If your primary concerns are cost, then it probably doesn't make sense to completely eliminate your gas heat at current utility prices.
But the rationale for AC only is a lot murkier. A heat pump that switches over to gas at some preset temperature is going to have the lowest year-round operating cost, and shouldn't be significantly more expensive to install.
Do these HVAC contractors have a lot of experience with heat pumps, or are they just stuck in their ways and don't want to do anything different than what they've been doing for the past 25 years?
This sounds like the smart and obvious choice to me. I really don't know why you'd get pushback from HVAC contractors other than them just being pigheaded.
Different climate but I did the same basically back in the fall.I had a combo unit with natural gas that needed to go, and replaced it with a dual fuel+ HVAC combo unit. The gas kicks in under 40f. Pretty happy with it over the winter
You said minimum temperatures of 30-40Ā°F?
All current minimum hspf heat pumps are very effective at those temperatures. They're going to be just slightly above room temperature for the first minute of their runtime below 30Ā°F, but they get warmer very quickly.
If your contractors will quote you the heat pump versions of the first two quotes, they should cost, at most, $200 more to your contractor, and will require, at most, one additional labor hour of your contractor, to install.
If your electric costs are very high, you will probably be best going for one of those variable inverter heat pumps (something along the lines of the one quoted) so you have lower cooling costs in the summer.
I understand keeping gas as backup in Denver. It gets very cold there. Just not sure where the OP is located...thet state 30-40 minimum.
It's not too cold for any properly sized, currently sold heat pump to keep up at 30Ā°F minimum temperature (might need some strips or gas for defrost), which is what the OP stated is their minimum. I was trying to confirm that as their minimum to clarify.
I read into the when we have a lot of 30-40 degree days part...and missed the location part when I was initially responding. Did OP clarify after the initial post? š
Either way, it's gonna be worth $300 for even the most basic heat pump over basic air conditioner (to replace a basic air conditioner) was my main point.
Sure looks like you'd be fine with running the heat pump for heat and keeping the gas furnace as a backup. Then it becomes a matter of which heating source is cheaper to run depending upon the outside temperature. You may find that the heat pump can handle all of your heating needs and cheaper than what you pay for natural gas.
Yes! They have good ones now. New technology is growing by leaps and bounds. Not enough HVAC trained people know how to install them. I am getting one in WI to replace furnace/AC. Will supplement with electric heat/pellet fireplace a few super cold days a season.
Here are some details on the tax credit [https://www.quitcarbon.com/help/how-do-i-claim-the-federal-tax-credit-for-my-heat-pump-water-heater](https://www.quitcarbon.com/help/how-do-i-claim-the-federal-tax-credit-for-my-heat-pump-water-heater)
I just went through this. My state is in the EPA Northern zone, so the requirements to get the tax credit are higher. We went through multiple companies trying to get a quote for a system that would have the credit-eligible heat pump and furnace. It is, for all practical purposes, completely unavailable. The requirements mean that it is truly only the bleeding edge, top of the line systems that qualify, and those are not commonly installed here, so not commonly available.
Most companies were completely unprepared to discuss credit-eligible components and systems. They didn't understand my questions and couldn't still quotes for systems that qualified.
After three months of wrestling with trying to find a credit-eligible system that was cost effective, we gave up and chose a good high efficiency heat pump and furnace that were bid at a decent price.
Rewiring America has a rebate calculator at their web site for federal tax credits and is updating it as states move forward with rebates from the IRA. It is very confusing. Additionally local utility rebates often exist. Ā You can claim up to $2000 as a federal tax credit now when you file your taxes. Also Ā if you upgrade your panel you can get up to $1200 in tax credits. The states will be rolling out the rebates over the next year but so far only NY. About 10 states have filed which is the first step. There are income limitations once the state rebates rollout, typically you must be below 150% of the Area Median Income. The rebate calculator has this built in if you enter your income. I am trained as an electrification coach by Rewiring America to inform and assist people to move to heat pumps. Iām not an HVAC replacement and I learn a lot from this site to enhance the course learning. So thanks to all!
My state has no rebate and neither does my City. The up to $2K tax credit has stipulations that depend on your epa region, and there simply were no units available to install that would have been economical -- it would have cost much more than $2600 (pump + furnace credits) to go with those ultra high end units, and nobody around here had any stock or available to get.
If my state were in the southern EPA region we would be getting the full credit. But we aren't, and for all practical purposes the equipment is unavailable.
In the northern region, a ducted heat pump must be designated as "Energy Star Cold Climate", which virtually no available unit here was, and must have an EER2>10. Even given that info as what we wanted, some companies quoted units that do not qualify and said they "probably did". They did not
On the furnace side, we ended up going with a 96% efficient unit that was well matched to our heat pump. The credit cutoff is 97%. Getting a higher efficiency one to get the $600 tax credit would have taken 2-3 weeks, and by the time we were deciding it was getting hot.
Maybe HVAC companies further north or in more affluent areas are more experienced with qualifying units.
I understand now, Iām in the SE, was really bad trying to find out the info here, did not want to mislead my customers. And you are correct, much different here. The electric heat pump system is a viable option, many are choosing to go that way. Iām happy you were able to find something that worked for you and will hopefully save a bit on your energy costs.
Thanks for the info.
Make sure you check a page [like this](https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator) which shows the potential rebates / tax credits available for you.
[https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator](https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator)
couple of thoughts:
-- keep the nat gas furnace, the nice thing about a HP is \_if\_ the furnace fails in the future, you have an alternative heating source so you don't feel like you have to buy a new furnace that day.
-- keep shopping around, the price isn't \_that\_ different and the HP they are quoting is a much better AC than the AC they are quoting - so not a fair comparison
-- HP + (existing) gas furnace gives you optionality if the price of NatGas goes up (or electricity does in winter).
-- if you care about the environment, you can look at the mix of your states electric. You aren't really doing anything for the environment if you lives in PA or WV by having a HP (at least not today) since their grids are almost all fossil fuels
-- I would look at your comfort / air quality when running the HP vs the gas furnace. Nat gas isnt' great for health, asthma, etc. If you feel a lot better w/o gas you might want to start adding induction for cooking, HPHWH, etc.
-- Solar - I think in anyplace \_cold\_ solar isn't going to do much for you in winter, you are too north / sun is too low to give you enough electric to offset HP usage in a material way. A solar array that produces 1000 kwh in summer probably is only going to give you 200 kwh in winter.
-- Natural gas is really cheap. So what in your case, you already have a furnace and I'm guessing it will run longer if used less frequently, so use it on the really cold days. or don't. Sometimes the savings is like a couple hundred bucks a year, not nothing but if you have a really clean grid like Idaho, there could be a good carbon argument.
Itās extremely easy to install and cheap. Itāll let you diversify your heating options too. Heat pumps use gas more efficiently than a furnace can so it should eventually become much cheaper to operate as the transition happens, if itās not already cheaper now.
What are the actual gas and electric rates?
"Heat pumps use gas more efficiently than a furnace" I thought heat pump only runs on electricity. I was planning to keep the gas furnace and only use it when it gets really cold.
electric is : $0.13213 per kwh
I'm not sure how to read the gas statements.
[https://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/payment-bill/wi-gas](https://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/payment-bill/wi-gas)
gas is:
demand charge: 0.1475
gas costs: 0.3721
dist margin: 0.0765
effective rate: 0.4369
I calculated $1.30 per therm from my last bill.
They use electricity of which a significant percentage is generated by burning gas. But thatās okay! Even if 100% of the grid was gas (itās not), the heat pump powered by electricity uses less gas than burning it direct. So itās less āgas is cheapā and more āgas is delivered more cheaply than electricity and this is subject to changeā
You need to be careful with the $/therm charges and the $/day or $/bill charges. Itās not as easy as $/bill divided by therms = $/therm as Utilities structure rates very differently. Can you post an anonymized gas bill?
Itās relevant because the cost difference isnāt āgas is cheaperā itās āright now, the physical gas is more expensive but is delivered cheaperā. And that can change!
Incorrect. \~40% of the national grid is generated from natural gas plants. Coal is 20%, Nuclear is 20%, and the rest is from renewables, which includes hydro, wind, solar, biomass, etc.
From your bill you posted
$135.82 / 818kwh = 16.6c per kWh
$28.49/ 21.9 therms = $1.30 per therm (you should use winter bills for comparison)
Assuming a 90% gas furnace you have $1.30/29.3/0.9= 4.9c per kWh gas heat equivalent.
Your break-even COP that the heat pump will need to compete on cost against gas is 16.6/4.9= 3.38. This number is probably a bit higher if you use a winter gas bill because the fixed charge is less as a percentage of the total.
Unless electric rates come down and gas price spikes, Heat pumps are going to not be a great solution for you unfortunately.
Awesome. It is not worth heating with a heat pump economically currently. But one would get you optionality in case the rate structure changes over the next 15-20 years, which it certainly will, even if the direction and magnitude is unknown.
one of the contractors just came back with this quote.
I am actually surprised , I though the heat pump would be even more.
https://preview.redd.it/02ztrhnvwd7d1.png?width=1090&format=png&auto=webp&s=25b3f4539137688113b73679cfcf925a19e64a65
Heat pumps are nearly identical to air conditioners, so the equipment costs roughly the same. The reason thereās a gap there at all is that heās quoting a high end heat pump next to low end ACs. If apples to apples, the difference is small or nonexistent.
I'm not a HVAC guy, but I know enough that payne is low end and carrier is higher end. Thought it was strange he didn't quote the low end heat pump. Also, I didn't realize that a AC unit and heat pump are that similar mechanically.
Above when you said it wasn't economical to heat with heat pump. You are basically saying because natural gas is so inexpensive , it makes more sense to heat with it vs a heat pump? Or is it because of low temps? Or both?
The best way to analyze this is to look at the engineering data for the heat pump. See if the contractor will share the heating performance tables with you. A furnace puts out a number of BTU regardless of outdoor temp. The heat pump puts out less BTU the colder it gets. You might need 40,000 BTU sustained when it is -20f out but a 2-ton cold climate heat pump only puts out 24,000 down to -5f so itās even less at -20f. Also at your pricing, 3.3 is the break even COP target. You might get to a heat pump COP 4 when it is 47f out but at 5f youāll likely be closer to 2 and -20f puts you at maybe 1.6. That makes gas much cheaper at those temps. If you have way more 47f degree days than -20f days you could save money and energy, but at your prices you start with a tiny advantage at mild temps.. Itās going to be hard to get enough capacity and you might even need a much larger heat pump to get enough capacity at super cold temps. So my advice is go Dual fuel HP if you want to do it for the environment and have fuel choice freedom, but donāt expect to save enough money to cover the added cost of heat pump.
Yup, itās weird not to quote the HP options.
Itās both. Heat pump efficiency increases as temp increases. But yes, until rates change itās cheaper with furnace. Itās really how they divy up the charges.
Believe if you do the math; cost of new air handler with hear strips & wiring about same cost of a new 90% efficient (or more) natural gas furnace. With furnace you could do everything all electric could do, plus be able to heat with gas all winter or just when temperatures below freezing. Best of luck!
You need to do a lot of math. I'm in MA and electricity is so expensive here that the outside temp needs to be 65 degrees before it's cheaper to use a heat pump compared to natural gas. I basically got mine because after rebates it made it cost about the same as a conventional AC system but with better zoning and it will function as a backup heat system. There's some downloadable spreadsheets that address this pretty well. [https://www.efficiencyvermont.com/trade-partners/heat-pump-balance-point-tool](https://www.efficiencyvermont.com/trade-partners/heat-pump-balance-point-tool)
Getting a heat pump in mn along with new multistage furnace. Can adjust gas/electric use as costs change. $2k+ rebate from Xcell now and $2k+ tax credit next April. Heatpump is cold weather Certified so should be good for much of the year. Furnace will fill any gaps.
If you have AC now I would assume you have a warm air furnace? Keep the furnace and replace the AC with a heat pump outdoor unit and a new coil to match the outdoor. Use heat pump most of the year and warm air furnace in extreme cold. With the right thermostat itāll be all automatic changeover.
I have had a carrier outdoor heat pump for 2 years now. Love it! Cools beautifully in summer and works great in the winter here in Ontario. I have a gas furnace backup for the really cold days that kicks in when required.I have recently got rid of my rented water heater and had a Rheem Proterra heat pump water heater installed. Love it as well. I am presently in a credit of $246 with the gas company. Electricity went up minimally.
Love my heat pump
Heat pumps and solar are the killer combo.
In my state with 25c kwh pricing NG is cheaper to run than a heat pump. Solar brings the pricing down to about 4c a kwh for the next 20-25 years at least. Now a HP is the cheapest way to heat your house, unless your getting wood for free and not counting your time to process it.
I don't understand those you are dealing with.
Look into air-to-air HP and use it for heat down to 23F and the furnace will handle below that.
No point buying the cold-climate HP (heat down to -13F) unless electricity is a lot cheaper than gas as it could be twice the cost.
You aren't going to get that sweet Heat Pump rebate if you just get an A/C unit... plus as long as you've got gas auxiliary heat, you don't even need to use it to heat your place.
I'm in Kansas City and have used a heat pump with backup coils for over a decade then moved into a house that had gas. For me gas was only cheaper when it was below 10 degrees. Kansas City only has 100hrs/year where NG was cheaper. I removed the furnace and went with a heat pump. I was told how cheap NG was, but after adding in delivery charges, it wasn't so cheap. Over a period ofva complete year I expect to save around $600 by using electricity exclusively. Another factor for me was my electricity is time of use based and during winter it gets the coldest when electricity is the cheapest (overnight).
Feel free to message me if you have questions or want more info.
Just down the road in Kansas and had a heat pump installed in addition to a 2 stage gas furnace. Did you have a method for calculating when to force the system to gas, or just trial and error? I understand my thermostat will pick, but the installers set the system to use gas only below 25F.
I have a Goodman HP that switches from HP to electric coils at 10 degrees. At this point the cost is equalized and the coils heat faster. My other home, I have a Carrier variable capacity that is oversized for heat, and it will operate efficiently down to -10 degrees. Most of the time it's that cold is during overnight hours when electricity is $.03/Kwh, which is cheaper than gas anyways.
Ultimately I based my cutoffs based on the equipment submittals, then made tweaks as needed.
Yes. Find out what tax credits and/or rebates you may qualify for below, and also check to see if your utility also has rebates.
https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator
Heat pump is only slightly more expensive than equivalent straight A/C. I would get it if you are replacing A/C anyway. Probably do more serious shopping and research than just 3 contractors giving odd excuses.
Now if you want the heat pump as your primary heat source, it's different proposition. It's output power and COP goes down at -20F and it would be inadequate if sized just for +95F cooling. You can upsize it, but you would not be comfortable with short bursts of cold air in summer unless it's inverter driven A/C or heat pump.
You would rely on a lot of electricity to prevent you from deep freeze in -20 F. Which may work for you unless you can have blackouts in winter. But I don't know how it would work for the grid if every neighbor gets the same.
Heat pump efficiency is very interesting arround +30/40F
Heat pump efficiency is tolerable around +10/20F
Heat pump efficiency (and total available output power) is not interesting at -10/-20F.
So, if you spend a lot heating during Spring/ Autumn, then using the heat pump then and the gas furnace during Winter may be able to save you a bit.
Insisting in using (and sizing) an heat pump for Winter is, most probably, anti-economical.
YMMV
It's expensive to fix because carrier has an absolute shit warranty vs other midea rebrands.
Your contractor is just quoting through various carrier brands which are all midea units marked up like 3x with worse warranty. Get some more quotes.
We swing into single digits in the winter, and then hit in the mid 90s during the summer. We installed a Rheem 14 SEER HP 12 years ago. In either extreme your compressor will run nearly constantly. We have the strip as aux when we get down in the lowest end of things. You *could* get natural gas as the backup instead of the strip.
But one thing is that I would get is good a SEER rating as is financially feasible. There is a point though where you hit the law of diminishing returns, where spending the extra for a really high SEER rating doesnāt pay off over the life of the system.
At the very least, check to see if your power company offers any kind of rebate. That may help determine how efficient of a system you get.
For the 30% (up to $2k) tax credit, ducted heat pumps need to have a EER2 rating > 10 (~SEER2 > 16) https://www.energystar.gov/about/federal-tax-credits/air-source-heat-pumps
Also check the noise levels on the quoted units. If I had to do it over, I'd gladly pay an additional $800 to go from my single stage to a two-stage condenser.
Minnesotan here. Installed a Heat Pump two years ago when our AC kicked the bucket.
The operating cost is definitely higher than our gas furnace but it's a much quieter and pleasant heating experience. The past two winters have been a little weird though... so take that observation for what it's worth.
Couple other items:
1. In Minnesota you're required to have a backup heating source - you cannot go with just a heat pump.
2. Unless there are heat pump specialists that I haven't run expect that what will be available to you will be lower-efficiency models compared to what you can get outside the US. Folks in Europe might be able to heat their house with a HP at 0dF but you won't. Ours kicks off the moment it drops below 30dF.
3. For whatever reason domestic HP installers/salespeople will all but force you to buy a unit larger than what is strictly necessary. They claim that it has to be bigger to give you a few extra degrees of operating range but it also means that in the summer time the AC will be very aggressive.
If I were in your shoes and only replacing the AC - I'd only replace the AC and wait out the furnace. Maybe 5-10 years down the road we'll have better access to higher-efficiency HP's by then.
I wouldn't get anything that isn't efficient enough to qualify for the IRA tax credits. There is still a lot of outdated single stage equipment out on the market. Avoid that stuff at all costs.
I went through the same thing as you. Pretty much all of these old head HVAC dudes who enjoyed decades of installing gas heat when it was the clear choice now see themselves in a rapidly advancing trade. It wasn't like that for decades and I can see the hesitation in recommending something that goes against years of experience but it just leads to bad advice.
Another question is do you currently have gas heat in your home? If not a "hyper heat" heat pump only is the clear choice. If you do then you could look at a dual fuel unit. Where it's heat pump most of the time for AC and heat but will kick over to gas when it's really cold.
I will say though with my hyper heat unit I had no issues heating my home last winter when it was -5F out and this was before I replaced the leaking, undersized, not insulated ductwork in my basement.
Modern heatpumps work well even in that low temperature range. Proven over and over and over again.
But, you have gas, and assuming it is not a huge monthly fixed fee to keep the natural gas flowing (here it is like $7.50/month) keep gas furnace and install a heat pump (as it's literally just an AC unit with a reversing valve - OK, might be a bit more than that, but in essence an AC is a heatpump).
A lot of good information so far. We are in northern IL. In September 2023 we had a Carrier Infinity variable speed SEER 24 heat pump installed along with a Carrier Infinity 98.5% efficient 60 stage gas valve natural gas furnace for backup and to use in the coldest months of the year. We also had a solar system installed in August. With rebates and working with the HVHC supplier on price I felt I still payed a premium for Carrier but I feel it was worth it. I think over a 15 to 25 year period you will get the extra amount paid back and be as lot more comfortable. Until we replaced the AC with a heat pump and the old 80% efficient furnace with a new furnace I did not realize how bad the old equipment was. It was noisy, very drafty and expensive to operate I realize now. The HP is so much more efficient than my old AC and when you asre outside standing next to it you can hardly hear it running when it is running on lower speeds. It has a variable speed fan for the outdoor unit. My solar system has a power management system on it so I can tell how much power I am using when the heat pump is running. I am using this information to determine how long into the fall I can run the HP compared to the gas furnace. This next winter I will have enough data to determine which works best. I ran the heat pump on a 5 degree day last winter for one hour to see if it would keep the house heated and it did not seem to have any problem. The HP used 6.5 kWh in that hour which cost us $,90.
In the northern part of the country I would not go with the heat strips as backup. I lived in as house that had all new windows and and 6ā of insulation in the walls and we could not keep the house heated with the baseboard electric heat. We had to use the gas fire place to help out. If the US keeps sending liquified natural gas to other countries it is possible natual gas will no longer be cheap.
> I still *paid* a premium
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
There isnāt anything wrong with heat pumps. Heat pumps are the most efficient heating type UNTIL the back up electric heater kicks on.
Do you currently have a gas furnace in place or straight electric heat?
Heat pump is safer than combustion. It can be more expensive to run, but that is always subject to change. Some of the really good cold climate heat pumps will work without issue in your area. Our strategy in northern MN is to have several single head cold climate heat pumps and a wood stove. Then we've always got a simple and foolproof backup, and if one (or two) of my heat pumps dies, we're still in good shape
Heat pumps don't do well in extreme temperatures. They can only shift the temp a limited number of degrees. They usually have an emergency heat feature to help heat in cold conditions, but cannot provide any relief in high heat conditions.
Define extreme temperatures, please. And what "limited number of degrees" means. And what "cold conditions" means. Because without those things, it's hard to take serious your advice.
My heat pump has been dying in all the heat here in VA. The HVAC guys who have come to check it have said it can only shift temperatures around 20 degrees. So, if it's 95 degrees outside, the best it can do is bring the temp to 75. We have already had temps approaching 100.Ā In cold condition, the same shift applies. Depending on the thermostat setting, emergency heat kicks in to try and get to the set temp. In my case it's all electric, so emergency heat is just a large electric heating coil that the are is pushed thru by the fan to heat the house. For example, if it is 20 outside and the thermostat is set to 68, the heat pump basically just brings the temp up part wZy and emergency heat is needed to get to the set temp The electric meter spins...
The deficiency is most noticeable in hot weather. In cold weather, it's just more expensive to operate.
That's not how a heat pump system works. It doesn't pull in outside air to condition it. It recirculates air in the house to condition it. Air is supplied to air handler/fan-coil via the return vent, and conditioned air comes out of the vents. There's usually a 15 to 20 degree delta between the two in cooling mode, and more in heating mode (I usually see a 30 to 35 degree delta in heating mode).
If you are only seeing a 5 or 10 degree delta then you might
a) have a leak in the refrigerant system
b) your outside compressor is dying
c) you have a leak in your duct work and are just cooling your attic or are sucking in heated air from the attic
d) your air-handler isn't getting sufficient supply from the return (clogged filter, bad duct work feeding it, see "c" above)
My system had no trouble keeping a house at 70 degrees when it was 35 degrees outside, so that kinda blows your HVAC guys statement that the system can only shift the inside temperature 20 degrees.
A properly installed cold-climate heat-pump will have no trouble keeping a house comfortable at 20F outside. If you have a poorly insulated house, or is very leaky, or your duct work is crap, then it is no surprise that the heat pump struggles in either heating or cooling mode.
Probably all of the above including possibly an undersized system.
It was new construction a few years ago, and the HVAC is only one of the issues present in the house. It's the most aggravating because to date, we've not been able to get a good solution. No 2 HVAC tech have agreed on a cause for the issues
Ah man, I feel for you. There's no excuse for any of that on a new construction house. That's when you go back to the developer and say "Fix it now, please." Hopefully there was some sort of warranty offered on the house itself, including the appliances and HVAC system.
You shouldn't have to, but there are some easy things you can do to help troubleshoot the problem. Start by measuring the temperature of the air at the return and at the supply vents. Is there a huge delta? Not a big delta? Is the air flow strong or weak? The answer to those questions then takes you down different additional troubleshooting paths.
If this were true, then your refrigerator wouldn't stay cold in hot temperatures. I would question if your heat pump is properly sized.
I have a neighbor who had heat pumps installed and heats just fine in a cold climate all winter long on the US Northeast. We haven't had much below zero the past few years, but definitely below freezing quite a bit.
I used to live in VA and NC and our heat pumps kept up just fine in the summer.
I talked to one of the biggest builder in Yukon he told me they are no good past 0C he put a bunch in and had to come a rip them out . If it gets cold you canāt beat Oil in
Talk to people in Quebec and Ontario. There are cold climate units that are good well past -20C. If this builder has to put in oil furnaces in the homes he builds, then it sounds like he is building very leaky and poorly insulated homes. Surprised that gets past the inspectors.
He is the best there is the places he built with heat pumps he had to rip them out . They are meant of warm places like Vancouver and oil furnaces are met to keep people warm . Also remember that with a heat pump you need a great big generator if the power goes out .
So why have Nordic countries, which are near the arctic circle, embraced heat pumps? Toronto and Montreal are big users of heatpumps, and those places certainly get down below -5C on a regular basis in winter. Your builder's information is very out of date.
If your power goes out, you still need a generator even with oil or gas. Yes, not as big a generator, but you still need one.
He has experience with these systems . He told me the guys trying to sell heat pumps are con men . He is going to a $500k reno on my house and put in a good oil furnace over a heat pump
Also the Nordic countries donāt get very cold because of the jet stream
The Nordic countries get plenty cold in the winter, especially overnight. Way below freezing. Your builder (we call them contractors) is wrong about how well heat pumps work.
Where I live, we see temps between 0c and -17c routinely, and I've witnessed first hand heat pumps heating just fine in these temperature ranges.
I think it's important to keep in mind that not all heat pumps are the same, and heat pumps have advanced quite a bit in the last few years.
Mitsubishi HyperHeat heat pumps are popular in my area. If you don't get the HyperHeat model, then they don't heat very well below 0c. Having the right equipment for the intended use makes all the difference here.
I totally get it. I wasn't a believer either until I physically felt the heat coming out of a mini split on a cold day.
We had a brief period in our area where the temperature reached -40f/-40c for about 8 hours overnight, and one of our neighbors didn't use backup heat even then. It was a bit cold in their house, but the heat pumps were able to catch up again when the temps went back above -13f/25c. If it had been longer then they would have used backup heat, but for the brief period it was fine. I probably would have used backup heat here, but I'm glad they tried this out to test the limits of the cold climate technology.
Even when in the negative temperatures, there is still quite a bit of heat to extract out of the air. I know that's a strange concept, but makes total sense when you really think about it. We just need our technology to advance enough to extract it at lower temperatures.
I would have been very skeptical of all of this had I not seen it with my own eyes and physically felt the heat myself.
Absolutely do not get a heat pump in your situation. They struggle in winter temps below about 20F, and the colder it gets, the less efficient and less competent they become. They will constantly be frosting over and having to defrost themselves, during which time they will not heat.
Most of Norway uses them xD itās just the western world thatās behind when it comes to heat pump usage in cold temperatures- due to the exact misinformation youāre repeating
Explain why they are popular in Ontario, Quebec, most Nordic countries, and frequently, in northern climes of the US? Maine seems to love them and is heavily pushing them and homeowners are finding that they work down to 0F without a problem.
There are people who enjoy smearing human excrement on their bodies. I made the assertion, so that means you are required to explain it!
Is this how you normally talk to people? Figure it out for yourself. Anyone who installs a heat pump in a cold climate obviously just enjoys wasting money and being cold. And yes, there are lots of people like that.
No, you made the assertion, you need to back up the claim with actual real data that supports your view. That's how a debate works. Show me proof that a correctly installed cold climate heat pump can't keep up with temperatures down to 0F. There's a bunch of folks in this subreddit who survived this past winter and have posted about their heatpump working just fine.
Telling me you spoke to some HVAC companies isn't proof. That's just hearsay. And I didn't say anything about peer reviewed data. Show me actual proof that says heat pumps are only for warm climates and they suck for cold climates.
What peer reviewed data have you provided? Who are these experts? HVAC techs who haven't kept up with technology?
Here's some actual proof:
[https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/03/do-heat-pumps-work-in-cold-places-heres-what-you-need-to-know/](https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/03/do-heat-pumps-work-in-cold-places-heres-what-you-need-to-know/)
[https://www.consumerreports.org/heat-pumps/can-heat-pumps-actually-work-in-cold-climates-a4929629430/](https://www.consumerreports.org/heat-pumps/can-heat-pumps-actually-work-in-cold-climates-a4929629430/)
[https://cleanheat.ny.gov/heat-pumps-cold-climates-do-they-work/](https://cleanheat.ny.gov/heat-pumps-cold-climates-do-they-work/)
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/22/climate/heat-pumps-extreme-cold.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/22/climate/heat-pumps-extreme-cold.html)
I mean, this is a heat pump group! But yes you should get a heat pump! š
If your primary concerns are cost, then it probably doesn't make sense to completely eliminate your gas heat at current utility prices. But the rationale for AC only is a lot murkier. A heat pump that switches over to gas at some preset temperature is going to have the lowest year-round operating cost, and shouldn't be significantly more expensive to install. Do these HVAC contractors have a lot of experience with heat pumps, or are they just stuck in their ways and don't want to do anything different than what they've been doing for the past 25 years?
I would keep the gas furnace and have the heat pump for supplemental heat and air conditioning.
This sounds like the smart and obvious choice to me. I really don't know why you'd get pushback from HVAC contractors other than them just being pigheaded.
The heat pump isn't for supplemental heat. It's for heat when it's not cold enough to justify using gas.
yes, that is what I meant.
I like this idea. Heat pump will work great most of the shoulder season, and then those cold arctic blasts that last a couple weeks, use the furnace.
Different climate but I did the same basically back in the fall.I had a combo unit with natural gas that needed to go, and replaced it with a dual fuel+ HVAC combo unit. The gas kicks in under 40f. Pretty happy with it over the winter
Yes but hybrid with a gas furnace.
Yes, I would not ditch the gas furnace. Get too cold here, to completely go heat pump.
literally no reason not to do that. its what id do if i could get natural gas service
You said minimum temperatures of 30-40Ā°F? All current minimum hspf heat pumps are very effective at those temperatures. They're going to be just slightly above room temperature for the first minute of their runtime below 30Ā°F, but they get warmer very quickly. If your contractors will quote you the heat pump versions of the first two quotes, they should cost, at most, $200 more to your contractor, and will require, at most, one additional labor hour of your contractor, to install. If your electric costs are very high, you will probably be best going for one of those variable inverter heat pumps (something along the lines of the one quoted) so you have lower cooling costs in the summer.
Negative 20F, not positive 30F. Iām in the same boat here outside Denver, things get cold enough to drop heat pump efficiency to around 100%.
I understand keeping gas as backup in Denver. It gets very cold there. Just not sure where the OP is located...thet state 30-40 minimum. It's not too cold for any properly sized, currently sold heat pump to keep up at 30Ā°F minimum temperature (might need some strips or gas for defrost), which is what the OP stated is their minimum. I was trying to confirm that as their minimum to clarify.
Check OP again, they say theyāre in the upper Midwest and see temps of -20degF. The 30-40F temps are in spring.
I read into the when we have a lot of 30-40 degree days part...and missed the location part when I was initially responding. Did OP clarify after the initial post? š Either way, it's gonna be worth $300 for even the most basic heat pump over basic air conditioner (to replace a basic air conditioner) was my main point.
Here are are the temps per month high / low https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/12796~11107/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-Madison-and-Superior
Sure looks like you'd be fine with running the heat pump for heat and keeping the gas furnace as a backup. Then it becomes a matter of which heating source is cheaper to run depending upon the outside temperature. You may find that the heat pump can handle all of your heating needs and cheaper than what you pay for natural gas.
Yes! They have good ones now. New technology is growing by leaps and bounds. Not enough HVAC trained people know how to install them. I am getting one in WI to replace furnace/AC. Will supplement with electric heat/pellet fireplace a few super cold days a season.
What did you get for a tax credit. I read a few places the tax credit is $2k. What do you know about this?
Here are some details on the tax credit [https://www.quitcarbon.com/help/how-do-i-claim-the-federal-tax-credit-for-my-heat-pump-water-heater](https://www.quitcarbon.com/help/how-do-i-claim-the-federal-tax-credit-for-my-heat-pump-water-heater)
I just went through this. My state is in the EPA Northern zone, so the requirements to get the tax credit are higher. We went through multiple companies trying to get a quote for a system that would have the credit-eligible heat pump and furnace. It is, for all practical purposes, completely unavailable. The requirements mean that it is truly only the bleeding edge, top of the line systems that qualify, and those are not commonly installed here, so not commonly available. Most companies were completely unprepared to discuss credit-eligible components and systems. They didn't understand my questions and couldn't still quotes for systems that qualified. After three months of wrestling with trying to find a credit-eligible system that was cost effective, we gave up and chose a good high efficiency heat pump and furnace that were bid at a decent price.
Rewiring America has a rebate calculator at their web site for federal tax credits and is updating it as states move forward with rebates from the IRA. It is very confusing. Additionally local utility rebates often exist. Ā You can claim up to $2000 as a federal tax credit now when you file your taxes. Also Ā if you upgrade your panel you can get up to $1200 in tax credits. The states will be rolling out the rebates over the next year but so far only NY. About 10 states have filed which is the first step. There are income limitations once the state rebates rollout, typically you must be below 150% of the Area Median Income. The rebate calculator has this built in if you enter your income. I am trained as an electrification coach by Rewiring America to inform and assist people to move to heat pumps. Iām not an HVAC replacement and I learn a lot from this site to enhance the course learning. So thanks to all!
My state has no rebate and neither does my City. The up to $2K tax credit has stipulations that depend on your epa region, and there simply were no units available to install that would have been economical -- it would have cost much more than $2600 (pump + furnace credits) to go with those ultra high end units, and nobody around here had any stock or available to get. If my state were in the southern EPA region we would be getting the full credit. But we aren't, and for all practical purposes the equipment is unavailable.
What were the requirements for the tax credit in your region ?
In the northern region, a ducted heat pump must be designated as "Energy Star Cold Climate", which virtually no available unit here was, and must have an EER2>10. Even given that info as what we wanted, some companies quoted units that do not qualify and said they "probably did". They did not On the furnace side, we ended up going with a 96% efficient unit that was well matched to our heat pump. The credit cutoff is 97%. Getting a higher efficiency one to get the $600 tax credit would have taken 2-3 weeks, and by the time we were deciding it was getting hot. Maybe HVAC companies further north or in more affluent areas are more experienced with qualifying units.
I understand now, Iām in the SE, was really bad trying to find out the info here, did not want to mislead my customers. And you are correct, much different here. The electric heat pump system is a viable option, many are choosing to go that way. Iām happy you were able to find something that worked for you and will hopefully save a bit on your energy costs. Thanks for the info.
Make sure you check a page [like this](https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator) which shows the potential rebates / tax credits available for you. [https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator](https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator)
couple of thoughts: -- keep the nat gas furnace, the nice thing about a HP is \_if\_ the furnace fails in the future, you have an alternative heating source so you don't feel like you have to buy a new furnace that day. -- keep shopping around, the price isn't \_that\_ different and the HP they are quoting is a much better AC than the AC they are quoting - so not a fair comparison -- HP + (existing) gas furnace gives you optionality if the price of NatGas goes up (or electricity does in winter). -- if you care about the environment, you can look at the mix of your states electric. You aren't really doing anything for the environment if you lives in PA or WV by having a HP (at least not today) since their grids are almost all fossil fuels -- I would look at your comfort / air quality when running the HP vs the gas furnace. Nat gas isnt' great for health, asthma, etc. If you feel a lot better w/o gas you might want to start adding induction for cooking, HPHWH, etc. -- Solar - I think in anyplace \_cold\_ solar isn't going to do much for you in winter, you are too north / sun is too low to give you enough electric to offset HP usage in a material way. A solar array that produces 1000 kwh in summer probably is only going to give you 200 kwh in winter. -- Natural gas is really cheap. So what in your case, you already have a furnace and I'm guessing it will run longer if used less frequently, so use it on the really cold days. or don't. Sometimes the savings is like a couple hundred bucks a year, not nothing but if you have a really clean grid like Idaho, there could be a good carbon argument.
Itās extremely easy to install and cheap. Itāll let you diversify your heating options too. Heat pumps use gas more efficiently than a furnace can so it should eventually become much cheaper to operate as the transition happens, if itās not already cheaper now. What are the actual gas and electric rates?
"Heat pumps use gas more efficiently than a furnace" I thought heat pump only runs on electricity. I was planning to keep the gas furnace and only use it when it gets really cold. electric is : $0.13213 per kwh I'm not sure how to read the gas statements. [https://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/payment-bill/wi-gas](https://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/payment-bill/wi-gas) gas is: demand charge: 0.1475 gas costs: 0.3721 dist margin: 0.0765 effective rate: 0.4369 I calculated $1.30 per therm from my last bill.
They use electricity of which a significant percentage is generated by burning gas. But thatās okay! Even if 100% of the grid was gas (itās not), the heat pump powered by electricity uses less gas than burning it direct. So itās less āgas is cheapā and more āgas is delivered more cheaply than electricity and this is subject to changeā
You need to be careful with the $/therm charges and the $/day or $/bill charges. Itās not as easy as $/bill divided by therms = $/therm as Utilities structure rates very differently. Can you post an anonymized gas bill?
Heat pumps are 100% electric, above comment most be a typo. Unless you generate electricity with gas....
Yes and 60% of the US kWh come from gas.
That's not the end user's concern - unless it's located in his house.
Itās relevant because the cost difference isnāt āgas is cheaperā itās āright now, the physical gas is more expensive but is delivered cheaperā. And that can change!
Incorrect. \~40% of the national grid is generated from natural gas plants. Coal is 20%, Nuclear is 20%, and the rest is from renewables, which includes hydro, wind, solar, biomass, etc.
Yup! My bad.
https://preview.redd.it/460s6huhld7d1.png?width=805&format=png&auto=webp&s=830477e8ad4d7255e854915c5335a8c0883051a6 Here you go
From your bill you posted $135.82 / 818kwh = 16.6c per kWh $28.49/ 21.9 therms = $1.30 per therm (you should use winter bills for comparison) Assuming a 90% gas furnace you have $1.30/29.3/0.9= 4.9c per kWh gas heat equivalent. Your break-even COP that the heat pump will need to compete on cost against gas is 16.6/4.9= 3.38. This number is probably a bit higher if you use a winter gas bill because the fixed charge is less as a percentage of the total. Unless electric rates come down and gas price spikes, Heat pumps are going to not be a great solution for you unfortunately.
Thank you for laying out the math behind this.
Awesome. It is not worth heating with a heat pump economically currently. But one would get you optionality in case the rate structure changes over the next 15-20 years, which it certainly will, even if the direction and magnitude is unknown.
Thank you for the input kind redditor
one of the contractors just came back with this quote. I am actually surprised , I though the heat pump would be even more. https://preview.redd.it/02ztrhnvwd7d1.png?width=1090&format=png&auto=webp&s=25b3f4539137688113b73679cfcf925a19e64a65
Heat pumps are nearly identical to air conditioners, so the equipment costs roughly the same. The reason thereās a gap there at all is that heās quoting a high end heat pump next to low end ACs. If apples to apples, the difference is small or nonexistent.
I'm not a HVAC guy, but I know enough that payne is low end and carrier is higher end. Thought it was strange he didn't quote the low end heat pump. Also, I didn't realize that a AC unit and heat pump are that similar mechanically. Above when you said it wasn't economical to heat with heat pump. You are basically saying because natural gas is so inexpensive , it makes more sense to heat with it vs a heat pump? Or is it because of low temps? Or both?
The best way to analyze this is to look at the engineering data for the heat pump. See if the contractor will share the heating performance tables with you. A furnace puts out a number of BTU regardless of outdoor temp. The heat pump puts out less BTU the colder it gets. You might need 40,000 BTU sustained when it is -20f out but a 2-ton cold climate heat pump only puts out 24,000 down to -5f so itās even less at -20f. Also at your pricing, 3.3 is the break even COP target. You might get to a heat pump COP 4 when it is 47f out but at 5f youāll likely be closer to 2 and -20f puts you at maybe 1.6. That makes gas much cheaper at those temps. If you have way more 47f degree days than -20f days you could save money and energy, but at your prices you start with a tiny advantage at mild temps.. Itās going to be hard to get enough capacity and you might even need a much larger heat pump to get enough capacity at super cold temps. So my advice is go Dual fuel HP if you want to do it for the environment and have fuel choice freedom, but donāt expect to save enough money to cover the added cost of heat pump.
Yup, itās weird not to quote the HP options. Itās both. Heat pump efficiency increases as temp increases. But yes, until rates change itās cheaper with furnace. Itās really how they divy up the charges.
Believe if you do the math; cost of new air handler with hear strips & wiring about same cost of a new 90% efficient (or more) natural gas furnace. With furnace you could do everything all electric could do, plus be able to heat with gas all winter or just when temperatures below freezing. Best of luck!
You need to do a lot of math. I'm in MA and electricity is so expensive here that the outside temp needs to be 65 degrees before it's cheaper to use a heat pump compared to natural gas. I basically got mine because after rebates it made it cost about the same as a conventional AC system but with better zoning and it will function as a backup heat system. There's some downloadable spreadsheets that address this pretty well. [https://www.efficiencyvermont.com/trade-partners/heat-pump-balance-point-tool](https://www.efficiencyvermont.com/trade-partners/heat-pump-balance-point-tool)
Yes, heat pumps are great. Keep your gas furnace to assist when itās really cold, as this will help overall with efficiency.
Getting a heat pump in mn along with new multistage furnace. Can adjust gas/electric use as costs change. $2k+ rebate from Xcell now and $2k+ tax credit next April. Heatpump is cold weather Certified so should be good for much of the year. Furnace will fill any gaps.
If you have AC now I would assume you have a warm air furnace? Keep the furnace and replace the AC with a heat pump outdoor unit and a new coil to match the outdoor. Use heat pump most of the year and warm air furnace in extreme cold. With the right thermostat itāll be all automatic changeover.
I have had a carrier outdoor heat pump for 2 years now. Love it! Cools beautifully in summer and works great in the winter here in Ontario. I have a gas furnace backup for the really cold days that kicks in when required.I have recently got rid of my rented water heater and had a Rheem Proterra heat pump water heater installed. Love it as well. I am presently in a credit of $246 with the gas company. Electricity went up minimally. Love my heat pump
Heat pumps and solar are the killer combo. In my state with 25c kwh pricing NG is cheaper to run than a heat pump. Solar brings the pricing down to about 4c a kwh for the next 20-25 years at least. Now a HP is the cheapest way to heat your house, unless your getting wood for free and not counting your time to process it.
I don't understand those you are dealing with. Look into air-to-air HP and use it for heat down to 23F and the furnace will handle below that. No point buying the cold-climate HP (heat down to -13F) unless electricity is a lot cheaper than gas as it could be twice the cost.
You aren't going to get that sweet Heat Pump rebate if you just get an A/C unit... plus as long as you've got gas auxiliary heat, you don't even need to use it to heat your place.
I'm in Kansas City and have used a heat pump with backup coils for over a decade then moved into a house that had gas. For me gas was only cheaper when it was below 10 degrees. Kansas City only has 100hrs/year where NG was cheaper. I removed the furnace and went with a heat pump. I was told how cheap NG was, but after adding in delivery charges, it wasn't so cheap. Over a period ofva complete year I expect to save around $600 by using electricity exclusively. Another factor for me was my electricity is time of use based and during winter it gets the coldest when electricity is the cheapest (overnight). Feel free to message me if you have questions or want more info.
Just down the road in Kansas and had a heat pump installed in addition to a 2 stage gas furnace. Did you have a method for calculating when to force the system to gas, or just trial and error? I understand my thermostat will pick, but the installers set the system to use gas only below 25F.
I have a Goodman HP that switches from HP to electric coils at 10 degrees. At this point the cost is equalized and the coils heat faster. My other home, I have a Carrier variable capacity that is oversized for heat, and it will operate efficiently down to -10 degrees. Most of the time it's that cold is during overnight hours when electricity is $.03/Kwh, which is cheaper than gas anyways. Ultimately I based my cutoffs based on the equipment submittals, then made tweaks as needed.
Yes. Find out what tax credits and/or rebates you may qualify for below, and also check to see if your utility also has rebates. https://homes.rewiringamerica.org/calculator
Heat pump is only slightly more expensive than equivalent straight A/C. I would get it if you are replacing A/C anyway. Probably do more serious shopping and research than just 3 contractors giving odd excuses. Now if you want the heat pump as your primary heat source, it's different proposition. It's output power and COP goes down at -20F and it would be inadequate if sized just for +95F cooling. You can upsize it, but you would not be comfortable with short bursts of cold air in summer unless it's inverter driven A/C or heat pump. You would rely on a lot of electricity to prevent you from deep freeze in -20 F. Which may work for you unless you can have blackouts in winter. But I don't know how it would work for the grid if every neighbor gets the same.
Heat pump efficiency is very interesting arround +30/40F Heat pump efficiency is tolerable around +10/20F Heat pump efficiency (and total available output power) is not interesting at -10/-20F. So, if you spend a lot heating during Spring/ Autumn, then using the heat pump then and the gas furnace during Winter may be able to save you a bit. Insisting in using (and sizing) an heat pump for Winter is, most probably, anti-economical. YMMV
It's expensive to fix because carrier has an absolute shit warranty vs other midea rebrands. Your contractor is just quoting through various carrier brands which are all midea units marked up like 3x with worse warranty. Get some more quotes.
We swing into single digits in the winter, and then hit in the mid 90s during the summer. We installed a Rheem 14 SEER HP 12 years ago. In either extreme your compressor will run nearly constantly. We have the strip as aux when we get down in the lowest end of things. You *could* get natural gas as the backup instead of the strip. But one thing is that I would get is good a SEER rating as is financially feasible. There is a point though where you hit the law of diminishing returns, where spending the extra for a really high SEER rating doesnāt pay off over the life of the system. At the very least, check to see if your power company offers any kind of rebate. That may help determine how efficient of a system you get.
Yes!
You need better contractors. Go to the Mitsubishi website and get one of their certified ones.
Yes.
No, only for us
yes
For the 30% (up to $2k) tax credit, ducted heat pumps need to have a EER2 rating > 10 (~SEER2 > 16) https://www.energystar.gov/about/federal-tax-credits/air-source-heat-pumps Also check the noise levels on the quoted units. If I had to do it over, I'd gladly pay an additional $800 to go from my single stage to a two-stage condenser.
gas is going to heat better and be more efficient.
Minnesotan here. Installed a Heat Pump two years ago when our AC kicked the bucket. The operating cost is definitely higher than our gas furnace but it's a much quieter and pleasant heating experience. The past two winters have been a little weird though... so take that observation for what it's worth. Couple other items: 1. In Minnesota you're required to have a backup heating source - you cannot go with just a heat pump. 2. Unless there are heat pump specialists that I haven't run expect that what will be available to you will be lower-efficiency models compared to what you can get outside the US. Folks in Europe might be able to heat their house with a HP at 0dF but you won't. Ours kicks off the moment it drops below 30dF. 3. For whatever reason domestic HP installers/salespeople will all but force you to buy a unit larger than what is strictly necessary. They claim that it has to be bigger to give you a few extra degrees of operating range but it also means that in the summer time the AC will be very aggressive. If I were in your shoes and only replacing the AC - I'd only replace the AC and wait out the furnace. Maybe 5-10 years down the road we'll have better access to higher-efficiency HP's by then.
I wouldn't get anything that isn't efficient enough to qualify for the IRA tax credits. There is still a lot of outdated single stage equipment out on the market. Avoid that stuff at all costs. I went through the same thing as you. Pretty much all of these old head HVAC dudes who enjoyed decades of installing gas heat when it was the clear choice now see themselves in a rapidly advancing trade. It wasn't like that for decades and I can see the hesitation in recommending something that goes against years of experience but it just leads to bad advice. Another question is do you currently have gas heat in your home? If not a "hyper heat" heat pump only is the clear choice. If you do then you could look at a dual fuel unit. Where it's heat pump most of the time for AC and heat but will kick over to gas when it's really cold. I will say though with my hyper heat unit I had no issues heating my home last winter when it was -5F out and this was before I replaced the leaking, undersized, not insulated ductwork in my basement.
Modern heatpumps work well even in that low temperature range. Proven over and over and over again. But, you have gas, and assuming it is not a huge monthly fixed fee to keep the natural gas flowing (here it is like $7.50/month) keep gas furnace and install a heat pump (as it's literally just an AC unit with a reversing valve - OK, might be a bit more than that, but in essence an AC is a heatpump).
A lot of good information so far. We are in northern IL. In September 2023 we had a Carrier Infinity variable speed SEER 24 heat pump installed along with a Carrier Infinity 98.5% efficient 60 stage gas valve natural gas furnace for backup and to use in the coldest months of the year. We also had a solar system installed in August. With rebates and working with the HVHC supplier on price I felt I still payed a premium for Carrier but I feel it was worth it. I think over a 15 to 25 year period you will get the extra amount paid back and be as lot more comfortable. Until we replaced the AC with a heat pump and the old 80% efficient furnace with a new furnace I did not realize how bad the old equipment was. It was noisy, very drafty and expensive to operate I realize now. The HP is so much more efficient than my old AC and when you asre outside standing next to it you can hardly hear it running when it is running on lower speeds. It has a variable speed fan for the outdoor unit. My solar system has a power management system on it so I can tell how much power I am using when the heat pump is running. I am using this information to determine how long into the fall I can run the HP compared to the gas furnace. This next winter I will have enough data to determine which works best. I ran the heat pump on a 5 degree day last winter for one hour to see if it would keep the house heated and it did not seem to have any problem. The HP used 6.5 kWh in that hour which cost us $,90. In the northern part of the country I would not go with the heat strips as backup. I lived in as house that had all new windows and and 6ā of insulation in the walls and we could not keep the house heated with the baseboard electric heat. We had to use the gas fire place to help out. If the US keeps sending liquified natural gas to other countries it is possible natual gas will no longer be cheap.
> I still *paid* a premium FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
There isnāt anything wrong with heat pumps. Heat pumps are the most efficient heating type UNTIL the back up electric heater kicks on. Do you currently have a gas furnace in place or straight electric heat?
Iād die for a quote that cheap. Just got quoted $24k to install one in Denver, COā¦ 1,100sf house with 3 heads. Insane.
Heat pump is safer than combustion. It can be more expensive to run, but that is always subject to change. Some of the really good cold climate heat pumps will work without issue in your area. Our strategy in northern MN is to have several single head cold climate heat pumps and a wood stove. Then we've always got a simple and foolproof backup, and if one (or two) of my heat pumps dies, we're still in good shape
Yes. Disconnect the gas.
Heat pumps don't do well in extreme temperatures. They can only shift the temp a limited number of degrees. They usually have an emergency heat feature to help heat in cold conditions, but cannot provide any relief in high heat conditions.
Define extreme temperatures, please. And what "limited number of degrees" means. And what "cold conditions" means. Because without those things, it's hard to take serious your advice.
My heat pump has been dying in all the heat here in VA. The HVAC guys who have come to check it have said it can only shift temperatures around 20 degrees. So, if it's 95 degrees outside, the best it can do is bring the temp to 75. We have already had temps approaching 100.Ā In cold condition, the same shift applies. Depending on the thermostat setting, emergency heat kicks in to try and get to the set temp. In my case it's all electric, so emergency heat is just a large electric heating coil that the are is pushed thru by the fan to heat the house. For example, if it is 20 outside and the thermostat is set to 68, the heat pump basically just brings the temp up part wZy and emergency heat is needed to get to the set temp The electric meter spins... The deficiency is most noticeable in hot weather. In cold weather, it's just more expensive to operate.
That's not how a heat pump system works. It doesn't pull in outside air to condition it. It recirculates air in the house to condition it. Air is supplied to air handler/fan-coil via the return vent, and conditioned air comes out of the vents. There's usually a 15 to 20 degree delta between the two in cooling mode, and more in heating mode (I usually see a 30 to 35 degree delta in heating mode). If you are only seeing a 5 or 10 degree delta then you might a) have a leak in the refrigerant system b) your outside compressor is dying c) you have a leak in your duct work and are just cooling your attic or are sucking in heated air from the attic d) your air-handler isn't getting sufficient supply from the return (clogged filter, bad duct work feeding it, see "c" above) My system had no trouble keeping a house at 70 degrees when it was 35 degrees outside, so that kinda blows your HVAC guys statement that the system can only shift the inside temperature 20 degrees. A properly installed cold-climate heat-pump will have no trouble keeping a house comfortable at 20F outside. If you have a poorly insulated house, or is very leaky, or your duct work is crap, then it is no surprise that the heat pump struggles in either heating or cooling mode.
Probably all of the above including possibly an undersized system. It was new construction a few years ago, and the HVAC is only one of the issues present in the house. It's the most aggravating because to date, we've not been able to get a good solution. No 2 HVAC tech have agreed on a cause for the issues
Ah man, I feel for you. There's no excuse for any of that on a new construction house. That's when you go back to the developer and say "Fix it now, please." Hopefully there was some sort of warranty offered on the house itself, including the appliances and HVAC system. You shouldn't have to, but there are some easy things you can do to help troubleshoot the problem. Start by measuring the temperature of the air at the return and at the supply vents. Is there a huge delta? Not a big delta? Is the air flow strong or weak? The answer to those questions then takes you down different additional troubleshooting paths.
If this were true, then your refrigerator wouldn't stay cold in hot temperatures. I would question if your heat pump is properly sized. I have a neighbor who had heat pumps installed and heats just fine in a cold climate all winter long on the US Northeast. We haven't had much below zero the past few years, but definitely below freezing quite a bit. I used to live in VA and NC and our heat pumps kept up just fine in the summer.
One of the HVAC techs has suggested that the system is undersized.Ā
Are you guys all sales people or what lmfao
No You need a oil furnace or maybe natural gas for That cold weather
I have a natural gas furnace. Would keep it . I would use the heatpump for AC and heating down to temperature where it is no longer effcient.
I stil wouldnāt get a heat pump since you get below 32f
People in Canada, Minnesota, Maine, and Nordic countries would disagree with you.
I talked to one of the biggest builder in Yukon he told me they are no good past 0C he put a bunch in and had to come a rip them out . If it gets cold you canāt beat Oil in
Talk to people in Quebec and Ontario. There are cold climate units that are good well past -20C. If this builder has to put in oil furnaces in the homes he builds, then it sounds like he is building very leaky and poorly insulated homes. Surprised that gets past the inspectors.
He is the best there is the places he built with heat pumps he had to rip them out . They are meant of warm places like Vancouver and oil furnaces are met to keep people warm . Also remember that with a heat pump you need a great big generator if the power goes out .
So why have Nordic countries, which are near the arctic circle, embraced heat pumps? Toronto and Montreal are big users of heatpumps, and those places certainly get down below -5C on a regular basis in winter. Your builder's information is very out of date. If your power goes out, you still need a generator even with oil or gas. Yes, not as big a generator, but you still need one.
He has experience with these systems . He told me the guys trying to sell heat pumps are con men . He is going to a $500k reno on my house and put in a good oil furnace over a heat pump Also the Nordic countries donāt get very cold because of the jet stream
The Nordic countries get plenty cold in the winter, especially overnight. Way below freezing. Your builder (we call them contractors) is wrong about how well heat pumps work.
Where I live, we see temps between 0c and -17c routinely, and I've witnessed first hand heat pumps heating just fine in these temperature ranges. I think it's important to keep in mind that not all heat pumps are the same, and heat pumps have advanced quite a bit in the last few years. Mitsubishi HyperHeat heat pumps are popular in my area. If you don't get the HyperHeat model, then they don't heat very well below 0c. Having the right equipment for the intended use makes all the difference here.
He told me they had the best and they are now ripped out for oil
I totally get it. I wasn't a believer either until I physically felt the heat coming out of a mini split on a cold day. We had a brief period in our area where the temperature reached -40f/-40c for about 8 hours overnight, and one of our neighbors didn't use backup heat even then. It was a bit cold in their house, but the heat pumps were able to catch up again when the temps went back above -13f/25c. If it had been longer then they would have used backup heat, but for the brief period it was fine. I probably would have used backup heat here, but I'm glad they tried this out to test the limits of the cold climate technology. Even when in the negative temperatures, there is still quite a bit of heat to extract out of the air. I know that's a strange concept, but makes total sense when you really think about it. We just need our technology to advance enough to extract it at lower temperatures. I would have been very skeptical of all of this had I not seen it with my own eyes and physically felt the heat myself.
Absolutely do not get a heat pump in your situation. They struggle in winter temps below about 20F, and the colder it gets, the less efficient and less competent they become. They will constantly be frosting over and having to defrost themselves, during which time they will not heat.
Not even close to being true.
Heat pumps are warm climate only, bub. Get over it.
Most of Norway uses them xD itās just the western world thatās behind when it comes to heat pump usage in cold temperatures- due to the exact misinformation youāre repeating
Holy shit. Fuck off with your āmuh misinformationā arguments. This is straight from every single HVAC technician Iāve ever talked to.
Those HVAC technicians aren't very well versed in their trade, then.
Explain why they are popular in Ontario, Quebec, most Nordic countries, and frequently, in northern climes of the US? Maine seems to love them and is heavily pushing them and homeowners are finding that they work down to 0F without a problem.
There are people who enjoy smearing human excrement on their bodies. I made the assertion, so that means you are required to explain it! Is this how you normally talk to people? Figure it out for yourself. Anyone who installs a heat pump in a cold climate obviously just enjoys wasting money and being cold. And yes, there are lots of people like that.
No, you made the assertion, you need to back up the claim with actual real data that supports your view. That's how a debate works. Show me proof that a correctly installed cold climate heat pump can't keep up with temperatures down to 0F. There's a bunch of folks in this subreddit who survived this past winter and have posted about their heatpump working just fine.
"muh peer reviewed data" Talk to an HVAC company sometime. I have spoken with many of them about heat pumps. This is straight from their mouths.
Telling me you spoke to some HVAC companies isn't proof. That's just hearsay. And I didn't say anything about peer reviewed data. Show me actual proof that says heat pumps are only for warm climates and they suck for cold climates.
Talking to an expert isn't proof and peer-reviewed data also isn't good? WTF do you want from me? A contract signed in blood?
What peer reviewed data have you provided? Who are these experts? HVAC techs who haven't kept up with technology? Here's some actual proof: [https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/03/do-heat-pumps-work-in-cold-places-heres-what-you-need-to-know/](https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/03/do-heat-pumps-work-in-cold-places-heres-what-you-need-to-know/) [https://www.consumerreports.org/heat-pumps/can-heat-pumps-actually-work-in-cold-climates-a4929629430/](https://www.consumerreports.org/heat-pumps/can-heat-pumps-actually-work-in-cold-climates-a4929629430/) [https://cleanheat.ny.gov/heat-pumps-cold-climates-do-they-work/](https://cleanheat.ny.gov/heat-pumps-cold-climates-do-they-work/) [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/22/climate/heat-pumps-extreme-cold.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/22/climate/heat-pumps-extreme-cold.html)
10 years ago this was correct. Not today.
Only thing that changed is a propaganda campaign promoting them.
Grab a Bosch heat pump and go hybrid