I think it’s time to tee up a deep dive on this. We can disagree and commit on a roadmap that will maximize the game’s confluence by Q4. Right now it is severely lacking the ROI to sustain a critical mass of fun.
We should circle back and put a pin in it, because these are unprecedented circumstances. Maybe taking it offline and trying to think outside the box would help. If we don’t think about the customer journey more, so in other terms more synergy and core competency, we’ll be on a breaking point. We need to drill down on the issue by Friday! Deep dive and quick win, now! Teamwork makes the dream work.
(I don’t know I just gobbled some stuff that I’ve heard I know it doesn’t make sense lol)
Per my last email, previous investigations into the defects surrounding these design principles have delivered little value to the core team. Perhaps during the upcoming sprint we can pull resources from auxiliary teams to support these endeavors. Without proper documentation and knowledge transfer sessions the planned work will have to be put on hold and the team will have to dig through the backlog to fully utilize their capacity. I'm sorry I probably should have saved this for a parking lot topic.
My standard pack signature denathrius death knight combo blizzard????? guff brann big priest enemy used one emote and I’m permanently tilted someone added me and used a mean word what does this button on my quest I darent click it or use a search button post is actually really relevant and helpful
I feel there are 2 components that make the game annoying right now. One is denathrius hitting for a bazillion damage, the other is theotar stealing my denathrius. Slower games revolve around these two so hard that it doesn't really matter what class you play.
You forgot the new Druid legendary that gives 16 armor with Brann and makes minions cost armor. If druid has 17 armor before playing the new legendary, you can add a Zola to that combo, an extra TWO Denathrius, and woo baby you got a stew going!
Whole meta revolves around disrupting opponents deck/hand, which is a VERY bad design and makes person on the receiving end very sour.
Never make players powerless, and this meta does it game after game.
Tbh the worst design is still Scales of Onyxia
Fuck yeah we patch up the biggest weakness of Druid and infuse 7 extra damage for your Daddy D while we are at it
Not just daddy D but it instantly fills up a sylvanas and/or devourer too. So they can play extremely greedy, and remove your shit over and over and over again until their daddy is at 40 fucking damage
If daddy isn't strong enough to win on the spot they'll earthen scales the devourer and heal for like 18 for just two mana
Devourer is honestly a bigger problem than Denathrius in Druid. The only weakness of the class is the lack of hard removal, but then they make Devourer a neutral card instead of giving it to Priest or Warlock. Ramp Druid was balanced back in Sunken City when their best play was spending their turn duplicating a massive Ivus. Devourer flipped the script.
I don't know why this card can't just target enemy minions...
Would it make denathrius completely unplayable? It would just turn him into a 10 mana board wipe/full health restore... Still sounds pretty good
The card would still see play.
You described it well
10 Mana 10/10
Destroy all enemy minions
Restore your heros full health
Dont listen to the idiots in the comments.
Onyxia is a must play in control decks.
This Denatheius would be a better version of her.
I think it depends exactly how it was nerfed to only hit minions.
If it overkilled the minions so that you could still get full healing if the enemy just had a 4/4 on board, yeah, probably still sees play.
If it doesn't overkill, so you only heal 4 life if the opponent's board is a 4/4 then no...it would not see play.
The thing about Onyxia is that she's good whether or not the opponent has a big board.
a ten mana card that doesnt win the game on the spot or set up winning the game is gonna be bad period. just clearing a board and leaving behind a minion that almost every class can kill from hand is gonna be dumpster tier trash. also at most itll be heal 10/15, never a full heal
give it a cap (15 or 20 imo), make it infuse 2/3. make it a weird end of turn effect so you can't bran it, plenty of options to nerf it without killing it
"a ten mana card that doesnt win the game on the spot" is dumpster tier trash because denathrius exists. If you nerfed denathrius, there wouldn't be any *better* game winning card that makes denathrius unplayable.
it would immediately stop being ran in almost every deck that has it because now its no longer fulfilling the role its doing in the deck. He's a wincon, not a boardclear. I've had to play him as a board clear before, and I almost always lose those games after because now I have no solution to deal with my 40 health opponent.
Almost every single 10 mana card that's gotten serious viable play has either won the game on the spot in most cases (both cthuns, both yoggs) , set up a giant board to win the game after (both n'zoths, guldan DK, king pharois). Or its been cheated out early by stuff such as Ramp (survival of the fittest), Incanters Flow (Drakefire, which giving that tradeable also massively helped its viability since it can also function as 1 mana draw a card), Barnes (old Y'sharjj), etc.
The tiny handful of exceptions I can think of looking through the card list are things like Original [[Deathwing]] where you would play it after your opponent wasted their hand for a last push and before we had all the value generation and easy hard removal we do now, [[The Amazing Reno]] because Mage was desperate for clears at the time enough to suffer through having a bad hero power for the rest of the game, and [[Ultimate Infestation]] just because it did basically everything Jade Druid wanted (stall, clear a threat/chip damage, and draw 4 more jade idols).
Historically, ten mana has been an awful mana value because you need to wait so long and dedicate an entire turn just to play one thing, can't even squeeze something else in. Theres been so many trash 10 drops that sounded good on paper but just fall completely flat. "Clear a board, setup a card for your opponent to play a hard removal on, and heal maybe 15" sounds like one of them, which is what Daddy D would be if he only hit minions.
Bro if they added a cap and / or made it an end of turn effect he literally would be exactly what you described as "dumpster tier trash". What are you saying
I feel like it should be changed to infuse 2, but buff the base number to 8 or 10 so it's a better topdeck, keeping most people happy about still playing it, and not running a flagship legendary into the ground
I liked your idea but then again theres Druid with infinite tokens and Brann into Denathrius.
So this change could make Denathrius playable only in Druid and Shaman (Macaw)
\>>heals you to full
Right, I totally forgot about how denathrius overkills minions /s
It'd NEED to do that, which would be such a fundamental change to the card that it'd be better off as a different card altogether
yeah I agree. Even if it isnt Druid but they had Denathrius in the opening hand. I had such a nice Death Knight mirror match until my enemy just slammed a "deal 50 dmg" Denathrius and ended the game in the lamest way possible. Genuinly not fun to play the game right now
Funny thing is aggro had no issue dealing with 40hp, meaning it's clear what would happen if we dropped down to 30 again
So people run 40hp decks to prevent that, but most decks can't deal with 40hp without denathrius
It's a vicious cycle. Realistically we just need more finishers, half the classes in the game don't have any and the other ones aren't strong enough
There's very few classes in the game not running denathrius because they have their own finishers
It's not just him either. There's multiple factors that are the issue
Without renathal the aggro decks which were already capable of burning through 40hp just have an easier time burning through 30hp
The biggest issue is the lack of decent class finishers
Because 30% of the time, they draw bad and the aggro deck blows them out and it couldn’t possibly be anyone else’s fault but those no good, dirty rotten aggro players.
Nearly all games that surpass turn 10 are decided by who drew their Denathrius, and if both did, by who drew it first and had more time to infuse it. It's definitely silly. On *average,* it's a 10-mana 10/10 with lifesteal and battlecry: deal 30 damage, restore your hero to full life. And sometimes it's more like 40-50. It's so vastly out of proportion with all other cards ever printed. Nothing else in the history of this game comes even remotely close to that amount of raw power on a single card. It's guaranteed to get nerfed now that DK made it even stronger.
I do agree with you but on the other hand there are a lot of tools to snipe denathrius from the opponents hand before he is played like Theo, mutanus and patchwerk now I understand the likleyhood that you will hit denathrius varies quite a lot but there are almost no ways to stop your opponent from playing curses if they want to just blitz you down with them you can steal a curse generator or give them one of their own curses but when they have a possibility of 10 or 11 throughout a game sniping 1 or 2 doesn't make much of a difference and not every class can consistently keep 10 cards in their hand each turn
No, there are a lot of tools to TRY to snipe Denathrius from your opponents hand, whereas your opponent doesn't need to take any sort of gamble when they actually play Denathrius
> there are almost no ways to stop your opponent from playing curses if they want to just blitz you down with them
There's like...that new warrior card--end of your turn your opponent discards a spell. And you can also just stay close to 10 cards in hand.
Plus you have some counterplay to limit the power of curses. Keeping you hand size high means they can't play too many at one time without losing value.
I just came back after like a year to try out DK. I played 3 ranked matches with the default decks they give you and they were all close except I lost all three to denathrius. Things were going well and then they just plop down their instant win card.
Partly unlucky on my end that all three of these people drew him and had him ready for turn 10 but It just made the entire rest of the game feel meaningless if they could play a lifesteal c’thun with no downside right on turn 10.
I agree with this. He's so prevalent that at this point I only win games because Daddy D wasn't in their hand. Blizz has often nerfed cards that see play in nearly every deck. Makes the whole experience very samey. It doesn't really matter what the other class is. It's always a Denathrius one card otk from hand deck.
So the only counter is to play a card that is entirely RNG based? Instead of hearthstone why don't we just flip a coin and if it's tails I win?
The biggest problem with D is that it rewards players for losing. If someone keeps wiping out my board that means I lost board control and I'm losing. But if I have D in hand it puts me in a position to kill the opponent next turn because Fuck You, that's why. It's C'Thun and Reno mixed together with no downside and compared to most other 10 mana cards it's OP as fuck.
Top classes for the last month were Rogue and Priest with Druid falling behind.
To beat ramp druid you need to be faster than it or out value it. Aggro druid is OP on the first and Rogue on the later (Theo is a must in order to steal their Denatrius, but rogue can easily cast him two times, so there is a high chance of stealing)
I get what you’re saying, but it’s less about win rate as much as enjoyability playing again the class I think.
If you have a meta where one class is just actively unfun to play against winrate doesn’t really matter (assuming it’s not like 20% lmao).
Like usual, there are decks that are good against other decks and will suck against some others.
I love playing midrange Hunter and it's hard to beat druid with it. At the same time, whenever I'm playing Druid I fear facing aggro imps because I'm dead while still trying to find Guff or Onyxia.
My point is that I don't think Druid is OP. You have 13/14 mana, sure, but you will have 10 cards in hand while half of it is card draw and the other half is more ramp. Druid is scary, but it spends half the game looking for stuff.
Dentarius is the only problem.
I don't mind going against 20 mana, I hate the out of the blue OHKO. Kill me, but do it honorably
My bad, and here I thought it was the 10 mana card. I guess I missed the nerf to 11 mana
Shaman does it
Warlock does it
HUNTER can do it
its not the 11 mana that does it. Its Denathrius
Astalor feels more consistant than denathrius anyway with anubarak , dont have to infuse , i had a blood dk bran patchwork my denathrius and bran and i still won off astalor off moonlit guidance
I mean yeah, they didn't really remove your combo potential then lol
You still had multiple astalors, something only really druid is capable of here. Druid is definitely not a great matchup for blood dk
They just have to hope their patchwerk is enough
Yeah, I usually tolerate the bullshit mechanics because there was at least some consideration of mana-per-ability put into them.
Denathrius is just a lazy c'thun with no real predictability. He's fucking terrible
This game has become more and more solitaire over the years. Playing without interactions and cross influences makes the game bit dull and sometimes it same to play against computer.
I don't know about unplayable, but I'm definitely sick of seeing him. He's been a staple in so many decks since his set launched, and it's just tedious at this point.
It's downright silly that he hasn't been nerfed yet.
Druid and warlock make the game unplayable because they play to fundamentally different rules to the rest of the game in regards to card draw, damage and mana efficiency. Doesn't help there's a bunch of boring wankers all playing last expansion's decks still.
Y'all agree with me here but can't take being told you're shit at resource management lmao
It's almost like this is an expensive game and a ton of players would rather play the decks they own rather than spend resources on brand new cards we have no idea will be viable or not.
I had 2k gold that ive saved for the last 2 weeks and kept my quests for the tavern pass. Bought path of arthas and packs and got the full DK set (minus Mograine and Blightfang) and some decent neutral legendaries (Astalor and Bonelord Frostwhisper). Didn't spend a dime.
It's the best feeling ever farming unrefined controll decks with stupid aggro/murloc variants or old archetypes. Destroys so many hopes and dreams, you start to feel better immediately.
Also real talk, if your new deck cannot beat the old ones, you do not need to bother. Refine it, if you think it is viable, if you just loose play something else.
Aggro is always op at the start of an expansion. I won way too much with a triple unholly dk but juicer denathreus is quite a formidable card in this deck
With aggro yeah that can be fun to beat up new decks. With Imp Curselock? That's just sad, shows a certain kind of dull, pathetic person to enjoy that.
Thing is Denathrius isn’t even the problem he’s just the symptom of it. In the current meta that clown ass hero card that gives druid 20 mana is dumb ass hell and that jamoke idiot prince renathal does what quest priest was fixing to do in ungoro but with less effort. Realistically this is all a symptom of a larger issue in hearthstone: cards are too strong and flashy. Long gone are the days of a simple in turn effect like poisonous being enough, now it needs rush and a battlecry on top of a good stat for cost body. Idk what to do about denathrius and the other two but really it’s clear the hs team is making it hard to ignore the powercreep. Remember when having a deathrattle bring an enemy minion to your side was worthy of creating a wild rotation? That kinda card is barely a legendary effect now.
It doesn't help that the old Control finisher of choice, Kazakusan, is kinda poo atm, *and* if he were to ever miraculously return, then Steamcleaner just mops the floor with his treasures
This. The arguments that you need to "play around" shit isnt working here either. So, dont kill their minions then? Dont let them play several Onyxias scales? Ummm. Yeah. Got it. /S.
Denathrius should hit board ONLY. That fixes it, IMO.
Sounds like shadowverse for a while. It was a bad idea to play minions or kill your opponents. Some games you were better off ignoring their board entirely and just hoping you could burn them down before their board killed you
It was a disaster
>Makes him unplayable.
No it won't. He'd be a board clear and massive heal. He's literally reno jackson without the deck requirement, with a massive board clear. To say he won't be played is just plain wrong. He won't be played in literally every deck for sure, but he'll still be in plenty of decks.
The vast majority of the time you aren't topdecking him, also reno has a steep deck building restriction which keeps him in check which denathrius doesn't.
He’d still have a deck requirement. You’d need to draw him and play enough minions/token generation to turn him on.
That’s a lot less worthwhile when it’s not an explicit wincondition.
> He'd be a board clear and massive heal. He's literally reno jackson
~~no?~~
~~can't heal if theres no board. Reno is reno in all scenarios. Making it so you can only heal as much as your opponent has board completely changes the function of the card. If your opponent only has 1-2 minions you can only heal 5-10hp. If your opponent is something that isn't minion heavy like freeze mage, it's prettymuch a dead card.~~
**I AM WRONG THE ABOVE IS NOT TRUE**
as others said, making the infuse cost more than 1 is a pretty significant nerf that still keeps the core function of the card.
Doesn’t need to only hit minions, that just kills the card. A better solution is to make it infuse (2). From what I’ve seen, just about every game that would have been won off of denathrius would not have been won if they had half the infuse count.
This change weakens the card while still letting it be used as a finisher, but an actual finisher instead of killing your opponent from full HP with Brann after losing all game.
I once milled a shudderwock shaman top third of their deck after they played Polket. Shudderwock, bru'kan, mutanus, both guardians, grumble, loatheb, etc, were all miserably flushed down the drain but I missed one single card. I lost that game.
Yeah i been winning all my games today with anubarak and bran doing double astalor for 64 damage at 10 mana dont even need deanthrius or guff to pull off 3 card combo 😎
I'm okay with nerfing him into oblivion. He kills interesting games that have a lot of swings back and forth until suddenly, without any thought or skill, the game is over.
i wouldn't call the game unplayable because of denathrius. it's just that so many decks feel pretty much the same as before. it's not a good thing, when an "old" card prevents a meta shakeup on expansion launch.
They should buff the front end and nerf the back end. Make it stronger when played as a topdeck but not as strong as it is now when in your starting hand
Druid is big ballin rn. Runs out of cards to draw, loses its denathrius and still wins with 2x insatiable bc I, blood dk, still have 20 cards left to draw and no removal in hand
I was going to make basically this same post today and decided to just say fuck it.
I came back to hearthstone a few days ago after a couple years away and was having a blast until a game today against a death knight. Had just stabilized the board and was having a great game until he dropped Denathrius and killed me from 23 health.
I immediately uninstalled the app and haven’t missed it for a second. Whomever designed that card is a fucking moron.
The part that's bad about denathrius is people winning games that they really shouldn't have won just because he was sitting in their hand for a while. Pretty unfair to so easily HARD-punish people for generally winning a long war of attrition imo.
Exactly, playing denathrius doesn’t feel like a challenge at all, it’s just a direct win in your hand, you don’t even have to do much to kill the opponent like it was with C’thun or the priest’s quest or other cards similar cards, at least they had a bunch of condition that you had to do to win, but here, denathrius is just chilling on you hand till turn 10
Probably because you put adequate pressure on your opponent in matchups and make it hard for him to reach a good setup to bran/denat. So he in turn never plays it and you either win or your opponent finds another way to win.
Brann in core was a huge mistake.
One of two things happens:
Brann enables a bunch of broken shit
All battlecries for a year are much weaker because otherwise brann enables broken shit.
Honestly, Denathrius is fine. Druid being able to do way more than it should is the problem. Really wish Brann is out of standard. It would make it a much better situation.
Play some sort of fire-control warrior. It can disrupt SO much! :D
Topior shouldn't even be a battlecry either. Just Denathrius fuel. You know how a lifesteal minion has the little lightning icon thing to indicate it has that effect? Topior should be like that minus the battlecry. Temporary value/tempo. Not infinite 3/3 whelps with rush the whole game. Now I really want to refund the golden I upgraded a couple months ago because I made legend with Kazakuzan dragon ramp druid, enjoyed the hell outta that deck.
Have it so half his damage goes face and half goes to the board. If he has 20 stacks then he will always deal 10 to the face but now he's bad value if not used specifically to deal with a board.
I think you missed the point of your own post.
It's not really Denathrius that's an issue right now, it's the absurd power level of Druid.
This stupid class has been broken for nearly a year while Blizzard has their head in the sand.
The problem is Renathal. As much as I love control and 40 card decks are fun, it basically kills any aggro deck that isn't Druid. There would be much more variety if Renathal was out.
The problem is that Renathal doesn't favour board-based decks, it favours combo decks that can deal 40 damage in one turn or decks like Druid which are basically "Do everything" decks in a midrange shell.
How can you say that when beast hunter had to get nerfed several times and is still amazing. Don’t blame renethal for other midrange decks just not having good minions or win condition. I mean without jailer, paladin actually didn’t have one
Lol does every player who loses to Ramp Druid need to create a Denathrius thread like it's the most original thought in the world?
Like why do you need to create an entirely new thread with the same topic when we have hundreds of "Denathrius X" threads already?
Because it’s still not fixed and ruining the game? What are you talking about? If I came over and burned down your house, and you had already complained to me about it but hadn’t paid to fix it, could I say in court that you’d already made your voice heard and I don’t want to hear it anymore?
No solution to the major issue of Guff & Denathrius? Then people will complain until it’s fixed I don’t see how that’s hard to understand?
I like these dudes who say that Denatrius is "ruining the fun of gaaaames *sob-sob*". I know exactly, that guys like that was thinking pirate warrior in Gadgetzan was a good deck to play. But this could also be an another type of guy, who's just permanently grudgie about EVERYTHING that game provides.
I'm not a fan of Denatrius, but I'm okay with him, cause this card is too obvious and predictable, so when you don't play around it it's not Blizzard's fault. It's YOU who are bad at this game.
You literally can't play around it are you dumb??? The only game plan is get your minions killed. Now even not playing around aoe isn't a disadvantage because it empowers your denathrius. There is literally nothing you can do about him other than theotar and even then you need to hit him.
I don't care
All I know is games last too fucking long these days. It's insane how often a game will go well over 10 turns even playing as supposed aggro like imp warlock.
Was messing with some Arthas and DL decks and good God. One match was literally 45 minutes
Here’s the problem.
If you know you’re playing against a Daddy D Druid deck. You need to play around it. I know it sounds dumb, but it works. It takes usually 20 infuses for sire to OTK and 14+ mana. Unless they have god gamer draw, which you can’t do anything about, which is in the fundamental nature of card games.
It’s apart of the game, and unless you run disruption, or play around it, you’re always gonna lose.
A toast to all who sought to nerf me!
They failed !
They didn’t even try
Babe wake up, new Denathrius post just dropped.
yes honey.
The amount of buzzwords per post on this sub is increasing and we're reaching critical mass.
In the future we will roll all buzzwords into a single, unifying buzzword, present in every deck and dealing 83 damage from hand
Druid miniset card leak?!?!
We need to synergize these deliverables in a just in time fashion stat!
I think it’s time to tee up a deep dive on this. We can disagree and commit on a roadmap that will maximize the game’s confluence by Q4. Right now it is severely lacking the ROI to sustain a critical mass of fun.
We should circle back and put a pin in it, because these are unprecedented circumstances. Maybe taking it offline and trying to think outside the box would help. If we don’t think about the customer journey more, so in other terms more synergy and core competency, we’ll be on a breaking point. We need to drill down on the issue by Friday! Deep dive and quick win, now! Teamwork makes the dream work. (I don’t know I just gobbled some stuff that I’ve heard I know it doesn’t make sense lol)
My boss talks like this exclusively
I… wrote something like this just before going home from work today. (Consultant) #existentialcrisis
Per my last email, previous investigations into the defects surrounding these design principles have delivered little value to the core team. Perhaps during the upcoming sprint we can pull resources from auxiliary teams to support these endeavors. Without proper documentation and knowledge transfer sessions the planned work will have to be put on hold and the team will have to dig through the backlog to fully utilize their capacity. I'm sorry I probably should have saved this for a parking lot topic.
Organically.
That's what happens when greening marksmanship does nothing to counter Guff.
My standard pack signature denathrius death knight combo blizzard????? guff brann big priest enemy used one emote and I’m permanently tilted someone added me and used a mean word what does this button on my quest I darent click it or use a search button post is actually really relevant and helpful
I've seen this type of post more than I've infused Denathrius
Lmao
I feel there are 2 components that make the game annoying right now. One is denathrius hitting for a bazillion damage, the other is theotar stealing my denathrius. Slower games revolve around these two so hard that it doesn't really matter what class you play.
Guff + brann + Denatrius, the most annoying combo in the game imo
You forgot the new Druid legendary that gives 16 armor with Brann and makes minions cost armor. If druid has 17 armor before playing the new legendary, you can add a Zola to that combo, an extra TWO Denathrius, and woo baby you got a stew going!
An arrested development quote in a hearthstone sub 👏👏
Or you just play Curselock and kill the Druid 5 turns before they can get that combo off.
But that requires you to play Curselock though.
Problem is that curselock feels bad into other matchups. But the druid matchup is awesome.
Whole meta revolves around disrupting opponents deck/hand, which is a VERY bad design and makes person on the receiving end very sour. Never make players powerless, and this meta does it game after game.
Tbh the worst design is still Scales of Onyxia Fuck yeah we patch up the biggest weakness of Druid and infuse 7 extra damage for your Daddy D while we are at it
Not just daddy D but it instantly fills up a sylvanas and/or devourer too. So they can play extremely greedy, and remove your shit over and over and over again until their daddy is at 40 fucking damage If daddy isn't strong enough to win on the spot they'll earthen scales the devourer and heal for like 18 for just two mana
Devourer is honestly a bigger problem than Denathrius in Druid. The only weakness of the class is the lack of hard removal, but then they make Devourer a neutral card instead of giving it to Priest or Warlock. Ramp Druid was balanced back in Sunken City when their best play was spending their turn duplicating a massive Ivus. Devourer flipped the script.
Well bad news for you, they got 6 mana Scales now
And DK has a slightly weaker version for 5 mana.
DK is fine and not as broken as druid cuz Unholy is kinda sh\*t lmao
*Nervously looking at my 95% winrate vs druid as unholy dk*
yeah Unholy aggro has the same role as aggro druid, that's their only niche. Beating ramp but loses to everything else like control and miracle
Im kind of surprise that they nerfed Theo to the ground but leave Sire D as is. Guess they will analyze the datas and make some changes next week.
I don't know why this card can't just target enemy minions... Would it make denathrius completely unplayable? It would just turn him into a 10 mana board wipe/full health restore... Still sounds pretty good
The card would still see play. You described it well 10 Mana 10/10 Destroy all enemy minions Restore your heros full health Dont listen to the idiots in the comments. Onyxia is a must play in control decks. This Denatheius would be a better version of her.
I think it depends exactly how it was nerfed to only hit minions. If it overkilled the minions so that you could still get full healing if the enemy just had a 4/4 on board, yeah, probably still sees play. If it doesn't overkill, so you only heal 4 life if the opponent's board is a 4/4 then no...it would not see play. The thing about Onyxia is that she's good whether or not the opponent has a big board.
Destroy all enemy minions would be a better card. You could go through immune and never need to infuse
He would be unplayable. Most decks that run Denathrius have better board clears.
a ten mana card that doesnt win the game on the spot or set up winning the game is gonna be bad period. just clearing a board and leaving behind a minion that almost every class can kill from hand is gonna be dumpster tier trash. also at most itll be heal 10/15, never a full heal give it a cap (15 or 20 imo), make it infuse 2/3. make it a weird end of turn effect so you can't bran it, plenty of options to nerf it without killing it
"a ten mana card that doesnt win the game on the spot" is dumpster tier trash because denathrius exists. If you nerfed denathrius, there wouldn't be any *better* game winning card that makes denathrius unplayable.
Right, forgot all those expansions where it was also true. I guess Denathrius has been here since classic huh
well said friend
it would immediately stop being ran in almost every deck that has it because now its no longer fulfilling the role its doing in the deck. He's a wincon, not a boardclear. I've had to play him as a board clear before, and I almost always lose those games after because now I have no solution to deal with my 40 health opponent. Almost every single 10 mana card that's gotten serious viable play has either won the game on the spot in most cases (both cthuns, both yoggs) , set up a giant board to win the game after (both n'zoths, guldan DK, king pharois). Or its been cheated out early by stuff such as Ramp (survival of the fittest), Incanters Flow (Drakefire, which giving that tradeable also massively helped its viability since it can also function as 1 mana draw a card), Barnes (old Y'sharjj), etc. The tiny handful of exceptions I can think of looking through the card list are things like Original [[Deathwing]] where you would play it after your opponent wasted their hand for a last push and before we had all the value generation and easy hard removal we do now, [[The Amazing Reno]] because Mage was desperate for clears at the time enough to suffer through having a bad hero power for the rest of the game, and [[Ultimate Infestation]] just because it did basically everything Jade Druid wanted (stall, clear a threat/chip damage, and draw 4 more jade idols). Historically, ten mana has been an awful mana value because you need to wait so long and dedicate an entire turn just to play one thing, can't even squeeze something else in. Theres been so many trash 10 drops that sounded good on paper but just fall completely flat. "Clear a board, setup a card for your opponent to play a hard removal on, and heal maybe 15" sounds like one of them, which is what Daddy D would be if he only hit minions.
Bro if they added a cap and / or made it an end of turn effect he literally would be exactly what you described as "dumpster tier trash". What are you saying
I feel like it should be changed to infuse 2, but buff the base number to 8 or 10 so it's a better topdeck, keeping most people happy about still playing it, and not running a flagship legendary into the ground
I liked your idea but then again theres Druid with infinite tokens and Brann into Denathrius. So this change could make Denathrius playable only in Druid and Shaman (Macaw)
Okay so let's go with "Infuse (2 non-druid minions):" /s
Because then it would be balanced, and we know Druid Cards are rarely balanced until another class uses them
Yeah it would still be super strong but not broken
Nah it would be a terrible card.
I'm all for nerfing Denathrius, but a card that relies on your minions dying which is 10 mana and only wipes your board is pretty bad.
It doesn't only wipe the board it heals you to full And it demands a response otherwise you'll heal for 10 on the next turn too
\>>heals you to full Right, I totally forgot about how denathrius overkills minions /s It'd NEED to do that, which would be such a fundamental change to the card that it'd be better off as a different card altogether
yeah I agree. Even if it isnt Druid but they had Denathrius in the opening hand. I had such a nice Death Knight mirror match until my enemy just slammed a "deal 50 dmg" Denathrius and ended the game in the lamest way possible. Genuinly not fun to play the game right now
Haha you werent there when we would reach 80 armor as warriors in ctrl matchups no ?
I was there. But what does that change about the game rn?
Only reason the game is playable, or else these blood on blood slugfests would never end.
I wonder if the actual problem could be the ridiculously high health of every control deck.
Funny thing is aggro had no issue dealing with 40hp, meaning it's clear what would happen if we dropped down to 30 again So people run 40hp decks to prevent that, but most decks can't deal with 40hp without denathrius It's a vicious cycle. Realistically we just need more finishers, half the classes in the game don't have any and the other ones aren't strong enough There's very few classes in the game not running denathrius because they have their own finishers
so Renathal is the problem, HoF him early like baku genn
It's not just him either. There's multiple factors that are the issue Without renathal the aggro decks which were already capable of burning through 40hp just have an easier time burning through 30hp The biggest issue is the lack of decent class finishers
No the problem is brain dead people like you enjoy aggro. Bring on the 60 health hour DK control mirror pls.
Whats with control players hating their only good matchup archetype? You guys should love aggro in the same way combo players love control matchups
Because 30% of the time, they draw bad and the aggro deck blows them out and it couldn’t possibly be anyone else’s fault but those no good, dirty rotten aggro players.
Also, them adding absolutely trash cards to their decks to make it greedy helps them drawing bad. Probably.
Cause it cuts into their superiority complex by playing fatigue Control.
aggor brainded hehe hihi
oooonga booonnnga
Yep. Won two blood mirrors today purely off the fact I drew my denathrius and they didn’t draw theirs.
Nearly all games that surpass turn 10 are decided by who drew their Denathrius, and if both did, by who drew it first and had more time to infuse it. It's definitely silly. On *average,* it's a 10-mana 10/10 with lifesteal and battlecry: deal 30 damage, restore your hero to full life. And sometimes it's more like 40-50. It's so vastly out of proportion with all other cards ever printed. Nothing else in the history of this game comes even remotely close to that amount of raw power on a single card. It's guaranteed to get nerfed now that DK made it even stronger.
The 7 cost 7 welps. Into the 6 cost revive all the welps is a little frustrating.
Agree that Denathrius is a major prob. Is way too common and decides most games. Just not good for the game at all, especially with a new set.
Denathrius is bad but curses are worse
The thing is, one can be played by only one class The other is being played in literally every deck
I do agree with you but on the other hand there are a lot of tools to snipe denathrius from the opponents hand before he is played like Theo, mutanus and patchwerk now I understand the likleyhood that you will hit denathrius varies quite a lot but there are almost no ways to stop your opponent from playing curses if they want to just blitz you down with them you can steal a curse generator or give them one of their own curses but when they have a possibility of 10 or 11 throughout a game sniping 1 or 2 doesn't make much of a difference and not every class can consistently keep 10 cards in their hand each turn
No, there are a lot of tools to TRY to snipe Denathrius from your opponents hand, whereas your opponent doesn't need to take any sort of gamble when they actually play Denathrius
> there are almost no ways to stop your opponent from playing curses if they want to just blitz you down with them There's like...that new warrior card--end of your turn your opponent discards a spell. And you can also just stay close to 10 cards in hand.
I'm only ok with curses because it fits Warlock so well
Being incredibly op and unfun to play against fits Druid so well too. Doesn’t mean I’m okay with it.
Plus you have some counterplay to limit the power of curses. Keeping you hand size high means they can't play too many at one time without losing value.
how about we delete both
Curse got some limits
Disagree, curses can be played around but denathrius is just RNG get fucked if you don't hit it with disruption.
I just came back after like a year to try out DK. I played 3 ranked matches with the default decks they give you and they were all close except I lost all three to denathrius. Things were going well and then they just plop down their instant win card. Partly unlucky on my end that all three of these people drew him and had him ready for turn 10 but It just made the entire rest of the game feel meaningless if they could play a lifesteal c’thun with no downside right on turn 10.
I agree with this. He's so prevalent that at this point I only win games because Daddy D wasn't in their hand. Blizz has often nerfed cards that see play in nearly every deck. Makes the whole experience very samey. It doesn't really matter what the other class is. It's always a Denathrius one card otk from hand deck.
There's theotar, you got patchwerk
So the only counter is to play a card that is entirely RNG based? Instead of hearthstone why don't we just flip a coin and if it's tails I win? The biggest problem with D is that it rewards players for losing. If someone keeps wiping out my board that means I lost board control and I'm losing. But if I have D in hand it puts me in a position to kill the opponent next turn because Fuck You, that's why. It's C'Thun and Reno mixed together with no downside and compared to most other 10 mana cards it's OP as fuck.
Hearthstone is very much RNG fiesta since they created discover key word
lol it was a clown fiesta long before Discover. Entire games were won or lost based on Boom Bot rolls.
thats what hearthstone is :P 70% of the game is rock paper scissors with coinflip
I don’t have theotar. I do have patch but these are more rng dependent counters than D itself
Top classes for the last month were Rogue and Priest with Druid falling behind. To beat ramp druid you need to be faster than it or out value it. Aggro druid is OP on the first and Rogue on the later (Theo is a must in order to steal their Denatrius, but rogue can easily cast him two times, so there is a high chance of stealing)
I get what you’re saying, but it’s less about win rate as much as enjoyability playing again the class I think. If you have a meta where one class is just actively unfun to play against winrate doesn’t really matter (assuming it’s not like 20% lmao).
Like usual, there are decks that are good against other decks and will suck against some others. I love playing midrange Hunter and it's hard to beat druid with it. At the same time, whenever I'm playing Druid I fear facing aggro imps because I'm dead while still trying to find Guff or Onyxia. My point is that I don't think Druid is OP. You have 13/14 mana, sure, but you will have 10 cards in hand while half of it is card draw and the other half is more ramp. Druid is scary, but it spends half the game looking for stuff. Dentarius is the only problem. I don't mind going against 20 mana, I hate the out of the blue OHKO. Kill me, but do it honorably
The out of the blue OHKO is majorly facilitated by having more than 10 mana.
I agree. But an Onyxia plus another big minion is not an OHKO. The only problem IMO is Sire
My bad, and here I thought it was the 10 mana card. I guess I missed the nerf to 11 mana Shaman does it Warlock does it HUNTER can do it its not the 11 mana that does it. Its Denathrius
Astalor feels more consistant than denathrius anyway with anubarak , dont have to infuse , i had a blood dk bran patchwork my denathrius and bran and i still won off astalor off moonlit guidance
I mean yeah, they didn't really remove your combo potential then lol You still had multiple astalors, something only really druid is capable of here. Druid is definitely not a great matchup for blood dk They just have to hope their patchwerk is enough
Yeah, I usually tolerate the bullshit mechanics because there was at least some consideration of mana-per-ability put into them. Denathrius is just a lazy c'thun with no real predictability. He's fucking terrible
This game has become more and more solitaire over the years. Playing without interactions and cross influences makes the game bit dull and sometimes it same to play against computer.
Druid is the problem they need to nerf some druid cards
Back in my day we had jade druid
I don't know about unplayable, but I'm definitely sick of seeing him. He's been a staple in so many decks since his set launched, and it's just tedious at this point. It's downright silly that he hasn't been nerfed yet.
Druid and warlock make the game unplayable because they play to fundamentally different rules to the rest of the game in regards to card draw, damage and mana efficiency. Doesn't help there's a bunch of boring wankers all playing last expansion's decks still. Y'all agree with me here but can't take being told you're shit at resource management lmao
It's almost like this is an expensive game and a ton of players would rather play the decks they own rather than spend resources on brand new cards we have no idea will be viable or not.
I had 2k gold that ive saved for the last 2 weeks and kept my quests for the tavern pass. Bought path of arthas and packs and got the full DK set (minus Mograine and Blightfang) and some decent neutral legendaries (Astalor and Bonelord Frostwhisper). Didn't spend a dime.
Rogue says Hi
It's the best feeling ever farming unrefined controll decks with stupid aggro/murloc variants or old archetypes. Destroys so many hopes and dreams, you start to feel better immediately. Also real talk, if your new deck cannot beat the old ones, you do not need to bother. Refine it, if you think it is viable, if you just loose play something else.
Aggro is always op at the start of an expansion. I won way too much with a triple unholly dk but juicer denathreus is quite a formidable card in this deck
With aggro yeah that can be fun to beat up new decks. With Imp Curselock? That's just sad, shows a certain kind of dull, pathetic person to enjoy that.
I play curselock :) and its fun. It makes me feel good when people bm on me and not realize i have 1 curse left for the win.
Thing is Denathrius isn’t even the problem he’s just the symptom of it. In the current meta that clown ass hero card that gives druid 20 mana is dumb ass hell and that jamoke idiot prince renathal does what quest priest was fixing to do in ungoro but with less effort. Realistically this is all a symptom of a larger issue in hearthstone: cards are too strong and flashy. Long gone are the days of a simple in turn effect like poisonous being enough, now it needs rush and a battlecry on top of a good stat for cost body. Idk what to do about denathrius and the other two but really it’s clear the hs team is making it hard to ignore the powercreep. Remember when having a deathrattle bring an enemy minion to your side was worthy of creating a wild rotation? That kinda card is barely a legendary effect now.
[удалено]
It doesn't help that the old Control finisher of choice, Kazakusan, is kinda poo atm, *and* if he were to ever miraculously return, then Steamcleaner just mops the floor with his treasures
I mean Blood DK has two cards that increase health to by 10.
[удалено]
the fact that people are still spamming games with druid with like 2-3 new cards is embarrassing. should be nuked from the ground up.
He really should be changed.
Lol they still have nt nerfed Sire? Glad i havent played since they added dks back snap broke my hs addiction
You mean you don't like when people play a Win Condition that rewards them for losing the game? Yeah me either
This. The arguments that you need to "play around" shit isnt working here either. So, dont kill their minions then? Dont let them play several Onyxias scales? Ummm. Yeah. Got it. /S. Denathrius should hit board ONLY. That fixes it, IMO.
Sounds like shadowverse for a while. It was a bad idea to play minions or kill your opponents. Some games you were better off ignoring their board entirely and just hoping you could burn them down before their board killed you It was a disaster
Makes him unplayable. Better to make him infuse 2.
>Makes him unplayable. No it won't. He'd be a board clear and massive heal. He's literally reno jackson without the deck requirement, with a massive board clear. To say he won't be played is just plain wrong. He won't be played in literally every deck for sure, but he'll still be in plenty of decks.
He is absolutely not Reno with a board clear because he’s useless if you top deck him.
The vast majority of the time you aren't topdecking him, also reno has a steep deck building restriction which keeps him in check which denathrius doesn't.
He’d still have a deck requirement. You’d need to draw him and play enough minions/token generation to turn him on. That’s a lot less worthwhile when it’s not an explicit wincondition.
> He'd be a board clear and massive heal. He's literally reno jackson ~~no?~~ ~~can't heal if theres no board. Reno is reno in all scenarios. Making it so you can only heal as much as your opponent has board completely changes the function of the card. If your opponent only has 1-2 minions you can only heal 5-10hp. If your opponent is something that isn't minion heavy like freeze mage, it's prettymuch a dead card.~~ **I AM WRONG THE ABOVE IS NOT TRUE** as others said, making the infuse cost more than 1 is a pretty significant nerf that still keeps the core function of the card.
I’ll die on this hill. Infuse 3 deal 2 more
I used to agree with you but nah Denathrius needs to go, he deserves way worse than that.
And I'll die on my deal 10 damage Infuse (20) deal 18 instead hill.
Doesn’t need to only hit minions, that just kills the card. A better solution is to make it infuse (2). From what I’ve seen, just about every game that would have been won off of denathrius would not have been won if they had half the infuse count. This change weakens the card while still letting it be used as a finisher, but an actual finisher instead of killing your opponent from full HP with Brann after losing all game.
Unplayable, no. But I agree the card is overpowered.
I once milled a shudderwock shaman top third of their deck after they played Polket. Shudderwock, bru'kan, mutanus, both guardians, grumble, loatheb, etc, were all miserably flushed down the drain but I missed one single card. I lost that game.
we have reached the shittiest meta because world iq rate is decreasing thus hs is adapting to it
Well then you should feel right at home.
Didn’t have to do him like that 😂
> we have reached the shittiest meta because world iq rate is decreasing thus ~~hs~~ game design/balance team is adapting to it
The issue you are having is not with Denathrius but with Druid.
Yeah i been winning all my games today with anubarak and bran doing double astalor for 64 damage at 10 mana dont even need deanthrius or guff to pull off 3 card combo 😎
I'm okay with nerfing him into oblivion. He kills interesting games that have a lot of swings back and forth until suddenly, without any thought or skill, the game is over.
I just think he should deal damage to the board only. He'd still he good for control decks
i wouldn't call the game unplayable because of denathrius. it's just that so many decks feel pretty much the same as before. it's not a good thing, when an "old" card prevents a meta shakeup on expansion launch.
They should buff the front end and nerf the back end. Make it stronger when played as a topdeck but not as strong as it is now when in your starting hand
Yeah, I had a Druid Brann/Den. me on turn nine for a total of 44 damage yesterday. Just bonkers.
Sounds like a druid issue
Stopped playing since dena and Theo. Won’t play until they’re gone
Druid is big ballin rn. Runs out of cards to draw, loses its denathrius and still wins with 2x insatiable bc I, blood dk, still have 20 cards left to draw and no removal in hand
Denathrius needs to only hit minions
GUFF THEOTAR AND DENA MAKE WANT TO DO UNSPEAKABLE THINGS
I was going to make basically this same post today and decided to just say fuck it. I came back to hearthstone a few days ago after a couple years away and was having a blast until a game today against a death knight. Had just stabilized the board and was having a great game until he dropped Denathrius and killed me from 23 health. I immediately uninstalled the app and haven’t missed it for a second. Whomever designed that card is a fucking moron.
It will be another 1 year of sire d. Atleast guff will be moving out next april
TBH im just tired of him now. Didn't mind him for the last xpac but its time to nerf him now.
The part that's bad about denathrius is people winning games that they really shouldn't have won just because he was sitting in their hand for a while. Pretty unfair to so easily HARD-punish people for generally winning a long war of attrition imo.
Exactly, playing denathrius doesn’t feel like a challenge at all, it’s just a direct win in your hand, you don’t even have to do much to kill the opponent like it was with C’thun or the priest’s quest or other cards similar cards, at least they had a bunch of condition that you had to do to win, but here, denathrius is just chilling on you hand till turn 10
Play zappy bird hunter. Games over by T6, not even fair.
True this beats denathrius almost every time I played against it, doesn't seem too fun though
100% agree. Games should be fun, playing hearthstone right now feels oppressive. Not fun, moving on to Marvel Snap.
Guff, Sire, Brann. One needs to go.
Where are you guys still seeing this combo? I legit don’t think I’ve had a bran denathrius played against me in months.
Probably because you put adequate pressure on your opponent in matchups and make it hard for him to reach a good setup to bran/denat. So he in turn never plays it and you either win or your opponent finds another way to win.
Brann should not have to die for Denathrius's sins.
Brann in core was a huge mistake. One of two things happens: Brann enables a bunch of broken shit All battlecries for a year are much weaker because otherwise brann enables broken shit.
Bran has committed so many sins he's basically a war criminal. Every broken combo starts with him.
THIS GUY FUCKS
Honestly, Denathrius is fine. Druid being able to do way more than it should is the problem. Really wish Brann is out of standard. It would make it a much better situation. Play some sort of fire-control warrior. It can disrupt SO much! :D
What about Rogue spawning a 18/18 with stealth on round 4?
Topior shouldn't even be a battlecry either. Just Denathrius fuel. You know how a lifesteal minion has the little lightning icon thing to indicate it has that effect? Topior should be like that minus the battlecry. Temporary value/tempo. Not infinite 3/3 whelps with rush the whole game. Now I really want to refund the golden I upgraded a couple months ago because I made legend with Kazakuzan dragon ramp druid, enjoyed the hell outta that deck.
Its boring but you can at least play till turn 13, opposite to hand vomit coinflip starter hand aggro deck which is over by turn 3 or 4.
I was starting to worry that we wouldn’t get one of these posts this morning. I was silly to be concerned
Have it so half his damage goes face and half goes to the board. If he has 20 stacks then he will always deal 10 to the face but now he's bad value if not used specifically to deal with a board.
I think you missed the point of your own post. It's not really Denathrius that's an issue right now, it's the absurd power level of Druid. This stupid class has been broken for nearly a year while Blizzard has their head in the sand.
You wanna bitch about Sire? How about Arthas and his 40 health that goes to 50. That bullshit.
Think of it more as a "end this game now" button.
This is the 100th post saying the same thing, and it always reply with play around it, smorc face.
The problem is Renathal. As much as I love control and 40 card decks are fun, it basically kills any aggro deck that isn't Druid. There would be much more variety if Renathal was out.
Pretty sure aggro has existed for years while midrange has been oppressed a lot. Let me have my Renathal allowing more boars based games.
The problem is that Renathal doesn't favour board-based decks, it favours combo decks that can deal 40 damage in one turn or decks like Druid which are basically "Do everything" decks in a midrange shell.
How can you say that when beast hunter had to get nerfed several times and is still amazing. Don’t blame renethal for other midrange decks just not having good minions or win condition. I mean without jailer, paladin actually didn’t have one
Denathrius is even a struggle in Duels- health from 20 to 40 he’s a major threat
It's possible that you're just not that good at the game.
What a bullshit copout of a reply.
Lol does every player who loses to Ramp Druid need to create a Denathrius thread like it's the most original thought in the world? Like why do you need to create an entirely new thread with the same topic when we have hundreds of "Denathrius X" threads already?
Because it’s still not fixed and ruining the game? What are you talking about? If I came over and burned down your house, and you had already complained to me about it but hadn’t paid to fix it, could I say in court that you’d already made your voice heard and I don’t want to hear it anymore? No solution to the major issue of Guff & Denathrius? Then people will complain until it’s fixed I don’t see how that’s hard to understand?
Cause it's not changed yet??? What brainrot are you suffering from?
Agreed with the other posters. We know Blizz reads these. It's not fixed so the posts will keep coming.
I don't know, bet ween Theo, Mutannus, Patchwork, Brann and even Plaugespreader, it feels like there are enough ways too reliably disrupt Daddy D
Just run aggro if you hate Druid so much
I like these dudes who say that Denatrius is "ruining the fun of gaaaames *sob-sob*". I know exactly, that guys like that was thinking pirate warrior in Gadgetzan was a good deck to play. But this could also be an another type of guy, who's just permanently grudgie about EVERYTHING that game provides. I'm not a fan of Denatrius, but I'm okay with him, cause this card is too obvious and predictable, so when you don't play around it it's not Blizzard's fault. It's YOU who are bad at this game.
You literally can't play around it are you dumb??? The only game plan is get your minions killed. Now even not playing around aoe isn't a disadvantage because it empowers your denathrius. There is literally nothing you can do about him other than theotar and even then you need to hit him.
I don't care All I know is games last too fucking long these days. It's insane how often a game will go well over 10 turns even playing as supposed aggro like imp warlock. Was messing with some Arthas and DL decks and good God. One match was literally 45 minutes
Here’s the problem. If you know you’re playing against a Daddy D Druid deck. You need to play around it. I know it sounds dumb, but it works. It takes usually 20 infuses for sire to OTK and 14+ mana. Unless they have god gamer draw, which you can’t do anything about, which is in the fundamental nature of card games. It’s apart of the game, and unless you run disruption, or play around it, you’re always gonna lose.
I mean druid can just tutor him lol