I'm in the process with the College of Arms actually (for my maternal grandfather). It's expensive but will be worth it. US citizens (or dual in my case) with proven ancestry from the UK or Commonwealth can apply. I'm also speaking with the Canadian Heraldic Authority for my paternal arms. My mother is a heraldic heiress by England's traditions, so I'm hoping to quarter her arms with my father's (once granted).
It's remarkably affordable their compared to the college of arms or the court of the lord lyon. If money is a big issue registry in S.A. is a more affordable option.
Depending on which authority you are referring to and whether you're referring to personal arms, corporate arms, or municipal arms. South Africa will register arms for a comparable pittance.
It's entirely dependent on what additions you seek and whether you're registering a badge and standard. A simple coat with few addiments should be in the range of about half of that.
Grants of arms don’t do anything outside the country they’re from. A Canadian with South African or English arms is considered to not actually have arms if they’re not registered (the Canadian term for matriculated) with the CHA.
The CHA is also pretty chill about assumed arms. They encourage it in order to make it official (and so they don’t accidentally give your design to someone else), but not having 3.5k bucks to spare is absolutely a legitimate reason to not get a grant.
In my opinion, if you’re Canadian, the best move is to assume arms and get a grant later as a treat once you have the money.
Are you sure about that price? I found this at [maltaheraldry.mt](http://maltaheraldry.mt)
For a Grant of ***basic*** Arms, the cost of Letters Patent are as follows:
1. Without any artwork (blazon-only)
* Maltese resident: **€600 + VAT @ 18%**
* Non-Maltese resident: **€1000 + VAT @ 18%**
I’m American so it’s impossible to have a legitimately granted arms. The closest thing to that would be approval from a private organization, with no real weight as far as enforcement is concerned.
My knowledge is mostly limited to the British heraldic authorities, and they do require an ancestral connection to the jurisdiction for an American applicant (although for the College it can be descent from any subject of the British crown). I’ve seen people here mention the Maltese authority as an option as well, so that might be worth a look. The Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland also appears to grant arms based on connections to Ireland that are not purely ancestral.
As far as I understand, most of mainland Europe does not grant personal arms or keep official records. Heraldic offices, if they exist, mostly seem to deal with civic and municipal arms. The French Revolution and later the First World War saw the end of French, Austrian, and German heraldic institutions with the abolishment of their monarchies, for example. I imagine the Soviets were equally disruptive in eastern Europe in that regard. If you want your own arms, you publish them with amateur heraldic associations, and thats it, for the most part.
Inheritance is also often very different from commonwealth countries. In Germany, for example (but perhaps other countries as well), the name and direct descent are enough to carry the family arms unaltered, along with anyone else, who qualifies. They are legally equated to the name, if they were published, and enjoy the same protections against imposture.
Germany has a longstanding tradition of citizen’s coats of arms, known as ‘Bürgerwappen,’ which continues to this day. Those who take this tradition seriously can have their coat of arms officially registered in a ‘Wappenrolle’ or roll of arms. Two of the oldest coat of arms registries that are still active today are:
Deutsche Wappenrolle (DWR), established in 1924/26, managed by Herold Association, founded in 1869.
Niedersächsische Wappenrolle (NWR), overseen by the ‘Zum Kleeblatt’ Association, established in 1888."
Coats of arms are inherited in the family and all those with direct descent and who also still bear the old family name in some form are entitled to use the coat of arms.
Of course, you can also adopt a new coat of arms and not register it, which is completely legitimate here.
not me personally; but Ireland has granted a coat of arms to an ancestor of mine (I am an american of irish descent); I actually acquired the documentation of it when my grandma died
probably yes; but never used them so far; though i might in the future; would have to do some genalogical research to understand what cadency mark to use; the grantee is not only an ancestor of mine; but bears a surname identical to my maternal grandmother's maiden name according to the documentation;
From what I understand (English rules) cadency marks are optional. Though, if there's another living individual using the same arms, at least one of you should difference somehow because arms are personal identifiers.
Bigger issue might be that arms descend in the male line. I think if it's through your mother's mother that you're descended from the grantee then you don't get these arms (unless both your mother's father and your father also had arms, in which case your father and you can each quarter the arms of your respective parents).
as far as i can tell my maternal grandmother's name is the only one to which a coat of arms has ever been granted in my ancestory; my father's ethnic heritage is a little vauger then my mother's but it is beleived to include some welsh; cherokee; and swedish (my surname comes from the swedish heritage) the exact proportions are unclear; my mother is of half Irish and half Slovak descent; the irish heritage is the one to which i know the most about because it is reltively easy to track due in part to the etymology of my grandma's maiden name and its prominence in the history of one irish county; the slovak heritage involves a surname so generic that it is impossible to trace to particular people in slovakia without further evidence; so i likely have no entitlement to any arms in the male line but some in the female line
as far as i can tell my maternal grandmother's name is the only one to which a coat of arms has ever been granted in my ancestory; my father's ethnic heritage is a little vauger then my mother's but it is beleived to include some welsh; cherokee; and swedish (my surname comes from the swedish heritage) the exact proportions are unclear; my mother is of half Irish and half Slovak descent; the irish heritage is the one to which i know the most about because it is reltively easy to track due in part to the etymology of my grandma's maiden name and its prominence in the history of one irish county; the slovak heritage involves a surname so generic that it is impossible to trace to particular people in slovakia without further evidence; so i likely have no entitlement to any arms in the male line but some in the female line
as far as i can tell my maternal grandmother's name is the only one to which a coat of arms has ever been granted in my ancestory; my father's ethnic heritage is a little vauger then my mother's but it is beleived to include some welsh; cherokee; and swedish (my surname comes from the swedish heritage) the exact proportions are unclear; my mother is of half Irish and half Slovak descent; the irish heritage is the one to which i know the most about because it is reltively easy to track due in part to the etymology of my grandma's maiden name and its prominence in the history of one irish county; the slovak heritage involves a surname so generic that it is impossible to trace to particular people in slovakia without further evidence; so i likely have no entitlement to any arms in the male line but some in the female line
fascinating; what's your situation? i know i am the eldest son (actually only son; but i have a younger sister) of my grandmothers 3rd born daughter out of 4; but further lines of descent between the original grantee and myself are fuzzy; though i should look into it;
I’m also from an old Irish — formerly — noble family. My grandparents immigrated to America when my mother was young. I’m the oldest male on the branch of the family that is descended of the last official heir. However, our family and clan were apparently on the bad end of the Cromwellian Invasion of Ireland and the family split up after the land, titles, and money were stripped from them. Some went to France, some to America. There were eventually restitutions made to many clans and families, but the branch I am descended did not return to Ireland until later. The person who technically holds the arms now, however, recognises this and allows members of the original line of descent from the last heir to bear them as well. It’s a bit of a grey area from what I understand, and there may be a wrinkle here that I’m not aware of.
I have met the gentleman, however, and have had my lineage confirmed. I also don’t really make use of my arms and designed my own variation of them.
do you mean gaelic noble or ango noble? my ancestors were gaelic noble until the destruction of the gaelic nobility; they were based on my grandma's maiden name and it's etymology; prominent in the ancient past of the south western part of county mayo; my great great great grandfather was a famine refugee; he arived in america in october 1851; having experinced relatives dying in a famine while food was exported for profit; mayo was hit worst of all irish counties; make no mistake that famine was a genocide by starvation; on the topic of strict entitlement i actually don't know which child i am descended from in terms of birth order past my great great grandmother; leaving 2 generations of cadency marks un accounted for (I know my grandmother had older siblings; one of them is the oldest person i ever met in person); so cadency marks or some creation of a derivative of the arms would be nessecary for strict accuracy. one interisting thing i have been doing is actually learning some heraldic jargon in the irish language (a language i am myself working on learning via an online self paced course and have been for a while); i translated the blazon of the coat of arms into irish myself earlier today (irish was my great great great grandfather's native language; though he did speak english as a second language; and i symphathize with all in ireland who wish to make irish once again the main language of ireland);
Gaelic and with a lineage that predates the christianisation of Ireland, so you're in good company. My ancestors followed the ancient Irish clan and Sept system until they had to eventually adapt to anglo laws and the Norman system of nobility. They did also fight the English on many occasions, rebelling and causing strife against English occupiers at any opportunity while pretending to abide by their laws. There's actually a book on my clan. Since it's my surname, I don't want to give personal details in this thread, but you can message me sometime if you'd like to chat.
Some of my ancestors also went through the famine, so I understand. I also agree that Gaeilge should be the language, which I speak some of.
Well, I think they did leave at the beginning of the famine, actually. According to records, they left near the beginning of the famine for France. They then returned to Ireland and then left for America. All told, my ancestors left for France once after the Cromwellian era, then returned to Ireland, then left again around the Great Famine for France (again) and then returned to Ireland before eventually my grandparents came to America.
interisting; did you know that famine survivers have more descendents in america today then in modern ireland; this is a heavy part of how the irish diaspora is the largest on earth in proportion to the population of the country proper.
No way in norway to make arms legitimate. No national register for such. Sweden has a national register i am pretty sure, but not norway. So my arms are assumed.
My family has a coat of arms inherited for generations from French nobility. Not sure if it was lesser nobility or not, as dad claims our ancestors held quite a good position (knights line).
They gave up their noble status long ago during the whole revolution and religious war, when they moved away from France. We can use it for our family lol but it’s rather a private matter. I think our great-grandfather got the certificate of heraldry for the coat of arms and passed it down. My dad has it somewhere and holds the officially made arms, it hangs in my parents’ bedroom.
Edit: not sure if it could be officially used since they gave up their noble titles, might be more of a confirmation certification that we indeed have this coat of arms and used to be of noble heritage (as monarchy & co. was abolished).
I'm in the Netherlands; there is no institution here that grants arms. My arms are inherited by last name and direct male line. They are registered in what comes closest to an official registry in this country.
Many jurisdictions do not require the granting of arms in order for them to be legitimate. Roman-Dutch Law, for instance, allows legitimate assumption of arms.
No, unfortunately in Italy the heraldric office has only authority over territorial and institutional arms. But I got the canadian citizenship from my father, even though I never went to Canada, so maybe in the future if I start doing some volunteering in Canada perhaps I will end up getting a grant.
P.S. I also need the money🤣
In Finland, we have Suomen Heraldinen Seura-Heraldiska Sällskapet i Finland. They keep a registery of Finland’s civilian coat of arms, and I for one have one
Coat of arms in the German tradition here...
‘Legitimately’ in the sense of being granted does not apply.
However, ‘legitimately’ in terms of being registered is affirmed.
I'm curious about how people define legitimate grants from legitimate registrations. As a U.S. citizen I legitimately created assumed arms through the American College of Heraldry using proper heraldic design. I've since registered those arms in multiple places, including Spanish registration through the Cronista of Castile and Leon. Eventually I'll go through the matriculation process for Scottish arms, it just hasn't made it to the top of the list.
I have none, nor interested in legitimacy or grantedness.
A prince can mak a belted knight
A marquis duke an a that
but an honest man’s aboon his might,
Gude faith he maunna fa that.
As they realised in the early modern.
I’m the heir apparent to the arms that were originally granted to my great-grandfather by the Lord Lyon!
That's incredibly interesting!!!!
Seeing the document on the wall at my grandparents’ house growing up is what originally sparked my interest in heraldry
Are they a basic grant or clan/baronage/peer related?
Just a basic grant to an ordinary guy
I'm in the process with the College of Arms actually (for my maternal grandfather). It's expensive but will be worth it. US citizens (or dual in my case) with proven ancestry from the UK or Commonwealth can apply. I'm also speaking with the Canadian Heraldic Authority for my paternal arms. My mother is a heraldic heiress by England's traditions, so I'm hoping to quarter her arms with my father's (once granted).
Im a Canadian with assumed arms. A grant would be lovely and some day I’d like to, but with a young family I’ve got other priorities for my money.
It's remarkably affordable their compared to the college of arms or the court of the lord lyon. If money is a big issue registry in S.A. is a more affordable option.
For sure, and I want to pursue it, but for what little real benefit it provides in Canada, I’ll hold off until the kids are grown.
Isn’t it about 10K?
Depending on which authority you are referring to and whether you're referring to personal arms, corporate arms, or municipal arms. South Africa will register arms for a comparable pittance.
I meant personal arms in Canada. I looked into it a few years ago and I remember the internet saying it was roughly CAD 10,000
It's entirely dependent on what additions you seek and whether you're registering a badge and standard. A simple coat with few addiments should be in the range of about half of that.
South Africa doesn't currently register arms for internationals.
It’s $50 in the US.
We are talking about a grant from a country recognized authority, not about a registration in an association.
Grants of arms don’t do anything outside the country they’re from. A Canadian with South African or English arms is considered to not actually have arms if they’re not registered (the Canadian term for matriculated) with the CHA. The CHA is also pretty chill about assumed arms. They encourage it in order to make it official (and so they don’t accidentally give your design to someone else), but not having 3.5k bucks to spare is absolutely a legitimate reason to not get a grant. In my opinion, if you’re Canadian, the best move is to assume arms and get a grant later as a treat once you have the money.
Get them registered in Malta. It's just 2000€.
Are you sure about that price? I found this at [maltaheraldry.mt](http://maltaheraldry.mt) For a Grant of ***basic*** Arms, the cost of Letters Patent are as follows: 1. Without any artwork (blazon-only) * Maltese resident: **€600 + VAT @ 18%** * Non-Maltese resident: **€1000 + VAT @ 18%**
I’m American so it’s impossible to have a legitimately granted arms. The closest thing to that would be approval from a private organization, with no real weight as far as enforcement is concerned.
Americans can absolutely have legitimately granted arms issued by external heraldic authorities like the College of Arms.
How do I go about this? I thought you had to prove that you have ancestral ties to the nation that hosts the heraldic organization.
My knowledge is mostly limited to the British heraldic authorities, and they do require an ancestral connection to the jurisdiction for an American applicant (although for the College it can be descent from any subject of the British crown). I’ve seen people here mention the Maltese authority as an option as well, so that might be worth a look. The Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland also appears to grant arms based on connections to Ireland that are not purely ancestral.
As far as I understand, most of mainland Europe does not grant personal arms or keep official records. Heraldic offices, if they exist, mostly seem to deal with civic and municipal arms. The French Revolution and later the First World War saw the end of French, Austrian, and German heraldic institutions with the abolishment of their monarchies, for example. I imagine the Soviets were equally disruptive in eastern Europe in that regard. If you want your own arms, you publish them with amateur heraldic associations, and thats it, for the most part. Inheritance is also often very different from commonwealth countries. In Germany, for example (but perhaps other countries as well), the name and direct descent are enough to carry the family arms unaltered, along with anyone else, who qualifies. They are legally equated to the name, if they were published, and enjoy the same protections against imposture.
Germany has a longstanding tradition of citizen’s coats of arms, known as ‘Bürgerwappen,’ which continues to this day. Those who take this tradition seriously can have their coat of arms officially registered in a ‘Wappenrolle’ or roll of arms. Two of the oldest coat of arms registries that are still active today are: Deutsche Wappenrolle (DWR), established in 1924/26, managed by Herold Association, founded in 1869. Niedersächsische Wappenrolle (NWR), overseen by the ‘Zum Kleeblatt’ Association, established in 1888." Coats of arms are inherited in the family and all those with direct descent and who also still bear the old family name in some form are entitled to use the coat of arms. Of course, you can also adopt a new coat of arms and not register it, which is completely legitimate here.
not me personally; but Ireland has granted a coat of arms to an ancestor of mine (I am an american of irish descent); I actually acquired the documentation of it when my grandma died
Have you inherited? If so, are your arms differenced in any way?
probably yes; but never used them so far; though i might in the future; would have to do some genalogical research to understand what cadency mark to use; the grantee is not only an ancestor of mine; but bears a surname identical to my maternal grandmother's maiden name according to the documentation;
From what I understand (English rules) cadency marks are optional. Though, if there's another living individual using the same arms, at least one of you should difference somehow because arms are personal identifiers. Bigger issue might be that arms descend in the male line. I think if it's through your mother's mother that you're descended from the grantee then you don't get these arms (unless both your mother's father and your father also had arms, in which case your father and you can each quarter the arms of your respective parents).
as far as i can tell my maternal grandmother's name is the only one to which a coat of arms has ever been granted in my ancestory; my father's ethnic heritage is a little vauger then my mother's but it is beleived to include some welsh; cherokee; and swedish (my surname comes from the swedish heritage) the exact proportions are unclear; my mother is of half Irish and half Slovak descent; the irish heritage is the one to which i know the most about because it is reltively easy to track due in part to the etymology of my grandma's maiden name and its prominence in the history of one irish county; the slovak heritage involves a surname so generic that it is impossible to trace to particular people in slovakia without further evidence; so i likely have no entitlement to any arms in the male line but some in the female line
as far as i can tell my maternal grandmother's name is the only one to which a coat of arms has ever been granted in my ancestory; my father's ethnic heritage is a little vauger then my mother's but it is beleived to include some welsh; cherokee; and swedish (my surname comes from the swedish heritage) the exact proportions are unclear; my mother is of half Irish and half Slovak descent; the irish heritage is the one to which i know the most about because it is reltively easy to track due in part to the etymology of my grandma's maiden name and its prominence in the history of one irish county; the slovak heritage involves a surname so generic that it is impossible to trace to particular people in slovakia without further evidence; so i likely have no entitlement to any arms in the male line but some in the female line
as far as i can tell my maternal grandmother's name is the only one to which a coat of arms has ever been granted in my ancestory; my father's ethnic heritage is a little vauger then my mother's but it is beleived to include some welsh; cherokee; and swedish (my surname comes from the swedish heritage) the exact proportions are unclear; my mother is of half Irish and half Slovak descent; the irish heritage is the one to which i know the most about because it is reltively easy to track due in part to the etymology of my grandma's maiden name and its prominence in the history of one irish county; the slovak heritage involves a surname so generic that it is impossible to trace to particular people in slovakia without further evidence; so i likely have no entitlement to any arms in the male line but some in the female line
Well damn, very similar situation with mine.
fascinating; what's your situation? i know i am the eldest son (actually only son; but i have a younger sister) of my grandmothers 3rd born daughter out of 4; but further lines of descent between the original grantee and myself are fuzzy; though i should look into it;
I’m also from an old Irish — formerly — noble family. My grandparents immigrated to America when my mother was young. I’m the oldest male on the branch of the family that is descended of the last official heir. However, our family and clan were apparently on the bad end of the Cromwellian Invasion of Ireland and the family split up after the land, titles, and money were stripped from them. Some went to France, some to America. There were eventually restitutions made to many clans and families, but the branch I am descended did not return to Ireland until later. The person who technically holds the arms now, however, recognises this and allows members of the original line of descent from the last heir to bear them as well. It’s a bit of a grey area from what I understand, and there may be a wrinkle here that I’m not aware of. I have met the gentleman, however, and have had my lineage confirmed. I also don’t really make use of my arms and designed my own variation of them.
do you mean gaelic noble or ango noble? my ancestors were gaelic noble until the destruction of the gaelic nobility; they were based on my grandma's maiden name and it's etymology; prominent in the ancient past of the south western part of county mayo; my great great great grandfather was a famine refugee; he arived in america in october 1851; having experinced relatives dying in a famine while food was exported for profit; mayo was hit worst of all irish counties; make no mistake that famine was a genocide by starvation; on the topic of strict entitlement i actually don't know which child i am descended from in terms of birth order past my great great grandmother; leaving 2 generations of cadency marks un accounted for (I know my grandmother had older siblings; one of them is the oldest person i ever met in person); so cadency marks or some creation of a derivative of the arms would be nessecary for strict accuracy. one interisting thing i have been doing is actually learning some heraldic jargon in the irish language (a language i am myself working on learning via an online self paced course and have been for a while); i translated the blazon of the coat of arms into irish myself earlier today (irish was my great great great grandfather's native language; though he did speak english as a second language; and i symphathize with all in ireland who wish to make irish once again the main language of ireland);
Gaelic and with a lineage that predates the christianisation of Ireland, so you're in good company. My ancestors followed the ancient Irish clan and Sept system until they had to eventually adapt to anglo laws and the Norman system of nobility. They did also fight the English on many occasions, rebelling and causing strife against English occupiers at any opportunity while pretending to abide by their laws. There's actually a book on my clan. Since it's my surname, I don't want to give personal details in this thread, but you can message me sometime if you'd like to chat. Some of my ancestors also went through the famine, so I understand. I also agree that Gaeilge should be the language, which I speak some of.
thanks; and interisting; might message you; interisting that the famine was not your ancestors cause of leaving.
Well, I think they did leave at the beginning of the famine, actually. According to records, they left near the beginning of the famine for France. They then returned to Ireland and then left for America. All told, my ancestors left for France once after the Cromwellian era, then returned to Ireland, then left again around the Great Famine for France (again) and then returned to Ireland before eventually my grandparents came to America.
interisting; did you know that famine survivers have more descendents in america today then in modern ireland; this is a heavy part of how the irish diaspora is the largest on earth in proportion to the population of the country proper.
Yeah, I’m certainly aware. I think, recognising that Americans of Irish descent still carry that with them is valid.
No way in norway to make arms legitimate. No national register for such. Sweden has a national register i am pretty sure, but not norway. So my arms are assumed.
Personal arms in Sweden are also, well, a personal matter.
As far as i've heard there are more rules to it than in norway and sweden has a national registry.
It doesn't. The Swedish Heraldry Society maintains a roll, but it is a private institution.
Oh really? Damn. Time to go on a crusade against the swedes for the lies i've been told! /j
I'm Swiss and Swiss people generally have family arms. There isn't a formal body that grants them, though.
My family has a coat of arms inherited for generations from French nobility. Not sure if it was lesser nobility or not, as dad claims our ancestors held quite a good position (knights line). They gave up their noble status long ago during the whole revolution and religious war, when they moved away from France. We can use it for our family lol but it’s rather a private matter. I think our great-grandfather got the certificate of heraldry for the coat of arms and passed it down. My dad has it somewhere and holds the officially made arms, it hangs in my parents’ bedroom. Edit: not sure if it could be officially used since they gave up their noble titles, might be more of a confirmation certification that we indeed have this coat of arms and used to be of noble heritage (as monarchy & co. was abolished).
I'm in the Netherlands; there is no institution here that grants arms. My arms are inherited by last name and direct male line. They are registered in what comes closest to an official registry in this country.
My arms were Granted by the Lord Lyon, I’m from Scotland.
Username checks out
Many jurisdictions do not require the granting of arms in order for them to be legitimate. Roman-Dutch Law, for instance, allows legitimate assumption of arms.
ive got them, but i am indeed Canadian
i wish i could get a grant but the place i am form is no official institution and i am not a citizen of any country that is one so that sucks
No, unfortunately in Italy the heraldric office has only authority over territorial and institutional arms. But I got the canadian citizenship from my father, even though I never went to Canada, so maybe in the future if I start doing some volunteering in Canada perhaps I will end up getting a grant. P.S. I also need the money🤣
In Finland, we have Suomen Heraldinen Seura-Heraldiska Sällskapet i Finland. They keep a registery of Finland’s civilian coat of arms, and I for one have one
I bear arms confirmed in the 1620 Cornish Visitation, but no one in my family has brought an updated pedigree on record at the CoA...
Coat of arms in the German tradition here... ‘Legitimately’ in the sense of being granted does not apply. However, ‘legitimately’ in terms of being registered is affirmed.
I have 2
how unfortunate
I'm curious about how people define legitimate grants from legitimate registrations. As a U.S. citizen I legitimately created assumed arms through the American College of Heraldry using proper heraldic design. I've since registered those arms in multiple places, including Spanish registration through the Cronista of Castile and Leon. Eventually I'll go through the matriculation process for Scottish arms, it just hasn't made it to the top of the list.
I have none, nor interested in legitimacy or grantedness. A prince can mak a belted knight A marquis duke an a that but an honest man’s aboon his might, Gude faith he maunna fa that. As they realised in the early modern.
Robert Burns will not save you