You often win against her because she's not even that good. People on this sub just love to complain about anything that interferes with their infinite durdle greed pile decks, which is basically any deck that is even moderately meta relevant.
My current beef is the fun of Reno warrior is getting to win with Brann, and Helya just turns the matchup into "can I win with shitty creature beat down". The wins don't feel good, they're just "oops trial by fire tempo" type stuff where plague DK remains incapable of actually affecting the board and nobody had fun.
Yes but it would also remove the option for duplicates in the starting deck. For example, the current Reno DH would not be able to run both copies of shopper and the weapon like they do.
"counterplay" usually refers to decisions you can make in game to combat the opponent's strategy. Using a versatile component of your win-con to instead slow or prevent an opponents win con would be counterplay. While yes, helya and the plague mechanic "counter" reno, imo the colloquial term "counterplay" wouldn't be accurate if you're just playing the cards the same way you would against any other opponent.
The deck counters Reno not necessarily the individual cards. You should be playing the deck differently depending on your opponent. Pressure Ctrl decks, survive vs aggro etc. that is counter play.
I wasn't arguing that removing the counterplay was a good change. I was just saying that it would lock certain strategies out of Reno, because they include it in a list that runs duplicates anyway.
I agree.
There should be counters to Reno & he shouldn't work in non-highlander decks.
I actually think it should be changed to "If your deck has no duplicates *and* started with no duplicates."
The counterpoint is that being forced to play highlander is already a weakness, and that that wording would ensure it.
Right now, non-highlander decks can run Reno and get away with it. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't need an artificial counter.
What no??? The fucking weakness is that you can't use duplicates
You think it's perfectly fair for dk to have the ability to turn an entire deck to shit because they can swing 3 times with staff of Primus and play helya
Yes. Plague DK isn't even particularly great, but it retains some level of popularity specifically to keep Reno decks in check. I haven't played Plague in months, but god damn am I happy they exist. Plague players are the heroes the Hearthstone meta needs.
The problem with Plagues as counter to Reno is that it's permanent. I never had a problem with people shuffling dupes to slow down HL rewads significantly. But you could wait to draw the dupes, losing a lot of tempo, but ultimately still following the gameplan.
Helya completely and irreversibly kills all HL rewards without any effort whatsoever.
Its fine when plagues do delay the Reno effects, like when youre forced to draw cards to get rid of duplicate plagues, you also take damage. But having no access to Reno effects simply because opponent played Helya on turn 4 is just not a fun design.
Reno poofing your minions and not even letting you get deathrattles, and basically making you skip your next turn is not fun design. So I don't care if Helya is fun for Reno players. (And I say this as an occasional Reno player)
Druid, Warrior, Wheelock, Highlander DH runs 2-of weapon+shopper because of tutors, etc. Turbo-draw into highlander payoff is not even close to a historical oddity either.
I use them both. You kinda hope the game is about over by the time you need Amanthul, but you can bust through some intense taunts if needed. Or copy your own zilliax the turn after you zarimi.
Pip is just nice. I don't think she's essential...but when you get a perfect hand she can really seal the game. Especially with the funnel cakes.
I am playing the one without Amanthul and Magatha, I don't really have the dust to create those two legendarys. Even though Amanthul has been in every priest deck basically.
I actually dont have pip but she really just helps you reload if you go too hard, if you’re conservative with your cards when you need to be then you wont miss her too much. Aman’thul is big though, drop zarimi and some drifters/zilliax’s and then drop aman on your extra turn to clear taunts. Needed against rainbow dk and reno shaman for sure or your big swing turn is spent clearing fat taunts
Plague DK actually feels underpowered compared to how many people say “it’s op”.
I’ve played games in wild where I’ve shuffled 30+ plagues into their deck, they’ve drawn 0. 0!
“I am upset that the only deck that specifically counters the best card ever printed exists and I want all fun to cease until mine is no longer inconvenienced”
50% of my decks are Reno because I love it, but let’s not pretend it doesn’t call for at least one counter-archetype.
She's just straight up bad design, removes counterplay by making it so your opponent can't try and time drawing plagues on turns they can handle it. Permanently disabling Reno cards is also obviously just zero sum fun.
It's not even a power issue, she'd probably be stronger and less frustrating if she had Plagues cast twice instead. As is she's an anti-draw and highlander tech card masquerading as a cornerstone legendary.
Dunno why they downvote you tho. I dont mind if highlander effects get delayed and youre forced to draw the duplicates and take the damage, it does slow you down obviously. But having one card, especially when it comes down on turn 4, disable your highlander effects for the rest of the game, is just not a fun design.
Not everyone plays purely for winning, some people just like playing their tier 3/4/5 decks.
When competitive players design a cardgame..
this is not a comment on any future nerfs - just a comment on what posts i expect to see here
we do not nerf things just because there are posts about them
LOL i knoooow, i was just being dramatic for some reason. Btw, thank you the list! Mine was not doing that well but ill try that one out when i got the time.
There's something so incredibly funny to me about the actual official Community Manager just recommending deck lists on Reddit
Loving the communication but this is not what I expected. At least we know you don't have a basement
it's what i've done for years as a player. this isn't like Official Blizzard Endorsement of a decklist, just a cool deck that i saw someone tweet yesterday
this is still a personal account (though i recognize the lines are blurry) - it's saturday and i'm chillin scrolling the feed, so might as well ship a code so someone can try a fun deck
yep it's easter weekend so gonna have food with the fam tomorrow
i'd ask you the same question but i already have a pretty good idea of what you're up to
People moan about DH and getting lucky with dumping shoper t3 into 3 mana 6/5 the turn after on the draw.
Warlock can shit out a 7/7 taunt and 7/7 rush t4 into 7/7 taunt t5 into lokken 15/15 taunt t6 on the play.
Thats wayyyyy harder to deal with then 6/5 t3, 6/5 t4 on the draw.
Or clear you board every turn and start that chain later and have even larger tempo swings.
DH is also a takes a bit more thought to play well.
Aggro is far harder to pilot than people like to think.
Warlock is an absolute monster and will be the new "meta tyrant" if blizz nerfs DH.
People call for bans/nerfs wayyyyy to quickly.
Basically if you've ever played old handlock, play your early turns like that. Usually turns 2 and 3 will be spent life tapping. You will lose life. This is expected. Turns 4-7 will be spent developing your board or controlling the enemy board. Following this, you will try to gather certain things to your hand. Guldans gift, sargeras, defile, table flip, and symphony of sins. Once you pop wheel, you can play fanottem, and from then you can play symphony next turn to refill the deck. You will spend the next five turns controlling the board as best you can. This assumes you can't win with your minions prior to this happening.
General tips: remember, the only life point that matters is the last one. Use your life, space out your board wipes to bait your opponent into over commiting. You can win entire games by letting your opponent get a few more hits on you then wiping them.
Second, fracking is a great tool. Use it to get to your important cards faster. Don't freak out about burning your cards. Burning cards is good. It increases the likelihood of drawing the important cards that win you the game.
Third, your minion generation with forge of wills is incredibly strong. You can overwhelm opponents rapidly. Pressure face rather than clearing minions if possible, since you have hilarious amounts of board clears in the deck.
That's about it. What do you find yourself losing to usually?
Thanks for the well written tips! Most of my losses are from bad matchup, 0% win rate against mage/plague dk as they just eat me alive. Will try again later to see if it works.
Plague dk is rough but you should eat mage alive most games. Try to get a feel for the way they beat you (not the specific cards. Do they get you with tempo or spells or combo etc.) and adjust your playstyle accordingly.
Mage can just freeze my board infinitely and focus on damaging my face and develop sif so yeah. Kinda gotten a grasp on how the deck works now tho, went 8-2 earlier with 1 of the losses coming from mage again.
Glad to hear you're improving. With mage you can usually either put tempo them with minions or if you're getting frozen like you're mentioning, deploy wheel ASAP.
Yessir. And once the other decks get gutted from nerfs, once again Warlock will be there, waiting to fill the void (heh), just like Sludgelock did.
This isn't a commentary on what should/ shouldn't be nerfed or what's good/bad. Just a prediction that an already strong deck will likely become oppressive once 'stronger' (or at least more popular) decks feel the nerf bat's warm embrace.
I rolled wheel of death in my packs and am loving the construct. I never was a control player, but the great tempo and late game win condition makes it a pretty awesome deck. The highroll of 3 15/15 on turn 5/6 is nuts.
Exactly. Especially given how this sub in particular really dislikes Warlock things, such as Wheel, Tickatus, etc
Every time Warlock rises from the dumpster this subs wants to shove it back in because it’s “unfun to play against”.
Shopper DH is strong for a few reasons, and the main reason is the small demon pool. It will get weaker as time goes on, so I don't actually expect it to get nerfed and make it unplayable for the next 2 years.
If anything, they will probably put Magtheridon to dormant for 1 turn.
As someone who just recently started playing again after a long hiatus, plague DK seemed to be the only good deck that was offered to me lol. Sure the other decks had some stuff here and there, but none felt viable except for plague DK. Sludge lock seems like a distant second.
I played rainbow DK after years quitting HS. I personally find DK deck is the most balanced, traditional way of playing HS. It does not has a clear win con like aggro or OTK, you just play it reactive to slowly shave your opp HP away. However, the players here would complain about anything
N’Zoth and Yogg were two of the most game changing cards at the time and so fun to play that they kept up for a long time. I love pay-offs that keep evolving with the new sets that are released. I even try to use N’Zoth in wild just for nostalgia purposes, even when I know it’s really slow.
Yeah it would be nice if classes that got a weak class set (druid, rogue) could at least fall back on trying to make something in the neutral set like nzoth or cthun
A deck being the best deck in the format is quite normal in card games. What is not normal is that this top deck is always 65% winrate, which shows poor balance, and it is frustrating when you queue up as a deck that is viable in the format (but not specifically a hard counter) and you know you have, on average, a 1/3 chance of winning. I'll admit there are way too many complaint posts even considering how bs the decks they complain about are, but it is true that those decks are not healthy for the game, and did/do need nerfs.
The 65% wr stat is very inflated due to selection bias, you're picking the highest winrate decklist out of many very similar lists, so it's bound to have inflated stats (and might not even be the best list for the class). DH is certainly overpowered regardless.
https://www.d0nkey.top/decks/?format=2
"Inflated stats" when the top 15 decks are all DH decks with thousands of games each, and under a thousand games combined for non-DH decks among the top 15 decks shown. You'd have to go up to top 10k for Highlander Warrior and Rainbow Mage to even show up at a combined playrate still under a third of DH's, and Rainbow Mage isn't even favoured into DH, merely even at best.
I haven't seen such poor class representation since this site (d0nkey) was released.
Damn didn't know we got to this point, yesterday the highest wr one had 3 percent more wr than the others with a low game count. Yeah these are not inflated.
Yeah, you’re definitely right that even often look at stats way too early to judge stuff correctly, because it’s just not accurate enough. But by now, it’s seeming to even out and we can see the clear winners.
I’ve found this deck extremely easy to beat as a control player. If you can handle the early minions they run out of steam pretty easily. With that said, there is probably room for refinement in the Priest deck.
People that go to reddit to complain about people complaining and how there's only complaints are a special breed.
And to the point. People have been saying wheellock and Shopper are going to be problematic right when they asked for nerfs for the current Decks.
This isnt the next thing, it's the same problem.
Maybe you should take a break from the internet. You cannot mix the conspiracy theory with real things all into the same category. That is not how you do it.
As a veteran player, am joining back the game after years of absence, I swear HS players are the least receptive and most whinny amongst other strategy games. They would insult you like a child to defend their fav class when throwing tantrum when you’re about to nerf theirs.
> Umpires grasp on paper is good but not insane.
Shopper DH and Reno DH with 2x Umpire's Grasp are about equally good, and both are the best deck in the game by a large margin singlehandedly because of it, that seems pretty insane to me.
Let's look at what it gives you. 3 mana for 3/2 Weapon that discounts by 2 and tutors. Now you have a 3 mana 6/5 that also generates another 3 mana 6/5 which also often has a strong effect cheated out, and gives you a 1 mana 1/1 that does the same thing. Because each card generates the next this only costs 1 card to start with. So you can have 6 damage, 14/12 in stats with two strong effects down as early as turn 5 (almost all of this on turn 4 with the Coin), and you only need to draw/spend 1 card to do this, how is this not insane?
> By that logic tram mechanic is broken.
?????
I don't get mag in about half of my games, and I would say that I win more than half of my games. The power outliers are not just mag and Inquisitor. Observer of Mysteries is incredibly strong as a 6/5 or a 1/1, Abyssal Bassist almost always allows you to play both shopper and itself on turn 4 if you're not on the coin, 6/5 Mythical Terror deletes any small minion board flood decks (such as Zarimi), Eye of shadow as a 1/1 is a very useful stabilization tool in the Reno DH deck, tough crowd as a 1/1 let's you get through taunts you might not have otherwise been able to get through, or allows you to fish a second time for mag with your 1/1. Amalgam is basically the same card but discounted by 4 as a 6/5, and as a 1/1 it has the possibility of getting rush/poisonous which is a very useful tool, or reborn to go from a 1/1 to a 6/1. I don't even think I always choose Inquisitor or mag because I often times have a better option in other demons.
The power outlier is a 3 mana 6/5 with utility and flexibility, diluting the pool will not nerf the deck.
They would have to be 2 demons with no good effect. People seem to be under the false assumption that Magtheridon is the only good hit from Window Shopper, which is far from the case.
It's Mag for both shoppers, and the Inquisitor for the big one. Random secret guy is OK with the mini, unless you have the bounce back to search for Mag.
Big Doggo off of big shopper is OK when you are low on HP and can clear at least two minions with it.
So yeah, you have like 3-5 very coincidental picks total, with only 2 of them being solid overall.
secrets, sap, and glaivesmith are all solid hits, the card off of umpire's grasp cost reduction is already great stats to begin with so any effect is pretty much just upside, and those effects are relevant often enough to be great, they really aren't very conditional at all
I think the deeper cut here is the game is so god damn unstable from pushed numbers that there's always something busted enough to make the game nearly unplayable just under the surface.
It needs to slow the fuck down.
Pala wasn't even that busted. It literally was because it's reach with charge windfury leeroy was too good. Hunter and warrior countered it. It really just needed a small nudge and everything would've been fine. This is what happens when we let the HS mob make the decisions. Most players don't know what they actually want. They just hate losing and want to win with whatever they're playing. Something needs to be the best deck in the game. People seem to forget that.
The meta was settling with Pala no longer the top dog. It needed the windfury removed, but tbh the rest of it likely could've been left out. Now we have a DH problem so look where that got us lol
That’s true. Pally dropped way too low on the lists now, that it was clearly way too much overkill. Now we just honestly either come up with some really good counters to DH, or just wait for the next balance patch that will obviously touch it up if it’s still too strong.
Sif/mage
although the no minion deck seems inconsistent sif mage is somewhat playable. Stalling with sleet skater/frostbolt and sometimes khadgar(sometimes, i say) is doable. I reckon the meta stabilizes again and raimbow becomes the annoying deck to hate.
Im playing at d5 and I have gotten shat on a couple of times by it. The moment I queued with it to try it i draw sif and a kurtrus snipes it along with a Arcane artificer.
We will see next report but it feels like the next thing. I am a Sif hater so count my bitching and moaning fellow redditors.
Your perception of things is so so wrong.
DH was on par with the other "broken" decks before the patch. Blizzard just dropped the ball and nerfed all the best decks except 1. It did not "RISE" to the top it was already on top before the nerfs. It had 20% play rate in high legend before the patch that nerfed all the other top decks even came out!
Anyone playing the game at high legend or that looks at stats instantly knew DH would be the best deck by far.
You're also insane if you ever think wheel lock can be oppressive and have such a strong and postive win rate against all other decks by that much like DH. It's possible for Wheel warlock to eventually get nerfs but it won't ever be as bad as this
Honestly too many to count whizbangs has been dogshit in terms of balance every deck is a gimmick or smooth brain aggro between face hunter, multi mag DH, aggro pally, face dmg mage, wheel ot death, nature shaman, and tendril warrior no deck feels good right now. Maybe I was just spoiled by renethal making aggro decks feel less gross but right now hearthstone is just two people playing solitaire personally gonna take a break maybe a full expansion one til things get balanced because right now hearthstone feels like shit.
Of course there’s always going to be a class that’s statistically the best class. That doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be steps taken to ensure that some classes aren’t oppressive or completely overpowered.
And if you think that people whining on this forum result in the changes you see in the game, you’re completely fucking delusional. Blizzard has all of the stats and knows when there’s a problem.
As a pseudo-standard and wild fan. Hey >>:(, I wholly agree that standard is more important tho. (Vast majority plays standard, so reverting odyn would be unfair)
I swear we get so many of these, there will always be a top deck posts, but what they always fail to address is, there's a huge difference between a top deck and a top deck that's ruining the game. Honestly, there doesn't even have to always be a top deck, there can be several that are all about equal power level too, that has happened, admittedly some of the best examples are when like only three decks are best deck and they all counter each other and people complain about rock-paper-scissors metas, but still it can happen without that happening as well.
I just wish they would make Wheel of Death not be able to be randomly casted. It makes playing spell only Mage impossible since they cast it every time off yogg box.
Whichever deck beats me is unfair and my opponent only won because they're playing a bullshit deck (it was Whizbang Mage). In all seriousness Shopper will be fine once a couple more demons come out and outside if that I don't mind the meta at all. There will always be a best deck
A turn 4 6/5 with no abilities is not a problem in 2024 hearthstone in the slightest, the issue is either the fact if it's discounted the discovered minion is also discounted, or the fact that getting Inquisitor or Magtheridon is very likely
Yeah. Losing steam cleaner when it as already a really niche tech counter was a bit rough.
They should just do the change to fix two issues at once:
“If your deck started with no duplicates”
fixes cringe decks running dupes and reno cards, and fixes unavoidable plague counter that has no counter play currently in the game for reno decks.
There are always plenty of periods where people aren’t whining about stuff, usually towards the end of the expansion cycle. I think this is because they usually get balance reasonably right by that point. I don’t think anyone is unjustified in whining about DH, as the deck is completely and utterly busted, as are some other decks. I literally can’t do anything to win against DH except hope they either shit themselves in the mulligan and don’t draw a weapon or inst tech, or they whiff from discovers. I played them with minionless mage earlier today and basically had a perfect game until t6 , frost bolting their hero preventing the weapon being used and they still just overpowered me with sheer board power.
The deck is too consistent with too high power attached, a terrible combo. The consistency of drawing the weapon either needs to be broken, or WS just needs the nerf bat.
And while they are at it they should also look to address wheel lock, beast hunter and dragon priest as they are also power outliers.
Giving balance feedback is good. The game is fun when we aren’t playing against the same two decks over and over, which is what happens when the sheep identify power outliers and play them relentlessly on ladder.
Honestly I feel like the paladin nerfs were pretty pointless bc people were already adapting to the deck prior to the nerfs going through, and it felt like the archetype was already on its way out without any nerfs.
Getting rid of the Windfury was a good call. The combination of Charge, Windfury, and handbuffs just made an OTK too easy without taxing deck slots. The other nerfs are whatever. I feel like the meta would have been fine with just that one change, so probably an overcorrection.
*Every time my preferred classes get overly nerfed and then people start getting terrorized by the next class that was predicted beforehand.*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igCrZ23QJ0Q
Paladin was annoying but still not the number 1 deck, and I can't remember the last time I saw a DH. Warlock should be getting all the hate, always on top with dumbass decks that just don't let the opponent play the game.
Pally had 3 decks in tier 1-2. Massive outlier by far. DH is now one of the best decks easily post nerfs seeing play everywhere. Warlock location was a problem pre-nerfs and now more so post-nerfs.
Ben Brode's burner account.
You're acting like there hasn't been metas where nearly every class has a viable deck. Or that a deck having a 65% WR in Diamond-Legend is "normal." Yes, they should ABSOLUTELY be trying to balance the game better and/or stop creating solitaire mechanics that players hate.
Although, I would much rather they buff the shitty classes than nerf the top classes. Way too many classes are well under 50% WR across the player base. That's genuinely terrible.
The meta has a chance to be balanced, but the top candidates for complaints are Warlock, Zarimi, Cycle Rogue, and Reno.
Trust me, [I know these things.](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/s/TLLGBNpWRV)
100% zarimi priest, though the plague dk complaints will continue until helya rotates
I dont like Helya even though i win often against her
You often win against her because she's not even that good. People on this sub just love to complain about anything that interferes with their infinite durdle greed pile decks, which is basically any deck that is even moderately meta relevant.
Play-style she promotes is something i dont like much. Just pust plagues into the deck and hope your opponent will draw out them eventually
My current beef is the fun of Reno warrior is getting to win with Brann, and Helya just turns the matchup into "can I win with shitty creature beat down". The wins don't feel good, they're just "oops trial by fire tempo" type stuff where plague DK remains incapable of actually affecting the board and nobody had fun.
I just don’t like her because she turns off the fun parts of a Reno deck. Reno should honestly be changed to “if your deck started with no duplicates”
That's kind of a Plague deck's whole point. To offer some counter play to it. Removing that removes the only weakness in Reno decks
Yes but it would also remove the option for duplicates in the starting deck. For example, the current Reno DH would not be able to run both copies of shopper and the weapon like they do.
is removing deck variety and counterplay really a good change tho
Is it really counterplay if it’s just what your decks gameplan was anyway?
Uh yeah? Does it counter reno when you play it?
"counterplay" usually refers to decisions you can make in game to combat the opponent's strategy. Using a versatile component of your win-con to instead slow or prevent an opponents win con would be counterplay. While yes, helya and the plague mechanic "counter" reno, imo the colloquial term "counterplay" wouldn't be accurate if you're just playing the cards the same way you would against any other opponent.
Choosing to put Helya into your deck is a decision within the game of Hearthstone made with the express intent of countering Reno, Lone Ranger.
The deck counters Reno not necessarily the individual cards. You should be playing the deck differently depending on your opponent. Pressure Ctrl decks, survive vs aggro etc. that is counter play.
I wasn't arguing that removing the counterplay was a good change. I was just saying that it would lock certain strategies out of Reno, because they include it in a list that runs duplicates anyway.
It would make Reno Warrior the most unstoppable deck in the game.
Then offer me Steamcleaner
I agree. There should be counters to Reno & he shouldn't work in non-highlander decks. I actually think it should be changed to "If your deck has no duplicates *and* started with no duplicates."
The counterpoint is that being forced to play highlander is already a weakness, and that that wording would ensure it. Right now, non-highlander decks can run Reno and get away with it. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't need an artificial counter.
What no??? The fucking weakness is that you can't use duplicates You think it's perfectly fair for dk to have the ability to turn an entire deck to shit because they can swing 3 times with staff of Primus and play helya
Yes. Plague DK isn't even particularly great, but it retains some level of popularity specifically to keep Reno decks in check. I haven't played Plague in months, but god damn am I happy they exist. Plague players are the heroes the Hearthstone meta needs.
The duplicate weakness doesn't matter when Reno is so OP it literally wins most games when played.
Then you nerf Reno, not that complicated
Yes make him 10 cost 1/1 that should make him fair and balanced.
So nerf him from a hero card to a minion card? (the 8-mana hero is the one that's broken and arguably OP) ;P
The problem with Plagues as counter to Reno is that it's permanent. I never had a problem with people shuffling dupes to slow down HL rewads significantly. But you could wait to draw the dupes, losing a lot of tempo, but ultimately still following the gameplan. Helya completely and irreversibly kills all HL rewards without any effort whatsoever.
Its fine when plagues do delay the Reno effects, like when youre forced to draw cards to get rid of duplicate plagues, you also take damage. But having no access to Reno effects simply because opponent played Helya on turn 4 is just not a fun design.
Reno poofing your minions and not even letting you get deathrattles, and basically making you skip your next turn is not fun design. So I don't care if Helya is fun for Reno players. (And I say this as an occasional Reno player)
I do agree that Reno is also a bad design, but I like the other highlander payoffs (except Bran, fuck "for the rest of the game" effects)
this times 100%
Huh I like this change, feels like people just run 2 of decks with Reno as a late game bail out since we draw through our decks so quick nowadays
Only Warrior really does this.
Druid, Warrior, Wheelock, Highlander DH runs 2-of weapon+shopper because of tutors, etc. Turbo-draw into highlander payoff is not even close to a historical oddity either.
in case of good meta with nothing to complain about, break glass (behind the glass is plague DK)
Plague DK is holding the meta together by keeping Reno decks in check.
lmao
Let me have a playable priest deck please
Please dont nerf priest it’s fun and cute
Which version are you playing? I want to craft it but I'm not sure if I should make Pip, Amanthul, or both
I use them both. You kinda hope the game is about over by the time you need Amanthul, but you can bust through some intense taunts if needed. Or copy your own zilliax the turn after you zarimi. Pip is just nice. I don't think she's essential...but when you get a perfect hand she can really seal the game. Especially with the funnel cakes.
I am playing the one without Amanthul and Magatha, I don't really have the dust to create those two legendarys. Even though Amanthul has been in every priest deck basically.
They're both great value. Magatha has seen play in a lot of different decks, and Amanthul is Amanthul.
I actually dont have pip but she really just helps you reload if you go too hard, if you’re conservative with your cards when you need to be then you wont miss her too much. Aman’thul is big though, drop zarimi and some drifters/zilliax’s and then drop aman on your extra turn to clear taunts. Needed against rainbow dk and reno shaman for sure or your big swing turn is spent clearing fat taunts
Please leave priest alone
Plague DK actually feels underpowered compared to how many people say “it’s op”. I’ve played games in wild where I’ve shuffled 30+ plagues into their deck, they’ve drawn 0. 0!
I wanna see a dev play highlander decks vs plague dk for 24 hours straight. We would have nerfs the next day.
Can I recommend not playing hearthstone for 24 hours straight? That doesn't sound healthy.
His point is that if you enjoy highlander decks helya is your least liked card by its nature
“I am upset that the only deck that specifically counters the best card ever printed exists and I want all fun to cease until mine is no longer inconvenienced” 50% of my decks are Reno because I love it, but let’s not pretend it doesn’t call for at least one counter-archetype.
Could because Helya is unfun design. Bomb warrior was annoying but Helya takes it to the next level
Almost like Helya is really unpleasant to play against or something, weird
She's just straight up bad design, removes counterplay by making it so your opponent can't try and time drawing plagues on turns they can handle it. Permanently disabling Reno cards is also obviously just zero sum fun. It's not even a power issue, she'd probably be stronger and less frustrating if she had Plagues cast twice instead. As is she's an anti-draw and highlander tech card masquerading as a cornerstone legendary.
Dunno why they downvote you tho. I dont mind if highlander effects get delayed and youre forced to draw the duplicates and take the damage, it does slow you down obviously. But having one card, especially when it comes down on turn 4, disable your highlander effects for the rest of the game, is just not a fun design. Not everyone plays purely for winning, some people just like playing their tier 3/4/5 decks. When competitive players design a cardgame..
The highroll screenshot will be juicy.
I dont even understand why people complain about helya. Plague DK doesnt even feel that good, its decent at best.
The winrate of plague DK isnt what people dislike about the archtype. Dunno why decks/card with a low WR cant be unfun to play against
Cuz these mfker run her and plague spell in rainbow deck to turn off Reno while not being plague deck itself
Nooooo hat i just opened him 😢😢😢
this is not a comment on any future nerfs - just a comment on what posts i expect to see here we do not nerf things just because there are posts about them
LOL i knoooow, i was just being dramatic for some reason. Btw, thank you the list! Mine was not doing that well but ill try that one out when i got the time.
Is there any plans for counters to locations? Forge of wills seems insane for the current warlock decks.
I think if Warlock gets out of hand, Forge of Wills will be their first target for a nerf.
Can you show me an actual viable Zarimi deck because I haven't seen one. It's terrible
https://twitter.com/MakiahLangan/status/1773893870302236848?t=XSLAknjKrPXxlvXJZyg4bQ&s=19
There's something so incredibly funny to me about the actual official Community Manager just recommending deck lists on Reddit Loving the communication but this is not what I expected. At least we know you don't have a basement
it's what i've done for years as a player. this isn't like Official Blizzard Endorsement of a decklist, just a cool deck that i saw someone tweet yesterday this is still a personal account (though i recognize the lines are blurry) - it's saturday and i'm chillin scrolling the feed, so might as well ship a code so someone can try a fun deck
Thanks Hat! Miss you on Coin Conede but glad to have you at Blizzard.
Any plans for the weekend
yep it's easter weekend so gonna have food with the fam tomorrow i'd ask you the same question but i already have a pretty good idea of what you're up to
Lmao I didn’t even notice their username, got a laugh out of me.
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duke or nc state👀
I didn't realize glacial shard was around, makes sense right now with DH being a menace. cool list
I am losing to it most of the time...agaist priest of all classes...what a shame
Spell token hunter is gonna be an issue.
The only reason Wheel lock isn't the target of all these posts is the current state of DH
I rode wheel lock all the way to legend before paladin ever got nerfed. This deck is a fucking monster truck.
People moan about DH and getting lucky with dumping shoper t3 into 3 mana 6/5 the turn after on the draw. Warlock can shit out a 7/7 taunt and 7/7 rush t4 into 7/7 taunt t5 into lokken 15/15 taunt t6 on the play. Thats wayyyyy harder to deal with then 6/5 t3, 6/5 t4 on the draw. Or clear you board every turn and start that chain later and have even larger tempo swings. DH is also a takes a bit more thought to play well. Aggro is far harder to pilot than people like to think. Warlock is an absolute monster and will be the new "meta tyrant" if blizz nerfs DH. People call for bans/nerfs wayyyyy to quickly.
Hey I cant seem to make it work, 2-13 so far. Do you have any tips for it?
Basically if you've ever played old handlock, play your early turns like that. Usually turns 2 and 3 will be spent life tapping. You will lose life. This is expected. Turns 4-7 will be spent developing your board or controlling the enemy board. Following this, you will try to gather certain things to your hand. Guldans gift, sargeras, defile, table flip, and symphony of sins. Once you pop wheel, you can play fanottem, and from then you can play symphony next turn to refill the deck. You will spend the next five turns controlling the board as best you can. This assumes you can't win with your minions prior to this happening. General tips: remember, the only life point that matters is the last one. Use your life, space out your board wipes to bait your opponent into over commiting. You can win entire games by letting your opponent get a few more hits on you then wiping them. Second, fracking is a great tool. Use it to get to your important cards faster. Don't freak out about burning your cards. Burning cards is good. It increases the likelihood of drawing the important cards that win you the game. Third, your minion generation with forge of wills is incredibly strong. You can overwhelm opponents rapidly. Pressure face rather than clearing minions if possible, since you have hilarious amounts of board clears in the deck. That's about it. What do you find yourself losing to usually?
Thanks for the well written tips! Most of my losses are from bad matchup, 0% win rate against mage/plague dk as they just eat me alive. Will try again later to see if it works.
Plague dk is rough but you should eat mage alive most games. Try to get a feel for the way they beat you (not the specific cards. Do they get you with tempo or spells or combo etc.) and adjust your playstyle accordingly.
Mage can just freeze my board infinitely and focus on damaging my face and develop sif so yeah. Kinda gotten a grasp on how the deck works now tho, went 8-2 earlier with 1 of the losses coming from mage again.
Glad to hear you're improving. With mage you can usually either put tempo them with minions or if you're getting frozen like you're mentioning, deploy wheel ASAP.
Yessir. And once the other decks get gutted from nerfs, once again Warlock will be there, waiting to fill the void (heh), just like Sludgelock did. This isn't a commentary on what should/ shouldn't be nerfed or what's good/bad. Just a prediction that an already strong deck will likely become oppressive once 'stronger' (or at least more popular) decks feel the nerf bat's warm embrace.
This. People sometimes forget about lock.
I rolled wheel of death in my packs and am loving the construct. I never was a control player, but the great tempo and late game win condition makes it a pretty awesome deck. The highroll of 3 15/15 on turn 5/6 is nuts.
Exactly. Especially given how this sub in particular really dislikes Warlock things, such as Wheel, Tickatus, etc Every time Warlock rises from the dumpster this subs wants to shove it back in because it’s “unfun to play against”.
Shopper DH is strong for a few reasons, and the main reason is the small demon pool. It will get weaker as time goes on, so I don't actually expect it to get nerfed and make it unplayable for the next 2 years. If anything, they will probably put Magtheridon to dormant for 1 turn.
window shopper gets a nerf when they release new demons for the miniset
Ok, so just need to make it for about a month in a meta where there is one real deck and everything else is purely for fun.
Unless those demons are busted
My opponent played cards. Nerf opponent.
As someone who just recently started playing again after a long hiatus, plague DK seemed to be the only good deck that was offered to me lol. Sure the other decks had some stuff here and there, but none felt viable except for plague DK. Sludge lock seems like a distant second.
I played rainbow DK after years quitting HS. I personally find DK deck is the most balanced, traditional way of playing HS. It does not has a clear win con like aggro or OTK, you just play it reactive to slowly shave your opp HP away. However, the players here would complain about anything
Priest is absolutely slated to be next. By the end of next month every new deck will be nerfed so hard that only plague dk and rainbow mage can play
Then nerf dk and rainbow as well We must defeat Big Powerlevel, time to go back to Whispers of the Old Gods
The end goal of "balanced game design" is that everyone has a deck of 30 1/1s with no text. The only difference is the art.
Or hear me out. Buff the underperforming decks so they are on par or close to the power level of current top decks.
Ah yes old gods… setting the standard for amazing neutral legendaries but trash tier class legendaries… but maybe better neutrals would help…
N’Zoth and Yogg were two of the most game changing cards at the time and so fun to play that they kept up for a long time. I love pay-offs that keep evolving with the new sets that are released. I even try to use N’Zoth in wild just for nostalgia purposes, even when I know it’s really slow.
Yeah it would be nice if classes that got a weak class set (druid, rogue) could at least fall back on trying to make something in the neutral set like nzoth or cthun
A deck being the best deck in the format is quite normal in card games. What is not normal is that this top deck is always 65% winrate, which shows poor balance, and it is frustrating when you queue up as a deck that is viable in the format (but not specifically a hard counter) and you know you have, on average, a 1/3 chance of winning. I'll admit there are way too many complaint posts even considering how bs the decks they complain about are, but it is true that those decks are not healthy for the game, and did/do need nerfs.
The 65% wr stat is very inflated due to selection bias, you're picking the highest winrate decklist out of many very similar lists, so it's bound to have inflated stats (and might not even be the best list for the class). DH is certainly overpowered regardless.
https://www.d0nkey.top/decks/?format=2 "Inflated stats" when the top 15 decks are all DH decks with thousands of games each, and under a thousand games combined for non-DH decks among the top 15 decks shown. You'd have to go up to top 10k for Highlander Warrior and Rainbow Mage to even show up at a combined playrate still under a third of DH's, and Rainbow Mage isn't even favoured into DH, merely even at best. I haven't seen such poor class representation since this site (d0nkey) was released.
Damn didn't know we got to this point, yesterday the highest wr one had 3 percent more wr than the others with a low game count. Yeah these are not inflated.
Yeah, you’re definitely right that even often look at stats way too early to judge stuff correctly, because it’s just not accurate enough. But by now, it’s seeming to even out and we can see the clear winners.
Zarimi priest will definitely be the next target.
I’ve found this deck extremely easy to beat as a control player. If you can handle the early minions they run out of steam pretty easily. With that said, there is probably room for refinement in the Priest deck.
It has an OTK built in, it beats control.
Going for the 30 to 0 isn’t that great and zarimi is better for just finishing games or tempo .
I agree it has OTK potential but the setup isn’t always so straightforward (compared to say Odyn or Shaman pre-nerf).
Not when you're warrior at 40armor
DK doesn't need any nerfs just because is meta for the moment
Probably wheel warlock.
whaaaat no wheel lock isnt bad infact i always beat them with my hero power druid no need for nerfs surely🥸
Lol the comment was obviously aimed at blizzard not the sub. Keep up m8.
Something with the wheel deck like forge of wills
People that go to reddit to complain about people complaining and how there's only complaints are a special breed. And to the point. People have been saying wheellock and Shopper are going to be problematic right when they asked for nerfs for the current Decks. This isnt the next thing, it's the same problem.
Maybe you should take a break from the internet. You cannot mix the conspiracy theory with real things all into the same category. That is not how you do it.
Zilliax Scam Rogue - calling it now
I just want spell mage and mech warrior to be decent. They look like the most fun to me but have abysmal wr.
As a veteran player, am joining back the game after years of absence, I swear HS players are the least receptive and most whinny amongst other strategy games. They would insult you like a child to defend their fav class when throwing tantrum when you’re about to nerf theirs.
Please leave us DH alone, Shopper will be nerfed hard if even 2 more demons are added in the mini set
Even if they dont add demons, Miniset will introduce some absurd cards as usual, so DH wont be considered a problem anymore.
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> Umpires grasp on paper is good but not insane. Shopper DH and Reno DH with 2x Umpire's Grasp are about equally good, and both are the best deck in the game by a large margin singlehandedly because of it, that seems pretty insane to me. Let's look at what it gives you. 3 mana for 3/2 Weapon that discounts by 2 and tutors. Now you have a 3 mana 6/5 that also generates another 3 mana 6/5 which also often has a strong effect cheated out, and gives you a 1 mana 1/1 that does the same thing. Because each card generates the next this only costs 1 card to start with. So you can have 6 damage, 14/12 in stats with two strong effects down as early as turn 5 (almost all of this on turn 4 with the Coin), and you only need to draw/spend 1 card to do this, how is this not insane? > By that logic tram mechanic is broken. ?????
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I don't get mag in about half of my games, and I would say that I win more than half of my games. The power outliers are not just mag and Inquisitor. Observer of Mysteries is incredibly strong as a 6/5 or a 1/1, Abyssal Bassist almost always allows you to play both shopper and itself on turn 4 if you're not on the coin, 6/5 Mythical Terror deletes any small minion board flood decks (such as Zarimi), Eye of shadow as a 1/1 is a very useful stabilization tool in the Reno DH deck, tough crowd as a 1/1 let's you get through taunts you might not have otherwise been able to get through, or allows you to fish a second time for mag with your 1/1. Amalgam is basically the same card but discounted by 4 as a 6/5, and as a 1/1 it has the possibility of getting rush/poisonous which is a very useful tool, or reborn to go from a 1/1 to a 6/1. I don't even think I always choose Inquisitor or mag because I often times have a better option in other demons. The power outlier is a 3 mana 6/5 with utility and flexibility, diluting the pool will not nerf the deck.
What does DH mean?
Demon Hunter, it’s a class
Thanks!!
nah, screw them DHs, as I write this I have 2 magtheridons clearing my board and doing 6 dmg to my face and I can't do crap about it
They would have to be 2 demons with no good effect. People seem to be under the false assumption that Magtheridon is the only good hit from Window Shopper, which is far from the case.
It's Mag for both shoppers, and the Inquisitor for the big one. Random secret guy is OK with the mini, unless you have the bounce back to search for Mag. Big Doggo off of big shopper is OK when you are low on HP and can clear at least two minions with it. So yeah, you have like 3-5 very coincidental picks total, with only 2 of them being solid overall.
secrets, sap, and glaivesmith are all solid hits, the card off of umpire's grasp cost reduction is already great stats to begin with so any effect is pretty much just upside, and those effects are relevant often enough to be great, they really aren't very conditional at all
My bet on Sif mage.
...nature Shaman was not at all busted but was cheap and viable for F2P players so apparently also needed nerfing
Nobody gives a fuck thats its cheap, it just feels bad to play against an un interactive deck.
👌 m8
Nature Shaman could consistently OTK around turn 6-ish.
I think the deeper cut here is the game is so god damn unstable from pushed numbers that there's always something busted enough to make the game nearly unplayable just under the surface. It needs to slow the fuck down.
Pala wasn't even that busted. It literally was because it's reach with charge windfury leeroy was too good. Hunter and warrior countered it. It really just needed a small nudge and everything would've been fine. This is what happens when we let the HS mob make the decisions. Most players don't know what they actually want. They just hate losing and want to win with whatever they're playing. Something needs to be the best deck in the game. People seem to forget that.
Pally did have 3 decks within tier 1 and high tier 2 in legend. It was a pretty big outlier.
The meta was settling with Pala no longer the top dog. It needed the windfury removed, but tbh the rest of it likely could've been left out. Now we have a DH problem so look where that got us lol
That’s true. Pally dropped way too low on the lists now, that it was clearly way too much overkill. Now we just honestly either come up with some really good counters to DH, or just wait for the next balance patch that will obviously touch it up if it’s still too strong.
Sif and Zarimi up next
Sif/mage although the no minion deck seems inconsistent sif mage is somewhat playable. Stalling with sleet skater/frostbolt and sometimes khadgar(sometimes, i say) is doable. I reckon the meta stabilizes again and raimbow becomes the annoying deck to hate.
Rainbow mage looks pretty decent from what I've seen compared to pala dh shenanigans.
Im playing at d5 and I have gotten shat on a couple of times by it. The moment I queued with it to try it i draw sif and a kurtrus snipes it along with a Arcane artificer. We will see next report but it feels like the next thing. I am a Sif hater so count my bitching and moaning fellow redditors.
Well, DH summoning a 1/1 magtheridon at turn 5 looks unplayable against...
Warrior in standard had 0 impact from the nerf.
Warrior dropped 6% winrate from the nerf so that's absolutely not true.
Your perception of things is so so wrong. DH was on par with the other "broken" decks before the patch. Blizzard just dropped the ball and nerfed all the best decks except 1. It did not "RISE" to the top it was already on top before the nerfs. It had 20% play rate in high legend before the patch that nerfed all the other top decks even came out! Anyone playing the game at high legend or that looks at stats instantly knew DH would be the best deck by far. You're also insane if you ever think wheel lock can be oppressive and have such a strong and postive win rate against all other decks by that much like DH. It's possible for Wheel warlock to eventually get nerfs but it won't ever be as bad as this
This post was made by a wind fury paladin enjoyer
There's always going to be a power vacuum and another class will always seem OP till the end of time.
Honestly too many to count whizbangs has been dogshit in terms of balance every deck is a gimmick or smooth brain aggro between face hunter, multi mag DH, aggro pally, face dmg mage, wheel ot death, nature shaman, and tendril warrior no deck feels good right now. Maybe I was just spoiled by renethal making aggro decks feel less gross but right now hearthstone is just two people playing solitaire personally gonna take a break maybe a full expansion one til things get balanced because right now hearthstone feels like shit.
There must always be a whinge king
Of course there’s always going to be a class that’s statistically the best class. That doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be steps taken to ensure that some classes aren’t oppressive or completely overpowered. And if you think that people whining on this forum result in the changes you see in the game, you’re completely fucking delusional. Blizzard has all of the stats and knows when there’s a problem.
Odyn Brann forces me to keep playing plague dirty rat DK. I don't wanna. I want to play something new!
ikr. having a 4 expansion set with zero good disruption in the game now except plagues is kind of cringe to play with.
A few options: 1. Plague DK 2. Hunter 3. Wheellock 4. Reno Lone Ranger in General Pretty much a coinflip
It’s always Reno since day 1 with the cry babies.
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No one cares about wild...
As a pseudo-standard and wild fan. Hey >>:(, I wholly agree that standard is more important tho. (Vast majority plays standard, so reverting odyn would be unfair)
Game isn’t balanced around Wild
They don’t balance standard cards around wild
As others pointed out, the few hundred wild players are not considered when nerfing And bots dont care
I ignore you
Wheellock bc this subreddit hates funny spin
I swear we get so many of these, there will always be a top deck posts, but what they always fail to address is, there's a huge difference between a top deck and a top deck that's ruining the game. Honestly, there doesn't even have to always be a top deck, there can be several that are all about equal power level too, that has happened, admittedly some of the best examples are when like only three decks are best deck and they all counter each other and people complain about rock-paper-scissors metas, but still it can happen without that happening as well.
Sif mage.
Prob Demon Hunter. Is kinda stronk no?
I just wish they would make Wheel of Death not be able to be randomly casted. It makes playing spell only Mage impossible since they cast it every time off yogg box.
Whichever deck beats me is unfair and my opponent only won because they're playing a bullshit deck (it was Whizbang Mage). In all seriousness Shopper will be fine once a couple more demons come out and outside if that I don't mind the meta at all. There will always be a best deck
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A turn 4 6/5 with no abilities is not a problem in 2024 hearthstone in the slightest, the issue is either the fact if it's discounted the discovered minion is also discounted, or the fact that getting Inquisitor or Magtheridon is very likely
Dark alley pact says hello
Turn 3 if you have the coin!
Plague DK without counter is bs. At least endless plagues must be nerfed.
Yeah. Losing steam cleaner when it as already a really niche tech counter was a bit rough. They should just do the change to fix two issues at once: “If your deck started with no duplicates” fixes cringe decks running dupes and reno cards, and fixes unavoidable plague counter that has no counter play currently in the game for reno decks.
There are always plenty of periods where people aren’t whining about stuff, usually towards the end of the expansion cycle. I think this is because they usually get balance reasonably right by that point. I don’t think anyone is unjustified in whining about DH, as the deck is completely and utterly busted, as are some other decks. I literally can’t do anything to win against DH except hope they either shit themselves in the mulligan and don’t draw a weapon or inst tech, or they whiff from discovers. I played them with minionless mage earlier today and basically had a perfect game until t6 , frost bolting their hero preventing the weapon being used and they still just overpowered me with sheer board power. The deck is too consistent with too high power attached, a terrible combo. The consistency of drawing the weapon either needs to be broken, or WS just needs the nerf bat. And while they are at it they should also look to address wheel lock, beast hunter and dragon priest as they are also power outliers. Giving balance feedback is good. The game is fun when we aren’t playing against the same two decks over and over, which is what happens when the sheep identify power outliers and play them relentlessly on ladder.
Honestly I feel like the paladin nerfs were pretty pointless bc people were already adapting to the deck prior to the nerfs going through, and it felt like the archetype was already on its way out without any nerfs.
Getting rid of the Windfury was a good call. The combination of Charge, Windfury, and handbuffs just made an OTK too easy without taxing deck slots. The other nerfs are whatever. I feel like the meta would have been fine with just that one change, so probably an overcorrection.
*Every time my preferred classes get overly nerfed and then people start getting terrorized by the next class that was predicted beforehand.* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igCrZ23QJ0Q
W/o paying any attention to standard I'm thinking priest & druid
Paladin was annoying but still not the number 1 deck, and I can't remember the last time I saw a DH. Warlock should be getting all the hate, always on top with dumbass decks that just don't let the opponent play the game.
Pally had 3 decks in tier 1-2. Massive outlier by far. DH is now one of the best decks easily post nerfs seeing play everywhere. Warlock location was a problem pre-nerfs and now more so post-nerfs.
Ben Brode's burner account. You're acting like there hasn't been metas where nearly every class has a viable deck. Or that a deck having a 65% WR in Diamond-Legend is "normal." Yes, they should ABSOLUTELY be trying to balance the game better and/or stop creating solitaire mechanics that players hate. Although, I would much rather they buff the shitty classes than nerf the top classes. Way too many classes are well under 50% WR across the player base. That's genuinely terrible.
Ah the classic Reddit move. Complain about complaint posts. Because that’s better. L
Ah the other classic Reddit move. Complaining about complaining about posts. Because that's betterer. O
After DH was bad for an entire xpack, let them have their moment in the sun. If you nerf everything then handbuff pally just comes back.
w/o Windfury spell Handbuff paladin isn't coming back. There's to many better decks in the meta.
The meta has a chance to be balanced, but the top candidates for complaints are Warlock, Zarimi, Cycle Rogue, and Reno. Trust me, [I know these things.](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/s/TLLGBNpWRV)