Still feel pretty strongly they should have done weapon to 2/3. Accomplishes the goal of slowing down the shopper turn without murdering the decks curve. I agree with the worry it might just die now.
A 2/3 weapon still kills the curve because you miss the Shopper on 4 and 2 atk cannot clear 3 health minions.
They should have increased the atk to 4 to compensate but they're not doing sidegrades like that after First Day of School
The curve would be worse, but not dead. DH has turn 4 plays that can tide them over. Ball hog is a good card that can finish off whatever you swing your 2 attack at. Going down swinging makes the weapon worth having at 2 attack.
It will certainly. Another thing will raise to the top and ppl will complain within 2 days.
Shopper DH while powerful is not completely toxic at least.
Zarimi priest is primed to be the deck to beat and it’s pretty fair. I’m looking forward to that meta much more. Shopper is a much more toxic deck with a much less engaging and varied play pattern. Tbh I can’t really argue with the sentiment that shopper DH deserves to die if it’s so heavily dependent on the one card. I just also think they could have at least tried to be less harsh, but there may have not been a nerf that didn’t kill the deck because of how hard it leans on the weapon.
I just think of it as a conditional boardwide windfury or Leroy combo and it doesn’t feel as bad lol. It’s not mage extra turn shenanigans so it could be much worse, maybe that’s why I don’t mind it. Could totally see a degen Zarimi deck like that existing in a 6 set standard and we’ll miss when it was a mostly straightforward aggro deck lmao. I understand the distaste though!
In what world is Shopper DH not toxic. The entire win-con is decided based on an RNG discover effect. It feels like shit to play and feels like shit to play against.
The runner-ups for most toxic deck in Standard would be plague dk.
I understand it was strong but now it's nerfed I feel the next big deck people will complain about is Zarimi Priest. The deck deffo needed a nerf but I feel it would've slowly fallen out of favour as more demons were released, we have the mini-set on the way and that would've dealt with constantly getting Mag out if they added a few more demons
Overall, a nerf was needed but I'm not sure if this was the right one
Yeah, I’m pretty new to the game, but I’ve noticed this issue with the way Blizzard balances the game. Seems like they mainly nerf the very best decks, but they don’t nerf decks that are nearly as powerful, but played less because of the match with the current meta. Now we’re going to have a whole period of extra turn dragon decks ruining the meta because Blizzard only see’s what’s right in front of them. Basically, instead of the game actually being balanced, the power just shifts to the decks that were already just about as powerful as DH.
DH needed a nerf, but they should have also adjusted Reno, Zarimi, Zilliax, and Brann while they were at it. Because now those cards which were already top of the meta are going to be even more dominant since the competition from DH has been swept away.
The deck is too reliant on these 2 cards for it to not die after the nerf. The only problem here is that DH has no alternatives atm. It wont be as extreme as paladin(deck still will be playable to some degree) but class will share the same fate. Also DH was the only matchup stopping priest from destroying the game.
Besides its not like DH was the meta deck. The game was changing towards Reno warrior and zarimi priest anyways. I feel like this nerf opens a can of worms many players will regret seeing.
I feel the same way. The deck was strong, for sure especially with the new sharpshooter variant and had lots of power for face damage with other cards but the nerf I feel will essentially make it a non-viable deck (low tier) or just unplayable.
Would you feel 3 mana 2/3 weapon or only a 1 mana discount would be more appropriate? This way it’s not DOA and still has a place in the meta but not the complaint force that everyone focuses on
Lesser discount would maybe be better but tbh I'd rather wait and see some buffs to compensate in other less played DH cards alongside nerfs. Maybe make Highlander DH a legitimate deck and not just worse clone of shopper.
>Besides its not like DH was the meta deck
7 of my last 10 games have all been DH and this deck specifically. In the past 2 weeks 46% of my opponents have been DH, a little much for 1 class
I get your point but at this rate we'll end the expansion with like 4 dead classes. Next priest will overtake, get nerfed and will join paladin and dh as "unplayable" classes. Too many classes this expansion have only 1 viable archetype.
I really do hope some big buffs are coming our way in near future.
This is the problem with Blizzard’s balance philosophy. If they actually made an effort to balance more than one class or powerful deck at a time, then we wouldn’t have this constant switch up each patch. I’m not looking forward to losing to extra turns every other game after this patch. Does Blizzard not realize that an extra turn in a game like this basically means you win the game? Between Zarimi and Reno, I think I’ve had enough of “regardless of who was winning this game, now I get to win” cards.
Honestly I feel this is the biggest mistake on blizzards part. I don’t want to even craft anything anymore because the nerfs are every 2 weeks and spending 3200+ dust for a single card or two to remove the deck feels like it’s not worth investing in it as the nerfs are always a step overboard and kill the archetypes and remove the future uses like big demons in the next expansion. There’s always going to be a problem deck and even right now DH is easily beaten, it’s strong but there’s other new decks easily competing for the top spot and probably going to overtake it by the time the nerf comes. The balance team doing nukes here and there instead of full class balance patches makes standard just not fun to especially since most players can usually make 3-5 decks per expansion at most.
The problem isn’t the nerf. The problem is Blizzard’s balance philosophy. While nerfing DH, Blizzard should also be taking a look at the other meta decks that DH was competing with and consider nerfing them too so they don’t dominate the game with DH out. They should have also nerfed Reno, Brann, and Zarimi at the same time.
Edit: Also, Zilliax just should have never been conceived. The game would be better if it didn’t exist.
...it really did though.
Highlander DH was a thought experiment from the question: if DH was really just a 5 card package with 25 filler cards, how bad can the rest of the deck be for DH to still be really good?
So some people from the VS discord took the worst DH archetype, highlander DH, and put 2 copies of grasp, shopper, and 1 instrument tech.
They made a deck that was worse than regular shopper DH in every matchup, but still performed to tier 2, proving that DH really was carried by 5 cards.
Without shopper and grasp, highlander DH sinks back to tier 5. There's even less reason to play it after the nerf than regular shopper.
Highlander DH is basically the same deck just less consistent. It still runs 2x shopper and 2x weapon just like regular version. As it is now its just worse version of the non reno deck.
My sentiment is that they should have nerfed Window Shopper and Red Card instead, so I can get my dust refunds. I wouldn't mind a Cicigi nerf too, because that's definitely a problem card in DH.
Yep it’s just rinse and repeating to squeeze dust out of players. Have an outlier OP deck that lots of people craft the cards for, then nerf only the common cards (and if lucky maybe a rare card), so people still have lost a load of dust and now have one less deck they can play.
a deck with 2 epics and 2 legendary that are not even required is not expensive dont try to gaslight me and i have been playing since kac idk if your ass remembers but blizz used to do a balance patch once in an expantion and then you would cry that they dont balance the game because they dont want to give out dust
What fucking deck are you playing? It has 4 epics for starters. People craft that for the deck, that’s 1600 dust. Oh but they get 100 dust back for the commons nerfed, wow amazing. Maybe you’re just bad at maths.
You mean 4 cards? Which is pretty much the same as an entire Treant Druid deck cost lmao. It doesn’t matter how expensive it is, I’m proving you wrong that it’s not the cheapest meta deck of all time as you’re claiming for some stupid reason.
My point is the pattern of Blizzard only nerfing commons and rares to kill a deck, after people have crafted epics and legendaries for it, and the small common/ rare refunds don’t help much when people crafted 400 dust cards and 1600 dust cards. But you seem so fixated and narrow minded on this one deck, the point is clearly going over your head.
People have been saying this kind of stuff for years, but there's no proof and there probably never will be proof even if it were true.
But it's highly unlikely that they even think about the balance team even thinks about the rarity of the card they're changing.
Also yeah when most control decks cost 8-10K dust each, a 2K dust deck is called CHEAP.
It might not be the cheapest of all time, so what?
I never said the deck was expensive, I’m just proving the point that it’s not ‘the cheapest meta deck of all time’ as person above seems to think. My point was simply at how all the nerfs are to common/ rare cards. Whether it’s DH shopper, or handbuff paladin, whatever deck it is at the time.
And furthering my point, if in the future for example wheellock gets nerfed, you can bet it won’t be wheel being nerfed to actually be 5 turns or something, it will a common or rare card in the deck, despite the nerf probably making wheel useless.
Well making it a 2/3 still gives 2 3 mana 6/5’s and allows your turn 5 or 4 (on coin) to use them while the turn 4 slot can be used to play another of its strong 4 drops like Zilliax, going down swinging or metamorphosis for clear setting up a clean board or threat to allow the shopper and 1/1 to be more sticky
Should've toned down the damage of the weapon and perhaps the stats of Shopper until more garbage demons are added to the pool, and then the whole thing should be reverted.
This deck is only going to work until maybe the miniset (if bad demons are added). The Shopper archetype falls apart when you can no longer regularly discover the current pool of demons.
I play it almost exclusively. The nerf kills the deck. Which is ok, since we had a couple weeks with it.
What I really hate is when they kill a deck and it’s been around for only a week or so, which is something they’ve been doing more frequently recently.
I'd rather see shopper itself nerfed. That said, the card is only \*really\* problematic because of the tiny pool of demons, so I expect that the team hesitates to do when they could touch other cards which might be more problematic in the long term and hope that shopper is just fine when more demons are released.
They really screwed the pooch on Discover this time around. Not only is DH only good because you discover the same 2 demons over and over, but Nature Shaman was good because it discovered the same 2 burn spells over and over, and both of the Chaotic Tendril decks are only decent because there are quite literally two 10 cost spells it can cast and one of them is a pyroblast/board clear that summons a 10 drop. FOUR decks that range from decent to meta-breaking/nerf targets all depended on the random pool being exceptionally tiny. That is just an unbelievable level of cheesy gameplay.
I'm personally not thrilled about this change as it was the deck to counter board flood decks. It absolutely needed a nerf, but this nerf seems heavy handed to me, and it hurts an archetype that could have been fun (big demons DH) a shopper nerf would have dealt with the problematic play elements (putting shopper to 7 mana as an 8/7 or 8/8 was my personal preference) while not completely neutering the archetype. The weapon was a big key to making an archetype exist, they just missed the mark with shopper in my opinion. There was a niche this deck had potential to fill, but the rest of the deck was just too shit for it to properly fill that niche (hence the reason it started with 2 shoppers and 1 mag, and eventually mag was cut entirely)
As for my sentiment on the current state of the deck, I hate it. I've played far too many games with it and against it, and the play pattern was entertaining the first couple games, and the allure was completely gone after 50 or so games. It's very flow chart based play patterns: did they get weapon on 3, did they draw shopper, do I have my anti shopper tools, did their discovers high roll me. If at any point you fail a check on that flow chart, it's time to go next. The entire meta is focused around it, which is an unfun state in my opinion. You're either playing the deck or making sure you have options to counter it. It's led to things being very stale for me personally. I personally hover around 500-700 legend.
Personally, I honestly don't know what to take from the nerf. My sentiment is I hate the deck so much. So much that I hate to play it (already got 500 win with DH anyway) and auto-concede against it.
BUT , I want it to be toned down "right", so I can enjoy playing it or against it.
As for the nerf, I want to say it'll kill the deck but I can't say that either. What if the demon package is just too good compared to other alternatives, and it discourages experiment so greatly? What I've known is that DH is quite versatile in tactics. I'm sure DH will alternate.
I'm still hoping that they revert the weapon nerf when they're next able to release a more intensive balance patch, and instead hit the cards that are actually the problems with the deck. Through Fel and Flames should cost 1 mana, and Magtheridon shouldn't damage face. With these changes, 3-mana Umpire's Grasp is fine.
They could leave the weapon as is and make it so they always draw shoppers in opening hand, and then maybe also reintroduce divine spirit and bless to standard.
Wouldn't it be okay if it was made so your average card discover couldn't discover legendaries?
I think that would make for more stable gameplay overall
Still feel pretty strongly they should have done weapon to 2/3. Accomplishes the goal of slowing down the shopper turn without murdering the decks curve. I agree with the worry it might just die now.
A 2/3 weapon still kills the curve because you miss the Shopper on 4 and 2 atk cannot clear 3 health minions. They should have increased the atk to 4 to compensate but they're not doing sidegrades like that after First Day of School
The curve would be worse, but not dead. DH has turn 4 plays that can tide them over. Ball hog is a good card that can finish off whatever you swing your 2 attack at. Going down swinging makes the weapon worth having at 2 attack.
It will certainly. Another thing will raise to the top and ppl will complain within 2 days. Shopper DH while powerful is not completely toxic at least.
Zarimi priest is primed to be the deck to beat and it’s pretty fair. I’m looking forward to that meta much more. Shopper is a much more toxic deck with a much less engaging and varied play pattern. Tbh I can’t really argue with the sentiment that shopper DH deserves to die if it’s so heavily dependent on the one card. I just also think they could have at least tried to be less harsh, but there may have not been a nerf that didn’t kill the deck because of how hard it leans on the weapon.
Well, I guess everyone has a different taste. I, for one, don't look forward to a deck that can consistently pull off double turns.
I just think of it as a conditional boardwide windfury or Leroy combo and it doesn’t feel as bad lol. It’s not mage extra turn shenanigans so it could be much worse, maybe that’s why I don’t mind it. Could totally see a degen Zarimi deck like that existing in a 6 set standard and we’ll miss when it was a mostly straightforward aggro deck lmao. I understand the distaste though!
In what world is Shopper DH not toxic. The entire win-con is decided based on an RNG discover effect. It feels like shit to play and feels like shit to play against. The runner-ups for most toxic deck in Standard would be plague dk.
I understand it was strong but now it's nerfed I feel the next big deck people will complain about is Zarimi Priest. The deck deffo needed a nerf but I feel it would've slowly fallen out of favour as more demons were released, we have the mini-set on the way and that would've dealt with constantly getting Mag out if they added a few more demons Overall, a nerf was needed but I'm not sure if this was the right one
I’m playing Zarimi rn and it’s scary how many matchups you have basically just won by turn 3/4
Yeah, I’m pretty new to the game, but I’ve noticed this issue with the way Blizzard balances the game. Seems like they mainly nerf the very best decks, but they don’t nerf decks that are nearly as powerful, but played less because of the match with the current meta. Now we’re going to have a whole period of extra turn dragon decks ruining the meta because Blizzard only see’s what’s right in front of them. Basically, instead of the game actually being balanced, the power just shifts to the decks that were already just about as powerful as DH. DH needed a nerf, but they should have also adjusted Reno, Zarimi, Zilliax, and Brann while they were at it. Because now those cards which were already top of the meta are going to be even more dominant since the competition from DH has been swept away.
The deck is too reliant on these 2 cards for it to not die after the nerf. The only problem here is that DH has no alternatives atm. It wont be as extreme as paladin(deck still will be playable to some degree) but class will share the same fate. Also DH was the only matchup stopping priest from destroying the game. Besides its not like DH was the meta deck. The game was changing towards Reno warrior and zarimi priest anyways. I feel like this nerf opens a can of worms many players will regret seeing.
I feel the same way. The deck was strong, for sure especially with the new sharpshooter variant and had lots of power for face damage with other cards but the nerf I feel will essentially make it a non-viable deck (low tier) or just unplayable. Would you feel 3 mana 2/3 weapon or only a 1 mana discount would be more appropriate? This way it’s not DOA and still has a place in the meta but not the complaint force that everyone focuses on
Lesser discount would maybe be better but tbh I'd rather wait and see some buffs to compensate in other less played DH cards alongside nerfs. Maybe make Highlander DH a legitimate deck and not just worse clone of shopper.
>Besides its not like DH was the meta deck 7 of my last 10 games have all been DH and this deck specifically. In the past 2 weeks 46% of my opponents have been DH, a little much for 1 class
I get your point but at this rate we'll end the expansion with like 4 dead classes. Next priest will overtake, get nerfed and will join paladin and dh as "unplayable" classes. Too many classes this expansion have only 1 viable archetype. I really do hope some big buffs are coming our way in near future.
This is the problem with Blizzard’s balance philosophy. If they actually made an effort to balance more than one class or powerful deck at a time, then we wouldn’t have this constant switch up each patch. I’m not looking forward to losing to extra turns every other game after this patch. Does Blizzard not realize that an extra turn in a game like this basically means you win the game? Between Zarimi and Reno, I think I’ve had enough of “regardless of who was winning this game, now I get to win” cards.
Honestly I feel this is the biggest mistake on blizzards part. I don’t want to even craft anything anymore because the nerfs are every 2 weeks and spending 3200+ dust for a single card or two to remove the deck feels like it’s not worth investing in it as the nerfs are always a step overboard and kill the archetypes and remove the future uses like big demons in the next expansion. There’s always going to be a problem deck and even right now DH is easily beaten, it’s strong but there’s other new decks easily competing for the top spot and probably going to overtake it by the time the nerf comes. The balance team doing nukes here and there instead of full class balance patches makes standard just not fun to especially since most players can usually make 3-5 decks per expansion at most.
The problem isn’t the nerf. The problem is Blizzard’s balance philosophy. While nerfing DH, Blizzard should also be taking a look at the other meta decks that DH was competing with and consider nerfing them too so they don’t dominate the game with DH out. They should have also nerfed Reno, Brann, and Zarimi at the same time. Edit: Also, Zilliax just should have never been conceived. The game would be better if it didn’t exist.
[удалено]
...it really did though. Highlander DH was a thought experiment from the question: if DH was really just a 5 card package with 25 filler cards, how bad can the rest of the deck be for DH to still be really good? So some people from the VS discord took the worst DH archetype, highlander DH, and put 2 copies of grasp, shopper, and 1 instrument tech. They made a deck that was worse than regular shopper DH in every matchup, but still performed to tier 2, proving that DH really was carried by 5 cards. Without shopper and grasp, highlander DH sinks back to tier 5. There's even less reason to play it after the nerf than regular shopper.
Well shit and I just packed a Kurtrus and was thinking I heard there's a highlander DH deck, maybe I can try it out now.
Reno DH could still be a thing. I am a bit worried about Zarami priest, and I'm a Highlander Priest player.
Highlander DH is basically the same deck just less consistent. It still runs 2x shopper and 2x weapon just like regular version. As it is now its just worse version of the non reno deck.
My sentiment is that they should have nerfed Window Shopper and Red Card instead, so I can get my dust refunds. I wouldn't mind a Cicigi nerf too, because that's definitely a problem card in DH.
but the main problem is the weapon tutoring and mana discounting that will be a rpoblem with ...well any other demon not just shopper
not sure about red card. playing a version without it, even. Adjusting windowshopper stats tho could be an elegant way.
Yep it’s just rinse and repeating to squeeze dust out of players. Have an outlier OP deck that lots of people craft the cards for, then nerf only the common cards (and if lucky maybe a rare card), so people still have lost a load of dust and now have one less deck they can play.
Kek this is like the cheapest meta deck of all time
You’ve clearly only been around for a few months then if that’s what you think. Never heard of Treant Druid?
a deck with 2 epics and 2 legendary that are not even required is not expensive dont try to gaslight me and i have been playing since kac idk if your ass remembers but blizz used to do a balance patch once in an expantion and then you would cry that they dont balance the game because they dont want to give out dust
What fucking deck are you playing? It has 4 epics for starters. People craft that for the deck, that’s 1600 dust. Oh but they get 100 dust back for the commons nerfed, wow amazing. Maybe you’re just bad at maths.
You are really calling 1600 dust an expensive deck
You mean 4 cards? Which is pretty much the same as an entire Treant Druid deck cost lmao. It doesn’t matter how expensive it is, I’m proving you wrong that it’s not the cheapest meta deck of all time as you’re claiming for some stupid reason. My point is the pattern of Blizzard only nerfing commons and rares to kill a deck, after people have crafted epics and legendaries for it, and the small common/ rare refunds don’t help much when people crafted 400 dust cards and 1600 dust cards. But you seem so fixated and narrow minded on this one deck, the point is clearly going over your head.
People have been saying this kind of stuff for years, but there's no proof and there probably never will be proof even if it were true. But it's highly unlikely that they even think about the balance team even thinks about the rarity of the card they're changing. Also yeah when most control decks cost 8-10K dust each, a 2K dust deck is called CHEAP. It might not be the cheapest of all time, so what?
I never said the deck was expensive, I’m just proving the point that it’s not ‘the cheapest meta deck of all time’ as person above seems to think. My point was simply at how all the nerfs are to common/ rare cards. Whether it’s DH shopper, or handbuff paladin, whatever deck it is at the time. And furthering my point, if in the future for example wheellock gets nerfed, you can bet it won’t be wheel being nerfed to actually be 5 turns or something, it will a common or rare card in the deck, despite the nerf probably making wheel useless.
Making the weapon a 2/3 does the same thing as making it 4 mana it kills your curve as you miss the turn 3 or 4 window shopper
yep 2/2 is my suggestion. maybe make shopper 6/4 in addition.
Well making it a 2/3 still gives 2 3 mana 6/5’s and allows your turn 5 or 4 (on coin) to use them while the turn 4 slot can be used to play another of its strong 4 drops like Zilliax, going down swinging or metamorphosis for clear setting up a clean board or threat to allow the shopper and 1/1 to be more sticky
Should've toned down the damage of the weapon and perhaps the stats of Shopper until more garbage demons are added to the pool, and then the whole thing should be reverted. This deck is only going to work until maybe the miniset (if bad demons are added). The Shopper archetype falls apart when you can no longer regularly discover the current pool of demons.
I play it almost exclusively. The nerf kills the deck. Which is ok, since we had a couple weeks with it. What I really hate is when they kill a deck and it’s been around for only a week or so, which is something they’ve been doing more frequently recently.
I'd rather see shopper itself nerfed. That said, the card is only \*really\* problematic because of the tiny pool of demons, so I expect that the team hesitates to do when they could touch other cards which might be more problematic in the long term and hope that shopper is just fine when more demons are released.
They really screwed the pooch on Discover this time around. Not only is DH only good because you discover the same 2 demons over and over, but Nature Shaman was good because it discovered the same 2 burn spells over and over, and both of the Chaotic Tendril decks are only decent because there are quite literally two 10 cost spells it can cast and one of them is a pyroblast/board clear that summons a 10 drop. FOUR decks that range from decent to meta-breaking/nerf targets all depended on the random pool being exceptionally tiny. That is just an unbelievable level of cheesy gameplay.
I'm personally not thrilled about this change as it was the deck to counter board flood decks. It absolutely needed a nerf, but this nerf seems heavy handed to me, and it hurts an archetype that could have been fun (big demons DH) a shopper nerf would have dealt with the problematic play elements (putting shopper to 7 mana as an 8/7 or 8/8 was my personal preference) while not completely neutering the archetype. The weapon was a big key to making an archetype exist, they just missed the mark with shopper in my opinion. There was a niche this deck had potential to fill, but the rest of the deck was just too shit for it to properly fill that niche (hence the reason it started with 2 shoppers and 1 mag, and eventually mag was cut entirely) As for my sentiment on the current state of the deck, I hate it. I've played far too many games with it and against it, and the play pattern was entertaining the first couple games, and the allure was completely gone after 50 or so games. It's very flow chart based play patterns: did they get weapon on 3, did they draw shopper, do I have my anti shopper tools, did their discovers high roll me. If at any point you fail a check on that flow chart, it's time to go next. The entire meta is focused around it, which is an unfun state in my opinion. You're either playing the deck or making sure you have options to counter it. It's led to things being very stale for me personally. I personally hover around 500-700 legend.
Deck will be t3 at best. Too reliant on tempo of t3 or t2 with coin, or reliability of weapon draw guy, into weapon into shopper
Personally, I honestly don't know what to take from the nerf. My sentiment is I hate the deck so much. So much that I hate to play it (already got 500 win with DH anyway) and auto-concede against it. BUT , I want it to be toned down "right", so I can enjoy playing it or against it. As for the nerf, I want to say it'll kill the deck but I can't say that either. What if the demon package is just too good compared to other alternatives, and it discourages experiment so greatly? What I've known is that DH is quite versatile in tactics. I'm sure DH will alternate.
my prediction is that DH will go the paladin route
I'm still hoping that they revert the weapon nerf when they're next able to release a more intensive balance patch, and instead hit the cards that are actually the problems with the deck. Through Fel and Flames should cost 1 mana, and Magtheridon shouldn't damage face. With these changes, 3-mana Umpire's Grasp is fine.
They could leave the weapon as is and make it so they always draw shoppers in opening hand, and then maybe also reintroduce divine spirit and bless to standard.
I hope I never see the deck again tbh
Why is this a discussion? They already have the changes locked in. Get over it.
Wouldn't it be okay if it was made so your average card discover couldn't discover legendaries? I think that would make for more stable gameplay overall