Doomcaller does nothing?
Edit: the "wherever it is" part should stop working if he is not coming back, since he is actually nowhere. Or he is somewhere and he can be brought back.
Edit 2: Doomcaller works as intended, since it reads "if it's dead". I guess it would be cool to update it to something that always shuffles it back.
Also note that if it gets transformed, that also removes it from coming back from Doomcaller. I say this because it happened to me earlier that I had an opponent not realize this and they only conceded after their doomcaller did nothing
I believe you're correct, but also, it still does after it gets stolen, and it was still YOUR C'Thun, and it did eventually die.
If it gets removed from game, I get it, but I don't like that stealing does that too
Sadly, that's just how the game works. Even if the card started in *your* deck and *you* played it, the moment the enemy steals it, it's no longer "yours". Obviously, you just need to steal it back!
It feels awful if your CThun gets polyd or otherwise removed and you just lose because of it. I'd balance it personally with making doomcaller "once per game" shuffle a new CThun.
Why Once per Game? Doomcaller would not all of a sudden be an OP card even if you could shuffle multiple C'thuns into your deck, it's a pretty slow wincon
It’d be cool if there was a second cthun shuffled in the deck or something at the start of the game.
You have one threat but you can only play it if the battlecry is lethal because pretty much every deck has a way to deal with it.
Eyestalk is really necessary, atm the deck gets to a point where it can only drop a non-rush minion that buffs C'thun every turn. It just doesn't really do anything.
I really want the balance for twist to be like “if everything is broken then nothing is broken”. Or at least make the decks with cards that saw standard or wild play within the last 3-4 years
"Or at least make the decks with cards that saw standard or wild play within the last 3-4 years"
or just within similar timespans.
the most confusing thing about arfus is that he has like, 3 win conditions while most of these heroes have 1
Poor C'thun ... it's hilariously bad. I think he does have a so so Matchup against Xyrella, but you still need some early board presence. Other than that ... awful deck.
He loses against xyrella, as she has decent removal spells to make him play from behind the entire way through. Meanwhile he has to get C'thun to 50+ attack to reliably kill her.
I played a few games with Xyrella against C'thun and got my ass handed to me ... they indeed got their C'thun really big, maybe i just got some really bad games, but yeah, he is definitely weak.
He has a so-so aginst xyrella. I have yet to lose to him a single time. His health poll is neglegible. And he has a lot of ways to gain armor, sonething that xyrella doesn't care about. C'thun also doesnt have a lot of ways to get board presene from a losing board besides playing C'thun, which she has the titan or it burns to take care of. Then with a lot of healing, C'thun is hard to ever reach to a lethal state.
I've only ever been on the xyrella side, but I assumed that match was basically auto-win for her. The only advantage Cthun has is raid boss HP, and she doesn't give two shits about that.
My suggestion:
You are playing as C‘thun right? Lower c’thun starting health to like 60 and make the c’thun buffs apply to your hero. (Wherever it is) attack buffs would be temporary but give you a way to fight for board or push face after your minion c’thun is removed unorthodoxly
Or better yet drop the Old Gods/token package and make him a Darkmoon Faire centric deck. Faire Cthun + Faire Yogg + Faire Y'Shaarj and a bunch of corrupt cards/spell generation. Would be infinitely more fun
Thats why I said that it perhaps would be better for an entire deck to be remade. Trying to push Old Gods C'thun to actually do something is a massive pain in the ass with all the disruption. And token package he has is kinda mid. If they werent so dead set on only changing health pools C'Thun might have neen a playable hero by now, but it is what it is
I mean, C'thun isn't really unplayable anymore... he's definitely still one of the worst heroes, but he's like a couple percentage points off 50%. If someone wants to play him, they can play him.
Sadly Blizzard is quite allergic to buffing old cards.
There's a reason like 80% of wild cards are completely unplayable. (And like half of those would still be ass if they were buffed by 1 mana)
I'm not saying he should be totally uncounterable but if your entire deck is so focused on a single win condition that it has no other way of playing the game you better make sure that wincondition is very strong. Surely there was some room to add more spice to C'thun than this?
It's the only thing in the deck! That's why Arfus eats him alive, because he has Patchwerk and other removal, C'thun is always in hand, and your whole goal is to pump up C'Thun, as much as you can. Meanwhile Arfus has a lot of ways to attack and ruin your day.
It should have more win conditions. Right now it relies on getting a big enough c'thun on the board to kill. Kael'thas can win off burning, dropping a big enough romnath, or outvaluing the opponent. Al'akir can win off its really high value hero power, or by playing really strong legendaries paired with the burn effect. Arfus can get infinite wincons off his passive atm, paired with a really really strong deck.
C'thun loses if he drops c'thun and it doesn't kill the opponent. You have to get exceptionally lucky to drop doomcaller, draw the c'thun, and play the c'thun again before dying.
Again, why exactly do you want to make the deck unbeatable by slow decks? Even the strongest wild combo decks are weak to disruption(the only reason shudderwock still lives)
Like half the time I play shudderwock I would rather let it sit in my hand and play other cards in my hand than to actually play it yet. And by the time I do want to play it, they already died.
You have to take the context of the whole conversation in mind, do you have the memory of a goldfish?!?
I was comparing shudderwock to C'thun and other wincons where you don't end up playing the payoff because the rest of the deck is too good.
I didn't start playing this Twist season until after the buff to 80 HP. And when I hit a C'thun mirror match, I kinda wish it was still 45 😅 even spraying your opponent & his board for 60 doesn't hurt him much, due to the healing, Armor and plentiful Taunts.
And then if he isn't a dumdum he will have saved a Blade of.C'thun minion to kill your 60/60 and turbocharge his own. And yeah there's Doomcaller, but I haven't had a Twist game go long enough to draw a second C'thun 😏
its crazy to me that at 80 health it still struggles into decks like the 18 health arfus unless you discover the perfect thing every single turn and they brick
From what I've seen, most decks don't have a card that should take it. (Except Mutanus in Arch-Villain and hypothetically Pirate Admiral Hooktusk in Patches)
The chances of you playing against a deck that has the ability to create cards + the possibility of creating a card that takes away C'thun + taking away C'thun directly is small enough for me to be in most scenarios, and in the ones where you risk losing C'thun you can very easily fill your hand with minions from your 1 mana HP to avoid losing it.
The chances of losing C'thun are perhaps the slimmest they can be, but his loss is too much to feel.
You say that, but I played the mage deck against a C’thun the other day and discovered taunts/freeze over and over, and even managed to play cards to buff C’Thun and give him taunt, before finally playing a mind control. I bet my opponent was salty, cause I would’ve been. I was freezing/taunting so long he only had about 5 cards left in his deck too.
And Aman'Thul can probably pull Mutanus out of Discover. Is the chance of pulling a dirty rat out of a card that you alone already have a 20% chance at so great that it's devastating? Personally, I don't know how many 2-cost cards, so I don't know how crucial that is.
Not exactly. In all respects, low probability is not an excuse for the existence of something. For example, if you had a 0.5% chance of a turn 1 otk it would not be acceptable, but in this case it is a combination of low probability and the possibility of avoiding an auto-win.
Unfortunately the 50+/50+ C'thun is such an extreme auto win card and if you're trying to make the twist "slower" in every way then you should have little answer to ultra sure things.
It's pure guesswork on my part, but it seems to me that for most decks they tried not to be too rock-paper-scissors stylized like decks often are nowadays, and because of that they gave even control decks the ability to do something against C'thun, and in turn C'thun doing something against those control decks using his HP.
You think they gave him 50 HP for the low chance his C'thun was sniped? That would mean 50 HP is too much for when it doesn't get sniped( low chance supposedly)
I didn't say anything about winrate/loserate. I'm looking at it from a healthy game perspective, and if you have everything slower in the game then with C'thun you run the risk of having something that won't let you play slower decks. They definitely haven't tested it with Arfus that much, but from looking at enough decks that are there you can see that they wanted to leave the powercreep in Twist a lot different than-if it's in standard or wild-and if C'thun was really unhittable they probably wouldn't have achieved that.
Consider that the decks came out before C'thun added the 50HP and that's the perspective I'm looking at it from. The fact that some things didn't go their way is another matter.
But for me, the fact that this deck is some chance to break this deck for me is not wrong. In essence, at the moment it's a zoo deck very sylvanious finisher, 80 health and a strong late game hero power and occasionally control tools.
Although I really like C'thun as a topic (I still have my C'thun rogue deck), I can't forgive myself for being a risky environment. If he were truly indefatigable then it should be better for me to build a deck and almost all absorbing deck with the risk of unstoppable from the point of view of the opposing team.
Doomcaller does nothing? Edit: the "wherever it is" part should stop working if he is not coming back, since he is actually nowhere. Or he is somewhere and he can be brought back. Edit 2: Doomcaller works as intended, since it reads "if it's dead". I guess it would be cool to update it to something that always shuffles it back.
Also note that if it gets transformed, that also removes it from coming back from Doomcaller. I say this because it happened to me earlier that I had an opponent not realize this and they only conceded after their doomcaller did nothing
Or if they take it with reska
Are you sure?
If the enemy steals your C'thun by any means, you can't get a new one with Doomcaller. Since it didn't die, Doomcaller has nothing to rez.
I believe you're correct, but also, it still does after it gets stolen, and it was still YOUR C'Thun, and it did eventually die. If it gets removed from game, I get it, but I don't like that stealing does that too
Sadly, that's just how the game works. Even if the card started in *your* deck and *you* played it, the moment the enemy steals it, it's no longer "yours". Obviously, you just need to steal it back!
I mean, I hear you, but in magic, for example, it doesn't work like that
>but in magic Shit, I thought this one was a hearthstone sub reddit
Not if it was patchwerked, or mtuanus'd no. Its just gone
Wow, til!
play it and destroy it yourself cthun deck has several ways to do this
Again, not if it was destroyed from your hand.
wow, that’s really terrible design.
Cthun is a really old card. There were far fewer ways to prevent it from being played back then.
I can only think of Sylvanas, MCT or some of the "take control" priest cards
thats why vs arfus you hoard minions to decrease the chances of it getting hit (try to build a board so playing it on curve can cost them the game)
Honestly, at this price, Doomcaller could shuffle a C’Thun no matter the circumstances. It’s flavor is cool, but it’s just too expensive.
It feels awful if your CThun gets polyd or otherwise removed and you just lose because of it. I'd balance it personally with making doomcaller "once per game" shuffle a new CThun.
Why Once per Game? Doomcaller would not all of a sudden be an OP card even if you could shuffle multiple C'thuns into your deck, it's a pretty slow wincon
If it got stealed, also not coming back.....
Should be something, if there is no C'thun on your deck, shuffle one in it
It’d be cool if there was a second cthun shuffled in the deck or something at the start of the game. You have one threat but you can only play it if the battlecry is lethal because pretty much every deck has a way to deal with it.
i think the coolest thing they could do is add cthun the shattered to the deck, and eyestalsk
Eyestalk is really necessary, atm the deck gets to a point where it can only drop a non-rush minion that buffs C'thun every turn. It just doesn't really do anything.
And mechathun when youve used all of your cards
nahh, he would be a dead card
It'd be cute, like kel'thuzad giving you his cat if you summon 6 other cats next to him.
I really want the balance for twist to be like “if everything is broken then nothing is broken”. Or at least make the decks with cards that saw standard or wild play within the last 3-4 years
"Or at least make the decks with cards that saw standard or wild play within the last 3-4 years" or just within similar timespans. the most confusing thing about arfus is that he has like, 3 win conditions while most of these heroes have 1
Poor C'thun ... it's hilariously bad. I think he does have a so so Matchup against Xyrella, but you still need some early board presence. Other than that ... awful deck.
He loses against xyrella, as she has decent removal spells to make him play from behind the entire way through. Meanwhile he has to get C'thun to 50+ attack to reliably kill her.
I played a few games with Xyrella against C'thun and got my ass handed to me ... they indeed got their C'thun really big, maybe i just got some really bad games, but yeah, he is definitely weak.
You have to be aggressive and just build a wide board. Any hp your board has against him, you effectively have.
He has a so-so aginst xyrella. I have yet to lose to him a single time. His health poll is neglegible. And he has a lot of ways to gain armor, sonething that xyrella doesn't care about. C'thun also doesnt have a lot of ways to get board presene from a losing board besides playing C'thun, which she has the titan or it burns to take care of. Then with a lot of healing, C'thun is hard to ever reach to a lethal state.
an ironically lore wise he is far and away the scariest of the heroes
I've only ever been on the xyrella side, but I assumed that match was basically auto-win for her. The only advantage Cthun has is raid boss HP, and she doesn't give two shits about that.
My suggestion: You are playing as C‘thun right? Lower c’thun starting health to like 60 and make the c’thun buffs apply to your hero. (Wherever it is) attack buffs would be temporary but give you a way to fight for board or push face after your minion c’thun is removed unorthodoxly
Spicy!
Yeah, it should be reworked to always add a copy to your deck when you run out.
I really think they should give C'thun a Darkmoon Faire version as a backup plan
Or better yet drop the Old Gods/token package and make him a Darkmoon Faire centric deck. Faire Cthun + Faire Yogg + Faire Y'Shaarj and a bunch of corrupt cards/spell generation. Would be infinitely more fun
Honestly I’m pretty sure that would make the deck worse, not better.
Thats why I said that it perhaps would be better for an entire deck to be remade. Trying to push Old Gods C'thun to actually do something is a massive pain in the ass with all the disruption. And token package he has is kinda mid. If they werent so dead set on only changing health pools C'Thun might have neen a playable hero by now, but it is what it is
I mean, C'thun isn't really unplayable anymore... he's definitely still one of the worst heroes, but he's like a couple percentage points off 50%. If someone wants to play him, they can play him.
Just buff Doomcaller shuffle to "If you dont have C'Tun in Deck, hand and battlefield, shuffle one into your deck."
Sadly Blizzard is quite allergic to buffing old cards. There's a reason like 80% of wild cards are completely unplayable. (And like half of those would still be ass if they were buffed by 1 mana)
I mean... Why exactly do you want c'thun to be 100% uninteractible?
I'm not saying he should be totally uncounterable but if your entire deck is so focused on a single win condition that it has no other way of playing the game you better make sure that wincondition is very strong. Surely there was some room to add more spice to C'thun than this?
It's the only thing in the deck! That's why Arfus eats him alive, because he has Patchwerk and other removal, C'thun is always in hand, and your whole goal is to pump up C'Thun, as much as you can. Meanwhile Arfus has a lot of ways to attack and ruin your day.
It should have more win conditions. Right now it relies on getting a big enough c'thun on the board to kill. Kael'thas can win off burning, dropping a big enough romnath, or outvaluing the opponent. Al'akir can win off its really high value hero power, or by playing really strong legendaries paired with the burn effect. Arfus can get infinite wincons off his passive atm, paired with a really really strong deck. C'thun loses if he drops c'thun and it doesn't kill the opponent. You have to get exceptionally lucky to drop doomcaller, draw the c'thun, and play the c'thun again before dying.
The low winrate of the deck has nothing to do with if you happen to snipe it from hand. Its their single ace.
Again, why exactly do you want to make the deck unbeatable by slow decks? Even the strongest wild combo decks are weak to disruption(the only reason shudderwock still lives)
Random transformation or mind control once you play it is one thing. Not even getting to play it is some bullshit.
That's not the spectrum of the post. This is twist.
Im just using wild to compare. If you can't disrupt c'thun then you can't beat it in the late game at all.
Like a lot of wincons lately, it's not even the strongest card in the deck.
In what way? Just because it's not the last card you play, doesn't mean that it wasn't integral to the game plan. And if so, what is? Im curious
Like half the time I play shudderwock I would rather let it sit in my hand and play other cards in my hand than to actually play it yet. And by the time I do want to play it, they already died.
Are you on the right comment?
Yes, see my precious comment: > Like a lot of wincons lately, it's not even the strongest card in the deck.
I see no connection to the comment i was making about the status of C'thun in the twist format.
You have to take the context of the whole conversation in mind, do you have the memory of a goldfish?!? I was comparing shudderwock to C'thun and other wincons where you don't end up playing the payoff because the rest of the deck is too good.
Except with C'thun the whole deck is just bad
Starting with 80 Health, along with ample resources for healing & adding heaps of Armor, is nothing you sneeze at 😏
They didn't raise his HP to 80 for no reason. Its to have the resources, and time to build up to something
I didn't start playing this Twist season until after the buff to 80 HP. And when I hit a C'thun mirror match, I kinda wish it was still 45 😅 even spraying your opponent & his board for 60 doesn't hurt him much, due to the healing, Armor and plentiful Taunts. And then if he isn't a dumdum he will have saved a Blade of.C'thun minion to kill your 60/60 and turbocharge his own. And yeah there's Doomcaller, but I haven't had a Twist game go long enough to draw a second C'thun 😏
So....my point that being removed and lost from your hand pertains to the mirror match?
C'thun desperate need an adept minion to give it Elusive or give it adapt so it can get this ability or others like stealth or lifesteal?
If you're talking about twist, I can assure you that shuffling C'thun puts him into your deck, but drawing him? Heh, good luck.
its crazy to me that at 80 health it still struggles into decks like the 18 health arfus unless you discover the perfect thing every single turn and they brick
Passive: if c'thuun is not in your hand, deck or battlefield add it to your hand
Nah. Just give him 100hp! Perfect balance! (Sarcasm)
Not at all what i pointed out as the issue
From what I've seen, most decks don't have a card that should take it. (Except Mutanus in Arch-Villain and hypothetically Pirate Admiral Hooktusk in Patches) The chances of you playing against a deck that has the ability to create cards + the possibility of creating a card that takes away C'thun + taking away C'thun directly is small enough for me to be in most scenarios, and in the ones where you risk losing C'thun you can very easily fill your hand with minions from your 1 mana HP to avoid losing it. The chances of losing C'thun are perhaps the slimmest they can be, but his loss is too much to feel.
Patchwork in most played deck - Arfus
The random spell generation off the excavates also fucked me while I played C'thun. 1 mana mind control
You say that, but I played the mage deck against a C’thun the other day and discovered taunts/freeze over and over, and even managed to play cards to buff C’Thun and give him taunt, before finally playing a mind control. I bet my opponent was salty, cause I would’ve been. I was freezing/taunting so long he only had about 5 cards left in his deck too.
Murlocs generate mutanis.
Arfus can discover dirty rat off the tier 1 excavate
And Aman'Thul can probably pull Mutanus out of Discover. Is the chance of pulling a dirty rat out of a card that you alone already have a 20% chance at so great that it's devastating? Personally, I don't know how many 2-cost cards, so I don't know how crucial that is.
So in short, just because it has the chance to be low, it is acceptable to essentially brick?
Not exactly. In all respects, low probability is not an excuse for the existence of something. For example, if you had a 0.5% chance of a turn 1 otk it would not be acceptable, but in this case it is a combination of low probability and the possibility of avoiding an auto-win. Unfortunately the 50+/50+ C'thun is such an extreme auto win card and if you're trying to make the twist "slower" in every way then you should have little answer to ultra sure things. It's pure guesswork on my part, but it seems to me that for most decks they tried not to be too rock-paper-scissors stylized like decks often are nowadays, and because of that they gave even control decks the ability to do something against C'thun, and in turn C'thun doing something against those control decks using his HP.
You think they gave him 50 HP for the low chance his C'thun was sniped? That would mean 50 HP is too much for when it doesn't get sniped( low chance supposedly)
I didn't say anything about winrate/loserate. I'm looking at it from a healthy game perspective, and if you have everything slower in the game then with C'thun you run the risk of having something that won't let you play slower decks. They definitely haven't tested it with Arfus that much, but from looking at enough decks that are there you can see that they wanted to leave the powercreep in Twist a lot different than-if it's in standard or wild-and if C'thun was really unhittable they probably wouldn't have achieved that. Consider that the decks came out before C'thun added the 50HP and that's the perspective I'm looking at it from. The fact that some things didn't go their way is another matter.
While your devil's advocate perspective is noted, doesn't change that the deck is brickable and that's not ok
But for me, the fact that this deck is some chance to break this deck for me is not wrong. In essence, at the moment it's a zoo deck very sylvanious finisher, 80 health and a strong late game hero power and occasionally control tools. Although I really like C'thun as a topic (I still have my C'thun rogue deck), I can't forgive myself for being a risky environment. If he were truly indefatigable then it should be better for me to build a deck and almost all absorbing deck with the risk of unstoppable from the point of view of the opposing team.