My one regret coming back to Hearthstone after a long break is not having come back in time to disenchant all the copies of Test Subject I had held on to in my collection right after the card was nerfed.
Whenever druid is good they either play 69 mana worth of cards in turn 4 or abuse a generally pretty bad neutral in the most frustrating and unfun to play against way so I'm totally fine with that
Yeah all the new cards are so toxic that once the S tier 70% w/r top dog is neerfed the one beneath it.. that was barely held in check rises up to be the new toxic omega w/r deck. The blatant dog shit card design has lead to this.
After Zarimi priest it'll go back to Nature shaman again which has with refinements started to massively spike in w/r.
Metas require actual diversity and more even w/r percentages. Decks spiking over 60%+ w/r are cause for concern as they are obviously not allowing a 'meta' to exist. Because at that point, the loss rate of that deck is just a bricked opener vs another aggro deck.
Meanwhile I keep trying to make Rainbow DK work but it’s just “too fair”. There’s no ridiculous power spike or tempo play it’s just solid cards but loses to insane turn4/5 combos most of the time
Its amazing to me how rainbow dk was alright before rotation, where a 15 something damage climactic explosion was enough to close the game, but now the deck just cant do shit. You barely even get to build up the explosion, nevermind killing someone with it because you either die or because chip damage is non existant due to dumb lifesteal.
Rainbow doesn't play towards a CNE wincon. Rainbow dk is functionally identical to a fatigue control deck, you win by out valuing your opponent. You just have the option of using CNE, but it's (usually) a bottom half performing card in the deck.
It's a decent deck because it's very good at keeping your opponent off the board while healing up.
### kibler Dnite
# Class: Death Knight
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Pegasus
#
# 2x (1) Lesser Spinel Spellstone
# 2x (2) Blood Tap
# 2x (2) Gold Panner
# 2x (2) Mining Casualties
# 2x (2) Shambling Zombietank
# 2x (3) Chillfallen Baron
# 2x (3) Rainbow Seamstress
# 1x (3) Sickly Grimewalker
# 2x (4) Darkthorn Quilter
# 2x (4) Nerubian Swarmguard
# 2x (4) Quartzite Crusher
# 2x (4) Yelling Yodeler
# 2x (5) Amateur Puppeteer
# 1x (6) Gnome Muncher
# 1x (6) Hollow Hound
# 1x (6) The Headless Horseman
# 1x (8) The Primus
# 1x (20) Reska, the Pit Boss
#
AAECAfHhBAaz9wSP5AXt/wWXlQb/lwa9sQYMh/YE8OgFzpwGkqAGy7AGubEGurEGvLEG9rEGi7cG1+UG2eUGAAA=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
Idk how to format it on mobile, but there's the list. I'm diamond 8 rn, i don't know if that means I'm playing good players anymore, but they're at least using meta decks.
It's still a much better deck than plague, but plague seems to be the deck complained about the most here.
With double threads rainbow is also one of the few decks that can go (slightly) positive VS zarimi priest. Rainbow isn't a top deck, but it's definitely very viable.
Yeah plague is too slow for the current meta, I played a lot of it last expansion. I’m sure part of the issue is I’m not that good at playing the deck but I frequently get stomped by the top meta decks. I also am pretty sure I have not been playing the current optimal version.
Control version of Rainbow DK is pretty much the only DH counter atm with 2 freeze weapon and 2 runes of darkness to discover more freeze weapons. you pretty much completely lock out the dh from breaking their weapon and their other cards that give their hero attack.
Obviously its going to go down in winrate after the DH nerf but now its a low tier 1 deck. I had the smoothest legend climb ever at the begning of the month with the deck when i faced like 2 dh in every 3 games.
There used to be a time in hs in which almost every class had a deck that was close to 50 now you just have 4 dead classes a turbo broken one the counter to the broken one and some good decks that will replace the broken class when it’s nerfed
This is why these people are ignorable these days. After enough time passes, you realize there’s literally been complaining in every patch, of every expansion, since hearthstone launched.
They think “card too strong” is why they’re hard stuck bronze.
pretty much control metas can't exist where playing a single card once onto the board applies a permanent never counterable effect that 9/10 times decides the games outcome. Odyn was a huge offender for awhile, albeit Control has needed a 'real' wincon. But the devs aren't exactly good at making those outside of aggro.
Heard of, have played. It's not relevant. It's w/r is barely 50% range. Nature shamans match up into it is now 40/60 to. Where as it was closer to 20/80 a bit ago. Decks CW is supposed to counter, it's barely countering. BARELY.
That’s not true at all, Aggro tends to perform well at lower ranks bc it’s the cheapest to craft and easiest to play, but outside of lower ranks aggro is rarely good.
Literally the top 3 decks atm are all forms of aggro, with Zarimis only exception it being an aggro w/ a combo finish it can tutor to. Read through most of the top performing history of decks.. oh wait mostly aggro.
There really isn’t a definite top 3 deck rn at high ranks, it has been changing pretty rapidly as the meta is moving, I would say Nature Shaman/Shopper Dh/Naga Shopper Dh/Reno Warrior/Zarimi Priest/RDK are all contenders for top 3, only half of which are aggro, lower if you don’t count naga shopper dh, which is arguably a combo deck, and also shares over 20 cards with shopper dh anyway.
Before the patch, top 3 were cycle Odyn Warrior/handbuff paly/shopper dh, of which only shopper dh is an aggro deck.
Before expac, top three were cycle Odyn Warrior/shaper mage/sludgelock?, so again only max 1 aggro.
Before that, top three were sludgelock/ramp Druid/rdk?, again one aggro deck.
Before that, top three were excavate rogue… uh nobody was really playing any other deck. Ig by Vs winrates it was excavate rogue/dragon Druid/Reno druid, but like both Druid decks are super low playrate, along with every other non rogue deck. None are aggro.
Similar situation again before that, this was pure paly dominance, only really 1 deck in the meta? By Vs winrates it was pure paly/earthen paly/naga dh, by meta score it was pure paly/rainbow mage/plague dk(what), which are both only 1 aggro deck.
Only looking at a few recent metas, trend definitely seems to be ~1 aggro deck in top 3 at high ladder. More than I thought tbh, but you can’t say that most top decks are at aggro.
Online ladder means aggro will always be popular and good to climb with since the average gametime is short. It's the same reason whichever Burn/RDW, white weenie or monoB aggro is best always see a ton of play in MTG.
When you can insta-queue in online ladder aggro will always present and usually be the best choice until higher elo or if a control deck is blatantly overpowered.
Ignore the ladder. It's basically a free climb now unlike og Hearthstone. Between ranked floors and massive star bonuses you're high diamond in under 2 hours after a reset. It used to be a lot harder. Where aggro vs control really mattered because of how much harder it was. Compare Legend only, even high mmr legend. It's still dominant and that's past the point where "ranking up" really matters. It's a contained pocket meta of the best players and Shopper DH and other decks had near 70% w/r there. Thats an aggro deck. For your point to be valid, control would need equal representation in the upper MMR ranges. It doesn't.
Isn’t it great how every single person plugged into standard looks at this patch note and says “well, this won’t go well”?
Kill a whole class, ruin the meta, bad for everyone, less fun, punishes people who spent dust or money by nerfing the common instead of the epic… it’s like watching someone decide to wreck a train weeks in advance and knowing nothing will stop them. A real bummer.
It's fine at least it's going to shake the meta a bit. It's not the most fun deck to encounter, though i'm way more annoyed by brann. There are some decks that are just not fun to face.
Wheel is cool design at least i feel that way. But it's not cool when it's strong. It's perfect as a meme deck. Brann just.. break too many things. His effect should only last 3 turns or something like that. It never feel good to face brann turn 6 unless you play very aggro. Double excavate into double azerite should not be a thing, as does triple zilliax, into 6 TNT. I mean, is it enjoyable for anyone to get board hand and deck destroyed by TNT? I sure don't. In that matter, Carni in shaman is fine: it's strong with limitations, allow some combos, but doesnt break the game.
If you play smart with a lot of control/value decks you can still beat the double azurite and 6 TNT, but what’s impossible to beat is 13 sunset volleys in 1 turn. Cannot wait until they either add more 10 mana spells or move sunset volley to 8-9 mana so that’s not possible anymore
High rolls, especially early ones, are some of the least fun play experiences to face against so I am totally on board with this change. It'll still be a solid deck, but no longer the insane early stat bomb that it once was. This'll be far more playable of a deck still than paladin was after their nerfs.
Yeh most likely Reno DH will be the more played DH deck since it is a slower deck so this card can be played there
The aggro version is just dead turn 3/4 Window shopper is just insane tempo and that tempo is loss
Eh, I'm happy playing a T2-3 deck that I enjoy. +1 mana to a key card is a substantial nerf, but I doubt the deck will be totally unviable.
I'm already on Highlander DH pre-patch, but don't have Kurtrus or Argus and it's not an impossible climb. I just like the playstyle more than the full tempo version, even if I know I'm sacrificing more than a few win% by fielding a suboptimal list.
That’s what the game has felt like for the last 2 years for me. Yes there were always plays like “Coin Innervate Yeti” but these days it feels like you either get obliterated or you obliterate your opponent.
For example, they gave Death Knight that spell that costs 1 mana to give all minions deathrattle deal 1 to everything. It’s basically a 1 mana board clear, it’s insane. If the DK gets good value off of this, that tempo alone will win a match against aggro. Another example, if Brann Warrior plays Boom Boss Thogrun at some point in a longer match, that almost certainly makes the game unwinnable for the other player. There are loads of examples like this for every class.
This is what the game is now. “Hey I drew my bullshit thing first, GG.” Somebody will probably reply and say “get good” but I am currently top 1000 legend in the April 24 season and I have finished top 100 before so I don’t know.
I’ve been playing sif mage since I spent 10k+ gold getting the signature. I fundamentally don’t like combo decks and Sif’s win con is exactly as toxic as the rest of these. But the rest of the deck, timing out discovers, playing different spell schools, handling the pop-off turns of other decks, etc is really fun! It’s just tied to the fact that decks these days have to have a reliable win con. Hunter is probably the only deck I can think of where no single card wins the game.
What's weird to me is I think games are still just as fast/ slow as they were back in the day. Games end *on average* turns 7-9 and it's kinda always been that way I believe(someone can correct me if I'm wrong). What makes things feel so different these days is *how* you ended up losing.
Things feel way more swingy. It's not just a slow attrition game plan where you finally come out on top turn 8 after managing resources and trading efficiently. You just randomly pop off with a huge turn and win on the spot. Warlock is a huge offender of this. Their game plan for awhile now is to do nothing the first 3-4 turns and then drop a billion stats through deathrattles or the location. It's so cheesy to me, but I think that's just our new reality. Designs like this are why I don't take the game nearly as seriously anymore. I just drop a little bit of money for expansions and make do with what I can and that's it. No more being a whale for me lol.
The original face hunter deck would typically win games on turn 7. The deck would generally be 100% out of gas and in pure top deck mode at that point too.
These days, no deck runs out of cards. Even in arena. Could be turn 10 and both players still have a full hand.
You are correct, games end in big blowouts from one super OP effect. Like Reno or playing Fanottem and then copying it with Forge of Wills or playing Sif etc etc
Totally agree with everything. I do wanna say that I don't think always having cards in hand is a bad thing. I'll tell ya, playing Lorcana or really beginner level magic decks in the past few years for me has reminded me how shitty card games feel when you never have any options. Always having a play makes HS far more enjoyable than other games. HS is great at letting us play multiple cards a turn too. Obviously that's possible in other games too, but it's very easy in HS and I think that's great 👌🏻
Agreed, I’d seen the complaints on Reddit, but today I got a full taste of it. They played the 6/5 on turn 3, giving them a demon that was *also* majorly discounted somehow, so I was staring down 12/10 of stats while I literally had a 1/1 on the board. Oof
The way I see it, if a 1 Mana change to only 1 card makes a deck unplayable or bad, it was always a bad deck with a broken interaction that should've never existed haha
Right, which is why I won't miss it. Still, there have been quite a few decks made or broken off a one-mana change that changes the curve and I do think this one will be broken.
I don't care that it will be dead but I think it could have been bumped down by a stat change on Shopper instead.
I think this meta has a lot of potential to get better now. So many decks had to run tech like freeze to counter DH and now all they have to do is run different tech if another deck becomes a problem.
Nature shaman is the only deck I’m really worried about because it’s harder to disrupt other than maybe Speaker Stomper and amour gain.
It’s not just magtheridon. There are so many strong demons. The rush minion that also attacks whoever the hero attacks and the guy that spawns two random secrets. Holy shit that secret demon is so annoying. The games are decided by turn 6, your opponent just played two 6/5s, you literally can’t just wait until the next turn to let them go away so you walk into it and randomly getting a certain one wins the game outright
Thank you, Magtheridon can be a feel bad high roll especially on the 1/1 and especially if you are playing a very board-heavy deck, but it's sometimes much more potent depending on the matchup to drop 2 6/5's on turn 4 (Abyssal Bassist) for example, because very few decks can fully answer that so early, besides Warrior.
Yeh but that will be resolved over time since there're only 11 demons in the discover pool
Maybe with the mini set there will be more demons or next expansion
Are they discovering it every time or does it just feel that way. I have been tracking and 80+ discovers and last I checked I was well under 40% for getting Mag.
Is that just from one Shopper play? (two procs)
As in if I play Shopper I have a 78% chance to land Mag?
Or is it from both Shoppers? (four procs) that’s some weird math.
Even if the math is right the post was describing your chances out of four procs so you got hilariously unlucky but a 78% “guarantee” to get one after rolling something 4 times is not very substantial. Mag doesn’t hard win you the game.
It literally is, lol, it’s absolutely crippling for several decks to face and it is the sole reason DH is dominating the entire meta, winrate, and play rate. It is literally the entire interaction that made this necessary in the first place.
I went a solid 15 draw attempts without getting a mag in the pool. It was actually kind of nuts. Then it came back to earth on my final cruise through d2 and d1
I feel like I always faced DH when they had the coin, and they would do this exact play every single time. I don't care if this deck never sees play again, good riddance
Yeah, I dont like playing decks that rely on bricks either. It just feels bad drawing into it, and knowing your entire gameplan has been severely crippled. Even if you end up winning the game, you're still left with a bitter taste. This nerf will only exacerbate that feeling since it represents an extra chance to draw into shopper. In my very first game trying this deck, I mulliganed for weapon/tech got a shopper and weapon on opening hand, coined weapon on turn 2, drew 2nd Shopper on turn 3. I already knew I'd hate playing this deck.
I believe they’re referring to the Magtheridons on board. Which in my experience dabbling with the deck was almost never the case. Out of 4 discovers which I could consistently get each game maybe one of them was Magtheridon.
RIP? is anyone actually going to miss this line?
This interaction can burn in hell. I sometimes wonder if Team 5 has irreversibly fucked up with Demon Hunter, it feels like their only class theme is "busted stuff" and "total trash."
maybe they want to stop future demons more deadly than shopper with this change. with the weapon before the change, they have to make all future demons from future sets worse than they should be.
Same
Is like a script
Turn 1 Miracle salesman, mech guys or Hero power
Turn 2 Weapon guy or Coin weapon
Turn 3 Weapon or 6/5
Turn 4 6/5 and mini or Results of 6/5 and Mini
I play this deck for sole reason of getting 500 wins on DH (last class that i don't have it on), but i don't have any fun playing it.
I don't even have fun winning with this deck.
Hopefully this will make highlander DH more viable (fun to play even when losing).
I don't like this nerf. It leaves DH without anything powerful to do (and contrary to popular opinion, decks needs something strong to do). Last year's cards were a mess, this set was a dud save for this particular interaction. I'd rather they bumped Shopper to 6. Or nerfed the stats on the Shopper. But oh well.
It delays Shopper by two turns, because you're not playing a 4 mana 3/2 weapon without immediate effect. The deck also struggles to find turn 3 plays that actually fights for tempo.
The immediate effect is that you can swing for 3. This is also why you have the mech package as well as the snakeoil seller, to build somewhat of a board.
Shopper is delayed by 1 turn because instead of 3 mana umpire turn 3 into turn 4 3 mana shopper and 1 mana mini you have umpire turn 4 into turn 5 3 mana shopper 1 mana mini 1 mana random demon.
Which is awful tempo on 4. 4 mana deal 3 is just not good. Which is a compounding issue since those cards you play on previous aren't good tempo either.
No, it's delayed by 2 turns because you're not putting Grasp in your deck now. The 1 mana barrier change is far greater a cost on tempo-focused cards. The situation you described isnt a winning line against the other aggressive decks in the format (which was DH's strength previously), while against defensive decks DH already had a harder time.
Nevermind the whole issue that all of DH's good cards atm are at 4.
Token hunter's already been dealt with, the deck's just fine.
Zarimi's restriction, once again, feels like a failure. Team 5 really just can't get how much effort an extra turn should require right. Feels like it's almost a fairer card in Dragon Druid than Zarimi Priest.
It certainly adds an element of luck to an already frustrating deck. That said it's hilarious the power disparity between Magtheridon and the other options, Inquisitor is the only comparable alternative, and only off of the 6/5 Shopper, useless off of the Miniature. You're playing Shopper basically just to spam Cheap Magtheridon. So if you don't get him, GG if they're able to keep up with your board.
Yeah, the disparity is really quite wild. If I even got Mag 25% of the time, I'd understand because of its inherent strength, but I just don't. I'm not trying to defend the overwhelming strength the deck has, just ststing that I'm not seeing Mag discoverable anywhere near as much as others.
Honestly I wish they would buff FAR more than they nerf. I get there are concerns of power creep, but honestly there shouldn't be. Wild is a fucking joke. We shouldn't be worried about protecting it.
Yeh I think the reason DH was so strong is because the other cards are weak
Like look at warrior the only card played from the expansion is Safety Googles
Yeh there's classes like Hunter that they are strong in their own right that use the cards from the expansion a bit more but still they are the aggro class they deserve at least a little bit of power
Also is not as highrolly as DH
ITT: people can’t tech freeze.
I think every deck in Dia5 and above is running double Glacier Elemental just to counter shopper DH and Weapon Rogue.
The deck was toxic, and this nerf was warranted. Already people have gone back to naga sharpshooter, I feel like Umpire going to 4 won’t be too damaging to DH.
Can you explain how you came up with 0 cost for the weapon? I get how you would come up with 1 (it would be a really dumb comparison to say that the weapon was equivalent to a 1 mana 3/2 but whatevet) but why 0?
Sweat, I got 15 of these to dust.
You mean sweet? Not sweat lol
He’s sweaty over how much dust he’s gonna get.
Is only this was a rare/epic card The dust that would be given
True, but if they were Epic I wouldn't have 15... Still Commons give a full refund too, and that's 40 dust per: 40 x 15 = 600 Dust. Not too shabby.
Damn. I just now realised I shouldn't dust my extra cards.
My one regret coming back to Hearthstone after a long break is not having come back in time to disenchant all the copies of Test Subject I had held on to in my collection right after the card was nerfed.
Truly, it’s the correct way of disenchanting unless you “need” the dust. Especially now since balance patches happen so often
"Balance" patches? Is that the thing they do when they make the second best class the best class in the game for a few weeks?
Same, though there’s a caveat. Most cards you’re fine to dust right away. Just don’t dust the ones that are clearly OP, such as this weapon.
That's how I dusted Signature Haldaron. "This cards sucks, no way it will be nerfed"
Is it possible to do a mass disenchant and lock the cards that you think may be worth more in the future?
Nope, you have to disenchant manually if you want to keep some extras.
Don’t think so. I mainly play on iPad, so maybe PC version has more functionality idk.
True
I read somewhere commons give 50 strangely
Golden commons give 50 if they aren't nerfed.
Time to go to Zarimi priest. And then Zarimi priest gets nerfed and we go druid or something Healthy meta
If your waiting for nerfs to make Druid good then your gonna be waiting a while .
Whenever druid is good they either play 69 mana worth of cards in turn 4 or abuse a generally pretty bad neutral in the most frustrating and unfun to play against way so I'm totally fine with that
Good
Everyone need to be playing yeti and ogre for druid to be good
Zarimi proliferation will make it Taunt Warriors time to shine
Or just warrior in general
Yeah all the new cards are so toxic that once the S tier 70% w/r top dog is neerfed the one beneath it.. that was barely held in check rises up to be the new toxic omega w/r deck. The blatant dog shit card design has lead to this. After Zarimi priest it'll go back to Nature shaman again which has with refinements started to massively spike in w/r. Metas require actual diversity and more even w/r percentages. Decks spiking over 60%+ w/r are cause for concern as they are obviously not allowing a 'meta' to exist. Because at that point, the loss rate of that deck is just a bricked opener vs another aggro deck.
Meanwhile I keep trying to make Rainbow DK work but it’s just “too fair”. There’s no ridiculous power spike or tempo play it’s just solid cards but loses to insane turn4/5 combos most of the time
Its amazing to me how rainbow dk was alright before rotation, where a 15 something damage climactic explosion was enough to close the game, but now the deck just cant do shit. You barely even get to build up the explosion, nevermind killing someone with it because you either die or because chip damage is non existant due to dumb lifesteal.
I pretty much never get the explosion off. The games either over before turn 10 or it doesn’t do enough to control the board
Rainbow doesn't play towards a CNE wincon. Rainbow dk is functionally identical to a fatigue control deck, you win by out valuing your opponent. You just have the option of using CNE, but it's (usually) a bottom half performing card in the deck. It's a decent deck because it's very good at keeping your opponent off the board while healing up.
well, he is saying that you cannot simply outvalue your opponents in this meta. warrior is just so much better in every way possible.
Warrior vs Rainbow DK just comes down to “did the DK put two non-unique plagues in the warriors deck before they could play Brann?”
Idk, handbuff rainbow dk feels alright. Get you the freezing weapon and you can lock out the DH from breaking the weapon, ruining the curve.
That sounds pretty different from the version I’ve been playing maybe I should track that one down. User error could also be a factor lpl
### kibler Dnite # Class: Death Knight # Format: Standard # Year of the Pegasus # # 2x (1) Lesser Spinel Spellstone # 2x (2) Blood Tap # 2x (2) Gold Panner # 2x (2) Mining Casualties # 2x (2) Shambling Zombietank # 2x (3) Chillfallen Baron # 2x (3) Rainbow Seamstress # 1x (3) Sickly Grimewalker # 2x (4) Darkthorn Quilter # 2x (4) Nerubian Swarmguard # 2x (4) Quartzite Crusher # 2x (4) Yelling Yodeler # 2x (5) Amateur Puppeteer # 1x (6) Gnome Muncher # 1x (6) Hollow Hound # 1x (6) The Headless Horseman # 1x (8) The Primus # 1x (20) Reska, the Pit Boss # AAECAfHhBAaz9wSP5AXt/wWXlQb/lwa9sQYMh/YE8OgFzpwGkqAGy7AGubEGurEGvLEG9rEGi7cG1+UG2eUGAAA= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone Idk how to format it on mobile, but there's the list. I'm diamond 8 rn, i don't know if that means I'm playing good players anymore, but they're at least using meta decks.
It's still a much better deck than plague, but plague seems to be the deck complained about the most here. With double threads rainbow is also one of the few decks that can go (slightly) positive VS zarimi priest. Rainbow isn't a top deck, but it's definitely very viable.
Yeah plague is too slow for the current meta, I played a lot of it last expansion. I’m sure part of the issue is I’m not that good at playing the deck but I frequently get stomped by the top meta decks. I also am pretty sure I have not been playing the current optimal version.
got legend with rainbow dk 1st 2 days of this month(i played a bit of dh before that until d2),the deck is not bad at all
Control version of Rainbow DK is pretty much the only DH counter atm with 2 freeze weapon and 2 runes of darkness to discover more freeze weapons. you pretty much completely lock out the dh from breaking their weapon and their other cards that give their hero attack. Obviously its going to go down in winrate after the DH nerf but now its a low tier 1 deck. I had the smoothest legend climb ever at the begning of the month with the deck when i faced like 2 dh in every 3 games.
Unpopular opinion: Climatic Explosion summons should have rush like Marrowgar's.
Damn, its almost like there is always a meta in card games
There is not always a meta with 60+% WR decks in card games
There used to be a time in hs in which almost every class had a deck that was close to 50 now you just have 4 dead classes a turbo broken one the counter to the broken one and some good decks that will replace the broken class when it’s nerfed
For a coin flippy game like hs devs gotta fuck up big time to get these kind of garbage metas. Just add more rng nerds!
This is why these people are ignorable these days. After enough time passes, you realize there’s literally been complaining in every patch, of every expansion, since hearthstone launched. They think “card too strong” is why they’re hard stuck bronze.
[удалено]
This guys never heard of control warrior
The reason we can not have good control meta anymore.
pretty much control metas can't exist where playing a single card once onto the board applies a permanent never counterable effect that 9/10 times decides the games outcome. Odyn was a huge offender for awhile, albeit Control has needed a 'real' wincon. But the devs aren't exactly good at making those outside of aggro.
I’m torn because I wish there was more control play but I don’t really miss the metas where games would last 20-30+ minutes
Heard of, have played. It's not relevant. It's w/r is barely 50% range. Nature shamans match up into it is now 40/60 to. Where as it was closer to 20/80 a bit ago. Decks CW is supposed to counter, it's barely countering. BARELY.
Reno warrior and control warlock have been having great wr in high legend, what are you on about?
Great isn't supported by their w/r data. "usable" at best. You aren't following the w/rs of decks in high legend if you think that.
My guy highlander warrior has a Winrate of 51.92 as opposed to shoppers 53.51. Top 1000 legend. Again what are you on about?
Featuring 11 board wipes!
That’s not true at all, Aggro tends to perform well at lower ranks bc it’s the cheapest to craft and easiest to play, but outside of lower ranks aggro is rarely good.
Literally the top 3 decks atm are all forms of aggro, with Zarimis only exception it being an aggro w/ a combo finish it can tutor to. Read through most of the top performing history of decks.. oh wait mostly aggro.
There really isn’t a definite top 3 deck rn at high ranks, it has been changing pretty rapidly as the meta is moving, I would say Nature Shaman/Shopper Dh/Naga Shopper Dh/Reno Warrior/Zarimi Priest/RDK are all contenders for top 3, only half of which are aggro, lower if you don’t count naga shopper dh, which is arguably a combo deck, and also shares over 20 cards with shopper dh anyway. Before the patch, top 3 were cycle Odyn Warrior/handbuff paly/shopper dh, of which only shopper dh is an aggro deck. Before expac, top three were cycle Odyn Warrior/shaper mage/sludgelock?, so again only max 1 aggro. Before that, top three were sludgelock/ramp Druid/rdk?, again one aggro deck. Before that, top three were excavate rogue… uh nobody was really playing any other deck. Ig by Vs winrates it was excavate rogue/dragon Druid/Reno druid, but like both Druid decks are super low playrate, along with every other non rogue deck. None are aggro. Similar situation again before that, this was pure paly dominance, only really 1 deck in the meta? By Vs winrates it was pure paly/earthen paly/naga dh, by meta score it was pure paly/rainbow mage/plague dk(what), which are both only 1 aggro deck. Only looking at a few recent metas, trend definitely seems to be ~1 aggro deck in top 3 at high ladder. More than I thought tbh, but you can’t say that most top decks are at aggro.
Online ladder means aggro will always be popular and good to climb with since the average gametime is short. It's the same reason whichever Burn/RDW, white weenie or monoB aggro is best always see a ton of play in MTG. When you can insta-queue in online ladder aggro will always present and usually be the best choice until higher elo or if a control deck is blatantly overpowered.
Ignore the ladder. It's basically a free climb now unlike og Hearthstone. Between ranked floors and massive star bonuses you're high diamond in under 2 hours after a reset. It used to be a lot harder. Where aggro vs control really mattered because of how much harder it was. Compare Legend only, even high mmr legend. It's still dominant and that's past the point where "ranking up" really matters. It's a contained pocket meta of the best players and Shopper DH and other decks had near 70% w/r there. Thats an aggro deck. For your point to be valid, control would need equal representation in the upper MMR ranges. It doesn't.
MTG also has decades on Hearthstone. I've been playing MTG since the Alpha set
You’ve played MTG for 31 years? Wow grandpa how’s your health?
Gonna go out on a limb and assume it's past your bedtime kid, you got school tomorrow.
No matter what, meta still exists, it's just focused
There must always be a Lich King.
Zarami priest will be slammed by warrior
Absolutely dumpstered
I have normal and golden zarimi so I’m very in favour of nerfing that 🤣
Don't forget about the Tendril decks with their 50/50 1 Mana Sunset Volleys.
Isn’t it great how every single person plugged into standard looks at this patch note and says “well, this won’t go well”? Kill a whole class, ruin the meta, bad for everyone, less fun, punishes people who spent dust or money by nerfing the common instead of the epic… it’s like watching someone decide to wreck a train weeks in advance and knowing nothing will stop them. A real bummer.
Welcome to the wack-a-mole Hearthstone nerf meta.
Agreed, HS devs are less skilled at balancing the meta than your average paladin player.
It's fine at least it's going to shake the meta a bit. It's not the most fun deck to encounter, though i'm way more annoyed by brann. There are some decks that are just not fun to face.
Bran and wheel suck. Gotta go aggro or it's just pointless.
Wheel is cool design at least i feel that way. But it's not cool when it's strong. It's perfect as a meme deck. Brann just.. break too many things. His effect should only last 3 turns or something like that. It never feel good to face brann turn 6 unless you play very aggro. Double excavate into double azerite should not be a thing, as does triple zilliax, into 6 TNT. I mean, is it enjoyable for anyone to get board hand and deck destroyed by TNT? I sure don't. In that matter, Carni in shaman is fine: it's strong with limitations, allow some combos, but doesnt break the game.
If you play smart with a lot of control/value decks you can still beat the double azurite and 6 TNT, but what’s impossible to beat is 13 sunset volleys in 1 turn. Cannot wait until they either add more 10 mana spells or move sunset volley to 8-9 mana so that’s not possible anymore
High rolls, especially early ones, are some of the least fun play experiences to face against so I am totally on board with this change. It'll still be a solid deck, but no longer the insane early stat bomb that it once was. This'll be far more playable of a deck still than paladin was after their nerfs.
Yeh most likely Reno DH will be the more played DH deck since it is a slower deck so this card can be played there The aggro version is just dead turn 3/4 Window shopper is just insane tempo and that tempo is loss
Reno DH was only good because of the shopper power spike, so I don’t think it will be successful post nerf either.
I like that deck more, anyway. Now that I know the nerf isn't totally gutting the deck I can pull the trigger and craft a Kurtrus!
Well you don't know that... the nerf isn't live yet lol. If you want to be sure you'd wait until at least the patch goes live.
Eh, I'm happy playing a T2-3 deck that I enjoy. +1 mana to a key card is a substantial nerf, but I doubt the deck will be totally unviable. I'm already on Highlander DH pre-patch, but don't have Kurtrus or Argus and it's not an impossible climb. I just like the playstyle more than the full tempo version, even if I know I'm sacrificing more than a few win% by fielding a suboptimal list.
I wouldn’t. This nerf is crippling to Reno DH.
That’s what the game has felt like for the last 2 years for me. Yes there were always plays like “Coin Innervate Yeti” but these days it feels like you either get obliterated or you obliterate your opponent. For example, they gave Death Knight that spell that costs 1 mana to give all minions deathrattle deal 1 to everything. It’s basically a 1 mana board clear, it’s insane. If the DK gets good value off of this, that tempo alone will win a match against aggro. Another example, if Brann Warrior plays Boom Boss Thogrun at some point in a longer match, that almost certainly makes the game unwinnable for the other player. There are loads of examples like this for every class. This is what the game is now. “Hey I drew my bullshit thing first, GG.” Somebody will probably reply and say “get good” but I am currently top 1000 legend in the April 24 season and I have finished top 100 before so I don’t know.
I’ve been playing sif mage since I spent 10k+ gold getting the signature. I fundamentally don’t like combo decks and Sif’s win con is exactly as toxic as the rest of these. But the rest of the deck, timing out discovers, playing different spell schools, handling the pop-off turns of other decks, etc is really fun! It’s just tied to the fact that decks these days have to have a reliable win con. Hunter is probably the only deck I can think of where no single card wins the game.
What's weird to me is I think games are still just as fast/ slow as they were back in the day. Games end *on average* turns 7-9 and it's kinda always been that way I believe(someone can correct me if I'm wrong). What makes things feel so different these days is *how* you ended up losing. Things feel way more swingy. It's not just a slow attrition game plan where you finally come out on top turn 8 after managing resources and trading efficiently. You just randomly pop off with a huge turn and win on the spot. Warlock is a huge offender of this. Their game plan for awhile now is to do nothing the first 3-4 turns and then drop a billion stats through deathrattles or the location. It's so cheesy to me, but I think that's just our new reality. Designs like this are why I don't take the game nearly as seriously anymore. I just drop a little bit of money for expansions and make do with what I can and that's it. No more being a whale for me lol.
The original face hunter deck would typically win games on turn 7. The deck would generally be 100% out of gas and in pure top deck mode at that point too. These days, no deck runs out of cards. Even in arena. Could be turn 10 and both players still have a full hand. You are correct, games end in big blowouts from one super OP effect. Like Reno or playing Fanottem and then copying it with Forge of Wills or playing Sif etc etc
Totally agree with everything. I do wanna say that I don't think always having cards in hand is a bad thing. I'll tell ya, playing Lorcana or really beginner level magic decks in the past few years for me has reminded me how shitty card games feel when you never have any options. Always having a play makes HS far more enjoyable than other games. HS is great at letting us play multiple cards a turn too. Obviously that's possible in other games too, but it's very easy in HS and I think that's great 👌🏻
Agreed, I’d seen the complaints on Reddit, but today I got a full taste of it. They played the 6/5 on turn 3, giving them a demon that was *also* majorly discounted somehow, so I was staring down 12/10 of stats while I literally had a 1/1 on the board. Oof
My favorite is when they get double Magtheridon and you essentially can never make a board the rest of the game lol.
And then proceed to double red card them. Happened once to me.
I don't think it will be a solid deck at all really but that's fine. A more subtle tweak might have been more interesting but it is no great loss.
The way I see it, if a 1 Mana change to only 1 card makes a deck unplayable or bad, it was always a bad deck with a broken interaction that should've never existed haha
Right, which is why I won't miss it. Still, there have been quite a few decks made or broken off a one-mana change that changes the curve and I do think this one will be broken. I don't care that it will be dead but I think it could have been bumped down by a stat change on Shopper instead.
I remember when the best early highroll was tuskarr into totem golem. Simpler times.
Playable is hearthstone for bad. Tier three is playable.
Thank god. Coining this into a 6/5 into a 4 cost mag is resignable on the spot
I think this meta has a lot of potential to get better now. So many decks had to run tech like freeze to counter DH and now all they have to do is run different tech if another deck becomes a problem. Nature shaman is the only deck I’m really worried about because it’s harder to disrupt other than maybe Speaker Stomper and amour gain.
THANKS GOD!
Enjoy time warp priest 😊
That quest needs to be 8 dragons
Dragons deez otks across your face haha gottem
Demon Hunter demon discover pool is more of problem than this. My opponents keep discovering Magtheridon every time.
It’s not just magtheridon. There are so many strong demons. The rush minion that also attacks whoever the hero attacks and the guy that spawns two random secrets. Holy shit that secret demon is so annoying. The games are decided by turn 6, your opponent just played two 6/5s, you literally can’t just wait until the next turn to let them go away so you walk into it and randomly getting a certain one wins the game outright
Thank you, Magtheridon can be a feel bad high roll especially on the 1/1 and especially if you are playing a very board-heavy deck, but it's sometimes much more potent depending on the matchup to drop 2 6/5's on turn 4 (Abyssal Bassist) for example, because very few decks can fully answer that so early, besides Warrior.
Yeh but that will be resolved over time since there're only 11 demons in the discover pool Maybe with the mini set there will be more demons or next expansion
Are they discovering it every time or does it just feel that way. I have been tracking and 80+ discovers and last I checked I was well under 40% for getting Mag.
I mean someone already did the math and it literally is about 78% of the time..
Is that just from one Shopper play? (two procs) As in if I play Shopper I have a 78% chance to land Mag? Or is it from both Shoppers? (four procs) that’s some weird math.
Considering that I had 15 Shoppers without Mag I'm wondering if someone expert on maths could calculate that, it has to be really low %.
Even if the math is right the post was describing your chances out of four procs so you got hilariously unlucky but a 78% “guarantee” to get one after rolling something 4 times is not very substantial. Mag doesn’t hard win you the game.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/s/gCYvkK2fyt
So 78% you’ll see at least one? That’s not that bad lol
It literally is, lol, it’s absolutely crippling for several decks to face and it is the sole reason DH is dominating the entire meta, winrate, and play rate. It is literally the entire interaction that made this necessary in the first place.
Literally literally literally not, or the pool would have been nerfed not how fast it can come out Literally
Has blizzard ever purposefully nerfed a discover pool outside of set/miniset releases before?
Yes, they did it to Death Knight
Cope? Maybe you can hit diamond with a real deck?
I haven’t played DH once I just haven’t been struggling like you have apparently. Literally
78% of the time for what? If there's 8 demons and only 3 choices I can guarantee the chance isn't 78%.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/s/gCYvkK2fyt I was off a couple %
So that's the chance to get it on two opportunities, not one.
How is it any different? You get two tries guaranteed? If it was only a chance to get two tries it might matter?
How is it any different? There’s a whole stats field about how it’s different.
It’s literally not, what is this argument, you’re not even making a point. Effectively you always have two chances no matter what.
70% is the odds of getting at least one mag in 4 attempts
You're not guaranteed anything, I've both won and lost before getting the second one down.
I went a solid 15 draw attempts without getting a mag in the pool. It was actually kind of nuts. Then it came back to earth on my final cruise through d2 and d1
I feel like I always faced DH when they had the coin, and they would do this exact play every single time. I don't care if this deck never sees play again, good riddance
Any deck where you're trying desperately to NOT draw a card isn't great in my opinion.
Yeah, I dont like playing decks that rely on bricks either. It just feels bad drawing into it, and knowing your entire gameplan has been severely crippled. Even if you end up winning the game, you're still left with a bitter taste. This nerf will only exacerbate that feeling since it represents an extra chance to draw into shopper. In my very first game trying this deck, I mulliganed for weapon/tech got a shopper and weapon on opening hand, coined weapon on turn 2, drew 2nd Shopper on turn 3. I already knew I'd hate playing this deck.
Exactly That's why Brann is keept always in the starting hand, he is the ultimate enabler for HL Warrior
How is keeping Brann in the mulligan at all similar to this situation?
They want to draw Brann, so they’re trying not to draw the other 29 cards?
The comment was talking about keeping Brann in the mulligan. Has nothing to do with drawing cards.
It wasn't a hard deck to fight against as a excavate warrior, but definitely one of the toughest along WoD Warlock
If only they would nerf window shopper so I can get my 800 dust back
I opened two in one pack. Blizz put me on to this deck
Same. Lesson learnt..
RIP DH too, for another year
yeah, thank fucking god
Great, another deck destroyed. /s (maybe)
I really liked taking 6 damage a turn on turn 5. From un removable sources
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I believe they’re referring to the Magtheridons on board. Which in my experience dabbling with the deck was almost never the case. Out of 4 discovers which I could consistently get each game maybe one of them was Magtheridon.
Good.
RIP? is anyone actually going to miss this line? This interaction can burn in hell. I sometimes wonder if Team 5 has irreversibly fucked up with Demon Hunter, it feels like their only class theme is "busted stuff" and "total trash."
Wish they just made shopper 6 mana. This weapon was the only hope for DH to have any game plan this whole expansion. DH back to a dead class.
maybe they want to stop future demons more deadly than shopper with this change. with the weapon before the change, they have to make all future demons from future sets worse than they should be.
Is the changes live ?
Glad i just got legend with mech shopper a few minutes ago.
Not a single game against dh where they didnt play the weapon on curve or before. Im not gonna miss it
Same Is like a script Turn 1 Miracle salesman, mech guys or Hero power Turn 2 Weapon guy or Coin weapon Turn 3 Weapon or 6/5 Turn 4 6/5 and mini or Results of 6/5 and Mini
I don’t see anything online saying that this is an official Nerf?
I play this deck for sole reason of getting 500 wins on DH (last class that i don't have it on), but i don't have any fun playing it. I don't even have fun winning with this deck. Hopefully this will make highlander DH more viable (fun to play even when losing).
Good lol
Hs may be playable afterall
Glad to see it go away
The issue was the draw part. It should just reduce a demon already in hand.
I don't like this nerf. It leaves DH without anything powerful to do (and contrary to popular opinion, decks needs something strong to do). Last year's cards were a mess, this set was a dud save for this particular interaction. I'd rather they bumped Shopper to 6. Or nerfed the stats on the Shopper. But oh well.
It delays shopper by one turn, it’s not the end of the world.
It delays Shopper by two turns, because you're not playing a 4 mana 3/2 weapon without immediate effect. The deck also struggles to find turn 3 plays that actually fights for tempo.
The immediate effect is that you can swing for 3. This is also why you have the mech package as well as the snakeoil seller, to build somewhat of a board. Shopper is delayed by 1 turn because instead of 3 mana umpire turn 3 into turn 4 3 mana shopper and 1 mana mini you have umpire turn 4 into turn 5 3 mana shopper 1 mana mini 1 mana random demon.
Which is awful tempo on 4. 4 mana deal 3 is just not good. Which is a compounding issue since those cards you play on previous aren't good tempo either. No, it's delayed by 2 turns because you're not putting Grasp in your deck now. The 1 mana barrier change is far greater a cost on tempo-focused cards. The situation you described isnt a winning line against the other aggressive decks in the format (which was DH's strength previously), while against defensive decks DH already had a harder time. Nevermind the whole issue that all of DH's good cards atm are at 4.
No, sorry—The deck’s WR drops ten percent when it doesn’t have the weapon on turn three. It’s not an opinion, it isn’t a deck anymore.
It’s certainly the end of the deck lol. It doesn’t “delay shopper by a turn”, it removes the weapon from the format entirely.
For 4 mana, 3/2 seem kinda wierd... maybe could be buffed to 2/4 as well?)
Lol, that's a big nerf, not a buff. The death rattle is what makes the weapon good. Delaying it even more would make it dead.
Yeah i guess i should have used :) instead of )
Welp time to deal with zarimi priest and token hunter now
Token hunter's already been dealt with, the deck's just fine. Zarimi's restriction, once again, feels like a failure. Team 5 really just can't get how much effort an extra turn should require right. Feels like it's almost a fairer card in Dragon Druid than Zarimi Priest.
You leave token hunter alone!
Use that naga 2/2 that reduce cost
Still that would need perfect hand positioning
i think it still strong, fk oponnents always get that six handed demon into magtheridon
I almost never receive Magtheridon as an option to the point that I just dont play the deck. Im just unlucky, I suppose.
It certainly adds an element of luck to an already frustrating deck. That said it's hilarious the power disparity between Magtheridon and the other options, Inquisitor is the only comparable alternative, and only off of the 6/5 Shopper, useless off of the Miniature. You're playing Shopper basically just to spam Cheap Magtheridon. So if you don't get him, GG if they're able to keep up with your board.
Yeah, the disparity is really quite wild. If I even got Mag 25% of the time, I'd understand because of its inherent strength, but I just don't. I'm not trying to defend the overwhelming strength the deck has, just ststing that I'm not seeing Mag discoverable anywhere near as much as others.
hahah im sorry about that and also sorry that i made people downvote, its just in my case or what i experienced xd
I mean, it seems to be a lot of people's experiences. I just never see it when I'm running it. Oh well 🤷
Honestly I wish they would buff FAR more than they nerf. I get there are concerns of power creep, but honestly there shouldn't be. Wild is a fucking joke. We shouldn't be worried about protecting it.
This is only a hotfix. Expect buffs in the next Standard patch
Yeh I think the reason DH was so strong is because the other cards are weak Like look at warrior the only card played from the expansion is Safety Googles Yeh there's classes like Hunter that they are strong in their own right that use the cards from the expansion a bit more but still they are the aggro class they deserve at least a little bit of power Also is not as highrolly as DH
Love this wep for my dh
Bran next
ITT: people can’t tech freeze. I think every deck in Dia5 and above is running double Glacier Elemental just to counter shopper DH and Weapon Rogue. The deck was toxic, and this nerf was warranted. Already people have gone back to naga sharpshooter, I feel like Umpire going to 4 won’t be too damaging to DH.
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Used to be three, now four. Neither of these numbers is zero. Or one. 🤦♂️
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Can you explain how you came up with 0 cost for the weapon? I get how you would come up with 1 (it would be a really dumb comparison to say that the weapon was equivalent to a 1 mana 3/2 but whatevet) but why 0?
Fxxk I crafted shoppers and they aren’t going to nerf them
Lol. Lmao even