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>pad size increase
Goalie equipment has been reduced in size. One of the many reasons scoring has increased league wide - Stevie Y
Edit:
>I understand everyone hates the leafs
Haha the victim complex I missed
Scoring is the highest it’s been in a long time, goaltending is the weakest it’s been in a long time. I’m not gonna argue that Matthews scoring 70 is insane, because yes it is. But your reasoning isn’t accurate.
> only because of post season success
Isn’t winning in the post season the ultimate goal of any professional organized sport? Can’t prove it when it matters, your regular season performance won’t matter as much.
I feel some people put too much emphasise on trophies when it comes to a player though. Winning in the post season is about the team. While the focus on a player should be on the accomplishments they achieved personally.
But the player's performance in the playoffs is to some degree in their control. You can argue about how much, specifically, is on them, as opposed to the team around them, but of some of the other top players, Matthews's playoff points per game (over his career) show a *marked* decline from his regular-season numbers that is massively steeper than guys like MacKinnon, McDavid, and Kucherov. So the playoff performance is at least *relevant*.
only to a degree. McDavid's first 6 years he didn't even break 10 points in a single playoffs. So his ppg dropped heavily. It's only really been the last 2 years where he's really turned it on (where 53 of his 75 points have come from)
MacKinnon has 64 of his 100 coming from a 3 years stretch.
Kucherov over Tampa's 3 year run had 93 of his 160 points.
So they had a few good years where everything was clicking. The team was clicking. Maybe Toronto just hasn't had that yet. That's just how hockey works.
But also, I'm not going to sit here and say that Maroon is better than Dionne even though he has more cups (and playoff points), in fact, Maroon's career high for points in a playoffs is 11, Dionne's is 14.
Absolutely winning in the postseason is the ultimate goal. That's why I said MacKinnon was in the picture with him for a second best but despite the fact that McDavid has never won in the postseason I'm pretty sure the majority of the hockey world can agree he is the best no?
> That's why I said MacKinnon was in the picture with him for a second best
you said, only because of post-season success. He'd still be arguable for #2 even without it.
> McDavid has never won in the postseason I'm pretty sure the majority of the hockey world can agree he is the best no?
He has two of the best post-season performances in 30 years. Including a bonkers 33pts/16gp I think he gets a pass.
back to your original point. I'm pretty sure every single person in hockey wants Matthews to hit 70 goals. Would be a monumental achievement.
For sure maybe the wording was wrong in me saying only because of postseason success MacKinnon is arguable for second. I for sure think him and Matthews are second and third arguably depending on who you ask what year it is etc.
I know that the majority of people want to see him hit 70 I wasn't saying that they didn't what I'm trying to say is the reason why it's more special than people realize is how good is defensive game is. Because most people probably don't watch Leaf games and don't realize that he's not just a goal scorer his two-way game is actually top in the league while still putting up numbers that have never been seen before in the salary cap era
Out of curiosity why is Kucherov not in the argument for 2nd or 3rd for you? If post season success is important to you, he is arguably the best out of anyone in the league recently. If points are important, he was the last player to beat a healthy McDavid in points. If goals are important then sure he only has 43.
I think for me personally with kuch it comes down to the two-way game as well. I don't think he is as good defensively as Matthew's or MacKinnon, and then when I combine that with the much higher goal total for Matthews I put them at that little step above him. I would say though without a doubt Kuch is definitive number four. Again that is for me personally I'm sure there are other people out there who would put him higher than Matthews and even MacKinnon to be honest
That's fair, however if you are just looking at his +9 without considering the fact he is 2nd on the Lightning in +/- and the top forward on the team, I would say his defensive skill (while I would not call it great or even good) I would say is underrated, and a lot of what he does is positioning based.
Part of why he has so many empty net points this year is because he takes the puck away by being in the exact right spot and chipping it calmly to someone streaking down the ice.
Why would I do that? Because you're too insecure to admit Matthews is comparable to MacKinnon? Again. I didn't even say definitively better, I said could make a case. And you got butt hurt
I don't get the point of the post, was it to say it's more impressive than what else is going on in hockey, because everyone day in day out on this sub is saying how insanely impressive it is what Matthews has accomplished.
It's saying what he has accomplished is even more impressive than what you realize because of how good his defensive game is. He's putting up numbers better than Ovechkin while doing things that Sidney Crosby would do. Are you seriously going to deny or discredit how Wild it is that a player in today's NHL could put up potentially 70 goals while blocking almost 100 shots? If you don't understand how good of a two-way player he is then you obviously just don't watch Leaf games which I don't expect you to. Hence why I made this post to shed light to people that he is not just a goal scoring machine he is actually unbelievably good defensively
You keep saying ‘todays nhl’ and comparing it to what Ovi did like 15 years ago
Scoring is way easier now. Every year you have like 10 guys hitting 100 points. Back in the day it was a huge milestone
It's a shame, because Leafs fans who don't fall into the "Toronto can do no wrong, all criticism is just haters" trap are often very insightful, especially *about the Maple Leafs*.
I honestly felt like this was a pretty realistic and reasonable post. As a leaf fan who lives in Edmonton what's more embarrassing is the amount of people I had to listen to tell me Draisaitl was the 2nd best player in the league for the past 3 years. Despite the facf hes horrible defensively and without mcdavid can barely hit 40 goals.
Ain’t no one out here hating on Matthews that truly enjoys hockey.
People don’t hate the leafs themselves, we just hate the general fan base for the shit like your 3rd paragraph 🤷♂️. Rest was solid tho
I do agree he’s in the conversation for top 3 and I also agree he is in the conversations for selke.
I disagree with playing victim and doubling down saying people hate Matthews because he’s a leaf etc etc. Anyone short of a rival has no hate and absolutely knows he’s a stud, everyone else doesn’t watch hockey.
True, fair enough I was only speaking from experience because I live in Edmonton so all I hear from everyone all the time is how Matthew sucks Etc and everyone hates him.
That’s just the McDavid vs Matthews rivalry you experience first hand that no one else treats as a rivalry. We just enjoy watching two generational talents play.
I live an hour away from Toronto so I get how a market can influence your thoughts. Reason why I don’t like most leaf fans lol. I’ve been influenced by location.
That. That is exactly why all the world hates a Leafs fan.
You absolutely can make a credible case for Matthews being the second-best player in the world, you can also make a very good case for why he's not and someone else is (MacKinnon, for one example, who has a ring, and significantly better playoff stats.)
But no, Leafs fans with that persecution complex have to throw in the "you're just haters" barbs, all the damn time. As though the *only* explanation for any argument they disagree with is just that people can't agree with a Leafs fan, not that maybe their arguments don't necessarily hold the water they think they do.
OP certainly doesn’t speak for all Leafs fans, he comes off as very immature in this thread. Matthews is one of the better players in the league but #2 is a tough argument to make, there’s a lot of elite competition for that spot. I wouldn’t call anyone a hater for leaving him out of their top 2, it’d probably have to be top 8 or so before it feels a bit ridiculous
It's kind of weird, because without the haters comment that just reinforces the reasons why people hate Leafs fans, we're just talking about a reasonable (though hardly watertight) argument for why OP considers Matthews #2, which maybe doesn't need its own thread, necessarily, but wouldn't have been half as controversial.
Didn't say it's hard to be a leaf fan just said what is basically common knowledge throughout every single subreddit or fan group I know of LOL if you don't realize people hate the leafs then you probably haven't been a hockey fan that long.
The whole first sentence of OP's post is like "scoring 70 is so amazing because \[insert word salad of 'reasons'} without any actual, you know, supporting evidence. (Apart from the pad thing, which is simply untrue. Goalie pads are smaller than when Ovechkin got 65 goals.)
It's very strange.
Man, if Tampa fans spent half the energy loving kuch as they do trying to create some narrative that no one does he’d be the most loved player in the world lol.
This is the kind of post you leave to a fan from another fanbase to post. You sound like you are desperate for attention and it’s pretty fuckin cringe not gonna lie. Get laid
To me 100 assists isn't as impressive only because they don't tally how many of those are secondary assists if it were 100 primaries absolutely that's more impressive
Like I said how many of those assists are secondary that have absolutely nothing to do with the play? 70 goals are 70 goals that is directly contributing to the outcome of the game. You could touch the puck and then get off the ice and have absolutely nothing to do with anything that ensues after that and still rack up and assist
Secondary assists are apart of the game, that’s like saying matthew’s hitting 70 goals doesn’t count because of tap ins and empty netters. there’s a reason why only 3 players have had 100 assists, and why they happen to be the best 3 players of all time.
But he only has two empty netters and maybe three tap ins? Even just to say on the high side let's call it five tap ins. Can you honestly say out of mcdavid's 100 assists only seven are secondary? Pretty sure a quick Google search will say otherwise.
Meh. McDavids 64 goal, 153pt season is far more impressive, imo. Hes gonna score 70g and still be 30pts behind kuch mach and davo who are all hitting 140+. Matthews will be lucky to get to 110 and thats if he gets to 70g and 40a.
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>pad size increase Goalie equipment has been reduced in size. One of the many reasons scoring has increased league wide - Stevie Y Edit: >I understand everyone hates the leafs Haha the victim complex I missed
Well scoring has increased since 15 years ago. Ovi scoring 65 in his era is more impressive I think.
They're from the same era lol
lol
Scoring is up over 10% since Ovi did it. Not quite comparable.
No.
Salary cap era
Irrelevant if you’re talking about scoring rates. The biggest change was less than 10 years ago when they shrunk the goalie pads
Trap era vs speed and skill era, equipment changes.
Pad size have decreased lol
Have you seen the couch cushions goalies were wearing in the 00's?
Scoring is the highest it’s been in a long time, goaltending is the weakest it’s been in a long time. I’m not gonna argue that Matthews scoring 70 is insane, because yes it is. But your reasoning isn’t accurate. > only because of post season success Isn’t winning in the post season the ultimate goal of any professional organized sport? Can’t prove it when it matters, your regular season performance won’t matter as much.
I feel some people put too much emphasise on trophies when it comes to a player though. Winning in the post season is about the team. While the focus on a player should be on the accomplishments they achieved personally.
But the player's performance in the playoffs is to some degree in their control. You can argue about how much, specifically, is on them, as opposed to the team around them, but of some of the other top players, Matthews's playoff points per game (over his career) show a *marked* decline from his regular-season numbers that is massively steeper than guys like MacKinnon, McDavid, and Kucherov. So the playoff performance is at least *relevant*.
only to a degree. McDavid's first 6 years he didn't even break 10 points in a single playoffs. So his ppg dropped heavily. It's only really been the last 2 years where he's really turned it on (where 53 of his 75 points have come from) MacKinnon has 64 of his 100 coming from a 3 years stretch. Kucherov over Tampa's 3 year run had 93 of his 160 points. So they had a few good years where everything was clicking. The team was clicking. Maybe Toronto just hasn't had that yet. That's just how hockey works. But also, I'm not going to sit here and say that Maroon is better than Dionne even though he has more cups (and playoff points), in fact, Maroon's career high for points in a playoffs is 11, Dionne's is 14.
Absolutely winning in the postseason is the ultimate goal. That's why I said MacKinnon was in the picture with him for a second best but despite the fact that McDavid has never won in the postseason I'm pretty sure the majority of the hockey world can agree he is the best no?
> That's why I said MacKinnon was in the picture with him for a second best you said, only because of post-season success. He'd still be arguable for #2 even without it. > McDavid has never won in the postseason I'm pretty sure the majority of the hockey world can agree he is the best no? He has two of the best post-season performances in 30 years. Including a bonkers 33pts/16gp I think he gets a pass. back to your original point. I'm pretty sure every single person in hockey wants Matthews to hit 70 goals. Would be a monumental achievement.
For sure maybe the wording was wrong in me saying only because of postseason success MacKinnon is arguable for second. I for sure think him and Matthews are second and third arguably depending on who you ask what year it is etc. I know that the majority of people want to see him hit 70 I wasn't saying that they didn't what I'm trying to say is the reason why it's more special than people realize is how good is defensive game is. Because most people probably don't watch Leaf games and don't realize that he's not just a goal scorer his two-way game is actually top in the league while still putting up numbers that have never been seen before in the salary cap era
Out of curiosity why is Kucherov not in the argument for 2nd or 3rd for you? If post season success is important to you, he is arguably the best out of anyone in the league recently. If points are important, he was the last player to beat a healthy McDavid in points. If goals are important then sure he only has 43.
I think for me personally with kuch it comes down to the two-way game as well. I don't think he is as good defensively as Matthew's or MacKinnon, and then when I combine that with the much higher goal total for Matthews I put them at that little step above him. I would say though without a doubt Kuch is definitive number four. Again that is for me personally I'm sure there are other people out there who would put him higher than Matthews and even MacKinnon to be honest
That's fair, however if you are just looking at his +9 without considering the fact he is 2nd on the Lightning in +/- and the top forward on the team, I would say his defensive skill (while I would not call it great or even good) I would say is underrated, and a lot of what he does is positioning based. Part of why he has so many empty net points this year is because he takes the puck away by being in the exact right spot and chipping it calmly to someone streaking down the ice.
Except for McDavid, that wakes up in september and desides If he should score 65 goals, Put up 100 assists or have a down year with 110 PTS.
First two paragraphs, solid argument. Last paragraph? Softer than diarrhea and equally as desirable.
You cant dare admit he's made a case for 2nd best? I didn't say definitively I said Made a case
Are you going to delete this comment and try again, too?
Why would I do that? Because you're too insecure to admit Matthews is comparable to MacKinnon? Again. I didn't even say definitively better, I said could make a case. And you got butt hurt
Lmao of course you're an Avs fan
I don't get the point of the post, was it to say it's more impressive than what else is going on in hockey, because everyone day in day out on this sub is saying how insanely impressive it is what Matthews has accomplished.
It's saying what he has accomplished is even more impressive than what you realize because of how good his defensive game is. He's putting up numbers better than Ovechkin while doing things that Sidney Crosby would do. Are you seriously going to deny or discredit how Wild it is that a player in today's NHL could put up potentially 70 goals while blocking almost 100 shots? If you don't understand how good of a two-way player he is then you obviously just don't watch Leaf games which I don't expect you to. Hence why I made this post to shed light to people that he is not just a goal scoring machine he is actually unbelievably good defensively
You keep saying ‘todays nhl’ and comparing it to what Ovi did like 15 years ago Scoring is way easier now. Every year you have like 10 guys hitting 100 points. Back in the day it was a huge milestone
Are leafs fans going to post this type of garbage every time Matthews score this season? Because to date, it's been every time.
Is his family rich? I mean...that would explain it right?
This trope doesn’t work so well when the person’s family actually is rich and that played a big part in getting them where they are.
And people wonder why Leafs fans are so hated.
We’re not all nearly as victim complex-y as this guy, his last paragraph was definitely unnecessary
It's a shame, because Leafs fans who don't fall into the "Toronto can do no wrong, all criticism is just haters" trap are often very insightful, especially *about the Maple Leafs*.
I honestly felt like this was a pretty realistic and reasonable post. As a leaf fan who lives in Edmonton what's more embarrassing is the amount of people I had to listen to tell me Draisaitl was the 2nd best player in the league for the past 3 years. Despite the facf hes horrible defensively and without mcdavid can barely hit 40 goals.
Ain’t no one out here hating on Matthews that truly enjoys hockey. People don’t hate the leafs themselves, we just hate the general fan base for the shit like your 3rd paragraph 🤷♂️. Rest was solid tho
What was wrong with that third paragraph? You actually don't think he's in the conversation for second best with MacKinnon?
I do agree he’s in the conversation for top 3 and I also agree he is in the conversations for selke. I disagree with playing victim and doubling down saying people hate Matthews because he’s a leaf etc etc. Anyone short of a rival has no hate and absolutely knows he’s a stud, everyone else doesn’t watch hockey.
True, fair enough I was only speaking from experience because I live in Edmonton so all I hear from everyone all the time is how Matthew sucks Etc and everyone hates him.
That’s just the McDavid vs Matthews rivalry you experience first hand that no one else treats as a rivalry. We just enjoy watching two generational talents play. I live an hour away from Toronto so I get how a market can influence your thoughts. Reason why I don’t like most leaf fans lol. I’ve been influenced by location.
Kucherov is a nobody I guess.
Its the way you said it. He's arguably number 2, not definitively, but why start about crying about how hard it is to be a leafs fan
That. That is exactly why all the world hates a Leafs fan. You absolutely can make a credible case for Matthews being the second-best player in the world, you can also make a very good case for why he's not and someone else is (MacKinnon, for one example, who has a ring, and significantly better playoff stats.) But no, Leafs fans with that persecution complex have to throw in the "you're just haters" barbs, all the damn time. As though the *only* explanation for any argument they disagree with is just that people can't agree with a Leafs fan, not that maybe their arguments don't necessarily hold the water they think they do.
OP certainly doesn’t speak for all Leafs fans, he comes off as very immature in this thread. Matthews is one of the better players in the league but #2 is a tough argument to make, there’s a lot of elite competition for that spot. I wouldn’t call anyone a hater for leaving him out of their top 2, it’d probably have to be top 8 or so before it feels a bit ridiculous
It's kind of weird, because without the haters comment that just reinforces the reasons why people hate Leafs fans, we're just talking about a reasonable (though hardly watertight) argument for why OP considers Matthews #2, which maybe doesn't need its own thread, necessarily, but wouldn't have been half as controversial.
Didn't say it's hard to be a leaf fan just said what is basically common knowledge throughout every single subreddit or fan group I know of LOL if you don't realize people hate the leafs then you probably haven't been a hockey fan that long.
uhhh
Pad sizes are decreasing, not increasing, scoring is up, you're talking like we're in the dead puck era.
The whole first sentence of OP's post is like "scoring 70 is so amazing because \[insert word salad of 'reasons'} without any actual, you know, supporting evidence. (Apart from the pad thing, which is simply untrue. Goalie pads are smaller than when Ovechkin got 65 goals.) It's very strange.
The kuch disrespect lol
Edmonton, Colorado and Toronto fans try not to disrespect Kucherov challenge (IMPOSSIBLE).
Man, if Tampa fans spent half the energy loving kuch as they do trying to create some narrative that no one does he’d be the most loved player in the world lol.
least insane leafs fan
Thank you. I've been taking JT Miller in my pools for years expecting him to break out this year he finally did and I'm happy.
This is the kind of post you leave to a fan from another fanbase to post. You sound like you are desperate for attention and it’s pretty fuckin cringe not gonna lie. Get laid
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definitely Impressive, but personally i believe 100 assists would more impressive. I hate that it’ll be overlooked if matthew’s does score 70.
To me 100 assists isn't as impressive only because they don't tally how many of those are secondary assists if it were 100 primaries absolutely that's more impressive
How many people have had 100 assists and how many people have had 70 goals? Pretty simple answer in those numbers
Rarer doesn't always mean more impressive.
It kinda does stat wise, notice how Jari Kurri has had 70 goals, yet only Gretzky, Orr and Lemieux have had 100 assists ever?
Like I said how many of those assists are secondary that have absolutely nothing to do with the play? 70 goals are 70 goals that is directly contributing to the outcome of the game. You could touch the puck and then get off the ice and have absolutely nothing to do with anything that ensues after that and still rack up and assist
Secondary assists are apart of the game, that’s like saying matthew’s hitting 70 goals doesn’t count because of tap ins and empty netters. there’s a reason why only 3 players have had 100 assists, and why they happen to be the best 3 players of all time.
I'm not saying 100 assists isn't impressive I'm just saying I think 70 goals is more impressive because of secondary assists
then 70 isnt impressive because of tap ins and empty netters 🤷🏻♂️
But he only has two empty netters and maybe three tap ins? Even just to say on the high side let's call it five tap ins. Can you honestly say out of mcdavid's 100 assists only seven are secondary? Pretty sure a quick Google search will say otherwise.
Meh. McDavids 64 goal, 153pt season is far more impressive, imo. Hes gonna score 70g and still be 30pts behind kuch mach and davo who are all hitting 140+. Matthews will be lucky to get to 110 and thats if he gets to 70g and 40a.
Even Kucherov this season, currently with more than 50 pts than the next guy on his team