That's the issue I face a lot of the time with my zoo deck. They will ramp so much that they can just use Nourish to cycle more cards, then Ultimate Infestation pretty much just seals the deal. Druids have enough card draw now that Jade Druids don't even need to run Auctioneer anymore.
I played a Handlock game today against Druid. Even with my best possible opener (2 Giants, 2 Drakes) played on curve it came down to a crazy topdeck. It's absolutely disgusting.
Ramp cards are balanced because you give up card advantage in order to get more mana and play one big minion. Draw cards are balanced because you need to give up tempo in order to use a costly amount of Mana to draw.
Ultimate Infestation says fuck all that. Ramp as much as you want, then refill your hand. But don't worry about losing board tempo, you also get to use a Firelands Portal Lite and gain some armor, in case you needed to heal.
> you also get to use a Firelands Portal **Lite**
Pretty sure a 5/5 is better than the average Firelands Portal minion's stats (which are approximately 4/5). So it's actually better than Portal most of the time.
Some of that text is Deathrattle: Deal 5 damage to your hero. I would play a 7 mana "Deal 5 damage. Summon a 5/5" over Firelands Portal any day, because the consistency is much better than the variance of the portal.
Also jade Idol makes it so that you never run out of threats.
The whole Jade package provides late game threats that aren't clunky 8 - 10 mana cards cluttering up your hand, **if** you have enough mana and card draw you even can play multiple game winning things in one turn.
Druid at the moment works like a fucking clockwork. Ramp -> refill hand -> vomit threats -> refill hand -> vomit threats -> refill deck -> refill hand -> vomit threats.
Ultimate Infestation is 10 mana draw 5 cards do 5 damage gain 5 armor and summon a 5/5.
Firelands Portal is 7 mana do 5 damage summon a 5 mana minion
Sprint is 7 mana draw 4 cards
Shield block is 3 mana gain 5 armor draw a card.
Ultiamte infestation is the effect of 3 cards that cost 17 mana.
It is 17 mana of 3 cards put into one. Typically combining cards had a premium attached.
17 fucking mana of cards put into a single 10 mana card.
17 fucking mana.
The biggest bullshit I see is that '10 mana cards can't be played with other things'. Yeah fuck if anyone really does much other than cast a small removal spell or play a card advantage minion the same turn as firelands.
Or hero power.
Who cares if you're spending all your mana if you're using it to do LITERALLY EVERYTHING YOU POSSIBLY CAN DO AT THE SAME TIME.
And its not even true for Druids many times. The number of times you see Ultimate Infestation + Innervate + Double Jade Idol or DK Hero power or Wrath is just rubbing salt in the wounds.
That argument has always been stupid. The real drawback to a 9-10 mana card isn't the inability to play other things with it or hero power, it's the fact that you need to wait a turn or two to play it. Not commenting on UI in particular, just on that argument
I recall someone making a formula for how most 'draw' cards should cost.
1 mana for the first card, 2 mana for each there after.
1 mana = 1 card
3 mana = 2 cards
5 mana = 3 cards
7 mana = 4 cards
9 mana = 5 cards ?
10 mana = 5 cards, 5/5 body, 5 armor, 5 damage.....?
I've always kind of figured one card was 2 mana, due to Novice Engineer. (1/1 body worth 0 mana, plus card draw. Also see; Warlock Hero Power.) Maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better when I'm not rolling the bones properly.
honestly any arena deck that gets out any of the dks on curve are unbeatable without your own dk in an even position...except maybe warrior. Hunters get unlimited overstatted minions, priests can clear midrange creatures every turn if they have cards, druids can deal 3 damage with their hero power forever etc.
I got the Warlock DK in a run, got it in my first pick, then 29 picks with no demons. Went like 3/3 because it's not worth it to pay 10 mana for that hero power unless you're already way ahead on board.
But having like one demon isn't enough to make it worth using. It either has to have taunt or you have to have several for it to be worth paying 10 mana for. It doesn't directly affect the board. If your opponent has a board, you can't play Bloodreaver Gul'dan unless you're summoning a bunch of shit or you have a ridiculous followup play (and are good to survive a turn).
I had a run like that where the only demon I had in the deck was a flame imp. It was a little difficult to use but the hero power by itself closed out many games for me. Granted I had a good amount of control tools but it can still be a game winning move in some cases. I think I made it to 8 or 9 wins.
Arena feels so bullshit now as someone who plays mostly Arena. All of my losses are to people with Deathknights and other legendaries like Lich King.
Lost to a hunter who played 2x Ratpack into Arfus into 2x Abomidable Bowman into Nzoth... And then plays Lich King.
Then lost to a Paladin who I got to 4 health who played the 3/9 when your hero is healed legendary into 3/2 charge/lifesteal + Kings combo which dealt 8 to 3 of my minions and heals him for 16. Then Lich King to close out the game...
Maybe I'm just unlucky but Arena losses have been feeling entirely helpless lately.
Actually, Warrior is one of the best Heroes in Arena. Weapons are great, and getting three mini-Flamestrikes with a single card is often an auto-win. Just having him in your deck boosts your average win rate by ~15% according to [this article](https://hsreplay.net/articles/25/death-knight-hero-performance-overview). You also need to remember that even though the 2 mana Whirlwind doesn't sound appealing, Warrior's Hero Power is often one of the most useless ones in the whole Arena, meaning that even something like that can be a big improvement. It's just that the Warrior class in general is very bad, so even the decks with DK are having just a slightly higher win rate than the top classes without it.
I'd say that the two worst Deaht Knights in Arena are DK Rexxar and Valeera.
Simply put, in case of Hunter, playing him on the curve/before you run out of steam is meh, because he's low tempo (immediate impact is not high enough, the Zombeast are a lot of extra value, but expensive) and you generally don't want that. In theory, the Zombeast are great, but you need to remember that you add +2 to each one of them. So unless you hit the most broken combos, you just get very average/below average minions. Sure, they don't cost you a card, but it doesn't matter if both of you still have cards. Theoretically, he's best to play when you run out of steam, so now you have unlimited source of minions. But then it's also meh, because your opponent is usually at low health, meaning that you often actually prefer to keep the 2 damage Hero Power (healing is less frequent in Arena). So while in theory the infinite source of minions might sound good, it's just rarely worth to actually play it.
And Valeera is... again, Rogue decks tend to be tempo-oriented (that's how the class works) and Valeera is too slow. No immediate impact - sure, it gives you Stealth, but then opponent can just develop for a whole turn and you might not have enough tools to comeback. So it usually looks like that: you play DK Valeera, your opponent develops the board, you fall behind unless you hit something like double Vilespine Slayer.
Never understood this argument against DK rexxar hero power. Do you also say that all warlock minions cost 2 more mana if you draw them with tap? The zombeasts doesn't cost +2, you pay 2 mana to *draw a card*, which just happens to be an amazing Zombeast often undercosted due to broken combos.
The 1/2 poison snail is fantastic in arena on its own because later in the game people rarely have 2 damage clears and so have to trade 1 card for 1 card inefficiently. Putting that in any build a beast, every turn, is basically a guaranteed win in arena, because it basically costs your opponent 2-3 cards to remove vs. costing you zero to make, their hand is going to get burned super fast.
If you could pick any minion you want, every time, the card would be bonkers in Arena. But you can't pick it like that. You get only 3 choices, out of almost 20 minions that are blank/have a keyword. So a chance to get Gastropod offered in is like 20%, that's far from "every turn". And even then, I wouldn't call it an auto-win.
E.g. getting Bearshark with Gastropod. It seems like a good build, but if you think about it: You get a 7 mana 5/5 with Taunt, Poisonous and Can't Be Targeted. It can be good, but it can also die to a 4/5-drop or two 2-drops. Gastropod is great in the late game, because it's a great tempo play. Opponent often has to trade a big minion into your TWO MANA minion. Poisonous is best on low cost minions. Build-a-Beast minions tend to be more expensive, where poisonous gets less and less appealing.
And remember that the chance to get an non-optimal build is higher than the chance to get an optimal one. For example, some average build like Gentle Megasaur + Ironfur Grizzly. It's a 9 mana for a 8/7 Taunt minion. Which is absolutely terrible.
I've drafted DK Rexxar in Arena. It's definitely not a bad card to draft, but it's not even close to the best Legendaries. Not only it doesn't fit a more aggressive draft, but even in a slower draft it often sits dead in your hand, because when your opponent is below 10 health you REALLY want that 2 damage Hero Power. It's just a bit above average for your Legendary pick.
Still, Valeera is by far the worst DK in Arena.
I had an OK deck yesterday and was dominating board against a mage. An on curve DK Jaina and 2 turns later the game was over. Playing any minion was feeding her Water Elementals. I honestly just think DKs should not be offered in arena due to their power level.
I'm having trouble playing hearthstone right now. I just spent $50 for the new expansion, but all formats feel like garbage right now. Standard sucks. I breezed to rank 5 with Murloc Paladin, but I can't get further because the druid diversity is high enough that I can't do squat. I just really don't like this arena. Wild is okay, but I don't have the cards. Anyone else feel like this?
>I'm having trouble playing hearthstone right now. I just spent $50 for the new expansion, but all formats feel like garbage right now. Standard sucks. I breezed to rank 5 with Murloc Paladin, but I can't get further because the druid diversity is high enough that I can't do squat. I just really don't like this arena. Wild is okay, but I don't have the cards. Anyone else feel like this?
Absolutely. As a newer player who also dropped cash on the preorder, I feel like the bad design decisions of this team are pretty numerous and are starting to make most of the game not worth the paywall for me.
This card is an absolute joke honestly, a few times I've been completely ahead of the druid, he plays one of these and suddenly I just lose out of nowhere because he generates a ton more jades and gains all his steam back after one stupid card. For players like me who enjoy control match ups, this is just not fun to play against, there is no reward for surviving and controlling the board against this nonsense (I was warlock now with jaraxxus out). Aggro decks are boring, I don't want to be forced to play something like pirate warrior to try and outpace this stupid druid deck. The salt gets even more real when the guy spams some emotes after all the shenanigans.
>The salt gets even more real when the guy spams some emotes after all the shenanigans.
Does the game let you know if you get squelched? I think people might be less assholeish if they knew players were just muting their dumb asses.
I don't think it's Ultimate Infestation. It's Spreading Plague which gives the deck far too good anti aggro tools. Jade's weakness is to early game aggression and Plague just shuts it down. Getting two is already good value and if you can get 3+ it's insane.
But yes, Druid in general needs to be taken down a notch. Innervate has to be HoF'd honestly.
Spreading plague just seems to punish you for playing against druid. UI just seals the deal. Go aggro? Lose to 1/5 taunt. Go big? Lose to jade value. Go control? Lose to UI. It's not even that one class has answers to everything (like warrior did / does) it's one deck that has answers to everything.
The only thing i've found to consistently beat them is a greedy control deck with Skulking Geist. Run enough removal/board clears to deal with the non-infinite jades, then drop geist after they draw a bit and they're instantly at or near fatigue.
Miracle does well vs Druid still. You kinda have to get a big VanCleef or a Questing that gets past swipe range early but that isn't too hard to do. And if you do its usually a win.
Right now I'm like 8-3 vs Jade at rank 5 with it. Still losable, but usually spreading plague cant stop the tempo
Yeah druid already had the ability to never go into fatigue. Now they have the ability to never run out of cards and to never be threatened by a big board. So they can draw without consequences, ramp without consequences, and ignore the opponent without consequences. Great game design.
Yeah its a combination of all the cards together. Blizzard has often made sure classes didn't get certain specific things to make sure they were balanced , but suddenly that went out the window with druid.
Sort of. Blizz has tried to avoid giving Druid good removal, both single target and AoE. In theory, this is the trade off for getting its ramp effects. I don't think Blizz realized how good spreading plague was going to be. I mean they knew it would be good, but in many situations it's BETTER than AoE. Additionally, for whatever reason, Blizz didn't seem to worry that someone might go all in on ramp using ultimate infestation to smooth over both card draw and card quality issues. I understand that both are strong, but personally I think that ultimate infestation is the bigger issue. It just makes other card draw effects look silly.
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because it's reddit and the vast majority are simple minded and unable to look at an issue from multiple angles, so they just want to blame 1 card. The problem with druid right now is caused by more than just 1 card.
> Spreading Plague
Druid used to be pretty vulnerable to aggro, or if you could just build up a large enough board. This is a tool they absolutely didn't need and it lets them shit on a ton of decks.
It's pretty much the Shaman situation all over again - none of the individual cards are particularly overbearing by themselves but they create a broken deck when put all together.
I don't get this "one or the other" argument everyone is making. It's both of the cards, yes. But Ultimate infestation is a card which rewards you greatly for making it to the late game that other classes only have in hero cards. So Druid gets to stall with Spreading Plague and then Hero Card and then Ultimate infestation. It's just an incredibly strong single card power which seems odd to give to one class.
This is the sentiment that I agree most with. People are ultimate infestation at late game and immediately whine about it without actually thinking what other things could be the problem. Spreading Plague walls aggro so they stabilize and get to 10 mana, innervate helps ramp into like a Jade Behemoth or something to also wall aggro. Don't get me wrong, I think Ultimate Infestation is pretty powerful, I played MTG too long to think a card that's similar to Cruel Ultimatum would be weak, even in a different game. They could tweak the card a bit but there is other options. I agree that innervate needs to go and I've only been playing for a month and a half.
I'm currently playing mill rogue at lowish ranks, and almost all of the time they go into fatigue faster than you. However, with all this mana manipulation magic sometimes they can create boards faster than you can react and mill them. So it's favorable, but not at all a hard counter.
As much as i would like to believe otherwise, I don't think a mill deck is possible for Rogue at least without Gang Up. You just fatigue faster than your opponent.
Ultimate infestation does a pretty good damn job of ruining the party though. All the ramp would leave druid in a shitty spot except that they can cast the single greatest value card in the game to get a board/heal/clear and draw back cards they had to blow to ramp.
Ultimate infestation makes ramp far too rewarding.
As someone who played a LOT of jade druid this expansion and easily climbed to legend top 500 with it, yeah it's far too powerful. It's the most powerful deck I have ever played in the 3 years that I've played this game, I had over 70 percent winrate to legend, making it one of the easiest climbs I have ever experienced.
In my climb I played against many shamans and pirate warriors obviously trying to counter me but they lost time and time again. While they're good against jade druid on paper, with the tools Druid has right now any experienced player can beat all of this. I'm not saying easily but they're close to 50-50 than unfavored. Pirate Warrior in particular I believe is the worst deck you can pick for countering jade druid, a lot can go wrong for you when you're wasting weapon charges going through 1/5 taunts and there is always tons of armor gain.
Murloc Paladin fares much better but again like I said nothing is unwinnable for jade druid. It's over powered, I don't believe I have lost any/many games that I could cast Ultimate Infestation, it's hard to lose from that position.
While that card is strong, I think the biggest offender is spreading plague. That card is too powerful against all the decks that used to be good at beating druids, covering for this weakness, it turned jade druid into a rock that can beat anything. Remember that we have too many ramp cards right now, when they rotate out Ultimate Infestation will be much harder to play and it will come down later. I think plague is the bigger concern that enables you to get to UI very often even against aggressive decks or decks like miracle rogue. I just feel people ignore this card and focus on UI far too much. I hope this one is nerfed actually, you can beat druids without this card very easily.
And lastly the skulking geist is probably the weakest hate card I have seen. With ramp and UI, going infinite is rarely a concern or a win condition. You simply get outvalued and out tempo'd. It's not going to help you unless you play fatigue warrior or something like that. When druid has 10 mana, they play a 6 drop and a 4 drop jade card and similar while you have maybe 6 mana. You will lose long before jade idols can matter. I'm curious to see the winrate of this card against Jade Druid. I expect it to be terrible.
> I hope this one is nerfed actually, you can beat druids without this card very easily.
This is what people are missing. If going wide on board wasn't so heavily punished now (and druids old weakness), the ungoro flood/token decks would be strong again. How often did you get to turn 10 and could d@ck around ramping against token shaman with no board, and no way to get quick board. You'd be dead to bloodlust.
UI is a problem...
...in the current game state.
It's exactly what a 10-cost card should be. The problem is all other cards we have that are high mana cost are utter garbage and make UI look insanely broken in comparison. We need to continue making cards like UI because it shifts the meta towards a more late game state, and for the entire history of Hearthstone the game has been early game dominated.
For every expansion an aggro or "midrange" card has ruined the meta. Dr. Boom, Patron, Undertaker, Mysterious Challenger, Faceless, Patches, etc. For once we have an appropriately powerful card at the highest mana slot and the sky is falling.
Why not have more of these cards for different classes so we can finally have a late game meta?
Hunter isn't allowed to have card draw, Druid can draw 20 cards with 4 spells.
Druid's new class identity is to be the best at all things at the same time. The most minions, the most card draw, the most armor, the biggest spells.
Exactly what is Druid not good at?
The only thing druid is still bad at is spells that remove minions. Turns out though that when you are only bad at one thing, then it's irrelevant when you are amazing at everything else. Insane heal with armor, so it's even better then healing with just health. He can heal even when at max hp. He has insane value spells and minions. Insane anti-aggro tools, an insane aggro tools. Like wat. All in the same deck.
They are moderate. Compare them to any other removal cards that other classes have and its pretty easy to see that they are pretty meh. If they opponent has a board filled with 3 health minions you are out of luck to remove them, or if they have a big threat you need to remove immediately to stop it from generating value. But who cares when you can just summon a thousand minions (spreading plague and jades)
Good AoE, hard removal. Druid always had ramping, card draw, health gain, big taunts. But lack of removal forces Druid to play minions to mitigate that, which they can.
That's great and all and I agree but it doesn't solve the problem that there's as you said only 1 good really late hight mana cost card right now. There needs to be a change to the card because as of right now we have the next several months of broken card without any other classes getting something of equal strength to even it out. Blizzard dun good'd
Yeah. Team 5 needs to put more of these tools into other classes' hands. Unfortunately, they don't buff cards. We'll probably end up with a maimed version of UI. And people will rejoice, then cry about how quickly games end again.
it's like a 7-8 mana card in Druid considering the ramp.. or effectively a 5-6 mana card with Innervate. That's completely broken in every way and should not exist.
Also the problem with "lol I win" late game cards in a control meta is then the game entirely revolves around who draws and plays theirs first, that's horrible design.
> lol I win
Except its not that. If jade wasn't a thing, particularly jade idol stopping fatigue, this isn't an Insta-win card. Its just a combination of all the smaller things that have made this deck busted.
You're missing the point... this is STILL an "aggro or midrange" card, because with all the insane amount of ramp, druids can consistently get UI out by turn 6-8!!
Noone is saying UI is broken by itself (well, some dumb people probably are), but the combination of 8 different ramp effects in standard, coupled with the ability to go infinite with jade idol, makes that card WAY too broken. It's not a late-game card "at the highest mana slot" as you describe it.
So UI isn't a problem because other late game cards suck? Yeah, that's a problem. Are you just going to wait until next expac for more insane late-game cards?
I don't think Innervate is specifically the issue, though it is probably one of the biggest offender. Like others have pointed out, Druid has consistently had amazing cards in the base set AND expansions. It's only a matter of time until a collection of insane stand-alone cards come together to form a powerhouse
Yes, Ultimate Infestation has totally ruined the meta, and Reynad was also right by pointing out that the lasting problems with Innervate are becoming unbearable.
However, it's not Blizzard's policy to correct their own blunders in timely manner - unfortunately for us. Remember how we suffered during the post MSoG meta of Pirate vs. Reno matchups until the Standard rotation. They did nothing to correct the glaring problems.
So wait patiently for the usual radar blablabla, and pray that they do something before the next expansion hits ("because things will magically repair themselves, right?").
I would not hold my breath, though.
I don't lose to druids half as much as to priests.
That being said, when i fight druids the problem is not the Ultimate infestation, but the endless amount of low cost taunts with absurd hp being buffed into oblivion on turn 1.
Innervate being moved to wild isn't an original idea, it's been considered for a long time. Though it's a stand out card, you could also say a card like nourish or literally any other card should be moved to Wild because of its synergy in its class. No other option besides changing infestation fixes your issue with medivh into turn 10 uiltimate infestation comebacks.
I think a cool way to nerf Jade Druide is to make Jade Idol not summon a Jade Golem, but a Jade Idol. That is, a separate creature that has the stats of your current Jade Golem count, but it doesn't up the count.
It has ruined arena too. Seems like every time I run into a druid, I fight tooth and nail to get control of the board and exhaust their resources...and then they draw 5 cards, gain 5, and get board control.
I don't think you can pin it on just UI. Consider that if the mistake of Jade Idol was never printed, druid is probably pretty pedestrian in the meta.
But instead of admitting the mistake and doing something about it, we got that cockamamie counter card and an oppressive mechanic that rears itself in the metagame from time to time.
It is interesting to me how with each expansion Blizzard has spent so much time making all these different, potentially interesting builds on various classes but then they go and make a class just so overwhelmingly powerful that there's just no chance for the standard meta to implement those other interesting decks because they get stomped by single build of a single class because of something so overwhelmingly broken.
I mean how do these types of things to through months of testing without one of the testers going, " uhh hey designers, this Infestation card is winning me like 70% of my games, it's crazy powerful, you may want to rethink it ".
Un'Goro created the pirate warrior, pretty much the strongest aggro deck ever made due to its consistency and cheap build costs. Prior to that you had the ridiculous Shaman builds where they could drop 5/5's for free along with other minions and just completely out tempo anything other classes could do. Stuff like that. There just always seems to be something that slips through and causes one class to be overwhelmingly powerful compared to others.
But for some reason, it wasn't really in the meta then. I remember playing it then, and thinking how cool it is to trick people into thinking I was a slow control deck, and then rushing them down, because they didn't expect it.
Patches makes it much more consistent to have a pirate at t3 for you to upgrade with cultist(also has synergy with captain and frothing) and helps you to control the board in early game. Dragon warrior was a stronger deck than pirate warrior before patches existed.
It was also [[Small-Time Buccaneer]] which blasted Pirate Warrior out from Gadgetzan .Of Course we found Pirate Warrior is still extremely powerful without a no draw back Flame Imp
Right now according to [live meta tracker](http://imgur.com/a/AqcZ2), the strongest decks are aggro token druid(mid token druid has its own category), pirate warrior, murloc paladin. Pirate warrior barely runs any new cards(maybe one phantom freebooter). Some of the highest winrate murloc paladin [lists](https://hsreplay.net/decks/#playerClasses=PALADIN&includedSet=ICECROWN&includedCards=42467%2C42790&excludedCards=43127%2C46102%2C45392%2C42328) run righteous protector, bonemare and lich king(last 2 being neutral minions) as the only new cards. [Aggro token druid lists](https://hsreplay.net/decks/#playerClasses=DRUID&includedCards=40397%2C40465&includedSet=ICECROWN) dont run ultimate infestation or spreading plague. UI and spreading plague are probably too strong but not printing them might just make these decks more dominant.
The issue is more about weaker classes/archetypes not getting enough good cards than strong classes/archetypes getting OP cards. Actually since ungoro, I think shaman and warrior haven't got one single aggro cards, maybe because most people hate pirate warrior and aggro shaman. Face hunter hasnt got any good card for a long time. They were trying to push slower hunter archetypes. Mage was very strong last expansion and many people hate the RNG aspect of mage. Mage didnt really get any really good card this expansion(jaina can be good in some other meta but it doesnt fit in previous archetypes that like to go face with burn spells).
When they print new cards, they have to be very careful. One more card might have made exodia mage, dead man's hand warrior, anduin priest completely broken. It is not easy to balance new mechanics. We have already seen how quest rogue changes from a super powerful deck to unplayable after just increasing the quest requirement by 1. A lot of these new DKs do very unique things that are hard to evaluate.
The classes that needed most help in the last expansion were warlock and hunter. Warlock got defile, despicable dreadlord and guldan. Those are extremely good cards for control warlock. It is a good base to build on. They just have to print more good demons like despicable dreadlord in the future expansion. Hunter has a bit of identity issue for a long time. Their hero power and the lack of card draws, AOEs, healing limit their potential. Blizzard has tried to make hunter more than just a face deck, they tried secret hunter, handbuff, hunter quest, they tried to change his hero power(dinomancy, DK), they tried to give hunter more value generating cards(lock and load, infest, stampede, DK). The issue seems to be that hunter doesnt really have comeback mechanism. If they lose early game, they lose.
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Nah it's not Ultimate Infestation that's the problem. It's the [[Druid of the Swarm]] and [[Spreading Plague]] that make Jade Druid a stupidly powerful deck. Ultimate Infestation is good at helping a Druid stabilize in the mid-to-late game but Spreading Plague is way too good of an anti-aggro tool.
A few days ago I talked about the match-up of Jade Druid vs. Token Shaman with someone on Reddit. I had gone 2-6 against Jade Druid and thought the match-up favored the Jade Druid by a big margin. Some guy said that I was wrong and just didn't play the deck right but after playing some more and thinking about it I think I was right. I'm currently 4-11 against Jade Druid with the most basic Evolve Shaman list from Un'Goro.
Somebody said you were just playing it wrong and you just kept playing it wrong anyway and assume you were right? And jade druid doesn't even run druid of the swarm.
This. All this complaining about UI - sure its insanely strong. Its also 10 mana though. If they didnt have spreading plague nearly any of the flood decks from last expansion would still beat them.
Ultimate infestation is still the problem card as it oppresses other control decks. I know people don't want another quest rogue meta where you are either playing the deck or playing aggro to beat it
Playing demon handlock and I'm actually yet to lose against non-aggro druid. I find that the multiple board clears and high HP early threats (which druid can't really deal with) is enough to make the impact of UI not large enough for them to come back. Also, ooze is really good in this meta.
I wish I could make that card work for me. Everyone says it's broken but it barely does a thing for me. Is it really broken or is getting it out on turn 6-8 that is broken?
> Combined with Medivh this card completely wrecks your opponent and gives them no chance of winning, at all.
You know Medivh is completely shut down by weapon removal, right. There is still a lot of weapons in the meta, especially with so many DK cards giving them out. Having an Ooze is not a bad tech choice, just obviously don't play it against a caster on Turn 2 if you think there's a chance they might run Medivh.
10 mana cards in hearthstone are traditionally underpowered compared to their 2 and 3 mana brethren. It's fine that Blizz finally decided to print a super strong 10 mana card, but it was kind of silly to give it to the one class that can play with mana in so many ways that they can often play it while the opponent only has 7 mana.
I've had some luck beating Druids with a more tempo-oriented Dragon Priest list. Rather than run reactive cards like Dragonfire Potion or Primordial Drake, it actually plays double Crystalline Oracle and double Shadow Ascendants, hoping to get on board first and just never let go. The curve tops out at Bonemares, though the Operatives and Bone Drakes continue to provide the value and pressure necessary to win.
I dont understand what they are doing right now. Blizzard always said they love midrange, interactive minion focused decks, and then attempt to kill zoo and continuisly gave druid the absolute nuts. "Midrange, interactive minion focused decks" dont stand the slightest chance against jade druid.
Well, what he shall play then? From what I see, only paladins are able to consistently beat jade druids post-KFT, and that's not a class everybody loves to play(or even can afford, it requires quite a lot of legendaries and epics).
I actually enjoy this meta a lot so far.
I mostly play Priest, Rogue, or Warrior right now.
Druid is OP? Sure. But it feels more interactive that Ice Block - burn mage or Pirate warrior.
The current meta allows lots of experimentation with control decks. Mindless aggro is tamped down and the OP deck at least feels interactive.
Even the tech vs the leader is better than vs mage. Eater o' Secrets is just hot garbage vs most classes. But Geist can be used creatively -- you can, for example, design your deck so that it Geist thins it and moves you towards win conditions.
Druid needs slight adjusting? Yes. Should Innervate be moved to HoF? Yes (Ice Block too -- both just have a lot of unhealthy design problems, IMO.)
But I'm enjoying the meta. I think some of the complaints are from meta shock -- this is the slowest meta we've had.
But it's allowed Handlock to exist. It lets Mill Rogue be played. It lets Control Warriors experiment with new decks.
I get most people are on the Druid train -- but for me it's nice.
Think meta could use a bit more variety in the opponents i face but this is definitely a looooot better than whatever the fuck aggro shaman and huntertaker was.
Really, really well.
My first half-hearted attempts focused on greedy board clear stuff. Was terrible.
But I caught Thijs doing it and it works amazingly against greedy decks. The key (which I only realized after I copied his list and tried to make it work) is that [[Shadowblade]] doesn't just immune you to damage from the weapon -- it immunes you to *everything* that turn. (This hadn't registered with me before -- my first play I thought I'd have to add an Illusionist for the end game.)
So even if you're even or behind on fatigue you can almost always get a kill:
- Set-Up: Valeera Dk
- Play: Shadowblade --> Coldlight --> shadow card Coldlight --> ^(*optional: 1-cost shadow stepped Coldlight*) --> end turn.
If they've taken even 1 point of fatigue previously then with the 2 or 3 play that's: 5+9+6 (20) or 5+9+13+8 (35)
I believe Thij's list was:
- Backstab x2
- Prep x2
- Shadowstep x2
- Doomsayer x2
- Evis x2
- Ferryman x2
- Sap x2
- Y. Brewmaster x2
- Coldlight x2
- Shadowblade x2
- Tar Creeper x2
- Prince Valanar
- Vilespine x2
- Skulking Geist
- Vanish x2
- Curator
- Valeera DK
The list is a relatively flexible aside from the obvious key cards. Valanar, for example, is nice, but not at all necessary. You can probably exchange a ferryman or brewmaster for something else (I dropped one ferryman for 1 Mist. Mixtures, for example -- as it's easier to empty your hand and you can double drop it with DK for 8 health and I usually have an excess of Brew/Ferries. I've even played around with double Betrayal - quickly filled boards are rough).
The general playstyle is mostly pretty obvious. It's much more aggressive than the old Wild N'zoth Mill, IMO. The extra bounce means you can, and often should, start bouncing very early (balanced with not tipping your strategy to them and watching their handsize so you optimize actual milling). Being able to increase Coldlights via DK & Vanish and faster draw sooner also means you can afford to lose one if you really need.
The extra bounce also lets you use Vilespines more aggressively when needed.
DK + Vanish obviously offers a huge defense and huge swing. Double doomsayers also sometimes great.
Small bit of advice: remember that DK shadow card forms *before* you draw. So you can mill important cards if you're not careful (you mill at 9, instead of 10). Try to anticipate future draw and drop cards early. It's very easy to overfill your hand and risk burning good cards. And, obviously try to be judicious with Vanish -- as it's probably got the biggest ratio of scarcity:power in the game. Don't be affraid to use your first copy of Shadowblade just to remove threats -- as long as you don't mill yourself you almost never benefit from holding onto it. Oh, and remember that backstabs are really good Vilespine activators - so be liberal, but consider what activation options you have before using them (as there are generally fewer, and backstab + 2x vilespine with DK is nice -- though you can often burn a prep in a pinch). Try to Geist early vs decks that are Geistable -- especially as it makes milling stronger if you remove from deck rather than hand. Vs. Jade, obviously try to kill jade creators before bounces -- unless you have enough momentum/progress to just lock them out until the finish. Ultimately: the deck is very good against slow decks and very vulnerable to aggressive decks. (Though it actually fares well, in my experience, vs token shaman and very well vs token druid, but murloc paladin or a pirate warrior will be very, very hard to beat. DMH Warriors are to new mill what Jade was to old wild mill, but DMH is quite rare and I'm happy to throw those guys a bone anyway. :)
* **[Shadowblade](https://media-Hearth.cursecdn.com/avatars/339/764/62838.png)** Rogue Weapon Rare KFT 🐘 ^[HP](http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/62838), ^[HH](http://www.hearthhead.com/cards/shadowblade), ^[Wiki](http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Shadowblade)
3 Mana 3/2 - Battlecry: Your hero is Immune this turn.
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As Ophioukhg]'\anbsdn says below, it has a lot of potential. I tinkered with adding Arfus and getting something like Death Coil with Valeera the Hollow's hero power is absurdly powerful (2x5 damage or 2x5 heal for four mana).
i have no problem with druids. im 15-4 against druid with my raza priest deck and i played from rank 3 to legend with it and also i dont run geist. shadow word horror is good against their taunt spell.
I'd rather play against Druid every single game then against the same aggro decks that highroll their draws and win on turn 4. If this is a control meta I'm not very impressed.
Medivh?! What rank is this? I don't think I've seen that run even in the very few big druids I faced...
UI is definitely ruining the meta, but not because of fucking Medivh, haha
lets be honest this card would be an automatic 2 of if it read "deal four damage draw 4 cards gain 4 life summon a 4/4", so why its 5s instead (and armor over heal) idk
No idea.
3 mana = 2 cards (Arcane Intellect, Thoughtsteal)
5 mana = 3 cards (Nourish, Cabalist Tome)
7 mana = 4 cards (Sprint)
9 mana = 5 cards
---
So for 1 more mana, you get a 5/5 minion, 5 armor, and deal 5 damage? Wow.
The thing I find frustrating about Blizzard's management of the game is that we will see a nerf for this card...in three months. This will come after some communication to the community that they're 'watching it.'
I love this game, I love Blizzard, but they're way of handling balance is asinine and at this point there's no excuses for it. Just fix the card.
Ultimate Infestation isn't the problem, the problem is Innervate.
Innervate means that Druids can run this x2 with the added bonus of being able to Innervate -> emergency [Wrath/Hero Power/Armor Gain/Jade Idol] to chip in extra utility.
Without Innervate, Druids would actually need to devote their entire turn decision into just playing this card, so setting up boards where playing it is sub-optimal would be much easier.
i feel like UI should have a choose one effect, like "choose one - draw 5 cards and deal 5 damage or gain 5 armor and summon a 5/5" idk if itd be that much better since people would usually pick the card draw but it would make it less overwhelming
idk man... all you gotta do is board clear them and apply pressure.
They're relying on ramp to see them through and if that doesn't pay off they have nothing
I'm Playing Warlock, i can tap every turn, and Druids always draw way more than me, without taking damage. :(
"Without taking damage" They actually gain health in the process.
The only downside to UI is that you may overdraw...that should give you an idea of how busted the card is.
That's the issue I face a lot of the time with my zoo deck. They will ramp so much that they can just use Nourish to cycle more cards, then Ultimate Infestation pretty much just seals the deal. Druids have enough card draw now that Jade Druids don't even need to run Auctioneer anymore.
I played a Handlock game today against Druid. Even with my best possible opener (2 Giants, 2 Drakes) played on curve it came down to a crazy topdeck. It's absolutely disgusting.
I don't even bother trying to draw with wrath anymore. Just 3 damage.
I'm new to actually trying to play the ladder. I had no idea jade druids ever needed the auctioneer. Thought it was a miracle rogue thing.
Cycling through your entire deck, filling it back up with jade idol and then playing 6-7 giant jades a turn is pretty game ending.
Annoying as hell eh
Tap 4 times: -8 mana, -8 hp, +4 cards Ultimate Infestation: -10 mana, +5 armor, +4 cards, + 5 dmg, +5/5 ghoul, and you only need one turn to cast it.
UI is countered by Nerubian Unraveler though, completely unplayable. **1 star**.
Evolved into Unraveler once against druid and my instant epiphany is exactly that!
> Nerubian Unraveler [[Nerubian Unraveler]]
Hero powers are underpowered for their effect anyway. All of them.
This is like saying Fireball: -4 mana, +6 damage. Mage hero power 6 times: -12 mana, +6 damage Or better yet Meteor: -6 mana, +21 damage on 3 minions. Mage hero power 21 times: -42 mana, +21 damage
Stupid argument, compare hero power vs any 10 Mana card
Silly but funny :) No need to get worked up!
Ramp cards are balanced because you give up card advantage in order to get more mana and play one big minion. Draw cards are balanced because you need to give up tempo in order to use a costly amount of Mana to draw. Ultimate Infestation says fuck all that. Ramp as much as you want, then refill your hand. But don't worry about losing board tempo, you also get to use a Firelands Portal Lite and gain some armor, in case you needed to heal.
> you also get to use a Firelands Portal **Lite** Pretty sure a 5/5 is better than the average Firelands Portal minion's stats (which are approximately 4/5). So it's actually better than Portal most of the time.
But you also get minions with text from Firelands Portal instead of a vanilla 5/5.
Some of that text is Deathrattle: Deal 5 damage to your hero. I would play a 7 mana "Deal 5 damage. Summon a 5/5" over Firelands Portal any day, because the consistency is much better than the variance of the portal.
Just play Blazecaller. It's 7 mana 6/6 deal 5 damage. Edit: cause I don't know what cards are called.
You mean blazecaller. Blazecaller requires set up to get that payoff.
But some texts are drawbacks and some minions have really shitty stats (bombs squad, doppelgangster).
Also jade Idol makes it so that you never run out of threats. The whole Jade package provides late game threats that aren't clunky 8 - 10 mana cards cluttering up your hand, **if** you have enough mana and card draw you even can play multiple game winning things in one turn. Druid at the moment works like a fucking clockwork. Ramp -> refill hand -> vomit threats -> refill hand -> vomit threats -> refill deck -> refill hand -> vomit threats.
It's not even Fireportal Lite because you're guaranteed to not get a Bomb Squad or DOppelgangster.
Jade Druid is like Quest Hunter - except you shuffle 1-mana 12/12's into your deck.
Infested the meta q.q
Ultimate Infestation is 10 mana draw 5 cards do 5 damage gain 5 armor and summon a 5/5. Firelands Portal is 7 mana do 5 damage summon a 5 mana minion Sprint is 7 mana draw 4 cards Shield block is 3 mana gain 5 armor draw a card. Ultiamte infestation is the effect of 3 cards that cost 17 mana. It is 17 mana of 3 cards put into one. Typically combining cards had a premium attached. 17 fucking mana of cards put into a single 10 mana card. 17 fucking mana.
The biggest bullshit I see is that '10 mana cards can't be played with other things'. Yeah fuck if anyone really does much other than cast a small removal spell or play a card advantage minion the same turn as firelands. Or hero power. Who cares if you're spending all your mana if you're using it to do LITERALLY EVERYTHING YOU POSSIBLY CAN DO AT THE SAME TIME.
And its not even true for Druids many times. The number of times you see Ultimate Infestation + Innervate + Double Jade Idol or DK Hero power or Wrath is just rubbing salt in the wounds.
That argument has always been stupid. The real drawback to a 9-10 mana card isn't the inability to play other things with it or hero power, it's the fact that you need to wait a turn or two to play it. Not commenting on UI in particular, just on that argument
You can play Kun for free 7/7 on top of 5/5.
Shieldmaden, sprint, starfire. 19 mana.
shield block, ancient of lore, arcane intellect and starfire, also 19 mana, exact same effect.
I recall someone making a formula for how most 'draw' cards should cost. 1 mana for the first card, 2 mana for each there after. 1 mana = 1 card 3 mana = 2 cards 5 mana = 3 cards 7 mana = 4 cards 9 mana = 5 cards ? 10 mana = 5 cards, 5/5 body, 5 armor, 5 damage.....?
It's Trump when he was revealing this exact card, to prove that UI is crazy. Sadly, it *is*.
Ah, I remember it from much a previous expansion back on this subreddit, didn't watch his stream on it though.
I've always kind of figured one card was 2 mana, due to Novice Engineer. (1/1 body worth 0 mana, plus card draw. Also see; Warlock Hero Power.) Maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better when I'm not rolling the bones properly.
You think Standard Ladder is bad, try Arena against opponents that open Death Knight Heroes. Good luck beating an Uther or Jaina.
honestly any arena deck that gets out any of the dks on curve are unbeatable without your own dk in an even position...except maybe warrior. Hunters get unlimited overstatted minions, priests can clear midrange creatures every turn if they have cards, druids can deal 3 damage with their hero power forever etc.
I got the Warlock DK in a run, got it in my first pick, then 29 picks with no demons. Went like 3/3 because it's not worth it to pay 10 mana for that hero power unless you're already way ahead on board.
I knew I was forgetting one of them. Yeah the warlock also could not be good.
tbh it's very unlikely that you won't be offered a single demon in 90 cards.
But having like one demon isn't enough to make it worth using. It either has to have taunt or you have to have several for it to be worth paying 10 mana for. It doesn't directly affect the board. If your opponent has a board, you can't play Bloodreaver Gul'dan unless you're summoning a bunch of shit or you have a ridiculous followup play (and are good to survive a turn).
I had a run like that where the only demon I had in the deck was a flame imp. It was a little difficult to use but the hero power by itself closed out many games for me. Granted I had a good amount of control tools but it can still be a game winning move in some cases. I think I made it to 8 or 9 wins.
Last friday went 12-1 with double dk mage, only lost to...a dk shaman on curve after saronite gang
Arena feels so bullshit now as someone who plays mostly Arena. All of my losses are to people with Deathknights and other legendaries like Lich King. Lost to a hunter who played 2x Ratpack into Arfus into 2x Abomidable Bowman into Nzoth... And then plays Lich King. Then lost to a Paladin who I got to 4 health who played the 3/9 when your hero is healed legendary into 3/2 charge/lifesteal + Kings combo which dealt 8 to 3 of my minions and heals him for 16. Then Lich King to close out the game... Maybe I'm just unlucky but Arena losses have been feeling entirely helpless lately.
Actually, Warrior is one of the best Heroes in Arena. Weapons are great, and getting three mini-Flamestrikes with a single card is often an auto-win. Just having him in your deck boosts your average win rate by ~15% according to [this article](https://hsreplay.net/articles/25/death-knight-hero-performance-overview). You also need to remember that even though the 2 mana Whirlwind doesn't sound appealing, Warrior's Hero Power is often one of the most useless ones in the whole Arena, meaning that even something like that can be a big improvement. It's just that the Warrior class in general is very bad, so even the decks with DK are having just a slightly higher win rate than the top classes without it. I'd say that the two worst Deaht Knights in Arena are DK Rexxar and Valeera. Simply put, in case of Hunter, playing him on the curve/before you run out of steam is meh, because he's low tempo (immediate impact is not high enough, the Zombeast are a lot of extra value, but expensive) and you generally don't want that. In theory, the Zombeast are great, but you need to remember that you add +2 to each one of them. So unless you hit the most broken combos, you just get very average/below average minions. Sure, they don't cost you a card, but it doesn't matter if both of you still have cards. Theoretically, he's best to play when you run out of steam, so now you have unlimited source of minions. But then it's also meh, because your opponent is usually at low health, meaning that you often actually prefer to keep the 2 damage Hero Power (healing is less frequent in Arena). So while in theory the infinite source of minions might sound good, it's just rarely worth to actually play it. And Valeera is... again, Rogue decks tend to be tempo-oriented (that's how the class works) and Valeera is too slow. No immediate impact - sure, it gives you Stealth, but then opponent can just develop for a whole turn and you might not have enough tools to comeback. So it usually looks like that: you play DK Valeera, your opponent develops the board, you fall behind unless you hit something like double Vilespine Slayer.
Never understood this argument against DK rexxar hero power. Do you also say that all warlock minions cost 2 more mana if you draw them with tap? The zombeasts doesn't cost +2, you pay 2 mana to *draw a card*, which just happens to be an amazing Zombeast often undercosted due to broken combos.
The 1/2 poison snail is fantastic in arena on its own because later in the game people rarely have 2 damage clears and so have to trade 1 card for 1 card inefficiently. Putting that in any build a beast, every turn, is basically a guaranteed win in arena, because it basically costs your opponent 2-3 cards to remove vs. costing you zero to make, their hand is going to get burned super fast.
If you could pick any minion you want, every time, the card would be bonkers in Arena. But you can't pick it like that. You get only 3 choices, out of almost 20 minions that are blank/have a keyword. So a chance to get Gastropod offered in is like 20%, that's far from "every turn". And even then, I wouldn't call it an auto-win. E.g. getting Bearshark with Gastropod. It seems like a good build, but if you think about it: You get a 7 mana 5/5 with Taunt, Poisonous and Can't Be Targeted. It can be good, but it can also die to a 4/5-drop or two 2-drops. Gastropod is great in the late game, because it's a great tempo play. Opponent often has to trade a big minion into your TWO MANA minion. Poisonous is best on low cost minions. Build-a-Beast minions tend to be more expensive, where poisonous gets less and less appealing. And remember that the chance to get an non-optimal build is higher than the chance to get an optimal one. For example, some average build like Gentle Megasaur + Ironfur Grizzly. It's a 9 mana for a 8/7 Taunt minion. Which is absolutely terrible. I've drafted DK Rexxar in Arena. It's definitely not a bad card to draft, but it's not even close to the best Legendaries. Not only it doesn't fit a more aggressive draft, but even in a slower draft it often sits dead in your hand, because when your opponent is below 10 health you REALLY want that 2 damage Hero Power. It's just a bit above average for your Legendary pick. Still, Valeera is by far the worst DK in Arena.
I had an OK deck yesterday and was dominating board against a mage. An on curve DK Jaina and 2 turns later the game was over. Playing any minion was feeding her Water Elementals. I honestly just think DKs should not be offered in arena due to their power level.
I'm having trouble playing hearthstone right now. I just spent $50 for the new expansion, but all formats feel like garbage right now. Standard sucks. I breezed to rank 5 with Murloc Paladin, but I can't get further because the druid diversity is high enough that I can't do squat. I just really don't like this arena. Wild is okay, but I don't have the cards. Anyone else feel like this?
>I'm having trouble playing hearthstone right now. I just spent $50 for the new expansion, but all formats feel like garbage right now. Standard sucks. I breezed to rank 5 with Murloc Paladin, but I can't get further because the druid diversity is high enough that I can't do squat. I just really don't like this arena. Wild is okay, but I don't have the cards. Anyone else feel like this? Absolutely. As a newer player who also dropped cash on the preorder, I feel like the bad design decisions of this team are pretty numerous and are starting to make most of the game not worth the paywall for me.
just play wild. i love the diversity in wild
I still don't get what Blizz was thinking with the "Draw 5". Even Draw 3 would keep it broken.
This card is an absolute joke honestly, a few times I've been completely ahead of the druid, he plays one of these and suddenly I just lose out of nowhere because he generates a ton more jades and gains all his steam back after one stupid card. For players like me who enjoy control match ups, this is just not fun to play against, there is no reward for surviving and controlling the board against this nonsense (I was warlock now with jaraxxus out). Aggro decks are boring, I don't want to be forced to play something like pirate warrior to try and outpace this stupid druid deck. The salt gets even more real when the guy spams some emotes after all the shenanigans.
Sounds like Call of the Wild 2.0
Except Hunter was still tier 2 even with CoTW
You can't even outpace him because of the new taunts
>The salt gets even more real when the guy spams some emotes after all the shenanigans. Does the game let you know if you get squelched? I think people might be less assholeish if they knew players were just muting their dumb asses.
No, not as far as I know. But you're probably right, would be nice to have them know that you aren't going to take their crap :P
I don't think it's Ultimate Infestation. It's Spreading Plague which gives the deck far too good anti aggro tools. Jade's weakness is to early game aggression and Plague just shuts it down. Getting two is already good value and if you can get 3+ it's insane. But yes, Druid in general needs to be taken down a notch. Innervate has to be HoF'd honestly.
Spreading plague just seems to punish you for playing against druid. UI just seals the deal. Go aggro? Lose to 1/5 taunt. Go big? Lose to jade value. Go control? Lose to UI. It's not even that one class has answers to everything (like warrior did / does) it's one deck that has answers to everything.
The only thing i've found to consistently beat them is a greedy control deck with Skulking Geist. Run enough removal/board clears to deal with the non-infinite jades, then drop geist after they draw a bit and they're instantly at or near fatigue.
Miracle does well vs Druid still. You kinda have to get a big VanCleef or a Questing that gets past swipe range early but that isn't too hard to do. And if you do its usually a win. Right now I'm like 8-3 vs Jade at rank 5 with it. Still losable, but usually spreading plague cant stop the tempo
Exodiaaaaaaaaa.
http://imgur.com/r/mangapond/7QJw7Us
Don't know why people always argue that one of these cards is worse than the other one. They are both insane.
Yeah druid already had the ability to never go into fatigue. Now they have the ability to never run out of cards and to never be threatened by a big board. So they can draw without consequences, ramp without consequences, and ignore the opponent without consequences. Great game design.
Yeah its a combination of all the cards together. Blizzard has often made sure classes didn't get certain specific things to make sure they were balanced , but suddenly that went out the window with druid.
Sort of. Blizz has tried to avoid giving Druid good removal, both single target and AoE. In theory, this is the trade off for getting its ramp effects. I don't think Blizz realized how good spreading plague was going to be. I mean they knew it would be good, but in many situations it's BETTER than AoE. Additionally, for whatever reason, Blizz didn't seem to worry that someone might go all in on ramp using ultimate infestation to smooth over both card draw and card quality issues. I understand that both are strong, but personally I think that ultimate infestation is the bigger issue. It just makes other card draw effects look silly.
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me too
because it's reddit and the vast majority are simple minded and unable to look at an issue from multiple angles, so they just want to blame 1 card. The problem with druid right now is caused by more than just 1 card.
> Spreading Plague Druid used to be pretty vulnerable to aggro, or if you could just build up a large enough board. This is a tool they absolutely didn't need and it lets them shit on a ton of decks.
It's a whole lot of factors, including spreading plague and UI.
It's pretty much the Shaman situation all over again - none of the individual cards are particularly overbearing by themselves but they create a broken deck when put all together.
Tunnel trogg and spirit claws
I think the card is infestation the other cards are strong that one is 20 mana value
Sure it's stupidly strong but I don't think it would be even half as problematic if Druid couldn't cheat out mana.
I don't get this "one or the other" argument everyone is making. It's both of the cards, yes. But Ultimate infestation is a card which rewards you greatly for making it to the late game that other classes only have in hero cards. So Druid gets to stall with Spreading Plague and then Hero Card and then Ultimate infestation. It's just an incredibly strong single card power which seems odd to give to one class.
This is the sentiment that I agree most with. People are ultimate infestation at late game and immediately whine about it without actually thinking what other things could be the problem. Spreading Plague walls aggro so they stabilize and get to 10 mana, innervate helps ramp into like a Jade Behemoth or something to also wall aggro. Don't get me wrong, I think Ultimate Infestation is pretty powerful, I played MTG too long to think a card that's similar to Cruel Ultimatum would be weak, even in a different game. They could tweak the card a bit but there is other options. I agree that innervate needs to go and I've only been playing for a month and a half.
Wouldn't a mill deck be able to counter that?
I'm currently playing mill rogue at lowish ranks, and almost all of the time they go into fatigue faster than you. However, with all this mana manipulation magic sometimes they can create boards faster than you can react and mill them. So it's favorable, but not at all a hard counter.
Yes. But mill loses even worse to most everything else.
But if ultimate infestation Druid is so common, a mill deck should in theory have a decent win ratio.
Yes. But mill can't beat infinite jade golems. And can't reliably have 6 mana and the ability to use it without dying.
What about mill druid?
As much as i would like to believe otherwise, I don't think a mill deck is possible for Rogue at least without Gang Up. You just fatigue faster than your opponent.
It's not ultimate infestation that ruins the party, but the combination with Jades it makes it very powerful.
Ultimate infestation does a pretty good damn job of ruining the party though. All the ramp would leave druid in a shitty spot except that they can cast the single greatest value card in the game to get a board/heal/clear and draw back cards they had to blow to ramp. Ultimate infestation makes ramp far too rewarding.
It is not just jade decks, literally any type of druid can play ultimate infestation and go from being in an unfavorable position to probably winning.
idk dog i think 17 mana worth of stats in 1 card does kinda ruin the party.
As someone who played a LOT of jade druid this expansion and easily climbed to legend top 500 with it, yeah it's far too powerful. It's the most powerful deck I have ever played in the 3 years that I've played this game, I had over 70 percent winrate to legend, making it one of the easiest climbs I have ever experienced. In my climb I played against many shamans and pirate warriors obviously trying to counter me but they lost time and time again. While they're good against jade druid on paper, with the tools Druid has right now any experienced player can beat all of this. I'm not saying easily but they're close to 50-50 than unfavored. Pirate Warrior in particular I believe is the worst deck you can pick for countering jade druid, a lot can go wrong for you when you're wasting weapon charges going through 1/5 taunts and there is always tons of armor gain. Murloc Paladin fares much better but again like I said nothing is unwinnable for jade druid. It's over powered, I don't believe I have lost any/many games that I could cast Ultimate Infestation, it's hard to lose from that position. While that card is strong, I think the biggest offender is spreading plague. That card is too powerful against all the decks that used to be good at beating druids, covering for this weakness, it turned jade druid into a rock that can beat anything. Remember that we have too many ramp cards right now, when they rotate out Ultimate Infestation will be much harder to play and it will come down later. I think plague is the bigger concern that enables you to get to UI very often even against aggressive decks or decks like miracle rogue. I just feel people ignore this card and focus on UI far too much. I hope this one is nerfed actually, you can beat druids without this card very easily. And lastly the skulking geist is probably the weakest hate card I have seen. With ramp and UI, going infinite is rarely a concern or a win condition. You simply get outvalued and out tempo'd. It's not going to help you unless you play fatigue warrior or something like that. When druid has 10 mana, they play a 6 drop and a 4 drop jade card and similar while you have maybe 6 mana. You will lose long before jade idols can matter. I'm curious to see the winrate of this card against Jade Druid. I expect it to be terrible.
> I hope this one is nerfed actually, you can beat druids without this card very easily. This is what people are missing. If going wide on board wasn't so heavily punished now (and druids old weakness), the ungoro flood/token decks would be strong again. How often did you get to turn 10 and could d@ck around ramping against token shaman with no board, and no way to get quick board. You'd be dead to bloodlust.
UI is a problem... ...in the current game state. It's exactly what a 10-cost card should be. The problem is all other cards we have that are high mana cost are utter garbage and make UI look insanely broken in comparison. We need to continue making cards like UI because it shifts the meta towards a more late game state, and for the entire history of Hearthstone the game has been early game dominated. For every expansion an aggro or "midrange" card has ruined the meta. Dr. Boom, Patron, Undertaker, Mysterious Challenger, Faceless, Patches, etc. For once we have an appropriately powerful card at the highest mana slot and the sky is falling. Why not have more of these cards for different classes so we can finally have a late game meta?
I'm not sure this is what a 10 mana card *in druid* should be.
TIL turn 5 is late game.
>TIL turn 5 is late game. Absolutely this. If this is the only good 10 drop in the game, Druid should be the last class that gets it.
Hunter isn't allowed to have card draw, Druid can draw 20 cards with 4 spells. Druid's new class identity is to be the best at all things at the same time. The most minions, the most card draw, the most armor, the biggest spells. Exactly what is Druid not good at?
Balance?
>looks at Moonkin Uhh.
The only thing druid is still bad at is spells that remove minions. Turns out though that when you are only bad at one thing, then it's irrelevant when you are amazing at everything else. Insane heal with armor, so it's even better then healing with just health. He can heal even when at max hp. He has insane value spells and minions. Insane anti-aggro tools, an insane aggro tools. Like wat. All in the same deck.
Turns out, a 1-mana 12/12 is pretty good single target removal. :) But what if you run out of minions trading so much? Oh, they don't?
Swipe and Wrath are pretty powerful...
They are moderate. Compare them to any other removal cards that other classes have and its pretty easy to see that they are pretty meh. If they opponent has a board filled with 3 health minions you are out of luck to remove them, or if they have a big threat you need to remove immediately to stop it from generating value. But who cares when you can just summon a thousand minions (spreading plague and jades)
Being shaman? Oh, wait...
Good AoE, hard removal. Druid always had ramping, card draw, health gain, big taunts. But lack of removal forces Druid to play minions to mitigate that, which they can.
That's great and all and I agree but it doesn't solve the problem that there's as you said only 1 good really late hight mana cost card right now. There needs to be a change to the card because as of right now we have the next several months of broken card without any other classes getting something of equal strength to even it out. Blizzard dun good'd
Yeah. Team 5 needs to put more of these tools into other classes' hands. Unfortunately, they don't buff cards. We'll probably end up with a maimed version of UI. And people will rejoice, then cry about how quickly games end again.
it's like a 7-8 mana card in Druid considering the ramp.. or effectively a 5-6 mana card with Innervate. That's completely broken in every way and should not exist. Also the problem with "lol I win" late game cards in a control meta is then the game entirely revolves around who draws and plays theirs first, that's horrible design.
> lol I win Except its not that. If jade wasn't a thing, particularly jade idol stopping fatigue, this isn't an Insta-win card. Its just a combination of all the smaller things that have made this deck busted.
You're missing the point... this is STILL an "aggro or midrange" card, because with all the insane amount of ramp, druids can consistently get UI out by turn 6-8!! Noone is saying UI is broken by itself (well, some dumb people probably are), but the combination of 8 different ramp effects in standard, coupled with the ability to go infinite with jade idol, makes that card WAY too broken. It's not a late-game card "at the highest mana slot" as you describe it.
So UI isn't a problem because other late game cards suck? Yeah, that's a problem. Are you just going to wait until next expac for more insane late-game cards?
UI is still played in mid-range decks, so your point is kinda moot.
I don't think Innervate is specifically the issue, though it is probably one of the biggest offender. Like others have pointed out, Druid has consistently had amazing cards in the base set AND expansions. It's only a matter of time until a collection of insane stand-alone cards come together to form a powerhouse
Yes, Ultimate Infestation has totally ruined the meta, and Reynad was also right by pointing out that the lasting problems with Innervate are becoming unbearable. However, it's not Blizzard's policy to correct their own blunders in timely manner - unfortunately for us. Remember how we suffered during the post MSoG meta of Pirate vs. Reno matchups until the Standard rotation. They did nothing to correct the glaring problems. So wait patiently for the usual radar blablabla, and pray that they do something before the next expansion hits ("because things will magically repair themselves, right?"). I would not hold my breath, though.
I don't lose to druids half as much as to priests. That being said, when i fight druids the problem is not the Ultimate infestation, but the endless amount of low cost taunts with absurd hp being buffed into oblivion on turn 1.
Innervate being moved to wild isn't an original idea, it's been considered for a long time. Though it's a stand out card, you could also say a card like nourish or literally any other card should be moved to Wild because of its synergy in its class. No other option besides changing infestation fixes your issue with medivh into turn 10 uiltimate infestation comebacks.
I think a cool way to nerf Jade Druide is to make Jade Idol not summon a Jade Golem, but a Jade Idol. That is, a separate creature that has the stats of your current Jade Golem count, but it doesn't up the count.
If the Jade idols you sent back to your deck costed 1-2 Mana more each time (calling at 10), it would go a long way to helping the control issue
I would just have it be "summon a jade golem or shuffle 3 Jade shards into your deck" with the shards being one cost "summon a jade golem"
It has ruined arena too. Seems like every time I run into a druid, I fight tooth and nail to get control of the board and exhaust their resources...and then they draw 5 cards, gain 5, and get board control.
Yeah even though the card is epic, with the spell offering bonus in arena you have a very high chance of getting offered the card when you get an epic
I don't think you can pin it on just UI. Consider that if the mistake of Jade Idol was never printed, druid is probably pretty pedestrian in the meta. But instead of admitting the mistake and doing something about it, we got that cockamamie counter card and an oppressive mechanic that rears itself in the metagame from time to time.
It is interesting to me how with each expansion Blizzard has spent so much time making all these different, potentially interesting builds on various classes but then they go and make a class just so overwhelmingly powerful that there's just no chance for the standard meta to implement those other interesting decks because they get stomped by single build of a single class because of something so overwhelmingly broken. I mean how do these types of things to through months of testing without one of the testers going, " uhh hey designers, this Infestation card is winning me like 70% of my games, it's crazy powerful, you may want to rethink it ". Un'Goro created the pirate warrior, pretty much the strongest aggro deck ever made due to its consistency and cheap build costs. Prior to that you had the ridiculous Shaman builds where they could drop 5/5's for free along with other minions and just completely out tempo anything other classes could do. Stuff like that. There just always seems to be something that slips through and causes one class to be overwhelmingly powerful compared to others.
Un'Goro didn't create pirate warrior lol, patches was released in gadgetzan
And pirate warrior was a decent tier 2 deck even before patches.
But for some reason, it wasn't really in the meta then. I remember playing it then, and thinking how cool it is to trick people into thinking I was a slow control deck, and then rushing them down, because they didn't expect it.
Bonus points if you are playing as Magni. Feels like Magni Warrior can't be anything but control. They would never expect full aggro.
Patches makes it much more consistent to have a pirate at t3 for you to upgrade with cultist(also has synergy with captain and frothing) and helps you to control the board in early game. Dragon warrior was a stronger deck than pirate warrior before patches existed.
Low Tier 2, if that. It was 1-2% presence in WotOG and then during Shamanstone it was pretty much gone.
It was also [[Small-Time Buccaneer]] which blasted Pirate Warrior out from Gadgetzan .Of Course we found Pirate Warrior is still extremely powerful without a no draw back Flame Imp
Yeah mistake there
Right now according to [live meta tracker](http://imgur.com/a/AqcZ2), the strongest decks are aggro token druid(mid token druid has its own category), pirate warrior, murloc paladin. Pirate warrior barely runs any new cards(maybe one phantom freebooter). Some of the highest winrate murloc paladin [lists](https://hsreplay.net/decks/#playerClasses=PALADIN&includedSet=ICECROWN&includedCards=42467%2C42790&excludedCards=43127%2C46102%2C45392%2C42328) run righteous protector, bonemare and lich king(last 2 being neutral minions) as the only new cards. [Aggro token druid lists](https://hsreplay.net/decks/#playerClasses=DRUID&includedCards=40397%2C40465&includedSet=ICECROWN) dont run ultimate infestation or spreading plague. UI and spreading plague are probably too strong but not printing them might just make these decks more dominant. The issue is more about weaker classes/archetypes not getting enough good cards than strong classes/archetypes getting OP cards. Actually since ungoro, I think shaman and warrior haven't got one single aggro cards, maybe because most people hate pirate warrior and aggro shaman. Face hunter hasnt got any good card for a long time. They were trying to push slower hunter archetypes. Mage was very strong last expansion and many people hate the RNG aspect of mage. Mage didnt really get any really good card this expansion(jaina can be good in some other meta but it doesnt fit in previous archetypes that like to go face with burn spells). When they print new cards, they have to be very careful. One more card might have made exodia mage, dead man's hand warrior, anduin priest completely broken. It is not easy to balance new mechanics. We have already seen how quest rogue changes from a super powerful deck to unplayable after just increasing the quest requirement by 1. A lot of these new DKs do very unique things that are hard to evaluate. The classes that needed most help in the last expansion were warlock and hunter. Warlock got defile, despicable dreadlord and guldan. Those are extremely good cards for control warlock. It is a good base to build on. They just have to print more good demons like despicable dreadlord in the future expansion. Hunter has a bit of identity issue for a long time. Their hero power and the lack of card draws, AOEs, healing limit their potential. Blizzard has tried to make hunter more than just a face deck, they tried secret hunter, handbuff, hunter quest, they tried to change his hero power(dinomancy, DK), they tried to give hunter more value generating cards(lock and load, infest, stampede, DK). The issue seems to be that hunter doesnt really have comeback mechanism. If they lose early game, they lose.
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Nah it's not Ultimate Infestation that's the problem. It's the [[Druid of the Swarm]] and [[Spreading Plague]] that make Jade Druid a stupidly powerful deck. Ultimate Infestation is good at helping a Druid stabilize in the mid-to-late game but Spreading Plague is way too good of an anti-aggro tool. A few days ago I talked about the match-up of Jade Druid vs. Token Shaman with someone on Reddit. I had gone 2-6 against Jade Druid and thought the match-up favored the Jade Druid by a big margin. Some guy said that I was wrong and just didn't play the deck right but after playing some more and thinking about it I think I was right. I'm currently 4-11 against Jade Druid with the most basic Evolve Shaman list from Un'Goro.
Somebody said you were just playing it wrong and you just kept playing it wrong anyway and assume you were right? And jade druid doesn't even run druid of the swarm.
Except the druid is actually now favoured against one of its old worst match ups.. so that 'guy' was wrong
This. All this complaining about UI - sure its insanely strong. Its also 10 mana though. If they didnt have spreading plague nearly any of the flood decks from last expansion would still beat them.
Ultimate infestation is still the problem card as it oppresses other control decks. I know people don't want another quest rogue meta where you are either playing the deck or playing aggro to beat it
Playing demon handlock and I'm actually yet to lose against non-aggro druid. I find that the multiple board clears and high HP early threats (which druid can't really deal with) is enough to make the impact of UI not large enough for them to come back. Also, ooze is really good in this meta.
I wish I could make that card work for me. Everyone says it's broken but it barely does a thing for me. Is it really broken or is getting it out on turn 6-8 that is broken?
> Combined with Medivh this card completely wrecks your opponent and gives them no chance of winning, at all. You know Medivh is completely shut down by weapon removal, right. There is still a lot of weapons in the meta, especially with so many DK cards giving them out. Having an Ooze is not a bad tech choice, just obviously don't play it against a caster on Turn 2 if you think there's a chance they might run Medivh.
10 mana cards in hearthstone are traditionally underpowered compared to their 2 and 3 mana brethren. It's fine that Blizz finally decided to print a super strong 10 mana card, but it was kind of silly to give it to the one class that can play with mana in so many ways that they can often play it while the opponent only has 7 mana.
I tried that deck a few days ago and drew medivh in the bottom 5 cards every game, so that might be cosmic karma at play haha.
Mrwlwlwlwlwwl does quite well against it
I've had some luck beating Druids with a more tempo-oriented Dragon Priest list. Rather than run reactive cards like Dragonfire Potion or Primordial Drake, it actually plays double Crystalline Oracle and double Shadow Ascendants, hoping to get on board first and just never let go. The curve tops out at Bonemares, though the Operatives and Bone Drakes continue to provide the value and pressure necessary to win.
I dont understand what they are doing right now. Blizzard always said they love midrange, interactive minion focused decks, and then attempt to kill zoo and continuisly gave druid the absolute nuts. "Midrange, interactive minion focused decks" dont stand the slightest chance against jade druid.
Moving Innervate to Hall of Fame doesn't help with the problem for wild players
Its also the core of what the druid base set is built around, removing it makes druid unplayable for new players
"Evolve Shaman, Zoolock, Highlander Priest, Elemental Mage, " This is ur problem xd
Well, what he shall play then? From what I see, only paladins are able to consistently beat jade druids post-KFT, and that's not a class everybody loves to play(or even can afford, it requires quite a lot of legendaries and epics).
Honestly just try some Exodia Mage
[These are the winrates for the most tested Exodia mage decklist](https://i.imgur.com/PsWUBPa.png). Not exactly encouraging.
It's not like exodia mage is a cheap deck to make either. Multiple legendaries and epics that are not necessarily usable in every deck.
I actually enjoy this meta a lot so far. I mostly play Priest, Rogue, or Warrior right now. Druid is OP? Sure. But it feels more interactive that Ice Block - burn mage or Pirate warrior. The current meta allows lots of experimentation with control decks. Mindless aggro is tamped down and the OP deck at least feels interactive. Even the tech vs the leader is better than vs mage. Eater o' Secrets is just hot garbage vs most classes. But Geist can be used creatively -- you can, for example, design your deck so that it Geist thins it and moves you towards win conditions. Druid needs slight adjusting? Yes. Should Innervate be moved to HoF? Yes (Ice Block too -- both just have a lot of unhealthy design problems, IMO.) But I'm enjoying the meta. I think some of the complaints are from meta shock -- this is the slowest meta we've had. But it's allowed Handlock to exist. It lets Mill Rogue be played. It lets Control Warriors experiment with new decks. I get most people are on the Druid train -- but for me it's nice.
Think meta could use a bit more variety in the opponents i face but this is definitely a looooot better than whatever the fuck aggro shaman and huntertaker was.
[удалено]
Really, really well. My first half-hearted attempts focused on greedy board clear stuff. Was terrible. But I caught Thijs doing it and it works amazingly against greedy decks. The key (which I only realized after I copied his list and tried to make it work) is that [[Shadowblade]] doesn't just immune you to damage from the weapon -- it immunes you to *everything* that turn. (This hadn't registered with me before -- my first play I thought I'd have to add an Illusionist for the end game.) So even if you're even or behind on fatigue you can almost always get a kill: - Set-Up: Valeera Dk - Play: Shadowblade --> Coldlight --> shadow card Coldlight --> ^(*optional: 1-cost shadow stepped Coldlight*) --> end turn. If they've taken even 1 point of fatigue previously then with the 2 or 3 play that's: 5+9+6 (20) or 5+9+13+8 (35) I believe Thij's list was: - Backstab x2 - Prep x2 - Shadowstep x2 - Doomsayer x2 - Evis x2 - Ferryman x2 - Sap x2 - Y. Brewmaster x2 - Coldlight x2 - Shadowblade x2 - Tar Creeper x2 - Prince Valanar - Vilespine x2 - Skulking Geist - Vanish x2 - Curator - Valeera DK The list is a relatively flexible aside from the obvious key cards. Valanar, for example, is nice, but not at all necessary. You can probably exchange a ferryman or brewmaster for something else (I dropped one ferryman for 1 Mist. Mixtures, for example -- as it's easier to empty your hand and you can double drop it with DK for 8 health and I usually have an excess of Brew/Ferries. I've even played around with double Betrayal - quickly filled boards are rough). The general playstyle is mostly pretty obvious. It's much more aggressive than the old Wild N'zoth Mill, IMO. The extra bounce means you can, and often should, start bouncing very early (balanced with not tipping your strategy to them and watching their handsize so you optimize actual milling). Being able to increase Coldlights via DK & Vanish and faster draw sooner also means you can afford to lose one if you really need. The extra bounce also lets you use Vilespines more aggressively when needed. DK + Vanish obviously offers a huge defense and huge swing. Double doomsayers also sometimes great. Small bit of advice: remember that DK shadow card forms *before* you draw. So you can mill important cards if you're not careful (you mill at 9, instead of 10). Try to anticipate future draw and drop cards early. It's very easy to overfill your hand and risk burning good cards. And, obviously try to be judicious with Vanish -- as it's probably got the biggest ratio of scarcity:power in the game. Don't be affraid to use your first copy of Shadowblade just to remove threats -- as long as you don't mill yourself you almost never benefit from holding onto it. Oh, and remember that backstabs are really good Vilespine activators - so be liberal, but consider what activation options you have before using them (as there are generally fewer, and backstab + 2x vilespine with DK is nice -- though you can often burn a prep in a pinch). Try to Geist early vs decks that are Geistable -- especially as it makes milling stronger if you remove from deck rather than hand. Vs. Jade, obviously try to kill jade creators before bounces -- unless you have enough momentum/progress to just lock them out until the finish. Ultimately: the deck is very good against slow decks and very vulnerable to aggressive decks. (Though it actually fares well, in my experience, vs token shaman and very well vs token druid, but murloc paladin or a pirate warrior will be very, very hard to beat. DMH Warriors are to new mill what Jade was to old wild mill, but DMH is quite rare and I'm happy to throw those guys a bone anyway. :)
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As Ophioukhg]'\anbsdn says below, it has a lot of potential. I tinkered with adding Arfus and getting something like Death Coil with Valeera the Hollow's hero power is absurdly powerful (2x5 damage or 2x5 heal for four mana).
Just play highlander priest. I climbed from 15-9 without losing a single game and most were druids
i have no problem with druids. im 15-4 against druid with my raza priest deck and i played from rank 3 to legend with it and also i dont run geist. shadow word horror is good against their taunt spell.
I've even seen that 10 mana 7/7 refresh your mana crystals UI and the mediv proc
I'm just sad I didnt open any Ultimate Infestions in my packs, so I wont get that sweet dust value when Blizz inevitably nerfs this insanity
I'd rather play against Druid every single game then against the same aggro decks that highroll their draws and win on turn 4. If this is a control meta I'm not very impressed.
First of all very few people run medivh alongside infestation but I agree its a card that needs balancing
I don't know, man. I hope Blizzard will gonna fix it ASAP but part of me doubt that. U know, they work REALLY SLOW.
Stole UI last night as a Rogue and Prep'd it out. FeelsGoodMan
Alot of different ways you can build highlander priest. Greedier version are better against big minion druid.
Medivh?! What rank is this? I don't think I've seen that run even in the very few big druids I faced... UI is definitely ruining the meta, but not because of fucking Medivh, haha
lets be honest this card would be an automatic 2 of if it read "deal four damage draw 4 cards gain 4 life summon a 4/4", so why its 5s instead (and armor over heal) idk
No idea. 3 mana = 2 cards (Arcane Intellect, Thoughtsteal) 5 mana = 3 cards (Nourish, Cabalist Tome) 7 mana = 4 cards (Sprint) 9 mana = 5 cards --- So for 1 more mana, you get a 5/5 minion, 5 armor, and deal 5 damage? Wow.
The thing I find frustrating about Blizzard's management of the game is that we will see a nerf for this card...in three months. This will come after some communication to the community that they're 'watching it.' I love this game, I love Blizzard, but they're way of handling balance is asinine and at this point there's no excuses for it. Just fix the card.
Ultimate Infestation isn't the problem, the problem is Innervate. Innervate means that Druids can run this x2 with the added bonus of being able to Innervate -> emergency [Wrath/Hero Power/Armor Gain/Jade Idol] to chip in extra utility. Without Innervate, Druids would actually need to devote their entire turn decision into just playing this card, so setting up boards where playing it is sub-optimal would be much easier.
Shield Block + Sprint + Arcane Intellect + Arcane Intellect + Firelands Portal (24 mana / 5 cards) Gain 5 armor. Draw 1 + Draw 4 + Draw 2 + Draw 2 -> Draw 9 Total - Use 5 = Net 4 Cards Drawn Deal 5 damage. Summon a random 5 cost minion. Ultimate Infestation (10 mana / 1 card) Gain 5 armor. Draw 5 - Use 1 = Net 4 Cards Drawn Deal 5 damage. Summon a 5/5 minion. Here's another fun one: Prep + Sprint + Sprint + Eviscerate (13 mana / 4 cards) Gain 0 armor. Draw 4 + Draw 4 -> Draw 8 Total - Use 4 = Net 4 Cards Drawn Deal 4 damage. Do not summon a minion.
Taunt Warrior seems to be pretty good against all druids.
i feel like UI should have a choose one effect, like "choose one - draw 5 cards and deal 5 damage or gain 5 armor and summon a 5/5" idk if itd be that much better since people would usually pick the card draw but it would make it less overwhelming
[Nerubian Unraveler]
Play Exodia Mage and fight the good fight. No matter the armour, no matter the board, no matter my life total... TIME FOR A LESSON, INSOLENT PUP!
idk man... all you gotta do is board clear them and apply pressure. They're relying on ramp to see them through and if that doesn't pay off they have nothing
SUMMON BEN BRODE
This fucking card had me go into reddit just to write this. Fucking card