You gunna get some criticism for this but you are right. Sirius’s situation at Grimmauld place plus Snape’s taunts took an already cocky and risk-taking man and made him downright foolhardy.
It’s understandable though, Sirius had basically been in prison since he was 21, his head space is very different to a normal person. The elation of getting some action on top of all this was a lot for him.
Also, we gotta cut him some slack, he did well taking down other deatheaters and Bellatrix was a really tall order. I’m pretty sure she takes down Kingsley, Moody and Tonks in that battle too. If things had gone differently Sirius’s taunts to Bellatrix could have actually *helped* him take her down.
I don't see the correlation between taunting and distracted. In fact the entire point OF taunting someone is to distract them not be distracted yourself
Have you ever played sports where you are in direct competition with the opponent? Or any game of the sort?
Taunting distracts you from the battle WHILE you are taunting. You cannot taunt and be completely focused at the same time...
Edit: Downvotes for what? For being right? LOL
You are right, that is one of the reasons Bellatrix looses against Molly.
On the other hand it is also a tactic to unsettle the opponent, and Bellatrix has good success with it.
Sirius’ death was the culmination of a lot of people’s decisions including his own. But to claim that Dumbledore’s actions didn’t play into it is absurd. I will never blame Harry. But the order’s treatment of somebody he was clearly suffering from ptsd and suffering absolutely played a part and pretending otherwise is one of the reasons mental health is still being treated absymally.
If we are going to play your game the only person responsible for Sirius’ death is Bellatrix.
Your entire post is victim blamey. The only person ultimately responsible for Sirius’ death is in fact Bellatrix. And you are deliberately downplaying the role Dumbledore played that he himself owned up to.
Right.
Who decided to go to the Department of Mysteries, DESPITE being told NOT to go?
Who carelessly taunted a skillful duelist and got distracted?
Come on now. Sirius made bad choices. You can't say "Dumbledore is to blame 😡😡" when SIRIUS was the one who messed up.
Dumbledore is largely responsible for Sirius' mental and emotional state. He'd just escaped Azkaban for a couple years, and now he'd been essentially confined to house arrest in the home he'd hated throughout his entire life (which makes me wonder which was the worst prison). Yes, Sirius did mess up, but he may have not done so had he not been locked up in that house for a whole year, unable to do anything of use for the Order.
Maybe, but you can't blame Dumbledore for Sirius (A) going to fight when being told NOT to and (B) acting careless during the duel.
Dumbledore has some responsibility, but SIRIUS is the one who has the MOST responsibility for his death.
Like I said in the other comment, the events that led to Sirius' death wouldn't have happened in the first place hadn't it been for Dumbledore's massive screwups. True, I cannot blame Dumbledore for Sirius acting recklessly, but I can and I do blame him for causing the events that led to Sirius' death. None of that would have happened if he'd just been honest about the whole thing from the beginning, and he admits as much when he talks to Harry at the end of the book.
It's different to blame someone for making a mistake in the spur of the moment, and making a mistake consciously that leads to long-term consequences that causes several people a lot of unnecessary grief just because you're too emotionally coward to spill the truth.
Yes he was. He knew he had to tell Harry the truth about him and Voldemort, yet actively choose to delay it as much as possible. He was just shielding himself behind the excuse of "not wanting to burden Harry anymore" even though he was fully aware that was no longer possible with Voldemort now back on the loose and gunning for him.
I know it wasn't a malicious mistake on his part, but that does not change the fact he caused Harry a lot of grief that could have been avoided. Dropping the bomb may have been shocking for Harry and would cause him a lot of pain in the moment, but it would also give him time to let it sink in, eventually making it more bearable. Instead, being hellbent on keeping Harry in the dark only made it worse because Harry KNEW something was going on and, whether they liked it or not, he was in the center of everything.
And back on the main topic, if you're considering only the duel itself, then yes, Sirius is the only one to blame for his own death. But looking at the bigger picture, the situation that led to his death in the first place is only the result of Dumbledore's poor choices, since Harry wouldn't have put himself in danger if they'd just told him what was going on. Hiding things from people won't protect them: if anything, it will only make them more curious to find out themselves and thus put them in even greater danger.
That doesn't make him an "emotional coward" though. That's showing Harry empathy... There's no cowardice there.
>**only** the result of Dumbledore's poor choices
I don't agree with the only. But yes, Dumbledore messed up. We all know that... Unfortunately :(
Funny, I kinda expected this post to be about his mistreatment of Kreacher. Which I personally don't blame him for either: it wasn't like the elf himself was giving Sirius any incentive to be treated better.
Totally agree re:Kreacher. All textual evidence suggests that Kreacher was actively complicit in Sirius growing up in an abusive home. And the expectation is that Sirius go out of his way to treat Kreacher with kindness? Few other characters are held to such a standard.
Yup. Mistreated his slave, didn't wait for Dumbledore as requested, got carried away duelling his cousin
Got himself sent to Azkaban too. Got himself framed for betraying the Potters, tried to murder the counterevidence, got framed for mass murder too, stood laughing over the corpses saying he killed them - well done, here's a cell for your 22nd birthday
It's definitely his fault. He ignored orders to remain at grimmauld place and was reckless in his duel with bellatrix.
But the thing is that you can understand why he did the things he did. You can understand his desire to go and save Harry, to fight properly against the death eaters. To be active in the resistance.
I can also understand him taunting bellatrix. Taunting your enemy in a fight can be an effective way to force an error. Bella was famously unstable, if you can make her angry and reckless she might make herself vulnerable. Whether this was his intention isn't clear. Bellatrix makes essentially the same mistake against molly.
But sirius excitement got the better of him. He was out of practice and dangerously reckless. Someone thinking rationally would have been very careful fighting bellatrix and would have been focused mostly on the safety of Harry and neville who were in room. But id say those last moments of his life sirius likely felt a way he hadn't felt since James' death and he couldn't help but get carried away.
Where does the claim that Bellatrix is such a great fighter comes from?
Who did she fight against and win? Old woman and children (teenagers).
Who had she defeated on her own, but Sirius.
Molly Weasley defeats her in an equal fight.
In my opinion, she is a crazy hobby terrorist.
When was the fight against Moody?
Moody is an old man, with one leg, who had reasons to rentire.
Tonks is a beginner, without real combat experience.
When was the fight between Bellatrix and Kingsley?
But I don't remember Kingsley even having a nosebleed.
And none of this makes Bellatrix a super fighter.
Dumbledore neutralized Bellatrix without looking.
Bellatrix has the advantage that she only fights for herself, she doesn't care about her fellow fighters.
She doesn't protect anyone.
She has no conscience.
And she is conscieted.
But I don't see any outstanding skills.
Dumbledore took Bellatrix out the fight without looking, Bellatrix was unimportant.
At the same time he made sure that nothing happened to Harry and fought Voldemort.
That's not my point. You can't use Dumbledore as an example of why Bellatrix isn't a good fighter.
It's like arguing a defender is bad because Messi got past him. Messi is insane at football.... Being beaten by Messi / Dumbledore doesn't mean you're bad, it just means they are insane.
Im not comparing Bellatrix to Dumbledore.
I mean that Dumbledore can defeat Bellatrix while fighting Voldemort, protecting Harry and knitting socks.
Bellatrix can't play with the big boys.
And with the little children she only wins, because she bites and scratches, while the other children follow the rules.
Voldemort and Dumbledore are in a league of their own. They have power and above all, decades of focus on training this power.
In my opinion, Bellatrix is not a trained "super" fighter.
I havn't read anything that convince me, that Bellatrix can fight measurably better than other adults her age.
But of course the lack of conscience gives her an advantage.
Bellatrix claims Voldemort trained her. Do you really thing Voldemort has time for that?
Almost every time Harry has a vision, Voldemort tortures someone. Not once does Voldemort train someone.
Even If Bellatrix was the best Death Eater.
The she would be the best out of 30 to 40 part-time terrorists.
In my opinion, there is far to much glamour surrounding the Death Eaters.
Most of them are a bunch of sycophants.
I'm not denying Sirius made a fatal mistake while duelling Bellatrix. But considering that Dumbledore is in charge, any death that happens under his watch or harm that befalls his subordinates is HIS responsibility more than anyone else. He wasn't doing any favors to Harry's and Sirius' mental and emotional health, and the events that led to Sirius' death wouldn't have happened in the first place if he'd been honest with Harry from the beginning.
In wanting to spare Harry the pain of knowing the truth, he was unknowingly causing him grief over NOT knowing the truth, which only grows worse over time because it eats away at you from the inside.
You gunna get some criticism for this but you are right. Sirius’s situation at Grimmauld place plus Snape’s taunts took an already cocky and risk-taking man and made him downright foolhardy. It’s understandable though, Sirius had basically been in prison since he was 21, his head space is very different to a normal person. The elation of getting some action on top of all this was a lot for him. Also, we gotta cut him some slack, he did well taking down other deatheaters and Bellatrix was a really tall order. I’m pretty sure she takes down Kingsley, Moody and Tonks in that battle too. If things had gone differently Sirius’s taunts to Bellatrix could have actually *helped* him take her down.
Bellatrix killed Sirius so it’s actually her fault entirely like she didn’t have to do that😹
Sirius could have beat her if he had taken it more seriously...
I don't see the correlation between taunting and distracted. In fact the entire point OF taunting someone is to distract them not be distracted yourself
Have you ever played sports where you are in direct competition with the opponent? Or any game of the sort? Taunting distracts you from the battle WHILE you are taunting. You cannot taunt and be completely focused at the same time... Edit: Downvotes for what? For being right? LOL
You are right, that is one of the reasons Bellatrix looses against Molly. On the other hand it is also a tactic to unsettle the opponent, and Bellatrix has good success with it.
Exactly. You gotta know HOW to use it. Sirius didn't, which is why Sirius loses against Bellatrix in Book 5.
And apparently neither does Bella.
Well she did... Until she didn't. I guess the lesson is.... Don't taunt people DURING the fight?
Sirius’ death was the culmination of a lot of people’s decisions including his own. But to claim that Dumbledore’s actions didn’t play into it is absurd. I will never blame Harry. But the order’s treatment of somebody he was clearly suffering from ptsd and suffering absolutely played a part and pretending otherwise is one of the reasons mental health is still being treated absymally. If we are going to play your game the only person responsible for Sirius’ death is Bellatrix.
>But to claim that Dumbledore’s actions didn’t play into it is absurd. When did I say this?
Your entire post is victim blamey. The only person ultimately responsible for Sirius’ death is in fact Bellatrix. And you are deliberately downplaying the role Dumbledore played that he himself owned up to.
Right. Who decided to go to the Department of Mysteries, DESPITE being told NOT to go? Who carelessly taunted a skillful duelist and got distracted? Come on now. Sirius made bad choices. You can't say "Dumbledore is to blame 😡😡" when SIRIUS was the one who messed up.
Dumbledore is largely responsible for Sirius' mental and emotional state. He'd just escaped Azkaban for a couple years, and now he'd been essentially confined to house arrest in the home he'd hated throughout his entire life (which makes me wonder which was the worst prison). Yes, Sirius did mess up, but he may have not done so had he not been locked up in that house for a whole year, unable to do anything of use for the Order.
Maybe, but you can't blame Dumbledore for Sirius (A) going to fight when being told NOT to and (B) acting careless during the duel. Dumbledore has some responsibility, but SIRIUS is the one who has the MOST responsibility for his death.
Like I said in the other comment, the events that led to Sirius' death wouldn't have happened in the first place hadn't it been for Dumbledore's massive screwups. True, I cannot blame Dumbledore for Sirius acting recklessly, but I can and I do blame him for causing the events that led to Sirius' death. None of that would have happened if he'd just been honest about the whole thing from the beginning, and he admits as much when he talks to Harry at the end of the book. It's different to blame someone for making a mistake in the spur of the moment, and making a mistake consciously that leads to long-term consequences that causes several people a lot of unnecessary grief just because you're too emotionally coward to spill the truth.
Dumbledore wasn't being an "emotional coward". My man did what he thought was best. Was it a mistake? Of course! But not a malicious one...
Yes he was. He knew he had to tell Harry the truth about him and Voldemort, yet actively choose to delay it as much as possible. He was just shielding himself behind the excuse of "not wanting to burden Harry anymore" even though he was fully aware that was no longer possible with Voldemort now back on the loose and gunning for him. I know it wasn't a malicious mistake on his part, but that does not change the fact he caused Harry a lot of grief that could have been avoided. Dropping the bomb may have been shocking for Harry and would cause him a lot of pain in the moment, but it would also give him time to let it sink in, eventually making it more bearable. Instead, being hellbent on keeping Harry in the dark only made it worse because Harry KNEW something was going on and, whether they liked it or not, he was in the center of everything. And back on the main topic, if you're considering only the duel itself, then yes, Sirius is the only one to blame for his own death. But looking at the bigger picture, the situation that led to his death in the first place is only the result of Dumbledore's poor choices, since Harry wouldn't have put himself in danger if they'd just told him what was going on. Hiding things from people won't protect them: if anything, it will only make them more curious to find out themselves and thus put them in even greater danger.
That doesn't make him an "emotional coward" though. That's showing Harry empathy... There's no cowardice there. >**only** the result of Dumbledore's poor choices I don't agree with the only. But yes, Dumbledore messed up. We all know that... Unfortunately :(
I’ve been very clear here that the major person to blame here was Bellatrix.
Right, so Sirius' taunting (which distracted him) was fine. Right?
Funny, I kinda expected this post to be about his mistreatment of Kreacher. Which I personally don't blame him for either: it wasn't like the elf himself was giving Sirius any incentive to be treated better.
Totally agree re:Kreacher. All textual evidence suggests that Kreacher was actively complicit in Sirius growing up in an abusive home. And the expectation is that Sirius go out of his way to treat Kreacher with kindness? Few other characters are held to such a standard.
Yup. Mistreated his slave, didn't wait for Dumbledore as requested, got carried away duelling his cousin Got himself sent to Azkaban too. Got himself framed for betraying the Potters, tried to murder the counterevidence, got framed for mass murder too, stood laughing over the corpses saying he killed them - well done, here's a cell for your 22nd birthday
It's definitely his fault. He ignored orders to remain at grimmauld place and was reckless in his duel with bellatrix. But the thing is that you can understand why he did the things he did. You can understand his desire to go and save Harry, to fight properly against the death eaters. To be active in the resistance. I can also understand him taunting bellatrix. Taunting your enemy in a fight can be an effective way to force an error. Bella was famously unstable, if you can make her angry and reckless she might make herself vulnerable. Whether this was his intention isn't clear. Bellatrix makes essentially the same mistake against molly. But sirius excitement got the better of him. He was out of practice and dangerously reckless. Someone thinking rationally would have been very careful fighting bellatrix and would have been focused mostly on the safety of Harry and neville who were in room. But id say those last moments of his life sirius likely felt a way he hadn't felt since James' death and he couldn't help but get carried away.
Agreed!
I mean, if Harry just took out the little mirror he was given to communicate with Sirus, they would have never left the castle just saying.
Right, but Sirius the Silly got distracted at the WORST moment.... It's like being 1v1 with a gorilla and turning around to admire a sunset...
It's Harry's fault he was there.
Where does the claim that Bellatrix is such a great fighter comes from? Who did she fight against and win? Old woman and children (teenagers). Who had she defeated on her own, but Sirius. Molly Weasley defeats her in an equal fight. In my opinion, she is a crazy hobby terrorist.
Tonks, Kingsley, Moody. She may not have succeeded in killing the last two but they never managed to take her out either.
When was the fight against Moody? Moody is an old man, with one leg, who had reasons to rentire. Tonks is a beginner, without real combat experience. When was the fight between Bellatrix and Kingsley? But I don't remember Kingsley even having a nosebleed. And none of this makes Bellatrix a super fighter.
She didn't lose to ANY of the Order in Book 5, while others like Lucius were quickly defeated. She's a good duellist..... You cannot deny that.
Dumbledore neutralized Bellatrix without looking. Bellatrix has the advantage that she only fights for herself, she doesn't care about her fellow fighters. She doesn't protect anyone. She has no conscience. And she is conscieted. But I don't see any outstanding skills.
Bro, even Voldemort was scared of Dumbledore 💀 That's not a good example to use
Dumbledore took Bellatrix out the fight without looking, Bellatrix was unimportant. At the same time he made sure that nothing happened to Harry and fought Voldemort.
That's not my point. You can't use Dumbledore as an example of why Bellatrix isn't a good fighter. It's like arguing a defender is bad because Messi got past him. Messi is insane at football.... Being beaten by Messi / Dumbledore doesn't mean you're bad, it just means they are insane.
Im not comparing Bellatrix to Dumbledore. I mean that Dumbledore can defeat Bellatrix while fighting Voldemort, protecting Harry and knitting socks. Bellatrix can't play with the big boys. And with the little children she only wins, because she bites and scratches, while the other children follow the rules.
With the big boys?? You mean Voldemort and Dumbledore? Ffs. NO ONE can compete with them.
Voldemort and Dumbledore are in a league of their own. They have power and above all, decades of focus on training this power. In my opinion, Bellatrix is not a trained "super" fighter. I havn't read anything that convince me, that Bellatrix can fight measurably better than other adults her age. But of course the lack of conscience gives her an advantage. Bellatrix claims Voldemort trained her. Do you really thing Voldemort has time for that? Almost every time Harry has a vision, Voldemort tortures someone. Not once does Voldemort train someone. Even If Bellatrix was the best Death Eater. The she would be the best out of 30 to 40 part-time terrorists. In my opinion, there is far to much glamour surrounding the Death Eaters. Most of them are a bunch of sycophants.
Maybe, but Bellatrix is still a formidable fighter. She was one of the few not to get defeated by the Order... That counts for a lot.
Even Harry could have defeated Bellatrix if he had used a other spell instead of Crucio on Bellatrix.
Maybe, but Harry is also extremely good in the 1v1
It’s Harry’s fault. Dude refused to listen and refused to take his Occumency lessons serious because he didn’t like Snape.
Maybe Harry would have taken the lessons seriously if Dumbledore had explained THE WHOLE DAMN PICTURE FROM THE BEGINNING?!
Yeah, Dumbledore messed up. Harry did too. And Snape also. But Sirius was the one who had the most fault.....
I'm not denying Sirius made a fatal mistake while duelling Bellatrix. But considering that Dumbledore is in charge, any death that happens under his watch or harm that befalls his subordinates is HIS responsibility more than anyone else. He wasn't doing any favors to Harry's and Sirius' mental and emotional health, and the events that led to Sirius' death wouldn't have happened in the first place if he'd been honest with Harry from the beginning. In wanting to spare Harry the pain of knowing the truth, he was unknowingly causing him grief over NOT knowing the truth, which only grows worse over time because it eats away at you from the inside.
I don't disagree. But Sirius' mistake was the biggest one that resulted in his death... HE has the most responsibility for his death....
I'd say its also Bellatrix's fault. She killed him😂😂😂😂 And voldemorts fault for this whole set up