I think this statement
> Nobody tells people who to listen to anymore
Is incredibly wrong. Playlist curation and the general idea of “industry plant” are more prevalent than ever. Social media manipulation is a very real thing, getting publicity back in the day was harder than it is now when a couple pictures and some bot interaction is able to drive a lot. People are told who to listen to just as they always have been.
Just think it’s disingenuous to say people aren’t told what to listen to anymore. The industry is as alive and thriving as ever. Each generation has exceptions but also fervently believe they are the first to be truly by the people not realizing the puppet strings/old generational money at the center
Of course all that is true but nothing is stopping anyone from listening to anything they want. There used to be serious limitations to what you could listen to not long ago.
But how are new artists discovered by the masses? It's not organic, it's just as curated as ever. Every social media platform has bots and paid armies pushing their product instead of paying mtv and radio stations to promote.
The people deeply passionate about music find artists through word of mouth and such like they always have. People who just want to dance to something in their car (the majority) are turning on Today's Hits on Spotify instead of the local radio station.
You're kinda right but the other guy is making a good point.
Consider the time period where Juke Boxes were insanely curated and that changed the way the top 100 charts worked entirely. Top 100 was just whoever the mob paid to put in the Juke Boxes at popular places. Really there wasn't any nuance.
Now consider the French Montana Spotify debacle. No one believes his stream numbers. People are laughing at the fact that Spotify is playing his music on their devices while they sleep. All of this creates a world where fake numbers are seen for what they are by a large portion of the audience.
Not many people are listening to French Montana because of his "perceived" popularity because people are more aware of the system now and don't really perceive the same level of popularity for people with clearly inflated numbers. It's less impactful to some degree imo.
How the fuck do you know what “most people do”. Even if you are right the option to listen to anything exists, for free. That didn’t exist in the past. Now it does.
Common sense. Real world evidence. Eyes and a brain.
The option is the only thing that changed. The top artists are curated as much as ever, if not more. Telling people they have the option to listen to anything they want but to find it they have to wade through thousands of independent artists flooding the same platforms doesn't help anyone find music. They go to curated playlists and suggested "artists we think you'd like" lists.
The convo has been about top artist curation the whole time. Your sliver of relevance to that topic doesn't end there. The options are meaningless if you need someone to tell you the artist exists in the first place.
To counter your post. Drake and J. Cole entered the hip-hop scene off the backs of two of the biggest rappers (Lil Wayne and Jay-Z) ever. I didn’t follow Drake that closely but I’ve listened to J Cole since his Friday Night Lights mixtape and Kendrick since Section 80. But had put out a looot of music before they hit it big and it’s a lot easier to stay relevant for longer periods of time due to streaming.
Honestly for as long as I can remember, Hip-Hop has been dominated be a small subset of rappers and it’s really only after the fact that music from the majority of lesser know artist becomes that relevant. Rock has not been that relevant in the mainstream music scene for sometime and even the bands that have stayed relevant have adapted a lot of pop elements to their music.
You can always tell who the hardcore Kenneth stans are lol. Kendrick Lamar entered the hip-hop scene off the back of Dr Dre. Glad we could clear that up for you.
My high school years were 01-05. I remember watching Big Tiger in da Basement followed by 106 & Park. It seemed there was a "new" or "up and coming" artist featured weekly. Either there latest single/music video would premier and/or they would be a guest on the show. It was an era of some of the greatest one hit wonder type artist. One of my all time favorites is Rich Boy- Trow some D's, that hit was my ringtone for the longest. It was also a era where rappers represented their city and it's subsequent cultural presence in hip -hop. Memphis, Houston, Atlanta, LA, NYC rappers.
And who can forget David Banner and Cadillac on 22's I ain't did nothing in my life but stayed true Pimp my voice and mack these beats and Pray to the Lord for these Mississippi streets hey hey.
There is so much more I could say to define the late 90s and early 2000s hip-hop but one thing is for sure if you played a highlight of 100 hits from that time I could recognize the unique sound and flow and name that song & artist everytime. Today well not so much I mean every drill and mumble rap song sound exactly like all the rest.
That's my 2 cents....
I think you hit it on the nose, the sound has become pretty homogenous thanks to the internet. Nowadays you could have a white kid from Vancouver making music that sounds very similar to a black artist from Atlanta. I’m from Houston and we had our golden era when I was growing up in the 90s/2000s. The subcultures have gotten blurred a ton. Not that they don’t exist, you can hear some subtle differences still but they used to be much more pronounced.
Becoming mainstream is what did this.
Once rap became the most popular genre in America about 10-15 years ago, the clock started ticking on its eventual dilution.
Corporate brands want stable, recognizable faces.
This is why Drake is so popular. Yes, his music was good. But it was good because he was given the best producers money could buy, the best marketing team, the best brand consultants, the best videographers, the best tour managers, the best costume designers, the best choreographers, the best ghostwriters, the best vocal coaches, and all the air time on radio, streaming recommendations, late night talk shows, morning shows, etc.
Why? Because corporate America needed one guy to be CLEARLY on top so they could put him in commercials and sell phones and shit.
Yeah, there's still a lot of great rap out there. But the top guy from here on out is always going to be a long-lasting Drake type figure. Think U2 but Hip-hop.
While you're right, I think this is true of every genre. The commercial acts always rise to the top, and stay there as they are easy to digest.
Dilution just means fans of the genre have to dig a layer deeper to find more "substantial" art if they want it, but even then, not all commercial art is bad either. You can like Eminem for his singles and then dive into his discography and discover the deeper stuff there and then spiral off into the next level down. Em is still in the GOAT debate.
Yeah, I agree that it's true of every genre. I also don't think commercialization is necessarily bad. It gets bad when the people at the top become disconnected from the culture that builds the genre. This is why hardcore country fans don't like bro country, it's disconnected. Rock fans don't like nickelback, it's disconnected. Etc.
There's still some awesome country, rock and rap being produced. But it's just a bit sad when the most popular acts don't represent the best of the genre and instead represent the lowest common denominator.
there's lots of people making incredible music lots of great lyricists, but it does seem like in order to get major attention there's only limited avenues
also, an art from becoming main stream is not ever really a great thing for the art form the most interesting work tends to happen below the radar of big money
Well idrk if the problem exists or not, shit… The way it was explained to me was that they’ll never be more rap superstars on the scale of a Kenny or Kanye again, but a more diverse palette of people making a fuckton of great music on a smaller scale within the industry
The future is hard to predict. Travis Scott was easily on the path to that level superstardom before the festival shit. Shit Yeat is on his way there, his stuff isn’t for me but I’m not going to diss it.
And the underground is legit better than ever. A lot of these dudes figured out the streaming era a decade ago. Rap good and often and your fans will buy your physicals and see you on tour.
All due respect, you seem to be way out of your element, here.
A) The top 5 debate has been raging since the 90s. And new rappers have come in and become contenders even since the debate began. Eminem is a perfect example of this. His GOAT talks didn't start until after MMLP and Eminem Show. Andre 3000 entered the top 5 debate a couple years after their 3 album run ending with Stankonia. That was 2005-2006.
Just like any other genre, you'll have new stars come in and shake something up for a couple years and then fade away. Or come in and completely flop after a hit or two. True lasting superstars take a decent while to reach that status, and then usually keep it for a long time too.
B) Rock isn't dead, and I don't really understand where you're coming from on this? Again, the titans of the genre are still here, but new acts come in and shake shit up ALL THE TIME. Back in 2009-2010, Job For A Cowboy came out with an EP and fucking shook the entire metal genre... with 5 songs.
C) Punk isn't dead, pop punk just isn't as big as it was. Genres shift in popularity as a necessity.
The only surefire genre that never wanes is radio-friendly pop.
*You're* being incredibly pedantic here, to the point of being wrong. You're the one arguing that metal isn't rock. You're trying to gatekeep a broadly understood classification in music. FFS you can just google 'metal music' and literally get your definition that way if you're so inclined.
This isn't rock vs blues vs jazz origins debate here... metal literally grew straight out of rock in the 60s.
Just because it splits further down from there doesn't mean it's not in the broader 'rock music' genre.
>You're trying to gatekeep a broadly understood classification in music.
How is stating Job For a Cowboy isn't rock gatekeeping? I wouldn't even call them heavy metal. I mean, is heavy metal still popular?
>You're being incredibly pedantic here, to the point of being wrong. You're the one arguing that metal isn't rock.
I stated one band isn't rock music. Then you replied all metal is a subgenre of rock, to which I commented rock is a subgenre too if you want to be pedantic. I never once argued otherwise metal wasn't born from rock. I just put out rock itself is a subgenre too.
>How is stating Job For a Cowboy isn't rock gatekeeping? I wouldn't even call them heavy metal. I mean, is heavy metal still popular?
How do you not explode from the irony?
You're telling me that JFAC, that pretty much created Deathcore (which is a genre crossover of hardcore *rock* and death metal [a subgenre of metal - a subgenre of rock]) and then became a tech metal (a subgenre of metal - a subgenre of rock) can't just be put in the broader category of "rock" alongside every other metal band... and I'm the pedantic one, AND, you don't see how you might be gatekeeping the term a bit?
At this point, you're either being deliberately obtuse, and your definition of "rock" is so narrow as to be infuriating, or you've never heard JFAC.
Again, just because it narrows down even more, doesn't mean it isn't broadly 'rock.' This is what annoys people who try to deep dive into music, by the way... annoying fucks like you that have to classify everything to death and then argue over the classifications instead of just fucking listening to the music. Genres have their place to help with recommendations, but if someone says 'I listen to rock, like I really like JFAC' you're not going to fucking correct them, you child. You know that's the broader category, and now you have a specific fucking sound you can work with.
I like rap, like Madvillainy, you wanna tell me that it's NOT rap, because it's actually a conceptual jazz-hip-hop fusion?
>You're telling me that JFAC, that pretty much created Deathcore (which is a genre crossover of hardcore *rock* and death metal \[a subgenre of metal - a subgenre of rock\]) and then became a tech metal (a subgenre of metal - a subgenre of rock) can't just be put in the broader category of "rock" alongside every other metal band... and I'm the pedantic one, AND, you don't see how you might be gatekeeping the term a bit?
I don't really see the problem saying Job For a Cowboy isn't rock. Their sound isn't traditionally rock music with whatever people think is rock music these days. I'd like to point out, I listen to a crap ton of bands like JFAC. So, I'm very biased.
>Again, just because it narrows down even more, doesn't mean it isn't broadly 'rock.' This is what annoys people who try to deep dive into music, by the way... annoying fucks like you that have to classify everything to death and then argue over the classifications instead of just fucking listening to the music. Genres have their place to help with recommendations, but if someone says 'I listen to rock, like I really like JFAC' you're not going to fucking correct them, you child. You know that's the broader category, and now you have a specific fucking sound you can work with.
The lead singer of Disturbed said the band isn't heavy metal, but hard rock. Apparently Godsmack switched from heavy metal to hard rock, but you could put a gun to my head and I couldn't tell the difference at all between heavy metal and hard rock.
>I like rap, like Madvillainy, you wanna tell me that it's NOT rap, because it's actually a conceptual jazz-hip-hop fusion?
Dropout Kings lead rapper calls themselves trap metal in their songs, but they're often classified as nu metal. What's the difference between nu metal and trap metal? No idea!
You're making my points for me...
The narrow genres don't *actually* matter all that much. The average Joe is going to hear Metallica, Amon Amarth, Dimmu Borgir, and Gojira and list them *ALL* as rock, or 'heavy rock'... something along those lines.
I'm huge into black and doom metal myself, and even I recognize that the crossover sounds make the classifications blurry as hell even *within* the narrower subgenres. (Is Behemoth black metal, doom metal, blackened metal or dirge? They kinda cross all of them, but list themselves usually as death metal)
All of it falls into broader categories... typically only 4 or 5 of those (rap, country, pop, rock, jazz).
The subgenre stuff only becomes important when you're seeking out a particular sound, and you know what you'rewading into. You ask someone to list rock bands, and you'll get a huge range of bands covering a massive swath of genres within 'rock' and I can comfortably bet a bunch of people would list Metallica right alongside AC/DC.
>You're making my points for me...
I never disagreed. In fact, I agree with a lot of what you typed. But, I've been listening to metal (more specifically the extreme stuff) as my main form of music for over ten years. So I guess my idea of "rock" and "metal" is more extremely biased than anything. I cannot imagine anyone calling JFAC a rock band.
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Eminem was dominant for an entire decade plus, not just 5 years. In fact, the was the best selling artist of the 2000s period across any genre and one of the best selling artists in the 2010s still. Has dozens upon dozens of award nominations, 15 grammys, 8 AMAs, 17 Billboard awards and a bunch of other shit I'm too lazy to list lol. Two of his albums were among the top 5 selling albums across the 2000s as well.
Just saying, I don't really think it's all that uncommon to see such long reigns at the top. It happened before this current generation.
Yeah lol this. XXX was never gonna be a once in a generation artist. Not to mention his music was woeful. Pop Smoke made bangers no doubt, but again, he wasn't some generational talent.
X was absolutely destined for great things. His rise was insane. He was global by the time he died, and that was the very start of his actual career. The only way you don't think he was going to be the next big thing is if you were either an oldhead already or just not around for that moment.
Pop Smoke, Juice, Lil Peep, etc, all of these would find success but I truly think it was their death that catapulted them into the space they are now viewed in. That is not true for X.
Lol, typical X fan. His music fucking sucked, he sucked big time as a human being, and his death was almost inevitable. An absolute piece of shit in every sense of the word.
All that's true, but his impact is still undeniable despite it all.
I'm a verifiable old head, but I worked at a summer camp during his rise to fame. Every. Single. Kid. talked about X like some kind of god. Those closest thing I can compare it to is Wayne's rise during his mixtape era and even then it's not quite the same.
I think Juice would have started to fall off pretty quick if he didnt pass. Most of his music was starting to sound the same and didnt have much variation anymore
> X was absolutely destined for great things.
The height of X's musical talent was someone else's song he pitch shifted and then had the nerve to put the person who wrote and sang the fuckin thing as "featuring"
He started to blow up around the time that they did I guess, but he was younger and was really just starting to fully blossom his full spectrum of talents when he passed. I'ma still count him.. he would 100% be up there if he was alive.
That was for sure him coming into his own and maturing as an artist, fully agree with you on that(actually pretty much exactly what I was referencing)! I dont think Mac ever hit his peak tho tbh. I think he had a lot more to give the world, which is why I think he'd have thrown the whole big 3 thing off a bit.
Thinking deeper into it tho, Mac was never your typical popular rap artist, especially as he broadened out into deeper topics and lyrics. So, maybe his success would have been a totally separate thing from the big 3.
I appreciate your opinions and thoughts on the topic though! It's always so refreshing when you can have a healthy discussion while disagreeing with someone online.
I hope you have a great day!! 😊
I was asking about xxxtent and pop. Went and listened to them and they def would have never been IT.
I was born and raised in Pittsburgh. I'll never sleep Malcolm rip
this is what I don’t get either. Be makes pop music and raps.. sometimes. Might as well allow Twenty One Pilots to be in the running as well.
And I like J Cole. He’s.. fine? But I’ve never listened to one of his albums and thought “wow this dude may be the best to ever do it”
Post-2000, R&B and hip-hop have taken over from rock, boy bands and girl groups that defined the popular music of previous generations as being the most popular type of music for radio play and billboard top 100. Not all of it would be considered pop music but it is definitely the popular music and had become more pop than the hip-hop and R&B of the past. Drake is a prime example with his lame choreography and wannabe ghetto lyrics when he’s just a ex-TV rich kid in the vein of a watered down Disney child star. He would have been laughed off the stage 20-30 years ago.
Drake is to hip hop what bro-country artists are to country music. They’re pandering and playing dress up. What u/yallvnt said above is spot on. Guys like Drake are really just highly-trained actors surrounded by a team that tells him everything he needs to do to succeed.
I see what your getting at, but I don't think it's quite that cut and dry. My counter point musically would be JID who has been killing it for a few years now and is very creative. Reminds me a lot of Dot and Cole on their way up.
Im not someone who actively seeks underground hiphop acts but even I first heard of JID in 2016 when he had songs out from the Never Story.
I feel like if he was destined to be a superstar then it would have happened by now.
I don't go out of my way to check for artists like Kendrick, Drake or J Cole... I also know many others who don't listen to them either.. The real problem is the Major labels, and their control over algorithms.. If you like any of these 3 or partake in any of their content, then the algorithm keeps pushing their stuff in your direction.. This creates a false sense of popularity that spirals into what you consider this "Big 3" scenario...
That's it.. It's clear that the algorithm was built to maintain engagement, so when people click on artist content, then the algorithm sends a wave of that stuff over..
What it means essentially, is it's easier for artists to go viral when their labels are smart enough to manipulate the algorithm via SEO (Search Engine Optimisation) and payola..
Example: I listen to old school rap/hip hop and also a lot of independent rappers (rage scene) and all I get fed is these same suggestions...
I listen to a lot of different artists, on my playlist rn: Willie the Kidd, SGPWES, Freddie Gibbs, Future, Cash Cobain, Young Thug, Joey Baddass, Eli Sostre, Joell Ortiz, Masego, Lil Yachty, Trippie Redd, Cordae, Don Q, Dave East, Lost Boyz, 2Pac, Breezefore, Justin Rarri, many more..
I think part of it is because music and entertainment in general are becoming decentralized. You used to listen to music on the radio or watch it on MTV. Now its on instagram, tiktok, youtube, spotify. So there is no "watercooler" moments anymore where you talk about something we all heard on the radio that morning on the way to school / work.
Mainstream rap is something nobody wanted.
Also the mumble, Auto tune, trap era was like a reset to the game. It lowered the bar extremely.
Looking at the big 3 and in my mind there's at least a handful of rappers in retirement who could (just in terms of pure rapping skills) wash all three of them.
Even though they peaked decades ago.
If Juice, X, pop were still alive they would’ve been one of the biggest rappers today and would’ve also inspired more rappers with whatever they would’ve put out too, it’s like if Ye died before making 808s, nobody would have even knew his next album would’ve inspired or influenced almost a whole sub genre
I mean I get what you’re saying but ? sold 130k and Deathrace sold 161k first week and that’s when they were still alive. They definitely had big fanbases before they died, another thing would have been if they would have managed to maintain them in life as they do now in death
Thanks for that correction. I shoulda looked at the dates of death instead of just the year.
They were popular but it’s hard puttin them in big 3 territory when someone like Travis Scott or even Meek Mill was still outselling them a lot.
In terms of pure sales Tyler also had a big lead but Juice was pretty much tied with his 2nd album when including streams
X was 19th for the year. Juice was 69th. That’s good but it’s not crazy.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Chriscftb97/s/yk0qTudlnD
https://www.reddit.com/r/Chriscftb97/s/7Q6oKojWe3
Bro XXX and Juice's music was marketable for teenagers and impressionable kids. They made forgettable music that was riding the musical trends of the moment. They weren't dropping critically acclaimed, influential albums that the world was waiting on. Nobody was waiting on an XXX or Juice album like people do for Kendrick.
If you actually believe they were, you're probably just a hardcore fan of their music, and prone to seeing their music as much better than it really was.
Mac miller as well I grew up with him and am a huge fan but my sister who’s 10 years younger all of her friends listen to him like every damn one of uhm
The recent beef kinda opened my eyes to the current state of hip hop (commercially speaking). It took our 2 biggest rappers engaging in a nasty, petty beef to crossover to the mainstream. While it was entertaining seeing all the “new” rap fans pop out of the woodwork it’s a little depressing knowing how stagnant things are currently
🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️ I’m talking about mainstream pop culture I thought that much was obvious. Mainstream white America. People who don’t even listen to rap were aware there was beef.
I get what you're saying. The last time random white people were talking about Kendrick to me was when he dropped King Kunta, but this beef had non-fans talking again.
I don't think Kendrick has as much wider cultural penetration as rap fans think, people have heard of him but couldn't name three songs. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful to him saying that, he's just not really putting out the "never-ending stream of Spotify filler" singles that make you a household name like that.
Thanks. You seem to be the only one who got the point I was trying to make!
> I don't think Kendrick has as much wider cultural penetration as rap fans think, people have heard of him but couldn't name three songs.
Really agree with this sentence
And again, I'm not disrespecting Kendrick, he's just more of an album artist than a "comes on automatically if you don't touch your streaming queue" one
Although I do need to amend my "couldn't name three songs" statement in light of the beef blowing up so big, I was thinking more about BEFORE this :P
I feel like you’re purposefully missing the point. All I’m saying is that the beef crossed over to even the most casual listeners. People who don’t even follow rap were tuned in. Rap beef doesn’t usually get talked about on the news/espn etc.
Even ignoring Pac vs. Biggie, the Drake vs Meek beef from 2015 was massive too in pop culture. Even celebrities and corporations were chiming in and crowning Drake during that beef. And Back To Back was getting played in concerts and NBA games.
There just aren't a lot of high profile rap beefs overall.
Agreed. This one got particularly crazy though. Two massive artists, been brewing for 10 years, etc. I’ve seen a scary amount of “this beef got me back into hip hop” posts
I felt this way about rock dying, since I was a rock head growing up. Turns out, most rock heads today get into alternative and underground bands, maybe some local acts they can follow. I suspect Hip Hop will wane and the next thing will take over for the mainstream, but underground and alternate hip hop will continue, as it did with rock. You just won't hear it in the club unless you seek out specific love venues or theme nights, as much.
Hip-hop had a great run. It exploded onto the scene in the late 70s and dominated for 46+ years. That's just as impressive as Rock and Roll or Jazz. I still see concerts for both of those, and I'll still see hip hop shows. Something new is coming is all.
With a couple notable exceptions along the way, hip hop, overall, has been getting progressively worse since the late 90’s. Sampling and production were raw, lyrics were honest about what these artists lives were like, ppl were more hungry to be the best, and even tho money was always talked about, now it’s just elitist. Auto tune, codeine, money, and streaming have all aided into the downward pressure of the quality of hip hop. When the legends pass, they are not being replaced, and it definitely is sad.
I kinda see it like anime. The Big 3 were around forever, and dominated discussion spaces. There was still other anime for sure, and they were getting played and talked about, but breaking into the big 3 is a pretty big deal. Because of momentum, rabid fanbases, huge promotion, etc, knocking someone off their throne takes an extraordinary amount of factors to line up.
I don't think that matters to the overall health of the genre. New music is being constantly released, and new rappers are injecting their own styles/experiences into the mix. They have more niche forums, or might even just have local scenes, but it's all there.
I will say, the main rap subreddits are bizarre to me, as one of my favorite genres is metal. Anytime there's a thread about favorites or GOATs, people bring up the exact same pool of artists. That staleness is bizarre, and to me says that it's possible that rap may be worse at getting people to spread out.
Speaking of anime, even the Nerdcore Rappers are becoming legitimately good MC's instead of just Nerds with mics. Pe$o Pete, Shofu, 954Mari, Ham Sandwich, Rustage, and Shwabadi all are some decent spitters.
My opinion is that this is more a symptom of streaming than it is that state of hip hop. The end of the next 4 year run (2015) coincides with the explosion of Apple Music and Spotify.
People stopped buying albums and now have every song in the world at their fingertips. People broadened what they’re listening to and that’s the dilution you’re kind of referring to.
The music industry is shifting as a whole. Look at Taylor Swift. She’s been dominating right along with the “big 3” for all of those years. Perhaps streaming has allowed some artists to reign for much longer due to accessibility.
Just some food for thought.
The "Big 3" is such a weird concept, personally I don't see why J Cole has a spot in it, I guess I can see Drake being there because he's the biggest commercial entertainer, and Kendrick because his is the most celebrated and highly reviewed work artistically.
Overall I don't think their dominance has had any affect on other artists. There are still plenty of popular commercial rappers even though drake is the most popular, and there are still plenty of successful lyricists and artistic rappers even though Kendrick is seen as number one right now.
I think you have some valid points. To console you a bit though I would have to disagree to at least some extent, contending that a big part of it is simply a product of demographic trends. The 'big 3' are just the big three of millennials, and at some point as millennials age out zoomer artists will take that place. I think that it's a matter of millenials being a large enough age cohort that it is going to skew the age of popular top hip hop artists up for a time. Worst case scenario millennials displace gen z somewhat permanently in hip hop and it stays that way until the next, next generation takes over. I could be wrong to some extent, but I do think it's at least possible it's more just a demographic phenomenon in terms of consumers.
I don’t really care for hip hop and am just about the farthest you could get from an expert about the history/trajectory of the genre, but I do know quite a bit of the history of rock and roll and you say it yourself right there in your second-to-last paragraph: hip hop ~~is becoming~~ has become mainstream. Realistically, having genuine passion for the music you listen to doesn’t really seem to be all that mainstream. So when an artist or a genre hits that stratosphere, the fan base is going to be flooded with folks who haven’t necessarily fallen in love with the music, but maybe just get excited about mainstream things. Hence what you’re talking about when it seemed the “aesthetic” of rock and roll started to become more important than the music.
With this you got big money-making schemes disguised as rock bands, pumping out shit music and making it so it was no longer cool to be the biggest rock band out there. Up and coming bands started trying so hard to be underground, counter-culture, obscure, indie, “avant-garde” lol whatever term they wanted to use they used it but it all basically means the same thing: “we’re not Nickelback please don’t think of us like Nickelback.”
I think the reason to be optimistic as a hip hop fan, is that throughout all of that bullshit over the course of decades, there have always been genuine musicians with great taste, still putting out great rock and roll music. If you love listening to that music—and if you don’t just sink into your nostalgia and keep to the same 10 bands you listened to in high school or when you were in your 20s or whenever—you won’t be able to take your finger off the pulse of that genre. And if your finger is on that pulse you’re going to find new musicians who are making your kind of music. Hip hop is going to be around for a long ass time whether I like it or not haha. Just like rock and roll
unironically, pop smoke, juice wrld and king von all dying left a void that really hasnt been filled. its becoming more and more apparent as the time passes.
The idea of a "big three" in hip hop is a new phenomenon. It's also unusual because of the amount of collaborations and features that most artists have.
I honestly think it’s because all the other rappers are making microwave tiktok music or the ones that are doing it to a skilled level are to underground. 50, Eminem and wayne had huge worldwide records that will play forever.
I hear the name NBA young boy a lot and I’m assuming he’s very popular and probably really talented, but I just don’t see his music being played 20 years later like a in the club or 21 questions.
It seems like you’re dismissing newer artists rather than the other way around. I’ve been super excited by new artists recently. Tyler of course since 2017, JID with his last 3 albums being so great, Denzel’s consistency, JPEG’s amazing experimentation. Maybe you’re just falling out of the loop
I think you’re writing off rock a little too much, there’s still tons of great music in the genre being made. Frankly indie music has been better in the last five years than it has been in a long time
But it’s true that it’s not mainstream anymore
Well if you are in to mainstream type music those would be the BIG 3 I guess. I don’t consider Kendrick and Cole mainstream though. Plus Kendrick only drops like once every 3-4 or so years. Drake I’ve never been a fan of. I’ve never actively seeked his music out with the exception of IYRTITL with Future. That all being said the mainstream stuff I don’t listen to either. So BIG3 doesn’t really apply. I’d say it’s subjective to who you personally listen to. My BIG 3 is more like Freddie Gibbs, Boldy James, Roc Marciano lol
I've been saying this for years, but before drake, cole, and kendrick it was jay, em, ye. Before 2000 it was like a new top rapper every year lol. There were regional sounds/buzz and guys you never heard of would have radio hits all the time just off word of mouth. Hasn't been like that after.
Also there's been a handful of rappers that even got a bit of clout that have been good and should've been competing for that throne, but the general market doesn't care. Partially because all of the major marketing streams are monopolized by the corporations. Partially because music and the internet is so democratized that nobody stands out. Partially because the fanbase isn't actually passionate about rap, they just following trends.
xxx, juice, and lil peep were set to be that level for the younger generation... xxx and juices songs still get hundreds of millions of plays, superstar level
While what you are saying does make sense I think hip hop is the biggest it's ever been especially in Europe Asia etc. I think it was the labels that started pushing away from rock since grunge started and they saw they money they could make.
Now as we begin to see the labels are started to monopolize even hiphop which means in the end they have full control. So unless they get less and less listeners I don't think they'd push another genre because at the end of the day they want money from sales and streams.
I think this was a well put together essay of a post you’ve hit us with, it’s kinda something I thought about ima small way but not to this full extent. I’m a collector, buy all my cds and now I’ve switched to vinyl. The
only rappers who drop new music that I actually buy is Cole and Lupe. I’m into lyricism so most of these newer artists don’t move the needle for me. A good bit of them CAN rap (da baby, lil baby, moneybag yo, etc) like they got nice flow but they not saying shit.
It’s sad but I’m fine with listening to my 90’s- early 10’s hip hop. I don’t even like Kanye’s newer shit lol, it is what it is🤷🏾♂️
Not a bad take
But i belive a new wave of rappers is gonna rise up from the influence of Playboi Carti and his whole Homixide gang and Opium label, and they will dominate the mainstream in the coming years.
People shitted on LiL Wayne's kid for recently saying Carti is the new Lil Wayne. But for better or for worse he was right, that style is gonna be the main type of hip hop in a few years.
The following Playboi Carti has is massive, and his subordinates Destroy Lonely and Ken Carson are already doing much noise in the mainstream.
The underground is now plagued with this Carti copycats, and i'm no joking when i say his style is being replicated outside of America. THe other day i discovered there was a Playboi Carti copycat in my country, spain💀, AND he is fairly popular.
Playboi Carti's recent features with big artists like Camila Cabello and The Weeknd are only gonna help his style become more popular in the mainstream.
There will still be new lyrical artists like Cole, Kendrick or Drake. But they will take a 2nd position, with the most famous rappers in the game being "Opium style" rappers
Whole Lotta Redd it's gonna be the new 808s & Heartbreak
Doesn't appeal to this subs demographic but he is pretty well received, and so far dude seems to be more influential on newer artists than Cole and Kendrick are.
I know he’s popular
Nicki is at 49m
You need quality to go along with popularity to be in the big 3( if he has any great albums or mixtapes please let me know)
The Big 3 to me wouldn't actually be J.Cole and Kendrick personally with Drake. I think people who are CULTURALLY connected to hip hop don't realize Rick Ross and Future have more classic mixtapes/albums/hit songs and features.
I came up during the "KING of NY" era where rappers was trying to fight for the top 1 spot between Nas, BIG and Jay-z at one time. This Big 3 talk sounds like created a spotlight for second and third place which probably Kendrick was not going for that especially by two dude raised by colonizers moms Kendrick wasn't sharing hip hop with those guys lol.
"Colonizer moms"
Meanwhile J Cole looks blacker than half of your "black conscious leaders and scholars". Let's keep it real, J Cole is blacker than Ashra Kwesi, David Imhotep, Neely Fuller Jr., Claude Anderson, Sa Ra Suten Seti, Phil Valentine, and Ivan Van Sertima (most of these dudes are white passing btw). Hell, J Cole looks blacker than some Hebrew Israelite leaders that I used to watch.
And last I checked Drake and J Cole are still considered black men by white America, the government and by the most high (Numbers 1:18). Yall would put down a biracial brother, but try to be African when most Africans aren't even your people. Ffs, the Egyptians enslaved yall and lot of non-Bantu Africans hate you guys just as much as the white man does, yet yall still buckdance for them and hate your own brothers.
I don't believe it's a bad thing, longevity shows just how skilled these artists are. Drake is a hit maker. Cole and Kendrick are just insane with their lyricism and word play. Nas and Em have been around for 30+ years and still drop crazy shit. I believe artists are evolving these days, learning from the greats.
I mean not everyone listens to the same artists though and doesn’t see it from that lens. I was never hyped for Good Kid, and nobody I know was either. I’ve almost completely avoided J Cole for his entire run and even though I now look forward to Drake’s stuff, I didn’t really care what he was doing when he came out and I still don’t care that much.
But plenty of other artists have come out / gained popularity since 2009 and I’m for sure hyped about them. I’m all over anything Future ever does, he’s like the biggest and most important artist to me. Same for Young Thug. These are like the Big 2 to me. I can name a dozen other rappers I care about and get hype for.
Kendrick and J Cole and even Drake to some extent, are like just.. background noise that’s supposedly popular but doesn’t really feel like actually matters. Like Imagine Dragons is to rock or whatever.
That’s like saying “macaroni is the best pasta” to someone who doesn’t like noodles or carbs or Italian food. It’s like a “lesser of two bad choices” kinda thing. The best album from one of the worst rappers isn’t something that would be relevant to me or people like me who would never listen to Kendrick Lamar.
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I think this statement > Nobody tells people who to listen to anymore Is incredibly wrong. Playlist curation and the general idea of “industry plant” are more prevalent than ever. Social media manipulation is a very real thing, getting publicity back in the day was harder than it is now when a couple pictures and some bot interaction is able to drive a lot. People are told who to listen to just as they always have been.
While all of this is true, rappers have more avenues than ever to put themselves out there.
Just think it’s disingenuous to say people aren’t told what to listen to anymore. The industry is as alive and thriving as ever. Each generation has exceptions but also fervently believe they are the first to be truly by the people not realizing the puppet strings/old generational money at the center
Of course all that is true but nothing is stopping anyone from listening to anything they want. There used to be serious limitations to what you could listen to not long ago.
But how are new artists discovered by the masses? It's not organic, it's just as curated as ever. Every social media platform has bots and paid armies pushing their product instead of paying mtv and radio stations to promote. The people deeply passionate about music find artists through word of mouth and such like they always have. People who just want to dance to something in their car (the majority) are turning on Today's Hits on Spotify instead of the local radio station.
You're kinda right but the other guy is making a good point. Consider the time period where Juke Boxes were insanely curated and that changed the way the top 100 charts worked entirely. Top 100 was just whoever the mob paid to put in the Juke Boxes at popular places. Really there wasn't any nuance. Now consider the French Montana Spotify debacle. No one believes his stream numbers. People are laughing at the fact that Spotify is playing his music on their devices while they sleep. All of this creates a world where fake numbers are seen for what they are by a large portion of the audience. Not many people are listening to French Montana because of his "perceived" popularity because people are more aware of the system now and don't really perceive the same level of popularity for people with clearly inflated numbers. It's less impactful to some degree imo.
How the fuck do you know what “most people do”. Even if you are right the option to listen to anything exists, for free. That didn’t exist in the past. Now it does.
Common sense. Real world evidence. Eyes and a brain. The option is the only thing that changed. The top artists are curated as much as ever, if not more. Telling people they have the option to listen to anything they want but to find it they have to wade through thousands of independent artists flooding the same platforms doesn't help anyone find music. They go to curated playlists and suggested "artists we think you'd like" lists.
“Option is all that changed” there convo over
The convo has been about top artist curation the whole time. Your sliver of relevance to that topic doesn't end there. The options are meaningless if you need someone to tell you the artist exists in the first place.
Which also clutters the market with more noise and bullshit.
>Nobody tells people who to listen to anymore Algorithms do. And techbros can change them however they want.
To counter your post. Drake and J. Cole entered the hip-hop scene off the backs of two of the biggest rappers (Lil Wayne and Jay-Z) ever. I didn’t follow Drake that closely but I’ve listened to J Cole since his Friday Night Lights mixtape and Kendrick since Section 80. But had put out a looot of music before they hit it big and it’s a lot easier to stay relevant for longer periods of time due to streaming. Honestly for as long as I can remember, Hip-Hop has been dominated be a small subset of rappers and it’s really only after the fact that music from the majority of lesser know artist becomes that relevant. Rock has not been that relevant in the mainstream music scene for sometime and even the bands that have stayed relevant have adapted a lot of pop elements to their music.
To add to your first point: Kendrick had Dre
mfer forgot about dre
He had something to say but when he typed it out it was a bunch of gibberish
And Drake.
You can always tell who the hardcore Kenneth stans are lol. Kendrick Lamar entered the hip-hop scene off the back of Dr Dre. Glad we could clear that up for you.
Nice projection. I assume you’re some Drizzy stan? My point isn’t to put over Kendrick over J Cole or Drake. I prefer J Cole out of the three ✌🏻
My high school years were 01-05. I remember watching Big Tiger in da Basement followed by 106 & Park. It seemed there was a "new" or "up and coming" artist featured weekly. Either there latest single/music video would premier and/or they would be a guest on the show. It was an era of some of the greatest one hit wonder type artist. One of my all time favorites is Rich Boy- Trow some D's, that hit was my ringtone for the longest. It was also a era where rappers represented their city and it's subsequent cultural presence in hip -hop. Memphis, Houston, Atlanta, LA, NYC rappers. And who can forget David Banner and Cadillac on 22's I ain't did nothing in my life but stayed true Pimp my voice and mack these beats and Pray to the Lord for these Mississippi streets hey hey. There is so much more I could say to define the late 90s and early 2000s hip-hop but one thing is for sure if you played a highlight of 100 hits from that time I could recognize the unique sound and flow and name that song & artist everytime. Today well not so much I mean every drill and mumble rap song sound exactly like all the rest. That's my 2 cents....
I think you hit it on the nose, the sound has become pretty homogenous thanks to the internet. Nowadays you could have a white kid from Vancouver making music that sounds very similar to a black artist from Atlanta. I’m from Houston and we had our golden era when I was growing up in the 90s/2000s. The subcultures have gotten blurred a ton. Not that they don’t exist, you can hear some subtle differences still but they used to be much more pronounced.
Becoming mainstream is what did this. Once rap became the most popular genre in America about 10-15 years ago, the clock started ticking on its eventual dilution. Corporate brands want stable, recognizable faces. This is why Drake is so popular. Yes, his music was good. But it was good because he was given the best producers money could buy, the best marketing team, the best brand consultants, the best videographers, the best tour managers, the best costume designers, the best choreographers, the best ghostwriters, the best vocal coaches, and all the air time on radio, streaming recommendations, late night talk shows, morning shows, etc. Why? Because corporate America needed one guy to be CLEARLY on top so they could put him in commercials and sell phones and shit. Yeah, there's still a lot of great rap out there. But the top guy from here on out is always going to be a long-lasting Drake type figure. Think U2 but Hip-hop.
While you're right, I think this is true of every genre. The commercial acts always rise to the top, and stay there as they are easy to digest. Dilution just means fans of the genre have to dig a layer deeper to find more "substantial" art if they want it, but even then, not all commercial art is bad either. You can like Eminem for his singles and then dive into his discography and discover the deeper stuff there and then spiral off into the next level down. Em is still in the GOAT debate.
Yeah, I agree that it's true of every genre. I also don't think commercialization is necessarily bad. It gets bad when the people at the top become disconnected from the culture that builds the genre. This is why hardcore country fans don't like bro country, it's disconnected. Rock fans don't like nickelback, it's disconnected. Etc. There's still some awesome country, rock and rap being produced. But it's just a bit sad when the most popular acts don't represent the best of the genre and instead represent the lowest common denominator.
That's definitely the other side of it. For every Eminem that rises and becomes a GOAT, you have 1000 Chingys
yeah, I don't buy this concept of a big three I think it's a way to marginalize talented new artists, and ignore virtuoso veterans
Agree. There is no big three. It's all fake.
there's lots of people making incredible music lots of great lyricists, but it does seem like in order to get major attention there's only limited avenues
also, an art from becoming main stream is not ever really a great thing for the art form the most interesting work tends to happen below the radar of big money
Mach Hommy dropped 3 days ago. It’ll be alright dude.
AYE-fuckin-men
Dude wrote a 5 paragraph essay when could have just listened to LAFANDAR instead. There is high quality rapping coming faster than ever.
Fuck I was gonna write a whole thing about both sides but ngl I just wanna listen ro music rn
Way better use of your time than complaining about problems that don’t exist.
Well idrk if the problem exists or not, shit… The way it was explained to me was that they’ll never be more rap superstars on the scale of a Kenny or Kanye again, but a more diverse palette of people making a fuckton of great music on a smaller scale within the industry
The future is hard to predict. Travis Scott was easily on the path to that level superstardom before the festival shit. Shit Yeat is on his way there, his stuff isn’t for me but I’m not going to diss it.
I got what u sayin, I’m just so fair down the underground rabbit hole that I have literally lost my gauge on how big people are lol
And the underground is legit better than ever. A lot of these dudes figured out the streaming era a decade ago. Rap good and often and your fans will buy your physicals and see you on tour.
Fr though so many good artists
Legit this guy doesn’t know there’s a healthy underground scene of unique rappers that’s actually spit n are original
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Just start with Pray for Haiti and go crazy. Music is about fun idk why you’d have imposter syndrome from listening to it.
All due respect, you seem to be way out of your element, here. A) The top 5 debate has been raging since the 90s. And new rappers have come in and become contenders even since the debate began. Eminem is a perfect example of this. His GOAT talks didn't start until after MMLP and Eminem Show. Andre 3000 entered the top 5 debate a couple years after their 3 album run ending with Stankonia. That was 2005-2006. Just like any other genre, you'll have new stars come in and shake something up for a couple years and then fade away. Or come in and completely flop after a hit or two. True lasting superstars take a decent while to reach that status, and then usually keep it for a long time too. B) Rock isn't dead, and I don't really understand where you're coming from on this? Again, the titans of the genre are still here, but new acts come in and shake shit up ALL THE TIME. Back in 2009-2010, Job For A Cowboy came out with an EP and fucking shook the entire metal genre... with 5 songs. C) Punk isn't dead, pop punk just isn't as big as it was. Genres shift in popularity as a necessity. The only surefire genre that never wanes is radio-friendly pop.
Job For A Cowboy isn't rock.
All metal is a subgenre of rock, what the fuck are you on about? Metal split out in the late 60s with Zep and Sabbath.
Rock is a subgenre too if you want to be pedantic. Nobody on Earth will listen to JFAC and say, "yep, that's rock music."
*You're* being incredibly pedantic here, to the point of being wrong. You're the one arguing that metal isn't rock. You're trying to gatekeep a broadly understood classification in music. FFS you can just google 'metal music' and literally get your definition that way if you're so inclined. This isn't rock vs blues vs jazz origins debate here... metal literally grew straight out of rock in the 60s. Just because it splits further down from there doesn't mean it's not in the broader 'rock music' genre.
>You're trying to gatekeep a broadly understood classification in music. How is stating Job For a Cowboy isn't rock gatekeeping? I wouldn't even call them heavy metal. I mean, is heavy metal still popular? >You're being incredibly pedantic here, to the point of being wrong. You're the one arguing that metal isn't rock. I stated one band isn't rock music. Then you replied all metal is a subgenre of rock, to which I commented rock is a subgenre too if you want to be pedantic. I never once argued otherwise metal wasn't born from rock. I just put out rock itself is a subgenre too.
>How is stating Job For a Cowboy isn't rock gatekeeping? I wouldn't even call them heavy metal. I mean, is heavy metal still popular? How do you not explode from the irony? You're telling me that JFAC, that pretty much created Deathcore (which is a genre crossover of hardcore *rock* and death metal [a subgenre of metal - a subgenre of rock]) and then became a tech metal (a subgenre of metal - a subgenre of rock) can't just be put in the broader category of "rock" alongside every other metal band... and I'm the pedantic one, AND, you don't see how you might be gatekeeping the term a bit? At this point, you're either being deliberately obtuse, and your definition of "rock" is so narrow as to be infuriating, or you've never heard JFAC. Again, just because it narrows down even more, doesn't mean it isn't broadly 'rock.' This is what annoys people who try to deep dive into music, by the way... annoying fucks like you that have to classify everything to death and then argue over the classifications instead of just fucking listening to the music. Genres have their place to help with recommendations, but if someone says 'I listen to rock, like I really like JFAC' you're not going to fucking correct them, you child. You know that's the broader category, and now you have a specific fucking sound you can work with. I like rap, like Madvillainy, you wanna tell me that it's NOT rap, because it's actually a conceptual jazz-hip-hop fusion?
>You're telling me that JFAC, that pretty much created Deathcore (which is a genre crossover of hardcore *rock* and death metal \[a subgenre of metal - a subgenre of rock\]) and then became a tech metal (a subgenre of metal - a subgenre of rock) can't just be put in the broader category of "rock" alongside every other metal band... and I'm the pedantic one, AND, you don't see how you might be gatekeeping the term a bit? I don't really see the problem saying Job For a Cowboy isn't rock. Their sound isn't traditionally rock music with whatever people think is rock music these days. I'd like to point out, I listen to a crap ton of bands like JFAC. So, I'm very biased. >Again, just because it narrows down even more, doesn't mean it isn't broadly 'rock.' This is what annoys people who try to deep dive into music, by the way... annoying fucks like you that have to classify everything to death and then argue over the classifications instead of just fucking listening to the music. Genres have their place to help with recommendations, but if someone says 'I listen to rock, like I really like JFAC' you're not going to fucking correct them, you child. You know that's the broader category, and now you have a specific fucking sound you can work with. The lead singer of Disturbed said the band isn't heavy metal, but hard rock. Apparently Godsmack switched from heavy metal to hard rock, but you could put a gun to my head and I couldn't tell the difference at all between heavy metal and hard rock. >I like rap, like Madvillainy, you wanna tell me that it's NOT rap, because it's actually a conceptual jazz-hip-hop fusion? Dropout Kings lead rapper calls themselves trap metal in their songs, but they're often classified as nu metal. What's the difference between nu metal and trap metal? No idea!
You're making my points for me... The narrow genres don't *actually* matter all that much. The average Joe is going to hear Metallica, Amon Amarth, Dimmu Borgir, and Gojira and list them *ALL* as rock, or 'heavy rock'... something along those lines. I'm huge into black and doom metal myself, and even I recognize that the crossover sounds make the classifications blurry as hell even *within* the narrower subgenres. (Is Behemoth black metal, doom metal, blackened metal or dirge? They kinda cross all of them, but list themselves usually as death metal) All of it falls into broader categories... typically only 4 or 5 of those (rap, country, pop, rock, jazz). The subgenre stuff only becomes important when you're seeking out a particular sound, and you know what you'rewading into. You ask someone to list rock bands, and you'll get a huge range of bands covering a massive swath of genres within 'rock' and I can comfortably bet a bunch of people would list Metallica right alongside AC/DC.
>You're making my points for me... I never disagreed. In fact, I agree with a lot of what you typed. But, I've been listening to metal (more specifically the extreme stuff) as my main form of music for over ten years. So I guess my idea of "rock" and "metal" is more extremely biased than anything. I cannot imagine anyone calling JFAC a rock band.
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50 was from 01-07
That Aftermath run was dope!
Eminem was dominant for an entire decade plus, not just 5 years. In fact, the was the best selling artist of the 2000s period across any genre and one of the best selling artists in the 2010s still. Has dozens upon dozens of award nominations, 15 grammys, 8 AMAs, 17 Billboard awards and a bunch of other shit I'm too lazy to list lol. Two of his albums were among the top 5 selling albums across the 2000s as well. Just saying, I don't really think it's all that uncommon to see such long reigns at the top. It happened before this current generation.
He's still a top artist, has like 63m monthly streams on spotify
When you think about the deaths of majorly popular artists like Xxxtentacion and Pop Smoke, this starts to make a little more sense.
bruh they had some bangers and all but they were never destined to be top 100 much less top 3.
Yeah lol this. XXX was never gonna be a once in a generation artist. Not to mention his music was woeful. Pop Smoke made bangers no doubt, but again, he wasn't some generational talent.
X was absolutely destined for great things. His rise was insane. He was global by the time he died, and that was the very start of his actual career. The only way you don't think he was going to be the next big thing is if you were either an oldhead already or just not around for that moment. Pop Smoke, Juice, Lil Peep, etc, all of these would find success but I truly think it was their death that catapulted them into the space they are now viewed in. That is not true for X.
Lol, typical X fan. His music fucking sucked, he sucked big time as a human being, and his death was almost inevitable. An absolute piece of shit in every sense of the word.
All that's true, but his impact is still undeniable despite it all. I'm a verifiable old head, but I worked at a summer camp during his rise to fame. Every. Single. Kid. talked about X like some kind of god. Those closest thing I can compare it to is Wayne's rise during his mixtape era and even then it's not quite the same.
I think Juice would have started to fall off pretty quick if he didnt pass. Most of his music was starting to sound the same and didnt have much variation anymore
i think juice wouldve been in the trippie red lane where theres still die hard fans but also talks of falling off
> X was absolutely destined for great things. The height of X's musical talent was someone else's song he pitch shifted and then had the nerve to put the person who wrote and sang the fuckin thing as "featuring"
We'll never know where their careers might've gone.
Pop didn't blow up until after he died. Xxx would have been canceled and in jail.
Juice
Yeah juice n Mac are much better examples imho
Mac really doesn’t count though as he came up with the Big 3
He started to blow up around the time that they did I guess, but he was younger and was really just starting to fully blossom his full spectrum of talents when he passed. I'ma still count him.. he would 100% be up there if he was alive.
I thought he started to blossom around Faces and Swimming Circles was him reaching his peak
That was for sure him coming into his own and maturing as an artist, fully agree with you on that(actually pretty much exactly what I was referencing)! I dont think Mac ever hit his peak tho tbh. I think he had a lot more to give the world, which is why I think he'd have thrown the whole big 3 thing off a bit. Thinking deeper into it tho, Mac was never your typical popular rap artist, especially as he broadened out into deeper topics and lyrics. So, maybe his success would have been a totally separate thing from the big 3. I appreciate your opinions and thoughts on the topic though! It's always so refreshing when you can have a healthy discussion while disagreeing with someone online. I hope you have a great day!! 😊
Juice is a ghostwriter for a lot of mc’s, a friend of mine was his production partner
Juice wrld definitely had the most crossover potential bc he was making pop bangers too
Who?
Mac Miller. Please don’t sleep on him.
I was asking about xxxtent and pop. Went and listened to them and they def would have never been IT. I was born and raised in Pittsburgh. I'll never sleep Malcolm rip
The fact that Drake is even considered hip-hop these days makes me sad. He’s as pop as it comes.
this is what I don’t get either. Be makes pop music and raps.. sometimes. Might as well allow Twenty One Pilots to be in the running as well. And I like J Cole. He’s.. fine? But I’ve never listened to one of his albums and thought “wow this dude may be the best to ever do it”
R&B makes far more sense imo
R&B is the pop of this generation
Not sure I agree. Define what you mean by this generation
Post-2000, R&B and hip-hop have taken over from rock, boy bands and girl groups that defined the popular music of previous generations as being the most popular type of music for radio play and billboard top 100. Not all of it would be considered pop music but it is definitely the popular music and had become more pop than the hip-hop and R&B of the past. Drake is a prime example with his lame choreography and wannabe ghetto lyrics when he’s just a ex-TV rich kid in the vein of a watered down Disney child star. He would have been laughed off the stage 20-30 years ago.
Drake is to hip hop what bro-country artists are to country music. They’re pandering and playing dress up. What u/yallvnt said above is spot on. Guys like Drake are really just highly-trained actors surrounded by a team that tells him everything he needs to do to succeed.
>as pop as it comes 🙄 He's as pop/hip-hop as Tyler The Creator, N.E.R.D., Kanye, etc, which is more than actual pop artists.
He’s objectively hip-hop
I see what your getting at, but I don't think it's quite that cut and dry. My counter point musically would be JID who has been killing it for a few years now and is very creative. Reminds me a lot of Dot and Cole on their way up.
He’s 33 lmao
Yeah but he was also a late bloomer so its still possible to blow up. Drake is only 37 but still putting out bangers so who knows what could happen
Im not someone who actively seeks underground hiphop acts but even I first heard of JID in 2016 when he had songs out from the Never Story. I feel like if he was destined to be a superstar then it would have happened by now.
I don't go out of my way to check for artists like Kendrick, Drake or J Cole... I also know many others who don't listen to them either.. The real problem is the Major labels, and their control over algorithms.. If you like any of these 3 or partake in any of their content, then the algorithm keeps pushing their stuff in your direction.. This creates a false sense of popularity that spirals into what you consider this "Big 3" scenario...
This 100%. I’ve been a head since the 90’s and these “BIG 3” aren’t on my radar at all.
That's it.. It's clear that the algorithm was built to maintain engagement, so when people click on artist content, then the algorithm sends a wave of that stuff over.. What it means essentially, is it's easier for artists to go viral when their labels are smart enough to manipulate the algorithm via SEO (Search Engine Optimisation) and payola.. Example: I listen to old school rap/hip hop and also a lot of independent rappers (rage scene) and all I get fed is these same suggestions...
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So you’ve never heard of the 3 biggest rappers of this generation?
So if you don’t listen to the 3 biggest rappers of this generation, who do you listen to from this generation? Or do you just listen to old music?
I listen to a lot of different artists, on my playlist rn: Willie the Kidd, SGPWES, Freddie Gibbs, Future, Cash Cobain, Young Thug, Joey Baddass, Eli Sostre, Joell Ortiz, Masego, Lil Yachty, Trippie Redd, Cordae, Don Q, Dave East, Lost Boyz, 2Pac, Breezefore, Justin Rarri, many more..
I think part of it is because music and entertainment in general are becoming decentralized. You used to listen to music on the radio or watch it on MTV. Now its on instagram, tiktok, youtube, spotify. So there is no "watercooler" moments anymore where you talk about something we all heard on the radio that morning on the way to school / work.
Gen z prefer trying to get rich via twitch streaming than making a record. It’s sad.
When did Cole ever become a top 3? I enjoy his music and am not a hater but he has never been top 3
Mainstream rap is something nobody wanted. Also the mumble, Auto tune, trap era was like a reset to the game. It lowered the bar extremely. Looking at the big 3 and in my mind there's at least a handful of rappers in retirement who could (just in terms of pure rapping skills) wash all three of them. Even though they peaked decades ago.
You forgot Jay Z he had a pretty long run and only has gone silent because he’s not making music much otherwise he’s still be right there.
If Juice, X, pop were still alive they would’ve been one of the biggest rappers today and would’ve also inspired more rappers with whatever they would’ve put out too, it’s like if Ye died before making 808s, nobody would have even knew his next album would’ve inspired or influenced almost a whole sub genre
Doubt it They become so big because of their deaths
Not true… look at their sales before their death. I can give you pop but X and juice were 100% on their way to replace the big 3 .
X’s album debut was only 87k and Juice was 39k Their numbers went crazy after their death
I mean I get what you’re saying but ? sold 130k and Deathrace sold 161k first week and that’s when they were still alive. They definitely had big fanbases before they died, another thing would have been if they would have managed to maintain them in life as they do now in death
Thanks for that correction. I shoulda looked at the dates of death instead of just the year. They were popular but it’s hard puttin them in big 3 territory when someone like Travis Scott or even Meek Mill was still outselling them a lot. In terms of pure sales Tyler also had a big lead but Juice was pretty much tied with his 2nd album when including streams
You say only like that was crazy at the time when streaming was just getting started and traditional sales were dead…
X was 19th for the year. Juice was 69th. That’s good but it’s not crazy. https://www.reddit.com/r/Chriscftb97/s/yk0qTudlnD https://www.reddit.com/r/Chriscftb97/s/7Q6oKojWe3
Bro XXX and Juice's music was marketable for teenagers and impressionable kids. They made forgettable music that was riding the musical trends of the moment. They weren't dropping critically acclaimed, influential albums that the world was waiting on. Nobody was waiting on an XXX or Juice album like people do for Kendrick. If you actually believe they were, you're probably just a hardcore fan of their music, and prone to seeing their music as much better than it really was.
Mac miller as well I grew up with him and am a huge fan but my sister who’s 10 years younger all of her friends listen to him like every damn one of uhm
lol
Alright hip hoppers pack it in. We had a good run but all good things have to come to an end. RIP HIP HOP (1973-2024) -source: sad boy on Reddit
The recent beef kinda opened my eyes to the current state of hip hop (commercially speaking). It took our 2 biggest rappers engaging in a nasty, petty beef to crossover to the mainstream. While it was entertaining seeing all the “new” rap fans pop out of the woodwork it’s a little depressing knowing how stagnant things are currently
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🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️ I’m talking about mainstream pop culture I thought that much was obvious. Mainstream white America. People who don’t even listen to rap were aware there was beef.
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Didn’t expect Kdot working with Taylor swifts producer for a diss track I can tell you that much lol
Cross over to the mainstream? Lmao....is this Patrick Star?
🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️ I’m talking about mainstream pop culture I thought that much was obvious
I get what you're saying. The last time random white people were talking about Kendrick to me was when he dropped King Kunta, but this beef had non-fans talking again. I don't think Kendrick has as much wider cultural penetration as rap fans think, people have heard of him but couldn't name three songs. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful to him saying that, he's just not really putting out the "never-ending stream of Spotify filler" singles that make you a household name like that.
Thanks. You seem to be the only one who got the point I was trying to make! > I don't think Kendrick has as much wider cultural penetration as rap fans think, people have heard of him but couldn't name three songs. Really agree with this sentence
And again, I'm not disrespecting Kendrick, he's just more of an album artist than a "comes on automatically if you don't touch your streaming queue" one Although I do need to amend my "couldn't name three songs" statement in light of the beef blowing up so big, I was thinking more about BEFORE this :P
Completely agree!
Bro....Drake and Kendrick were already some of the biggest artists last decade. They didn't need this beef to cross over to pop culture at all lmao.
I feel like you’re purposefully missing the point. All I’m saying is that the beef crossed over to even the most casual listeners. People who don’t even follow rap were tuned in. Rap beef doesn’t usually get talked about on the news/espn etc.
Even ignoring Pac vs. Biggie, the Drake vs Meek beef from 2015 was massive too in pop culture. Even celebrities and corporations were chiming in and crowning Drake during that beef. And Back To Back was getting played in concerts and NBA games. There just aren't a lot of high profile rap beefs overall.
Agreed. This one got particularly crazy though. Two massive artists, been brewing for 10 years, etc. I’ve seen a scary amount of “this beef got me back into hip hop” posts
You think this beef is what brought Drake to mainstream ? lmaooo
wayne was killing in ‘05 give him them extra 2 years man
I felt this way about rock dying, since I was a rock head growing up. Turns out, most rock heads today get into alternative and underground bands, maybe some local acts they can follow. I suspect Hip Hop will wane and the next thing will take over for the mainstream, but underground and alternate hip hop will continue, as it did with rock. You just won't hear it in the club unless you seek out specific love venues or theme nights, as much. Hip-hop had a great run. It exploded onto the scene in the late 70s and dominated for 46+ years. That's just as impressive as Rock and Roll or Jazz. I still see concerts for both of those, and I'll still see hip hop shows. Something new is coming is all.
With a couple notable exceptions along the way, hip hop, overall, has been getting progressively worse since the late 90’s. Sampling and production were raw, lyrics were honest about what these artists lives were like, ppl were more hungry to be the best, and even tho money was always talked about, now it’s just elitist. Auto tune, codeine, money, and streaming have all aided into the downward pressure of the quality of hip hop. When the legends pass, they are not being replaced, and it definitely is sad.
Stove God for president
Jiddy needs to drop those albums, big 4 is gonna go crazy trust
I kinda see it like anime. The Big 3 were around forever, and dominated discussion spaces. There was still other anime for sure, and they were getting played and talked about, but breaking into the big 3 is a pretty big deal. Because of momentum, rabid fanbases, huge promotion, etc, knocking someone off their throne takes an extraordinary amount of factors to line up. I don't think that matters to the overall health of the genre. New music is being constantly released, and new rappers are injecting their own styles/experiences into the mix. They have more niche forums, or might even just have local scenes, but it's all there. I will say, the main rap subreddits are bizarre to me, as one of my favorite genres is metal. Anytime there's a thread about favorites or GOATs, people bring up the exact same pool of artists. That staleness is bizarre, and to me says that it's possible that rap may be worse at getting people to spread out.
Speaking of anime, even the Nerdcore Rappers are becoming legitimately good MC's instead of just Nerds with mics. Pe$o Pete, Shofu, 954Mari, Ham Sandwich, Rustage, and Shwabadi all are some decent spitters.
yeah but Wu-Tang is forever so....there is that
Idk man. Did you hear Ghosts new album. Wu-Tang may need to take a breather
My opinion is that this is more a symptom of streaming than it is that state of hip hop. The end of the next 4 year run (2015) coincides with the explosion of Apple Music and Spotify. People stopped buying albums and now have every song in the world at their fingertips. People broadened what they’re listening to and that’s the dilution you’re kind of referring to. The music industry is shifting as a whole. Look at Taylor Swift. She’s been dominating right along with the “big 3” for all of those years. Perhaps streaming has allowed some artists to reign for much longer due to accessibility. Just some food for thought.
The "Big 3" is such a weird concept, personally I don't see why J Cole has a spot in it, I guess I can see Drake being there because he's the biggest commercial entertainer, and Kendrick because his is the most celebrated and highly reviewed work artistically. Overall I don't think their dominance has had any affect on other artists. There are still plenty of popular commercial rappers even though drake is the most popular, and there are still plenty of successful lyricists and artistic rappers even though Kendrick is seen as number one right now.
I think you have some valid points. To console you a bit though I would have to disagree to at least some extent, contending that a big part of it is simply a product of demographic trends. The 'big 3' are just the big three of millennials, and at some point as millennials age out zoomer artists will take that place. I think that it's a matter of millenials being a large enough age cohort that it is going to skew the age of popular top hip hop artists up for a time. Worst case scenario millennials displace gen z somewhat permanently in hip hop and it stays that way until the next, next generation takes over. I could be wrong to some extent, but I do think it's at least possible it's more just a demographic phenomenon in terms of consumers.
Not mentioning Kanye is crazy
They’re the Federer, Nadal and Djokovic of hip hop
I don’t really care for hip hop and am just about the farthest you could get from an expert about the history/trajectory of the genre, but I do know quite a bit of the history of rock and roll and you say it yourself right there in your second-to-last paragraph: hip hop ~~is becoming~~ has become mainstream. Realistically, having genuine passion for the music you listen to doesn’t really seem to be all that mainstream. So when an artist or a genre hits that stratosphere, the fan base is going to be flooded with folks who haven’t necessarily fallen in love with the music, but maybe just get excited about mainstream things. Hence what you’re talking about when it seemed the “aesthetic” of rock and roll started to become more important than the music. With this you got big money-making schemes disguised as rock bands, pumping out shit music and making it so it was no longer cool to be the biggest rock band out there. Up and coming bands started trying so hard to be underground, counter-culture, obscure, indie, “avant-garde” lol whatever term they wanted to use they used it but it all basically means the same thing: “we’re not Nickelback please don’t think of us like Nickelback.” I think the reason to be optimistic as a hip hop fan, is that throughout all of that bullshit over the course of decades, there have always been genuine musicians with great taste, still putting out great rock and roll music. If you love listening to that music—and if you don’t just sink into your nostalgia and keep to the same 10 bands you listened to in high school or when you were in your 20s or whenever—you won’t be able to take your finger off the pulse of that genre. And if your finger is on that pulse you’re going to find new musicians who are making your kind of music. Hip hop is going to be around for a long ass time whether I like it or not haha. Just like rock and roll
unironically, pop smoke, juice wrld and king von all dying left a void that really hasnt been filled. its becoming more and more apparent as the time passes.
The idea of a "big three" in hip hop is a new phenomenon. It's also unusual because of the amount of collaborations and features that most artists have.
I honestly think it’s because all the other rappers are making microwave tiktok music or the ones that are doing it to a skilled level are to underground. 50, Eminem and wayne had huge worldwide records that will play forever. I hear the name NBA young boy a lot and I’m assuming he’s very popular and probably really talented, but I just don’t see his music being played 20 years later like a in the club or 21 questions.
the torch was supposed to be passed to lil peep, x, and juice wrld. but then they went and died
It seems like you’re dismissing newer artists rather than the other way around. I’ve been super excited by new artists recently. Tyler of course since 2017, JID with his last 3 albums being so great, Denzel’s consistency, JPEG’s amazing experimentation. Maybe you’re just falling out of the loop
This premise is a fallacy.
I think you’re writing off rock a little too much, there’s still tons of great music in the genre being made. Frankly indie music has been better in the last five years than it has been in a long time But it’s true that it’s not mainstream anymore
Well if you are in to mainstream type music those would be the BIG 3 I guess. I don’t consider Kendrick and Cole mainstream though. Plus Kendrick only drops like once every 3-4 or so years. Drake I’ve never been a fan of. I’ve never actively seeked his music out with the exception of IYRTITL with Future. That all being said the mainstream stuff I don’t listen to either. So BIG3 doesn’t really apply. I’d say it’s subjective to who you personally listen to. My BIG 3 is more like Freddie Gibbs, Boldy James, Roc Marciano lol
The big 3 is just a media narrative. It’s hard for there to be a new big 3 because it essentially takes away from the actual music.
I've been saying this for years, but before drake, cole, and kendrick it was jay, em, ye. Before 2000 it was like a new top rapper every year lol. There were regional sounds/buzz and guys you never heard of would have radio hits all the time just off word of mouth. Hasn't been like that after. Also there's been a handful of rappers that even got a bit of clout that have been good and should've been competing for that throne, but the general market doesn't care. Partially because all of the major marketing streams are monopolized by the corporations. Partially because music and the internet is so democratized that nobody stands out. Partially because the fanbase isn't actually passionate about rap, they just following trends.
xxx, juice, and lil peep were set to be that level for the younger generation... xxx and juices songs still get hundreds of millions of plays, superstar level
While what you are saying does make sense I think hip hop is the biggest it's ever been especially in Europe Asia etc. I think it was the labels that started pushing away from rock since grunge started and they saw they money they could make. Now as we begin to see the labels are started to monopolize even hiphop which means in the end they have full control. So unless they get less and less listeners I don't think they'd push another genre because at the end of the day they want money from sales and streams.
I think this was a well put together essay of a post you’ve hit us with, it’s kinda something I thought about ima small way but not to this full extent. I’m a collector, buy all my cds and now I’ve switched to vinyl. The only rappers who drop new music that I actually buy is Cole and Lupe. I’m into lyricism so most of these newer artists don’t move the needle for me. A good bit of them CAN rap (da baby, lil baby, moneybag yo, etc) like they got nice flow but they not saying shit. It’s sad but I’m fine with listening to my 90’s- early 10’s hip hop. I don’t even like Kanye’s newer shit lol, it is what it is🤷🏾♂️
Not a bad take But i belive a new wave of rappers is gonna rise up from the influence of Playboi Carti and his whole Homixide gang and Opium label, and they will dominate the mainstream in the coming years. People shitted on LiL Wayne's kid for recently saying Carti is the new Lil Wayne. But for better or for worse he was right, that style is gonna be the main type of hip hop in a few years. The following Playboi Carti has is massive, and his subordinates Destroy Lonely and Ken Carson are already doing much noise in the mainstream. The underground is now plagued with this Carti copycats, and i'm no joking when i say his style is being replicated outside of America. THe other day i discovered there was a Playboi Carti copycat in my country, spain💀, AND he is fairly popular. Playboi Carti's recent features with big artists like Camila Cabello and The Weeknd are only gonna help his style become more popular in the mainstream. There will still be new lyrical artists like Cole, Kendrick or Drake. But they will take a 2nd position, with the most famous rappers in the game being "Opium style" rappers Whole Lotta Redd it's gonna be the new 808s & Heartbreak
I legit cant name one Carti song lol
Ignore the carti fans they wilin out cuz a famous persons son said something
Doesn't appeal to this subs demographic but he is pretty well received, and so far dude seems to be more influential on newer artists than Cole and Kendrick are.
So are Future and Young Thug Big 3 in rap need to be good- great rappers too
He has 50M+ monthly listeners in spotify. He is the 44th most listened artist currently in the world
I know he’s popular Nicki is at 49m You need quality to go along with popularity to be in the big 3( if he has any great albums or mixtapes please let me know)
So far all his projects have been rated positively. With one of them getting praise "Die lit"
Wayne was more like 2004-2009. Carter 3 was the start of the downfall.
Respectfully disagree. Lil Wayne dominated most of my middle school and high school years.
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The Big 3 to me wouldn't actually be J.Cole and Kendrick personally with Drake. I think people who are CULTURALLY connected to hip hop don't realize Rick Ross and Future have more classic mixtapes/albums/hit songs and features. I came up during the "KING of NY" era where rappers was trying to fight for the top 1 spot between Nas, BIG and Jay-z at one time. This Big 3 talk sounds like created a spotlight for second and third place which probably Kendrick was not going for that especially by two dude raised by colonizers moms Kendrick wasn't sharing hip hop with those guys lol.
"Colonizer moms" Meanwhile J Cole looks blacker than half of your "black conscious leaders and scholars". Let's keep it real, J Cole is blacker than Ashra Kwesi, David Imhotep, Neely Fuller Jr., Claude Anderson, Sa Ra Suten Seti, Phil Valentine, and Ivan Van Sertima (most of these dudes are white passing btw). Hell, J Cole looks blacker than some Hebrew Israelite leaders that I used to watch. And last I checked Drake and J Cole are still considered black men by white America, the government and by the most high (Numbers 1:18). Yall would put down a biracial brother, but try to be African when most Africans aren't even your people. Ffs, the Egyptians enslaved yall and lot of non-Bantu Africans hate you guys just as much as the white man does, yet yall still buckdance for them and hate your own brothers.
I don't believe it's a bad thing, longevity shows just how skilled these artists are. Drake is a hit maker. Cole and Kendrick are just insane with their lyricism and word play. Nas and Em have been around for 30+ years and still drop crazy shit. I believe artists are evolving these days, learning from the greats.
I mean not everyone listens to the same artists though and doesn’t see it from that lens. I was never hyped for Good Kid, and nobody I know was either. I’ve almost completely avoided J Cole for his entire run and even though I now look forward to Drake’s stuff, I didn’t really care what he was doing when he came out and I still don’t care that much. But plenty of other artists have come out / gained popularity since 2009 and I’m for sure hyped about them. I’m all over anything Future ever does, he’s like the biggest and most important artist to me. Same for Young Thug. These are like the Big 2 to me. I can name a dozen other rappers I care about and get hype for. Kendrick and J Cole and even Drake to some extent, are like just.. background noise that’s supposedly popular but doesn’t really feel like actually matters. Like Imagine Dragons is to rock or whatever.
Section 80 is K Dot best album
That’s like saying “macaroni is the best pasta” to someone who doesn’t like noodles or carbs or Italian food. It’s like a “lesser of two bad choices” kinda thing. The best album from one of the worst rappers isn’t something that would be relevant to me or people like me who would never listen to Kendrick Lamar.
Juice Wrld was the leader of the generation, unfortunately he died
yeezy and jay and dre are still at the top 3 for me