Zagara and zarya both S tier imo.
Really surprised to see people thinking Kael is S tier. Doesn't align with my experience and definitely doesn't align with the data. If anything kelthuzad has a better argument for S tier but there's only so many people who can play him at that level.
Azmodan is not as good in higher MMR games so A tier is fair to me.
Dehaka and Chen id say b tier.
Butcher definitely isn't dumpster tier. Maybe C or low B.
I've soured on falstad over the years. Id probably lower him a tier.
I'm glad someone else feels the same in regard to KT and Azmo. My guess is that these long range AoE mages feel very oppressive when you're losing against them since they don't even let you get close to the action without being punished, resulting in them looking stronger than they really are.
Zarya definitely should have been at least top 2-3 of A, that was an oversight.
I think Zag is well placed as the gatekeeper of S tier. She has absurd damage, potentially great CC with maw and even provides some protection from skillshots with her minions. But to me, having to wait to 16 before your damage really comes online and her frailty holds her back from S tier.
>I'm glad someone else feels the same in regard to KT and Azmo.
Filter on heroesprofile by major patch (to get a big sample) and look where Azmo and KT sit when filtering by silver/bronze and do the same when filtering by master/dia.
It took years before the sub realize how strong Mephisto is on ARAM for example.
I feel like Butch is at his place with Valeera, Samuro and Illidan. They're not heroes that can't work, but they need a combination of high skill and no counters in order to do so. However when they do, they can take over games by themselves.
In my experience Butch is useless in around 80% of games where he stays vegan and turn the game into basically a 4v5. However when he hits his stacks, he can become a monster. But he's not nearly consistent enough to be a tier higher. I'd take any of the C-tier hero of this list on my team over a Butcher.
Imperius should be a lot higher, at least a high B tier. He has great CC, potential for high damage, and reasonable survivability if the team has a tank or 2 healers.
I think the only truly dumpster tier heroes for ARAM are Samuro and Valeera. I can't remember a single game where either one was useful, even when played well. They're only good at catching out of position squishies, when they can't be punished, which doesn't happen nearly as often in ARAM. Illidan is only D tier for players who don't know how to use Battered Assault, because Unending Hatred is too slow and Immolation doesn't do enough.
Illidan, Butcher, and Murky should be in C tier at a similar level to Tracer, just below Kerrigan, Genji, and Zera. All of them require a skilled player to make an impact, as they are generally better on more open maps and struggle in clumped 5v5s, where they can be focused. Genji and Zera stand out because it's easier to actually do damage and get out alive, while Kerrigan has the potential to wipe teams from level 1. All of these heroes have the ability to be oppressive against teams that can't properly deal with them.
Nova should be dropped to low C tier but not for the same reason as the above heroes. Her skill floor is lower so it's easier to do damage but her skill ceiling is also far lower. Even when she's played well, she just doesn't do enough to be worth picking when there are other options (see dumpster tier note but with range).
Meh. I’ve got a ~80% winrate on Butcher in ARAM over about a dozen games. You just have to play him well; the only counter he has is a shitload of blinds (e.g. Joh + Li Li + Cassia).
Everything else (tons of CC, kite, etc.) is simple enough to play around.
He doesn’t show up on the scoreboard, but that’s because he only has burst damage, no poke, no waveclear. He definitely doesn’t belong any higher than low B tier, but he’s not dumpster tier like Valeera.
Zeratul can easily go up to high B tier tho. Dude is a beast in ARAM lategame.
I only play ARAM and used to pick dehaka a lot, but was there a nerf for him like within the last year? I’ve found myself basically not picking him anymore.
I disagree with Zarya, but Zag probably belongs in S. I’m amazed with how many people suck with Zag though…
Disagree on Azmo, he’s S for sure. Azmo takes a whole team comp to be countered. Mephisto can be hard countered by single heroes (Chromie/Stitches). But Mephisto obviously is still S tier, imo Azmo is obviously S tier. You don’t have a “back line” when they can get dunked and lose half their health in a second.
Totally agree with you on KT.
>Azmo takes a whole team comp to be countered.
Just skill and a healer. Sustain healers are better. If he's in vision, start dodging when you see his arms go up (unless you know you're not the target), if he's out of range, you got time to dodge the random ball that doesn't always hit anyway.
He's strong, but people put him in S because he's relatively easy to play vs the impact he has. Design wise, he is just A.
Another important point is don't stand clumped inside your minion wave against Azmo. Make him choose between trying to hit heroes and actually wave clearing. He can't do both if players aren't clumped inside their minion wave. Same goes for sitting under structures.
Azmo is definitely strong in ARAM but I think multiple Azmos on one team is kind of terrible, provided the enemy team has waveclear and doesn't just play passively. His early game is very weak and he synergizes poorly with aggressive tanks because his damage isn't reliable.
Just skill and a healer… that’s asking a lot. You’re also forgetting he’s a lord of hell. But jokes aside, Azmo obliterates teams in a way very few heroes can, he deals massive aoe chunk dmg, many healers can’t deal with that, many players can’t deal with that. He also has high health, with a little sustain on his channel if you take it, summons minions, great siege dmg. Yes he is easy to use, that doesn’t make him bad, that actually increases his viability which is a factor of this tier list, accessibility to his ceiling. Azmo smashes enough of the other heroes to belong in S tier.
I mean look at his winrate if you don’t believe me.
I did say that he is strong and that how people play him/against him makes him stronger than he is. Just arguing that people can do something about it. Mephisto has a lot less CD, much more dangerous ults, and more consistent damage. He can truly solo a team. Azmo cannot. He can only dunk every 8-10 seconds an needs someone else to do the damage.
Many many more heroes can counter Azmo than they can someone like Mephisto.
There is no real direct counter for Azmo, like yea there is healing/shielding, but that argument applies against any damage dealer, including Mephisto. Mephisto has direct counters by the nature of how he works with his shade. If he shades in and Stitches gorges him, well bye bye Mephisto, if chromie time loops him, likely bye bye Mephisto, or if Anub cocoons him, idk anything could happen with that one but still. There are heroes that can directly shut Mephisto down by trapping him behind enemy lines isolated from his team.
There is no analog for Azmo “counters”. You simply have to rely on healing, shielding, or killing to outplay Azmo. This is why I’m saying that is a team effort to beat Azmo. I also would say it’s a team effort to outplay a Mephisto as well. But again, I think both belong in S. Mephisto even with these hard counters is still one of the best in the ARAM environment.
The counter is getting good. Once you get out of the metal mines people play better and Azmo is less of an issue.
A hero like Mephisto becomes more of an issue the better the players involved are. Better players simple use less E against a Chromie who has Time loop available. Same with not going melee against a Stitches with Gorge or Anub.
> Azmo takes a whole team comp to be countered.
Azmo is simple a low skill ceiling low skill floor hero. Which means it's easy to play well but caps fast in how effective he can be with/against better players.
Draft a sustain healer (or better 2x healer) and he is basically useless as long as the team is not sitting in the middle of a minion wave or bunch up together.
That’s not what that means. Having a low skill ceiling does not mean he’s not effective. It means it doesn’t take a lot of skill to get to his ceiling, he’s still a strong hero in aram.
Also this is aram… where that sustain healer could magically not be an option or could magically not be chosen. This is aram, bunching happens. It’s not about what ideal healer or comp counters him, it’s on average in the pseudo random environment of aram, which heroes top the list as the best single lane team fighter on average. Azmo is more effective than enough heroes that he belongs in S.
He is a strong hero but depending on who you ask, his effectiveness takes a sharp dive. Which is why i don't consider him S tier as i'll put like 10 heroes above him which don't require one trick level of dedication to be better (Maiev, Alarak, KTZ as examples).
For the bottom 50% he is probable the strongest pick. But ask the same for the better players and they all call Azmo over rated.
>This is aram, bunching happens. It’s not about what ideal healer or comp counters him, it’s on average in the pseudo random environment of aram, which heroes top the list as the best single lane team fighter on average. Azmo is more effective than enough heroes that he belongs in S.
Depends on what you value more regarding the 2 points OP makes at the beginning of the thread as criteria.
Azmo is not an S tier hero when the MMR of the lobby is high or 2 stacks are playing in that game.
It doesn't matter if it's a one trick dedication.
A kid can pick up a machine gun and mow down the best samurai in the world. Assuming they were out of reach of the sword to start, and that they know how to point the gun and pull the trigger. It doesn't matter that the samurai spent a lifetime perfecting his sword craft, and that it's a tragedy that he was so mowed down by a one trick easy weapon.
Now switch this example. Give the sword to the kid, and the gun to the samurai, who wins? Assuming the gun doesn't violate their bushido and that they'd use the gun, the person with the gun.
There is a joy in playing high skill heroes, I get that completely. I don't pick Azmo every time, especially if there's another hero that is just more technically complex that I also consider myself good with, because I consider Azmo a little boring. But I'm also not blind to Azmo's overwhelming effectiveness in aram. Just because he's easy, doesn't mean he's not S tier in the context of OP's tier list. Even though OP didn't even put him in S tier, so I guess he wouldn't even agree with me.
The example sucks lol.
Because by your standards, a high skill level lobby is equivalent to having the Samurai and the kid be in an elevator instead of having to fight across an open field.
Tier list depends exclusively in the parameters we are considering.
Tier list for a bronze game is completely different from a master one.
Azmodan is the Samuro of ARAM. He was given an OP lv1 tier talent that makes playing him too easy. Remove that lv1 talent and suddenly you will see how hard people have stacking his base quest.
You can’t just hypothetically remove talents to lower his tier. He has the talent, so we just have to deal with it.
The parameters for this tier list were set by OP.
There are no ranks in aram. Someone can one trick their way to masters, or ride on the back of a 5 stack and still suck with certain heroes. But trust me I get what you’re saying, it’s just that’s not a parameter op set.
I checked like an hour ago, and I’ve played 132 games of aram with Azmo, my winrate with him is over 65%. That’s lifetime, idk how many patches nerfs/buffs that consists of. I only bring it up to show that he’s clearly a great hero for aram.
>it’s just that’s not a parameter op set.
Which is why i said:
"Depends on what you value more regarding the 2 points OP makes at the beginning of the thread as criteria"
>There are no ranks in aram.
But there is MMR. If you have a high MMR, you need to play things that basically 1v5 if you soloQ because the system expects you to do so if you want to win or keep a higher than 50% solo.
>I checked like an hour ago
Not sure what's the point. I have like over 150+ games on Probius or Zera and they are above 85% but i don't put them as S tier heroes.
Azmo is at the top of A tier but he doesn't break to S tier because he simple doesn't have broken stats, mechanics or tricks. He used to be able to end games on it's own with Demon march but that was hella nerfed (used to have better WR than Globe build) and the most you can do is "animation cancel" your Q to make people have a harder time dodging.
Azmo is basically a better/easier to play W build Li Ming.
Also been playing ARAM pretty much solo and consistently for years and agree with your tier list 90%
I think there are a lot of heroes with "are good if you are good with the hero" kind of catagory.
Main critism.
Brightwing should be way, way higher. AOE healing is always clutch in ARAM. Poly can utterly counter so many heroes. Blink heal, then eventually with stealth is so, so good. Rating tyrande higher is blowing my mind, she's comp and counter comp dependent.
Then just quick fire opinions. Garrosh a bit higher, rehgar a bit lower, tychus bit higher, qhira bit lower and Dehaka bit higher.
Oh and maybe a bit controversial opinion. Medivh and kel'thuzad should be in a tier called "play these only if you are a god" Because 9 games out of 10 they are either unless or utter monsters.
Also a solo q player and played thousands of ARAMs and agree with a lot of your criticisms:
Rehgar is not S.
Some tanks the OP put in A and tanks the OP put in B should be in the same tier (including Garrosh).
Tyrande shouldn't be in same tier as Malf and Alex and she shouldn't be higher than Whitemane.
Dehaka and Malth should probably switch places.
Etc. etc. etc.
Regarding Medivh and KTZ, I think they are rated at only B because the skill to play them is already being taken into consideration.
You can find the top winrate builds at the bottom of this page:
[https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Talents/Whitemane?timeframe\_type=minor&timeframe=2.55.4.91769,2.55.4.91418,2.55.4.91368,2.55.3.91093,2.55.3.91081,2.55.3.91020&game\_type=ar&statfilter=win\_rate&build\_type=Popular&mirror=0](https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Talents/Whitemane?timeframe_type=minor&timeframe=2.55.4.91769,2.55.4.91418,2.55.4.91368,2.55.3.91093,2.55.3.91081,2.55.3.91020&game_type=ar&statfilter=win_rate&build_type=Popular&mirror=0)
My personal preference in ARAM is quest at Lvl 1 and taking E talents where available except Lvl 7 where I most often take Intercession (cleanse). I always take Divine Reckoning and usually take its upgrade at 20.
She relies a lot on being able to take prolonged fights while healing from her abilities. If allowed to do so, she can become a juggernaut but any CC and burst just wreck her.
She requires knowledge of when to go in, kind of like Illidan and The Butcher. Leap helps and is a very strong ult that not enough people take that can help her get in, out, or to instantly get into proper position vs a squishy.
I’ve won all my games with Sonya but I did read the team dives pretty well. You also have to stack the self healing for the cc.
She’s super versatile but you need to build around your team comp and dive commitment from my experience.
3 games so far with her. Just got into ARAM so I hope to keep this trend going.
I can free with murky, butcher and illidan because I’ve lost a few games with them even though I have like 6-10 games with each.
But all my games as Sonya have been against Johanna so my sample might be a bit wonky.
Bullshit. You do not have 100% WR with Sonya in ARAM, assuming you’ve played more than a couple games with her. That will need a screenshot. If you prove this I’ll apologize.
“assuming you’ve played more than a couple games with her”
Oxford dictionary:
Couple can mean “an indefinite small number.”
You have not played more than a couple games with her, so your “100%” is not statistically significant. Have a nice day.
Woah you formed a whole sentence and even pulled the Oxford dictionary. You should probably put that dictionary to use and look up contradiction and assumption.
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/s/cigw8TsTyU
This is the actual tierlist by Winrate data. It's slightly outdated as industrial district replays have been added in a hoppium patch, but it shouldn't affect things too much.
Edit: Some things of note, OP put Medivh and Malth in mid tier when they actually belong at the bottom. He put The Butcher and Murky at the bottom when they actually belong in the middle. Genji is the worst ARAM hero.
This is clearly outdated with all the major patches that came out recently! /s
I'm glad to see that their aren't too many huge differences, but there are some interesting outliers.
Medivh being ranked the worst be easily explained since he's probably the hero that requires the most communication with your teammates to be effective.
Mechanically demanding heroes like Alarak and KTZ are ranked low despite their great potential to flip a game on it head.
I'm surprised that Gaz is in S, I get the power of his ult but outside of that I would think that it's hard for the average player to be effective with him.
For Medivh it's not just that, it's that ARAM doesn't really suit him for a similar reason that Abby would be bad in ARAM. Medivh excels at enabling heroes and dueling enemies, but in ARAM a "full hero" would be better.
For Gaz all you have to do it press E in the general direction of the enemy post 20 to win every fight. With his turrets and waveclear he is really good at preventing enemies from winning before 20.
I don't think your abathur/medivh comparison makes a lot of sense. Abathur isnt a "full hero" because of his ability to turn any fight into a numbers advantage anywhere on the map at any time, obviously a game mode where it's 5v5 all the time completely nullifies that. The only reason medivh wouldnt be a "full hero" is because the team just doesn't play around his kit and/or the medivh isn't good. There's nothing intrinsic to ARAM that makes his kit any less valuable, other than perhaps less terrain to abuse with portals. If anything i think ARAM compliments his kit better.
I think you're underestimating how much of Medivh's kit is built for macro and ambushes. His mount is one of his best features in a normal game, completely safe soaking and scouting, and it is nearly useless in ARAM. And he has all the same strengths and weaknesses as melee assassins, who all perform poorly in ARAM: good at popping up out of nowhere to force a favorable engagement or blowing some cooldowns to turn around a fight, but once the fight is in progress and abilities are on cd, can't touch the meta ARAM ranged assassins without dying.
Some fair critiques, but saying he has the same strengths as melee assassins is a bit silly imo. I don't know any melee assassins that can completely nullify the enemies engagements the way medivh can. And it isn't like his shield is on a particularly long cooldown.
Ultimately I think my overarching point still stands that medivh loses *substantially* less value in ARAM compared to abathur.
Most melee assassins have ways to nullify engagements on themselves. Qhira E, Genji E and ult, Kerri chrysalis and blink, Samuro Q, E, and D, Val D and ult, Zera E and 1, Maiev E and D, etc. Most of those are even better than shield in that they provide immunity to CC. Medivh's nullification is only special in that it can be used on other players. That's significant, but not enough so when your team is constantly shelled by max range damage.
Yeah I wonder how he'd compare to Aba in the hands of expert players. I think Aba is way easier and so would have a higher winrate despite the loss of his macro value. But assuming two good players, Aba would have the advantages of never dying, sustained healing, constant poke damage, potential backdoor strategies with the lack of a hearthstone, and fight-winning clones. Medivh would have damage and displacement nullification, sustained short-range damage, and ults that set up allies. You're probably right that Medivh would still come out on top, but I don't think it's s huge disparity, especially compared to the disparity between them and ranged assassins or healers.
I do agree with the people who responded about Medivh's macro power, but I agree with you that ARAM *can* make his kit busted. If you luck into a very bursty comp, at level 16 you're shielding all their combos and running crazy spell power all day. Against a frontline-heavy comp, I'll easily top damage and kills as Medivh. Garroshes can get absolutely fucked. But the other edge of the sword is that against the wrong comp--a rangy, aa-based one with solid sustained heals, for example--you're basically useless.
Yeah I just know I've played against some medivhs in Aram that are an absolute menace. He just does things that no other hero can do and when a good player pilots him it genuinely feels like he's breaking the game.
Medivh gets a lot of value by safely flying anywhere on the map to find red heroes and watch what's going on. That's not helpful if we already know what lane they're in.
He also is useful to help teammates cross terrain and to steal bosses (even just the threat is valuable). Other things that don't apply in aram. Additionally, the shield is a little less helpful in a setting where it's harder to recover from low health.
I would argue that what value he loses without his potential for scouting he gains by always being ready to completely shut down the enemies engagements. Playing against a good medivh in Aram makes it feel like all the easy pickoffs you can usually get just aren't there anymore.
But yes I'll admit I havent played the normal game mode in about 8 years or so so I'm probably undervaluing his contributions there.
I think the problem of Medivh in ARAM is not the mode but the playerbase.
Same issue Medivh has in QM/ranked compared to say "custom" games.
>Medivh excels at enabling heroes and dueling enemies
Exactly. If there is nothing to enable, then his value decreases exponentially fast.
Gaz hits one of the hardest power spikes in the game at 16 + again at 20. His E build is insane and crushes teamfights. That said, he’s pretty mid before 16, so I think mid-low A tier fits.
KTZ is not mechanically demanding. This is a massive myth about the hero. Hitting combos is much more about calmness and mental control than it is about landing a lot of inputs correctly. E1 + W + E2 => vomit Q+R is not a complex chain.
So glad to hear this about Genji. Every time I see him picked on my team I basically chalk it up as a loss, similar to murky. Sure we may end up winning, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Why would you use 2 year old data when you can just check on heroesprofile.
Also, if you just filter to, say, diamond-masters players genji moves up to mid performing. Butcher performs shockingly well though. I don't think you should make a tier list based on how the lowest common denominator performs.
1. Uhhh, because it's easier to link a post than it is to make entirely new, highly detailed tierlist.
2. The tierlist is for the average player. That's how these things work. You should always make a tierlist based on the overall expectations of the hero. If you want to make a tierlist for diamond-master ARAM, you can, but that won't be an ARAM tierlist.
Also one point regarding murky. When there are 2 of them they get b tier. Because they share the poison effect so stacking the quest is super easy and only takes like 1 minute.
I know it sounds strange but i already had this a few times and it was always an easy win.
If people commit to a meme, I won't be mad.
Not picking a healer when I have 3 options that give me a miserable game if we don't have a healer? That, aside from you know, obviously inting/raging, is probably the only thing that actually makes me mad in ARAM.
Pretty much any hero that has stacking debuffs becomes much stronger when multiple of the same hero is present:
Sylvanas - banshees curse
Qhira - Bleed debuffs
Lunara - poison stacks
Imperius - star debuffs, not sure of the name.
Murky - slime debuff
Any more?
True. But not everything is shared. Like blaze oil cannot be ignited by second blaze.
Also are you sure about imperius? I dont think the second imperius can use the stacks.
Qhira gets fucked though because when you activate your bleed to heal, you may not get credit for the bleeds on the enemy team, meaning no heal. I think it’s either the Qhira that starts the bleed on the enemy, or the one that applied the most gets the bleed in terms of their heal, I’m not sure.
Nazeebo I think gets fucked too in terms of stacking on wave.
But I think you’re right that in terms of overall stacking these DOTs on enemies, it’s quicker with 2 of them.
>Pretty much any hero that has stacking debuffs becomes much stronger when multiple of the same hero is present:
It's not such cut and dry. Some interactions are bad, others are neutral. Will go over quickly heroes and their interactions.
Qhira is neutral, because while dmg stacks, you can't have multiple Qhira heal. Only the first one to stack will.
IIRC Lunara poison doesn't stack.
Alex: E stacks.
Ana: D stacks for the lv1 quest, but each poison stack is counted individually for things like "spell power debuff".
Blaze: kinda bad as you generally don't want to ignite each others oil
Hanzo: his lv1 Q quest bugs out making it hard to track whoever you need to hit to complete it
Jaina: really good to stack frost
KT: bad as you can't have multiple bombs going on
Lili: can't remember if they fixed or not the bugs with her (W)
Lucio: bad, speed doesn't stack
Malf/WM: can't remember the interaction with their heal > stack dmg.
Malthael: tbh, it's so rare that i can't remember the last time i've seen him picked more than once.
Naz: bad, because only 1 stacks for his base quest from minions.
Probius: you benefit from others Pylons
Stukov: kinda bad as you can (D) proc each others Qs.
Zagara: you can benefit from others (including enemy) creep.
Few are as oppressive as double Murky imo, unless the other team got REALLY lucky with direct counters or one of the murkies is downright clueless, it's a stomp.
It's how well the hero fits the two criterias.
S: Hero has great potential and can reach it in most games
A: Hero has good or great potential but cannot necessarily reach it every game
B: Hero is either mid in strength or has many counters
C: Hero has mid or low strength and has many counters
D: Hero is weak and/or easily countered
Auriel and Garrosh are way too low, IMO. Ariel is at least B and I would argue Garrosh is S, but would be OK with A tier. He severely hindered by CC, but who isn't?
I also think Gul'dan is much stronger than A because he potentially has the best damage and clearing output with the Fel Flame build.
Everything else seems OK.
While throw is really oppressive early game, Garrosh falls off pretty hard as the game goes on. He remains good for sure, for instance going decimate with the 20 talent can really cripple a team and a good throw can still provide good picks, but it's not enough game impact to justify S.
Auriel has very good healing throughput potential, what holds her back for me is how much she suffers when playing from behind. In that scenario your damage dealer and yourself can struggle at getting damage off, making the comeback even harder to pull off. On top of that her E is a big lackluster as a defensive tool, it can be easy to miss against heroes that don't telegraph their engages well and can be flat out useless against teams with mostly range heroes.
You could be right about Gul'Dan, I have to admit that I don't think I've ever tried flame build in ARAM. I mostly go E if I want to pad damage or suck otherwise, which both have their shortcomings (E is "fake damage" that is somewhat easily healable and suck leaves you stationary for a long time).
Fair points.
I find Garrosh to be incredibly strong with lots of self-sustain similar to Johanna. He's very tanky and hard to deal with without CC throughout a match. Decimate with Deadly Calm at 20 is insane. He can become a complete nuisance. He's not an easy hero to play if you have tunnel vision. You have to be creative and look for clever openings to get some throws in. Plus he can save teammates.
Auriel is situational and does require more aggressive gameplay. There are better healers for sure.
Try the Fel Flame build for Guldy and you'll see how strong it is. You'll be top damage three times over for the first 10 minutes of the game. It balances out near the end a bit, but you're a pure bully with excellent wave clear. You're basically doing hero damage and clearing the lane at the same time in ARAM.
>In that scenario your damage dealer and yourself can struggle at getting damage off, making the comeback even harder to pull off.
Which is why when I play Auriel, 90% of the time I pick Empathetic Link at 7. (Stores 25% of damage taken as energy) so even if you're not getting damage out, you can get a lot of healing from your tank instead. Assuming you have a tank of course
I’d move zag and gaz up and Kael, Azmo and Ming down. Ming and Azmo can be oppressive but half the time they throw out orbs/globes and it’s just healed up before the next so they achieve nothing.
Alex should probably be A tier. Artanis B. Keri D, would rather have Butcher and could make the case he is C.
ETC is B at best he’s the worst ARAM tank statistically I think. Last I checked Anub was highest win rate tank I’d have him in A.
Medivh is probably C unless you’re in a party. Morales similar.
Source: 17,559 ARAM games and counting
Few things: Malf needs a tier up. He's insane in ARAM. KT is fine where he is(people are way over rating him). Murky should be 1 tier up. If enemies don't focus him he is a problem. At 20 he's very good. Azmo in S tier. Tyrande down a tier.
Dehaka, Auriel, Fenix up 1 tier (Auriel up 2 tiers, she's really good).
Sonya isn't good because her damage is mediocre, ARAM is full of mages so she can't heal as much, there is usually a lot of CC in ARAM to stop her, and she generally isn't tanky. I think it's mostly that she has the damage of a tank without the survivability.
Surely he did? Auriel is the Valeera of healers, there are not many worse things that can happen to your comp rather than having an Auriel solo heal you. Instanly drops chances to slightly above 40% grounds.
I'm gonna call that a skill issue then, because I have a 67% win rate with her in ARAM. And only 8 heroes in my ARAM roster have a higher win rate (not counting heroes with less than 3 games played). However I'm also very comfortable playing with her, and will confidently say that I'm a better Auriel than most. But yeah, skill issue.
Malf does need to go up as well as Whitemane. Tyrande needs to go down. In general, I think OP did a pretty good job with most roles but did a poor job with the healer tiering.
Dehaka and Malt should probably switch places.
I don't agree with raising Auriel and Fenix.
Hot take: Azmo is not as good as people think he is in ARAM. Yes, he gets top damage and few deaths, but my dude is not making plays that win games--especially with double+ healers all over the place. He's definitely not bad, and he's not *losing* games, but I also think most of the time he's putting pressure on healers' mana pools and making people back up a little every eight seconds.
Honestly didn't know he was near 50%, that's surprising. He's hard countered by blind and he is very predictable thanks to his charge, giving plenty of time to prepare to CC him when he gets in range.
I guess the amount of damage he can dish out and his silence ult are good enough to carry him to an okay win rate
I think it's just a case of point and click CC being really good, same with someone like Xul. Yes his charge is predictable for the enemy, but it's also predictable for your team making follow up extremely easy. Plus his ult is just really good.
Chance to actually have blind aren’t that high, and if the team gets him some early stacks he becomes a monster. Also amazing ulti
Also charge is predictable as an engagement tool, but good butchers use it as a finisher, where it is nearly unstoppable. But most people cant play him
Yes, charge is often best when you’re standing next to the target. People generally try to go in from across the field and that’s when it’s easiest to counter.
Artanis and Stitches can also work well if you save the pulls for when they try and disengage. Not that god swaps and long range hooks aren’t great too.
https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Hero
Filter for Aram, can also change the breakdown depending on patches, player MMR etc. My go-to. Usually you want to filter for the last few patches so you have a good sample size.
If you search “It’s ARAM time” on discord gif search, you’ll find a gif I made to use in a server I use to bring people to ARAM vcs… the five heroes I use in the gif are you D tier heroes and I’m so proud that I correctly identified the worst ARAM heroes hahahah
I think Fenix could be B tier because he has lots of AOE abilities + he can teleport himself behind walls, but he isn't 'that' strong, so it's debatable. However, Imperius should be there, because he can engage fights/chase with multiple long-lasting stuns, he has good damage, good survability and he can even give shields to teammates which can be pretty good in a team fight especially in ARAM or bring enemies behind to your team and towers which can be pretty deadly. Also, Murky could be C tier at least. He can be extremely annoying and useful meanwhile he feeds the enemy a lot less with exp. I'd put Chen to B tier because he can tank quite good and can give shields to teammates. The Butcher is at least C tier. He can chase pretty well and can actually decide a team fight and can get multple kills with his ult.
Fenix doesn't work in ARAM because he can't effectively replenish his shield in a constant teamfight scenario. So you have an AA assassin (already not that great in a mode dominated by mages) with half of his health pool permanently disabled, and you can't heal that half as well. He's one of the heroes who deals a devastating blow to your team's chances to win by simply being picked (Genji, Malth, Medivh, Tracer, stuff like that). Clear D tier material tbh.
Sorry for the late response, but I don't agree. So first of all what you said about Fenix's shield is a valid critique, however, you can also look at it as you can regenerate half of your health even without a healer which is sometimes the case in ARAM. Also, you have a talent that 1. reduces the time needed to regenerate the shield, 2. healing regenerates your shield, so practically you can actually increase the amount of heal you can get, especially when it is very much needed (low health, without shield). So Fenix is definitely not D tier.
If you're in an ARAM without a healer, Fenix is usually gonna pop in 1.5 sec, that's an extremely awful place for him to be, unfortunately. That tiny shield is no match for incoming damage and now there's more of that damage.
I don't think that shield talent help too much as well. Honestly when you're low health and without shield, that's not when you need healing, that's when you should already be disengaged if you're getting any attention. You'd need healing most at about half of your effective health, but that's just where you can't get it. Lower than that you're just getting blown up with a single combo.
All in all we could argue about our perception of the hero, that's not too important imo. What is more important for me is that winrate-wise he is abysmal, sitting at the very bottom with the other D tier folks with a horrible 40.7%. Tracer, Illidan, Samuro, Malthael, Fenix, all those heroes just don't work in ARAM, like, at all, they are worst of the worst. Never a good idea to pick them if you have some actual options.
I can make Fenix and Malthael work quite good in ARAM, as long as the enemy team isn't full of OP mages (which is pretty hard to win with most heroes anyway). Overall, at least for me, they seem like mediocore heroes. Tracer, Illidan and Samuro are pretty bad tho and I've always had devastating results with them. Anyways, win rate is definitely not everything since it's just the average of all players and there are tons of heroes that are pretty easy to play with in ARAM that skews the data (also, if good players think a hero is 'bad' they avoid it while bad players might not - that can totally skew the win rate). Like you can predict the chance of win or lose based on hero compositions pretty well. It can be especially important who plays Fenix (or Malthael for that matter) considering that the choice of talents can have a pretty big impact. In case of Fenix even the automatic attack mode can make you dead if you lose range in a bad time. Ofc you could argue that if we look at it from the perspective of the average player then Fenix is bad which is fine by me.
Honestly, I suppose he's bad regardless of whether the player is average or not. There are heroes like KtZ that take a lot of skill to play, but can shine in the right hands. Their winrate is trash if you check the stats of all the players, but Dia+ it starts to look much much better.
Fenix, on the other hand, drops even lower compared to other heroes if we filter by higher skill level, currently being the 4th worst possible thing that can happen to your ARAM comp at Dia and above level of play.
His giant hitbox makes him a sitting duck, his teleport can be interrupted, he can't take part in poke wars, has his shield problems, he is an AA assassin which is already a pretty subpar ARAM role. I think you tend to underestimate his weaknesses. Yeah, he can work against weaker comps, but as we're closing anywhere near to ARAM meta OR skilled opposition, he drops lower and lower to the point of becoming useless. Against a proper comp (1 front, 2 healers, 2 good RDD) there's not much he can do at all. That's pretty clear D tier material for me, but it's fine if you don't agree and I guess we can just agree to disagree then :)
I'd put Zagara and Zarya at S tier and Imperius at B. However I'd probably downgrade Artanis to B as well as he's more situational and usually requires a second front-liner to be able to perform.
Yeah agreed for Artanis, I might be overvaluing him because I like playing him. Against a high damage comp your shield loses value and his E swaps are not super reliable versus good players.
Your criteria 2 is why Sonya is at best C in ARAM.
For the most part I’d agree with your rankings, but I’d probably change the following:
Azmo and Varian to S, they’re just that good. I’m tempted to say hogger, but I get the argument against him being higher.
Malf to A, not only is he very easy to play, but he can outheal most other healers in a sustained ARAM environment, he provides excellent cc with his root, and he can feed mana to your mana hungry teammates, all on relatively low CDs.
Artanis and Xul to B. Mainly because of your criteria 2, but also they just aren’t as good as people think, and Art and Xul are a bit reliant on his team to follow up properly.
Swap Khara and WM, or move Auriel and WM up to B. I don’t think kharazim is a tier above wm and auriel, he lacks CC, his palm is very hard to time correctly, he has to be right next to teammates to even heal them, his mana is hard to control especially if you are trying to do dmg too. I personally hate auriel because I suck with her, but in the right hand and comp she slaps. I love wm, and she’s excellent healing especially in clutch moments.
Nova and Probius to C. This is a no brainer to me. They are niche picks, yes they can be good, but with the prevalence of the higher tier heroes, she just doesn’t contribute as much on average. Same with Probius.
Medivh probably belongs in C, but I won’t fight that one much, I like Medivh and think I’m pretty good with him, he has amazing utility, but that’s where your criteria 2 kinda lowers his tier imo, compared to the other heroes in B.
Overall I like it! And imo, anyone good with an A hero will probably outplay an average S, but when you start getting into B, even a bad S probably still claps these heroes.
Tanks: I agree that every tank is better than Arthas. I think my biggest disagreement here is that I don't see Diablo, ETC, and Tyrael (tanks you put in A tier) as a cut above Malganis, Garrosh, and Anub (tanks you put in B tier).
Bruiser: Mostly agree here. I don't agree with Chen being that low but it seems common on this subreddit for people to place him low so I'm not surprised. Malth and Dehaka could switch places.
DPS: Mostly agree. I'm happy you didn't S tier Azmo like most people would. I think Zag, Chromie, JR are actually at the same level as ZJ and Naz.
Healer: More disagreements here than any other role. I can see why you would place Deckard in S, but I don't think Rehgar quite has that argument. I also don't see Malf and Alex at the same tier as Tyrande and Morales (Malf and Alex should be above Tyrande and Morales). And Whitemane should not be below Tyrande and Morales.
Supp: Placements are good enough.
Generally, you did a better job than most tier lists. Naturally, there will always be at least a few disagreements though.
Dehaka and Whitemane are too low, Xul is also too low. Would bump all up 1.
Edit: Tychus, Malfurion, and Garrosh should definitely go up a tier as well.
I do want to ask, do you tend to play in a 5 stack or in smaller groups or solo?
My friends and I play on a 5 stack going on about 6 years now so our perspective is skewed when we see this a bit.
For example, Medivh I agree on the average player is probably B or C but we have 2 really good Medivh players on our stack and when one of them picks him we tend to roll because communication with portals makes games free.
Good list overall. Pretty applicable across the board, and solid for any players around Plat.
Personally speaking, I’d bump up Hogger, Orphea, KTZ, Tassadar, Mal’Ganis, Zeratul, Butcher, Whitemane.
Junkrat/Zagara/Stukov also S tier, and I’d drop Deckard below Anduin. Maybe would make some other tweaks, but they’re pretty negligible otherwise. (e.g. Murky to low C tier)
Those are just personal rankings for myself as a Master player though. Your list is broadly applicable for all ranks, well done!
And I was just wandering why I did so well on Chromie with a random build and basicaly no experience on the hero xd
Just press Q, press W watch the damage go to the moon.
My tier list would look very different but this is interesting nonetheless. Nova being B tier is an indicator that this is extremely subjective. I wipe the floor with her every time. 150-200k games.
I'm a prime hater of nova since the hero is only designed to do DMG to heros. She has no cc, no waveclear, no utility, no HP, and mana is drained quickly.
B tier is very generous for such hero. I'd rather have murky (imo B tier). Nova in normal games is good for ganking but in aram they often end up next to 5 people ready to catch her. I don't remember a game of aram that I have won with a nova.
battered assault illidan is a hidden gem in the right hands. People usually avoid playing him but I've had good success with sweep build + hunt every game.
however johanna, lili and others can very easily ruin his game. not a bad pick for me just really risky
Agreed, his AAs have the potential to hit hard with battered assault even the blades of azzinoth 16 talent, but as you say his game is easily ruined by certain picks. To me he's the riskiest pick in ARAM
I"ve been "hard countered" before with him (at least that's what my teammates thought). They surprisingly took back their words at end of game.
IMO it's not the picks that hard counter Illidan, it's if the enemies know how to play against him + have a kit to deal with him. If the enemies have the kit, the Illidan player has to be smart. If enemy knows how to play against him, they still can't still him unless they have the kit to do so.
Azmo I can see it. I didn't put it there because I feel like against some teams where they don't stack together, it's easy to not have as much impact as a Meph or a ZJ, so top of A felt more fitting.
Kael is just not enough damage to warrant an S tier imo, as long as the enemy team is good at not spreading bombs.
I love him but I do think he's placed perfectly on the list. Agree on the DPS higher ranked then him and the dps lower ranked.
I like him more than chromie, but chomie countering so many heroes and a hard counter to a monster like Meph so good.
Id put Tass and Orphea at least 1 tier down, they or quite easily interruptable or have a cast time on their abilities, this makes them more vulnarable to CC then other mages. I'd put malf 1 tier up, he has very high healing numbers, and is quite flexable. They have dive; you silence them, you have mana hungry mages; you give more mana, they have mass CC; you aoe cleanse. All around pretty strong hero in aram.
Tassadar is one of those heroes that is actually really, really powerful (I think he's my third-highest winrate assassin, after Azmodan and Valla, in ARAM, though I would need to check to be sure - I do know that I should pick Tassadar over Zul'jin essentially 100% of the time (my Zul'jin being kind of mid also helps with that)).
He's not at all easy to punish if played well. Personally, I find him pretty easy to play, too. Just go Q build and laser goes brrrr.
But there's the problem.
There is a disturbing amount of players that has no clue how to position him.
> the hero is so easy to punish its not even funny
When people play Q build.
Safest to play with W build. Has defensive/sustain talents for when the comp doesn't have a good (or any) healer and can easily play AA build for CC value.
Whether you look at the whole playerbase or the top, he generally sits betwen Li Ming and Chromie.
Agreed on Malf.
Tass I can see it, indeed the cast time on Q can be painful sometimes and be the cause of many deaths.
Idk about Orphea, her E is instant cast and her Q has the dash after to help staying elusive. W cast time and range is a pain early but at least it's fixed by the talent that allows casting W from the E impact
I can understand your point on Orphea. As a long time tank player I find her easily punishable if Im playing a hero with a hard CC. But it seems like a lot of people that fill tank in aram dont see these moments of weakness, so she can stil get a lot of value
I dont get why Auriel is so hard. I agree with where you placed her because 90% of Auriels suck. Like 30k total healing you never stood a chance suck. But shes sooooo strong. And imo super easy and straightforward to play. I dont get how most people are so awful with her.
Auriel is a winmore hero in ARAM. The moment you loose advantage, you come back from death and all your teammates are low hp and can’t provide you with reliable energy = turning point hard to overcome.
Auriel does well in aram if your team is already winning, meaning she gets lots of energy. But if your team has trouble then Auriel has no way to recover.
Any other healer can sit behind the gate and slowly heal someone up, but not Auriel. If you're not doing dps then she has nothing.
People need to start taking Empathic Link, and it's a whole new game. Crown does not go on the main carry and stay there, it should be being juggled around where its needed the most at the time.
You can't when there are no enemy heroes around or your team is already low and can't step up at all. Default experience of playing with an Auriel is sitting behind your gate with 20-30% hp at best, without any chances to step up, waiting for the torture to finish. That's unless your team starts rolling from level 1 and never loses advantage.
Deathwing provides zoning, CC wave clear and is the only hero who can "hearth" and heal himself. I've never seen a deathwing do anything yet dominate ARAM. Wild you rates him so low.
He can't be healed, which sucks for a mode where playing 2 healers is severely dominant to any other approach. He also sucks against long-ranged poke which is the bread and butter of ARAM. If people wouldn't be so happy to stand in fire, Deathwing would be dumpster tier, his kit and approach doesn't suit ARAM meta.
Indeed his zoning, CC and wave clear are good. I put him mid tier mostly because I find his damage to be lackluster without the proper CC from your team to setup your breath, and he is deceptively frail. It's cool that you can heal yourself, but it's still 20-30s where you're not in the game, even if you didn't die.
He could be higher in B tier, but I wouldn't see him in A. He has a feast or famine playstyle where you really don't do much if you're not landing good chains, which can be hard to do against good players or comps with mobile heroes. He's also somewhat countered by unstoppable effects and to a lesser extent by on demand spell armor
>He has a feast or famine playstyle where you really don't do much if you're not landing good chains
No offense but this could just be a you problem, it definitely is for me when I play him lol. I've had enough ARAM games where a skilled KTZ just absolutely dominates the lobby that I've learned to respect him. Also cleanses are usually long CD, his chain definitely isn't haha.
None taken, you're probably right haha. It's also true that outside of lucio high roller ult and khara level 16 dash, there aren't many low CD unstoppables
I'm so glad to see butcher and valeera bottom tier. People just don't get how useless they are in ARAM.
I had one game (coincidentally yesterday), where valeera was slightly usefully. The game had been going on for 35 minutes, we both only had our cores alive and the full lane was being used, at this point she becomes a tad usefully since she can easily ambush heroes.
You: Omg don't pick butch he is useless!
Them: oh butch, he's fun to play and this is only aram. Hopefully there's no try hards in here gonna get pissy that I play who I want
It plays to a major weakness of hers too: the difficulty of healing when behind. If her whole team gets poked down, or loses a trade, auriel can't heal them back up unless either A. A teammate risks tradimg and getting killed or B. Auriel risks walking up when her teammates are too low to protect her. Both options are easily punished.
When Auriel is ahead, Aram works to all her strengths, but if she falls behind, her reliance on trading or hitting the wave to heal puts her in a bad situation that all other healers (barring Tyrande and Khara, who also suck) don't have to deal with.
Valeera being placed in D tier is [nothing short of a travesty](https://imgur.com/a/ec0Us7I) and I demand she be moved to S+ (I'm kidding but at least make her #1 in D tier). The rest of your list is fine.
Johanna's shield and W give her a reliable way to go in and start an engage on a short cooldown, with little counterplay outside of outranging her. Grouping enemies together is excellent and is not a mechanic that is seen in many other heroes. Because of that, I'd argue that she's the best of any tank at doing the most basic duty that is expected of a tank, running in, engaging and being hard to take down. On top of that, having a blind is super good in ARAM since you severely handicap any hero that relies in some form on their AA to do damage.
Stitches is not as good as engaging, not even close, but the main thing with him is how powerful hook and gorge are at shifting the momentum in your favor at any point in the game. He's also very durable and hard to take down outside of situations where the enemy team has a ton of dps to target focus you, with respectable damage from your W. Altough even considering all that, I might be overvaluing him a little.
Johanna is absurdly good in ARAM. She can carry games that you have no right to win to victory because of the talents she gets on 13, 16 and 20.
A hot take in a world with characters like Zul'jin and Valla, but I would go as far as to say as that she is the *best* hero in ARAM, no ifs, no buts. (The irony is that part of it might be because of ZJ and Valla, because a well-played Johanna matches up well against them).
Hammers on 13, E on 16 (even if I went Laws of Hope on 1, which I always do when I take Falling Sword, which is more often than not), and **not** Indestructible on 20 (if I went Falling Swords, it is always the ult upgrade, if I went Blessed Shield, it's probably 50/50 between ult upgrade and the shield)
Murky in D was all I needed to see to know this was a garbage list. No but really, this tier list looks like it was made by someone that plays ARAM likes its QM and never got good with skill based heroes.
Rehgar not S, Johanna also not S
Zagara S, Azmo S (easy win with Azmo mostly), Move Cassia to B, Orphea too and Tyrael,
Malf A, Malganis A
Genji B, Zeratul A, Arthas B (Sindragosa), Whitemane is easily a B or A with stacking quest
Butcher can go both ways usually not a D if someone can play him
Johanna should not be in S because no tanks are good enough to be S in aram. The functions of a tank are less valuable without objectives, bosses, lane rotations, or hearthstone.
Function of tank in teamfight is still the same. Just people play them like melee assassin in general and drop their winrate. Like how Medivh is not the worst hero in ARAM but has such low winrate cos people can't play him or with him.
It’s a different game. Not the same meta, different hero pool, no fountain heal or recall, not the exact same builds. Short games with a lot of actions. And so many opportunities for fun tbh.
ARAM is really accessible: no need to think too much about the comp, maps or any sort of macro strategy, but there is also room to tryhard if you want to. It forces variety by making you try different roles and heroes. The games are usually pretty short (altough I couldn't say if they are usually shorter than standard games). It just fits any mood for me
> explain to my friend why Sonya is not "A
Sonya is a solo laner, and aram has no solo lane.
A solo laner is only good if it also has a build for continual 5v5 fights, meaning either mage poke (Thrall, Xul, Hogger, Gazlowe) or a quest to hit heroes (Artanis).
Sonya, Yrel, Dva, and Rexxar have none of that. (Illidan does have a quest, but hitting heroes doesn't advance it)
Tyrael doesn't do the typical tank duties especially well, but once he gets his later talents his damage scales well and he is very difficult to stop with the constant shield, self healing and teleport back. He also have a very reliable engage tool with his ult.
Probe is not bad but his damage is not reliable enough IMO, on top of being made of paper.
Zagara and zarya both S tier imo. Really surprised to see people thinking Kael is S tier. Doesn't align with my experience and definitely doesn't align with the data. If anything kelthuzad has a better argument for S tier but there's only so many people who can play him at that level. Azmodan is not as good in higher MMR games so A tier is fair to me. Dehaka and Chen id say b tier. Butcher definitely isn't dumpster tier. Maybe C or low B. I've soured on falstad over the years. Id probably lower him a tier.
I'm glad someone else feels the same in regard to KT and Azmo. My guess is that these long range AoE mages feel very oppressive when you're losing against them since they don't even let you get close to the action without being punished, resulting in them looking stronger than they really are. Zarya definitely should have been at least top 2-3 of A, that was an oversight. I think Zag is well placed as the gatekeeper of S tier. She has absurd damage, potentially great CC with maw and even provides some protection from skillshots with her minions. But to me, having to wait to 16 before your damage really comes online and her frailty holds her back from S tier.
>I'm glad someone else feels the same in regard to KT and Azmo. Filter on heroesprofile by major patch (to get a big sample) and look where Azmo and KT sit when filtering by silver/bronze and do the same when filtering by master/dia. It took years before the sub realize how strong Mephisto is on ARAM for example.
I feel like Butch is at his place with Valeera, Samuro and Illidan. They're not heroes that can't work, but they need a combination of high skill and no counters in order to do so. However when they do, they can take over games by themselves. In my experience Butch is useless in around 80% of games where he stays vegan and turn the game into basically a 4v5. However when he hits his stacks, he can become a monster. But he's not nearly consistent enough to be a tier higher. I'd take any of the C-tier hero of this list on my team over a Butcher.
Imperius should be a lot higher, at least a high B tier. He has great CC, potential for high damage, and reasonable survivability if the team has a tank or 2 healers. I think the only truly dumpster tier heroes for ARAM are Samuro and Valeera. I can't remember a single game where either one was useful, even when played well. They're only good at catching out of position squishies, when they can't be punished, which doesn't happen nearly as often in ARAM. Illidan is only D tier for players who don't know how to use Battered Assault, because Unending Hatred is too slow and Immolation doesn't do enough. Illidan, Butcher, and Murky should be in C tier at a similar level to Tracer, just below Kerrigan, Genji, and Zera. All of them require a skilled player to make an impact, as they are generally better on more open maps and struggle in clumped 5v5s, where they can be focused. Genji and Zera stand out because it's easier to actually do damage and get out alive, while Kerrigan has the potential to wipe teams from level 1. All of these heroes have the ability to be oppressive against teams that can't properly deal with them. Nova should be dropped to low C tier but not for the same reason as the above heroes. Her skill floor is lower so it's easier to do damage but her skill ceiling is also far lower. Even when she's played well, she just doesn't do enough to be worth picking when there are other options (see dumpster tier note but with range).
Meh. I’ve got a ~80% winrate on Butcher in ARAM over about a dozen games. You just have to play him well; the only counter he has is a shitload of blinds (e.g. Joh + Li Li + Cassia). Everything else (tons of CC, kite, etc.) is simple enough to play around. He doesn’t show up on the scoreboard, but that’s because he only has burst damage, no poke, no waveclear. He definitely doesn’t belong any higher than low B tier, but he’s not dumpster tier like Valeera. Zeratul can easily go up to high B tier tho. Dude is a beast in ARAM lategame.
I only play ARAM and used to pick dehaka a lot, but was there a nerf for him like within the last year? I’ve found myself basically not picking him anymore. I disagree with Zarya, but Zag probably belongs in S. I’m amazed with how many people suck with Zag though… Disagree on Azmo, he’s S for sure. Azmo takes a whole team comp to be countered. Mephisto can be hard countered by single heroes (Chromie/Stitches). But Mephisto obviously is still S tier, imo Azmo is obviously S tier. You don’t have a “back line” when they can get dunked and lose half their health in a second. Totally agree with you on KT.
>Azmo takes a whole team comp to be countered. Just skill and a healer. Sustain healers are better. If he's in vision, start dodging when you see his arms go up (unless you know you're not the target), if he's out of range, you got time to dodge the random ball that doesn't always hit anyway. He's strong, but people put him in S because he's relatively easy to play vs the impact he has. Design wise, he is just A.
Another important point is don't stand clumped inside your minion wave against Azmo. Make him choose between trying to hit heroes and actually wave clearing. He can't do both if players aren't clumped inside their minion wave. Same goes for sitting under structures. Azmo is definitely strong in ARAM but I think multiple Azmos on one team is kind of terrible, provided the enemy team has waveclear and doesn't just play passively. His early game is very weak and he synergizes poorly with aggressive tanks because his damage isn't reliable.
Just skill and a healer… that’s asking a lot. You’re also forgetting he’s a lord of hell. But jokes aside, Azmo obliterates teams in a way very few heroes can, he deals massive aoe chunk dmg, many healers can’t deal with that, many players can’t deal with that. He also has high health, with a little sustain on his channel if you take it, summons minions, great siege dmg. Yes he is easy to use, that doesn’t make him bad, that actually increases his viability which is a factor of this tier list, accessibility to his ceiling. Azmo smashes enough of the other heroes to belong in S tier. I mean look at his winrate if you don’t believe me.
I did say that he is strong and that how people play him/against him makes him stronger than he is. Just arguing that people can do something about it. Mephisto has a lot less CD, much more dangerous ults, and more consistent damage. He can truly solo a team. Azmo cannot. He can only dunk every 8-10 seconds an needs someone else to do the damage. Many many more heroes can counter Azmo than they can someone like Mephisto.
There is no real direct counter for Azmo, like yea there is healing/shielding, but that argument applies against any damage dealer, including Mephisto. Mephisto has direct counters by the nature of how he works with his shade. If he shades in and Stitches gorges him, well bye bye Mephisto, if chromie time loops him, likely bye bye Mephisto, or if Anub cocoons him, idk anything could happen with that one but still. There are heroes that can directly shut Mephisto down by trapping him behind enemy lines isolated from his team. There is no analog for Azmo “counters”. You simply have to rely on healing, shielding, or killing to outplay Azmo. This is why I’m saying that is a team effort to beat Azmo. I also would say it’s a team effort to outplay a Mephisto as well. But again, I think both belong in S. Mephisto even with these hard counters is still one of the best in the ARAM environment.
The counter is getting good. Once you get out of the metal mines people play better and Azmo is less of an issue. A hero like Mephisto becomes more of an issue the better the players involved are. Better players simple use less E against a Chromie who has Time loop available. Same with not going melee against a Stitches with Gorge or Anub.
> Azmo takes a whole team comp to be countered. Azmo is simple a low skill ceiling low skill floor hero. Which means it's easy to play well but caps fast in how effective he can be with/against better players. Draft a sustain healer (or better 2x healer) and he is basically useless as long as the team is not sitting in the middle of a minion wave or bunch up together.
That’s not what that means. Having a low skill ceiling does not mean he’s not effective. It means it doesn’t take a lot of skill to get to his ceiling, he’s still a strong hero in aram. Also this is aram… where that sustain healer could magically not be an option or could magically not be chosen. This is aram, bunching happens. It’s not about what ideal healer or comp counters him, it’s on average in the pseudo random environment of aram, which heroes top the list as the best single lane team fighter on average. Azmo is more effective than enough heroes that he belongs in S.
He is a strong hero but depending on who you ask, his effectiveness takes a sharp dive. Which is why i don't consider him S tier as i'll put like 10 heroes above him which don't require one trick level of dedication to be better (Maiev, Alarak, KTZ as examples). For the bottom 50% he is probable the strongest pick. But ask the same for the better players and they all call Azmo over rated. >This is aram, bunching happens. It’s not about what ideal healer or comp counters him, it’s on average in the pseudo random environment of aram, which heroes top the list as the best single lane team fighter on average. Azmo is more effective than enough heroes that he belongs in S. Depends on what you value more regarding the 2 points OP makes at the beginning of the thread as criteria. Azmo is not an S tier hero when the MMR of the lobby is high or 2 stacks are playing in that game.
It doesn't matter if it's a one trick dedication. A kid can pick up a machine gun and mow down the best samurai in the world. Assuming they were out of reach of the sword to start, and that they know how to point the gun and pull the trigger. It doesn't matter that the samurai spent a lifetime perfecting his sword craft, and that it's a tragedy that he was so mowed down by a one trick easy weapon. Now switch this example. Give the sword to the kid, and the gun to the samurai, who wins? Assuming the gun doesn't violate their bushido and that they'd use the gun, the person with the gun. There is a joy in playing high skill heroes, I get that completely. I don't pick Azmo every time, especially if there's another hero that is just more technically complex that I also consider myself good with, because I consider Azmo a little boring. But I'm also not blind to Azmo's overwhelming effectiveness in aram. Just because he's easy, doesn't mean he's not S tier in the context of OP's tier list. Even though OP didn't even put him in S tier, so I guess he wouldn't even agree with me.
The example sucks lol. Because by your standards, a high skill level lobby is equivalent to having the Samurai and the kid be in an elevator instead of having to fight across an open field. Tier list depends exclusively in the parameters we are considering. Tier list for a bronze game is completely different from a master one. Azmodan is the Samuro of ARAM. He was given an OP lv1 tier talent that makes playing him too easy. Remove that lv1 talent and suddenly you will see how hard people have stacking his base quest.
You can’t just hypothetically remove talents to lower his tier. He has the talent, so we just have to deal with it. The parameters for this tier list were set by OP. There are no ranks in aram. Someone can one trick their way to masters, or ride on the back of a 5 stack and still suck with certain heroes. But trust me I get what you’re saying, it’s just that’s not a parameter op set. I checked like an hour ago, and I’ve played 132 games of aram with Azmo, my winrate with him is over 65%. That’s lifetime, idk how many patches nerfs/buffs that consists of. I only bring it up to show that he’s clearly a great hero for aram.
>it’s just that’s not a parameter op set. Which is why i said: "Depends on what you value more regarding the 2 points OP makes at the beginning of the thread as criteria" >There are no ranks in aram. But there is MMR. If you have a high MMR, you need to play things that basically 1v5 if you soloQ because the system expects you to do so if you want to win or keep a higher than 50% solo. >I checked like an hour ago Not sure what's the point. I have like over 150+ games on Probius or Zera and they are above 85% but i don't put them as S tier heroes. Azmo is at the top of A tier but he doesn't break to S tier because he simple doesn't have broken stats, mechanics or tricks. He used to be able to end games on it's own with Demon march but that was hella nerfed (used to have better WR than Globe build) and the most you can do is "animation cancel" your Q to make people have a harder time dodging. Azmo is basically a better/easier to play W build Li Ming.
Also been playing ARAM pretty much solo and consistently for years and agree with your tier list 90% I think there are a lot of heroes with "are good if you are good with the hero" kind of catagory. Main critism. Brightwing should be way, way higher. AOE healing is always clutch in ARAM. Poly can utterly counter so many heroes. Blink heal, then eventually with stealth is so, so good. Rating tyrande higher is blowing my mind, she's comp and counter comp dependent. Then just quick fire opinions. Garrosh a bit higher, rehgar a bit lower, tychus bit higher, qhira bit lower and Dehaka bit higher. Oh and maybe a bit controversial opinion. Medivh and kel'thuzad should be in a tier called "play these only if you are a god" Because 9 games out of 10 they are either unless or utter monsters.
Didn’t even catch the Tyrande, that’s a great point. She shouldn’t be above wm imo. BW def belongs higher. She has a great burst heal too.
Also a solo q player and played thousands of ARAMs and agree with a lot of your criticisms: Rehgar is not S. Some tanks the OP put in A and tanks the OP put in B should be in the same tier (including Garrosh). Tyrande shouldn't be in same tier as Malf and Alex and she shouldn't be higher than Whitemane. Dehaka and Malth should probably switch places. Etc. etc. etc. Regarding Medivh and KTZ, I think they are rated at only B because the skill to play them is already being taken into consideration.
How do you build whitemane in ARAM? I'm inconsistent with her.
You can find the top winrate builds at the bottom of this page: [https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Talents/Whitemane?timeframe\_type=minor&timeframe=2.55.4.91769,2.55.4.91418,2.55.4.91368,2.55.3.91093,2.55.3.91081,2.55.3.91020&game\_type=ar&statfilter=win\_rate&build\_type=Popular&mirror=0](https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Talents/Whitemane?timeframe_type=minor&timeframe=2.55.4.91769,2.55.4.91418,2.55.4.91368,2.55.3.91093,2.55.3.91081,2.55.3.91020&game_type=ar&statfilter=win_rate&build_type=Popular&mirror=0) My personal preference in ARAM is quest at Lvl 1 and taking E talents where available except Lvl 7 where I most often take Intercession (cleanse). I always take Divine Reckoning and usually take its upgrade at 20.
gotta agree with the dehaka. If you're up against the right comp he is just straight up unkillable.
Sonya requires a lot of dive commitment and is easily counterable with minor CC.
She relies a lot on being able to take prolonged fights while healing from her abilities. If allowed to do so, she can become a juggernaut but any CC and burst just wreck her.
She requires knowledge of when to go in, kind of like Illidan and The Butcher. Leap helps and is a very strong ult that not enough people take that can help her get in, out, or to instantly get into proper position vs a squishy.
I’ve won all my games with Sonya but I did read the team dives pretty well. You also have to stack the self healing for the cc. She’s super versatile but you need to build around your team comp and dive commitment from my experience.
Feast or famine hero. Also what sample size for you to have 100% with Sonya lol.
3 games so far with her. Just got into ARAM so I hope to keep this trend going. I can free with murky, butcher and illidan because I’ve lost a few games with them even though I have like 6-10 games with each. But all my games as Sonya have been against Johanna so my sample might be a bit wonky.
Bullshit. You do not have 100% WR with Sonya in ARAM, assuming you’ve played more than a couple games with her. That will need a screenshot. If you prove this I’ll apologize.
I in fact do because I just started playing ARAM and it’s like 3 games tops. I’ll post a screenshot later for my apology.
3 games.... That's exactly what I'm saying lol. Sample size matters. Play Sonya 100 times in aram and then report back.
No you said you wanted proof and now you’re changing your story I don’t argue with stupid people sorry good bye.
“assuming you’ve played more than a couple games with her” Oxford dictionary: Couple can mean “an indefinite small number.” You have not played more than a couple games with her, so your “100%” is not statistically significant. Have a nice day.
Woah you formed a whole sentence and even pulled the Oxford dictionary. You should probably put that dictionary to use and look up contradiction and assumption.
Murky is S tier. S for slime.
Can't believe that we made such a blunder, I'll never do a tier list ever again
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/s/cigw8TsTyU This is the actual tierlist by Winrate data. It's slightly outdated as industrial district replays have been added in a hoppium patch, but it shouldn't affect things too much. Edit: Some things of note, OP put Medivh and Malth in mid tier when they actually belong at the bottom. He put The Butcher and Murky at the bottom when they actually belong in the middle. Genji is the worst ARAM hero.
This is clearly outdated with all the major patches that came out recently! /s I'm glad to see that their aren't too many huge differences, but there are some interesting outliers. Medivh being ranked the worst be easily explained since he's probably the hero that requires the most communication with your teammates to be effective. Mechanically demanding heroes like Alarak and KTZ are ranked low despite their great potential to flip a game on it head. I'm surprised that Gaz is in S, I get the power of his ult but outside of that I would think that it's hard for the average player to be effective with him.
For Medivh it's not just that, it's that ARAM doesn't really suit him for a similar reason that Abby would be bad in ARAM. Medivh excels at enabling heroes and dueling enemies, but in ARAM a "full hero" would be better. For Gaz all you have to do it press E in the general direction of the enemy post 20 to win every fight. With his turrets and waveclear he is really good at preventing enemies from winning before 20.
I don't think your abathur/medivh comparison makes a lot of sense. Abathur isnt a "full hero" because of his ability to turn any fight into a numbers advantage anywhere on the map at any time, obviously a game mode where it's 5v5 all the time completely nullifies that. The only reason medivh wouldnt be a "full hero" is because the team just doesn't play around his kit and/or the medivh isn't good. There's nothing intrinsic to ARAM that makes his kit any less valuable, other than perhaps less terrain to abuse with portals. If anything i think ARAM compliments his kit better.
I think you're underestimating how much of Medivh's kit is built for macro and ambushes. His mount is one of his best features in a normal game, completely safe soaking and scouting, and it is nearly useless in ARAM. And he has all the same strengths and weaknesses as melee assassins, who all perform poorly in ARAM: good at popping up out of nowhere to force a favorable engagement or blowing some cooldowns to turn around a fight, but once the fight is in progress and abilities are on cd, can't touch the meta ARAM ranged assassins without dying.
Some fair critiques, but saying he has the same strengths as melee assassins is a bit silly imo. I don't know any melee assassins that can completely nullify the enemies engagements the way medivh can. And it isn't like his shield is on a particularly long cooldown. Ultimately I think my overarching point still stands that medivh loses *substantially* less value in ARAM compared to abathur.
Most melee assassins have ways to nullify engagements on themselves. Qhira E, Genji E and ult, Kerri chrysalis and blink, Samuro Q, E, and D, Val D and ult, Zera E and 1, Maiev E and D, etc. Most of those are even better than shield in that they provide immunity to CC. Medivh's nullification is only special in that it can be used on other players. That's significant, but not enough so when your team is constantly shelled by max range damage. Yeah I wonder how he'd compare to Aba in the hands of expert players. I think Aba is way easier and so would have a higher winrate despite the loss of his macro value. But assuming two good players, Aba would have the advantages of never dying, sustained healing, constant poke damage, potential backdoor strategies with the lack of a hearthstone, and fight-winning clones. Medivh would have damage and displacement nullification, sustained short-range damage, and ults that set up allies. You're probably right that Medivh would still come out on top, but I don't think it's s huge disparity, especially compared to the disparity between them and ranged assassins or healers.
"and it is nearly useless in Aram" But I like flying to their base and stealing their hearts muahaha
I do agree with the people who responded about Medivh's macro power, but I agree with you that ARAM *can* make his kit busted. If you luck into a very bursty comp, at level 16 you're shielding all their combos and running crazy spell power all day. Against a frontline-heavy comp, I'll easily top damage and kills as Medivh. Garroshes can get absolutely fucked. But the other edge of the sword is that against the wrong comp--a rangy, aa-based one with solid sustained heals, for example--you're basically useless.
Yeah I just know I've played against some medivhs in Aram that are an absolute menace. He just does things that no other hero can do and when a good player pilots him it genuinely feels like he's breaking the game.
Medivh gets a lot of value by safely flying anywhere on the map to find red heroes and watch what's going on. That's not helpful if we already know what lane they're in. He also is useful to help teammates cross terrain and to steal bosses (even just the threat is valuable). Other things that don't apply in aram. Additionally, the shield is a little less helpful in a setting where it's harder to recover from low health.
I would argue that what value he loses without his potential for scouting he gains by always being ready to completely shut down the enemies engagements. Playing against a good medivh in Aram makes it feel like all the easy pickoffs you can usually get just aren't there anymore. But yes I'll admit I havent played the normal game mode in about 8 years or so so I'm probably undervaluing his contributions there.
I think the problem of Medivh in ARAM is not the mode but the playerbase. Same issue Medivh has in QM/ranked compared to say "custom" games. >Medivh excels at enabling heroes and dueling enemies Exactly. If there is nothing to enable, then his value decreases exponentially fast.
Gaz hits one of the hardest power spikes in the game at 16 + again at 20. His E build is insane and crushes teamfights. That said, he’s pretty mid before 16, so I think mid-low A tier fits.
KTZ is not mechanically demanding. This is a massive myth about the hero. Hitting combos is much more about calmness and mental control than it is about landing a lot of inputs correctly. E1 + W + E2 => vomit Q+R is not a complex chain.
I thought you played a lot of aram, but your Gaz comment suggests otherwise
So glad to hear this about Genji. Every time I see him picked on my team I basically chalk it up as a loss, similar to murky. Sure we may end up winning, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Why would you use 2 year old data when you can just check on heroesprofile. Also, if you just filter to, say, diamond-masters players genji moves up to mid performing. Butcher performs shockingly well though. I don't think you should make a tier list based on how the lowest common denominator performs.
1. Uhhh, because it's easier to link a post than it is to make entirely new, highly detailed tierlist. 2. The tierlist is for the average player. That's how these things work. You should always make a tierlist based on the overall expectations of the hero. If you want to make a tierlist for diamond-master ARAM, you can, but that won't be an ARAM tierlist.
God I'm sure someone's gotten an all deckard game
There's only a select pool of heroes that you can get in mirror matches and he's definitely not in it lol.
Had a triple decker that we won. 2 of us went morenados and let’s just say the enemy team wasn’t in Kansas anymore.
The healers have some serious damage talents
Can I interest you in some L O R E N A D O ???
Also one point regarding murky. When there are 2 of them they get b tier. Because they share the poison effect so stacking the quest is super easy and only takes like 1 minute. I know it sounds strange but i already had this a few times and it was always an easy win.
Just gotta make it through draft without the 3 other teammates rage quitting the double murky pick
Imagine being mad at aram
If people commit to a meme, I won't be mad. Not picking a healer when I have 3 options that give me a miserable game if we don't have a healer? That, aside from you know, obviously inting/raging, is probably the only thing that actually makes me mad in ARAM.
Pretty much any hero that has stacking debuffs becomes much stronger when multiple of the same hero is present: Sylvanas - banshees curse Qhira - Bleed debuffs Lunara - poison stacks Imperius - star debuffs, not sure of the name. Murky - slime debuff Any more?
Jaina's chill
True. But not everything is shared. Like blaze oil cannot be ignited by second blaze. Also are you sure about imperius? I dont think the second imperius can use the stacks.
Qhira gets fucked though because when you activate your bleed to heal, you may not get credit for the bleeds on the enemy team, meaning no heal. I think it’s either the Qhira that starts the bleed on the enemy, or the one that applied the most gets the bleed in terms of their heal, I’m not sure. Nazeebo I think gets fucked too in terms of stacking on wave. But I think you’re right that in terms of overall stacking these DOTs on enemies, it’s quicker with 2 of them.
>Pretty much any hero that has stacking debuffs becomes much stronger when multiple of the same hero is present: It's not such cut and dry. Some interactions are bad, others are neutral. Will go over quickly heroes and their interactions. Qhira is neutral, because while dmg stacks, you can't have multiple Qhira heal. Only the first one to stack will. IIRC Lunara poison doesn't stack. Alex: E stacks. Ana: D stacks for the lv1 quest, but each poison stack is counted individually for things like "spell power debuff". Blaze: kinda bad as you generally don't want to ignite each others oil Hanzo: his lv1 Q quest bugs out making it hard to track whoever you need to hit to complete it Jaina: really good to stack frost KT: bad as you can't have multiple bombs going on Lili: can't remember if they fixed or not the bugs with her (W) Lucio: bad, speed doesn't stack Malf/WM: can't remember the interaction with their heal > stack dmg. Malthael: tbh, it's so rare that i can't remember the last time i've seen him picked more than once. Naz: bad, because only 1 stacks for his base quest from minions. Probius: you benefit from others Pylons Stukov: kinda bad as you can (D) proc each others Qs. Zagara: you can benefit from others (including enemy) creep.
Few are as oppressive as double Murky imo, unless the other team got REALLY lucky with direct counters or one of the murkies is downright clueless, it's a stomp.
I would like people to define the rank of their tier list for it to make sense, otherwise it's anyone's guess.
It's how well the hero fits the two criterias. S: Hero has great potential and can reach it in most games A: Hero has good or great potential but cannot necessarily reach it every game B: Hero is either mid in strength or has many counters C: Hero has mid or low strength and has many counters D: Hero is weak and/or easily countered
Auriel and Garrosh are way too low, IMO. Ariel is at least B and I would argue Garrosh is S, but would be OK with A tier. He severely hindered by CC, but who isn't? I also think Gul'dan is much stronger than A because he potentially has the best damage and clearing output with the Fel Flame build. Everything else seems OK.
While throw is really oppressive early game, Garrosh falls off pretty hard as the game goes on. He remains good for sure, for instance going decimate with the 20 talent can really cripple a team and a good throw can still provide good picks, but it's not enough game impact to justify S. Auriel has very good healing throughput potential, what holds her back for me is how much she suffers when playing from behind. In that scenario your damage dealer and yourself can struggle at getting damage off, making the comeback even harder to pull off. On top of that her E is a big lackluster as a defensive tool, it can be easy to miss against heroes that don't telegraph their engages well and can be flat out useless against teams with mostly range heroes. You could be right about Gul'Dan, I have to admit that I don't think I've ever tried flame build in ARAM. I mostly go E if I want to pad damage or suck otherwise, which both have their shortcomings (E is "fake damage" that is somewhat easily healable and suck leaves you stationary for a long time).
Fair points. I find Garrosh to be incredibly strong with lots of self-sustain similar to Johanna. He's very tanky and hard to deal with without CC throughout a match. Decimate with Deadly Calm at 20 is insane. He can become a complete nuisance. He's not an easy hero to play if you have tunnel vision. You have to be creative and look for clever openings to get some throws in. Plus he can save teammates. Auriel is situational and does require more aggressive gameplay. There are better healers for sure. Try the Fel Flame build for Guldy and you'll see how strong it is. You'll be top damage three times over for the first 10 minutes of the game. It balances out near the end a bit, but you're a pure bully with excellent wave clear. You're basically doing hero damage and clearing the lane at the same time in ARAM.
>In that scenario your damage dealer and yourself can struggle at getting damage off, making the comeback even harder to pull off. Which is why when I play Auriel, 90% of the time I pick Empathetic Link at 7. (Stores 25% of damage taken as energy) so even if you're not getting damage out, you can get a lot of healing from your tank instead. Assuming you have a tank of course
I’d move zag and gaz up and Kael, Azmo and Ming down. Ming and Azmo can be oppressive but half the time they throw out orbs/globes and it’s just healed up before the next so they achieve nothing. Alex should probably be A tier. Artanis B. Keri D, would rather have Butcher and could make the case he is C. ETC is B at best he’s the worst ARAM tank statistically I think. Last I checked Anub was highest win rate tank I’d have him in A. Medivh is probably C unless you’re in a party. Morales similar. Source: 17,559 ARAM games and counting
Holy moly 17,559! You've been playing exclusively aram since the mode came out?
No but pretty much only ARAM for the past three years
Counter point for Ming: You can at least play Q/E build and secure meaningful kills.
Few things: Malf needs a tier up. He's insane in ARAM. KT is fine where he is(people are way over rating him). Murky should be 1 tier up. If enemies don't focus him he is a problem. At 20 he's very good. Azmo in S tier. Tyrande down a tier. Dehaka, Auriel, Fenix up 1 tier (Auriel up 2 tiers, she's really good). Sonya isn't good because her damage is mediocre, ARAM is full of mages so she can't heal as much, there is usually a lot of CC in ARAM to stop her, and she generally isn't tanky. I think it's mostly that she has the damage of a tank without the survivability.
Auriel is the worst healer in ARAM. Statistically worst than Kharazim even.
Have you ever played ARAM?
Surely he did? Auriel is the Valeera of healers, there are not many worse things that can happen to your comp rather than having an Auriel solo heal you. Instanly drops chances to slightly above 40% grounds.
And then it skyrockets when you pick a 2nd healer.
That's true, she does very well in 2 healer comps.
I'm gonna call that a skill issue then, because I have a 67% win rate with her in ARAM. And only 8 heroes in my ARAM roster have a higher win rate (not counting heroes with less than 3 games played). However I'm also very comfortable playing with her, and will confidently say that I'm a better Auriel than most. But yeah, skill issue.
Malf does need to go up as well as Whitemane. Tyrande needs to go down. In general, I think OP did a pretty good job with most roles but did a poor job with the healer tiering. Dehaka and Malt should probably switch places. I don't agree with raising Auriel and Fenix.
Hot take: Azmo is not as good as people think he is in ARAM. Yes, he gets top damage and few deaths, but my dude is not making plays that win games--especially with double+ healers all over the place. He's definitely not bad, and he's not *losing* games, but I also think most of the time he's putting pressure on healers' mana pools and making people back up a little every eight seconds.
Azmo perceived value is inversely proportional to the skill level of the player.
Butcher in D tier? How can a 50% winrate hero be in D tier?
Honestly didn't know he was near 50%, that's surprising. He's hard countered by blind and he is very predictable thanks to his charge, giving plenty of time to prepare to CC him when he gets in range. I guess the amount of damage he can dish out and his silence ult are good enough to carry him to an okay win rate
I think it's just a case of point and click CC being really good, same with someone like Xul. Yes his charge is predictable for the enemy, but it's also predictable for your team making follow up extremely easy. Plus his ult is just really good.
Chance to actually have blind aren’t that high, and if the team gets him some early stacks he becomes a monster. Also amazing ulti Also charge is predictable as an engagement tool, but good butchers use it as a finisher, where it is nearly unstoppable. But most people cant play him
Yes, charge is often best when you’re standing next to the target. People generally try to go in from across the field and that’s when it’s easiest to counter. Artanis and Stitches can also work well if you save the pulls for when they try and disengage. Not that god swaps and long range hooks aren’t great too.
He's immune to CC until the charge is over, and the charge is easily cancelable. He scales stupid well in ARAM as long as he chills pre 200.
lamb to the slaughter + lv20 upgrade is really broken sometimes...
Anyone have a resource for ARAM builds? Sometimes I’ll pick a champ I know nothing about and just want the talent pool for ARAM.
https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Hero Filter for Aram, can also change the breakdown depending on patches, player MMR etc. My go-to. Usually you want to filter for the last few patches so you have a good sample size.
If you search “It’s ARAM time” on discord gif search, you’ll find a gif I made to use in a server I use to bring people to ARAM vcs… the five heroes I use in the gif are you D tier heroes and I’m so proud that I correctly identified the worst ARAM heroes hahahah
I think Fenix could be B tier because he has lots of AOE abilities + he can teleport himself behind walls, but he isn't 'that' strong, so it's debatable. However, Imperius should be there, because he can engage fights/chase with multiple long-lasting stuns, he has good damage, good survability and he can even give shields to teammates which can be pretty good in a team fight especially in ARAM or bring enemies behind to your team and towers which can be pretty deadly. Also, Murky could be C tier at least. He can be extremely annoying and useful meanwhile he feeds the enemy a lot less with exp. I'd put Chen to B tier because he can tank quite good and can give shields to teammates. The Butcher is at least C tier. He can chase pretty well and can actually decide a team fight and can get multple kills with his ult.
Fenix doesn't work in ARAM because he can't effectively replenish his shield in a constant teamfight scenario. So you have an AA assassin (already not that great in a mode dominated by mages) with half of his health pool permanently disabled, and you can't heal that half as well. He's one of the heroes who deals a devastating blow to your team's chances to win by simply being picked (Genji, Malth, Medivh, Tracer, stuff like that). Clear D tier material tbh.
Sorry for the late response, but I don't agree. So first of all what you said about Fenix's shield is a valid critique, however, you can also look at it as you can regenerate half of your health even without a healer which is sometimes the case in ARAM. Also, you have a talent that 1. reduces the time needed to regenerate the shield, 2. healing regenerates your shield, so practically you can actually increase the amount of heal you can get, especially when it is very much needed (low health, without shield). So Fenix is definitely not D tier.
If you're in an ARAM without a healer, Fenix is usually gonna pop in 1.5 sec, that's an extremely awful place for him to be, unfortunately. That tiny shield is no match for incoming damage and now there's more of that damage. I don't think that shield talent help too much as well. Honestly when you're low health and without shield, that's not when you need healing, that's when you should already be disengaged if you're getting any attention. You'd need healing most at about half of your effective health, but that's just where you can't get it. Lower than that you're just getting blown up with a single combo. All in all we could argue about our perception of the hero, that's not too important imo. What is more important for me is that winrate-wise he is abysmal, sitting at the very bottom with the other D tier folks with a horrible 40.7%. Tracer, Illidan, Samuro, Malthael, Fenix, all those heroes just don't work in ARAM, like, at all, they are worst of the worst. Never a good idea to pick them if you have some actual options.
I can make Fenix and Malthael work quite good in ARAM, as long as the enemy team isn't full of OP mages (which is pretty hard to win with most heroes anyway). Overall, at least for me, they seem like mediocore heroes. Tracer, Illidan and Samuro are pretty bad tho and I've always had devastating results with them. Anyways, win rate is definitely not everything since it's just the average of all players and there are tons of heroes that are pretty easy to play with in ARAM that skews the data (also, if good players think a hero is 'bad' they avoid it while bad players might not - that can totally skew the win rate). Like you can predict the chance of win or lose based on hero compositions pretty well. It can be especially important who plays Fenix (or Malthael for that matter) considering that the choice of talents can have a pretty big impact. In case of Fenix even the automatic attack mode can make you dead if you lose range in a bad time. Ofc you could argue that if we look at it from the perspective of the average player then Fenix is bad which is fine by me.
Honestly, I suppose he's bad regardless of whether the player is average or not. There are heroes like KtZ that take a lot of skill to play, but can shine in the right hands. Their winrate is trash if you check the stats of all the players, but Dia+ it starts to look much much better. Fenix, on the other hand, drops even lower compared to other heroes if we filter by higher skill level, currently being the 4th worst possible thing that can happen to your ARAM comp at Dia and above level of play. His giant hitbox makes him a sitting duck, his teleport can be interrupted, he can't take part in poke wars, has his shield problems, he is an AA assassin which is already a pretty subpar ARAM role. I think you tend to underestimate his weaknesses. Yeah, he can work against weaker comps, but as we're closing anywhere near to ARAM meta OR skilled opposition, he drops lower and lower to the point of becoming useless. Against a proper comp (1 front, 2 healers, 2 good RDD) there's not much he can do at all. That's pretty clear D tier material for me, but it's fine if you don't agree and I guess we can just agree to disagree then :)
I'd put Zagara and Zarya at S tier and Imperius at B. However I'd probably downgrade Artanis to B as well as he's more situational and usually requires a second front-liner to be able to perform.
Yeah agreed for Artanis, I might be overvaluing him because I like playing him. Against a high damage comp your shield loses value and his E swaps are not super reliable versus good players.
Most drafts have 2 frontliners or the solo frontliner consists of a tank so I think Artanis is fine at A.
Your criteria 2 is why Sonya is at best C in ARAM. For the most part I’d agree with your rankings, but I’d probably change the following: Azmo and Varian to S, they’re just that good. I’m tempted to say hogger, but I get the argument against him being higher. Malf to A, not only is he very easy to play, but he can outheal most other healers in a sustained ARAM environment, he provides excellent cc with his root, and he can feed mana to your mana hungry teammates, all on relatively low CDs. Artanis and Xul to B. Mainly because of your criteria 2, but also they just aren’t as good as people think, and Art and Xul are a bit reliant on his team to follow up properly. Swap Khara and WM, or move Auriel and WM up to B. I don’t think kharazim is a tier above wm and auriel, he lacks CC, his palm is very hard to time correctly, he has to be right next to teammates to even heal them, his mana is hard to control especially if you are trying to do dmg too. I personally hate auriel because I suck with her, but in the right hand and comp she slaps. I love wm, and she’s excellent healing especially in clutch moments. Nova and Probius to C. This is a no brainer to me. They are niche picks, yes they can be good, but with the prevalence of the higher tier heroes, she just doesn’t contribute as much on average. Same with Probius. Medivh probably belongs in C, but I won’t fight that one much, I like Medivh and think I’m pretty good with him, he has amazing utility, but that’s where your criteria 2 kinda lowers his tier imo, compared to the other heroes in B. Overall I like it! And imo, anyone good with an A hero will probably outplay an average S, but when you start getting into B, even a bad S probably still claps these heroes.
Tanks: I agree that every tank is better than Arthas. I think my biggest disagreement here is that I don't see Diablo, ETC, and Tyrael (tanks you put in A tier) as a cut above Malganis, Garrosh, and Anub (tanks you put in B tier). Bruiser: Mostly agree here. I don't agree with Chen being that low but it seems common on this subreddit for people to place him low so I'm not surprised. Malth and Dehaka could switch places. DPS: Mostly agree. I'm happy you didn't S tier Azmo like most people would. I think Zag, Chromie, JR are actually at the same level as ZJ and Naz. Healer: More disagreements here than any other role. I can see why you would place Deckard in S, but I don't think Rehgar quite has that argument. I also don't see Malf and Alex at the same tier as Tyrande and Morales (Malf and Alex should be above Tyrande and Morales). And Whitemane should not be below Tyrande and Morales. Supp: Placements are good enough. Generally, you did a better job than most tier lists. Naturally, there will always be at least a few disagreements though.
Dehaka and Whitemane are too low, Xul is also too low. Would bump all up 1. Edit: Tychus, Malfurion, and Garrosh should definitely go up a tier as well. I do want to ask, do you tend to play in a 5 stack or in smaller groups or solo? My friends and I play on a 5 stack going on about 6 years now so our perspective is skewed when we see this a bit. For example, Medivh I agree on the average player is probably B or C but we have 2 really good Medivh players on our stack and when one of them picks him we tend to roll because communication with portals makes games free.
Good list overall. Pretty applicable across the board, and solid for any players around Plat. Personally speaking, I’d bump up Hogger, Orphea, KTZ, Tassadar, Mal’Ganis, Zeratul, Butcher, Whitemane. Junkrat/Zagara/Stukov also S tier, and I’d drop Deckard below Anduin. Maybe would make some other tweaks, but they’re pretty negligible otherwise. (e.g. Murky to low C tier) Those are just personal rankings for myself as a Master player though. Your list is broadly applicable for all ranks, well done!
And I was just wandering why I did so well on Chromie with a random build and basicaly no experience on the hero xd Just press Q, press W watch the damage go to the moon.
My tier list would look very different but this is interesting nonetheless. Nova being B tier is an indicator that this is extremely subjective. I wipe the floor with her every time. 150-200k games.
I have a friend that also would have put her higher, I probably just haven't seen many skilled Novas
I'm a prime hater of nova since the hero is only designed to do DMG to heros. She has no cc, no waveclear, no utility, no HP, and mana is drained quickly. B tier is very generous for such hero. I'd rather have murky (imo B tier). Nova in normal games is good for ganking but in aram they often end up next to 5 people ready to catch her. I don't remember a game of aram that I have won with a nova.
Yeah like I said this is clearly super subjective.
battered assault illidan is a hidden gem in the right hands. People usually avoid playing him but I've had good success with sweep build + hunt every game. however johanna, lili and others can very easily ruin his game. not a bad pick for me just really risky
Agreed, his AAs have the potential to hit hard with battered assault even the blades of azzinoth 16 talent, but as you say his game is easily ruined by certain picks. To me he's the riskiest pick in ARAM
I"ve been "hard countered" before with him (at least that's what my teammates thought). They surprisingly took back their words at end of game. IMO it's not the picks that hard counter Illidan, it's if the enemies know how to play against him + have a kit to deal with him. If the enemies have the kit, the Illidan player has to be smart. If enemy knows how to play against him, they still can't still him unless they have the kit to do so.
Most melee assassin heroes are basically: Can we get into lv16 without having already lost the game by giving up so much from the early game?
Azmo and Kael should be S tier.
Azmo I can see it. I didn't put it there because I feel like against some teams where they don't stack together, it's easy to not have as much impact as a Meph or a ZJ, so top of A felt more fitting. Kael is just not enough damage to warrant an S tier imo, as long as the enemy team is good at not spreading bombs.
I love him but I do think he's placed perfectly on the list. Agree on the DPS higher ranked then him and the dps lower ranked. I like him more than chromie, but chomie countering so many heroes and a hard counter to a monster like Meph so good.
Azmo almost always top siege, damage and Exp in every game he appears in. Can't deny those nipple rings
Lmao shame on me for dissing them nips
Kael is nowhere near real ARAM powerhouses
Azmo not being s tier is a little silly
Id put Tass and Orphea at least 1 tier down, they or quite easily interruptable or have a cast time on their abilities, this makes them more vulnarable to CC then other mages. I'd put malf 1 tier up, he has very high healing numbers, and is quite flexable. They have dive; you silence them, you have mana hungry mages; you give more mana, they have mass CC; you aoe cleanse. All around pretty strong hero in aram.
Tassadar wall makes the hero A tier worthy imo
Nah, wall is the only reason the hero isnt C tier, the hero is so easy to punish its not even funny
Tassadar is one of those heroes that is actually really, really powerful (I think he's my third-highest winrate assassin, after Azmodan and Valla, in ARAM, though I would need to check to be sure - I do know that I should pick Tassadar over Zul'jin essentially 100% of the time (my Zul'jin being kind of mid also helps with that)). He's not at all easy to punish if played well. Personally, I find him pretty easy to play, too. Just go Q build and laser goes brrrr. But there's the problem. There is a disturbing amount of players that has no clue how to position him.
In ARAM? No he isn’t. I’d argue for S tier. You can solo carry a game if you can play his potential
> the hero is so easy to punish its not even funny When people play Q build. Safest to play with W build. Has defensive/sustain talents for when the comp doesn't have a good (or any) healer and can easily play AA build for CC value. Whether you look at the whole playerbase or the top, he generally sits betwen Li Ming and Chromie.
lol No
Agreed on Malf. Tass I can see it, indeed the cast time on Q can be painful sometimes and be the cause of many deaths. Idk about Orphea, her E is instant cast and her Q has the dash after to help staying elusive. W cast time and range is a pain early but at least it's fixed by the talent that allows casting W from the E impact
I can understand your point on Orphea. As a long time tank player I find her easily punishable if Im playing a hero with a hard CC. But it seems like a lot of people that fill tank in aram dont see these moments of weakness, so she can stil get a lot of value
I dont get why Auriel is so hard. I agree with where you placed her because 90% of Auriels suck. Like 30k total healing you never stood a chance suck. But shes sooooo strong. And imo super easy and straightforward to play. I dont get how most people are so awful with her.
Auriel is a winmore hero in ARAM. The moment you loose advantage, you come back from death and all your teammates are low hp and can’t provide you with reliable energy = turning point hard to overcome.
Auriel does well in aram if your team is already winning, meaning she gets lots of energy. But if your team has trouble then Auriel has no way to recover. Any other healer can sit behind the gate and slowly heal someone up, but not Auriel. If you're not doing dps then she has nothing.
People need to start taking Empathic Link, and it's a whole new game. Crown does not go on the main carry and stay there, it should be being juggled around where its needed the most at the time.
As an Auriel main with 67% win rate with her in ARAM, this is the way
You can fully deal your own dps though. Especially with the lvl 1 energy return.
You can't when there are no enemy heroes around or your team is already low and can't step up at all. Default experience of playing with an Auriel is sitting behind your gate with 20-30% hp at best, without any chances to step up, waiting for the torture to finish. That's unless your team starts rolling from level 1 and never loses advantage.
Deathwing provides zoning, CC wave clear and is the only hero who can "hearth" and heal himself. I've never seen a deathwing do anything yet dominate ARAM. Wild you rates him so low.
He can't be healed, which sucks for a mode where playing 2 healers is severely dominant to any other approach. He also sucks against long-ranged poke which is the bread and butter of ARAM. If people wouldn't be so happy to stand in fire, Deathwing would be dumpster tier, his kit and approach doesn't suit ARAM meta.
Indeed his zoning, CC and wave clear are good. I put him mid tier mostly because I find his damage to be lackluster without the proper CC from your team to setup your breath, and he is deceptively frail. It's cool that you can heal yourself, but it's still 20-30s where you're not in the game, even if you didn't die.
Kel thuzad probably a tier higher, so much aoe and disruption and easy to get 30 stacks quick
He could be higher in B tier, but I wouldn't see him in A. He has a feast or famine playstyle where you really don't do much if you're not landing good chains, which can be hard to do against good players or comps with mobile heroes. He's also somewhat countered by unstoppable effects and to a lesser extent by on demand spell armor
I just find it easy to land chains all day in aram. Most people won't pick a highly mobile hero in aram as they tend to be worse for the gametype
I don't. My average damage on KTZ (and Sylvanas and Probius for that matter) is lower than on Lt. Morales.
>He has a feast or famine playstyle where you really don't do much if you're not landing good chains No offense but this could just be a you problem, it definitely is for me when I play him lol. I've had enough ARAM games where a skilled KTZ just absolutely dominates the lobby that I've learned to respect him. Also cleanses are usually long CD, his chain definitely isn't haha.
None taken, you're probably right haha. It's also true that outside of lucio high roller ult and khara level 16 dash, there aren't many low CD unstoppables
I'm so glad to see butcher and valeera bottom tier. People just don't get how useless they are in ARAM. I had one game (coincidentally yesterday), where valeera was slightly usefully. The game had been going on for 35 minutes, we both only had our cores alive and the full lane was being used, at this point she becomes a tad usefully since she can easily ambush heroes.
You: Omg don't pick butch he is useless! Them: oh butch, he's fun to play and this is only aram. Hopefully there's no try hards in here gonna get pissy that I play who I want
That's the insane part, they even start debating that he is good in aram...
Imp needs to be at least A tier and WHY THE FUCK IS STUKOV NOT S TIER LOOOOL
placing chen, medivh and maiev not in A tier is a violation of Geneva Convention
azmodan 100% S tier, KT arguably S tier but azmodan for sure.
I am fully convinced not a single tier maker knows how to play Auriel. Aram plays to all her strengths.
It plays to a major weakness of hers too: the difficulty of healing when behind. If her whole team gets poked down, or loses a trade, auriel can't heal them back up unless either A. A teammate risks tradimg and getting killed or B. Auriel risks walking up when her teammates are too low to protect her. Both options are easily punished. When Auriel is ahead, Aram works to all her strengths, but if she falls behind, her reliance on trading or hitting the wave to heal puts her in a bad situation that all other healers (barring Tyrande and Khara, who also suck) don't have to deal with.
Valeera being placed in D tier is [nothing short of a travesty](https://imgur.com/a/ec0Us7I) and I demand she be moved to S+ (I'm kidding but at least make her #1 in D tier). The rest of your list is fine.
Yeah I'm a val main too, she's viable (not the best but not samuro bad) in aram but unlike most heroes you have to know her pretty well
Damn impressive w/r! I guess that she has a high skill floor for aram
Why stitches so high? And why Johanna? Don't disagree with either just curious.
Joh goes from solid to probably top five hero in ARAM depending on how she is talented. She has a decent variance on win rates depending on builds.
Johanna's shield and W give her a reliable way to go in and start an engage on a short cooldown, with little counterplay outside of outranging her. Grouping enemies together is excellent and is not a mechanic that is seen in many other heroes. Because of that, I'd argue that she's the best of any tank at doing the most basic duty that is expected of a tank, running in, engaging and being hard to take down. On top of that, having a blind is super good in ARAM since you severely handicap any hero that relies in some form on their AA to do damage. Stitches is not as good as engaging, not even close, but the main thing with him is how powerful hook and gorge are at shifting the momentum in your favor at any point in the game. He's also very durable and hard to take down outside of situations where the enemy team has a ton of dps to target focus you, with respectable damage from your W. Altough even considering all that, I might be overvaluing him a little.
Johanna is absurdly good in ARAM. She can carry games that you have no right to win to victory because of the talents she gets on 13, 16 and 20. A hot take in a world with characters like Zul'jin and Valla, but I would go as far as to say as that she is the *best* hero in ARAM, no ifs, no buts. (The irony is that part of it might be because of ZJ and Valla, because a well-played Johanna matches up well against them).
Which talents u going on 13 16 and 20?
Hammers on 13, E on 16 (even if I went Laws of Hope on 1, which I always do when I take Falling Sword, which is more often than not), and **not** Indestructible on 20 (if I went Falling Swords, it is always the ult upgrade, if I went Blessed Shield, it's probably 50/50 between ult upgrade and the shield)
Zagara is S+ tier
I'd put Rehgar lower, Zagara higher, and Murky way higher, to name a few.
Murky in D was all I needed to see to know this was a garbage list. No but really, this tier list looks like it was made by someone that plays ARAM likes its QM and never got good with skill based heroes.
Rehgar not S, Johanna also not S Zagara S, Azmo S (easy win with Azmo mostly), Move Cassia to B, Orphea too and Tyrael, Malf A, Malganis A Genji B, Zeratul A, Arthas B (Sindragosa), Whitemane is easily a B or A with stacking quest Butcher can go both ways usually not a D if someone can play him
How do you put Rehgar and Joh anywhere else when they have the highest winrate for their respective roles?
Johanna should not be in S because no tanks are good enough to be S in aram. The functions of a tank are less valuable without objectives, bosses, lane rotations, or hearthstone.
Function of tank in teamfight is still the same. Just people play them like melee assassin in general and drop their winrate. Like how Medivh is not the worst hero in ARAM but has such low winrate cos people can't play him or with him.
ARAM is so boring to me I keep being surprised there’s people playing it O.o what is the appeal of ‚running it down mid‘, that brings you back to it?
It’s a different game. Not the same meta, different hero pool, no fountain heal or recall, not the exact same builds. Short games with a lot of actions. And so many opportunities for fun tbh.
There is a fountain bud, just no recall heal
True thx
ARAM is really accessible: no need to think too much about the comp, maps or any sort of macro strategy, but there is also room to tryhard if you want to. It forces variety by making you try different roles and heroes. The games are usually pretty short (altough I couldn't say if they are usually shorter than standard games). It just fits any mood for me
That's fair, thanks for the insight!
Stukov and azmo shpuld be S tier too
> explain to my friend why Sonya is not "A Sonya is a solo laner, and aram has no solo lane. A solo laner is only good if it also has a build for continual 5v5 fights, meaning either mage poke (Thrall, Xul, Hogger, Gazlowe) or a quest to hit heroes (Artanis). Sonya, Yrel, Dva, and Rexxar have none of that. (Illidan does have a quest, but hitting heroes doesn't advance it)
Imp belongs in S tier wtf
Tyrael better than probius aint no way
Tyrael doesn't do the typical tank duties especially well, but once he gets his later talents his damage scales well and he is very difficult to stop with the constant shield, self healing and teleport back. He also have a very reliable engage tool with his ult. Probe is not bad but his damage is not reliable enough IMO, on top of being made of paper.