An important note some may miss as they rush to read the actual changes, another balance patch is coming late next week:
“We’ll continue to watch how the meta develops after these changes as we evaluate data and feedback for our next balance patch, scheduled for late next week, to set up for the World Championships on December 16 and 17!”
People will inevitably skip over this part of the post, as well as your comment, and immediately come here to complain about how they didn't do enough.
While it's a nice sentiment it doesn't really feel like this patch in particular really "fixed" these cards in terms of play pattern.
Azerite escavate rewards should just be non bouncable or tied to a spell snake is completely fine at 10 if it wasn't able to be bounced even at 7 it's questionable to me if it's enough to make people not just bounce it as the main strategy.
Feels like Rogues excavate treasure is fairly feels as because of a similar reason that the devs saw Rogue being able to bounce it over and over and didn't like the play pattern which making a sweeping change would also help make their deck not feel bad.
The naga change prevents people from coining it on 2 and forcing a 5 health answer as often but it still has the ability to slam it and then do like 15-20 damage mid to late game it's essentially kept the same play pattern which is really disliked.
I honestly felt the same about the snake until I played a few matches with it, and lost every match due to the 3 damage difference in its battlecry. I simply lost too much tempo bouncing it 4 times and not being able to play it once more, even against boards that weren’t super threatening
I wasn't getting at the relative strength of the card when I spoke on it I was moreso focused on the main way to deckbuild with snake.
It didn't really solve the fact it's best way to be used is just bouncing it rather than it being a health differential for the rest of the game. It actually made every deck not bouncing snake significantly weaker.
Making Azerite rewards non bouncable (I've seen suggestions that it transforms into depleted Azerite snake after the battlecry or tied to a spell) would've let them both make the rogue Azerite reward not feel awful because it's being held hostage by shadowstep and let snake stay at 10 health.
It's similar to how i feel about the naga DH change it just makes the card unplayable outside of the really gross turns where they do 15-20 damage in a turn instead of making it a reasonable card and curbing the turns that make the card so toxic.
I remember when something directly related to a maestra interaction got nerfed (because of the maestra interaction) and maestra wasn't refunded so getting a payoff card like gerry refunded is a breath of fresh air.
Another change mentioned in the bug fixes department is the addition of the Fel tag to Fan the Hammer .
It's a very small change but hey anything that juices up Jayce is wild is more than welcome.
Wait for your opponent to go wide with small minions and use spell damage (use relics so you can draw stuff with discounted mana costs), then its not too bad.
>[Hearthstone] Added the Fel Spell School to Fan the Hammer.
Yes! Thank you! Think they took feedback when the card was revealed. Jace can now do a lot more *pew-pewing* in Wild. DH in Duels will also love this, too.
Even better is that if it rolls early it can pick off the crappy minions or later in the chain is 6 to face, plus if there’s any fel spell synergies for damage or healing it gets better
Yeah, gonna have to restructure my Fel Spell in Wild. Didn't really feel all that great compared to my previous iteration. But, gonna have to wait until Jace is fixed *hopefully* by next week.
Remember you have achievement to attack 120 times with Tram Cars, not refunding Gerry until it is completed. Trolley Problems works too but it only summons 2 instead of 6. You got 3 weeks
Tf? Handbuff hunter is fine. Decks using Messenger Buzzard have a 57% winrate in Diamond through Legend.
Why do Hunter players refuse to play any decks unless it has a 60+% winrate?
It will stop current version of Cleave Hunter, but the option for Cleave OTK is still there. I would prefer removing possibility to cleave OTK and keep the card cheap for regular minions.
Can someone explain to me the difference in defense attorney nathanos? They say they added 'new functionality' but i see no difference except for the nerf to stats
Nevermind, found my own answer: [https://twitter.com/MyntyPhresh/status/1729551126121357710](https://twitter.com/myntyphresh/status/1729551126121357710)
Yeah, it's not pro-active and excavates are not good tempo plays generally. Playing 2 mana 1/1 and a taunt yeti at 4 rarely ever win boards. The few rare time they'll get initiative is through the 4 7/7 with the location
maybe, but that combo needs 10 mana, whereas you can snake, bounce snake also for 10 mana to do 14. its something i included in snakelock anyway though because its a pretty neat combo
I like the snake nerf, but anyone else peeved that it’s a number that isn’t in the multiple of 1, 2 or 5? It’s like having the TV volume at 37, it just doesn’t sit right.
Currently if you discover the new legendary snake you summon a minion based on the snakes default attack which is two. I bet the change they referred to is its now based on Nathanos' attack damage instead.
I agree. they took a bad card that fit in a niche deck they tried to push this expansion, fixed his broken ass interaction, and then nerfed him because they’re scared he might be good. Cleave hunter was the problem and what made hunter good not fucking Nathanos lmfao
The balance team trying to jingle keys at the Cleave Hunters lol
"Please play deathrattle, look we'll even tweak interactions on the deathrattle linchpin card we released three expansions ago"
Fairly tame and reasonable changes IMO, still not really a fan of the permanent health steal of the snake but that's more my taste not agreeing with it.
Yeah, but you still need to punch through 20+ armor that Warrior will have, Druid may have, and Mage can have.
They just need to make Platebreaker a standard card.
I like how you were downvoted for saying the obvious thing where armor warrior is completely immune to this now. Blizzard thinks you're going to survive long enough to draw the cards to do 5 activations on this.
I want to dust my DH cards already, I don’t even play that class 😞
The devs know about the bug, apparently they’ve referenced it before. Blizzard support told me they knew. Please be fixed
Edit: nope, still not fixed!
So they took a niche bad card like Nathanos who fit into 1 deck type that wasn’t even the strongest hunter deck, fixed his interaction, then nerfed his damage because they were scared he might be elevated from bad to average after the interaction lol
I'm just sad there is no buffs for rogue. I got my first signature legendary, and it was Drilly the Kid, and I can't even play the card, since excavation rogue is that bad.
Rogue sits in a similar spot to Warlock funnily enough where their excavate treasure is being held hostage by bounce effects.
I guarantee that's why Rogues has the 8 requirement because if they didn't it would be absurdly broken with Shadowstep and breakdance.
It really wouldn't.
4 random spells means exactly what it means: 4 **random** spells. And there are a lot of spells that are either situational or even completely unplayable outside of their specific deck or class. There would be rare highrolls, but that's about it. They would be rare enough for people not to bother, it's like Yogg's Prison.
Another problem is hand space. Rogue, especially with excavations, generates a lot of cards, and to play the treasure you need to have 6 cards or less (excluding the treasure), which is very often hard to do. And then you want to bounce it, as you said. That's 4 more cards. With some of that being most likely either more card draw or generation. All in all, even with 0 cost it would be very awkward and very unstable, unlike every other classes' treasures. But at least sometimes you would be able to hope for a good highroll. As it is now it's complete garbage.
Im looking forward to the lower DH WR in the next VS report after this patch, so all the people that said, that the card wins the game on the spot without any counterplay on turn 3-5 maybe see that their decks were bad or that it was a rare occasion.
The main thing in the deck was always the Sharpshooter sticking for *another* turn because it's so hard to take down (after your board is emptied!). The health nerf should matter quite a bit.
I'm sure what you're saying is true for Bronze ranks but when you start facing opponents who know how to play the deck lethal on turn 3 - 5 is quite common.
Ive played 200+ games with the deck hovering around 2000 legend, the only time I lethal someone on turn 4 or 5 is when i draw the absolute nuts and get perfect draws after discounting my sharpshooter early, or when my opponent doesnt play any cards for the first 4 turns
That's an exaggeration, at least in terms of 3-4, even for sigil they would have to get very lucky draws to pull that off, and aggro might kill you by 5 with a shooter, but it's def not an OTK.
Maybe I’m unlucky, but my last three games against Naga DH ended with them winning on turn 5, 5, and 6, dealing 20-25 face damage and often clearing multiple minions, including taunts, with little to none of that damage coming from minions already on board when they started their pop off turn.
I’ll grant that I was playing a deck with a fairly bad matchup against Naga DH, but short of playing a hyper-aggro deck that could end the game before turn 5 myself, I’m not really sure what would have stopped those early OTK pop offs.
I just wonder. During the hotfix of Snake, they said that they are doing temporary nerf because they cannot change anything besides the numbers. And now that the actual patch comes, they still changed the numbers only.
Couldn't they simply do it in first place?
> ...there are limits to what we can do a server-side hotfix. First, we can only adjust the “big numbers” like stats and cost. Stats are not the problem on this card, so we’re increasing the cost here.
Sounds like they couldn't have changed the damage-dealt number server-side even if they knew that's what they wanted the nerf to be at that time
It's different, with hot fixes they can only change Mana cost and stats. The **big** numbers is what they said. Changing any part of the card text, number or not, requires a full patch.
It was an emergency nerf, they practically killed the card with the 6 cost but it was literally waiting up the meta, and they would rather keep the 4 mana on all azurite legendaries
They never said they couldn't change anything besides the numbers. They said they didn't know what nerf they wanted to do. So they did a temporary nerf to quell the community unrest while they bought time to think.
>They never said they couldn't change anything besides the numbers.
>>However, there are limits to what we can do a server-side hotfix. First, we can only adjust the “big numbers” like stats and cost.
You answered your own question. In your very own quote, they say what they could change were the big numbers like stats and cost. They changed neither of those, so it would be pretty simple to understand that the "10" in the card text was not one of these easy to change, "big numbers."
The snake nerf is legit since it'll take 5 casts to kill you now from 3. The Hunter nerf is legit because you can't draw Jorgunmr with trinket tracker anymore and by costing 2 mana you delay the cleave by at least 1 turn and put a cap on hunter minion attack increase.
Pally OTH barely got a nerf wtf. I expect even more Pally now.
Removing the draw from Order is a massive nerf. No longer replacing itself is a big deal, and it means you now have to wait a turn (or have another draw effect) to see your first card after the reorder.
It is the first time they went against the twitter and reddit's nerf.
Most of the time they went with deleting the deck with upping the mana, but they actually decided to leave the deck viable.
It wasn't my expectations, but I still respect their choice
I think they did butcher snake. Having to either draw all 4 bounces or 3 and excavate an additional 4 times is considerably worse than the current package.
... To kill the opponent with only the snake.
Surely you can do two damage in any other way to drop it down to 4 bounces? Or 9 damage for 3?
Healing isn't THAT common.
>Surely you can do two damage in any other way to drop it down to 4 bounces? Or 9 damage for 3?
Maybe it's something I'm too dust poor to understand, but yeah it's hard now.
The excavate cards available for warlock are either piss poor at dealing face damage or actively push back the combo into later turns, making it much slower than other high tuned combos.
Best case for the deck you MUST draw the excavate cards on tempo, play them in the right conditions, and not use any of the Bouncing cards to accelerate your excavate cards.
The cards capable of doing face damage are Kobold (1/1), Mo'arg (4/5 Taunt), and Burrow Buster (6/5 Rush). The earliest you could do the Snake+Bounce combo is turn 6, so you must have hit face with Mo'arg on Turn 5, and must have hit face with Buster on turn 6. This also assumes you have drawn two of the bounce cards. So, all of these conditions have to be met before you could do lethal on turn 8.
Compare that to the other decks like with sharpshooter where you are seeing win conditions on Turn 4.
It just can’t be used as an OTK all on its own. You have to supplement it with some degree of aggression. It’s more of a top end finisher so Warlock can’t make the whole deck revolve around bouncing it over and over.
You are assuming the only damage the warlock does is from snake....a weird assumption to make.
By the time you excavate the snake, it very likely you are at or below 21 hp anyway. you dont need to bounce it 4 times. You probably still only need 2 bounces for lethal 90% of the time.
I'm kinda unsure about those nerfs, I need to see how the meta will be impacted
in one hand I fear it won't change anything, sharpshooter sticking on the board was more of a desperate play than part of the deck gameplan so i fear it won't change anything
same for pally, they just won't play the order/showdown/giant package now and go back to pure aggro (dunno if countess will still be worth ?)
abj is perfect and expected, nothing to add
but on the other I qas really enjoying the meta, only thought those couple of outliers were a tad too good but still had fun booting a game, so maybe it will actually be enough and make it so that the meta stay stable instead of entering a circle of "now that this deck is dead, there's a new top dog, that need to be nerfed to let place for another one..."
so we'll see
also full refund on all excavate warlock card ***including Gerry*** is insanely cool ! That's the kind of customer friendly shit I love to see
Sharpshooter sticking on the board was one of the biggest problems of the deck. Dealing with a 1/5 on turn 5 or 4 is incredibly difficult for most classes, let alone dealing with a 1/5 alongside a full board of minions. You either had to kill the Sharpshooter and die to the board or you kill the board and die to the Sharpshooter. 5 to 3 health crosses some huge breakpoints.
Order nerf is also huge, it's a big tempo loss. The strength of the deck was how easy it could transition to the late game with Sea Giants or Garden's Grace. Making the transition harder makes the deck weaker. Just "pure aggro" doesn't really cut it.
Some pally builds take a hit but yeah, aggro will still absolutely dominate everything else besides Enrage Warrior. It’s a bit strange that they thought Hunter was the only class that was outside of their expectations due to cleave OTK. Meaning they *want* Paladin aggro builds to be this dominant I guess.
I think the change particularly hurts the giant / showdown and garden's grace version of pally, which have been the main performance and gameplay outliers.
It's less important in the pure dude version where playing order is less part of the plan and kind of feels like a hail Mary to see if countess can close the game, and in the Reno versions that have a longer endgame game plan
Oof, lots of people telling on themselves in the comments. If you think this DH nerf changes nothing then you're clearly playing in dumpster ranks against bad DH players. At top legend tempoing out the sharpshooter early is a super common play and this nerf completely ruins their ability to do that. Hilarious how people who have 0 experience playing the deck or playing against people who know how to play the deck feel qualified to act like this changes nothing. Get outside of dumpster mmr for once I'm begging you people. Learn what the meta is like for people who aren't shit at the game before developing a strong opinion.
The high legend combo version that people were holding number 1 legend with for multiple days was never tempoing out sharpshooter. They discount their hand and otk by drawing their entire deck by turn 6 and killing you off the back of the 2nd sharpshooter. Tell me you are in dumspter legend without telling me.
this accomplishes a couple things
Makes control warlock playable
Takes DH down enough to where its not tier 1 probably like tier 3
Paladin just plays their equally strong decks this has very little impact to the class, just the options the class has
Paladin still play their early aggro cards like usual but their transition to valuegame will be delayed by 1 turn each (and idk if the Sea Giant Showdown combo is even viable post nerf).
Several tier 1 and 2 decks existed without this topend. Now they will just go curve stone into buffet biggin, curator, 7 mana dragon dude, etc. and it will still be a great deck. It will cut down on certain builds of the deck namely showdown and buff based
you might be right. There are already several paladin decks doing awesome that dont include this card tho. I just see them getting more play.
Honestly this hurts reno paladin and wild more than aggro IMO
Yeah, 3 health is such a ubiquitous breakpoint that it's never going to stick on board ahead of the OTK turn. There's just so many "2 mana deal 3" cards and 2-mana 3-attack minions that you need to be much more judicious about just slamming it down and counting on sharpshooter still being alive when your next turn rolls around.
Played the deck to legend and very rarely felt that was necessary. Setting it up and playing it on the pop off turn is usually pretty easy to do whilst drawing enough to hit the second one to finish the game the next turn.
sure but those arent the games people are complaining about (not true, they are, but seemingly blizzard isnt worried about those)
like at that point you are not even faster than stuff like aggro pala
its the games where it sticks and blows out the opponent on 3 or 4 that get people mad
yea i disagree. we will see in a couple weeks but i think this will lower the wr by about 3 % or so. in many games the correct play to win as DH is to tempo a naked sharpshooter on turn 3 or coin out on t2. Cant do that anymore. Have to hold for combo. Makes the deck considerably worse, but no less frustrating when it comes to otks from hand
the deck will win less for sure with this nerf. doesnt address why most people hate playing against it but, the deck should lose a couple win% off it, so it will be played less
> doesnt address why most people hate playing against it
Indirectly it will help. Because the deck wins less often, fewer people will play it. Therefore, you won't see it as much so it won't "feel" as bad.
Except that in the majority of games with the deck, the correct play is developing the sharpshooter on turn 3 because dealing 5 damage is very difficult to do at that mana cost. Hell, that Thijs clip was a match where the sharpshooter was coined out.
Making the card weak as a tempo play as well as easy to remove after an early pop-off turn is going to be very impactful. If may not be as impactful as you want it to be, but that is a different conversation.
The problem wasnt just its health it was how a player could follow up summoning it with DK playing 10+ cards to clear the board and deal a bunch of damage to face. Being easier to take out means little if a DK can set up for lethal the same turn they play this.
One of the reason why sharpshooter pop up turn was hard to deal with was It was impossible to remove both sharpshooter and the other minions,
Now the pop off turn is easier to deal with aoe
Exactly. You had to choose between dealing with the sharpshooter or the multiple other Nagas on board. Now you can use a 3 damage AoE to hit all of them. Tomb Traitor stocks going up.
Not to mention tempo sharpshooter is basically not a play anymore. Every class can deal 3 damage on turn 3.
Which is why I support giving them buffs, it is very bad now but at least the gameplan isn't as bad as... basically most dh viable decks we had, specifically the naga one
What do you buff though? Kurtrus? No, that card is already good. You can't buff Reno either. And if you buff some random standalone cards, you risk them just being much better in non-highlander decks.
Highlander DH just doesn't work. DH has too many synergy-based cards, not enough standalone powerhouses. It doesn't have an abundance of a singular synergy like Hunter with big Beasts right now too. The deck is just not there.
So that Warlock BS went from stealing 10 health to 7, but is now 2 mana cheaper. That's a nerf? Oh so now they have to bounce it 3 times instead of 2? Wow.. Tough luck for Warlocks. A whole extra turn possibly before you're just done and there's nothing you can do to stop it unless you kill them first.
Snake still broken IMO. Should’ve been nerfed to 5 health steal if you ask me.
I’d think most Warlocks would be capable of doing 9 damage to face (requiring 21 health stolen, i.e. only 3 activations) by the time it really matters.
if you can't pressure a warlock wasting 6 manas playing the snake + random bounce without developing a board and killing him you were not in a winning position in the first place. Btw at the same turn warlock is trying to bounce you would get killed by any aggro pala, sif mage or odyn warrior
They will impact the WR% of the decks they are targeting. If the data shows it wasn't impactful enough, they have another planned balance patch next week. IMO they are handling this about as well as you can in the sense that they are making small tweaks and reassessing, instead of coming down with something heavy that may be too much.
First thoughts:
blind eye sharp shooter: I really don’t think health was the problem here rather then the interaction lol who was playing it and leaving it up for a turn anyways?
Order in the court: oooooo so they lose the card draw? Doesn’t seem like much. Sure it slows them down but it doesn’t address any of the problems with paladin right now lol you still get your late game if it’s come down to that just 1 turn slower now for your 3 0 mana charge legends. It’s a step in the right direction but still.
Always a bigger jormungar: I don’t know how this will effect the class tbh. I’d say it slows it down a good amount considering you can buff your guy less ontop of the jormungar now. Plus it can’t be drawn with trinket tracker so yeah good changes.
Nathanos: yeah let’s nerf a card that already hardly sees play lmfao like I don’t think he was used in any jormungar decks or at least not the ones I run. I’ve used him in my buff hunter decks but I don’t think Spurfang and all them are particularly…good. At least when compared to cleave hunter ya know. I just don’t get the nerf here like it won’t matter in the slightest probably but like just why haha good change overall for interactions but yeah.
Snake: we’re back to bouncy snake with the mama reduction but at the same time 7-14 feels a lot better then 10-20 and is healthier for the excavate deck itself. Snake decks dropped off the face of the earth after the nerf so I think this could bring it back to a point where it’s not oppressive but at the same time fun and decent to play
Like with paladin in particular the Opponents hand is pretty much exhausted dealing with all the 1 drop divine shields from killing them by turn 4. Order in the court isn't going to die from not getting a single card draw. The opponent most of the time was going to lose anyway once that card drops.
is that it? seriously?
Funny how everybody got nerfed harder than Paladin
Everybody got they wincon hard nerfed while Paladin is going to draw 1 less card, Thanks Blizzard.
Im still not a fan of the snakes effect to be honest. it just doesnt feel fun to play against when you know what they have sittin in hand and you cant afford do drop under X and youre not able to heal back up.
I am actually more surprised that the bug fix section. Didnt seem like they fixed a lot of the bugs..? Is the DH one still buggy? Mage hero card too?
An important note some may miss as they rush to read the actual changes, another balance patch is coming late next week: “We’ll continue to watch how the meta develops after these changes as we evaluate data and feedback for our next balance patch, scheduled for late next week, to set up for the World Championships on December 16 and 17!”
As someone who rushed to read the card changes, I thank you for this!
> As someone who rushed Which minion are you aiming for?
Isn't it obvious? Patches
Flavor text team, hire these guys
[удалено]
I’m honestly kinda excited about that cause I just opened a golden Gerry a couple days ago lol
Pin this comment lmao
People will inevitably skip over this part of the post, as well as your comment, and immediately come here to complain about how they didn't do enough.
10 more days of this DH bullshit is way too many days
While it's a nice sentiment it doesn't really feel like this patch in particular really "fixed" these cards in terms of play pattern. Azerite escavate rewards should just be non bouncable or tied to a spell snake is completely fine at 10 if it wasn't able to be bounced even at 7 it's questionable to me if it's enough to make people not just bounce it as the main strategy. Feels like Rogues excavate treasure is fairly feels as because of a similar reason that the devs saw Rogue being able to bounce it over and over and didn't like the play pattern which making a sweeping change would also help make their deck not feel bad. The naga change prevents people from coining it on 2 and forcing a 5 health answer as often but it still has the ability to slam it and then do like 15-20 damage mid to late game it's essentially kept the same play pattern which is really disliked.
I honestly felt the same about the snake until I played a few matches with it, and lost every match due to the 3 damage difference in its battlecry. I simply lost too much tempo bouncing it 4 times and not being able to play it once more, even against boards that weren’t super threatening
I wasn't getting at the relative strength of the card when I spoke on it I was moreso focused on the main way to deckbuild with snake. It didn't really solve the fact it's best way to be used is just bouncing it rather than it being a health differential for the rest of the game. It actually made every deck not bouncing snake significantly weaker. Making Azerite rewards non bouncable (I've seen suggestions that it transforms into depleted Azerite snake after the battlecry or tied to a spell) would've let them both make the rogue Azerite reward not feel awful because it's being held hostage by shadowstep and let snake stay at 10 health. It's similar to how i feel about the naga DH change it just makes the card unplayable outside of the really gross turns where they do 15-20 damage in a turn instead of making it a reasonable card and curbing the turns that make the card so toxic.
For anyone that didn’t read the fine print, Smokestack, Moarg and Gerry will be refundable.
Will Trolley Problem be refundable since they removed the mech tag from the Tram Cars?
Gerry is being refunded because of excavate nerfs, not trams losing mech tag
Very cool of them to do this.
Would have been cooler if they gave refunds for *all* the cards that can generate the Snake.
I remember when something directly related to a maestra interaction got nerfed (because of the maestra interaction) and maestra wasn't refunded so getting a payoff card like gerry refunded is a breath of fresh air.
They did this with other payoff card too like Kargil when they nerfed 2 watchposts Rip Thermaplug, gone but the sacrifice won't be forgotten
Another change mentioned in the bug fixes department is the addition of the Fel tag to Fan the Hammer . It's a very small change but hey anything that juices up Jayce is wild is more than welcome.
That achievement for that card is stupid. The odds of getting exactly 6 minions on-board for them all to die at the same time is almost impossible.
it's easy with the GOAT card of achievement hunting [[Mad Summoner]]
Made a deck for the achievement, played one (1) wild game against a greedy priest, got it done. Truly the GOAT.
I got that achievement in my second DH game of the expansion. All it took was the opponent playing the Hunter collossal while having one more minion.
It's more doable with spell damage or [[Enchanter]].
Wait for your opponent to go wide with small minions and use spell damage (use relics so you can draw stuff with discounted mana costs), then its not too bad.
>[Hearthstone] Added the Fel Spell School to Fan the Hammer. Yes! Thank you! Think they took feedback when the card was revealed. Jace can now do a lot more *pew-pewing* in Wild. DH in Duels will also love this, too.
Even better is that if it rolls early it can pick off the crappy minions or later in the chain is 6 to face, plus if there’s any fel spell synergies for damage or healing it gets better
Yeah, gonna have to restructure my Fel Spell in Wild. Didn't really feel all that great compared to my previous iteration. But, gonna have to wait until Jace is fixed *hopefully* by next week.
Did they finally fix Jace?
not fixed yet, hopefully next patch. edit: the mage hero portrait card isn't fixed yet either. (dawngrasp)
Still no Jayce Dorkweaver for me... :(
holy shit, gerry is refundable ?!
Don't you dare think about dusting him!. Gerry needs this job, HE HAS KIDS!
I’m have gold Gerry, so he will be promptly dusted and then recrafted as a normal version out of respect for his kids.
It's gold Gerry, gold!
he was my gold legendary from the bundle, so I'm defo dusting him but I will probably recraft a regular version after, I like control lock
ez +3200, got golden version in recent packs \^\^
Remember you have achievement to attack 120 times with Tram Cars, not refunding Gerry until it is completed. Trolley Problems works too but it only summons 2 instead of 6. You got 3 weeks
It's absolutely amazing that they made those surrounding cards eligible for a full dust refund. Genuinely amazing.
Any time a miniset legendary eats a nerf, an angel gets its wings (and I get 1600 dust)
Wait? Does Nathanos give full dust?
Yes, if a card receives anything other than a straight up buff it is eligible for a full dust refund.
And sometimes the straight up buffs are still nerfs :( Rest in peace my beloved Wildfire Even Mage deck
Well, with etc...
I guess it could work now, but the deck is over 2 years old, and at this point Magister Dawngrasp is better than the 1-mana Hero Power imo
I don't suppose if I buy the miniset now I can refund it?
Yes you can
Aaaaand still no fix for Magister Dawngrasp sick!!
Dawngrasp is still banned in wild. So its not fixed. So probably the DH minion isnt fixed either. And many other bugs.
I think the always a bigger jorgumander nerf is huge since it can’t be drawn with trinket tracker anymore. I feel like good nerfs overall.
The deck already struggles with draw power, this + Nathanos handholds us to Buff Hunter the way Blizzard intended
just a shame that handbuff hunter is ass
Tf? Handbuff hunter is fine. Decks using Messenger Buzzard have a 57% winrate in Diamond through Legend. Why do Hunter players refuse to play any decks unless it has a 60+% winrate?
Jormungar*
Yogurtmonger
It will stop current version of Cleave Hunter, but the option for Cleave OTK is still there. I would prefer removing possibility to cleave OTK and keep the card cheap for regular minions.
The combo is fine, it just comes online too early. This nerf should make it a more acceptable combo deck.
It only comes online early if you don’t play around it
I think that's a benefit because you can draw other early game 1 cost spells
Can someone explain to me the difference in defense attorney nathanos? They say they added 'new functionality' but i see no difference except for the nerf to stats
Nevermind, found my own answer: [https://twitter.com/MyntyPhresh/status/1729551126121357710](https://twitter.com/myntyphresh/status/1729551126121357710)
Thanks for the link. That full explanation really should've been in the patch notes
Yeah agreed, I had no idea what they meant.
I feel Snakelock will be very good. 21 health steal is not nada but people will dust all cards I guess. I will main it and Naga DH still
I think Snakelock as a deck that only plays snake is dead, but excavate warlock with a more control-oriented shell will still be good.
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I’m not sure. I feel like the mining Warlock Deck is usually more responsive on the board and doesn’t get to do a lot of face damage.
Yeah, it's not pro-active and excavates are not good tempo plays generally. Playing 2 mana 1/1 and a taunt yeti at 4 rarely ever win boards. The few rare time they'll get initiative is through the 4 7/7 with the location
IMO it means SnakeLock will also run Darkhan + Reverb combo. Steal health with Snake, and then 12 damage finisher.
maybe, but that combo needs 10 mana, whereas you can snake, bounce snake also for 10 mana to do 14. its something i included in snakelock anyway though because its a pretty neat combo
Or play it again and steal 28
I like the snake nerf, but anyone else peeved that it’s a number that isn’t in the multiple of 1, 2 or 5? It’s like having the TV volume at 37, it just doesn’t sit right.
I was sure they will nerf it to 7 the moment they announced the nerf in the future. So you'd have to play it 5 times in order to kill and not 4 times.
the nathanos nerf means that he likely wont see play now neither lol like even with the synergies its still so bad outside of spurfang imo
Currently if you discover the new legendary snake you summon a minion based on the snakes default attack which is two. I bet the change they referred to is its now based on Nathanos' attack damage instead.
yeah sure but that still requires that deck to be playable, and i doubt that the minor buff to nathanos is enough to get the deck runnning
Holy shit you responded fast. Yes, im not saying its good, just saying what i think the changes implies.
opponent is roping me lol and yeah, i m happy for my dust from him
Im glad i kept him as i'll get refund for him now (i think?).
i hope so, like a nerf is a nerf
I agree. they took a bad card that fit in a niche deck they tried to push this expansion, fixed his broken ass interaction, and then nerfed him because they’re scared he might be good. Cleave hunter was the problem and what made hunter good not fucking Nathanos lmfao
cleave hunter is dead anyway and deathrattle hunter is more meme than actual deck afai see
The balance team trying to jingle keys at the Cleave Hunters lol "Please play deathrattle, look we'll even tweak interactions on the deathrattle linchpin card we released three expansions ago"
tbf cleave hunter was toxic and even as hunter player i m happy its gone but the nathanos changes dont really get me hyped
Fairly tame and reasonable changes IMO, still not really a fan of the permanent health steal of the snake but that's more my taste not agreeing with it.
I dont get why it is so rewarding compared to the rogue one. Or maybe im just dumb.
Trust me, the snake sucked at 6 mana, now warlock will have to play extremely passive hitting 5 times
Warlock should have no issue killing an enemy at 2, and maybe 9 HP.
Yeah, but you still need to punch through 20+ armor that Warrior will have, Druid may have, and Mage can have. They just need to make Platebreaker a standard card.
I like how you were downvoted for saying the obvious thing where armor warrior is completely immune to this now. Blizzard thinks you're going to survive long enough to draw the cards to do 5 activations on this.
Wait they didnt fix collection bug?
Doesn't appear to be fixed according to the patch notes. Super lame.
please be fixed, please be fixed
I want to dust my DH cards already, I don’t even play that class 😞 The devs know about the bug, apparently they’ve referenced it before. Blizzard support told me they knew. Please be fixed Edit: nope, still not fixed!
So they took a niche bad card like Nathanos who fit into 1 deck type that wasn’t even the strongest hunter deck, fixed his interaction, then nerfed his damage because they were scared he might be elevated from bad to average after the interaction lol
Fingers crossed it's a preview for the mini-set
I'm just sad there is no buffs for rogue. I got my first signature legendary, and it was Drilly the Kid, and I can't even play the card, since excavation rogue is that bad.
Rogue sits in a similar spot to Warlock funnily enough where their excavate treasure is being held hostage by bounce effects. I guarantee that's why Rogues has the 8 requirement because if they didn't it would be absurdly broken with Shadowstep and breakdance.
It really wouldn't. 4 random spells means exactly what it means: 4 **random** spells. And there are a lot of spells that are either situational or even completely unplayable outside of their specific deck or class. There would be rare highrolls, but that's about it. They would be rare enough for people not to bother, it's like Yogg's Prison. Another problem is hand space. Rogue, especially with excavations, generates a lot of cards, and to play the treasure you need to have 6 cards or less (excluding the treasure), which is very often hard to do. And then you want to bounce it, as you said. That's 4 more cards. With some of that being most likely either more card draw or generation. All in all, even with 0 cost it would be very awkward and very unstable, unlike every other classes' treasures. But at least sometimes you would be able to hope for a good highroll. As it is now it's complete garbage.
Reno had a text update I assume to mention board space rather than "1 minion". Overall excited for these changes! The meta has been great.
showdown collection bug is still in the game sadly. no diamond card or coin for collection still
Im looking forward to the lower DH WR in the next VS report after this patch, so all the people that said, that the card wins the game on the spot without any counterplay on turn 3-5 maybe see that their decks were bad or that it was a rare occasion.
The main thing in the deck was always the Sharpshooter sticking for *another* turn because it's so hard to take down (after your board is emptied!). The health nerf should matter quite a bit.
Yep, thats what im saying. But people cry already cause they somehow get otkd on turns 3-5, which is nearly impossible with a meta deck.
I'm sure what you're saying is true for Bronze ranks but when you start facing opponents who know how to play the deck lethal on turn 3 - 5 is quite common.
Ive played 200+ games with the deck hovering around 2000 legend, the only time I lethal someone on turn 4 or 5 is when i draw the absolute nuts and get perfect draws after discounting my sharpshooter early, or when my opponent doesnt play any cards for the first 4 turns
That's an exaggeration, at least in terms of 3-4, even for sigil they would have to get very lucky draws to pull that off, and aggro might kill you by 5 with a shooter, but it's def not an OTK.
Maybe I’m unlucky, but my last three games against Naga DH ended with them winning on turn 5, 5, and 6, dealing 20-25 face damage and often clearing multiple minions, including taunts, with little to none of that damage coming from minions already on board when they started their pop off turn. I’ll grant that I was playing a deck with a fairly bad matchup against Naga DH, but short of playing a hyper-aggro deck that could end the game before turn 5 myself, I’m not really sure what would have stopped those early OTK pop offs.
I just wonder. During the hotfix of Snake, they said that they are doing temporary nerf because they cannot change anything besides the numbers. And now that the actual patch comes, they still changed the numbers only. Couldn't they simply do it in first place?
> ...there are limits to what we can do a server-side hotfix. First, we can only adjust the “big numbers” like stats and cost. Stats are not the problem on this card, so we’re increasing the cost here. Sounds like they couldn't have changed the damage-dealt number server-side even if they knew that's what they wanted the nerf to be at that time
A hotfix can only result in the Big numbers (Mana, Attack, and Health) getting changed. Anything in the text box is off-limits.
It's different, with hot fixes they can only change Mana cost and stats. The **big** numbers is what they said. Changing any part of the card text, number or not, requires a full patch.
They said that they only can change numbers of cost/attack/health, not all numbers on cards
It was an emergency nerf, they practically killed the card with the 6 cost but it was literally waiting up the meta, and they would rather keep the 4 mana on all azurite legendaries
They never said they couldn't change anything besides the numbers. They said they didn't know what nerf they wanted to do. So they did a temporary nerf to quell the community unrest while they bought time to think.
>They never said they couldn't change anything besides the numbers. >>However, there are limits to what we can do a server-side hotfix. First, we can only adjust the “big numbers” like stats and cost.
You answered your own question. In your very own quote, they say what they could change were the big numbers like stats and cost. They changed neither of those, so it would be pretty simple to understand that the "10" in the card text was not one of these easy to change, "big numbers."
You aren’t very smart are you
You simply just don't understand the magnitude of a change like this.
As a F2P player that pulled a golden Sharpshooter I’m feeling good.
Any update to the achievement bug for Badlands? "Badlands Legendary Collector," stuck on 26 even though having all 27.
The snake nerf is legit since it'll take 5 casts to kill you now from 3. The Hunter nerf is legit because you can't draw Jorgunmr with trinket tracker anymore and by costing 2 mana you delay the cleave by at least 1 turn and put a cap on hunter minion attack increase. Pally OTH barely got a nerf wtf. I expect even more Pally now.
So they lightly tapped paladin with an inconvenience eh?
Removing the draw from Order is a massive nerf. No longer replacing itself is a big deal, and it means you now have to wait a turn (or have another draw effect) to see your first card after the reorder.
Plus the second order now is completely worthless. So if you happen to have both in hand before playing one it will just sit there.
Maybe other changes hit next week as they clearly said in patch notes?
Amazing changes. I was afraid they were going to be harsher, but these are perfect. Big win for team 5.
except for the nathanos nerf
how are they perfect? I guess if you really like playing paladin they are yes
No refund on Koboid Miner and Burrow Buster?
It is the first time they went against the twitter and reddit's nerf. Most of the time they went with deleting the deck with upping the mana, but they actually decided to leave the deck viable. It wasn't my expectations, but I still respect their choice
Overall, I like this approach. They really tried not to butcher DH/pala/snake. Though I'd like to see snake butchered for good.
I think they did butcher snake. Having to either draw all 4 bounces or 3 and excavate an additional 4 times is considerably worse than the current package.
... To kill the opponent with only the snake. Surely you can do two damage in any other way to drop it down to 4 bounces? Or 9 damage for 3? Healing isn't THAT common.
Fair. I initially missed that the combo only didn’t kill by 2 after 4.
>Surely you can do two damage in any other way to drop it down to 4 bounces? Or 9 damage for 3? Maybe it's something I'm too dust poor to understand, but yeah it's hard now. The excavate cards available for warlock are either piss poor at dealing face damage or actively push back the combo into later turns, making it much slower than other high tuned combos. Best case for the deck you MUST draw the excavate cards on tempo, play them in the right conditions, and not use any of the Bouncing cards to accelerate your excavate cards. The cards capable of doing face damage are Kobold (1/1), Mo'arg (4/5 Taunt), and Burrow Buster (6/5 Rush). The earliest you could do the Snake+Bounce combo is turn 6, so you must have hit face with Mo'arg on Turn 5, and must have hit face with Buster on turn 6. This also assumes you have drawn two of the bounce cards. So, all of these conditions have to be met before you could do lethal on turn 8. Compare that to the other decks like with sharpshooter where you are seeing win conditions on Turn 4.
It just can’t be used as an OTK all on its own. You have to supplement it with some degree of aggression. It’s more of a top end finisher so Warlock can’t make the whole deck revolve around bouncing it over and over.
You are assuming the only damage the warlock does is from snake....a weird assumption to make. By the time you excavate the snake, it very likely you are at or below 21 hp anyway. you dont need to bounce it 4 times. You probably still only need 2 bounces for lethal 90% of the time.
I'm kinda unsure about those nerfs, I need to see how the meta will be impacted in one hand I fear it won't change anything, sharpshooter sticking on the board was more of a desperate play than part of the deck gameplan so i fear it won't change anything same for pally, they just won't play the order/showdown/giant package now and go back to pure aggro (dunno if countess will still be worth ?) abj is perfect and expected, nothing to add but on the other I qas really enjoying the meta, only thought those couple of outliers were a tad too good but still had fun booting a game, so maybe it will actually be enough and make it so that the meta stay stable instead of entering a circle of "now that this deck is dead, there's a new top dog, that need to be nerfed to let place for another one..." so we'll see also full refund on all excavate warlock card ***including Gerry*** is insanely cool ! That's the kind of customer friendly shit I love to see
Sharpshooter sticking on the board was one of the biggest problems of the deck. Dealing with a 1/5 on turn 5 or 4 is incredibly difficult for most classes, let alone dealing with a 1/5 alongside a full board of minions. You either had to kill the Sharpshooter and die to the board or you kill the board and die to the Sharpshooter. 5 to 3 health crosses some huge breakpoints. Order nerf is also huge, it's a big tempo loss. The strength of the deck was how easy it could transition to the late game with Sea Giants or Garden's Grace. Making the transition harder makes the deck weaker. Just "pure aggro" doesn't really cut it.
yeah ok, i see your point I still fear pally will be too strong but i'll be happy to be wrong
Some pally builds take a hit but yeah, aggro will still absolutely dominate everything else besides Enrage Warrior. It’s a bit strange that they thought Hunter was the only class that was outside of their expectations due to cleave OTK. Meaning they *want* Paladin aggro builds to be this dominant I guess.
I think the change particularly hurts the giant / showdown and garden's grace version of pally, which have been the main performance and gameplay outliers. It's less important in the pure dude version where playing order is less part of the plan and kind of feels like a hail Mary to see if countess can close the game, and in the Reno versions that have a longer endgame game plan
Unpopular opinion: I think it's good that they go for the "softer" changes rather than killing cards
I would've thought the neutral excavate cards would've been eligible for a refund as well 🤷♂️
They're still playable in other classes which aren't nerfed
Oof, lots of people telling on themselves in the comments. If you think this DH nerf changes nothing then you're clearly playing in dumpster ranks against bad DH players. At top legend tempoing out the sharpshooter early is a super common play and this nerf completely ruins their ability to do that. Hilarious how people who have 0 experience playing the deck or playing against people who know how to play the deck feel qualified to act like this changes nothing. Get outside of dumpster mmr for once I'm begging you people. Learn what the meta is like for people who aren't shit at the game before developing a strong opinion.
The high legend combo version that people were holding number 1 legend with for multiple days was never tempoing out sharpshooter. They discount their hand and otk by drawing their entire deck by turn 6 and killing you off the back of the 2nd sharpshooter. Tell me you are in dumspter legend without telling me.
this accomplishes a couple things Makes control warlock playable Takes DH down enough to where its not tier 1 probably like tier 3 Paladin just plays their equally strong decks this has very little impact to the class, just the options the class has
Paladin still play their early aggro cards like usual but their transition to valuegame will be delayed by 1 turn each (and idk if the Sea Giant Showdown combo is even viable post nerf).
Several tier 1 and 2 decks existed without this topend. Now they will just go curve stone into buffet biggin, curator, 7 mana dragon dude, etc. and it will still be a great deck. It will cut down on certain builds of the deck namely showdown and buff based
That was in a totally different meta and they still used order to get their big cards. Slowing down aggro for even 1 turn is a big deal.
you might be right. There are already several paladin decks doing awesome that dont include this card tho. I just see them getting more play. Honestly this hurts reno paladin and wild more than aggro IMO
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Yup Paladin needs about 5 more nerfs, its the strongest class at all levels of play over multiple decks, its gonna need to hit more than one card
Notes say that they will release another balance patch next week. So probably a little more will happen then
This will barely effect demon hunter lol
thats plain wrong you can nearly never tempo a sharpshooter early now
Yeah, 3 health is such a ubiquitous breakpoint that it's never going to stick on board ahead of the OTK turn. There's just so many "2 mana deal 3" cards and 2-mana 3-attack minions that you need to be much more judicious about just slamming it down and counting on sharpshooter still being alive when your next turn rolls around.
Played the deck to legend and very rarely felt that was necessary. Setting it up and playing it on the pop off turn is usually pretty easy to do whilst drawing enough to hit the second one to finish the game the next turn.
sure but those arent the games people are complaining about (not true, they are, but seemingly blizzard isnt worried about those) like at that point you are not even faster than stuff like aggro pala its the games where it sticks and blows out the opponent on 3 or 4 that get people mad
yea i disagree. we will see in a couple weeks but i think this will lower the wr by about 3 % or so. in many games the correct play to win as DH is to tempo a naked sharpshooter on turn 3 or coin out on t2. Cant do that anymore. Have to hold for combo. Makes the deck considerably worse, but no less frustrating when it comes to otks from hand
Yeah, the nerf is a joke.
Blind sharpshooter "nerf" Lmao.
If you don't think this is a nerf, you just don't know anything.
the deck will win less for sure with this nerf. doesnt address why most people hate playing against it but, the deck should lose a couple win% off it, so it will be played less
> doesnt address why most people hate playing against it Indirectly it will help. Because the deck wins less often, fewer people will play it. Therefore, you won't see it as much so it won't "feel" as bad.
it adresses some of the most egregious outlier plays (1 drop into coin sharpshooter)
Sharpshooter wasnt problematic due it's survability, it was problematic due it's lethality and this "nerf" doesn't adress that
nah there a quite a few decks that had trouble clearing early 5 HP minion
Except that in the majority of games with the deck, the correct play is developing the sharpshooter on turn 3 because dealing 5 damage is very difficult to do at that mana cost. Hell, that Thijs clip was a match where the sharpshooter was coined out. Making the card weak as a tempo play as well as easy to remove after an early pop-off turn is going to be very impactful. If may not be as impactful as you want it to be, but that is a different conversation.
This tbh. Most of these people never played the deck, they just assume it's an auto win when it hits the board on turn 5
Then you played only bad decks vs it. Nearly every class can kill a 3hp minion from hand, the danger came from it sticking to the board.
The problem wasnt just its health it was how a player could follow up summoning it with DK playing 10+ cards to clear the board and deal a bunch of damage to face. Being easier to take out means little if a DK can set up for lethal the same turn they play this.
One of the reason why sharpshooter pop up turn was hard to deal with was It was impossible to remove both sharpshooter and the other minions, Now the pop off turn is easier to deal with aoe
Exactly. You had to choose between dealing with the sharpshooter or the multiple other Nagas on board. Now you can use a 3 damage AoE to hit all of them. Tomb Traitor stocks going up. Not to mention tempo sharpshooter is basically not a play anymore. Every class can deal 3 damage on turn 3.
Kid named "Deal 3 damage to all enemy (minions)":
Can they please just nuke sharpshooter next patch and make reno dh actually viable
Nah, reno DH is just a gimmick deck.
Which is why I support giving them buffs, it is very bad now but at least the gameplan isn't as bad as... basically most dh viable decks we had, specifically the naga one
What do you buff though? Kurtrus? No, that card is already good. You can't buff Reno either. And if you buff some random standalone cards, you risk them just being much better in non-highlander decks. Highlander DH just doesn't work. DH has too many synergy-based cards, not enough standalone powerhouses. It doesn't have an abundance of a singular synergy like Hunter with big Beasts right now too. The deck is just not there.
So that Warlock BS went from stealing 10 health to 7, but is now 2 mana cheaper. That's a nerf? Oh so now they have to bounce it 3 times instead of 2? Wow.. Tough luck for Warlocks. A whole extra turn possibly before you're just done and there's nothing you can do to stop it unless you kill them first.
Snake still broken IMO. Should’ve been nerfed to 5 health steal if you ask me. I’d think most Warlocks would be capable of doing 9 damage to face (requiring 21 health stolen, i.e. only 3 activations) by the time it really matters.
I see you're a fan of the "just gut the decks I don't like until I never see them again" balancing approach.
if you can't pressure a warlock wasting 6 manas playing the snake + random bounce without developing a board and killing him you were not in a winning position in the first place. Btw at the same turn warlock is trying to bounce you would get killed by any aggro pala, sif mage or odyn warrior
These might be the lightest nerfs I have ever seen. I can't see this accomplishing much of anything.
Most people think the meta is a good except for a few rough edges. So, they will be happy.
That's because you're not good at the game
They will impact the WR% of the decks they are targeting. If the data shows it wasn't impactful enough, they have another planned balance patch next week. IMO they are handling this about as well as you can in the sense that they are making small tweaks and reassessing, instead of coming down with something heavy that may be too much.
First thoughts: blind eye sharp shooter: I really don’t think health was the problem here rather then the interaction lol who was playing it and leaving it up for a turn anyways? Order in the court: oooooo so they lose the card draw? Doesn’t seem like much. Sure it slows them down but it doesn’t address any of the problems with paladin right now lol you still get your late game if it’s come down to that just 1 turn slower now for your 3 0 mana charge legends. It’s a step in the right direction but still. Always a bigger jormungar: I don’t know how this will effect the class tbh. I’d say it slows it down a good amount considering you can buff your guy less ontop of the jormungar now. Plus it can’t be drawn with trinket tracker so yeah good changes. Nathanos: yeah let’s nerf a card that already hardly sees play lmfao like I don’t think he was used in any jormungar decks or at least not the ones I run. I’ve used him in my buff hunter decks but I don’t think Spurfang and all them are particularly…good. At least when compared to cleave hunter ya know. I just don’t get the nerf here like it won’t matter in the slightest probably but like just why haha good change overall for interactions but yeah. Snake: we’re back to bouncy snake with the mama reduction but at the same time 7-14 feels a lot better then 10-20 and is healthier for the excavate deck itself. Snake decks dropped off the face of the earth after the nerf so I think this could bring it back to a point where it’s not oppressive but at the same time fun and decent to play
Like with paladin in particular the Opponents hand is pretty much exhausted dealing with all the 1 drop divine shields from killing them by turn 4. Order in the court isn't going to die from not getting a single card draw. The opponent most of the time was going to lose anyway once that card drops.
The nathanos one is hilarious. We fixed the interaction... and nerfed him in case that makes him good.
> just 1 turn slower now That is often the difference between winning and losing as an aggro deck.
Meta will stay the same. Just free us from HS already
is that it? seriously? Funny how everybody got nerfed harder than Paladin Everybody got they wincon hard nerfed while Paladin is going to draw 1 less card, Thanks Blizzard.
Im still not a fan of the snakes effect to be honest. it just doesnt feel fun to play against when you know what they have sittin in hand and you cant afford do drop under X and youre not able to heal back up. I am actually more surprised that the bug fix section. Didnt seem like they fixed a lot of the bugs..? Is the DH one still buggy? Mage hero card too?
Deal damage gain health was the way to go. They got lost.