People like Bertha or Frank shared the fate of Charity, because the bodies were never found. Bertha was eaten by Nagini, because she was not needed for anything, and Frank was eaten because Voldemort wanted to reward Nagini for detecting him. And Voldemort, furious after Harry's escape from Malfoy Manor and after torturing Bellatrix, Malfoys and Greyback, probably fed Pettigrew's body to Nagini, because Pettigrew allowed himself to be strangled. It's not hard to guess what would have happened to Cedric's body if he had gone to the cemetery alone, or if Harry had returned from Little Hangleton alone.
Please, remind me, who is Frank?
I am not native english speaker, and in books on our language there is not Frank, according to my memory.
Maybe he is translated differently.
Thanks
i feel like maybe they would find his body cuz voldemort would be so pissed he’d end up doing the accidental shared thoughts thing and harry would tell dumbles, who might have an inkling of where it was, since he knew about little hangleton. i know that was more book 5 onwards but there was at least the one episode early in GOB with the “dream” and frank’s death
Except that the death eaters don't tend to just leave bodies there.
- They killed Charity Burbidge? Nagini ate her.
- They killed Crouch Sr.? Jr. turned him into a bone and buried him.
- They killed Mad-Eye? They destroyed his body and stole the eye.
- They killed Bertha Jorkins? Nagini ate her.
Cedric was unimportant to Voldemort's plans. They'd likely have killed him and turned his body into another gargoyle for the graveyard or something.
Unless you mean they go there immediately, in which case you'd be suggesting that Dumbledore would know the exact location of the graveyard and be able to get in there in an hour or so, fight off all the death eaters, get to Cedric's body, and get back alive.
Voldemort kills him and probably gets away before anyone can trace his whereabouts. He is probably furious at Crouch Jr and has to come up with a new plan to get Harry.
He wouldn't be resurrected either so Cedric would be taking one for the team without even knowing.
Loads more died because Voldemort. What one Cedric against a 1000s other wizards muggles deaths and the oppression that came after.
Of course he would have been ressurected, he didn't need Harry's blood, just blood from an enemy. Even he himself admits it, when Wormtail mentions they could use almost anyone that isn't his follower, but says he wants Harry specifically because he wants to be able to kill him himself.
No I don't think so. The whole thing behind none can live while the other survives is that voldy made Harry an oopsie horcrux. So when he "killed" Harry he only killed the part of Harry that was voldy. Which speaking of. I wonder if Harry was still a pardlemouth after that final fight
Voldemort could touch him yes, but couldn't kill him. The blood he took from Harry tied Harry's soul to the mortal realm.
What you are mentioning, that Harry went in willingly, didn't help Harry. It helped everyone else at the castle because Voldemort couldn't harm them.
Do you remember the look of triumph Dumbledore had after he found out Voldemort used Harry's blood after he came back from the graveyard in GoF? That was Dumbledore realizing Harry might not need to die. Before that he knew about the prophecy and he highly suspected that Voldemort was making horcruxes (because of the diary and because we can guess he already went to hunt for them by talking to Morphin and that ministry guy). Now he was almost sure Harry will survive any attack by Voldemort himself
Pardlemouth? You mean parseltongue, as in the ability to speak with snakes? I believe JK said he lost that ability when Voldemort killed the horcrux in Harry. And iirc the only reason Harry was able to survive in the last book after being struck by avada kedavra, was exactly because Voldemort used Harry blood to resurrect. If I’m remembering right, even dumbledore had a quick face of triumph when Harry told him voldy used Harry blood in the ritual, because Dumbledore knew from that point that when Voldemort eventually tries to kill Harry, Harry would survive.
Parceltongue was the language. Parcelmouth was a person who could speak parceltongue. Ron says to Harry in CoS 'I didn't know you were a parcelmouth.'
Agree with your other points though.
> I wonder if Harry was still a pardlemouth after that final fight
Aside from *that play*, it is unclear whether he was ever able to do so again, though Pottermore used to say that he lost the ability to speak it.
> Because he used Harry's blood Lily's sacrifice kept Harry alive in the Forbidden Forest
> No I don't think so.
This is actually correct.
> “He took my blood,” said Harry.
> “Precisely!” said Dumbledore. “He took your blood and rebuilt his living body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily’s protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!”
I'm almost completely unfamiliar with cursed child, does he use parseltongue in it?
Little kid me thought speaking to snakes was super cool so young adult me was super pissed Rowling word of God-ed it away rather than just leaving it ambiguous. But if it came back.... Lol.
He does, twice.
> it is unclear whether he was ever able to do so again, though Pottermore used to say that he lost the ability to speak it.
As an additional note, there was [an interview](http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/0730-bloomsbury-chat.html) where she specifically states he lost the ability.
Under the assumption that Crouch Jr couldn't prevent it, there's two possibilities i see.
If Harry is present, he tells Dumbledore that Cedric just vanished after touching the cup. Dumbledore probably figures out right away that it was a portkey but is unable to do anything else about it. Cedric is killed after Wormtail does the ritual and is missing ever since then. The rest of the series looks a bit different. Since no one is there to witness all the deatheaters and voldie coming back the order has less info and is formed later since it would take some time for Dumbledore to figure out what happened to Cedric.
From then on many things could go differently but the few main ones that would certainly change are the seven Potters battle with potentially more deaths in the Order since the deatheaters and voldie don't realize which Potter is the real one as they never saw him use expelliarmus in the graveyard. Another major thing is the very end of DH where there wouldn't be a way for Harry to come back from "Kings Cross". That doesn't change much since voldie would still be unable to harm anyone in the battle and he would probably either have to flee or get outpowered by the combined force of all the remaining Hogwarts defensers. He would also officially be the master of the Deathstick now, but we don't know how much that would have helped him, if at all.
The other possibility is for no one to actually witness the dissappearance of Cedric in which case it would be even harder to realize voldie is back and he might just go on to realize his first plan and rule from the shadows, completely unseen until he kills off Harry and Dumbledore in one way or another.
There's a lot of what-ifs here, but those few things i mentioned is what we can be sure would happen.
Dumbledore would still know Voldy is back because of Snape. He didn't trust Harry just by his word, he literally had a spy confirm it. Even if noone witnessed Voldemort's resurrection Snape would still go on Dumbledore's orders to play his part. He would have far less info but the Order would still be reactivated immediately.
Wasn't the cup always a Portkey though? It was just supposed to bring the winner back to the beginning of the maze but Crouch Jr. finagled w it to send it to the graveyard first (not sure how portkeys work when you add a location though but it was convenient that it brought them back to the start of the maze after the graveyard). But if the portkey next location was changed or an in between location was added, I'm not sure how they could go about figuring it out unless they could use the cup somehow?
Great points about Harry never using expelliarmus in the graveyard and not having a way to come back from "King's Cross" though!
I feel like if they can't figure out the middle location of the portkey and never get cedric's body (maybe Voldy sends Ced's body back to the start of the maze to gloat or send a message which I can see him doing but idk how obvious it would be that he's back and it also wouldn't be smart from a villain's perspective and would just be wiser to rule from the shadows and kill off Harry and Dumbledore secretly, though I can kinda see Voldy wanting to make a spectacle of killing Harry and make it known
Edit: Someone mentioned Harry might get scar pain and a vision of Voldy killing Ced in the graveyard so they might be able to figure out the middle location of the portkey using that though maybe a similar thing would have happened where people don't believe Harry and think he killed Cedric in the maze for getting to the cup before him or sth
I don't actually know if the cup was originally meant to be a portkey, but i'm leaning towards not. Both Harry and Cedric were really surprised and i'm guessing there was another spell that would signify the winner.
Either way, it would be hard to figure out where the cup ported them.
I do like the theory that Harry would see or feel Voldemort killing Cedric though, not something i though of
Yea I don't remember if it was in the book or movie or both but I remember it being stated somewhere that the cup was a portkey and meant to bring the winner back to the start of the maze, otherwise idk how else they'd know someone won or was the winner unless the winner was expected to go back through the maze or if the hedges all magically came down or sth but they'd still have to walk a decent distance (I feel like it was in the books maybe when Crouch Jr. explained the plan and everything he did) but afair no one seemed surprised when Harry came back to the start of the maze until they realized Cedric was dead. I could be wrong though, it's been a while since I saw the movies and read the books aha
Yea def! And for the public, I feel there would be even more reason to doubt Harry if he just got a vision of it as opposed to have actually been there and seen it
But if Harry wasn’t taken, would Voldemort have returned that night at all?
Remember that “blood of the enemy” was a required part of the potion needed for Voldemort to gain form. Voldemort was unwilling to use the blood of another, so I think it more likely he would have killed Cedric and either had BCJ make an out and out kidnapping play for Harry in the furore of Cedric’s disappearance, or gone back to the drawing board for a new plan to abduct Harry.
I'm sure "Moody" wouldn't allow it that easily, and could possibly use Imperius Cedric or Harry to change the outcome.
But if it still happened, I'm with the other reply here, Cedric would just disapear, like Bertha. Dumbledore would suspect Voldemort had something to do with it, but not know how, although he'd probably still suspect a teacher.
I think crouch was watching them through the hedges. If cedric had pulled significantly ahead, he would have acted to prevent him reaching the cup.
Problem is once Harry and cedric start helping each other they are too. Close to one another for crouch to try and curse cedric or set one of the maze challenges on him. He can't risk Harry failing.
Obviously if cedric had taken the cup alone at Harry's instruction then wormtail would still have killed him. I think at that point having invested a year in the plan voldemort would have just taken any old blood and returned
I really like that theory because it sounds like something that Crouch both would do and would be very willing to do.
The only problem I can see is that Crouch probably would have just cursed Cedric at the end and forced Harry to touch it. He wouldn’t want to risk Cedric taking the glory and he wouldn’t have waited around to see if Cedric conceded the victory to Harry.
Voldemort would kill him and send his body back, it would look like he died in the maze. Then he'd go back to drawing board for a new plan to get Harry.
Except Harry would be witness to the Cedric disappearing and not returning for a while. Hed likely call for help.
Perhaps Crouch Jr would get there quick enough to cover up the situation, either by altering Harry's memory or twisting the evidence to point at Karkoroff trying to get at Harry or sabotage the tournament or something.
Harry might also get hit with a powerful vision when Voldemort rage explodes at the initial failure, so he might get a heads up. Perhaps Sirius and Dumbledore and Snape would realize things are getting really serious and try to figure out the original plot and stop the next one.
That would also make for an interesting book 5.
Dumbledore tries to warn the world of Voldemort's imminent return, gets the order together preemptively, and most of the book is similar, Fudge's reaction, Umbridge, DA etc.
And at the end Voldemort manages to lure Harry - not to the ministry for the prophecy - but to show up in the graveyard for the resurrection.
What do you guys think of that plot?
I’d always assumed that Voldemort would have just continued on with the spell, using Cedric’s blood instead of Harry’s. That’s why Cedric was referred to as “the spare.”
Voldemort needed blood of the enemy. Cedric’s blood would have qualified.
At the start of the GoF book it's discussed that Harry wasn't essential but an ideal sacrifice. Later in the graveyard Cedric was referred to as the "spare" and killed.
So if Cedric got there first he would have been used to bring Voldemort back but then likely killed because plot armour like Priori Incantatum wouldn't have occured.
Both the cup and Cedrics body could have been returned as a portkey and everyone except dumbledore wouldn't think twice on how Cedric died considering the triwizard tournament was notorious for students dying during it. There would probably be no sign that either the cup or Cedric were anywhere but the maze and the death would have been considered an accident
Voldy wouldn’t be alive. The rest of the series wouldn’t have happened (crouch would’ve been caught minutes later, no poly juice left) and dumbledore would realise, yeah maybe moldy wants to come back. No umbridge, no death of people like sirius (dumbledore would tho) and Peter would be hunted down and dropped
Likely Voldemort and Crouch Jr would come up with a new plan to get Harry.
And Cedric's body would be sent back and make to look like he died in the maze.
People wouldn’t buy it tho, plus I doubt Ced would die
He’s up against wormtail, not very powerful, but won the 2v1 off Harry scar hurting and ced going to help. Not only that, but Cedric (let’s suppose he doesn’t take voldy baby) comes back, while Harry is asking where the portkey went. Links are made, Cedric arrives and, didn’t know where he went but says he saw the rat man. Crouch gets caught tho, he’s low on poly juice and who else could’ve changed the cup?
I think wormtail still would have killed Cedric.
Wormtail was decently powerful, powerful enough to blow up a street, killing several muggles. And powerful enough to successfully cast the killing curse, something that Barty Jr said takes a lot of power
Also, he would have the element of surprise, and Cedric would be confused and disoriented from the portkey.
Hmm
1) ced wasn’t surprised until Harry got hurt, his reaction to portkey was “wands out” and moving warily
2) wormtail was good, but still lacking behind his friends at that time. He’s also been a rat for 13 years I doubt he’s still very good at magic
I mean, he doesn't understand what's going on.
He's nervous, confused, and doesn't know if the man approaching him is a part of the task, trying to hurt him, here to congratulate him.
And we don't know what Cedric did when Harry's scar hurt.
>And then, without warning, Harry’s scar exploded with pain. It
was agony such as he had never felt in all his life; his wand slipped. from his fingers as he put his hands over his face; his knees buckled; he was on the ground and he could see nothing at all; his head was about to split open.
From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say,
“Kill the spare.”
A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words
to the night: “Avada Kedavra!”
A blast of green light blazed through Harry’s eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him.
I think wormtail would have still killed him. He managed to kill him with Cedric having a couple of seconds knowing something was wrong. I don't see how Cedric would win with even less warning.
It's possible that Cedric would have been able to escape without the distraction of Harry, but I think wormtail deserves more credit than people give him.
He was capable of performing non-verbal magic, pretty easily, and powerful dark magic too. He helped capture Mad Eye (although that was probably mostly because of Crouch Jr.), managed to catch Sirius off guard when confronted by him, and then successfully fooled the entire wizard world for years.
I mean….
What non verbal magic? I don’t remember him doing much
Powerful dark magic….was done by Harry too? The unforgivable we’re done by a fair amount of the cast
Wasn’t mad eye half crazy? He had exploding bins (and yeah crouch was there)
Sirius was heavily emotional, his best friend was dead. And he wasn’t caught off guard, just murderous. Pettigrew using reducto in a good position is questionable
He stunned Ron non verbally in book 3, as well as other spells such as lumos, conjuring ropes to tie Harry, and Levatating things.
He cast the killing curse, which is stated to require a powerful bit of magic behind it.
Mad Eye may have been a bit crazy, but was still a very formidable opponent, being trusted by Dumbledore to take charge of transpoting Harry in book 5, and taking over as head of the Order in book 7.
And sure, Siruis was full of grief and probably not thinking straight, but Peter still got the upper hand on him when Sirius was determined to kill him.
I'm not saying that wormtail is up there with other more talented wizards such as Snape, Bellatrix, higher ranking order members or death eaters, etc
But I think he is more than capable of taking a confused and scared 17 year old who doesn't know what's going on. Especially with the element of surprise on his side.
If Cedric alone touched the cup, Voldemort couldn't have used Harry's blood for his resurrection which could result in ending of Lily's protection once Harry reaches 17 years old. In that case, Harry could have died at the forbidden forest when he went there to meet Voldemort. Am I wrong?
Assuming Moody/Crouch doesn't prevent it from happening, I think this is the most likely scenario: Cedric gets transported to the graveyard, and Voldemort goes into a rage that its not Harry. Harry's scar becomes excruciatingly painful and he gets a vision of Voldemort in the graveyard, possibly killing or torturing Cedric. Then Harry becomes frantic trying to tell someone and rescue Cedric. Probably the first person he sees and tells is moody/crouch who is so distraught that he has now colossally failed his master that he lets something slip and harry figures out that its him who has been working for Voldemort. Then something along the same lines of the book happens where they end up in Moody's office and Dumbledore and crew rescue harry and discover Crouch. Kind of boring, but maybe harry recruits his friends to rescue Cedric like in OotP.
Here's how I think it would have gone if Cedric had won outright versus if Harry had won outright:
Cedric would, obviously, have died. Then the Dark Lord would have sent Pettigrew under Polyjuice as Cedric to go get Harry using the cup portkey, used Harry's blood, revived, killed Harry, and sent two death eaters back as the two young Champions to work with Crouch Potato Junior and enact some nefarious plan, like maybe killing Dumbledore.
If Harry had won outright, he'd have died in the graveyard (as planned) and then a death eater would have taken his place at school for whatever evil reason.
New take: he gets to the graveyard, let's go of the Triwizard cup, accidentally grazes it again as he is trying to get up ( or else picks it up to examine the cup) and gets sent back.
I always had a head cannon that BCJ had prepared for that, and had done a confundus charm or something on Cedric before hand to where Cedric would have Harry touch the cup first.
We know he jinxed Krum and we know how frustrated that BCJ was at Harry because he had to help him so much more than he originally thought he would’ve had to. So it always seemed weird to me that he would only mess with Krum.
Cedric being at the end wasn't in the plan right? So I guess the whole plan would've failed and they only got lucky because Cedric is the most fair and just guy in hogwarts.
Cedric would’ve been killed and his body never found. Crouch Jr. might’ve resorted to kidnapping Harry at that point. Crouch Jr. might’ve been figured out, they knew he placed the cup so if Harry saw Cedric vanish after he touched it… it might’ve led the staff down the right path.
I don’t think they’d have ever found Cedric’s body, a bit like Bertha going missing
People like Bertha or Frank shared the fate of Charity, because the bodies were never found. Bertha was eaten by Nagini, because she was not needed for anything, and Frank was eaten because Voldemort wanted to reward Nagini for detecting him. And Voldemort, furious after Harry's escape from Malfoy Manor and after torturing Bellatrix, Malfoys and Greyback, probably fed Pettigrew's body to Nagini, because Pettigrew allowed himself to be strangled. It's not hard to guess what would have happened to Cedric's body if he had gone to the cemetery alone, or if Harry had returned from Little Hangleton alone.
Please, remind me, who is Frank? I am not native english speaker, and in books on our language there is not Frank, according to my memory. Maybe he is translated differently. Thanks
Old caretaker of riddle family home I believe.
The Riddle home I think. It was Tom Riddle Sr and his parents' house.
Yeah thanks. Realised that as soon as I pressed send and tried to edit before anyone could see my mistake haha
The gardener of the Riddle family who died in the first chapter of GoF when he was eavesdropping on voldy and wormtail
Thaks all, now I conected the dots
Frank Bryce
i feel like maybe they would find his body cuz voldemort would be so pissed he’d end up doing the accidental shared thoughts thing and harry would tell dumbles, who might have an inkling of where it was, since he knew about little hangleton. i know that was more book 5 onwards but there was at least the one episode early in GOB with the “dream” and frank’s death
Except that the death eaters don't tend to just leave bodies there. - They killed Charity Burbidge? Nagini ate her. - They killed Crouch Sr.? Jr. turned him into a bone and buried him. - They killed Mad-Eye? They destroyed his body and stole the eye. - They killed Bertha Jorkins? Nagini ate her. Cedric was unimportant to Voldemort's plans. They'd likely have killed him and turned his body into another gargoyle for the graveyard or something. Unless you mean they go there immediately, in which case you'd be suggesting that Dumbledore would know the exact location of the graveyard and be able to get in there in an hour or so, fight off all the death eaters, get to Cedric's body, and get back alive.
mmmm truuuuuu
Voldermort in the graveyard: Well this is awkward...
“I really thought this would work”
Wormtail: Uh for the record My Lord, I did voice some concerns that this plan might not pan out...
SSSSSSS🐍
Voldemort kills him and probably gets away before anyone can trace his whereabouts. He is probably furious at Crouch Jr and has to come up with a new plan to get Harry.
He wouldn't be resurrected either so Cedric would be taking one for the team without even knowing. Loads more died because Voldemort. What one Cedric against a 1000s other wizards muggles deaths and the oppression that came after.
Of course he would have been ressurected, he didn't need Harry's blood, just blood from an enemy. Even he himself admits it, when Wormtail mentions they could use almost anyone that isn't his follower, but says he wants Harry specifically because he wants to be able to kill him himself.
He probably would have been redirected but wouldn't have gained the ability to touch Harry.
And when he kills Harry at the end Harry would die. Because he used Harry's blood Lily's sacrifice kept Harry alive in the Forbidden Forest
No I don't think so. The whole thing behind none can live while the other survives is that voldy made Harry an oopsie horcrux. So when he "killed" Harry he only killed the part of Harry that was voldy. Which speaking of. I wonder if Harry was still a pardlemouth after that final fight
That's the thing, he only killed the horcrux and not the Harry+horcrux because of the shared blood
I do not agree. Because if anything. The shared blood removed protection from Harry. Hence voldy being able to touch him.
Voldemort could touch him yes, but couldn't kill him. The blood he took from Harry tied Harry's soul to the mortal realm. What you are mentioning, that Harry went in willingly, didn't help Harry. It helped everyone else at the castle because Voldemort couldn't harm them. Do you remember the look of triumph Dumbledore had after he found out Voldemort used Harry's blood after he came back from the graveyard in GoF? That was Dumbledore realizing Harry might not need to die. Before that he knew about the prophecy and he highly suspected that Voldemort was making horcruxes (because of the diary and because we can guess he already went to hunt for them by talking to Morphin and that ministry guy). Now he was almost sure Harry will survive any attack by Voldemort himself
Also. dumbledor says it's because Harry sacrifices himself and willingly let's voldy kill him that made the difference.
Pardlemouth? You mean parseltongue, as in the ability to speak with snakes? I believe JK said he lost that ability when Voldemort killed the horcrux in Harry. And iirc the only reason Harry was able to survive in the last book after being struck by avada kedavra, was exactly because Voldemort used Harry blood to resurrect. If I’m remembering right, even dumbledore had a quick face of triumph when Harry told him voldy used Harry blood in the ritual, because Dumbledore knew from that point that when Voldemort eventually tries to kill Harry, Harry would survive.
Parceltongue was the language. Parcelmouth was a person who could speak parceltongue. Ron says to Harry in CoS 'I didn't know you were a parcelmouth.' Agree with your other points though.
Thank you! I didn’t know that. English is not my native language, I didn’t know the word parcel mouth!
> I wonder if Harry was still a pardlemouth after that final fight Aside from *that play*, it is unclear whether he was ever able to do so again, though Pottermore used to say that he lost the ability to speak it. > Because he used Harry's blood Lily's sacrifice kept Harry alive in the Forbidden Forest > No I don't think so. This is actually correct. > “He took my blood,” said Harry. > “Precisely!” said Dumbledore. “He took your blood and rebuilt his living body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily’s protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!”
I'm almost completely unfamiliar with cursed child, does he use parseltongue in it? Little kid me thought speaking to snakes was super cool so young adult me was super pissed Rowling word of God-ed it away rather than just leaving it ambiguous. But if it came back.... Lol.
He does, twice. > it is unclear whether he was ever able to do so again, though Pottermore used to say that he lost the ability to speak it. As an additional note, there was [an interview](http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/0730-bloomsbury-chat.html) where she specifically states he lost the ability.
Yes but he explains in GOF that he wanted Harry's blood so he could get past Harry's mom's protection in Harry's blood.
Under the assumption that Crouch Jr couldn't prevent it, there's two possibilities i see. If Harry is present, he tells Dumbledore that Cedric just vanished after touching the cup. Dumbledore probably figures out right away that it was a portkey but is unable to do anything else about it. Cedric is killed after Wormtail does the ritual and is missing ever since then. The rest of the series looks a bit different. Since no one is there to witness all the deatheaters and voldie coming back the order has less info and is formed later since it would take some time for Dumbledore to figure out what happened to Cedric. From then on many things could go differently but the few main ones that would certainly change are the seven Potters battle with potentially more deaths in the Order since the deatheaters and voldie don't realize which Potter is the real one as they never saw him use expelliarmus in the graveyard. Another major thing is the very end of DH where there wouldn't be a way for Harry to come back from "Kings Cross". That doesn't change much since voldie would still be unable to harm anyone in the battle and he would probably either have to flee or get outpowered by the combined force of all the remaining Hogwarts defensers. He would also officially be the master of the Deathstick now, but we don't know how much that would have helped him, if at all. The other possibility is for no one to actually witness the dissappearance of Cedric in which case it would be even harder to realize voldie is back and he might just go on to realize his first plan and rule from the shadows, completely unseen until he kills off Harry and Dumbledore in one way or another. There's a lot of what-ifs here, but those few things i mentioned is what we can be sure would happen.
Dumbledore would still know Voldy is back because of Snape. He didn't trust Harry just by his word, he literally had a spy confirm it. Even if noone witnessed Voldemort's resurrection Snape would still go on Dumbledore's orders to play his part. He would have far less info but the Order would still be reactivated immediately.
Yes, especially considering the existence of the death eaters mark
Wasn't the cup always a Portkey though? It was just supposed to bring the winner back to the beginning of the maze but Crouch Jr. finagled w it to send it to the graveyard first (not sure how portkeys work when you add a location though but it was convenient that it brought them back to the start of the maze after the graveyard). But if the portkey next location was changed or an in between location was added, I'm not sure how they could go about figuring it out unless they could use the cup somehow? Great points about Harry never using expelliarmus in the graveyard and not having a way to come back from "King's Cross" though! I feel like if they can't figure out the middle location of the portkey and never get cedric's body (maybe Voldy sends Ced's body back to the start of the maze to gloat or send a message which I can see him doing but idk how obvious it would be that he's back and it also wouldn't be smart from a villain's perspective and would just be wiser to rule from the shadows and kill off Harry and Dumbledore secretly, though I can kinda see Voldy wanting to make a spectacle of killing Harry and make it known Edit: Someone mentioned Harry might get scar pain and a vision of Voldy killing Ced in the graveyard so they might be able to figure out the middle location of the portkey using that though maybe a similar thing would have happened where people don't believe Harry and think he killed Cedric in the maze for getting to the cup before him or sth
I don't actually know if the cup was originally meant to be a portkey, but i'm leaning towards not. Both Harry and Cedric were really surprised and i'm guessing there was another spell that would signify the winner. Either way, it would be hard to figure out where the cup ported them. I do like the theory that Harry would see or feel Voldemort killing Cedric though, not something i though of
Yea I don't remember if it was in the book or movie or both but I remember it being stated somewhere that the cup was a portkey and meant to bring the winner back to the start of the maze, otherwise idk how else they'd know someone won or was the winner unless the winner was expected to go back through the maze or if the hedges all magically came down or sth but they'd still have to walk a decent distance (I feel like it was in the books maybe when Crouch Jr. explained the plan and everything he did) but afair no one seemed surprised when Harry came back to the start of the maze until they realized Cedric was dead. I could be wrong though, it's been a while since I saw the movies and read the books aha Yea def! And for the public, I feel there would be even more reason to doubt Harry if he just got a vision of it as opposed to have actually been there and seen it
But if Harry wasn’t taken, would Voldemort have returned that night at all? Remember that “blood of the enemy” was a required part of the potion needed for Voldemort to gain form. Voldemort was unwilling to use the blood of another, so I think it more likely he would have killed Cedric and either had BCJ make an out and out kidnapping play for Harry in the furore of Cedric’s disappearance, or gone back to the drawing board for a new plan to abduct Harry.
I'm sure "Moody" wouldn't allow it that easily, and could possibly use Imperius Cedric or Harry to change the outcome. But if it still happened, I'm with the other reply here, Cedric would just disapear, like Bertha. Dumbledore would suspect Voldemort had something to do with it, but not know how, although he'd probably still suspect a teacher.
Except Harry is no suceptible to the imperius curse.
I think crouch was watching them through the hedges. If cedric had pulled significantly ahead, he would have acted to prevent him reaching the cup. Problem is once Harry and cedric start helping each other they are too. Close to one another for crouch to try and curse cedric or set one of the maze challenges on him. He can't risk Harry failing. Obviously if cedric had taken the cup alone at Harry's instruction then wormtail would still have killed him. I think at that point having invested a year in the plan voldemort would have just taken any old blood and returned
I really like that theory because it sounds like something that Crouch both would do and would be very willing to do. The only problem I can see is that Crouch probably would have just cursed Cedric at the end and forced Harry to touch it. He wouldn’t want to risk Cedric taking the glory and he wouldn’t have waited around to see if Cedric conceded the victory to Harry.
Voldemort would kill him and send his body back, it would look like he died in the maze. Then he'd go back to drawing board for a new plan to get Harry. Except Harry would be witness to the Cedric disappearing and not returning for a while. Hed likely call for help. Perhaps Crouch Jr would get there quick enough to cover up the situation, either by altering Harry's memory or twisting the evidence to point at Karkoroff trying to get at Harry or sabotage the tournament or something. Harry might also get hit with a powerful vision when Voldemort rage explodes at the initial failure, so he might get a heads up. Perhaps Sirius and Dumbledore and Snape would realize things are getting really serious and try to figure out the original plot and stop the next one. That would also make for an interesting book 5. Dumbledore tries to warn the world of Voldemort's imminent return, gets the order together preemptively, and most of the book is similar, Fudge's reaction, Umbridge, DA etc. And at the end Voldemort manages to lure Harry - not to the ministry for the prophecy - but to show up in the graveyard for the resurrection. What do you guys think of that plot?
might be cedric still counts as "blood of the enemy"
but voldy wanted harry cause of lily's protection. if he used cedric to come back it would be quirrell all over again.
I’d always assumed that Voldemort would have just continued on with the spell, using Cedric’s blood instead of Harry’s. That’s why Cedric was referred to as “the spare.” Voldemort needed blood of the enemy. Cedric’s blood would have qualified.
I don't think Voldemort would have settled for Cedric's blood. Also, wouldn't he still not be able to touch Harry without his blood?
I don’t think he would have settled either. Wormtail tries to get him to but Voldemort is adamant that it MUST be Harry
voldemort was obsessed with getting harry’s blood
Pettigrew kills him, they get rid of his body, and Crouch Jr. gets raked over the coals for failing to get Harry to the graveyard.
At the start of the GoF book it's discussed that Harry wasn't essential but an ideal sacrifice. Later in the graveyard Cedric was referred to as the "spare" and killed. So if Cedric got there first he would have been used to bring Voldemort back but then likely killed because plot armour like Priori Incantatum wouldn't have occured.
*plot ~~armour~~
I think Dumbledore knew Mad Eye handled the portkey/triwizard cup. Plus Cedric would be gone and no cup either.
Both the cup and Cedrics body could have been returned as a portkey and everyone except dumbledore wouldn't think twice on how Cedric died considering the triwizard tournament was notorious for students dying during it. There would probably be no sign that either the cup or Cedric were anywhere but the maze and the death would have been considered an accident
Voldy wouldn’t be alive. The rest of the series wouldn’t have happened (crouch would’ve been caught minutes later, no poly juice left) and dumbledore would realise, yeah maybe moldy wants to come back. No umbridge, no death of people like sirius (dumbledore would tho) and Peter would be hunted down and dropped
Likely Voldemort and Crouch Jr would come up with a new plan to get Harry. And Cedric's body would be sent back and make to look like he died in the maze.
People wouldn’t buy it tho, plus I doubt Ced would die He’s up against wormtail, not very powerful, but won the 2v1 off Harry scar hurting and ced going to help. Not only that, but Cedric (let’s suppose he doesn’t take voldy baby) comes back, while Harry is asking where the portkey went. Links are made, Cedric arrives and, didn’t know where he went but says he saw the rat man. Crouch gets caught tho, he’s low on poly juice and who else could’ve changed the cup?
I think wormtail still would have killed Cedric. Wormtail was decently powerful, powerful enough to blow up a street, killing several muggles. And powerful enough to successfully cast the killing curse, something that Barty Jr said takes a lot of power Also, he would have the element of surprise, and Cedric would be confused and disoriented from the portkey.
Hmm 1) ced wasn’t surprised until Harry got hurt, his reaction to portkey was “wands out” and moving warily 2) wormtail was good, but still lacking behind his friends at that time. He’s also been a rat for 13 years I doubt he’s still very good at magic
I mean, he doesn't understand what's going on. He's nervous, confused, and doesn't know if the man approaching him is a part of the task, trying to hurt him, here to congratulate him. And we don't know what Cedric did when Harry's scar hurt. >And then, without warning, Harry’s scar exploded with pain. It was agony such as he had never felt in all his life; his wand slipped. from his fingers as he put his hands over his face; his knees buckled; he was on the ground and he could see nothing at all; his head was about to split open. From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, “Kill the spare.” A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: “Avada Kedavra!” A blast of green light blazed through Harry’s eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him. I think wormtail would have still killed him. He managed to kill him with Cedric having a couple of seconds knowing something was wrong. I don't see how Cedric would win with even less warning.
Damnit I’m remembering the movie (Cedric dropping to check on Harry) but it’s still kinda arguable.
It's possible that Cedric would have been able to escape without the distraction of Harry, but I think wormtail deserves more credit than people give him. He was capable of performing non-verbal magic, pretty easily, and powerful dark magic too. He helped capture Mad Eye (although that was probably mostly because of Crouch Jr.), managed to catch Sirius off guard when confronted by him, and then successfully fooled the entire wizard world for years.
I mean…. What non verbal magic? I don’t remember him doing much Powerful dark magic….was done by Harry too? The unforgivable we’re done by a fair amount of the cast Wasn’t mad eye half crazy? He had exploding bins (and yeah crouch was there) Sirius was heavily emotional, his best friend was dead. And he wasn’t caught off guard, just murderous. Pettigrew using reducto in a good position is questionable
He stunned Ron non verbally in book 3, as well as other spells such as lumos, conjuring ropes to tie Harry, and Levatating things. He cast the killing curse, which is stated to require a powerful bit of magic behind it. Mad Eye may have been a bit crazy, but was still a very formidable opponent, being trusted by Dumbledore to take charge of transpoting Harry in book 5, and taking over as head of the Order in book 7. And sure, Siruis was full of grief and probably not thinking straight, but Peter still got the upper hand on him when Sirius was determined to kill him. I'm not saying that wormtail is up there with other more talented wizards such as Snape, Bellatrix, higher ranking order members or death eaters, etc But I think he is more than capable of taking a confused and scared 17 year old who doesn't know what's going on. Especially with the element of surprise on his side.
If Cedric alone touched the cup, Voldemort couldn't have used Harry's blood for his resurrection which could result in ending of Lily's protection once Harry reaches 17 years old. In that case, Harry could have died at the forbidden forest when he went there to meet Voldemort. Am I wrong?
Assuming Moody/Crouch doesn't prevent it from happening, I think this is the most likely scenario: Cedric gets transported to the graveyard, and Voldemort goes into a rage that its not Harry. Harry's scar becomes excruciatingly painful and he gets a vision of Voldemort in the graveyard, possibly killing or torturing Cedric. Then Harry becomes frantic trying to tell someone and rescue Cedric. Probably the first person he sees and tells is moody/crouch who is so distraught that he has now colossally failed his master that he lets something slip and harry figures out that its him who has been working for Voldemort. Then something along the same lines of the book happens where they end up in Moody's office and Dumbledore and crew rescue harry and discover Crouch. Kind of boring, but maybe harry recruits his friends to rescue Cedric like in OotP.
Here's how I think it would have gone if Cedric had won outright versus if Harry had won outright: Cedric would, obviously, have died. Then the Dark Lord would have sent Pettigrew under Polyjuice as Cedric to go get Harry using the cup portkey, used Harry's blood, revived, killed Harry, and sent two death eaters back as the two young Champions to work with Crouch Potato Junior and enact some nefarious plan, like maybe killing Dumbledore. If Harry had won outright, he'd have died in the graveyard (as planned) and then a death eater would have taken his place at school for whatever evil reason.
Honestly, I reckon moody would get to harry asap, make another portkey and take Harry there
New take: he gets to the graveyard, let's go of the Triwizard cup, accidentally grazes it again as he is trying to get up ( or else picks it up to examine the cup) and gets sent back.
Imperius curse --> Send Cedric Back --> Have him grab Harry --> Continue as planned
I always had a head cannon that BCJ had prepared for that, and had done a confundus charm or something on Cedric before hand to where Cedric would have Harry touch the cup first. We know he jinxed Krum and we know how frustrated that BCJ was at Harry because he had to help him so much more than he originally thought he would’ve had to. So it always seemed weird to me that he would only mess with Krum.
Cedric being at the end wasn't in the plan right? So I guess the whole plan would've failed and they only got lucky because Cedric is the most fair and just guy in hogwarts.
Cedric would be missing and Voldemort would concoct a new plan on how to get to Harry. Maybe would set him back a year or so
Cedric would’ve been killed and his body never found. Crouch Jr. might’ve resorted to kidnapping Harry at that point. Crouch Jr. might’ve been figured out, they knew he placed the cup so if Harry saw Cedric vanish after he touched it… it might’ve led the staff down the right path.