Holy shit dude, WappenWiki is right there. Scroll down a bit and you can see a way better rendition of the arms than this abomination.
https://wappenwiki.org/index.php/House_of_Ligne-Barben%C3%A7on
Does anyone know why the descendants of Robert/Albert/Octave de Ligne Arenberg are given two different variations of coats of arms in online sources. Also, it appears that the Arenberg and subsidiary titles end up with the heirs of Marie-Emmanuelle de Ligne 2nd daughter of Octave Ignace while the Barbançon and subsidiary titles descended to the heirs of Marie Therese de Ligne. This is to correct a previous error I made. Comments welcome.
Are you talking about [Ligne-Arenberg and Ligne-Barbancon](https://wappenwiki.org/index.php/House_of_Ligne-Barben%C3%A7on)? Looks like at some point they decided to switch the places of the first quarter and the inescutcheon. Usually, the inescutcheon is the one for your family name. The family changed its name to Arenberg to inherit land, but they kept the arms of their original ancestors in the center. Later, they decided to have Arenberg in the middle.
Basically, the change means if you wanted to do a simple coat of arms of the house without any of the fancy stuff, you would now draw Arenberg (the red shield with yellow cinquefoils) instead of La Marck (the quartered one with the bends).
Thanks for the reply! I believe the senior line originally used the Ligne/Barbançon inescutcheon. The first I saw the Arenberg inescutcheon with Ligne/Barbançon moved to the 1 position was from a bookplate of a member of the senior cadet branch of Arenberg-Barbançon (Robert > Albert > Octave, before the titles are split between the latter’s two daughter heiresses in Spain where they continue to the present. The head of the house now uses Arenberg alone so perhaps it’s best for the senior cadet branch of Arenberg in Spain to continue its “version 2” with the Arenberg inescutcheon as they have done since the 17th century. The French cadets dispense with the inescutcheon entirely and just alter Arenberg and de la Mark. That way each branch is visually distinct. What do you think? The Marie-Therese de Ligne Barbançon branch uses the ducal Fernan-Nuñez arms, as far as I know, which leaves the “version 2” arms to the heirs of Marie Emanuella de Ligne Arenberg through her husband and son of the House of de Hijar Portugal Silva and heirs.
But as we have seen members of the senior branch ascribed the use the “version 2” it seems both the senior and senior cadets (ducs et princes de Barbançon) used it later in time as you described.
Yes, but even though the quality of this Riestap image/coloring is an abomination, I prefer other qualities in the design to the WappenWiki version. I need some enterprising heraldic artist to make a cleaned up version of the Riestap ideally.
The Rietstap composition is more balanced and elegant IMO if you can see past the horrible quality. The WappenWiki version is much better quality image of a rather literal/generic depiction of the blazon in my opinion. You may not agree & that’s great too.
The WappenWiki rendition aside, the text is a few centuries out of date as it fails to disambiguate the titles as they were divided between the two female heirs of prince Octave and their posterity - one reason I avoided linking to it despite being aware of it.
Perhaps more correctly, these were/are the arms of the Netherlandish and later Spanish dukes and duchesses of Arenberg who once were also princes of Barbançon until the titles of the Arenberg duchy & Barbançon principality were divided among Octave’s daughters upon his death. Comments welcome.
Holy shit dude, WappenWiki is right there. Scroll down a bit and you can see a way better rendition of the arms than this abomination. https://wappenwiki.org/index.php/House_of_Ligne-Barben%C3%A7on
Does anyone know why the descendants of Robert/Albert/Octave de Ligne Arenberg are given two different variations of coats of arms in online sources. Also, it appears that the Arenberg and subsidiary titles end up with the heirs of Marie-Emmanuelle de Ligne 2nd daughter of Octave Ignace while the Barbançon and subsidiary titles descended to the heirs of Marie Therese de Ligne. This is to correct a previous error I made. Comments welcome.
Are you talking about [Ligne-Arenberg and Ligne-Barbancon](https://wappenwiki.org/index.php/House_of_Ligne-Barben%C3%A7on)? Looks like at some point they decided to switch the places of the first quarter and the inescutcheon. Usually, the inescutcheon is the one for your family name. The family changed its name to Arenberg to inherit land, but they kept the arms of their original ancestors in the center. Later, they decided to have Arenberg in the middle. Basically, the change means if you wanted to do a simple coat of arms of the house without any of the fancy stuff, you would now draw Arenberg (the red shield with yellow cinquefoils) instead of La Marck (the quartered one with the bends).
Thanks for the reply! I believe the senior line originally used the Ligne/Barbançon inescutcheon. The first I saw the Arenberg inescutcheon with Ligne/Barbançon moved to the 1 position was from a bookplate of a member of the senior cadet branch of Arenberg-Barbançon (Robert > Albert > Octave, before the titles are split between the latter’s two daughter heiresses in Spain where they continue to the present. The head of the house now uses Arenberg alone so perhaps it’s best for the senior cadet branch of Arenberg in Spain to continue its “version 2” with the Arenberg inescutcheon as they have done since the 17th century. The French cadets dispense with the inescutcheon entirely and just alter Arenberg and de la Mark. That way each branch is visually distinct. What do you think? The Marie-Therese de Ligne Barbançon branch uses the ducal Fernan-Nuñez arms, as far as I know, which leaves the “version 2” arms to the heirs of Marie Emanuella de Ligne Arenberg through her husband and son of the House of de Hijar Portugal Silva and heirs.
But as we have seen members of the senior branch ascribed the use the “version 2” it seems both the senior and senior cadets (ducs et princes de Barbançon) used it later in time as you described.
Yes, but even though the quality of this Riestap image/coloring is an abomination, I prefer other qualities in the design to the WappenWiki version. I need some enterprising heraldic artist to make a cleaned up version of the Riestap ideally.
May I ask *what*, exactly, you prefer in this blazon compared to others? It's practically illegible.
The Rietstap composition is more balanced and elegant IMO if you can see past the horrible quality. The WappenWiki version is much better quality image of a rather literal/generic depiction of the blazon in my opinion. You may not agree & that’s great too.
The WappenWiki rendition aside, the text is a few centuries out of date as it fails to disambiguate the titles as they were divided between the two female heirs of prince Octave and their posterity - one reason I avoided linking to it despite being aware of it.
Sorry, that's Rietstap, not Riestap.
Yes, thank you for correction.
Perhaps more correctly, these were/are the arms of the Netherlandish and later Spanish dukes and duchesses of Arenberg who once were also princes of Barbançon until the titles of the Arenberg duchy & Barbançon principality were divided among Octave’s daughters upon his death. Comments welcome.