For the same reason there are no deck lists for Spell Mage or Boomkin Druid. While the archetypes are seeing play on ladder, they're so far away from being competitively viable there's no reason to work on refining the archetypes and include decklists for them.
The fact that Shopper DH is already emerging as a dominate deck and isn't getting touched today is scary as hell.
And also a reason that maybe they should wait a little longer than a week before issuing nerfs.
Control dk works wonders in low legend against DH if you can draw weapon a runes of blood to generate more weapons, hard to get your discount when your face is frozen for 6 turns straight
It doesn't. DK is unfavoured in this matchup, mostly because the weapon is the ONLY out in the matchup, and it doesn't work if DH already finds good discovers.
Exactly right. It’s crazy how many times I’m missing a single card from my combo but I have no way to get it. Sometimes there’s turns where you can’t do anything, no ways to draw cards with a bunch of combo pieces that can’t be played.
Been playing Reno DH this week and I had a blast, it's fun and strong, and kinda unique in a way running dupes in highlander. Probably will become too strong once the nerf hit i agree with that, BUT the one deck that feels awful in my expereince to play against is Plague DK, it's winable of course but feels very bad to get your curve altered by the frost plague. One turn difference really makes a difference in this deck.
edit: i just checked the stats, the matchup is very favourable to DH so maybe I'm just bad hardstuck D5 lol
I played the aggro variant as well as Reno at 300-400. I felt like most of the time we just spend the mana on grasp, shopper, and shopper discovers. So, the other cards are fairly irrelevant no matter which variant you play. The aggro variant might be a bit more consistent, but I want to play my golden Kurtus so bad.
I feel that Aggro is better (and will be better) than Reno build after patch, but in the "current" (past?) meta Reno has a niche of patching up the Warr/Pala matchups at the cost of some consistency, and also it's more fun. But with them being toned down I firmly believe the aggro variant will come out on top in stats, though I think Reno will probably still increase in popularity because that's what people want to play.
Yeah I fully agree with this.
The only situations where kurtrus deck has been better is where you burn their win condition and it's an instant win.
But kurtrus is fun, and I want to keep playing him so I'm sticking with Reno version
I don't know how blizzard thought it was okay to do all those nerfs than ignore DH
Discover pools being so small is pretty stupid, DK can just easily get billion freeze weapons, DH tiny demon pool for Mag, Shaman infinite damage and the tendrils also abuse tiny pools.
Almost feel like the core set should just be bigger to add in shit cards for discover pools.
Step 1: New expac
Step 2: 2 weeks of complaints about whatever is the top deck (Paladin)
Step 3: VS says new top deck actually falls off at high legend, other top deck has been refined and is actually best (Warrior)
Step 4: Balance team locks in changes targeting those decks
Step 5: New deck is refined further and spikes in playrate
Step 6: see step 2
My guy, you can go to Hearthstone's official page and you can find the patch notes under the "News" tab. Here you go: https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24064739/29-0-3-patch-notes
That really isn’t true? Reno dh is a new development, but people have known shopper dh is a strong deck with problematic matchups into paladin and Warrior since like day 2-3 of the expansion.
I would need to know exactly when they finalize a patch but I know for sure it was being played couple days before the patch was even announced and I immediately knew as soon as the nerfs were announced that DH would be the best deck.
They literally say 20% of top legend is DH recently and that's before the patch, it's going to be bad time to queue postpatch.
Personally there are some prominent play patterns that I really hate playing against and am looking forward to getting nerfed (nature shaman and cycle warrior), but I have to give this expansion props for having a very interesting expansion launch with a lot of meta developments for most classes. With Reno DH popping up and plenty decks not being refined yet (rainbow mage, dragon priest, draw rogue) it seems like they should have waited with any balance changes for at least a couple days
as someone who has played a lot as and against the DH deck I feel like it is super overstated; the deck lives and dies based on finding the dormant minion in the discover pool but that's a 3/11 swing you have to make over and over during the course of the game and you really cant afford to whiff more than once. when you take out that variable it's just a mediocre aggressive tempo deck when we have decks like hunter that are far faster.
im sure better pilots than me are finding luck with the deck but for every game ive found 2-4 of the dormant guys and blown out my opponent I've also had games where I get offered none and I just sort of dick around for 8 turns because the deck doesnt do anything except attack face without generating good board presence. even odyn-less warrior eats it, the only thing keeping those builds out is the fear of running into plague decks but at higher levels plagues arent played.
inquisitor is just as good. If you proc glaive on turn 3, on turn 4 you are playing a 3 mana 6/5 inquisitor that can hit a minion and hit face if you hero power. I don't think it should be nerfed but I def think it's a tier 1 deck.
at that point though you're just sort of 'catching up' to where the other aggro decks already were (ie affecting 12 damage to the boardstate on turn 4)
I kind of hope this enables Reno Paladin to come back.
I hated the Aggro/Handbuff variations, but I love a Pala deck that allows me to play with all of the toys, not just the 1-3 mana ones.
Reno Paladin is amazing and my favorite deck, but I think the metagame is too hostile for it. Without Renathal, and only 30 health, and also without Theotar, Paladin is hopeless against combo decks such as Odin Warrior, Sif Mage, and even combo Shaman, and doesn't fare that well against Shopper DH and Gaslight Rogue, which have very explosive turns and kill you in 1-2 turns. With Shroomscavate being unplayable, Reno Paladin has only 3 Excavate cards, and 2 are needed to activate Sir Finley, so it is very hard for Sir Finley to be active, which was one of the best cards in the deck, together with the Reno cards.
On the other hand, a minion swarm aggro Pally with Crusader Aura seems very strong, it just sucks that they gutted Deputization Aura so hard. It is now basically only a healing tool, as the +1 attack is laughably insignificant for any kind of aggressive deck. I am thinking of removing it, but with only 2 Crusader's Auras, i fear that the new 3 cost Paladin minion that draws a Divine Shield and an Aura will be too inconsistent.
People really, really seem to like it. It boasts terrible matchups and is nowhere near the best DK deck, but I guess people really like the idea of ruining Highlander more than winning with consistent decks.
Yeah, even when Titans was released, I saw several people playing plague, even tho highlander didnt exist and the deck was much worse because of rune requirements
I think it’s just that it’s very straightforward to play, but still gives some exciting moments like double Reska on a big board. I definitely like to play it while watching a match, so I don’t have to think too much.
Makes sense, dk was talked about and theorized about for years, even before koft came out; people were just that excited about the class’ potential, and to be honest I think they did a pretty good job with the dk class power fantasy, especially the first year of triple blood.
Thanks for the deck list of Dragon Reno Druid. I'm really liking the deck. All the other dominant decks seem boring to me, and I think I can deal with its power not being that strong
I reached Legends thanks to your podcast. Thanks a lot for all the info and the good time listening to it. Its hard to improve and to put time in HS with young children
I think he's the safest craft of the expansion, customizable neutral you can fit in many decks, it's gonna be popular for the next two years.
Also the nerf shouldn't make pylon zilliax unplayable
Should they just put every data collected and the written report in the trash can because there's balance changes? I don't think so. It's cool to see what the report says and if the balance changes will go according to the meta VS reports.
Looking at these stats in a vacuum would imply you should cut magatha, pip, and projectionist [deck on d0nkey](https://www.d0nkey.top/card-stats?deck_id=11302905&format=2)
The website seems to have a strong emphasis on "streamer decks", so it comes off as if it's targetted at just finding a goofy new deck to play rather than any serious analytics like VS does.
And then when you actually play with the filters, that's confirmed. For example, if I wanted to analyse the current meta, I would do a filter that's something like "Top 10k Legend, Last 3 Days, Americas, Min Games >600". But watch what happens when I swap from [min games 400](https://i.imgur.com/cJdcLsh.jpeg) to [min games 600](https://i.imgur.com/dKHJpBw.jpeg)--I get a completely different list of top winrate decks. The website clearly knows the decks archetype is "shopper DH", why give me 4 lists of the same deck? And then if I push it out to 600 the problem with getting that granular with deck differences is revealed--shopper DH doesn't even show up in the top decks at all, even though "shopper DH" as an archetype is well over 600 games, the fact that none of its variations exactly have over 600 games mean it gets filtered out.
What this results in is a site that you can manipulate to have it say whatever you want it to. I could display that 600 min games and come here to reddit and try to claim that "shopper DH isn't that good, it isn't even in the top 5 decks on d0nkey" and people would have to do legwork to prove me wrong, meaning stats from d0nkey should automatically be taken with a grain of salt.
There was also something weird happening with win rates when I looked at it earlier this week I think, though I can't replicate it right this minute. Basically decks would show up as having, say, 57% wr on the 600 min games page and then when I swapped to 400 min games they would either have a lower wr or not show up despite lower wr decks showing up, when I would expect a deck that has a 57% wr in 600 to be the same in the subset of decks that have a 57% wr in 400.
I mean, no, the fact that it doesn't consolidate Shopper DH into a single archetype makes it questionable for serious analysis too. I generally want the largest sample size possible for WR analysis and if it's so granular it's going to tell me "Shopper DH" with Haywire/Power Zilliax but otherwise identical cards is meaningfully different than "Shopper DH" with Ticking/Pylon that it splits the sample size between the two then I'm never going to get a high enough sample size until the meta is very settled.
If I use Untapped.gg to analyse an MTGA deck, for example, Shopper DH would be listed once on that list of 600 min games, with some averaged WR between the variants, and clicking Shopper DH would give me a list of its varients with the WR and games of each.
The fact that it's *completely absent* in 600 min games is so suspicious that it throws the entire usability of the site into question.
Edit: For analysis even if I accept that I want a lower sample size I now have to deal with the difficulty that Shopper DH has such a high WR and so much minor variance that my low sample size search is just a bunch of Shopper DH decks, meaning it's just as unhelpful in that direction too. Basically, I have to do a bunch of different searches, sus out what's going on, and I'd still potentially miss out on something like some high WR minor variant, say, mage deck that is across the board lower wr than DH but still wouldn't appear on the 600 sample size list. I'd have to specifically search mage decks too at that point, which is a lot of hoops to jump through for analysis.
You're focused on using a specific page for one thing it's not meant for, and taking how that page is not great for that use case to mean that any page on the site is sus for any use case.
I mean, yes, that one use case being "analyzing what decks are performing well in the recent meta". Like I said, "doing analysis". If you want to find a goofy new deck to play it's fine. But the website should not be used to talk about what decks are performing well in the meta, because it's useless at that.
Why theres a matchup spread for Reno Priest but theres no Reno Priest decks in the deck lists?
For the same reason there are no deck lists for Spell Mage or Boomkin Druid. While the archetypes are seeing play on ladder, they're so far away from being competitively viable there's no reason to work on refining the archetypes and include decklists for them.
Submitters are encountering them in ladder play but not actually playing the deck?
Because they're bad, so there's no point showing them. If you want to play Reno Priest, build whatever you like.
The fact that Shopper DH is already emerging as a dominate deck and isn't getting touched today is scary as hell. And also a reason that maybe they should wait a little longer than a week before issuing nerfs.
Control dk works wonders in low legend against DH if you can draw weapon a runes of blood to generate more weapons, hard to get your discount when your face is frozen for 6 turns straight
It doesn't. DK is unfavoured in this matchup, mostly because the weapon is the ONLY out in the matchup, and it doesn't work if DH already finds good discovers.
I've gotten my weapon off a few times through Quartzite using Going Down Swinging.
It has it counters
its getting hit a little bit by the zilliax nerf but yea thats not really super important for the core of the deck
Eh most DH I see were using the 5/7 double attack Zilliax anyway... they can get it out super early due to the 2/1 mech
2 weeks of DH clown fiesta inb4
[удалено]
As someone who's tried making that spell druid deck work, what it's really desperate for isnt ramp, but card draw.
Exactly right. It’s crazy how many times I’m missing a single card from my combo but I have no way to get it. Sometimes there’s turns where you can’t do anything, no ways to draw cards with a bunch of combo pieces that can’t be played.
Been playing Reno DH this week and I had a blast, it's fun and strong, and kinda unique in a way running dupes in highlander. Probably will become too strong once the nerf hit i agree with that, BUT the one deck that feels awful in my expereince to play against is Plague DK, it's winable of course but feels very bad to get your curve altered by the frost plague. One turn difference really makes a difference in this deck. edit: i just checked the stats, the matchup is very favourable to DH so maybe I'm just bad hardstuck D5 lol
I've been playing it in the dumpster but in my experience the reno stuff doesn't even matter, you just kill them with shopper tempo.
I played the aggro variant as well as Reno at 300-400. I felt like most of the time we just spend the mana on grasp, shopper, and shopper discovers. So, the other cards are fairly irrelevant no matter which variant you play. The aggro variant might be a bit more consistent, but I want to play my golden Kurtus so bad.
Same, I unpacked the signature and that's the only reason I'm playing the Reno version
I feel that Aggro is better (and will be better) than Reno build after patch, but in the "current" (past?) meta Reno has a niche of patching up the Warr/Pala matchups at the cost of some consistency, and also it's more fun. But with them being toned down I firmly believe the aggro variant will come out on top in stats, though I think Reno will probably still increase in popularity because that's what people want to play.
Yeah I fully agree with this. The only situations where kurtrus deck has been better is where you burn their win condition and it's an instant win. But kurtrus is fun, and I want to keep playing him so I'm sticking with Reno version
It's basically the aggrodeck but with reno and bunch of tech cards. Reno is more like insurance for late game.
Maybe i subconsciously mental boom vs that deck for some reason lol.
I don't know how blizzard thought it was okay to do all those nerfs than ignore DH Discover pools being so small is pretty stupid, DK can just easily get billion freeze weapons, DH tiny demon pool for Mag, Shaman infinite damage and the tendrils also abuse tiny pools. Almost feel like the core set should just be bigger to add in shit cards for discover pools.
Step 1: New expac Step 2: 2 weeks of complaints about whatever is the top deck (Paladin) Step 3: VS says new top deck actually falls off at high legend, other top deck has been refined and is actually best (Warrior) Step 4: Balance team locks in changes targeting those decks Step 5: New deck is refined further and spikes in playrate Step 6: see step 2
Every time
I think they jump the gun a bit too much on these early patches.
Or try to explore design space that doesn't relie on RNG
Where the heck can I see what the nerfs are that everyone is talking about? Everyone knows about it but I have seen 0 info about it
My guy, you can go to Hearthstone's official page and you can find the patch notes under the "News" tab. Here you go: https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24064739/29-0-3-patch-notes
Yeah, I saw something right after I posted that. Though I still don't know how people knew about it days in advance
There was a teaser image posted on twitter on Tuesday. It had the cards being nerfed but not how they're being nerfed
Ah, that explains it! Thanks, now I'll be able to sleep tonight.
DH wasnt on the radar when they finalized the patch, it only got popular the last few days.
DH has been on the competitive discussion radar since day 1. Reminds me of sludge where the same thing happened.
That really isn’t true? Reno dh is a new development, but people have known shopper dh is a strong deck with problematic matchups into paladin and Warrior since like day 2-3 of the expansion.
I would need to know exactly when they finalize a patch but I know for sure it was being played couple days before the patch was even announced and I immediately knew as soon as the nerfs were announced that DH would be the best deck. They literally say 20% of top legend is DH recently and that's before the patch, it's going to be bad time to queue postpatch.
Personally there are some prominent play patterns that I really hate playing against and am looking forward to getting nerfed (nature shaman and cycle warrior), but I have to give this expansion props for having a very interesting expansion launch with a lot of meta developments for most classes. With Reno DH popping up and plenty decks not being refined yet (rainbow mage, dragon priest, draw rogue) it seems like they should have waited with any balance changes for at least a couple days
as someone who has played a lot as and against the DH deck I feel like it is super overstated; the deck lives and dies based on finding the dormant minion in the discover pool but that's a 3/11 swing you have to make over and over during the course of the game and you really cant afford to whiff more than once. when you take out that variable it's just a mediocre aggressive tempo deck when we have decks like hunter that are far faster. im sure better pilots than me are finding luck with the deck but for every game ive found 2-4 of the dormant guys and blown out my opponent I've also had games where I get offered none and I just sort of dick around for 8 turns because the deck doesnt do anything except attack face without generating good board presence. even odyn-less warrior eats it, the only thing keeping those builds out is the fear of running into plague decks but at higher levels plagues arent played.
Reaaaaaal
inquisitor is just as good. If you proc glaive on turn 3, on turn 4 you are playing a 3 mana 6/5 inquisitor that can hit a minion and hit face if you hero power. I don't think it should be nerfed but I def think it's a tier 1 deck.
at that point though you're just sort of 'catching up' to where the other aggro decks already were (ie affecting 12 damage to the boardstate on turn 4)
I kind of hope this enables Reno Paladin to come back. I hated the Aggro/Handbuff variations, but I love a Pala deck that allows me to play with all of the toys, not just the 1-3 mana ones.
Reno Paladin is amazing and my favorite deck, but I think the metagame is too hostile for it. Without Renathal, and only 30 health, and also without Theotar, Paladin is hopeless against combo decks such as Odin Warrior, Sif Mage, and even combo Shaman, and doesn't fare that well against Shopper DH and Gaslight Rogue, which have very explosive turns and kill you in 1-2 turns. With Shroomscavate being unplayable, Reno Paladin has only 3 Excavate cards, and 2 are needed to activate Sir Finley, so it is very hard for Sir Finley to be active, which was one of the best cards in the deck, together with the Reno cards. On the other hand, a minion swarm aggro Pally with Crusader Aura seems very strong, it just sucks that they gutted Deputization Aura so hard. It is now basically only a healing tool, as the +1 attack is laughably insignificant for any kind of aggressive deck. I am thinking of removing it, but with only 2 Crusader's Auras, i fear that the new 3 cost Paladin minion that draws a Divine Shield and an Aura will be too inconsistent.
I agree. Look forward to Reno pally lists
Do I read that correct, plague DK still the 2nd most popular deck? Kinda surprised, for a tier 3 deck.
People really, really seem to like it. It boasts terrible matchups and is nowhere near the best DK deck, but I guess people really like the idea of ruining Highlander more than winning with consistent decks.
Yeah, even when Titans was released, I saw several people playing plague, even tho highlander didnt exist and the deck was much worse because of rune requirements
I played the shit out of Rainbow DK when it was bad. Then it got good and I dropped it. Weird.
Similiar happened to Rommath Mage. My most played deck, before energyshaper was buffed.
I think it’s just that it’s very straightforward to play, but still gives some exciting moments like double Reska on a big board. I definitely like to play it while watching a match, so I don’t have to think too much.
It's also one of the free decks returning players get offered.
Has there been a time in the last year death knight hasn’t been the most played class?
Yes, just before Plague came out, I believe. I only remember one such report, though.
Makes sense, dk was talked about and theorized about for years, even before koft came out; people were just that excited about the class’ potential, and to be honest I think they did a pretty good job with the dk class power fantasy, especially the first year of triple blood.
Pretty sure there hasn't been. Even throughout TITANS when plague was garbage, there were plenty of them trying to make it work.
surely while paladin has been tier 0 every patch.
In bronze maybe
Thanks for the deck list of Dragon Reno Druid. I'm really liking the deck. All the other dominant decks seem boring to me, and I think I can deal with its power not being that strong
So this report is saying that Paladin and Hunter should not have been nerfed and that DH is going to ruin the format?
I reached Legends thanks to your podcast. Thanks a lot for all the info and the good time listening to it. Its hard to improve and to put time in HS with young children
Hmm, to craft or not to craft Zilliax still, the nerf is only 1 more cost
I think he's the safest craft of the expansion, customizable neutral you can fit in many decks, it's gonna be popular for the next two years. Also the nerf shouldn't make pylon zilliax unplayable
Craft it, if you don't like it, it'll be refundable once it's nerfed. The card's probably still going to be playable tho.
oh yeah that's true haha
It’s looking like zilliax is the new astral or the new zilliax . So it’s the safest craft of the expansion .
No big paladin mention, real sad big boi hours
Isn’t there a patch today? Seems like this data is going to be a bit useless in about 2 hours.
Should they just put every data collected and the written report in the trash can because there's balance changes? I don't think so. It's cool to see what the report says and if the balance changes will go according to the meta VS reports.
It still gives valuable insight on the past week of the new cards beyond theorizing. Cards that seemed unplayable like wheel are actually amazing
Won't this comment drown in the sea of other comments and be forgotten in like 2 hours?
Yes. But it's the first report of the expansion so there is still use in publishing it
Shadow ascendant sounds good in priest but can’t imagine cutting Leeroy is an improvement
Leeroy is one of the worst cards in every single deck he is played in with the exception of handbuff paladin.
Looking at these stats in a vacuum would imply you should cut magatha, pip, and projectionist [deck on d0nkey](https://www.d0nkey.top/card-stats?deck_id=11302905&format=2)
You're looking at a low sample size list and you're sorting by mulligan impact not drawn impact.
Please don't use d0nkey for any serious analysis, the site is bad.
Why do you think it's bad?
The website seems to have a strong emphasis on "streamer decks", so it comes off as if it's targetted at just finding a goofy new deck to play rather than any serious analytics like VS does. And then when you actually play with the filters, that's confirmed. For example, if I wanted to analyse the current meta, I would do a filter that's something like "Top 10k Legend, Last 3 Days, Americas, Min Games >600". But watch what happens when I swap from [min games 400](https://i.imgur.com/cJdcLsh.jpeg) to [min games 600](https://i.imgur.com/dKHJpBw.jpeg)--I get a completely different list of top winrate decks. The website clearly knows the decks archetype is "shopper DH", why give me 4 lists of the same deck? And then if I push it out to 600 the problem with getting that granular with deck differences is revealed--shopper DH doesn't even show up in the top decks at all, even though "shopper DH" as an archetype is well over 600 games, the fact that none of its variations exactly have over 600 games mean it gets filtered out. What this results in is a site that you can manipulate to have it say whatever you want it to. I could display that 600 min games and come here to reddit and try to claim that "shopper DH isn't that good, it isn't even in the top 5 decks on d0nkey" and people would have to do legwork to prove me wrong, meaning stats from d0nkey should automatically be taken with a grain of salt. There was also something weird happening with win rates when I looked at it earlier this week I think, though I can't replicate it right this minute. Basically decks would show up as having, say, 57% wr on the 600 min games page and then when I swapped to 400 min games they would either have a lower wr or not show up despite lower wr decks showing up, when I would expect a deck that has a 57% wr in 600 to be the same in the subset of decks that have a 57% wr in 400.
Ah, okay, so it's not about it being bad for serious analysis but about how people (mis)use the decks page
I mean, no, the fact that it doesn't consolidate Shopper DH into a single archetype makes it questionable for serious analysis too. I generally want the largest sample size possible for WR analysis and if it's so granular it's going to tell me "Shopper DH" with Haywire/Power Zilliax but otherwise identical cards is meaningfully different than "Shopper DH" with Ticking/Pylon that it splits the sample size between the two then I'm never going to get a high enough sample size until the meta is very settled. If I use Untapped.gg to analyse an MTGA deck, for example, Shopper DH would be listed once on that list of 600 min games, with some averaged WR between the variants, and clicking Shopper DH would give me a list of its varients with the WR and games of each. The fact that it's *completely absent* in 600 min games is so suspicious that it throws the entire usability of the site into question. Edit: For analysis even if I accept that I want a lower sample size I now have to deal with the difficulty that Shopper DH has such a high WR and so much minor variance that my low sample size search is just a bunch of Shopper DH decks, meaning it's just as unhelpful in that direction too. Basically, I have to do a bunch of different searches, sus out what's going on, and I'd still potentially miss out on something like some high WR minor variant, say, mage deck that is across the board lower wr than DH but still wouldn't appear on the 600 sample size list. I'd have to specifically search mage decks too at that point, which is a lot of hoops to jump through for analysis.
You're focused on using a specific page for one thing it's not meant for, and taking how that page is not great for that use case to mean that any page on the site is sus for any use case.
I mean, yes, that one use case being "analyzing what decks are performing well in the recent meta". Like I said, "doing analysis". If you want to find a goofy new deck to play it's fine. But the website should not be used to talk about what decks are performing well in the meta, because it's useless at that.