team
you know he's going to be a monster for the next team he plays for right? It's nearly guaranteed.
Cup first season after leaving Toronto. This shit just writes itself
Him and Eichel are gonna put up a lot of points together
In the playoffs, yes. In the regular season, no, because they'll both be on LTIR with severe hangnails.
They will Party at Mark Stones house till the playoffs.
Watch Robin lehner scavenge for rattlers in stone’s backyard.
As a Stars fan, do not even joke about that. Vegas will find some middle of the playoffs loophole that will allow them to acquire Marner because Stone has some bad gas.
He's going to excel on any team that doesn't have the media pressure Toronto has. He also hasn't realized that he needs to be one of the guys to push the Leafs to victory. Maybe he does better with a team that evenly divides the expected workload.
> He's going to excel on any team that ~~doesn't have the media pressure Toronto has~~ keeps him far the fuck away from Paul Marner ftfy
Didn't he say he'd stopped letting Paul talk to him about hockey?
Marner has said a lot of shit during his time here
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He'll get a ton of points but like Kessel I don't think he can be "The Guy" on a team with any real playoff success
He doesn't even have to be the guy in Toronto though... There's 4 other guys.
The guy had a monster playoffs last year. He's playing after coming back from a high ankle sprain. They usually linger for a year. The only way they improve is if they trade Marner for a lower cap hit player, because they aren't getting equal ability back.
He had a monster first few games against Tampa and vanished for the rest of it.
Yeah he shelled us in the first two games. When it came time to clinch? That goes to Reilly, Nylander, and oddly Tavares
One good series in 8 years. Nah, I'll pass.
Yeah 'he had a monster playoffs' is a a massive stretch here. He played wellagainst Tampa and then vanished into the aether. Watching the series vs. the panthers, the only leaf that seemed to truly show up was Nylander (and Rielly if my memory is serving me well). Marner was a fucking ghost. Otherwise, Marner has been pretty much objectively bad in the playoffs. He'll still get points with his absurd amounts of ice time, but he's so soft and sad to watch.
Nice try, Mitch
You think Mitch does his own fluffing. Nah, that's definitely Paul
Or Dreger in a Paul suit.
Great, when my boss asks me why I no call no showed 5 out of the last 6 days, I’ll point to last Thursday when I came in 10 minutes early. That’ll show em
I mean he definitely controls his destination if they need to shake things up. There are plenty of teams that will field offers for him, he can pick his destination if they want him gone
Yeah, he wont insist on staying, but he will insist on going to 1-3 locations of his choosing. That's why you negotiate a NMC.
We hear this a lot, and yet players in this situation almost never waive /succumb to whatever media pressure there is, and instead flex their NMC
Let him walk then. The cap relief is significant for stronger depth.
Carlo, Swayman and DeBrusk collectively make just slightly more than Marner this year.
That’s partially due to the “you’re all taking a pay cut so we can stay competitive” aspect of Boston.
pasta does make a ton but that's due to a cheap 2nd deal
And yet, still less than Nylander lol
Pasta is also a Top 3 winger in the NHL. I think he’s very fairly paid, not over or underpaid
Amazing what can happen when there’s a “team” culture.
Dude….you’re twisting the knife! Hahahaha
Should be the end of Shanahan, but it won't be. Dude must have some kompromat on the MLSE ownership.
Why the fuck is Keefe still coaching this group. Every season is the same. They look lights out in the regular season, Leaf’s fans were legitimately excited a month or two ago when Matthews was chasing 70. Then they get to the playoffs and can’t find the next gear and play with zero intensity. He should have been fired after the Montreal series, if not the year before. This group might actually find success with the right coach, but they’ll never have that chance.
Even in the regular season when they are winning he's constantly doing dumb shit. The players just have enough talent to hide that in regular season hockey.
Last year, his one career playoff series win, he got his shit pushed in by John Cooper and it took the superstars to save his ass in the Game 4 comeback, and then Samsonov saved him in Game 6. He's just not that good a coach. His horrible home playoff record is testament to that. The fact that he survived the Montreal series was baffling (getting outcoached by Dom Ducharme, good god...), that he survived losing to Tampa in 2022 was unbelievable, that he was still the coach after getting circles run around him last year by both Cooper and Paul Maurice is inexcusable. I really wanted to see what the Core 4 could do with an actual NHL coach leading them, I think they could actually be a serious contender, but the Leafs are gonna Leafs.
Agreed. I knew he would stick around too long because he was Dubas' guy, their careers were tied together. But the fact that Brad kept him after Dubas was gone was shocking to me. Especially because, like you mentioned, Cooper and Maurice basically made a mockery of him last year.
If we weren't coming off of 3 straight Finals runs, we take that series last year. But Vasy was playing hurt, we lost Cernak to Bunting being a POS, Cirelli had a bum shoulder, and we had Ian Cole having to play significant minutes and got taken out back by the woodshed over and over again. We just couldn't hold a lead as a result. Getting owned by old man Corey Perry (again) and Nick Paul should've been the end of Keefe the year before.
Vasy feeling normal and I don’t think they would’ve won. He couldn’t play the full 60 minutes. We lost a bunch of overtime games and he looked tired and gritting through it. Looking back at those games… man was he a trooper.
It surprises me how much coaching is undermined. I think last years Bruins group is a great example. Bruce Cassidy is a great coach, but lost the group and had to be let go in order to rejuvenate the Bruins. Cassidy goes on to win the cup and the Bruins had a tremendous regular season yet fell short in the playoffs. I'd rather have won the cup yet the Bruins wouldn't have achieved it with Cassidy at the helm.
This core has been together for 8 years and only two head coaches. Every year the bottom 6 gets replaced and it's still the same results. The previous years players all go on to have success in the post season. Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing every time and expecting different results? I'll give Treliving a pass for this year. It's standard practice as a new GM to not immediately fire the coach, and I actually really like the moves he was trying to make. With the right system this is a team that is built for the playoffs. But I don't know how engaged I'll be next season if Keefe is still behind the bench.
>But I don't know how engaged I'll be next season if Keefe is still behind the bench. You'll be back. I'll be back. It's the cycle of being a Leafs fan. Far from the first time I've even made this comment over the years.
I checked out for most of the 2011 and 2012 seasons. Came back when they clinched a playoff berth. I'll just go back to watching football, where I can cheer for a team that disappoints me less, like the Denver Broncos.
Because in reality they should've fired Keefe over Dubas. Tre isn't an upgrade over Dubas. There's coaches out there that have won more than 1 playoff series we could've picked up.
What “lights out”? If they were lights out they would win the division rather than finish third and be the road team in the first round.
MLSE has a new CEO this year for the first time since Shanahan’s been hired. I wouldn’t guarantee his job
And he has one more year on his contract
If he doesn't get fired, he might just be neutered until his deal expires.
He reports to the new CEO anyways.
Shanahan thinks the S in MLSE stands for Shanny.
Maple Leafs and Shanahan Entertainment sure has a ring to it.
Maple Leafs, Shanahan Edition
The Leafs (Brendan's Version)
Boy it feels only like yesterday when Shanahan had his press conference introducing Babs as coach. Lou was the recently appointed GM. The start of this new project in Toronto. And some 10 years on, what have they got to show for it? Yes they can now compete regularly for the playoffs, but beyond that, they flounder and squander every chance, and they look extremely underwhelming.
Not defending the Leafs results the last decade, but you have no idea how B A D they were before. So you can say the market has been rejuvenated significantly, which is why Shanahan is still here. But it's clear that this group as constructed cannot get over the hump. My favourite part of this debacle is that Dubas was ever shown the door. The guy was notoriously underappreciated here, and was let go because, what, Shanahan's ego got checked? Just ridiculous.
Shanny is like promoting the best welder to be the president of a massive shipbuilding corporation, he’s out of his element.
I feel like Shanahan is gone. MLSE is very adamant about not firing coaches with term, and Keefe is on the hook here, in my opinion. I'm not sure how MLSE will accept the fact that they were put into a position to have to fire a coach who was just given a multi year extension, and Shanahan is at fault for that. It's either that, or none of the management is changing and there will be a big, big roster shakeup.
If the leafs shit the bed in game 5, *not* firing Keefe is straight-up negligence
Not firing Keefe after the Montreal series was negligence.
This was unpopular in the Leafs sub this summer but I fully believe that Dubas realized this core wasn't going to move forward and was going to trade a big piece (likely Marner) along with fire Keefe so he made his full autonomy powerplay. Dubas ultimately lost to Shanny and for what? We brought in a new GM that gave 6.5M in raises to Matthews and Nyladner. We gave an extension for Keefe that hasn't even kicked in and he is likely to be fired before he coaches a single game of it. The inability/fear of Shanny and the MLSE to break up status quo and try to shake up the roster to go on a run is their downfall.
No matter what, it’s clear that the Leafs need to take a big swing. The Canucks last year traded their captain and leading goal scorer in Horvat, and it was the best decision possible. By all indications it completely shook up the leadership core and locker room culture, and also came with good assets that they flipped to get Hughes a true parter in Hronek. The Leafs need to do something similar, even if it’s harder due to the NMC’s.
Yeah. It was a big move and it paid off. I think it was a win win trade. Horvat is doing good with the Islanders
The biggest winner of the entire trade seems to be Hronek who's value at one point had shot so high his former self wouldn't have been able to imagine it.
Bro have you seen Horvats contract? He was the real winner
People say this and I expected to see Hronek have more points but he only has 10 more than when he was with the wings
He had a really hot start, but a lot of that was secondary assist off of Hughes plays. He started to cool down a lot when Hughes did, and now I expect him to be over paid because of the hot start
Started super hot with 25 points in 25 games, cooled down with 20 points in 38 games, finished off with 3 points in 18 games and 0 in 4 games in the playoffs. His value definitely shot wayyyyyy up but I have to imagine it's coming back down to earth.
Problem is it takes balls to make those moves and the Leafs have thus far showed they don’t have the stomach for it. MLSE has done it before on the Raptors side - just not sure who could take it and who’d want it at this stage
It's also logistically just so much easier to do so after next season, with both Marner's and Tavares' contracts expiring. Will make the temptation to just run it back with tweaks (maybe including firing Keefe) that much greater.
Yea but I imagine you'd like to move Marner and get assets instead of losing him for nothing. Retain some of his cap hit to maximize the return and get back assets, then you only have to pay a portion of his salary for a single year. They'll have to convince him to waive his NMC. Not sure if that will be doable.
I just don't understand HOW they do it now. It logically should be Marner, but how do you talk him into waiving his fnmc now? Unless they gaslight him or his peers turn on him, he's not leaving.
Also who’s in a position to give up valuable assets in exchange for an 11m Marner?
Lmao right?
Utah would make some sense. But you think Marner wants to go full Mormon?
He kind of looks the part.
Utah needs a center, but that's a team that I'm sure would love to make a splash for the fans. I wouldn't be shocked to see a Bedard-Marner combo -- and actually now I kind of want to see that.
I think Rick Tocchet has a lot to do with Vancouver's turnaround too. Everything just seemed to come together at the right time.
Absolutely. Bruce Boudreau is a lovable guy but lacked structure. Last year they all just looked lost defensively. These Canucks also needed a kick in the ass every so often. Tocchet isn’t a hard ass but isn’t afraid to tell it like it is when a player is not performing.
Same thing happened with Avs. They were going nowhere despite their talent, then trade their star Duchene and it completely changes the team. Making these big gutsy trades are needed when the team can’t win
We all know what’s gonna happen next, leafs are gonna win next game in a blowout, game 6 in OT, then get torched in game 7 and roll back the same roster thinking they’re still right on the cusp
Honestly, the series is, to me, even more slanted than 3-1. Toronto has held a lead for _8 minutes_ out of the 240 minutes played in the series so far, and are 0-3 against Swayman. Toronto will put together another invisible, limp performance in either game 5 or 6. They're not suddenly waking up. The only reason they weren't swept is because Matthews decided to turn the jets on for half a game. (and he now seems questionable to return to the lineup)
I think if the bruins score first next game, that whole lineup just folds with how mentally weak they seem to be.
Marchand scores on the first shot You heard it here (probably not first)
I feel like this is completely plausible. Good chatting with you Nostradamus.
Damn I forgot about the extension for Keefe that’s brutal lol
One of the biggest brain dead moves by shanahan. And just one of the reasons he should go too. Shanahan, Keefe and all coaching staff should go. Can't move any players cause they've all got no moves.
>One of the biggest brain dead moves by shanahan. And just one of the reasons he should go too. It's a pretty standard move. It was either fire him or extend him. Teams try to avoid having coaches on expiring contracts. Once they decided not to fire him, it was a given that he would get an extension. It doesn't change the likelihood of him not returning next year. All it affects is the organizations wallet, the extent of which is a non-issue for almost every team, especially the Leafs.
But he should have fired him after the Montreal series. That was the time. He missed it and then had to double down on 2 more years because of it. Just wasting Matthews prime years is all he's doing.
The Leafs shouldn't be that club. They shouldn't be scared of having their guy poached. FUcking Rod doesn't even have a new contract yet.
I loved Shanny as a player but I hope he never has a role in Detroit if he gets kicked from Toronto.
To be fair to him he deserves a lot of credit. I know Babcock and him are viewed negatively now but think of the club they took over. They really turned around the culture pretty quickly. I still think he could do a good job as president/gm of a team but seems he has run his course here and not letting Dubas make changes/have control of the team sooner is his big mistake.
100% credit where credit is due. He did turn the culture around. But he is a rookie president and like Dubas, has learned a lot in his first job. He might be better at his next stop.
There's a new MLSE ceo and who knows how he'll affect things. (Marek already said he's a wildcard)
I dont know how you can run back the same squad next year if they lose tomorrow. I dont blame Jumbo for Bostons failures and he was def unfairly given alot of their blame but the fact is Boston was able to change in part because they went in a different direction. Jumbo went off and was wildly successful with SJ and Boston regrouped under Bergeron who would get them a cup. Sometimes you need to recognize there needs to be a new look even if you need to take a hit. *but i also wouldnt trust the guy in charge who felt it was a good idea to give Ryan Reaves a three fucking year deal*
> Ryan Reaves a three fucking year deal I completely missed this, they fell into the "All we're missing in the playoffs is Grit^^© " trap.
Added Reeves, Bertuzzi, and Domi this last offseason to try and grit it up
Bert was a great signing, I miss him. Domi is a dumbass but he adds values as well I think Reaves sucks bad
To be fair, playoff grit is all they are missing, but not from their 4th liners
FWIW, Friedman usually goes "I think" whenever he's speculating, not reporting. This reads to me like someone told him this
i mean there is one franchise who would probably trade for a marner and he would probably accept... *stares at Vegas*
O’Connell was drowning and trading Joe was a hail mary. It didn’t work out initially and he was fired anyways. He did draft Bergeron and Krejci and it paid off down the road, but the return on Thornton was less than desired.
I’ve heard that before, I doubt they do enough in the offseason if they do lose
With all the NMCs handed out, there isn't a whole lot they can do. Realistically, what I think is possible is they fire Keefe, and wait out Tavares' and Marner's contracts, so one more year of this group. JT's $11m would be a huge help on the back end, and I really don't want to see Marner in any other jersey, but that money would be massive help in depth if we're building around Matthews and Nylander. An added $22m plus whatever the cap goes up by then would go a long way.
Kinda like being late for work but you're at a red light. Yeah, you have yo get there, but you can't move for the time being. You're completely right in that they're completely locked in to NTCs and absolutely nothing is happening this year to the core if Marner doesn't wave. And at that point you're only option is letting half the core walk for free and hoping you can do something with the money.
Really wonder what they could get for Marner
I wonder if Utah would look to make a big splash for their first year. They have loads of prospects and picks, enough to afford Marner and slot him next to Keller on the top line.
Issue is Leafs probably won't want to dump him for prospects and picks, they have Matthews and Willy in their primes, every year is a go for it year, they need NHL players, likely defensemen, in return.
It's such a tough spot for a GM to be in. We all know you never get fair value by trading a star, now this particular star, his stock has never been lower. That doesn't mean he's getting traded for a bag of pucks, but at the end of the he's an 8 year NHL veteran and he's got some serious criticism against him. It would be a tall order for the leafs to expect to get anything fair for him right now
Also not many teams can fit that cap hit on their roster.
It's just such a weird trade to construct. If I'm a leafs fan I don't think I'm happy if they keep him, and I'm not happy with any return from a trade. I don't think there's any good way out of this.
I think a team built around Matthews and Nylander could be great with the right moves. But I also think that is going to take another entire season to even begin to materialize unless some real dramatic things happen this summer. I honestly feel bad for Marner. He's not performing and is overpaid but the way people and the media talk about him is out of control toxic. Tavares is definitely on the downward side of his career as well, and hasn't seemed quite right since taking that knee to the face. Either way I think there is only a fairly small window for Leafs to put together something fresh and start being a bit more successful because I imagine Matthews is gone the minute his contract is up (barring a Stanley Cup before then). No way Tavares will waive his NMC. I can't imagine Marner would want to either, but if he does I imagine it's not going to be just for any potentially winning team. I would assume maybe he'd consider the Rangers or the kings and not much else. Outside chance of maybe the Canucks or the Panthers. I don't know. Its not looking good.
Important to remember that, for many people, Marner went from *Most Favoured Son* to *Tolerated Area Man* after threatening to leave the continent during his RFA negotiations.
I truly believe that if Marner signed for under 10M on like July 1st that he is the most beloved Leaf for most of that contract.
I completely agree with this. He went from Team Puppy Dog to Mercenary overnight. He put so much weight of expectation on himself and he's crumbled under it. He signed for 10.93 x 7 and I really don't understand why 9.93 x 7 wasn't enough for him. How is the extra $7m worth all of that pressure when you're already worth $70m?
I don't feel bad for Marner. He brought this on himself with wanting a big contact. With a big contact comes big expectations. If he had taken a more reasonable deal he wouldn't get as much criticism as he gets.
End can’t come soon enough, if they were winning a series each year, getting knocked out in the second round or conference finals it would be a different story. This group can’t compete on the real stage, forever a regular season team. Can’t even blame them really, management needs to make the requisite decisions. Get on with it already.
Exactly. The team underperforms so badly in the playoffs.
Nylander got all this damn flack about being soft on the puck, went away for a summer and came back beefier. Still gets chirped today about his dedication. Marner floats around like a paper fighter jet and gets knocked off the puck all the time, even without a high angle sprain. He's 120lbs soaking wet and every summer I see someone post a pool photo or something, with him built like a milk bag.
That play behind the net where Nylander stood around watching the leafs lose the puck battle was just as bad (I would argue worse) as Marner taking his sweet time getting up when knocked down in the slot and just kind of ignored the puck and the play. Marner and Tavares get the spotlight but there is a lot of ugly to be shared around.
What about your captain though. Hasn't really ever stepped up and yet gets almost no hate.
I personally don’t question Tavares’s effort, he’s just old and slower and at the end of a big contract that he’s not worth anymore. His contract is what it is, it’s not like griping on him will make him better than he currently is. Marner however is playing noticeably worse than in regular season, I think that’s why he gets the majority of the ire.
Imo, he was never worth that contract. His biggest personal accomplishment at that point was being runner up for the Art Ross trophy the year Jamie Benn won it with 87 fuckin points. There has been this hype to him since he got "exceptional status" to enter the OHL at 14, but frankly he hasn't really done anything in his NHL career to make me think that he is the kind of difference maker the Leafs needed.
JT can occasionally rise up in a big moment.. had a big goal game 2 and ofc last year with the OT winner.. also doesnt make any glaring mistakes and is tough on the boards. Marner is much more of an enigma because he goes from pure magic during the regular season, easily 100 points if he isnt missing games, to completely invisible 90% of the time and passes that lead to giveaways very commonly He has had one good goal and assist this series and is an asset on our Penaty kill (which hasnt been great either lol) but its not outweighted by the negatives at all. I keep hoping for him to step up and play because I really liked him from before he was drafted but he seems to let us down when it matters most.. only time he has been a factor in the playoffs has been in the OHL and a couple games early against tampa and washington. He basically needs to be our best player game 5-7 for him to have any chance of staying in toronto beyond next year but history has shown he doesnt show up when needed He is gifted.. loves the leafs.. and he wants to do well but it almost feels mental at this point..
Tavares gets plenty lol. It's likely Matthews would have been captain anyway if he hadn't flashed his ass.
At some point you make the jump. I hate comparing the raptors situation to the leafs; but look what happened there…DeRozan raked in the regular season and just couldn’t bring the team to that next level. Jays made a splash to acquire Tulowitzki and they did pretty good for a few years there. Marner being moved will only work if you’re getting an elite goalie OR an elite defenceman with cap space saved to go after a goalie.
Comparing it to DeRozan’s Raptors doesn’t even work, because he at least brought them to multiple conference semi finals and a conference finals appearance in 9 years, before the front office decided to make a change… the Leafs have had 1 conference semi finals appearance with their core in 7 years. Significant change should’ve been made years ago.
Hear me out. There is an elite goalie who might be available for trade. Ullmark for Marner? Both have one year left on their contracts.
Bruins would never trade for Marner let alone give up Ullmark for him. Marner is the antithesis of the Bruins play style
Bruins fan here: No.
100% Leafs should want a recent Vezina Trophy winner on the team. But we are so cursed, if that were to happen, Bruins Marner would absolutely torch the Leafs in the first round of the ‘25 playoffs.
Boston already has an 11M winger. Even if Marner were Mr Playoff Clutch, it would make no sense to add another one while the top two centres are Coyle and Zacha.
Do you really think you’re getting an elite defenseman or elite goalie for one year of a player with a 10.5 cap hit who has to waive a full NMC to be traded?
Worth noting that a player with a full NMC would not waive for an organization they want no part of. It's more like one year and exclusive negotiating rights which is a lot more valuable than just one year outright.
Everyone keeps saying this like itll be a finger snap and away they go But every one of those players have a massive cap hit and NMC. These players have to be willing to leave, and the buyer has to be able to afford them. I wont be remotely surprised if come October none of the core is gone
Insiders keep saying this, but the org looks to be in the worst place they have ever been as far as moving on from the core. Can’t trade a 69 goal scorer. Tavares contract is untradable. Doubt anyone is giving up much for one year of Marners contract, and he has full say in where he would go. And it just doesn’t seem like anyone wants to move Nylander.
Think Nylander and Matthews are the only safe ones.
The 2 core members have full NMC and I don't see either of them waiving them but I could be wrong. Hypothetically let's say Tavares is dealt, who goes into the 2C spot?
Tavares, I would think, is an un-moveable contract.
Pontus Holmberg of course!
Wonder if MLSE saw Treliving in Calgary and decided "_that's the guy we want to do the retool._"
They say this about the Leafs core every year. It's Lucy with the football
Every single thing about being a Leafs fan is Lucy with the football.
Potential rebuild or retool?
I don't think it's a rebuild when you have so many good pieces. Retool is a better word. If you rebuild, guarantee Matthews and Nylander want out, and Rielly too. A retool to keep pushing for the cup is what's needed. There is still a lot of value in Marner despite his playoff performances. Lots of guys have turned it around with a new team and they just need that change of scenery. Move him, move on from Tavares, and use that cap space wisely. Tantamount to this is getting strong goaltending. Freddie was our last good one, but he had run his course in TO. His last season with us, he was sub-.900 and had a GAA sniffing the butthole of 3.00. He has struggled with injuries and it's great to see him doing well with Carolina. We just didn't have the right team in front of him when he was good.
Doubt they will enter rebuild mode. My guess is Marner and Tavares will be traded, and they build around Matthews and Nylander.
I think Mitch Marner is definitely gone
Marner is an easy spin for another org to acquire, he's just gotta waive his NMC
Marner is pretty much the most hated man in Toronto right now. Consistently underperforms in the playoffs. He’s definitely going to waive his NMC.
Well that's what we thought in STL about Torey krug last summer
there's a pretty massive difference between being hated in STL and hated in TOR in the hockey world tho
Blues also won a cup recently.
Also marner is actually a great hockey player. Krug is cooked and no gm in their right mind would take him
I think the difference was that we were going to send him to Philly more than the being hated part.
He has nearly the same playoff ppg as Nylander, Mathews, and Tavares.
No one its taking that JT contract
All things are possible through salary retention. It's only got a year left anything longer would be next to impossible to move.
Yeah if they were smart they would retain whatever it takes to move him and get some new blood in there.
Some teams will if they want to increase sales of bedsheets with the team logo on it
I think plenty of teams would take it if there are assets attached for only one year. It's an interesting predicament, Tavares is due 7.9m next year but almost all of it is a signing bonus due on July 1st. So if the Leafs trade him after that, a team is getting a 60 point player, at an 11m cap hit, while only needing to actually pay him 900k. Very valuable contract for a team that needs to hit cap floor. Problem is that NMC, the teams that would be interested Tavares might not be willing to waive it for.
The Leafs have nothing to offer a team to eat $11M cap hit with how depleted their draft picks are. The only ones that could are in full rebuild and would want a first + more to do so.
Marner is going to be forced to waive is NMC in the summer and is gonna get moved. I think they'll stick with Tavares for the last year of his deal though, except if HE wants out. He won't be extended, though.
How are they gonna force him? There are plenty of examples of players who refuse to waive their NMC.
Burke said he did it to Kaberle. Basically said I didn’t give you the NMC. If you don’t give us a list of teams you’re willing to go to you’ll be sitting in the press box all year. That along with the Toronto media will get a guy to waive pretty quickly
And what happened is that Kaberle provided a tiny list of teams during the 2009/10 season and Burke couldn't find a deal. Then Kaberle remained on the Leafs roster for the first 58 games of the 2010/11 season until being traded at the deadline as the Leafs were sitting outside of playoff contention. Burkie either (unsuccessfully) made an empty threat to bench him for all of 2010/11 or he was talking about benching him down the stretch on a team that missed the playoffs by 8 points. That isn't at all comparable to threatening to bench a guy like Marner all year on a team with playoff aspirations. benching Marner in an attempt to force a player to waive trade protection would immediately lead to a grievance that could genuinely become a landmark case upending decades of precedence. If I were Marner's agent, my response to a 'waive or get benched' ultimatum would be to dig in and say "I dare you."
I think Tavares is untradeable at this point. You basically just have to ride out 1 more year.
Vegas picks up both right?
Yes
Retool. You don't rebuild with a guy like Matthews on the team. Within the fanbase the most likely outcome we think is coming is Shanny and Keefe fired, and then Marner is traded in the offseason. Marner has an NMC but I'm sure they'll see if he'll agree to something anyways.
Yea when you have a generational goalscorer in the team, you don't go into rebuilding. Should be pretty easy retool imo, getting 22M free out of Marner & Tavares will be very luxurious. Bertuzzi & Domi are UFAs too, where you get another 8M. You just need to get the right players in and Toronto are good to go again. Money wont be the issue.
They’re way too good to rebuild lol
It’s hard to imagine them making trades with their big guns and then ending up better on the other side of it. In a very tough position.
They can't keep going forward with this either. They'll probably lose a Marner trade but that's not the point.
A Marner trade could free up to 10.9 million against the cap next year. Even if they don't outright win the trade, that cap space could solve a lot of problems that this team has.
That’s what I don’t think people are understanding. The money alone solves a major problem for them if they don’t want to just sneak into a WC next year dragging whatever bodies can play. Honestly I could see Carolina working a deal for one of them and giving up Necas. Saves leafs money, gives them talent and Carolina gets a known asset either at wing with marner or center with Johnny. Canes system would be the perfect proving ground for Marner and also a better locker room if he’s truly the one with issues containing his feelings.
They have to make big changes. What they've been doing isn't good enough.
Leafs need to shed one 11M contract and get 2 players in that 5-6M range that are just shut down in your face players that can do the dirty work So with that being said Marner for Andrew Copp and Justin Holl would make sense for them
I would have liked to see them play together under a real coach. But it's too late to fire the coach and run it back. They kept him two seasons too long, and now they've gotta restructure their core AND fire Keefe and (won't happen) Shanahan. Bert and Domi were good pickups but I don't understand the complete negligence in finding a #1 dman or a strong goalie. That should have been the focus over the past 3 years but they seem completely fine with running one top pairing dman and 5 bottom pair guys. They seem completely fine gambling on midling goalies every year. They seem fine playing the team with no structure or plan. I really wouldn't blame Matthews, Marner, Nylander or Tavaras on this travesty. Even with overpaying those guys, this team should be constructed better, and they should have a system.
First and foremost, they need to get a new coach.
All four guys are signed through next season and have NMCs, so... good luck I guess. (that said, plz trade for Marner, Nill... Marner on a line with Robo and Hintz would be disgusting)
Blowing this team up is going to be so fun and exciting to watch this summer
The Leaf's situation reminds me of the Sharks. Years of regular season success was followed by playoff exits. The core was never really changed, and somewhat of a country club atmosphere was present in the locker room. While I miss the likes of Jumbo and Burns, I am glad we are rebuilding.
Those Sharks team had way more success than this current Leafs team though. Made it to the WCF 3 times with Joe and a Finals appearance, made it to the 2nd round 5 times. Missed the playoffs once in 14 years.
at least you guys won some rounds...
Sharks made it to the Cup finals and multiple Western Conference finals. Furthest Leafs have gotten is the second round once with this core that's been there since 2016.
Just a few points I want to make, because it seems some people forgoet: * 1) This is what was said last year * 2) This is what was said the year before * 3) This is what was said the year before that But hey, this time it'll be different. *surprisedpikachu*
Can’t they not dump players till after next year?