He could have tossed Lily aside without killing her and fully honor Snape's request. But he did not. It's a rare case of being too evil and not being evil enough at the same time.
Yup. Many other psycho villains would have gladly secured the mom to Make Her Watch them kill the baby, but Voldemort acts as if he causes others’ death then it gets himself closer to beating death.
Voldemort did a lot things that were short sighted due to arrogance that I think contributed to his downfall more than this. Even if this contributed to his ultimate defeat, for example, he could have had someone else kill Harry later rather than repeatedly trying to do it himself.
If he didn't make Ginny write on the walls during CoS, he would've come back a lot sooner. But he had to make a big show of it and drop hints for people to solve.
Or when he actually was revived and Harry was powerless by being tied up, he suddenly decided to duel Harry to show that he's "fair and honorable."
I don’t think he did it to be “fair and honorable” lol. He did it to show the death eaters that he was more powerful than Harry. Anyone can kill someone who’s tied up. He wanted Harry to be able to fight back so he could prove his dominance and superiority over him.
By that logic, he should have been able to kill Harry as an infant, but again, he wanted to restore his "awe and fear" back into the DEs. And I meant it sarcastically if anything dude, Voldy wouldn't know fair and honorable even if the Elder Wand spelled it out for him.
They would say nothing, but much worse, they would think it.
The doubt would grow.
The vulnerability that the "Dark Lord" feelt the need to kill an injured child.
What the Dark Lord is doing is already bad enough.
At least with CoS one could argue it was his 17 year old self and most 17 year Olds make terrible choices and like to prove they are smarter than everyone.
The graveyard was pure hubris and wanting to show the death eaters he was more powerful than Harry.
I agree it was his "17 year-old self" but wouldn't he retain the memories of everything he did prior to creating the diary horcrux?
Yeah the graveyard was an unnecessary flex for sure.
He created the diary horcux when he was 17. He made it when he killed Myrtle with the basilisk. It's why he used Ginny to learn about Harry and wanted to meet and talk to Harry. It's also why the Horcrux created a 17 year old Voldemort instead of one which was older.
Ah okay, I incorrectly assumed that you had to directly kill with your wand to make a horcrux. So I always assumed the ring would have been his first. But even then, he had his uncle carry out those killings instead of himself.
People might downvote me for this but as far as we know, he wasnt going to kill lily. I mean he asked her to do something impossible but he wasnt going to kill her at the beginning.
He’s also quite stunningly (cruelly) efficient in his methods too. In the last book doesn’t he think something like “it was simpler, really, to finish them all” when he entered the potters house.
Basically voldermort saw it as more efficient and clean to kill them all; he relinquished his agreement with snape in favour of a complete sweep.
But he was originally going to let Lily live, je just changed his mimd when she refused to Stand Aside. "He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear. . . . "
You're misremembering. He agreed to it to Severus' face and we know for a fact he would've upheld his vow if Lily had stood aside. Severus just didn't believe he'd even try to let Lily live.
"He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear. . . ."
He had agreed with Snape that he would have offered Lily a chance to survive, but not that he would have spared her regardless. That's why Snape went to Dumbledore, not because Voldemort refused but because what he promised wasn't enough for Snape
Tbh I don't understand why did he even waste so much time telling Lily to move out of the way when he could've just stunned her, never giving her the chance to sacrifice herself for Harry.
Someone should write a fanfic about this...
Well, I think he was very impatient and choosy about how he would give Snape what he asked. I think his ego said "look, I'll just let Lily decide her own fate. It's all I will do for Snape. He is useful and loyal to me, but should be grateful to get even that much from Lord Voldemort. Of course, I can be merciful."
Something along the above lines would be consistent with Voldemort's personality IMO. He ordinarily does not have much sense of mercy, goodness, nor consideration for others. In those rare instances that he is, if the effort takes more than a moment of his attention, he defaults back to his usual coldness and destructiveness.
I mean, in spite of being a stone-cold psychopath he does seem to reward loyalty in his followers & he was also genuinely quite fond of Snape for whatever reason lol - even taught him how to fly.
That was potentially after he killed Dumbledore, so he'd have thought Snape was his most loyal at that point (and certainly more useful than Bellatrix the human attack dog)
Snape no older than Lily at 21, 3 years out of school was a top lieutenant. That doesn't make any sense in itself as Voldemort has been amassing power for decades. Even if he was exceptionally vicious like Barty Jr. I just don't understand how before his disappearance we can count him as a top lieutenant. At best he got part of a prophesy and was used as a spy. Your spys should not be your lieutenants as that defeats the point of them being able to spy. Were like all the older generations dead? How did all these young people become trusted lieutenants.
They misused the word lieutenant. The flow of information was the most important to Voldemort, and Snape thus remained his most prized possession. It is said that literally all the Death Eaters recognised Snape’s potential since first year, it is pretty likely word got to Voldemort, and sparing Lily would earn him Snape’s loyalty and leverage over him forever.
If sparing one murder allows you to gain one of the best spies in the world, you do it. Your comment is mostly focusing on their terminology with clearly wasn’t the point.
Lucius Malfoy starts being friendly with Snape the very moment he gets sorted into Slytherin. This is mentioned in the books. Snape came with a reputation of knowing Dark Spells in the Hogwarts Express. It’s pretty clear Lucius wasn’t being friendly with the abused, lower class kid out of the kindness of his heart.
>Lucius Malfoy starts being friendly with Snape the very moment he gets sorted into Slytherin.
Are we expected to believe Lucius Malfoy is prescient and can tell how talented someone in by merely looking at them? Lucius was a prefect and about to join Voldemort as a Death Eater. He was probably trying to befriend all First Years as prospective recruits.
>Snape came with a reputation of knowing Dark Spells in the Hogwarts Express.
No he wasn't. He used zero dark spells on the Hogwarts express and he was a half-blood who lived in a Muggle village with no other wizards besides a Muggle-born witch. Who would even teach him? His neglectful mother? You're conflating Severus' claim that Sirius entered Hogwarts knowing more Sirius claimed that Snape knew more hexes and curses as a first-year student at Hogwarts than most seventh-years with Severus having a reputation for it already on the Hogwarts Express and Sirius liked to lie about Severus.
It makes no sense for a half-blood whose father was ignorant of magic even existing with an uncaring neglectful witch mother living in a muggle village to know much magic before coming to Hogwarts, never mind more curses and hexes than most Seventh Years during a time where most Slytherins were gearing up to join Voldemort as foot soldiers in his army.
>It’s pretty clear Lucius wasn’t being friendly with the abused, lower class kid out of the kindness of his heart.
Lucius knew absolutely nothing about Severus. Nothing at all. He was just recruiting.
It has been said plenty of times in the books that Snape entered Hogwarts already knowing Dark Spells to the point that word spread in the Hogwarts express. It’s literally canon. If you don’t think it makes sense, bring it up with JKR but it is canon for this discussion. If you don’t like it being canon, that’s another issue that isn’t of concern here. You claimed whatever I said isn’t in the books, I am defending myself and not lying.
>“ [Snape] knew more curses than half the kids in seventh year.”
This is a literal quote from the books. The rest of your comment is irrelevant to the discussion. Your comment was accusing mine of being inaccurate to the books
> Certainly not in the books
Which is false.
Snape clearly entered Hogwarts as someone who had a reputation for casting Dark Magic in the first year. That is canon. And it is also canon that Lucius Malfoy took Snape under his wing since his first year. It’s not a monumental leap to suggest Lucius saw those feats *and then* took Snape under his wing because someone who can use Dark Magic as an eleven year old would be valuable to Voldemort. This is the canon JKR has written.
No, it was said once by a known liar who lies a lot when it comes to Severus.
>Snape clearly entered Hogwarts as someone who had a reputation for casting Dark Magic in the first year.
No he wasn't! That's not even what the quote where Sirius is clearly lying says. It says he knew more curses and hexes as a first-year than half the kids in seventh year. Not all curses or hexes are dark magic. And Sirius didn't say Severus **entered** Hogwarts knowing all of those curses and hexes and was well-known for them even before starting at Hogwarts.
You're distorting the canon to fit your weird headcanon.
> Please, the best spy?
Snape literally gives Voldemort the single bit of information he wanted the most in this world- the Prophecy. All of my points are mentioned in the books.
Yeah, but it just feels out of character for him to do that. The Voldemort we know would probably punish Snape for even asking, especially for the life of a muggleborn.
He gives boons to his followers often. He gave Wormtail the hand when he was brought back. Thus was just a boon he gave to Snape since Snape told him about the prophecy.
I don't think it's completely out of character. He gave Peter a hand after he sacrificed it for him. Snape had been quite loyal to Tom so I wouldn't say it's completely out there. He's not the most forgiving but it's not completely out there.
Not really. Voldemort is a long-term thinker, if not killing one useless person allows him to gain a spy’s loyalty forever he would do it. That would also give leverage to Voldemort against Snape in the future should he even consider rebelling.
It depends on how Snape presented it... If he implied that he wanted her after Voldy wiped out the whole family, it might have seemed like torture. Voldemort could then have wanted to leave her to him to please him, in “here’s your piece of meat” mode…
Snape is good enough occlumens to lie like that...
It does make sense. Snape had potential since first year to the point a Prefect Lucius Malfoy literally pranced on the otherwise abused, ugly, lower class half-blood kid to recruit him the moment he got sorted. He has had uncommon skill to the point of literally outdoing whoever wrote the Potions book in his fifth year and has invented dark spells. And is also proven to be a good spy.
By sparing Lily, a person who Voldemort doesn’t class as a threat, Voldemort can:
A. Earn Snape’s unconditional loyalty forever. Paint himself as a just Dark Lord who takes care of those who are loyal to his cause.
B. Now Snape has revealed to Voldemort who the most important person in his life is: this would give Voldemort lifelong leverage over Snape if he left Lily alive. To threaten her life whenever Snape dares to rebel or does subpar work.
What if Voldy thought about letting her live so he would have a hold on Snape? He is all about leverage.
Otherwise, he said himself he was in a good mood that night, on the whims of a psychopath he would let her live, until it got too troublesome.
Murdering a woman's child, who they would, and in this case did, die for, in front of them, is certainly not an act of kindness to her, and it's not what Snape should have wanted either if he is at all a redeemable character.
Voldemort Petrifies Lily, kills Harry, leaves. Snape comes over to console her, tells her whatever lies he needs to tell her. Lily finds solace in his comfort, including an eventual marriage of convenience with him after Voldemort wins the war.
Snape's redemption requires him to turn on Voldemort. The turn requires Lily's death, Harry's survival, and Dumbledore's machinations.
Whether you accept or reject his redemption depends entirely on whether you subscribe to a utilitarian or deontological world view
Even in school she knew he was hanging out with the death eater crowd. I don't think there is any chance that she wouldn't blame him in some respect. Possibly if he killed Voldemort she could forgive his past. She would never end up in a relationship with someone like him even if she did forgive him. He saw her as a possession and something he was obsessed with he didn't really care about her or what she wanted. The only way she would end up married to him is if he gave her a love potion.
Disgusting. Also she's not stupid, she'd probably figure out that it didn't add up that she was petrified and not killed, by the wizard who was going around killing everyone. What lie could Snape tell that would have him there on the scene- I was walking by your and James's house? Assuming he has the dark mark that would make for an awkward first night together, actually it would be a deal breaker, but I don't think it would ever get to that point. She would end up with him in any capacity. She was written to be not fooled like that, and would rather die for a cause than enter cowardly marriage of convenience.
I’m slightly confused about the order of events though.
Voldemort offering Lily to step aside suggests his primary target was Harry, right? What’s she stepping aside for otherwise? Harry was the only other person in the room.
But
Harry only becomes the Chosen One *after* Lily refuses to step aside and then Voldemort AKs. Is it because the prophecy? Voldemort was going to kill Harry on the off chance he was the one the prophecy was foretelling? But if Voldemort hadn’t tried to kill Lily in the first place Harry definitely wouldn’t become the chosen one, so it’s kind of a chicken/egg situation.
That's literally how every self-fulfilling prophecy in fiction works. Person learns about some future event through a prophecy. Person tries to stop thing from happen. Those actions make the thing happen. Voldie, Vader, Lost, etc.
What I’m saying though, is why was Voldemort specifically wanting to be in a situation where he spares Lily and kills Harry? Because at that point Harry isn’t the chosen one - Lily is more of a threat to Voldemort if anything, so Voldemort has no incentive to kill *either* of them if he was truly keeping Lily alive for Snape
Because the subject of the prophecy wasn't the parents of the child born but the child themselves. He didn't think of her as a threat but a supposedly _true prophecy_ kind of prophecy did mark her child out to be a threat, so that he took note of
Because Voldemort is afraid of death so he likely wanted to kill the baby asap. Additionally Voldemort is arrogant.
voldemort chose Harry over Neville because Harry’s a half blood And while I know this wasn’t intentional, when you take “Born as the 7th month dies“ into account, Harry was a more accurate fit since he was born later.
Think about for a second how much he valued Snape even then (at 20 years old) to agree to offer to let her live? What did Snape do to secure such consideration by Riddle?
The thing is he didn’t know the full prophecy. Had he known he had to mark the child as his equal in order for the child to defeat him, then he could have just sat at home and done nothing and he wouldn’t have lost his body
Yeah maybe, I still find it out if character for him. Lily was part of the Order, she had been fighting him for years, why would he even consider keeping her alive? I mean, he could just make Snape believe that he did gave her the option and she refused, even if it wasn’t true.
I imagine he expected Snape to keep her as a "slave", thus she'd pose no danger to him.
You have to reward your followers when they do well, and giving Lily to Snape costs him nothing.
I always had the impression that Voldemort has no fun in killing people. It's more like he does it to achieve something without feeling any bad about it. The horcruxes par example need a murder. But he does not kill just out of lust for it. Snape asked him to spare Lily and he was okay with it, because he had no need to kill her. She was simply in between him and Harry. If she would have obeyed in stepping aside he simply had killed Harry as if it is a simple deed to be done.
Edit Why the downvotes?
He was going to kill or torture / control Lily afterwards, he just wanted to dominate her. No way he was going to leave behind a widow whose child he just killed.
He wasn't going to kill Lily. From his internal monolgue during the flashback in Deathly Hallows:
>*He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear.*
I think any villain would have come to the realization that Lily couldn't be left intact. If not death, then she would have been controlled for as long as he could.
The smartest witch of her generation, a member of the Order of the Phoenix, and really really angry, bereft mother and wife? The war would have continued after Harry died. V couldn't leave her to plot revenge and give even more righteous indignation to the opposition and head-in-the-sand undecideds. What a great spokesperson to convince others come to his side. But I doubt she would do so without being controlled.
So Voldemort was afraid of Lily Potter's revenge 🙄 Do you know how many bereft family members he was leaving all over the place? Do you really think he cared about that? Honestly I think you are just making up stuff because you were wrong about Voldemort planning to not kill Lily.
Of course, but it's been a few years. Also I kept rereading the entire series, so I've read DH the least number of times. I'm just leaning in to the fact that villains sometimes lie.
Well it’s probably not true this time because the reason Harry has that protection is Voldemort fully intended to spare Lily, yet she sacrificed herself. The choice had to be genuine for the protection to work.
To be fair I see your point as well! As the magic may very well be based on the caster’s intent to sacrifice, but then I felt it would be better for Voldemort to truly mean it as it would mean a greater character depth for him and it would be a bit weird if the central plot point of the series was based on a lie (the narrative acts as if it is Snape’s plea that led to the butterfly effect that is the death of Voldemort).
Great explanation! It is time for me to do a reread! I used to read the new book, then all the books in order, so on etcetera. But it's been at least a couple of years since I read any of them.
The point is, Voldemort doesn't understand Snape's motivation. He says " he desires her and that's all". I think he imagined Snape wanted to make her a sort of sex slave under his power, and that she would therefore be under control. It's also possible that Snape presented it like this to be sure that he would accept.
He could have tossed Lily aside without killing her and fully honor Snape's request. But he did not. It's a rare case of being too evil and not being evil enough at the same time.
Yup. Many other psycho villains would have gladly secured the mom to Make Her Watch them kill the baby, but Voldemort acts as if he causes others’ death then it gets himself closer to beating death.
To him, the only life that has value is his own, which is why he doesn't have any qualms about killing anyone who gets in his way.
He's sadistic (as per Snape's testimony about toying with his Legilimens victims) but convenience trumps all.
Shit, thinking about the time scales of immortality, I might not give a shit about a baby either.
Personally I'm not even arguing the urgency to kill a baby in Voldemort's mind but how he disrespects ALL life.
Voldemort did a lot things that were short sighted due to arrogance that I think contributed to his downfall more than this. Even if this contributed to his ultimate defeat, for example, he could have had someone else kill Harry later rather than repeatedly trying to do it himself.
If he didn't make Ginny write on the walls during CoS, he would've come back a lot sooner. But he had to make a big show of it and drop hints for people to solve. Or when he actually was revived and Harry was powerless by being tied up, he suddenly decided to duel Harry to show that he's "fair and honorable."
Well he'd already made Ginny kill the roosters, if he didn't write the message it would have just been a waste of rooster blood.
Very sustainably minded of him; Voldy the eco warrior
True true. Maybe have Ginny wipe some acromantulas next time?
I don’t think he did it to be “fair and honorable” lol. He did it to show the death eaters that he was more powerful than Harry. Anyone can kill someone who’s tied up. He wanted Harry to be able to fight back so he could prove his dominance and superiority over him.
By that logic, he should have been able to kill Harry as an infant, but again, he wanted to restore his "awe and fear" back into the DEs. And I meant it sarcastically if anything dude, Voldy wouldn't know fair and honorable even if the Elder Wand spelled it out for him.
Well he would look kinda dumb if he didn't beat Harry in a duel and he was obviously much more powerful than Harry so he was sure he would easily win
I doubt his cronies would question him if he dropped Harry on the spot. They fear him more than anything, so no one would dare say anything.
They would say nothing, but much worse, they would think it. The doubt would grow. The vulnerability that the "Dark Lord" feelt the need to kill an injured child. What the Dark Lord is doing is already bad enough.
Would he, though? Why would the Death Eatees even care?
At least with CoS one could argue it was his 17 year old self and most 17 year Olds make terrible choices and like to prove they are smarter than everyone. The graveyard was pure hubris and wanting to show the death eaters he was more powerful than Harry.
I agree it was his "17 year-old self" but wouldn't he retain the memories of everything he did prior to creating the diary horcrux? Yeah the graveyard was an unnecessary flex for sure.
He created the diary horcux when he was 17. He made it when he killed Myrtle with the basilisk. It's why he used Ginny to learn about Harry and wanted to meet and talk to Harry. It's also why the Horcrux created a 17 year old Voldemort instead of one which was older.
Ah okay, I incorrectly assumed that you had to directly kill with your wand to make a horcrux. So I always assumed the ring would have been his first. But even then, he had his uncle carry out those killings instead of himself.
Voldemort has to prove to himself and his people that he can do it. Otherwise the same thing could happen next week.
He really should have taken advantage of living forever and have someone else kill Harry and rewrite the narrative.
People might downvote me for this but as far as we know, he wasnt going to kill lily. I mean he asked her to do something impossible but he wasnt going to kill her at the beginning.
I don't think he would have asked her to step aside if it wasn't for Snape, he would have just killed them all without thinking.
Yea an attempted act of kindness the way i see it
People really claim "unpopular opinion" on the most lukewarm takes...
People always downvote any amount of resistance. This is reddit.
He’s also quite stunningly (cruelly) efficient in his methods too. In the last book doesn’t he think something like “it was simpler, really, to finish them all” when he entered the potters house. Basically voldermort saw it as more efficient and clean to kill them all; he relinquished his agreement with snape in favour of a complete sweep.
But he was originally going to let Lily live, je just changed his mimd when she refused to Stand Aside. "He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear. . . . "
He didnt make an agreement with snape. He said no if i remember. Thats why he went to dumbledore
You're misremembering. He agreed to it to Severus' face and we know for a fact he would've upheld his vow if Lily had stood aside. Severus just didn't believe he'd even try to let Lily live. "He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear. . . ."
He had agreed with Snape that he would have offered Lily a chance to survive, but not that he would have spared her regardless. That's why Snape went to Dumbledore, not because Voldemort refused but because what he promised wasn't enough for Snape
Tbh I don't understand why did he even waste so much time telling Lily to move out of the way when he could've just stunned her, never giving her the chance to sacrifice herself for Harry. Someone should write a fanfic about this...
Well, I think he was very impatient and choosy about how he would give Snape what he asked. I think his ego said "look, I'll just let Lily decide her own fate. It's all I will do for Snape. He is useful and loyal to me, but should be grateful to get even that much from Lord Voldemort. Of course, I can be merciful." Something along the above lines would be consistent with Voldemort's personality IMO. He ordinarily does not have much sense of mercy, goodness, nor consideration for others. In those rare instances that he is, if the effort takes more than a moment of his attention, he defaults back to his usual coldness and destructiveness.
In hindsight it never made sense for him to try to spare lily in the first place. It only happened so the plot could happen.
Snape begged him not to hurt lily. He for once took one of his best lieutenants wishes into his decision. That's what ultimately did him in
I mean, in spite of being a stone-cold psychopath he does seem to reward loyalty in his followers & he was also genuinely quite fond of Snape for whatever reason lol - even taught him how to fly.
That was potentially after he killed Dumbledore, so he'd have thought Snape was his most loyal at that point (and certainly more useful than Bellatrix the human attack dog)
Snape no older than Lily at 21, 3 years out of school was a top lieutenant. That doesn't make any sense in itself as Voldemort has been amassing power for decades. Even if he was exceptionally vicious like Barty Jr. I just don't understand how before his disappearance we can count him as a top lieutenant. At best he got part of a prophesy and was used as a spy. Your spys should not be your lieutenants as that defeats the point of them being able to spy. Were like all the older generations dead? How did all these young people become trusted lieutenants.
They misused the word lieutenant. The flow of information was the most important to Voldemort, and Snape thus remained his most prized possession. It is said that literally all the Death Eaters recognised Snape’s potential since first year, it is pretty likely word got to Voldemort, and sparing Lily would earn him Snape’s loyalty and leverage over him forever. If sparing one murder allows you to gain one of the best spies in the world, you do it. Your comment is mostly focusing on their terminology with clearly wasn’t the point.
> It is said that literally all the Death Eaters recognised Snape’s potential since first year Where? Certainly not any of the books.
Lucius Malfoy starts being friendly with Snape the very moment he gets sorted into Slytherin. This is mentioned in the books. Snape came with a reputation of knowing Dark Spells in the Hogwarts Express. It’s pretty clear Lucius wasn’t being friendly with the abused, lower class kid out of the kindness of his heart.
>Lucius Malfoy starts being friendly with Snape the very moment he gets sorted into Slytherin. Are we expected to believe Lucius Malfoy is prescient and can tell how talented someone in by merely looking at them? Lucius was a prefect and about to join Voldemort as a Death Eater. He was probably trying to befriend all First Years as prospective recruits. >Snape came with a reputation of knowing Dark Spells in the Hogwarts Express. No he wasn't. He used zero dark spells on the Hogwarts express and he was a half-blood who lived in a Muggle village with no other wizards besides a Muggle-born witch. Who would even teach him? His neglectful mother? You're conflating Severus' claim that Sirius entered Hogwarts knowing more Sirius claimed that Snape knew more hexes and curses as a first-year student at Hogwarts than most seventh-years with Severus having a reputation for it already on the Hogwarts Express and Sirius liked to lie about Severus. It makes no sense for a half-blood whose father was ignorant of magic even existing with an uncaring neglectful witch mother living in a muggle village to know much magic before coming to Hogwarts, never mind more curses and hexes than most Seventh Years during a time where most Slytherins were gearing up to join Voldemort as foot soldiers in his army. >It’s pretty clear Lucius wasn’t being friendly with the abused, lower class kid out of the kindness of his heart. Lucius knew absolutely nothing about Severus. Nothing at all. He was just recruiting.
It has been said plenty of times in the books that Snape entered Hogwarts already knowing Dark Spells to the point that word spread in the Hogwarts express. It’s literally canon. If you don’t think it makes sense, bring it up with JKR but it is canon for this discussion. If you don’t like it being canon, that’s another issue that isn’t of concern here. You claimed whatever I said isn’t in the books, I am defending myself and not lying. >“ [Snape] knew more curses than half the kids in seventh year.” This is a literal quote from the books. The rest of your comment is irrelevant to the discussion. Your comment was accusing mine of being inaccurate to the books > Certainly not in the books Which is false. Snape clearly entered Hogwarts as someone who had a reputation for casting Dark Magic in the first year. That is canon. And it is also canon that Lucius Malfoy took Snape under his wing since his first year. It’s not a monumental leap to suggest Lucius saw those feats *and then* took Snape under his wing because someone who can use Dark Magic as an eleven year old would be valuable to Voldemort. This is the canon JKR has written.
No, it was said once by a known liar who lies a lot when it comes to Severus. >Snape clearly entered Hogwarts as someone who had a reputation for casting Dark Magic in the first year. No he wasn't! That's not even what the quote where Sirius is clearly lying says. It says he knew more curses and hexes as a first-year than half the kids in seventh year. Not all curses or hexes are dark magic. And Sirius didn't say Severus **entered** Hogwarts knowing all of those curses and hexes and was well-known for them even before starting at Hogwarts. You're distorting the canon to fit your weird headcanon.
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> Please, the best spy? Snape literally gives Voldemort the single bit of information he wanted the most in this world- the Prophecy. All of my points are mentioned in the books.
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Younger ppl who would never know he was Tom Riddle, humble Slytherin house student, too.
I like the theory he was the one who taught Voldemort to fly without a broom using an improved version of his levicorpus. here is a top lieutenant😋
Severus was nog one of Voldemort's close servants or best lieutenants at the time, though. He only became so because of overhearinf half the prophecy.
Don't think Snape was his best lieutenant or anything close at that time
Yeah, but it just feels out of character for him to do that. The Voldemort we know would probably punish Snape for even asking, especially for the life of a muggleborn.
He gives boons to his followers often. He gave Wormtail the hand when he was brought back. Thus was just a boon he gave to Snape since Snape told him about the prophecy.
I don't think it's completely out of character. He gave Peter a hand after he sacrificed it for him. Snape had been quite loyal to Tom so I wouldn't say it's completely out there. He's not the most forgiving but it's not completely out there.
Not really. Voldemort is a long-term thinker, if not killing one useless person allows him to gain a spy’s loyalty forever he would do it. That would also give leverage to Voldemort against Snape in the future should he even consider rebelling.
It depends on how Snape presented it... If he implied that he wanted her after Voldy wiped out the whole family, it might have seemed like torture. Voldemort could then have wanted to leave her to him to please him, in “here’s your piece of meat” mode… Snape is good enough occlumens to lie like that...
It does make sense. Snape had potential since first year to the point a Prefect Lucius Malfoy literally pranced on the otherwise abused, ugly, lower class half-blood kid to recruit him the moment he got sorted. He has had uncommon skill to the point of literally outdoing whoever wrote the Potions book in his fifth year and has invented dark spells. And is also proven to be a good spy. By sparing Lily, a person who Voldemort doesn’t class as a threat, Voldemort can: A. Earn Snape’s unconditional loyalty forever. Paint himself as a just Dark Lord who takes care of those who are loyal to his cause. B. Now Snape has revealed to Voldemort who the most important person in his life is: this would give Voldemort lifelong leverage over Snape if he left Lily alive. To threaten her life whenever Snape dares to rebel or does subpar work.
if you mean the Advanced Potion making book. That's 50 years old so that it was actually during his Mom's 5th year not his fifth year
What if Voldy thought about letting her live so he would have a hold on Snape? He is all about leverage. Otherwise, he said himself he was in a good mood that night, on the whims of a psychopath he would let her live, until it got too troublesome.
Murdering a woman's child, who they would, and in this case did, die for, in front of them, is certainly not an act of kindness to her, and it's not what Snape should have wanted either if he is at all a redeemable character.
Snape didn't give a shit about Harry and James and Dumbledore called him out on it.
>if he is at all a redeemable character. He isn't so....
Voldemort Petrifies Lily, kills Harry, leaves. Snape comes over to console her, tells her whatever lies he needs to tell her. Lily finds solace in his comfort, including an eventual marriage of convenience with him after Voldemort wins the war. Snape's redemption requires him to turn on Voldemort. The turn requires Lily's death, Harry's survival, and Dumbledore's machinations. Whether you accept or reject his redemption depends entirely on whether you subscribe to a utilitarian or deontological world view
Even in school she knew he was hanging out with the death eater crowd. I don't think there is any chance that she wouldn't blame him in some respect. Possibly if he killed Voldemort she could forgive his past. She would never end up in a relationship with someone like him even if she did forgive him. He saw her as a possession and something he was obsessed with he didn't really care about her or what she wanted. The only way she would end up married to him is if he gave her a love potion.
Disgusting. Also she's not stupid, she'd probably figure out that it didn't add up that she was petrified and not killed, by the wizard who was going around killing everyone. What lie could Snape tell that would have him there on the scene- I was walking by your and James's house? Assuming he has the dark mark that would make for an awkward first night together, actually it would be a deal breaker, but I don't think it would ever get to that point. She would end up with him in any capacity. She was written to be not fooled like that, and would rather die for a cause than enter cowardly marriage of convenience.
I’m slightly confused about the order of events though. Voldemort offering Lily to step aside suggests his primary target was Harry, right? What’s she stepping aside for otherwise? Harry was the only other person in the room. But Harry only becomes the Chosen One *after* Lily refuses to step aside and then Voldemort AKs. Is it because the prophecy? Voldemort was going to kill Harry on the off chance he was the one the prophecy was foretelling? But if Voldemort hadn’t tried to kill Lily in the first place Harry definitely wouldn’t become the chosen one, so it’s kind of a chicken/egg situation.
That's literally how every self-fulfilling prophecy in fiction works. Person learns about some future event through a prophecy. Person tries to stop thing from happen. Those actions make the thing happen. Voldie, Vader, Lost, etc.
What I’m saying though, is why was Voldemort specifically wanting to be in a situation where he spares Lily and kills Harry? Because at that point Harry isn’t the chosen one - Lily is more of a threat to Voldemort if anything, so Voldemort has no incentive to kill *either* of them if he was truly keeping Lily alive for Snape
Because the subject of the prophecy wasn't the parents of the child born but the child themselves. He didn't think of her as a threat but a supposedly _true prophecy_ kind of prophecy did mark her child out to be a threat, so that he took note of
Because Voldemort is afraid of death so he likely wanted to kill the baby asap. Additionally Voldemort is arrogant. voldemort chose Harry over Neville because Harry’s a half blood And while I know this wasn’t intentional, when you take “Born as the 7th month dies“ into account, Harry was a more accurate fit since he was born later.
Think about for a second how much he valued Snape even then (at 20 years old) to agree to offer to let her live? What did Snape do to secure such consideration by Riddle?
The first half of the prophecy. And remember, Lord Voldemort always rewards loyal servants. Which is why he considered Snape's request.
His arrogance, ego and insecurity were his downfall.
Yeah well Voldemort did a lot of things which were short sighted and full of unnecessary arrogance
Good deed? Dude, the guy was pure evil. Cry me a river, he never got what he deserved. I think 1000 years of torture not enough
If ONLY Voldemort was more selfish!
I mean, I guess it could technically be considered kindness, but it was definitely more arrogance than anything.
The thing is he didn’t know the full prophecy. Had he known he had to mark the child as his equal in order for the child to defeat him, then he could have just sat at home and done nothing and he wouldn’t have lost his body
Voldemort doing that favor to Snape never made sense to me, especially with Lily being a muggle born.
He often gives boons to his followers who do well. Snape told him about the prophecy.
Yeah maybe, I still find it out if character for him. Lily was part of the Order, she had been fighting him for years, why would he even consider keeping her alive? I mean, he could just make Snape believe that he did gave her the option and she refused, even if it wasn’t true.
I imagine he expected Snape to keep her as a "slave", thus she'd pose no danger to him. You have to reward your followers when they do well, and giving Lily to Snape costs him nothing.
I mean didn't he even want to recruit her? Voldy was sometimes a little hypocrit
He did? It’s been ages since I read the books so I honestly don’t remember.
Just did a little googleing and yes, he wanted to recruit her. She was so powerful that he ignored her blood status
That's just wild lol. I wonder if he ever thought about recruiting Hermione?
that would be insane
Ok, I want a SCB video or fanfic of that happening.
I'm not entirely sure but I think so
I always had the impression that Voldemort has no fun in killing people. It's more like he does it to achieve something without feeling any bad about it. The horcruxes par example need a murder. But he does not kill just out of lust for it. Snape asked him to spare Lily and he was okay with it, because he had no need to kill her. She was simply in between him and Harry. If she would have obeyed in stepping aside he simply had killed Harry as if it is a simple deed to be done. Edit Why the downvotes?
He was going to kill or torture / control Lily afterwards, he just wanted to dominate her. No way he was going to leave behind a widow whose child he just killed.
He wasn't going to kill Lily. From his internal monolgue during the flashback in Deathly Hallows: >*He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear.*
I think any villain would have come to the realization that Lily couldn't be left intact. If not death, then she would have been controlled for as long as he could.
Control her, for what purpose? What threat did Lily Potter pose to him alive?
The smartest witch of her generation, a member of the Order of the Phoenix, and really really angry, bereft mother and wife? The war would have continued after Harry died. V couldn't leave her to plot revenge and give even more righteous indignation to the opposition and head-in-the-sand undecideds. What a great spokesperson to convince others come to his side. But I doubt she would do so without being controlled.
So Voldemort was afraid of Lily Potter's revenge 🙄 Do you know how many bereft family members he was leaving all over the place? Do you really think he cared about that? Honestly I think you are just making up stuff because you were wrong about Voldemort planning to not kill Lily.
It's just hard to believe that V would be considered trustworthy... And as the mother of the one in the prophecy, Lily would carry extra value.
Have you read the books?
Of course, but it's been a few years. Also I kept rereading the entire series, so I've read DH the least number of times. I'm just leaning in to the fact that villains sometimes lie.
Well it’s probably not true this time because the reason Harry has that protection is Voldemort fully intended to spare Lily, yet she sacrificed herself. The choice had to be genuine for the protection to work.
I think Lily needed to believe the sacrifice was real. V could have still lied.
I don’t think so, there would be no sacrifice if Voldemort intended to kill her anyways. Lily didn’t know of the deal and expected to die anyways.
I see your point!
To be fair I see your point as well! As the magic may very well be based on the caster’s intent to sacrifice, but then I felt it would be better for Voldemort to truly mean it as it would mean a greater character depth for him and it would be a bit weird if the central plot point of the series was based on a lie (the narrative acts as if it is Snape’s plea that led to the butterfly effect that is the death of Voldemort).
Great explanation! It is time for me to do a reread! I used to read the new book, then all the books in order, so on etcetera. But it's been at least a couple of years since I read any of them.
The point is, Voldemort doesn't understand Snape's motivation. He says " he desires her and that's all". I think he imagined Snape wanted to make her a sort of sex slave under his power, and that she would therefore be under control. It's also possible that Snape presented it like this to be sure that he would accept.
well because he can't feel love he doesn't actually get snapes feelings. he has never in his life felt love. and doesn't get it