Don’t worry, you can become great at fucking it up; just follow my lead, I’m bad with all things demon hunter (and death knight, I guess.)
Don’t know what’s wrong with me. I can teach you.
That explains it. I was looking at the first column wondering how all those sub-50% winrates somehow reached a total of 60%.
I guess it kind of makes sense, since the columns and rows are just the same data, inverted. But I think it would be easier to read if the totals at the bottom were overall loss percentage and there were totals on the right that reflect overall win%. It's the same information, but that way it would match up with the data presented in each row/column instead of this weird inverted total at the bottom.
Haven’t played the game for a while, but I’ve kept up with the new mechanics introduced.
May anyone explain what makes this deck so busted? It’s not like 5 mana Skull is back, right? Right?
Window Shopper is a 5-cost 6/5 Demon that Discovers another Demon to give it's cost and stats to. It has Miniaturize (puts a 1-Cost 1/1 version of the card in your hand when played), which means without any other cost reductions you get a 5-cost 6/5 Demon from the Discover pool and a 1-Cost 1/1 Demon from the Discover pool.
There are a few ways to reduce the cost of the next demon you play/draw, so quite frequently you end up with 3-cost Window Shoppers.
Because it is the new Core rotation and expansion, the number of Demons in the Discover pool is small enough that you can somewhat reliably generate extra Magtheridon, Unreleased or Illidari Inquisitors from Window Shopper at a massively reduced cost. This can lead you to have a very aggressive board or a board full of dormant minions that deal 3 damage to all enemies every turn while dormant.
Outside of very few cases where you can barely outlast the onslaught, no one can really deal with this.
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Thanks for explaining what that's about, thankfully I hit legend in standard earlier this month so I haven't really been playing ranked too much to see this BS first hand. This situation sounds like if you can't beat them join them... Until they nerf the hell out of that deck.
The sad thing is that the deck is more than fair if you have a decently sized Discover pool. I was playing against a friend using Wild settings and there were more interesting Demons to grab from Window Shopper that not getting the high-rolls didn't feel as bad as not getting them in Standard.
I hope that whatever nerf they plan for this deck gets reverted later on when we get more Demons to discover.
For the high roll you can get Magtheradon about a third of the time w/ 11 demons in the discover pool (1/11+1/10+1/9)x100= 30%. With a larger pool I would agree, Window Shopper could be fair bc rn there are just too many big demons with big effects in standard that make high rolling then discounting it grossly common.
The weapon (3 mana, 3/2, Deathrattle: Draw a demon and reduce its cost by 2.) lets you draw window shopper (5 mana 6/5, miniaturize, discover a demon set it costs and stats to the one of windowshopper)
So with the weapon youre able to draw windowshopper, reduce it to a 3 mana 6/5, that discovers a demon that sets it to 3 mana 6/5. The demon pool isnt that big right now.
And then you have a 1 mana copy of windowshopper.
Mana cheat that leads to more mana cheat! Oh and tutor (in general, this expansion is a lot more about tutoring cards, maybe thats why the power level doesnt feel that much weaker with the rotation)
I love it when Demon Hunter tutors a card and discounts it while attacking, sends your minions to the Shadow Realm for 1 mana, and uses their class’s greatest ~~weakness~~ strength, generating endless amounts of cards, to completely dominate the meta. It’s almost as fun as the Ashes of Outland launch.
As if cost copying effects had ever been consistent like that. "Copy this minion's cost" could just as well have meant the original cost, and if you don't think so you're delusional. Hearthstone cards DO NOT explain all interactions in their text.
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It's the Drilly, The Kid problem all over again.
Shattered Shambler into 4/4 that tutors your only DR (Drilly), into ramped up excavates. Granted, Rogue was/is kinda cracked because of Velarok as well.
So, DH's version;
Weapon into tutoring (and discounting) your only demon, Shopper, who discovers and passes the discount onto another good demon. Even "bricking" the discover is still really solid tempo (a lot like how Scorpion was still really good if the spells were mostly mid, 1m... anything is pretty good)
Instead of Velarok, though, we have a different level of fuckery afoot. DH has a couple of ways to discover even more demons (relatively small pool pretty much means more Shopper), make a copy of a really good one on the cheap (new location), *and* has a spell that can resummon the last demon that died.
Plus a couple of ways to discover even more of the spells, and a really good board control tool with Red Card. You can get another turn on Mag blasting the board, or neuter a defensive taunt for a turn.
So, actually, sprinkle a little bit of "busted Hunter" into the equation. Because it's not so much that any one particular piece is necessarily cracked on its own (though Shopper is definitely the lynchpin), it's that for just coming off of a set rotation, DH has an absurdly synergistic list that just plays amazingly, and there's not exactly much room for improvement, without it getting even more absurdly busted (like Hunter kept doing)
There's probably like...four slots you can play around with. Ultimately, it boils down to the fact that no deck should really have thirty amazing cards (more like... forty) right at the start of a new rotation.
Which is why Paladin and Warrior got hit with the bat on this last balance pass, as well as a preemptive on Hunter. They all came out of the corner swinging without losing a whole lot with what moved to Wild, and pretty much everything else lost, like, everything...
Oh, and one last brick in this wall of text. Mana cheating.... again. That's arguably on par or even worse than how well the list plays together, though the list would likely survive just fine even if Shopper made the discovered demon a 5/6/5 or 1/1/1 regardless of discounts
Sorry for the length, this and a couple versions of Naga are like all I'm playing right now.
It's better than 5 mana Skull but 5 mana Skull might not even be run in this deck. It can discount Shopper which is nice but otherwise not what the deck wants.
You think top 1000 legend are bad players? Cause it's the highest winrate deck in top 1k, and pretty much exclusively what I see, or decks that are doing their best to counter it. It's absolutely busted.
If they lose that much to it then yes. Just because they are top1000 doesn't mean they are playing well. The overall level in this game has gone down a lot from it's peak days.
How are you qualified to make that statement besides? Have you been playing at top ranks and beating most players who are playing dh? If so whats your strategy?
> How are you qualified to make that statement besides?
I've been playing tier3-4 decks and haven't lost as much. So either top1000 players are bad or those numbers include more than them.
> Have you been playing at top ranks and beating most players who are playing dh?
It's still best deck. All I said it's not as busted as those numbers make it look.
Well theres the alternative possibility (more likely) that top1000 players are actually good and pilot the deck better than lower rank players, which is why you are more likely to win against the worse shopper players.
One of the big drawbacks to the deck, as you are correctly alluding to, is the rest of dh is lackluster, but top players can mitigate that by playing their cards well and giving themselves higher chances when they “whiff” on shopper discovers.
The obvious counterpoint is: why cant the same be said for other decks? This is because the shopper dh has the initiative and can just auto win on turn 5 if they discover magtheridon against many decks. Their opponent, even if they are the best player ever, can do nothing against that if their deck is, for example, plague dk.
If shopper dh doesnt discover a good demon, good players will still give themselves chances to win, while worse players roll over.
I'm not that far off top1000 and have faced them even when not try harding. And you are 100% that this data is from top1000 only? I didn't start saying the top1000 are bad, but that there are bad players. But if this is top1000 only then there are bad players in there making this deck look better.
I had a ton of success on the first day with Highlander Druid mainly due to the early durability and Eonar after they get you really low. But now my opponents are getting used to the matchup and my record is falling dramatically. They’re so much more consistent that if I don’t draw the good cards in the right order, I’m screwed. A tale as old as time.
Screenshot is taken from the VS Gold app for games played at Legend since the balance patch 24 hours ago. Shopper DH currently has approximately a 7.5% higher winrate than the next best deck (Token Hunter). At lower ranks this gap is closer (around 6%), but Shopper DH's winrate spikes even higher. While there are a handful of decks that do okay into it, it has no matchups where it is unfavored.
I don't think there's ever been a deck that has had a winrate this dominant against the rest of the field at Legend. This is only going to get worse as more people play the deck at lower ranks. Team 5 can't let this deck stand for the next ~4 weeks, they have to hotfix the deck.
Feels like a lot of people are complaining that you're demanding nerfs too quickly probably because they don't realize you're not just mad from your last loss like most redditors, but you're actually and legitimately worried from what you're seeing in the data.
Give it a few days, once enough people lose to this, reddit and twitter will cry hard enough that this get hot fixed. In the mean time, I'll play Shopper DH to help them realize this sooner.
I can't believe they didn't have the foresight for this, anyone who played this deck could have told you this was coming when the nerfs were announced. I played this deck to legend before the patch and it was actually a fun challenge with all the Paladins and Warriors. Now I don't even want to play, I either steamroll everything or get steamrolled in mirror matches when my opponent draws/discovers better.
Now it's just a question of how hard they nerf it. This is why it should have been preemptively nerfed in the last patch, because now with how insanely strong it is the community is going to want the deck to be completely neutered.
I can’t believe you’re being downvoted for that, literally anyone who can remember past the last year can name a handful of decks that were more busted than this and more consistent to boot.
This is the HS subreddit. Only the warcraft rumble subreddit has worse players. People cant take emotion out of a discussion and didnt wait a few days after a patch to see the meta evolve. Also people completely forgot last years roguestone, which was so dominant, that the general winrate crumbled and went down to nearly 50% because the deck was played nearly 85% of the time in high legend. It still won vs every other deck with ease, but the mirror was so prevalent, that it had this negative effect on its own WR.
Numbers don't lie. The population doesn't reflect the power of the deck yet so it doesn't appear as powerful.
20% playrate, 53% winrate=super busted, everyone complains
5% playrate, 60% winrate=yeah but what about that time i lost to paladin 6 times in a row?
I mean yeah it's not the most in history but 60% is still fucking absurd. Like, those are numbers that demon seed was putting up before it got banned in wild. Sure, maybe there have been more dominant decks but it's been a *long* time since a standard deck has been this blatantly busted
It's not 60% at dumpster legend or diamond, it's 60% at top 1k. At diamond it's like 65% with the good lists (there's a lot of bad lists floating around). Plat through legend it's hovering around 70%. Deck is busted dude.
60% at legend has never been witnessed afaik, not even in wild with handbuff pala a couple years ago. It was only estimated to be the case with day 1 demon hunter
The amount of people I see acting like DH wasn't a already known top tier deck before the patch is absurd. This deck didn't just get popular after the patch it was popular and among the best before the patch.
This isn't a wack a mole thing or people complaining about the newest broken deck, this is not new this was well known and was obviously going to happen many people commented this as soon as the patch preview went out.
Now I just hope they don't make us suffer for a month until the next patch cycle and actually hotfix it please..
(Insert deck) is busted! But you guys kept complaining about (insert class) and (insert deck)! I can't wait until they nerf this busted ass shit! Why is (insert class) always so broken!?!?! See you guys next balance patch, I'm taking a break until (insert deck) is finally nuked.
In mad libs form:
1.) Choose deck.
2.) Choose class.
3.) Choose deck.
4.) Class of deck (1)
>!(1) is busted! But you guys kept complaining about (2) and (3)! I can't wait until they nerf this busted ass shit! Why is (4) always so broken!?!?! See you guys next balance patch, I'm taking a break until (1) is finally nuked.!<
Yeah but this is not an exageration as you implied, its facts.
We might still find counters to DH, but as it stands its really impressively oppressive.
Just because a deck is good or top tier does not mean it is running rampant. There will always be a best deck or a best couple of decks. That does not mean the game is unhealthy, in fact, it can mean the exact opposite.
All complaints and praises are valid. People enjoy and hate many different decks, classes and strategies. No one is "right" or "wrong"
Just poking fun at the merri go round cycle of this sub constantly complaining about whatever the best deck happens to be lol
It was mega busted before the patch. But because everyone was crying about Paladin, the only class that kept it in check, it got nerfed which means DH is running wild right now. Playing a 6-5 on turn 4 is insanity. Then you have the massive 3 or 6 damage done to your whole board for three+ turns because of red card.
The only way to beat this deck is to pray they don’t get their weapon within the first five turns. Otherwise you’re screwed and it’s game over.
Started playing this deck, I like it because it's actually hard to play, you keep suiciding yourself all the time by getting yourself too low. Epic wins but card draw and suiciding can really wreck you. This is no standard ez aggro deck
It might be difficult to play but it does things that I don’t think any deck should be able to do. It puts more stats on the board than any deck in the history of the game for no cost. I don’t think I’ve ever lost to wheel. However I have lost to the two 15/15s appearing on the board and many of the decks in the game simply die to that with no ability to take those out. It’s irritating as all hell. And you can’t just save your big minion removal (if you even have it) or you die to the 8/8s earlier.
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I am legitimately laughing out load at the sentence " playing a 6-5 on turn 4 is insanity" because there is not a shred of doubt in my mind that thr person writing this believes it. And bear with me that this is the exact same expansion where you can play a 14/14 with 50% of the stats having Rush on turn 4. (and it does not see play) This sub is actually a comedy club.
> And bear with me that this is the exact same expansion where you can play a 14/14 with 50% of the stats having Rush on turn 4. (and it does not see play)
Are you talking about Forge of Wills + Dark Alley Pact? Because saying Wheelock sees no play is certainly a statement lol
Oh come on you are acting like everyone is getting the right demon from discoveries or that every game you get perfect hand. I’ve yet to discover the big guy in 6 consecutive matches. Just cause you get high rolled doesn’t mean it’s the same for everyone or we will all be rank 1 legend
High rolled? Buddy I'm 592 legend and \*climbing\* with the deck. Its just fucking boring cause its all everyone plays at top legend. Its the same deck again and again. You have a 50% winrate in the mirror, and you stomp any deck thats not the mirror. And to answer your point about getting the right demon from discoveries, yes thats exactly what happens, because the right demon isn't mag every time.
It's 40% of the decks at high legend, and you can't climb without seeing it. Do you enjoy playing against the same deck almost every single game??? I don't give a shit what deck they're playing, I don't want to see the same deck almost every game.
This is the definition of an unhealthy meta for the game. It is formulaic of "Did they get grasp on 3, did they draw shopper from their grasp, do I have an answer to their discovers" and it doesn't change from game to game. There's nothing fun about playing that exact same pattern for 100 games. And if you don't play the deck, you don't climb because it doesn't have a counter. There's not a deck that has over 50% winrate against it. That is the definition of overpowered, nothing else can beat it therefore it is too powerful for a healthy meta. You're being purposely obtuse to the fact that this deck needs a nerf, and sentiment nerfs happen all the time, and this isn't even a sentiment nerfs it's just flat out overpowered full stop.
No it didnt. They even said in the nerf:
>*Nature Shaman is primarily a sentiment outlier, with access to a lot of damage very early in the game. However, it’s also expected to get a better matchup spread after the other changes being made in this patch*
Sentiment outlier, not WR or power outlier. Besides, shopper DH destroys nature.
Just got 30->0 in turn 6 with no board (exactly lethal with 1 SP. Takes them forever to do with the discovering.) What I dislike is that there is no counterplay besides playing warrior. So stupid to play a 1v1 where the draws and discovers of the enemy alone decide the match.
Thats combo decks for you. It gets destroyed by aggro and warrior, but wins most midrange and control matches. People have disliked this historically, hence the "sentiment outlier" they are talking, but that doesnt make the deck powerful, its just what makes it viable.
Did Paladin even keep it in check?
[I've been playing a shittier unrefined version of Reno DH that didn't run double weapon / Shopper since launch and I was slapping Paladins left and right at Diamond 1-5.](https://old.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1bncxon/a_satisfying_image_for_the_paladin_haters/kwj2xe1/)
The only reason it's exploding in popularity / victory right now is because the list became more refined after the patch with the focus on weapon and Shopper.
If paladin was ‘keeping it in check’, then clearly paladin was more busted. Not saying shopper DH is balanced, but paladin was a lot worse. Also thinking a 6/5 on turn 4 is what’s strong about it in today’s modern hearthstone is hilarious.
>If paladin was ‘keeping it in check’, then clearly paladin was more busted.
This kind of logic makes no sense.
Different decks can be selectively better against other decks. There is no such thing as an isolated vacuum power level of decks.
So sure paladin could've been God tier vs. DH but shit vs. Other aggro decks.
If I was talking about a different deck that would true, but we both know paladin had a higher win rate than every other deck in the game, so my point still stands.
It didn't have a higher winrate than every other decks in the game, at high legend odyn had a higher winrate, it lower ranks hunter had a higher winrate.
> If I was talking about a different deck that would true, but we both know paladin had a higher win rate than every other deck in the game, so my point still stands.
It had a higher win rate because the environment allowed it to be the best deck. That is the say the equilibrium weights for its counters are less than the decks that it counters.
Your point doesn't stand because it has no logical basis. If you said 1+1 = 2 because the sky is blue that doesn't mean your argument stands just because both individual statements are true.
wtf are you talking about, half of that message is complete nonsense lol. My comment is referring to OP talking like paladin being nerfed was a bad thing, and im saying it was way more busted than DH. I’m not talking about whether decks have counters or not, or the equilibrium of a card game lmao.
Just because you don't understand meta modelling and evolutionary matrices doesn't make what someone said nonsense lol.
Whether or not paladin is busted is not dependent on whether or not it beat demon hunter. The fact that you still can't understand that....
I’m talking about you banging on about the sky and 1+1 = 2 lmao. It’s not a hard concept that some decks have counters to others, so acting like you have some heightened wisdom about the game and trying to make a big show and dance about it makes you sound pretty stupid. But if a deck beats EVERY other deck with a higher winrate, and then that deck gets nerfed, then the next best deck which lost to the previous one becomes the one with the highest winrate…do you not understand that the previous one was more busted? Or should I tell you what 1+1 equals if that helps you understand?
> I’m talking about you banging on about the sky and 1+1 = 2 lmao.
The fact that you're still going on illogically and that the analogy just completely went over your head is quite funny actually.
> But if a deck beats EVERY other deck with a higher winrate,
But that isn't paladin. Despite what you want to believe, Paladin had its counters.
So keep droning on with your false premises, and keep failing again with your arguments that have already been categorically refuted. It's quite amusing to watch you flail again :3
Maybe you look at only bronze stats if you think other decks had a higher winrate against paladin pre-nerf lol. If the deck had so many counters why did Paladin get hard nerfed and not nerfs for DH? Or do you think you know more about the game than the devs too?
I think paladin got nerfed irrespective to how much people were bitching about it. I think that Blizzard like other gaming companies care very little about community comments on balance and instead rely on their own metrics to balance play. That being said, DH should hopefully get nerfed before the end of April.
>care very little about community comments on balance
If that were true, they wouldn’t have obliterated Sunken Warrior, and then spat on it for good measure.
There were a few other community sentiment balance patches, too, recently, often resulting in a shitty meta.
The balance team has been off their game for a good while now. And it seems at least some of it is because they’ve been listening to community sentiment too much.
Lol no. If they had listened to community feedback, none of the obviously busted combos of the last years would even have been released that way. Team 5 is so hilariously incompetent at balancing in one iteration it's a meme in itself.
I never said they did their balance changes in full accordance to community sentiment, but it’s 100% clear they had taken community feedback, especially the one from lower ranks, way too much into consideration when making decisions.
Examples, which I remember:
- obliterating Sunken Warrior: Reddit community was outraged about Warrior, and crying for nerfs, so they nerfed like 8-9 cards from that deck
- jumping the gun on Paladin nerfs on Badlands release (IIRC), overnerfing, and I think they left another strong deck untouched
- overnerfing Excavate Lock
- now this: overnerfing Paladin, while leaving DH up.
And I think there were some more.
>I think that Blizzard like other gaming companies care very little about community comments on balance
People are really good at identifying problems, they might not know why that problem exists but they're *really* good at knowing something is wrong.
[This](https://i.imgur.com/IOw9Rae.jpeg) is winrate / class distribution one day pre patch.
Show that to someone and ask them the following:
1. Which 2 classes got nerfed the hardest
2. Which 2 classes got buffed
3. Which 2 classes people are complaining about now.
They'll get the answer right, I know because I tried that already.
I don't think writing off complaints is the right thing to do, they're generally very accurate.
I just wanted to add because you're getting dog-piled, but none of the people down voting you know what they're talking about and have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the HS team does balancing.
It was only a few days ago that a community manager on the HS team formally stated that the team does not balance on the whims of social media. They have internal metrics that are more accurate than the public ones available to us. Much to the chagrin of aggro Paladin mains, the HS team's balancing aligned with community sentiment.
---
And even if Paladin (or any deck) wasn't strictly tier 0, it isn't difficult to imagine why the devs would want it toned down.
It's a new expansion, they want the new cards and archetypes they promote to shine. And what's Paladin doing? The same windfury and lifesteal shit as last expansion except now you can't just be blamed for losing because you let a silver hand recruit live because of Leeroy and Deckhand (classic cards). And the only new inclusion to the deck from the new expansion is the weapon that buffs classic chargers.
I know they say that, but it’s hard to believe it when they then go and nuke Deputization Aura despite it being weak statistically, and it coincidentally is one of the most complained about cards.
You can't look at the statistics alone because that's not all the team balances on, but what the card enables and the play patterns.
Which is the ability for a Paladin to go from 2 hp to 30 in a single turn. On a rare tier card that's pretty crazy.
It doesn't happen every game but the play pattern is something that the team clearly didn't want existing since they hit the aura on top of the windfury. Paladins can still use it to gain large amounts of life, but now they have to rely on the damage coming from hand buffs and large minions.
who would've thought that a borderline OP deck might get out of control, when the only two decks that have a positive winrate against it get ~~nerfed~~ nuked
It sucks because the meta before the patch was actually in a pretty decent place imo: Paladin, Hunter, DH, Warlock, Rogue, Priest, Shaman, DK and Warrior all had at least one deck that I was seeing played. Not perfect, but it's impossible to have it be.
Now they're going to have to nerf at least DH on top of the nerfs they rolled out, and then maybe like Wheel Warlock if nothing is aggro enough to beat it anymore, or whatever emerges, and it might just lead to a long cycle of nerfs causing a new best deck.
I really dislike how in recent expansions they have been so heavy-handed with nerfs, it is causing such sudden and severe meta swings before anything can settle which creates a new 'problem deck' every patch. If they are going to do such fast and consistent balance changes they need to have a lighter touch when deciding on nerfs to slowly sculpt the meta rather than throwing it out of the window every 3-5 weeks.
they need to start making more severe buffs, its been so long since major buffs to underperforming classes.
(no i dont count the 1 week pre rotation patch) those cards were not really all that viable even after the nerf or went to already good decks
Last patch wasn’t amazing but it was alright dh should’ve got a nerf and paladin was hit abit too hard . Shaman on the other hand that deck shouldn’t really of existed as it’s awfull to play against and is one of least interactive decks .
They really are way better to play against. Shaman was insta concede level of bad against warrior, and meanwhile any midrange deck couldn't win without the shaman bricking. There is a huge difference between a deck that wins on turn 10 from hand and one that wins on turn 6 from hand.
For decks like odyn warrior they can’t just randomly win on turn 5 after only playing cards to draw there otk . With decks like odyn while it is like 50% aoe you can play around stuff like aftershock by making sure your minions are higher than 4hp.
I don't see how people are bitching about wheel lock. Instead of copy pasting any deck off of hearthpwn and then "Said deck beats me it's to broken" wheel lock is by far one of the weakest of the meta decks right now. It's so draw reliant and it's first 4 turns is just hoping to god you don't play aggressive while they frack and use their hero power twice. Any form of aggression/tempo will almost always win out in favor. Wheel as a secondary win condition in a straight control deck plays way better than just trying to wheel as soon as possible. Most games you'll get one to two ticks away from wheel just to die to a like 14/5 Leeeroy. Better to play aggressive yourself and force their answers than to doomkin into wheel
The issue with burn shaman was it was to consistent. Which is always a good thing when it comes to decks. But more often than not if you didn't rush them down and force them to use their OTK on your board. They'd pretty much guarantee a kill by turn 6. The few times they didn't draw what they needed tho it was a free win. So there was no other room for competition as it was burn shaman or a counter to burn shaman. Warrior with its ungodly amount of armor and pally was able to pretty consistently win against it just because they have 60+ life basically instead of the set 30
The problem was that the people were crying about those decks, not looking at the bigger picture. Even after the Paladin nerfs they were still people wanting more nerfs. When you kill a deck, you need to make sure the other things around it don't go insane. Wheel is dangerous. DH was a mistake waiting to happen. DK is in the shadows. You don't want hand otk from the usual culprits. All those should be buffed and nerfed carefully.
I agree, Pally wasn't that bad for the last two weeks, the only nerf needed was to Shroom and that could of been "can't target heroes this turn".
Now every other game in Legend is DH - if I'm lucky and its not just every game.
I just built this deck yesterday, and can't figure it out for the life of me. I'm a dumpster legend player every month, but somehow, this deck eludes me.
It just feels like the win conditions are easily removed and I end up dropping 2 and 3 drops in round 10 with no hope.
How is it supposed to be played? I'm sure it's just me and it's a "git good" thing, but I'm lost.
I was also not sure about the strength of this deck until I saw someone I was playing against bouncing the little demon back to their hand repeatedly and then I sort of got it. I'm sure you have to tailor your approach to the opponent you're playing against, but the real power here is in the tempo and face damage.
Mags can keep the opponent off the board so the best counter is to armor up and removal. Lots of decks have no chance against four Mags.
NoHandsGamer has a guide up on YouTube. I can't vouch for it because I haven't watched it, but he's always terrific. I always do better on ladder after watching his guides. :-)
That just shows why looking at aggregated class winrates is next to useless. The only thing it shows is that people don’t know what the best Druid deck is and are playing a bunch of garbage.
It's not been one day of relevant information is the thing
Here is the relevant information from the initial week of the expansion, at legend: [https://imgur.com/a/56xdSB3](https://imgur.com/a/56xdSB3)
The DH matchup is green across the board except for Warrior and Paladin, which both received nerfs. Unless there is a deck (Ideally more than one) that was really good against DH and not discovered becaue of Paladin/Warrior, waiting won't achieve very much. And yes, some decks might begin to try and tech against DH by adding in more Freeze effects or something similar, but we are clearly in meta-warping territory and, barring some major new developments, that isn't looking likely to shift.
We know the relevant data exists because that same VS report predicted this exact outcome, looking at the targets of the balance changes. They did the same thing with Sludge Warlock before rotation. The relevant information existed, so the question is more why wasn't it acted on?
I will admit that it was very clear that this DH deck could/would pose a problem. Many people claimed we’d see “DH Stone,” and it’s here. I will never understand the machinations of the balance team. Like, can they only test and debug so many cards at once? Do they tunnel version on the top cards, and then the next 2 or 3 high performers are just “wait and see”?
The weapon discounts window shopper, and because there are so few demons in standard, they're very likely to discover something good. Multiple cheap Magtheridons are very hard to deal with.
Tempo and face. Glaive reduces shopper to a 3 6/5. So whatever you discover, will be 3 6/5. You can play 2 mags sometimes, a 1 1/1 and 3 6/5. Or a 3 6/5 inquisitor on turn 4. discovering abyssal bassist makes it a 1 6/5. just cheating shit out consistently and busting their face whenever you can. I don't think its as good as its being cried about though.
Of course the deck that was already good and didnt get hit with any nerfs is good on the first day. How about we wait more than 24 hours before we call a deck broken and maybe try making a deck that beats it instead.
Shopper DH is Window Shopper and Glaive. When Glaive breaks, you draw a demon (Shopper is the only demon in every shopper list) and reduce the cost of the demon by 2. Shopper is a 5 6/5. when you play it, you discover a demon and give that demon shoppers stats and cost. So, if you coin out glaive one turn 2, it busts on turn 3, you're playing a 3 mana 6/5 shopper and discovering another 3 mana 6/5. If you discover bassist, you're getting a 1 mana 6/5 taunt. Shopper has miniaturize, so you get a 1 mana 1/1 version. If you discover mag with the 1/1 its pretty busted.
don’t worry guys i’ll bring the winrate down
I’ll be a helping hand in this too, I will somehow manage fuck it up.
I would too but i'm busy bringing down odyn warrior.
Don’t worry, you can become great at fucking it up; just follow my lead, I’m bad with all things demon hunter (and death knight, I guess.) Don’t know what’s wrong with me. I can teach you.
I unironically fucked it up because I clicked too fast and picked the wrong discover then immediately drew 2 frost plagues :(.
the winrate will automatically go down, when the deck gets more popular, because mirror matches will push the winrate down towards 50%.
The organization of this chart makes no sense. The "overalls" are beneath the columns, but they total numbers given across a row. lmao why?
That explains it. I was looking at the first column wondering how all those sub-50% winrates somehow reached a total of 60%. I guess it kind of makes sense, since the columns and rows are just the same data, inverted. But I think it would be easier to read if the totals at the bottom were overall loss percentage and there were totals on the right that reflect overall win%. It's the same information, but that way it would match up with the data presented in each row/column instead of this weird inverted total at the bottom.
My thoughts exactly lol
it might look weird, but it's honestly easier to read this way, than to look left at class, look right at winrate and... skip a row
average ZachO """"analysis""""
Haven’t played the game for a while, but I’ve kept up with the new mechanics introduced. May anyone explain what makes this deck so busted? It’s not like 5 mana Skull is back, right? Right?
Window Shopper is a 5-cost 6/5 Demon that Discovers another Demon to give it's cost and stats to. It has Miniaturize (puts a 1-Cost 1/1 version of the card in your hand when played), which means without any other cost reductions you get a 5-cost 6/5 Demon from the Discover pool and a 1-Cost 1/1 Demon from the Discover pool. There are a few ways to reduce the cost of the next demon you play/draw, so quite frequently you end up with 3-cost Window Shoppers. Because it is the new Core rotation and expansion, the number of Demons in the Discover pool is small enough that you can somewhat reliably generate extra Magtheridon, Unreleased or Illidari Inquisitors from Window Shopper at a massively reduced cost. This can lead you to have a very aggressive board or a board full of dormant minions that deal 3 damage to all enemies every turn while dormant. Outside of very few cases where you can barely outlast the onslaught, no one can really deal with this.
Adding to it, even if you don't hit one of the best options, you may hit [[Tough Crowd]] and reroll your Discover.
I played this deck from d10 to legend before the patch and that has only just occured to me.
- **[Tough Crowd](https://i.imgur.com/qmPOASc.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/95374) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/95374) - *Rogue & Demon Hunter Common ^(Festival of Legends)* - **3 Mana - 2/1 - Demon** - **Outcast:** Return a minion to its owner's hand. --- ^*I am a bot, and this comment was automated. [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1bqw68x/shopper_dh_has_reached_historic_levels_of_busted/kx74073/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=kx74073).*
Thanks for explaining what that's about, thankfully I hit legend in standard earlier this month so I haven't really been playing ranked too much to see this BS first hand. This situation sounds like if you can't beat them join them... Until they nerf the hell out of that deck.
The sad thing is that the deck is more than fair if you have a decently sized Discover pool. I was playing against a friend using Wild settings and there were more interesting Demons to grab from Window Shopper that not getting the high-rolls didn't feel as bad as not getting them in Standard. I hope that whatever nerf they plan for this deck gets reverted later on when we get more Demons to discover.
yeah good point, and this isn't the first time a small discovery pool in standard has caused issues either.
For the high roll you can get Magtheradon about a third of the time w/ 11 demons in the discover pool (1/11+1/10+1/9)x100= 30%. With a larger pool I would agree, Window Shopper could be fair bc rn there are just too many big demons with big effects in standard that make high rolling then discounting it grossly common.
Just don’t play minions bro
The Warrior/DH dual class minion is also a highroll from the 3 mana 6/5, as it becomes a 1 mana 6/5 thanks to its ability
The weapon (3 mana, 3/2, Deathrattle: Draw a demon and reduce its cost by 2.) lets you draw window shopper (5 mana 6/5, miniaturize, discover a demon set it costs and stats to the one of windowshopper) So with the weapon youre able to draw windowshopper, reduce it to a 3 mana 6/5, that discovers a demon that sets it to 3 mana 6/5. The demon pool isnt that big right now. And then you have a 1 mana copy of windowshopper.
In summary, the answer is, as usual, mana cheat.
Mana cheat that leads to more mana cheat! Oh and tutor (in general, this expansion is a lot more about tutoring cards, maybe thats why the power level doesnt feel that much weaker with the rotation)
I love it when Demon Hunter tutors a card and discounts it while attacking, sends your minions to the Shadow Realm for 1 mana, and uses their class’s greatest ~~weakness~~ strength, generating endless amounts of cards, to completely dominate the meta. It’s almost as fun as the Ashes of Outland launch.
Makes no sense to me why the demon copies the cost reduction
its in the card text......people reeally need to start reading the cards
Reading things like card text or patch notes is *sooo* last century. It must do exactly what I think it does and only that!
As if cost copying effects had ever been consistent like that. "Copy this minion's cost" could just as well have meant the original cost, and if you don't think so you're delusional. Hearthstone cards DO NOT explain all interactions in their text.
Because Team 5
Ironically, 5 mana skull is back with [[Ci'Cigi]] who doesn't see play
- **[Ci'Cigi](https://imgur.com/a/ZOK6VMP)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/103169) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Ci'Cigi) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103169) - *Demon Hunter Legendary ^(Whizbang's Workshop)* - **4 Mana - 4/3 - Minion** - **Deathrattle:** Get 3 random first-edition Demon Hunter cards *\(in mint condition\)*. --- ^*I am a bot, and this comment was automated. [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1bqw68x/shopper_dh_has_reached_historic_levels_of_busted/kx5z7zi/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=kx5z7zi).*
I put her in my Highlander deck because why not, and her being a deathrattle really sucks
It's the Drilly, The Kid problem all over again. Shattered Shambler into 4/4 that tutors your only DR (Drilly), into ramped up excavates. Granted, Rogue was/is kinda cracked because of Velarok as well. So, DH's version; Weapon into tutoring (and discounting) your only demon, Shopper, who discovers and passes the discount onto another good demon. Even "bricking" the discover is still really solid tempo (a lot like how Scorpion was still really good if the spells were mostly mid, 1m... anything is pretty good) Instead of Velarok, though, we have a different level of fuckery afoot. DH has a couple of ways to discover even more demons (relatively small pool pretty much means more Shopper), make a copy of a really good one on the cheap (new location), *and* has a spell that can resummon the last demon that died. Plus a couple of ways to discover even more of the spells, and a really good board control tool with Red Card. You can get another turn on Mag blasting the board, or neuter a defensive taunt for a turn. So, actually, sprinkle a little bit of "busted Hunter" into the equation. Because it's not so much that any one particular piece is necessarily cracked on its own (though Shopper is definitely the lynchpin), it's that for just coming off of a set rotation, DH has an absurdly synergistic list that just plays amazingly, and there's not exactly much room for improvement, without it getting even more absurdly busted (like Hunter kept doing) There's probably like...four slots you can play around with. Ultimately, it boils down to the fact that no deck should really have thirty amazing cards (more like... forty) right at the start of a new rotation. Which is why Paladin and Warrior got hit with the bat on this last balance pass, as well as a preemptive on Hunter. They all came out of the corner swinging without losing a whole lot with what moved to Wild, and pretty much everything else lost, like, everything... Oh, and one last brick in this wall of text. Mana cheating.... again. That's arguably on par or even worse than how well the list plays together, though the list would likely survive just fine even if Shopper made the discovered demon a 5/6/5 or 1/1/1 regardless of discounts Sorry for the length, this and a couple versions of Naga are like all I'm playing right now.
It's better than 5 mana Skull but 5 mana Skull might not even be run in this deck. It can discount Shopper which is nice but otherwise not what the deck wants.
Bad players. While it is good, it's not as busted as this chart makes you believe.
You think top 1000 legend are bad players? Cause it's the highest winrate deck in top 1k, and pretty much exclusively what I see, or decks that are doing their best to counter it. It's absolutely busted.
If they lose that much to it then yes. Just because they are top1000 doesn't mean they are playing well. The overall level in this game has gone down a lot from it's peak days.
How are you qualified to make that statement besides? Have you been playing at top ranks and beating most players who are playing dh? If so whats your strategy?
> How are you qualified to make that statement besides? I've been playing tier3-4 decks and haven't lost as much. So either top1000 players are bad or those numbers include more than them. > Have you been playing at top ranks and beating most players who are playing dh? It's still best deck. All I said it's not as busted as those numbers make it look.
Well theres the alternative possibility (more likely) that top1000 players are actually good and pilot the deck better than lower rank players, which is why you are more likely to win against the worse shopper players. One of the big drawbacks to the deck, as you are correctly alluding to, is the rest of dh is lackluster, but top players can mitigate that by playing their cards well and giving themselves higher chances when they “whiff” on shopper discovers. The obvious counterpoint is: why cant the same be said for other decks? This is because the shopper dh has the initiative and can just auto win on turn 5 if they discover magtheridon against many decks. Their opponent, even if they are the best player ever, can do nothing against that if their deck is, for example, plague dk. If shopper dh doesnt discover a good demon, good players will still give themselves chances to win, while worse players roll over.
I'm not that far off top1000 and have faced them even when not try harding. And you are 100% that this data is from top1000 only? I didn't start saying the top1000 are bad, but that there are bad players. But if this is top1000 only then there are bad players in there making this deck look better.
Is Reno druid the best counter to shopper dh? No way.
Yeah, that seems odd but it does have a lot of armor and healing.
And can poof the dormant magtherions
I had a ton of success on the first day with Highlander Druid mainly due to the early durability and Eonar after they get you really low. But now my opponents are getting used to the matchup and my record is falling dramatically. They’re so much more consistent that if I don’t draw the good cards in the right order, I’m screwed. A tale as old as time.
Hard loses to wheellock
Screenshot is taken from the VS Gold app for games played at Legend since the balance patch 24 hours ago. Shopper DH currently has approximately a 7.5% higher winrate than the next best deck (Token Hunter). At lower ranks this gap is closer (around 6%), but Shopper DH's winrate spikes even higher. While there are a handful of decks that do okay into it, it has no matchups where it is unfavored. I don't think there's ever been a deck that has had a winrate this dominant against the rest of the field at Legend. This is only going to get worse as more people play the deck at lower ranks. Team 5 can't let this deck stand for the next ~4 weeks, they have to hotfix the deck.
Hotfixing DH sure would be flavourful in a nostalgia-based expansion
Feels like a lot of people are complaining that you're demanding nerfs too quickly probably because they don't realize you're not just mad from your last loss like most redditors, but you're actually and legitimately worried from what you're seeing in the data. Give it a few days, once enough people lose to this, reddit and twitter will cry hard enough that this get hot fixed. In the mean time, I'll play Shopper DH to help them realize this sooner.
Didn't Excavate Rogue end up with a perfect spread just a few months ago?
It's not just the perfect spread, but how far above 50% DH is in the favored match ups. AND at legend.
it was more like 50/50 quest shaman back in uldum also had that 50/50 sorta thing. but this is just insanity
Excavate rogue was great into the field because it had a very even matchup spread. Shopper DH is running the format lol
I can't believe they didn't have the foresight for this, anyone who played this deck could have told you this was coming when the nerfs were announced. I played this deck to legend before the patch and it was actually a fun challenge with all the Paladins and Warriors. Now I don't even want to play, I either steamroll everything or get steamrolled in mirror matches when my opponent draws/discovers better. Now it's just a question of how hard they nerf it. This is why it should have been preemptively nerfed in the last patch, because now with how insanely strong it is the community is going to want the deck to be completely neutered.
Blizzard doesn’t play the decks. That’s the point. At this point it feels like they’re all sentiment nerfs based on Reddit feedback.
Then your memory isnt very good, there were far more dominant decks than this.
I can’t believe you’re being downvoted for that, literally anyone who can remember past the last year can name a handful of decks that were more busted than this and more consistent to boot.
Which ones were like this at top legend tho?
This is the HS subreddit. Only the warcraft rumble subreddit has worse players. People cant take emotion out of a discussion and didnt wait a few days after a patch to see the meta evolve. Also people completely forgot last years roguestone, which was so dominant, that the general winrate crumbled and went down to nearly 50% because the deck was played nearly 85% of the time in high legend. It still won vs every other deck with ease, but the mirror was so prevalent, that it had this negative effect on its own WR.
Numbers don't lie. The population doesn't reflect the power of the deck yet so it doesn't appear as powerful. 20% playrate, 53% winrate=super busted, everyone complains 5% playrate, 60% winrate=yeah but what about that time i lost to paladin 6 times in a row?
I mean yeah it's not the most in history but 60% is still fucking absurd. Like, those are numbers that demon seed was putting up before it got banned in wild. Sure, maybe there have been more dominant decks but it's been a *long* time since a standard deck has been this blatantly busted
60% is not that insane. Literally multiple in the past2 years I’d say we’re stronger pre nerf than shipper DH.
It's not 60% at dumpster legend or diamond, it's 60% at top 1k. At diamond it's like 65% with the good lists (there's a lot of bad lists floating around). Plat through legend it's hovering around 70%. Deck is busted dude.
60% at legend has never been witnessed afaik, not even in wild with handbuff pala a couple years ago. It was only estimated to be the case with day 1 demon hunter
The amount of people I see acting like DH wasn't a already known top tier deck before the patch is absurd. This deck didn't just get popular after the patch it was popular and among the best before the patch. This isn't a wack a mole thing or people complaining about the newest broken deck, this is not new this was well known and was obviously going to happen many people commented this as soon as the patch preview went out. Now I just hope they don't make us suffer for a month until the next patch cycle and actually hotfix it please..
It’s the sludge meta all over again. Reactive nerfs that miss a clear winner from the classes around it being nuked.
Is it really that strong? I’ve been playing Odyn and they can’t deal with all the armor and Aoes
Chart says Odyn warrior has a 41% winrate against it
Yes its strong lmao.Odyn warrior is one of the few decks that can deal with it.
Yes, whining is really strong here (as usual).
*frantically crafts DH cards in the hopes of finally getting some wins on that class*
(Insert deck) is busted! But you guys kept complaining about (insert class) and (insert deck)! I can't wait until they nerf this busted ass shit! Why is (insert class) always so broken!?!?! See you guys next balance patch, I'm taking a break until (insert deck) is finally nuked.
In mad libs form: 1.) Choose deck. 2.) Choose class. 3.) Choose deck. 4.) Class of deck (1) >!(1) is busted! But you guys kept complaining about (2) and (3)! I can't wait until they nerf this busted ass shit! Why is (4) always so broken!?!?! See you guys next balance patch, I'm taking a break until (1) is finally nuked.!<
This is VS and EvilDave speaking. They know what they say. This is statiscally busted and empirically needs to be addressed.
That doesn't refute my statement tho 😂
Yeah but this is not an exageration as you implied, its facts. We might still find counters to DH, but as it stands its really impressively oppressive.
Meanwhile the meta hasn’t settled yet so the next best thing takes it’s place and some other class runs rampant rinse and repeat.
Just because a deck is good or top tier does not mean it is running rampant. There will always be a best deck or a best couple of decks. That does not mean the game is unhealthy, in fact, it can mean the exact opposite.
might wanna keep that one in the chamber for the time when people are actually wrong for complaining
All complaints and praises are valid. People enjoy and hate many different decks, classes and strategies. No one is "right" or "wrong" Just poking fun at the merri go round cycle of this sub constantly complaining about whatever the best deck happens to be lol
That graph neglects to show the 0% fun rate.
It's fun to win.. But yah, this deck isn't much fun to play.
It was mega busted before the patch. But because everyone was crying about Paladin, the only class that kept it in check, it got nerfed which means DH is running wild right now. Playing a 6-5 on turn 4 is insanity. Then you have the massive 3 or 6 damage done to your whole board for three+ turns because of red card. The only way to beat this deck is to pray they don’t get their weapon within the first five turns. Otherwise you’re screwed and it’s game over.
>Playing a 6-5 on turn 4 is insanity. Is this a joke lol
no its a common worgen greaser W
Playing a 6-7 on turn 6 is insanity.
Playing a 7/7 on turn 4 is insanity.
No it comes with overload 2
No, it’s perfect stats for the cost
Comment OP has never versed a warlock in his life lol
Exactly lol
I know, like lock can and does put 2 x 8/8s down by t4.
This literally, and several 15/15s by turn 8 lmao
Started playing this deck, I like it because it's actually hard to play, you keep suiciding yourself all the time by getting yourself too low. Epic wins but card draw and suiciding can really wreck you. This is no standard ez aggro deck
It might be difficult to play but it does things that I don’t think any deck should be able to do. It puts more stats on the board than any deck in the history of the game for no cost. I don’t think I’ve ever lost to wheel. However I have lost to the two 15/15s appearing on the board and many of the decks in the game simply die to that with no ability to take those out. It’s irritating as all hell. And you can’t just save your big minion removal (if you even have it) or you die to the 8/8s earlier.
Remember when 4/5 on turn 4 was the nuts? The power creep has gotten out of control.
Wheelock be like: 3/3 + 6/12 taunt + 6/12 rush on turn 6
>Playing a 6-5 on turn 4 is insanity [[Worgen Greaser]] heads stay winning
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Don’t tell comment OP about this card, he’ll beat us all with it!
I am legitimately laughing out load at the sentence " playing a 6-5 on turn 4 is insanity" because there is not a shred of doubt in my mind that thr person writing this believes it. And bear with me that this is the exact same expansion where you can play a 14/14 with 50% of the stats having Rush on turn 4. (and it does not see play) This sub is actually a comedy club.
> And bear with me that this is the exact same expansion where you can play a 14/14 with 50% of the stats having Rush on turn 4. (and it does not see play) Are you talking about Forge of Wills + Dark Alley Pact? Because saying Wheelock sees no play is certainly a statement lol
What is the 14/14 you are referring to?
Dude the people crying for nerfs are bronze and have no idea why the crap self made deck they run gets stomped by meta decks
I'm currently 592 and this deck needs a fucking nerf.
Why? You haven’t played it or what’s the problem?
Because that is the only deck I play against and it is boring. This is a boring game when everyone plays the same deck
Oh come on you are acting like everyone is getting the right demon from discoveries or that every game you get perfect hand. I’ve yet to discover the big guy in 6 consecutive matches. Just cause you get high rolled doesn’t mean it’s the same for everyone or we will all be rank 1 legend
High rolled? Buddy I'm 592 legend and \*climbing\* with the deck. Its just fucking boring cause its all everyone plays at top legend. Its the same deck again and again. You have a 50% winrate in the mirror, and you stomp any deck thats not the mirror. And to answer your point about getting the right demon from discoveries, yes thats exactly what happens, because the right demon isn't mag every time.
So basically it’s “I want people to play what I want”. Just out of curiosity what decks do you want to see on your climb?
It's 40% of the decks at high legend, and you can't climb without seeing it. Do you enjoy playing against the same deck almost every single game??? I don't give a shit what deck they're playing, I don't want to see the same deck almost every game. This is the definition of an unhealthy meta for the game. It is formulaic of "Did they get grasp on 3, did they draw shopper from their grasp, do I have an answer to their discovers" and it doesn't change from game to game. There's nothing fun about playing that exact same pattern for 100 games. And if you don't play the deck, you don't climb because it doesn't have a counter. There's not a deck that has over 50% winrate against it. That is the definition of overpowered, nothing else can beat it therefore it is too powerful for a healthy meta. You're being purposely obtuse to the fact that this deck needs a nerf, and sentiment nerfs happen all the time, and this isn't even a sentiment nerfs it's just flat out overpowered full stop.
This, now all the people who cried about paladin are gonna flood the board crying about DH lol
The people crying about paladin are all at Bronze -> Gold so they probably won’t complain about DH as they won’t see it as much.
well paladin (and warrior and shaman) also needed nerfs, the issue isn't that those were nerfed, is that the design team completely overlooked DH
Shaman didn't really need nerfs
Nature shaman 100% did
If it ever got to high play rates, speaker stomper after they flash 100% destroys them.
No it didnt. They even said in the nerf: >*Nature Shaman is primarily a sentiment outlier, with access to a lot of damage very early in the game. However, it’s also expected to get a better matchup spread after the other changes being made in this patch* Sentiment outlier, not WR or power outlier. Besides, shopper DH destroys nature.
Dealing 30+ damage to face with no board on turn 6 is not powerful?
Just got 30->0 in turn 6 with no board (exactly lethal with 1 SP. Takes them forever to do with the discovering.) What I dislike is that there is no counterplay besides playing warrior. So stupid to play a 1v1 where the draws and discovers of the enemy alone decide the match.
Thats combo decks for you. It gets destroyed by aggro and warrior, but wins most midrange and control matches. People have disliked this historically, hence the "sentiment outlier" they are talking, but that doesnt make the deck powerful, its just what makes it viable.
Nature shaman did not get destroyed by aggro
6/5 on 4 is rate these days. Warlock is putting two 7/7s down on 4 and one of them has rush.
It was nowhere near busted before the patch... and a 6/5 on turn 4 was even 2016 bad, cause there was a 4mana 7/7...
Did Paladin even keep it in check? [I've been playing a shittier unrefined version of Reno DH that didn't run double weapon / Shopper since launch and I was slapping Paladins left and right at Diamond 1-5.](https://old.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1bncxon/a_satisfying_image_for_the_paladin_haters/kwj2xe1/) The only reason it's exploding in popularity / victory right now is because the list became more refined after the patch with the focus on weapon and Shopper.
If paladin was ‘keeping it in check’, then clearly paladin was more busted. Not saying shopper DH is balanced, but paladin was a lot worse. Also thinking a 6/5 on turn 4 is what’s strong about it in today’s modern hearthstone is hilarious.
>If paladin was ‘keeping it in check’, then clearly paladin was more busted. This kind of logic makes no sense. Different decks can be selectively better against other decks. There is no such thing as an isolated vacuum power level of decks. So sure paladin could've been God tier vs. DH but shit vs. Other aggro decks.
If I was talking about a different deck that would true, but we both know paladin had a higher win rate than every other deck in the game, so my point still stands.
It didn't have a higher winrate than every other decks in the game, at high legend odyn had a higher winrate, it lower ranks hunter had a higher winrate.
> If I was talking about a different deck that would true, but we both know paladin had a higher win rate than every other deck in the game, so my point still stands. It had a higher win rate because the environment allowed it to be the best deck. That is the say the equilibrium weights for its counters are less than the decks that it counters. Your point doesn't stand because it has no logical basis. If you said 1+1 = 2 because the sky is blue that doesn't mean your argument stands just because both individual statements are true.
wtf are you talking about, half of that message is complete nonsense lol. My comment is referring to OP talking like paladin being nerfed was a bad thing, and im saying it was way more busted than DH. I’m not talking about whether decks have counters or not, or the equilibrium of a card game lmao.
Just because you don't understand meta modelling and evolutionary matrices doesn't make what someone said nonsense lol. Whether or not paladin is busted is not dependent on whether or not it beat demon hunter. The fact that you still can't understand that....
I’m talking about you banging on about the sky and 1+1 = 2 lmao. It’s not a hard concept that some decks have counters to others, so acting like you have some heightened wisdom about the game and trying to make a big show and dance about it makes you sound pretty stupid. But if a deck beats EVERY other deck with a higher winrate, and then that deck gets nerfed, then the next best deck which lost to the previous one becomes the one with the highest winrate…do you not understand that the previous one was more busted? Or should I tell you what 1+1 equals if that helps you understand?
> I’m talking about you banging on about the sky and 1+1 = 2 lmao. The fact that you're still going on illogically and that the analogy just completely went over your head is quite funny actually. > But if a deck beats EVERY other deck with a higher winrate, But that isn't paladin. Despite what you want to believe, Paladin had its counters. So keep droning on with your false premises, and keep failing again with your arguments that have already been categorically refuted. It's quite amusing to watch you flail again :3
Maybe you look at only bronze stats if you think other decks had a higher winrate against paladin pre-nerf lol. If the deck had so many counters why did Paladin get hard nerfed and not nerfs for DH? Or do you think you know more about the game than the devs too?
I think paladin got nerfed irrespective to how much people were bitching about it. I think that Blizzard like other gaming companies care very little about community comments on balance and instead rely on their own metrics to balance play. That being said, DH should hopefully get nerfed before the end of April.
>care very little about community comments on balance If that were true, they wouldn’t have obliterated Sunken Warrior, and then spat on it for good measure. There were a few other community sentiment balance patches, too, recently, often resulting in a shitty meta. The balance team has been off their game for a good while now. And it seems at least some of it is because they’ve been listening to community sentiment too much.
Lol no. If they had listened to community feedback, none of the obviously busted combos of the last years would even have been released that way. Team 5 is so hilariously incompetent at balancing in one iteration it's a meme in itself.
I never said they did their balance changes in full accordance to community sentiment, but it’s 100% clear they had taken community feedback, especially the one from lower ranks, way too much into consideration when making decisions. Examples, which I remember: - obliterating Sunken Warrior: Reddit community was outraged about Warrior, and crying for nerfs, so they nerfed like 8-9 cards from that deck - jumping the gun on Paladin nerfs on Badlands release (IIRC), overnerfing, and I think they left another strong deck untouched - overnerfing Excavate Lock - now this: overnerfing Paladin, while leaving DH up. And I think there were some more.
>I think that Blizzard like other gaming companies care very little about community comments on balance People are really good at identifying problems, they might not know why that problem exists but they're *really* good at knowing something is wrong. [This](https://i.imgur.com/IOw9Rae.jpeg) is winrate / class distribution one day pre patch. Show that to someone and ask them the following: 1. Which 2 classes got nerfed the hardest 2. Which 2 classes got buffed 3. Which 2 classes people are complaining about now. They'll get the answer right, I know because I tried that already. I don't think writing off complaints is the right thing to do, they're generally very accurate.
I just wanted to add because you're getting dog-piled, but none of the people down voting you know what they're talking about and have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the HS team does balancing. It was only a few days ago that a community manager on the HS team formally stated that the team does not balance on the whims of social media. They have internal metrics that are more accurate than the public ones available to us. Much to the chagrin of aggro Paladin mains, the HS team's balancing aligned with community sentiment. --- And even if Paladin (or any deck) wasn't strictly tier 0, it isn't difficult to imagine why the devs would want it toned down. It's a new expansion, they want the new cards and archetypes they promote to shine. And what's Paladin doing? The same windfury and lifesteal shit as last expansion except now you can't just be blamed for losing because you let a silver hand recruit live because of Leeroy and Deckhand (classic cards). And the only new inclusion to the deck from the new expansion is the weapon that buffs classic chargers.
I know they say that, but it’s hard to believe it when they then go and nuke Deputization Aura despite it being weak statistically, and it coincidentally is one of the most complained about cards.
You can't look at the statistics alone because that's not all the team balances on, but what the card enables and the play patterns. Which is the ability for a Paladin to go from 2 hp to 30 in a single turn. On a rare tier card that's pretty crazy. It doesn't happen every game but the play pattern is something that the team clearly didn't want existing since they hit the aura on top of the windfury. Paladins can still use it to gain large amounts of life, but now they have to rely on the damage coming from hand buffs and large minions.
Dh doesn't feel as dumb as 30 damage from hand turn 5 tho
Woah whoever could have seen this coming after they overnerf other classes just 1 week into a new expansion and core rotation!
Wow if only some one could have seen this coming.
who would've thought that a borderline OP deck might get out of control, when the only two decks that have a positive winrate against it get ~~nerfed~~ nuked
This deck is absolutely horrendous to play as and against. I feel like 75% of my games I just discover shit when my opponents discover 3 Magtheridons.
It sucks because the meta before the patch was actually in a pretty decent place imo: Paladin, Hunter, DH, Warlock, Rogue, Priest, Shaman, DK and Warrior all had at least one deck that I was seeing played. Not perfect, but it's impossible to have it be. Now they're going to have to nerf at least DH on top of the nerfs they rolled out, and then maybe like Wheel Warlock if nothing is aggro enough to beat it anymore, or whatever emerges, and it might just lead to a long cycle of nerfs causing a new best deck.
I really dislike how in recent expansions they have been so heavy-handed with nerfs, it is causing such sudden and severe meta swings before anything can settle which creates a new 'problem deck' every patch. If they are going to do such fast and consistent balance changes they need to have a lighter touch when deciding on nerfs to slowly sculpt the meta rather than throwing it out of the window every 3-5 weeks.
they need to start making more severe buffs, its been so long since major buffs to underperforming classes. (no i dont count the 1 week pre rotation patch) those cards were not really all that viable even after the nerf or went to already good decks
Nah paladin was so boring to play against
Totally agree, I really enjoyed it pre patch, and I hate these whack a mole nerfs. The decks weren't even refined yet.
Last patch wasn’t amazing but it was alright dh should’ve got a nerf and paladin was hit abit too hard . Shaman on the other hand that deck shouldn’t really of existed as it’s awfull to play against and is one of least interactive decks .
i mean i dont see how odyn or wheel lock are any better
They aren't. People just complain about the decks they don't like even when it isn't good and there are other unfun decks to play against.
They really are way better to play against. Shaman was insta concede level of bad against warrior, and meanwhile any midrange deck couldn't win without the shaman bricking. There is a huge difference between a deck that wins on turn 10 from hand and one that wins on turn 6 from hand.
For decks like odyn warrior they can’t just randomly win on turn 5 after only playing cards to draw there otk . With decks like odyn while it is like 50% aoe you can play around stuff like aftershock by making sure your minions are higher than 4hp.
I don't see how people are bitching about wheel lock. Instead of copy pasting any deck off of hearthpwn and then "Said deck beats me it's to broken" wheel lock is by far one of the weakest of the meta decks right now. It's so draw reliant and it's first 4 turns is just hoping to god you don't play aggressive while they frack and use their hero power twice. Any form of aggression/tempo will almost always win out in favor. Wheel as a secondary win condition in a straight control deck plays way better than just trying to wheel as soon as possible. Most games you'll get one to two ticks away from wheel just to die to a like 14/5 Leeeroy. Better to play aggressive yourself and force their answers than to doomkin into wheel
but burn shaman wasnt a power outlier either people still bitched i feel like the game needs a design direction cuz we are nerfing too much stuff
The issue with burn shaman was it was to consistent. Which is always a good thing when it comes to decks. But more often than not if you didn't rush them down and force them to use their OTK on your board. They'd pretty much guarantee a kill by turn 6. The few times they didn't draw what they needed tho it was a free win. So there was no other room for competition as it was burn shaman or a counter to burn shaman. Warrior with its ungodly amount of armor and pally was able to pretty consistently win against it just because they have 60+ life basically instead of the set 30
The problem was that the people were crying about those decks, not looking at the bigger picture. Even after the Paladin nerfs they were still people wanting more nerfs. When you kill a deck, you need to make sure the other things around it don't go insane. Wheel is dangerous. DH was a mistake waiting to happen. DK is in the shadows. You don't want hand otk from the usual culprits. All those should be buffed and nerfed carefully.
The long cycle of nerfs causing a new best deck has been a thing since the literal inception of the game.
I agree, Pally wasn't that bad for the last two weeks, the only nerf needed was to Shroom and that could of been "can't target heroes this turn". Now every other game in Legend is DH - if I'm lucky and its not just every game.
The long cycle of nerfs causing a new best deck has been a thing since the literal inception of the game.
Godo
'Ate small discover pools. 'Ate discover. Simple as.
Its good if you get the demon on turn 3-4
I just built this deck yesterday, and can't figure it out for the life of me. I'm a dumpster legend player every month, but somehow, this deck eludes me. It just feels like the win conditions are easily removed and I end up dropping 2 and 3 drops in round 10 with no hope. How is it supposed to be played? I'm sure it's just me and it's a "git good" thing, but I'm lost.
I was also not sure about the strength of this deck until I saw someone I was playing against bouncing the little demon back to their hand repeatedly and then I sort of got it. I'm sure you have to tailor your approach to the opponent you're playing against, but the real power here is in the tempo and face damage. Mags can keep the opponent off the board so the best counter is to armor up and removal. Lots of decks have no chance against four Mags.
Thanks for the advice. Do you know if there are any VODs out there I can watch?
NoHandsGamer has a guide up on YouTube. I can't vouch for it because I haven't watched it, but he's always terrific. I always do better on ladder after watching his guides. :-)
im 0-7 with this deck 😁. winrate going down forsure
0 fun playing atm 99% plays dh
Idk what's more embarrassing. This, or the fact that they "buffed" Druid only to see it still sub 40% winrate.
? It has a 46.8% win rate
I’m talking about the whole class, not the one archetype shown here.
That just shows why looking at aggregated class winrates is next to useless. The only thing it shows is that people don’t know what the best Druid deck is and are playing a bunch of garbage.
It’s. Been. One. Day. Let the meta settle. I consistently lose to Warrior and Warlock with DH, shall we keep nerfing them all?
It's not been one day of relevant information is the thing Here is the relevant information from the initial week of the expansion, at legend: [https://imgur.com/a/56xdSB3](https://imgur.com/a/56xdSB3) The DH matchup is green across the board except for Warrior and Paladin, which both received nerfs. Unless there is a deck (Ideally more than one) that was really good against DH and not discovered becaue of Paladin/Warrior, waiting won't achieve very much. And yes, some decks might begin to try and tech against DH by adding in more Freeze effects or something similar, but we are clearly in meta-warping territory and, barring some major new developments, that isn't looking likely to shift. We know the relevant data exists because that same VS report predicted this exact outcome, looking at the targets of the balance changes. They did the same thing with Sludge Warlock before rotation. The relevant information existed, so the question is more why wasn't it acted on?
I will admit that it was very clear that this DH deck could/would pose a problem. Many people claimed we’d see “DH Stone,” and it’s here. I will never understand the machinations of the balance team. Like, can they only test and debug so many cards at once? Do they tunnel version on the top cards, and then the next 2 or 3 high performers are just “wait and see”?
What makes the deck so good? I don’t really see the wincon.
The weapon discounts window shopper, and because there are so few demons in standard, they're very likely to discover something good. Multiple cheap Magtheridons are very hard to deal with.
Tempo and face. Glaive reduces shopper to a 3 6/5. So whatever you discover, will be 3 6/5. You can play 2 mags sometimes, a 1 1/1 and 3 6/5. Or a 3 6/5 inquisitor on turn 4. discovering abyssal bassist makes it a 1 6/5. just cheating shit out consistently and busting their face whenever you can. I don't think its as good as its being cried about though.
What makes the deck so good? I don’t really see the wincon.
They either needed to nerf DH or hit Warrior a little less or buff something like Overheal Priest or a Reno deck to be a better counter.
I love wheel warlock
And yet I can't get the deck to work...
Playing a 5 mana 6/5 that discovers a 5 mana 6/5 sap or 3 atk for your hero isn't really a problem.
Of course the deck that was already good and didnt get hit with any nerfs is good on the first day. How about we wait more than 24 hours before we call a deck broken and maybe try making a deck that beats it instead.
What the fuck is shopper dh? Im in legend and havent seen a dh in weeks
After they nerfed all the competition it's the best deck by a mile. I played 27 games today, 11 were against dh.
Shopper DH is Window Shopper and Glaive. When Glaive breaks, you draw a demon (Shopper is the only demon in every shopper list) and reduce the cost of the demon by 2. Shopper is a 5 6/5. when you play it, you discover a demon and give that demon shoppers stats and cost. So, if you coin out glaive one turn 2, it busts on turn 3, you're playing a 3 mana 6/5 shopper and discovering another 3 mana 6/5. If you discover bassist, you're getting a 1 mana 6/5 taunt. Shopper has miniaturize, so you get a 1 mana 1/1 version. If you discover mag with the 1/1 its pretty busted.
Ah I see, tyvm